NationStates Jolt Archive

News reports abound today with the report that Rep. Conyers (D), Ohio, is planning to challenge Ohio's slate of electors when the electoral votes are tallied in Congress tomorrow. He must have the signature of one Senator, most likely Barbara Boxer (D), California. Have the Dems finally gone off the deep end, just challenging to make a political point, or are there real concerns about Ohio's election results? Link:

Challenge Ohio Electors (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/)

It's worth a debate at the least...

Come on, he won the popular vote by 3,000,000, won Ohio by 120,000, and voting irregularities could be found in many states, including PA, where Philadelphia most certainly jiggered the results for Kerry. Every election could be contested if Ohio's irregularities were the only grounds. It should only be done under extreme circumstances. I think the Dems are just trying to delegitimize this election.

Meh!

Both sides cheat so hey why not?

Look at them. If the Demos are blowing hot air, a recount with the same victory only makes them look bad.

If like in Washington, there were valid votes tossed, then the Repubs look bad.

A republican dominated Congress is going to make sure the shrub remains.....

Meh!

Both sides cheat so hey why not?

Look at them. If the Demos are blowing hot air, a recount with the same victory only makes them look bad.

If like in Washington, there were valid votes tossed, then the Repubs look bad.

A republican dominated Congress is going to make sure the shrub remains.....
It won't come to a recount. The rules for this procedure allow debate in both houses for up to two hours. Both houses must vote to reject the electors before proceeding. The Dems know they'll lose; they are just making political hay.

Look at them. If the Demos are blowing hot air, a recount with the same victory only makes them look bad.

They didn't learn after two recounts with the same result in 2000, so why would they now?

*awaits flammage*

News reports abound today with the report that Rep. Conyers (D), Ohio, is planning to challenge Ohio's slate of electors when the electoral votes are tallied in Congress tomorrow. He must have the signature of one Senator, most likely Barbara Boxer (D), California. Have the Dems finally gone off the deep end, just challenging to make a political point, or are there real concerns about Ohio's election results? Link:

Challenge Ohio Electors (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6210240/)

Partly it's a response to the last election, wherein someone certainly should have had the cajones to speak up and protest, but didn't.

On another level, there do seem to be odd occurances going on, considering the wide discrepancy between exit polls in Ohio and the eventual official tally. Whether or not other places also have election irregularities is irrelevant: if it is a democracy, then what harm can come from making sure the people's will has been heard? A few million dollars is a small price to pay for certainty.

Partly it's a response to the last election, wherein someone certainly should have had the cajones to speak up and protest, but didn't.

On another level, there do seem to be odd occurances going on, considering the wide discrepancy between exit polls in Ohio and the eventual official tally. Whether or not other places also have election irregularities is irrelevant: if it is a democracy, then what harm can come from making sure the people's will has been heard? A few million dollars is a small price to pay for certainty.
Washington State's Democrats sure don't want to spare that few million dollars for a new governor's election, in which some of the votes in heavily Republican counties that could not be counted because they were already certified would be counted, along with the "found" ballots in heavily Democratic King County, which gave them the governor's office by 150 votes.

Bump

Washington State's Democrats sure don't want to spare that few million dollars for a new governor's election, in which some of the votes in heavily Republican counties that could not be counted because they were already certified would be counted, along with the "found" ballots in heavily Democratic King County, which gave them the governor's office by 150 votes.

Then the Democrats in this instance were wrong. What's your point?

Then the Democrats in this instance were wrong. What's your point?
There have been "odd occurrences" in every election, many worse than in this, some much worse. Several states had even closer elections, but no one is challenging their electors. I think it denigrates the American Democratic process, and sets a dangerous precedent, that every time someone doesn't like the results, they can manufacture real and imagined reasons to call the election into question.
By the way, I hope they do challenge it. I believe it will further isolate them from mainstream America, and will show just how completely out of touch they are. To quote a famous liberal PAC, "MoveOn", for God's sake!

I got this email from John Kerry:

Dear James,

No American citizen should wake up the morning after the election and worry their vote wasn't counted. No citizen should be denied at the polls if they are eligible to vote. And, as the greatest, wealthiest nation on earth, our citizens should never be forced to vote on old, unaccountable and non transparent voting machines from companies controlled by partisan activists.

Tomorrow, members of Congress will meet to certify the results of the 2004 presidential election. I will not be taking part in a formal protest of the Ohio Electors.

Despite widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote, our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.

But, that does not mean we should abandon our commitment to addressing those problems that happened in Ohio. We must act today to make sure they never happen again.

I urge you to join me in using this occasion to highlight our demand that Congress commit itself this year to reforming the electoral system. A Presidential election is a national federal election but we have different standards in different states for casting and counting votes. We need a national federal standard to solve the problems that occurred in the 2004 election. I will propose legislation to help achieve this.

Florida 2000 was a wake up call. But the Republicans who control Congress ignored it. Will they now ignore what happened in 2004?

There are nearly 3,000,000 of you receiving this email. We accomplished so much together during the campaign. Now let's use our power to make sure that at least one good thing comes from the voting rights problems of the 2004 election. If we want to force real action on election reform, we've got to demand that congressional leaders hold full hearings. Make sure they hear from you and help hold them accountable.

Speaker Dennis Hastert: 1-202-225-0600
Leader Bill Frist: 1-202-224-3135

On another level, there do seem to be odd occurances going on, considering the wide discrepancy between exit polls in Ohio and the eventual official tally. Whether or not other places also have election irregularities is irrelevant: if it is a democracy, then what harm can come from making sure the people's will has been heard? A few million dollars is a small price to pay for certainty.
The exit polls seem to have been a disaster. Apparently the exit polls called South Carolina a toss-up; in fact, Bush won 58%-41%. I wouldn't even want to spend a few THOUSAND dollars based on their results, let alone a few million.

For more from a Democrat pollster (http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/09/about_mystery_p.html) on the fact that the network exit polls have skewed pro-Democrat in every presidential election since 1990, quoting from information publicly available prior to the 2004 election, see Have the Exit Polls Been Wrong Before? (http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/have_the_exit_p.html)

Of course, the Republicans could have stolen votes in every Presidential election since 1990. But if so, they sure did a bad job of determining how many votes that they would need to manufacture in 1992 and 1996, didn't they?

Look to the Democrats in the Washington state governor's race to see the right way to manufacture votes. With every recount that they lost, they "found" more ballots in King County, until they finally "found" enough votes for their candidate to win -- and then they immediately opposed any further recount activity.

I got this email from John Kerry:
I got the same email. I like to keep an eye on the competition! :D

Washington State's Democrats sure don't want to spare that few million dollars for a new governor's election, in which some of the votes in heavily Republican counties that could not be counted because they were already certified would be counted, along with the "found" ballots in heavily Democratic King County, which gave them the governor's office by 150 votes.

Hmmm the "Republican" secretary blessed the recount did he not?

Hmmm the "Republican" secretary blessed the recount did he not?
Not sure about that one. Source?

Not sure about that one. Source?

It was a news ticker tape blip on CNN, I think.

Didn't follow the whole process so take my comment with a grain of salt.....

I just followed it by listening to NPR on the way home everyday (yes, a conservative that listens to NPR). As I understand it, the votes in King County were counted in after all the other counties had already certified their votes, thus perpetuating the same kind of thing Al Gore tried to do in Florida by cherry-picking heavily Democratic counties for votes.

There's only one solution: investigate.

If they find nothing then all's fair.

If they find something then heads should roll for undermining democracy.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must think that there is something to be found. If you think there is nothing to be found then why do you fear an investigation?

Let them look.

There's only one solution: investigate.

If they find nothing then all's fair.

If they find something then heads should roll for undermining democracy.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must think that there is something to be found. If you think there is nothing to be found then why do you fear an investigation?

Let them look.
I don't particularly fear an investigation. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I hope they do go forward with their plan to challenge the Ohio electoral votes; I think it will make them appear as sore losers and lose them even more votes. However, where does this stop? Do we drop everything anytime anyone questions anything? It becomes a nightmare of unending court challenges, investigations, etc, anytime someone just doesn't like losing. I don't believe lawyers should be in charge of elections.

I just followed it by listening to NPR on the way home everyday (yes, a conservative that listens to NPR). As I understand it, the votes in King County were counted in after all the other counties had already certified their votes, thus perpetuating the same kind of thing Al Gore tried to do in Florida by cherry-picking heavily Democratic counties for votes.

Yup both sides do crap like that.

You had Al trying to cherry pick while ol' Jeb was tossing legal black democrat voters by "mistake" with the prison vote validator system they have.

What was interesting was listening to a few guys complain they went to vote and told they couldn't because they were ex-cons. Guess Jeb forgot to send them a note......

Yup both sides do crap like that.

You had Al trying to cherry pick while ol' Jeb was tossing legal black democrat voters by "mistake" with the prison vote validator system they have.

What was interesting was listening to a few guys complain they went to vote and told they couldn't because they were ex-cons. Guess Jeb forgot to send them a note......
And don't forget the Dem lawyers that targeted the military absentee ballots for disqualification.

I don't particularly fear an investigation. As I said in one of my earlier posts, I hope they do go forward with their plan to challenge the Ohio electoral votes; I think it will make them appear as sore losers and lose them even more votes. However, where does this stop? Do we drop everything anytime anyone questions anything? It becomes a nightmare of unending court challenges, investigations, etc, anytime someone just doesn't like losing. I don't believe lawyers should be in charge of elections.

I believe your argument falls under the 'slippery slope' fallacy.

If anything, regardless of the investigation's results it will only strenghten the country. If no wrongs are found: everyone is satisfied with the outcome and the bickering will stop. If wrong is found: the assholes will pay and the US will be a stronger country because of it (no one is going to jump to the defense of such a class of person).

And don't forget the Dem lawyers that targeted the military absentee ballots for disqualification.
Link?

(That and the 'found' ballots, do show me evidence that the Dem's made them up please)

I believe your argument falls under the 'slippery slope' fallacy.

If anything, regardless of the investigation's results it will only strenghten the country. If no wrongs are found: everyone is satisfied with the outcome and the bickering will stop. If wrong is found: the assholes will pay and the US will be a stronger country because of it (no one is going to jump to the defense of such a class of person).
Why is that a "fallacy"? Seems like this is the same pattern with less reason than the 2000 election. I could see an election won by a landslide in 2008 challenged out of pure spite if this continues.