NationStates Jolt Archive

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.

I've never met a Mormon I didn't like.

Never met a mormon in my life, so i don't know what the fuss is about.

But from what I've been told, mormons apparently brainwash their followers into undying loyalty... but nowadays I feel people are too stupid to even be brainwashed...

I've only met one that I know of and he was kind of annoying. I wouldn't say I hate him though. And I doubt it had much to do with him being a Mormon.

Then again, I really don't know much about the Mormons. Is it part of their religion to be kind of annoying? Because that would suck. I still wouldn't really hate them for it, that's kind of strong. I'd just be more, you know, annoyed with them.

Although it's a rather silly idea to think a religion would direct its followers to be annoying to others. That really seems like it wouldn't have much of a purpose at all.

Unless it's to get others to join their faith, if only to stop them from being annoying. Maybe they're like those carnival game operators that yell things at you to get you to play their game.

But no, that would be rather silly. And I've never heard of a Mormon carnival.

I myself do not dislike Mormons. They are just as agreeable as any other person, reguardless of religion.

However, I believe the animosity you percieve of is the mistaken disapproval of a modern religion.

You see, being that the Book of Mormon was supposedly written by Joseph Smith sometime after 1820, it makes for a very unconvincing "scripture".

Not to mention that much of the Book of Mormon historically has been borrowed, is false, or has been falsely been borrowed.

This is not an attack on the Church of Latter Day Saints at all. Merely a statement of fact.

Also, one must take in to consideration the bias that the Mormons had to face in a country where, though the foundation of the Unitet States was for equality, nearly everyone was (and is) Christian in one form or another.

Sadly, this dissaproval for Mormans is no less justifiable than any other religion.

If you would like to know more highlighting the history and problem with Mormonism, please feel free to visit this website (http://www.whatismormonism.com/) .

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.

Not everyone hates mormons. Why generalize?

Why do people hate blacks? Why do people hate gays? Why bother attempting to justify the unjustifiable? Some people are bias, plain and simple.

i know a few mormons... my mormon friend told me all bout her religion last night... i just... i don't hate them.. they are misguided....

I have absolutely no reason to hate any Mormon. But they are annoying when they try to convert you. And they try all too often.

Mormons eat babies raw.

I mean, come on, people... Learn to cook.

I don't hate Mormons.

I think that they are more to be pitied than scorned.

I honestly consider their view of the world to be one of the most bizarre I've ever heard.

For example, an angel gives you books from God written on tablets of gold. What do you do? Lose them.. yep, that's just the sort of thing you'd misplace alright ...

The American Indians being a lost tribe of Israel...is kinda surprising given the genetics, archaeology and anthropolgy all laugh at such a suggestion.

Not hateful, just weird.

No hate just confusion. My friend took me to one of their....congregations? I had to go with the kids. They told us to draw daddy. So I drew a mailman, they got angry. I also bought coffee beforehand, I hear that's a no-no. Thought I would share this will all of you NS'ers out there :D

I've never met a Mormon I didn't like.
I have... but that was cause he was a jerk and not because he was mormon.

Until I started studying, I lived in Berlin. There's usually a mormon or two with their name tag riding the various vehicles of public transportation. Some of the craziest people I've met are mormon... but then again the others were Canadian.

Hmm. I don't know any Mormans personally. A couple of young Morman fellows came by my house on bicycles years ago. They were alright guys. Didn't try to pressure me or anything, just talked for about half an hour gave me a book and rode away :)

Eh I'm not sure people do. One of my best friends is Mormon and she's lovely as are her family. I've even gone to chruch with her and gone on some of the outings her chruch organises. It is a very interesting religion. I think with that guy in Utah having so many wives puts people off. As does the whole donating money to the chruch, now I know the Morman chruch does have a welfare system but because of these donations any Morman families I have ever meet with the execption of 2, have been very poor. I know money isn't every thing. The missions that ye guys go on do cause a bit of a stir, its very annoying to have ppl constantly calling to your door and even sometimes putting their foot in the door when you go to close it. I don't agree with the very strict policy that girls should cover up, not show their shoulders. I know most don't follow it but still. Each to their own. The bad press just comes from one or two freaks.

Baptism of the Dead! Goddamned Baptism of the Dead! The one single thing that can have me frothing at the mouth in pure rage with only words!

Leaving pictures of Jesus in my mail, accosting me on my way to school, and coming to my home to attempt to convert me don't help either.

i know alot of mormons. in fact my boyfriend is one. My sisters preach to me that there religion is wrong. and all this other stuff. people believe all tis stuff about them that is not true. they believe in jesus just like chriastians really the only differnce is that they hfave the book of mormon. I dont see why jesus couldnt have come to the americas. he travled every where else. really what proof do we have that he didnt.

Oddly enough, a friend and I were discussing this earlier. I've never met a Mormon, but I don't see why I should dislike them any more than any other person. I dislike people who annoy me, I think most people would, and for my part I dislike having other's beliefs pushed in my face, as I have none myself. But as long as that didn't happen, I'm sure I'd like them.

I've met several mormons, all of whom were nice people and were not crazy or insane. That goes for most religious groups.

The only two mormons I have ever met were two guys who came knocking at my door to share their faith. I told them I was an atheist and they went away. I can't say I hate them, but they did interrupt me for no good reason.

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.

They hate us cuz we're hot and sexy.

At least...I am.

And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.
From my former psycho mormon neighbour.

It's not Mormons I don't like. It's stupid people who won't leave me alone. This includes parts of virtually every group in existence today.

It's not Mormons I don't like. It's stupid people who won't leave me alone. This includes parts of virtually every group in existence today.
Those Jehova bastards still owe me a free Bible.

It's not Mormons I don't like. It's stupid people who won't leave me alone. This includes parts of virtually every group in existence today.

Especially dem darn NS forumers :p

i don't hate mormons. i met one last year and he was alright. he didnt talk about his religion or pressure me to convert, he just mentioned that he was mormon. i am an atheist and think all religions are a joke, i dont hate mormons but just wonder why they believe in their religion. the idea of some guy finding gold plates in missouri that have lost parts of the bible sounds like something out of a bad movie. and the stuff about indians actaully being the decendants of people in isreal sounds like a load of crap. how could you honestly believe that? nobody else ever saw the plates, if they were real, he probably would have shown someone. i think he was just some average guy looking for fame. i don't care what religion you believe, thats your personal choice and i wouldnt judge someone for their religion. believe what you want and think whatever you want and if you like, say what you think, thats the beauty of freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

Because they wake me up too early in the morning!!!

Just kidding, I don't hate Mormons - although they did try their damndest to keep my aunt from getting a job.

I just dont like the fact they wont take no for an answer, they keep coming to my door!

::knock knock:: "Hi would you like to know about the mormon religion?" "No thank you I would not."

next day

:knock knock: "Hi would you like to know about the mormon religion?" "Um I already said no thank you."

this continues for several days

::knock knock:: "Hi wou-" "No go the fuck away!"

They're nice enough as individuals, but the Moromon practice of finding their ancestor's burial sites and carrying out post-mortem baptismal rituals freaks me OUT.

To quote my philsophy teacher when told (falsely) one of his students was a Mormon: "Thats fine. You're just wrong, is all." The way he said it was so deadpan it made me burst out laughing.

This about sums up my feelings on them - except for the fundamentalist Mormons, who really freak me out. Those people... they scare me. The inbreeding, the polygamy, the brainwashing (seriously) - it all makes me very glad that I don't live in Utah.

To quote my philsophy teacher when told (falsely) one of his students was a Mormon: "Thats fine. You're just wrong, is all." The way he said it was so deadpan it made me burst out laughing.

This about sums up my feelings on them - except for the fundamentalist Mormons, who really freak me out. Those people... they scare me. The inbreeding, the polygamy, the brainwashing (seriously) - it all makes me very glad that I don't live in Utah.
Ok, inbreeding is bad, but what's wrong with polygamy?

I used to be a mormon. I left 7 years ago, me and my family. It's not that I hate the people who are mormons, I just strongly disagree with their religion. Women are treated very badly in some cases, questions are looked down upon, anyone who leaves the church has sided with the devil. Don't tell me that these things aren't true because I lived them. At one point my mother had five jobs in the church and when she asked to drop some everyone made her feel guilty because "it was the lord's intention to put her there". If that was the Lord's intention then obviously he doesn't care much about his "children". When she started asking questions about the bible and the history she was called into the Bishop's office. He basically told her that she was doing a horrible thing because she was questioning the church. At one point my mother was very sick, and instead of letting my dad stay home with her they guilt-tripped him into coming to a meeting. When we finally got fed-up and left most of the people who had been our "friends" stopped talking to us because we were "consorting with the devil". My great-aunt (also a mormon) disowned us. She won't even touch us any more. Guess the devil cooties might rub off on her.

No, I'm not saying all Mormons are bad. I know a girl at my school who's mormon and she's very sweet. But most of their religion has to do with control and fear, which, in my opinion, is not the way to worship "god".

No, I'm not saying all Mormons are bad. I know a girl at my school who's mormon and she's very sweet. But most of their religion has to do with control and fear, which, in my opinion, is not the way to worship "god".

"Control and fear" haven't been my experiences at all.

i've never met a mormon. around here we tend to complain about the jehovah's witnesses, cuz they come to your house and try to convert you and they're annoying. my parents have warned me to never let them actually come inside, cuz they won't leave. so when they come we say we'll look at their pamphlets and then say goodbye.
one time i actually read one. it was useless. didnt explain the religion, i was disappointed.
as for why ppl hate mormons, they probably don't understand the religion, or are familiar with the mormon churches that are like the ones described by someone above that demean women, don't accept questioning, etc.

Powerhungry Chipmunks, that's wonderful. But I have been in a mormon church, attended for seven years, and that was what my particular church was like. There may be exceptions, which is great.

My experience was, however, that if you do something wrong or ask questions, you get in trouble. So know one does because they're afraid. Fear. Secondly, you have to do what the church tells you or you're not being faithful to God anymore. Control by fear.

I shouldn't have generalized. I'm sorry. Each experience their own. But we can be sure that at least one Mormon church does those things.

To quote my philsophy teacher when told (falsely) one of his students was a Mormon: "Thats fine. You're just wrong, is all." The way he said it was so deadpan it made me burst out laughing.

This about sums up my feelings on them - except for the fundamentalist Mormons, who really freak me out. Those people... they scare me. The inbreeding, the polygamy, the brainwashing (seriously) - it all makes me very glad that I don't live in Utah.

From what I've been told, Utah is great to live in, as long as you are not a non-Mormon female who happens to have more education than many of the men around you and smokes. Oh yeah, don't be Native American either.

Mormons are SO much cooler than regular Christians since the reject the notion of Hell.

From what I've been told, Utah is great to live in, as long as you are not a non-Mormon female who happens to have more education than many of the men around you and smokes. Oh yeah, don't be Native American either.

I take it "what you've heard" is grousing from a democrat native american woman who smokes. Just a guess.

I take it "what you've heard" is grousing from a democrat native american woman who smokes. Just a guess.

No, it is from a part Native American, generally Republican woman who smokes and was virtually locked out of employment in Salt Lake City (as well as hearing many statements about "Those damn Indians" - usually just after her being berated for how poorly blacks are treated in the South). She actually had to lie on her resume (taking qualifications off, not adding them on) to get a job.

I don't hate Mormons. I know a lot of Mormons. In fact, friends of the family, I even call them Aunt Cathy and Uncle Jess, are Mormon. Some of the nicest people I know.

See, what my view is, that the whole Mormon thing is Jesus went to the natives of the Americas after he was resurrected to teach the faith. A lot of mainstream Christainty is like: "That can't happen?!" But on the other hand, he was the Son of God (if thats what your faith prescribes), so, anything is possible, however, we know histroically, the Aztecs, Mayas, Incas, ect., never write any account.

I dunno. Maybe because I'm the Catholic raised Buddhists.... (thats a wierd combo, ain't it?)

And yeah, its an impratical fear/bias that people have towards them. But then people have thee same fear towards the Jews and others...

Like I said, some of the nicest people I've meet in my life have been from the Church of the Latter Day Saints through my (adopted) Aunt and Uncle.

Besides, to me, it doesn't matter what your faith is, it doesn't even matter if you have faith, as long as your a good person, respectful and are fun to hang around.

Life is too short for impratical fears, bias, and racism.

[QUOTE=Uldaedia]My experience was, however, that if you do something wrong or ask questions, you get in trouble. So know one does because they're afraid. Fear. Secondly, you have to do what the church tells you or you're not being faithful to God anymore. Control by fear. QUOTE]

Catholicism is the same way, ask a question, you're a heretic. Don't folow the rules, you're going to Hell. Thats why I like reading and practicing Buddhism, because one of the principles philosophies: ASK QUESTIONS!

I have nothing wrong with Morman people, I just think their religion is misguided and controlling

I have a morman friend who would wake up at 4:30 for religious classes every morning. I also think the whole proxy baptism is a little strange and rude to the dead, and the idea that the Native Americans are a lost tribe of Israel is absurd. Additionally, they're way too conservative for my liking.

I don't hate mormons theyare misgiuded in their faith they say theiy are christains but they aren't

The Amish will rule the world soon!!! You'll see!!! Heil Amman!!!
AMISH POWER!!! AMISH POWER!!!
AMISH POWER!!! AMISH POWER!!!
AMISH POWER!!! AMISH POWER!!!

I've known a few Mormons, and they were really, really good people. The two I got on best with also "disagreed" with the Mormon Church but kept it quiet, lest they be denounced as Heretics and excommunicated from everyone they knew.

I can't claim to speak from a position of knowledge or experience here, but as someone else already said, the Mormon Scriptures sounds like it belongs in an Ed Wood movie in many respects- Finding magic gold plates and then losing them? Indians being a Lost Tribe of Israel? Baptising the dead?

I'm not a religious person, and I make a point of respecting everyone's Religious Beliefs, with two exceptions: The Mormons, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

I won't say they're both "Wrong", but they certainly seem to be, uh, misguided, for want of a better word.

Which reminds me... did anyone else see that South Park Episode where the Mormons moved in down the street from Stan? One of the funniest things I've seen in ages... :D

i know alot of mormons. in fact my boyfriend is one. My sisters preach to me that there religion is wrong. and all this other stuff. people believe all tis stuff about them that is not true. they believe in jesus just like chriastians really the only differnce is that they hfave the book of mormon. I dont see why jesus couldnt have come to the americas. he travled every where else. really what proof do we have that he didnt.
he travelled everywhere else??

Catholicism is the same way, ask a question, you're a heretic. Don't folow the rules, you're going to Hell. Thats why I like reading and practicing Buddhism, because one of the principles philosophies: ASK QUESTIONS!

Go Buddhism! Love those people. So totally cool. Ah, Questions! My idea of a religion!

Wow, you guys seem a much more rational group than most. Thank you everybody for keeping this civil. Know the next questoin... Why do people hate Brussel Sprouts? I personally find them delicous.

Jelousy. Blondes really do have more fun.

You know, with going to Tabernacles and singing in choirs and what not.

Who the heck told you people hate Mormons? Nobody hates Mormons. You would have to consider them to hate them. People hate paranoids. Please stop being so paranoid.

And the elderly. People hate the elderly

A lot of it has to do with Heresy. Protestants and Catholics can bicker back and forth about their disputes, but at least they're close. At least there's some common ground.

Polygamy? Not cool. Very bad. Very sinful. And yet it's portrayed as being condoned by a religious institution. Lots of other things fit here too. Like the whole lost tribes of Israel stuff. Very strange, very heretical.

Think of your favorite rock band, like the Beatles or something. Now think how you would feel if Pete Best (the drummer before Ringo and fame) came along right after the Beatles split up, and started touring as the Official Beatle. It would drive you crazy, right? Now how about if it was about stuff MUCH more important than music?

I know people are going to say people hate Mormons because they're the Other. They're different. The more you know. Because knowledge is power. Etc. Etc. But man. Polygamy? Come on. Converting people after their dead? Yikes. All in the name of Jesus.

my mom and my stepdad are both mormon, i was raised mormon. i'm glad i don't have to go to 3 boring hours of church a week anymore. but mormons are nice in general. I don't think the mormon religion is any more crazy than any other christian religion. they're just about the same level of crazy. well not like jehova's witnesses (sp?) they are annoying when they come to your door. but to get to my point, i've never met anyone who hates mormons who isn't a little stupid.

"People" don't hate Mormons. Only limited specific INDIVIDUALS do. Don't generalize, as it's only a very limited bunch. The Mormons I've met have all been decent, regardless of whether I've agreed with their religious views.

Why do mormons hate gays?


You see, I don't hate mormons, I just hate their faith. Then again, I hate every faith, but theirs I hate even more.

LOL! I skimmed over the post w/out my reading glasses on and thought the thread was "Why do people hate Morons?"

The Mormons I've met have been very nice people, though some of them have struck me as being a bit peculiar. Being different never was a crime though (not in this country at least).

The Amish will rule the world soon!!! You'll see!!! Heil Amman!!!
AMISH POWER!!! AMISH POWER!!!
AMISH POWER!!! AMISH POWER!!!
AMISH POWER!!! AMISH POWER!!!

No, soon Boony will rule the world and he doesn't believe in hell, or heaven, or god, or relgion, or any of that related stuff actually.

To get back to the point, I don't hate mormons, but I really don't appreciate being woken up hungover on a Saturday morning by doorknockers looking for a conversion. If you want to believe in the Mormon religion that's fine, but I don't. I don't think you'd appreciate me trying to convert you to my particular atheistic views.

If you want to believe in the Mormon religion that's fine, but I don't. I don't think you'd appreciate me trying to convert you to my particular atheistic views.
Exactly; I have no problems with Mormon people per se, I just don't like their attempts to convert me. To be fair, though, they generally come round with the Watchtower and leave it at that, whereas Jehovah's Witnesses would erect a tent in my garden in order to try and convert me every time I opened the door if they thought they could get away with it. No problem with them per se either, but I let them get on with believing as they wish and therefore expect the same courtesy in return.

Mind you, the same thoughts apply to other Christian faiths too...

Easy, because morons suck.

they do not suck. and i would hate to be amish no technolgy that would be horrible.

Mind you, the same thoughts apply to other Christian faiths too...

I personally have no problems with Mormon people. However, the religion itself leads to question. I would under no stretch of the imagination consider it a "Christian faith" because if you honestly look at it, it isn't.

they are chriastians.

Now, I personally don't "hate" any people, or even dislike someone's character until I've met them. But if anyone's pissed at LDS, maybe it has something to do with racism in the Book of Mormon?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/mormon/mormon34.html

And there's people who subscribe to this anti-christian ideology, even to this day (1996):

"The Book of Mormon identifies "Lamanites" as ancestors of the American Indians; it calls for the conversion of Lamanites (Native Americans) and predicts that they will become "white and delightsome." Mormons have been separating Native American families as a means of proselytizing since the 1840s. Between 1954 and 1996, the Mormon church participated in the placement of 70,000 native children into Mormon homes as a part of the effort to turn native children "white and delightsome," defying the Indian Child Welfare Act of 1978, meant to curb the cultural genocide evident in the adoption of Native children by non-Native families. "

Same reason to "hate" the activities of Pat Robertson or any other proselytizing bigot, from any faith tradition, I suppose.

My views:
Heinous whack-job fundies of any tradition :headbang:
Compassionate peoples of any tradition :fluffle:

they are chriastians.
I wish they were Christians, but I really don't think the teachings of the CJCLDS can be described as Christian.
Like the bit where they say that Jesus and Satan both presented their salvation plans to God, and God chose Jesus's plan, so Jesus became God's Son.
Things like that don't agree with the New Testament.

Its stupid to hate someone because of their religious views even if they conflict with your own.

Its stupid to hate someone because of their religious views even if they conflict with your own.
Now this has little or nothing to do with mormons, but what if the other guy's religious views make him see you (a nonbeliver) as lower than an animal? Is it ok to hate him then?

Now this has little or nothing to do with mormons, but what if the other guy's religious views make him see you (a nonbeliver) as lower than an animal? Is it ok to hate him then?

Good question. I think I'd have to lean towards hating someone like that.

Now this has little or nothing to do with mormons, but what if the other guy's religious views make him see you (a nonbeliver) as lower than an animal? Is it ok to hate him then?
Wow what religion is that? I'm glad you said nothing to do with Mormons(note its Church of Jesus Christ of Laterday Saints ie LDS) because we don't think so.
And no just pity him if he treats you lower than a animal because its not right.

I wish they were Christians, but I really don't think the teachings of the CJCLDS can be described as Christian.
Like the bit where they say that Jesus and Satan both presented their salvation plans to God, and God chose Jesus's plan, so Jesus became God's Son.
Things like that don't agree with the New Testament.
where does it say that they both presented there plans? i have been studying it and gone to the church and i havent heard that said. what i really hate is when someone tries to shove information that you know is not true about momons down there throught. im not saying you are but there are other people out there that do that. They consider them selves christians. I have to admint the church is a little long but i like it. what really gets me is that my foster mom had her brother who is a preacher preach agianst the mormons and said that they all go to hell. well how do we know that for sure you know. we cant make god judgment only god can. and i really dont want to think that my boyfriend is going to hell.
and what is cjlds?

where does it say that they both presented there plans? i have been studying it and gone to the church and i havent heard that said. what i really hate is when someone tries to shove information that you know is not true about momons down there throught. im not saying you are but there are other people out there that do that. They consider them selves christians. I have to admint the church is a little long but i like it. what really gets me is that my foster mom had her brother who is a preacher preach agianst the mormons and said that they all go to hell. well how do we know that for sure you know. we cant make god judgment only god can. and i really dont want to think that my boyfriend is going to hell.
and what is cjlds?
(C) Church of (J)Jesus (C) Christ of (L) Latter (D) Day (S) Saints. We perfer LDS.

Here in Connecticut, we have very few Mormons. I've known a few in my travels, and they're generally a good bunch. No better nor worse than anyone else. They still have to answer for the Osmonds, though.

We *do* have Jehovah's Witnesses though, whom I tend to speak with from time to time after they knock upon my door. After about an hour, they tend to figure out that this Roman Catholic techno-infidel with a couple of degrees in History isn't about to be converted. :D

(C) Church of (J)Jesus (C) Christ of (L) Latter (D) Day (S) Saints. We perfer LDS.
lysergic diethylamide acid?

lysergic diethylamide acid?
Have you seen that Star Trek 4 scene in which Capt. Kirk mixes the two acronyms up? That's the funniest thing I've ever seen in a Star Trek movie.

why should religeon make people hate each other

Have you seen that Star Trek 4 scene in which Capt. Kirk mixes the two acronyms up? That's the funniest thing I've ever seen in a Star Trek movie.
Can't say I did.

why should religeon make people hate each other
When two separate groups each claim exclusive access to divine truth and disagree on what that divine truth is there's bound to be conflict.

They consider them selves christians.

The original Christians considered themselves Jewish, but no one else seemed to see it that way.

Generally, when a new prophet/leader/religious text comes along, you have created a new religion. It may be based in the old one (as Christianity is in Judaism), but it has added on to the old religion and formed a construct of its own.

(C) Church of (J)Jesus (C) Christ of (L) Latter (D) Day (S) Saints. We perfer LDS.
thank you i have never heard it that way before. it is nice to see that there are other mormons. The father already had everything planed out. So he had a family council with all of us there, his children. He told us that he was going to create a earth for us all to come down to earth to gain a body and be more like the father. Like most councils, there is time for everyone to give their input. The first was Jesus Christ, the first born. His plan is what all christian now know. That someone should come down and be a sacrifice to redeem all mankind. Then spoke up Satan, the second born. His plan was to send himself to the world to direct peoples lives so that they would lead perfect lives and return to the father. This sounds okay exept it gets rid of our free will and gives glory to Satan and not God. And Jesus plan gloryfied God and not Jesus himself. Jesus plan gave us our free will to chose what we belived in whether or not it be God or something/someone else. God plan was simliar to Jesus's plan.

You should hate mormons because...I SAID SO!

Amish would lose so bad in a army battle it is not funny. Muslims,Jews and christians can find more common ground than Every christian denomination and Mormons. There was a massive war between God and Morning Star because he was ticked that humans would get freewill . Of course my definition of hell is much deferent . Here it is
Guy:So this is hell , doesn't seem like it.
Satan:I said the same thing
Guy :Anything to do?
Satan:When good said he was sending me to hell he meant sending me to the most boring as hell place.
Hell is seperation from god.

When I was in Middle and High School my best friend was a member of the LDS. Even though I was a Lutheran they were always welcoming and kind. My friend had seven brothers and sisters and since I didn't I always thought that was neat. They were so nice to each other and I never saw them argue or disagree, unlike my family. Their father was a bishop and he even made their own clothes and undergarments by hand... That takes some talent! They never tried to pressure me with conversion, but they gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon and their two other holy books The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price. I studied their books and they were happy to help me understand what the "True Church" taught. They even answered the big question I had... If Joesph Smith practiced polygamy and said it was from God how come it isn't anymore? Their answer was basically that when Joseph Smith practiced polygamy he was misguided and new truths have been revealed since that time making polygamy wrong. My friend eventually moved back to Utah to prepare for his mission, but I studied enough LDS materials with him to summarize some of their basic beliefs.

The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration.
We need prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament.
The Book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible.
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
There are many gods.
There is a mother goddess.
God used to be a man on another planet.
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god.
God the Father had a Father.
God resides near a star called Kolob, Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35.
God the Father has a body of flesh and bones, Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22.
God is in the form of a man.
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children.
We were first born as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth.
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus.
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence,".
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both.
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god."
God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus.
- This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Brigham Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins.
Good works are necessary for salvation.
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God.
Baptism for the dead. - This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial.
The Holy Spirit is a male person.

This is just a portion of what I learned from my friend and his family. There were more truths that I was not taught because I would not attend their church (I couldn't sit in a church for 2 hours or more). Since I am not LDS I may not understand the complexities of their faith or how it relates to their bigger picture, but I wanted to share what they taught me. My friend and his family were very nice people and definitely more righteous than I am. However, from what I studied during my upbringing in the Lutheran Church; LDS teachings conflict with modern Protestant Christianity on almost every biblical issue. When you read the Book of Mormon you will see that the LDS are not Christian in the sense they would like to be thought of or tell others that they are.

At least I hope that is it. Yeah, I am a Mormon. And a lot of the psycho stuff you hear is just not true or evry misunderstood. Some of it isn't though, and you can think it is weird if you want! But just make sure you get your facts straight, you know? A few that have been mentioned...

They practice polygamy - FALSE. Back in the day (like over a hundred years ago) we did. People that do it now are KICKED OUT of the church... that Sicko in the news, Green(?)... yeah, NOT COOL... the dude should get all that is coming to him. I have a dad and a mom... that is IT. (and one bro and one sister)

They don't drink, smoke, or drink coffee or tea - TRUE. If that bugs you about us, fine. You can drink whatever you want... I just choose not to.

They are brainwashed - HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Okay, whatever. hee hee!

They believe in Angles and current Prophets - TRUE. No appologies for that one.

They eat people - TRUE... okay, that's crap, but it made me laugh.

THey Baptize Dead People!!! - ummm GROSS. NO. We do baptisms FOR the dead. Basically, we are baptized in place of our ancestors who never had the chance. We do a lot of geneolgy to look for our ansestors and have family trees and such. That is the whole gravesite thing... you can find info THERE, Ellis Island records, etc.

They all wear name tags - FALSE. MISSIONARIES for the church wear nametags and go around teaching about our beliefs. I did that myself for a year and a half. Regular members of the church probably look just like you and you probably all know some but don't know it. They are the type of neighbors that probably brought over a casserole when you were sick or maybe your kid goes to karate class with their kids... You don't know because, hey this is our religion, it is our faith in Jesus Christ... but we are just people. There are dumb mormons, smart mormons, nice mormons, jerky mormons, pushy mormons, funny mormons.

Anyway, there are a million other things said about us but I am going to bed. I don't really frequent this board, so if you have anything you want to ask or verify or whatever, feel free to email me, but it is 1:45 am, I started Water Aerobics today (WORN OUT!), I just got home from a party, and I need to go to bed. Goodnight!

I don't hate them. I don't think I've ever talked to one that I know of.


What bugs me about certain religions is that they make their followers go out and try to convert new members. To me that feels like an evil pyramid scheme not (only? sometimes?) for money, but for the morals and minds of people.
What annoys me even more is the religions who preach that their way is the only right way.

as an atheist, i think you should all study the mormom church closely. what agneau and cleveland new texas said is true. mormons believe things that no other christian group believes and they are generally nice people no better or worse than any other group you might name (dont name the mafia *smack*)

so why study them? when you read the history of the church and the things they believe you will say "who could believe that crap?" (my apologies to the mormons reading this for saying it so harshly)

they believe it because they were TAUGHT it. most of them from birth, some from being converted.

JUST LIKE YOU.

if their religion is crap why isnt YOURS? because the stories are older? because whoever wrote YOUR book wasnt born in the USA? you have been taught things that are patently absurd. just like they have. so why is your religion true and theirs not?

no the reason they don't practice polygamy anymore is because it is outlawed

Cobb,

While polygamy IS illegal, and it is true that as Mormons we are taught to "sustain, honor, and obey the laws of the land" the decission to dissallow polygamy was a church decision as well. There are plenty of people who still practice polygamy, and certainly if the LDS church had wanted to the practice might have continued anyway. But the Lord told them to stop and that anyone who did that further was to be kicked out of the church. ANyway, I probably didn't explain that that well... but I tell you one thing, if polygamy became legal again (which I think would be a horrible mistake due to the propensity for abuse in those situations!) I doubt my life and faith would not change one iota. I would not marry into a situation like that, nor would my dad randomly decide to marry some other lady besides my mom. Anyway, hope that clarified my position a bit.

they are chriastians.

They may say they are, but if you look at the belief system. THEY ARE NOT. Would you like me to prove it to you?

what is a Christian?
Well the word itself means "follower of Christ". True Mormons believe in Jesus, however, they do not believe in him as a savior. They believe that he was able to reach a form deism and thus conquer death the Mormon goal.

True Mormons believe in Jesus, however, they do not believe in him as a savior.

Who told you that true Mormons do not believe Jesus Christ is our Savior? Were it not for Christ, the only begotten of the Father, we would all be damned! He is the only way to return to the Father. He atoned for us so that we might be ressurected (concuring death) and made it possible that we might repent of our sins and be forgiven! (concuring sin) What greater Savior could there be, Top?

twhy do to you really dont have any idea what you are saying you should shut up.

I've got no problem with Mormons, I know quite a few, and they're generally really nice people. I don't agree with their religion, but that's true for any religious group. The whole post-mortem conversion bit is slightly freaky, but it doesn't happen here, so that's alright.

To end, if I can't date by the time the Mormons I know can, I'll be pissed.

I don't hate Mormons, persay, but I do have some issues with the tenets of their religion, some of which to be frank seem rather ridiculus. The only times I have issues with Mormons themselves is when they try to solicite me. That only happened once though, while I was in Idaho.

No problem with them


ive only met one morman, didnt like her, but that was cause i didnt like her. I made the desicion i didnt like he r before i found out her faith (so sayjng that that did not influence my choice)

I live in NY, so i dont get anybody trying to convert me, not so many mormans in long island NY (at least i dont think so...:confused: )

Well, I don't know about any of you, but I hate everyone. but in my blackened little heart, I have a special place reserved for those mormons and witnesses, because they dare bother me in the middle of my satanic rituals!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH whatever

I think brussel sprouts are gross...lol

I don't hate anyone, there are people i dislike, but religion has absolutely nothing to do with it. I think it's a sign of ignorance to hate somone simply because of their belief system, cultural background, sexual orientation, etc. I think that people should be able to believe in whatever they want, live their lives however they see fit, as long as they don't hurt anyone else. Mormons have only come to my door once, and they were not pushy or overbearing at all. They simply asked me if i had read the book of Mormon, i said no, they then asked if i wanted to, i said no, they then told me they hoped i would consider it sometime, and they left. None have come to my door since. It's the Jehovas Witnesses who come to my door constantly and try to convert me. As for the whole polygamy thing, i don't actually have a problem with polygamy or bigamy as long as all the parties consent. My problem with it regarding the mormon religion, is that when it was legal, it was only men who were allowed to have mulitiple spouses, women weren't. I think both sexes should be able to have that choice, as they do in Tibet. There are Tibetan men and women who practice polygamy.

I study and read about Buddhism too, it is the philosophy that most aligns with my belief system.

Mormons are genarly good people. i am thinking about converting. i havnt yet i was raised as a methodist and i have some trouble under standing some of what they believe. my boyfriend is a mormon and that helps. and no i am n ot converting because of him i had my mind made up before then he is a bonus. but he was the one who explained the thing with the plans. have any of you that have been dissing on the religion acutally known a mormon and got to know there family? or ask them and here it from someone who knows and not from some one who doesnt. there reliogen has values that are above and beyond what some expect

EXACTLY, Lilminions. If I was investigating the Buhdist Religion I would talk to people who had lived that religion, not it's enemies. I know how it feels to be frustrated when everybodytells you "Oh, ya'll believe THIS..." instead of seeing what it is *I* believe. ANyway, good luck on your study of the faith... don't take ANYBODY'S word on it, not mine, not people here, not your boyfriend... find out for yourself. It is between you and God. Nobody else can tell you what to do. Remember that.

My college roommate was brought up in a Mormon household. Neither of us are devoutly religious even though the famlies we came from are. I'm Roman Catholic. We're laid back, so we take turns mocking the other's religion.

So, I don't hate Mormons, though I do think their religion is a bit wacky. Have you seen the Mormon South Park episode with Gary? According to my roommate, everything was actually accurate right down to the tophat.

:sniper: Met many in my life, all were racists.

Now, I'm LDS , I can say it, but only for the belief system.

Pearl of Great Price, I'm telling you right now, may be the single most controversial piece of Mormon history that is still doctrine.

For you see, where most get their arguments from are souces such as the Journal of Discourses, WHICH IS NOT AN OFFICIAL church doctrine.

Going past the illogical histories, etc., even possible racism (not going there), the structured life it preaches is top notch. We should want to serve others. We need to get rid of alcoholism, coffee, tobacco.

I would say that even though you all hate the LDS missionaries, you must realize that this is their opportunity to be out in the world, to be tested for the first time. College is most often this time for others, but you can freak yourself up during Spring Break.

So, the missionary experience is a metamorphosis of these individuals.

Generally though, when people try to disprove LDS, I can usually use similar arguments on their church (namely mainstream religion. But that is not a conversation for 1:03 in the A.M.)

Good night...

I don't hate Mormons.

I think that they are more to be pitied than scorned.

I honestly consider their view of the world to be one of the most bizarre I've ever heard.

For example, an angel gives you books from God written on tablets of gold. What do you do? Lose them.. yep, that's just the sort of thing you'd misplace alright ...

The American Indians being a lost tribe of Israel...is kinda surprising given the genetics, archaeology and anthropolgy all laugh at such a suggestion.

Not hateful, just weird.

Actually they don't believe that Native Americans are Israeli descendants rather that Native Americans wiped out an Israeli tribe in North America. All the same I agree with you, their beliefs are a bit weird and their founder is a bit racist if you ask me.

As for liking Mormons, the ones I've met are quite nice actually. There's been American ones at my door who are pleasant up until you inform them about your religion (I'm a Muslim btw), then they make an excuse to go and run as fast as they can away from you :(

I hate them because they killed and ate my sister.

No, wait, that was bears.

I guess I don't mind Mormons. I really hate bears, though.

I hate them because they killed and ate my sister.

No, wait, that was bears.

I guess I don't mind Mormons. I really hate bears, though.
Same … oh wait maybe it was wallabies

I really hate wallabies

My guess is that people see Mormons as either being a "fake" religion since it came about fairly recently (19th century if I recall my history correctly), or as having views that other people find excessively moralistic.

I've been nervous about dealing with people from a lot of different religious background in general because of the intolerance a lot of religions have toward homosexuality. I've seen some examples of families from Mormon backgrounds (admittedly all backgrounds) who shunned a gay child.

If you want to watch a movie that has an example of what people who are gay and Mormon have to go through, rent the movie Latter Days. If you're squeamish about depictions of male sexual activity, you'll need to turn away from a few scenes, but it should give you some idea about the emotional toll involved.

:sniper: Met many in my life, all were racists.
ya right are the ones that are on this forum racist?

As for liking Mormons, the ones I've met are quite nice actually. There's been American ones at my door who are pleasant up until you inform them about your religion (I'm a Muslim btw), then they make an excuse to go and run as fast as they can away from you :(
Where do you live? If it seems like they run they probably dont know what to do. Many if you live outside of the us are fairly new at the mission thing. so you probably got ones that were fresh and didnt know how to deal with that. my boyfriend is soon going on a mission and we have been practicing what he would say to diff things and people and even though it is with me he still freezes and we have to change the subject.

EXACTLY, Lilminions. If I was investigating the Buhdist Religion I would talk to people who had lived that religion, not it's enemies. I know how it feels to be frustrated when everybodytells you "Oh, ya'll believe THIS..." instead of seeing what it is *I* believe. ANyway, good luck on your study of the faith... don't take ANYBODY'S word on it, not mine, not people here, not your boyfriend... find out for yourself. It is between you and God. Nobody else can tell you what to do. Remember that.
thank you for the advice. :p

because they pretend to be christian when they aren't.

I dont hate them I hate the religon I know its wrong and I refuse to hear anything of it I would like to go to heaven not hell. Love the sinner hate the sin.

:mad: Mor(m)ons are just idiots. They now even started bringing their retarded beliefs to Europe. But they forget that those in Europe invented Christianity in the first place, they do not need to have their religion brought back to them with some aim- and mindless additions to it. There is no truth in the Jewish, Christian, or Muslim way of worshipping Yah anyways. All who strictly believe in what the Torah says or what others have later (until today) added to the Bible for their own purposes should be banned from public life. Really! There is no more space in the real world for "believers". Divine aid has never and will never come to solve terrestial problems. And all who think otherwise should be kept from getting in contact with people. :mad:

My guess is that people see Mormons as either being a "fake" religion since it came about fairly recently (19th century if I recall my history correctly), or as having views that other people find excessively moralistic.

I've been nervous about dealing with people from a lot of different religious background in general because of the intolerance a lot of religions have toward homosexuality. I've seen some examples of families from Mormon backgrounds (admittedly all backgrounds) who shunned a gay child.

If you want to watch a movie that has an example of what people who are gay and Mormon have to go through, rent the movie Latter Days. If you're squeamish about depictions of male sexual activity, you'll need to turn away from a few scenes, but it should give you some idea about the emotional toll involved.

That doesn't speak for all of us. I have a cousin (ok a third cousin) who is in his fifties and just recently came out that he was gay. We all knew it. He'd been fighting it whole life. That doesn't change the way I love him or think of him. I just know instead of him bringing a girlfriend over for Thanksgiving he'll be bringing his boyfriend.

The church says on this subject that you should continue love and care for those that choose homosexuality. Of course, its the personal choice of someone to react or feel the way they do. (Free agency, gotta love it.)

And yes, many consider us "excessively moralistic". ("Why won't you wear a bikini?" or "No sex before marriage?!" And my favorite: "You don't drink alcohol? Weird.") Yeah, its a shame, isn't? We'd don't call ourselves unique people for nothing. ;) But I don't mind any of that. I know when I get married my husband will be a virgin like me (seeing as he's Mormon too). I know that I'll have a lower chance of lung cancer because I don't smoke and my brain will be ok since I don't do drugs. Alcohol will have no affect on me since I've never had a drop of it and don't plan too. I know that my boyfriend doesn't like me just because I dress like Britney Spears (no, I don't dress like her).

Just because you've met one Mormon, or even 10 doesn't give you the right to make judgements on them. Everyone is different. Despite that we all might share the same religion everyone has the right to act the way they do.

I don't judge all Catholics, Baptist, Muslims, etc. just on the few I've met.

If anyone has seen the movie SAVED! (starring Mandy Moore)? I knew a Christan (I don't use this term in the broad sense, but she called her specific church [i.e. Vineyard Christan Church] this.) girl that acted just like Mandy Moore's character. She thought all churches, besides her Vineyard, were cults. I don't judge her congregation by her though. I'm sure if she had a Bible on hand she would have thrown at me on numerous occasions saying Mandy's line: "I am filled with Christ love!" (or something to that affect.)

Besides, there is only one person I know of who can make true judgements. And that's God.

Besides, there is only one person I know of who can make true judgements. And that's God.
Amen.

To be honest, I prefer to judge by the person, not by religion. I'm sure there's plenty of Mormons who I simply wouldn't get along with, but, there's probably plenty I would. There's plenty of Catholics that would attack me with flaming sticks for being gay, but there's also some who I can have an interesting theological debate with. There's some Muslims who are fundamentalists and wish to convert the infidels, and there's many more who are simply trying to raise a family the way they think is "right".

I don't hate Mormons any more than anyone else, but I do think Mormonism is stupid. Why do I think it's stupid? Let's look at it for a second... correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

So this dude Joseph Smith, a man with 48 wives (according to legend anyway; only about half that number are confirmed historically) and a friggin' fraud conviction claimed to have found -- and subsequently lost before anyone else saw it -- a scroll made of gold written in a language he couldn't read, and he translated it "letter by letter" into King James English (meaning that, for one thing, it wasn't actually another language, just King James English with a different alphabet), including several contemporary American colloquilisms, such as the line "he went a preaching."

Completely laying the contents of this scroll aside, how f**king stupid would you have to be to believe something like that? Now it's a little different, but I'm referring to his first disciples; how did they fall for something so asanine? It's bad enough that the language of the document proves it was contemporary, not old, but the man was convicted of fraud of all things! Becoming a disciple to someone like that is like getting financial advice from, say, George W Bush.

I've known quite a few Mormons. My father was a Southern Baptist minister and suggested to all his children that knowing the tennents of all major religions would be helpful to us. Having Jewish relatives and Catholics in the family gave me plenty of interaction within the core of Jedeo Christian sects. With that being said, I think the problem many people have with Mormons is two fold.

Guilt - Many people feel guilt when faced with a "devout" mormon who holds themselves to standards that are in keeping with Christian morals.. The big difference is, that the Mormon religion doesn't allow for slips and forgiveness if you want to be one of the chosen to enter heaven. So the Mormon religion is followed by practicioners in such a way as to engender guilt within other Judeo Christian religions.. they make fun of the stiffness they precieve within the church.

Fringe effect - There's always one kid in the group who's normal enough to be seen with, but kind of odd in his/her own way. In this case, the founding fathers story as told in the book of Mormon leaves most Christians feeling as though they're dealing with a person who just refuses to see how silly their beliefs are. They regard them with the same sort of acceptance as they would a child who still believes in Santa Claus.. The Mormons may be part of the "Group" but they're the part of the group that nobody invites to the drunken High School party. They stand alone on the fringe..

These are just my observations.. Be they correct or not, they are mine.. and I'm stickin to em..

Mormons are everyones best buddys compared to the true evil of this world

Jehovahs witness's

*look guys when i say im not intrested it means Feck off.....do i really need to get my shotgun?*

mind you best way is tell them your a catholic and try and convert them never seen em leave so quick

Bakureslavia, wow. You've never said it better on how people precive us. And you've never been so right on the High School thing. People think it odd that we don't go to wild parties. And you, and many other people, notice that.

Dark, if your talking about JW's, you just offer then the Bible or another such book, or (my proffesor's husband did this once) open the door naked. If your talking about us Mormons when our missonaries come around tell them you're Jewish (unless they know otherwise). Hey, if you don't want to be talked to, it your choice. Eveyone has free angency.

Now, Unitai, you have it all wrong. They were gold plates, or more simply stated a gold book (gold is softer than other metals and doesn't tarnish, nor would it rot like paper or wood). And when you have God on your side, telling you what the words mean, then its rather easy to translate it into understandable English.

And at least 11 people saw the gold plates. We even have the specific dimensions: 6" x 8", 55-60 lbs. They were heavy, to say the least. Also, I would like to point out, copy of writings (in the un-translated form) were taken to a professor who was considered an expert on ancient writings (and he had no connections at all to the very very early Church). He demeed the characters authentic anicent text.

Also, before anyone points out further things. I would like to point out somethings too.

What is a prophet? He:
*Communicates God’s will to all people.
*Is a special witness for Jesus Christ, testifying of His divinity.
*Teaches the gospel and interprets the word of God.
*Calls the unrighteous to repentance.
*Receives revelations and directions from the Lord.
*May see into the future in order to warn the world of coming events

And before you step forward and say that Joseph Smith didn't do the last one, I would like to counter and say he did. And I have proof. Apart of scriptures we have modern day revelation and prophecy writings. These are know as the Docterine and Covenants (D&C can befound at Ensign, Segall's and Deseret bookstores). Just because they don't flat out say "I predict . . ." doesn't mean its not in there. Also, there are many other books. Just go to one of the affor mentioned locations. They are more common in AZ, UT, and CA, that I know of. I'm sure Idaho has some, as well as other states. you'd have to check online though.

Well, I don't know about any of you, but I hate everyone. but in my blackened little heart, I have a special place reserved for those mormons and witnesses, because they dare bother me in the middle of my satanic rituals!

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH whatever
A satanist... From Idaho... Now thats funny. :D

Hey. I don't hate.


My mormon roomate taught me how to drink charcoal filtered vodka, smoke foilies, and put cocaine up my nose.

She taught me how having the mormon symbol tattood on her belly was simply a sign of faith, a testament to her promise to birth 16 children and drive a large van.

You think I'm kidding don't you.


;)

Hey, I never said all Mormons stuck to the straight and narrow. People are human after all.

Hmm... I dunno if I particularly hate mormons, but I'm more wary of the church as a whole than most others (don't get me wrong, I distrust them all, but the question was mormons :p).

I grew up in a town that had quite the large mormon percentage in good ol' Idaho (and still live close by at the ripe old age of 21... one day I'll escape!). I had many mormon friends, and I didn't not get along with any for any reason but personality clashes. That said, I remember our senior basketball team had 12 guys, probably 7 or so mormons, 2 athiests (myself being one) and a few other christians. The devout ones were impossible to even converse with on theological matters, as any differing opinion was labeled utterly wrong no matter what. One comes to mind, "How can you believe in evolution? I was never a fucking ape!"

The ones who "fell from grace" a bit were fine, one time in one of these debates I asked one if he believed the world was 6,000 years old. His reply was "wait, who says that?" I replied the bible. His reply, "Oh hell no, that's just stupid, I don't believe that." :D

I think they might have a bit of the Amish-complex going on too. By this, I mean when they leave the farm (whatever, you get the idea) and they have to experience life and choose whether or not to come back to the fold. I stayed a virgin far longer based on moral grounds (also at 21) than most mormons I ever grew up with, I'd say about 75% lost theirs far sooner than me, before graduation even. I respect the mormons on here that defend that they know their partners will be virgins on their wedding day, but, and I say this from purely a male pig perspective so no yelling at poor me, the mormon gals were the ones guys wanted for the sake of "putting out." Oh, and boy did those guys know how to party.

It seems like more of a business to me, the more prominent and respected members of the church are the ones that always pay tithes on time and not necessarily very keen followers. One local rich family who always paid but also had the snottiest attitudes and highly corrupted kids had their house burn down, and in return the church built them a beautiful $250,000 dollar home for their loss. In another occasion, a rather poor and barely-making-ends-meet family, who wasn't always able to pay tithes but were always devout and were a very good and decent people were faced with the same disaster, a fire. The church gave them absolutely nothing because they weren't completely up-to-date on payments. So the family that could have bought a wonderful house easily out of savings was taken care of and the poor family was basically shat on. I'm not saying this as an attack, this is just the view I've been given from an outsider.

Anyway, I used plenty of generalizations, but I didn't honestly try and exaggerate anything, that's how it was for me/us. I grew up seeing mormons as corrupt as any other religion, with I'd say as many ne'er-do-wells as any other sect of society, maybe even more pent up. And I don't consider them fringe, I guess growing up here its hard to believe places don't have decent-sized mormon populations.

Again, I'd like to reinstate my comment about not all Mormons being on the straight and narrow. With the good you have the bad.

Now, it sounds to me, like with the fire thing that was a branch/ward (a couple of city blocks size boundries) thing. The same thing happened where I live (California) but both were treated equally. Granted, my ward, nor stake, probably had enough money to rebuild two homes, but they did help them out, buying food clothes, etc., helping them find affordable temporary homes.

Obviously people will be greedy and what not. But I'm sure once the Stake President (he runs a city sized area) or the Seventy (guys who over see different parts of the world) got wind of it those in charage would have been dealt with accordingly. So that isn't how all wards are ran.

I am a mormon... and most of the things that you hear about us are not true. I am proud of my religion, and would do anything to get the truth about us out. If you have heard things, dont go sharing them around, they might not be true. Ask, maybe you will find that we are not as "strange" as you think.

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.

Most people don't take kindly to proselytizing.

I didn't take kindly to the constant barrage of it while I lived there. So I left.

I also found it amusing to see a LDS die hard fuck around on her husband after hearing her say so many times how faithful she was to her husband and her religion.

I make a point of converting the young men they send around.

I am a mormon... and most of the things that you hear about us are not true. I am proud of my religion, and would do anything to get the truth about us out. If you have heard things, dont go sharing them around, they might not be true. Ask, maybe you will find that we are not as "strange" as you think.
Who should we ask ... like all religions faith means different things to different people ... and there are different groups within that share different outlooks.

some of the things may not be true of you or your sect but may be of others

I remember catching more than one of my LDS neighbors in Salt Lake City putting their empty liquor bottles in my trash can. They were apparently afraid that someone (the garbage man?) would report that they were drinking.

Hey, no problem in making the non-LDS person look like a wide bore conduit for Jack Daniels. I counted over thirty bottles in one can once.

I remember catching more than one of my LDS neighbors in Salt Lake City putting their empty liquor bottles in my trash can. They were apparently afraid that someone (the garbage man?) would report that they were drinking.

Hey, no problem in making the non-LDS person look like a wide bore conduit for Jack Daniels. I counted over thirty bottles in one can once.
Nice :)

Nice :)

Apparently, they had a party without telling everyone in the ward.

Apparently, they had a party without telling everyone in the ward.
People will be people ... even if they have to hide their activities

Nice :)
Ah, that's not half as good as the LDS woman who spent a lot of time in our office, telling us how holier than thou she was. I could go further, but I have the feeling that she's been "known" in the Biblical sense by so many men, that someone will recognize her.

this may be true. in fact is doesn't suprise me at all. i too am LDS but i didn't grow up in Utah and upon comming out here i was disapointed with all of the hipocrasy in this state. anywhere else being LDS means you are a good person who is working hard to do the best they can, in Utah being LDS doesn't mean that. i find this sad.

Ah, that's not half as good as the LDS woman who spent a lot of time in our office, telling us how holier than thou she was. I could go further, but I have the feeling that she's been "known" in the Biblical sense by so many men, that someone will recognize her.
Again people will be people even if they put on a faccad to the outside world

Again people will be people even if they put on a faccad to the outside world
I guess it's the facade that bothers me.

I don't want to have to wear one - it probably won't match my clothes.

Again people will be people even if they put on a faccad to the outside world
indeed they will. everyone has their demons and don't care to share them with the world. LDS people hide them especially from everyone because they are afraid of being judged, and i hate to say it but the LDS people as a whole can be very judgemental

I guess it's the facade that bothers me.

I don't want to have to wear one - it probably won't match my clothes.
Agreed ... know it does not match my shoes :p

I guess it's the facade that bothers me.

I don't want to have to wear one - it probably won't match my clothes.
it is annoying but we all have facades we use at cirtain times.

it is annoying but we all have facades we use at cirtain times.
Yeah but we all dont belong to an elective group that requires us to wear one just for being us

I don't want to belong to a religion that tells me that I can't drink certain beverages or eat certain foods.

And I'm not into wearing special underwear.

God, it would seem to me, would have better things (more important things) to judge us on - rather than nitpicking about whether or not we're coffee drinkers, or whether or not I wore the special underwear.

Yeah but we all dont belong to an elective group that requires us to wear one just for being us
its not required. people use them because they know what they do is wrong and they judge other people for it. they just don't want to be judged for it themselves.

I love Mormons!
I dated two at the same time for about 3 months. They were very *close* friends with each other. And extremely good looking. Anyways, who the hell hates Mormons?

I love Mormons!
I dated two at the same time for about 3 months. They were very *close* friends with each other. And extremely good looking. Anyways, who the hell hates Mormons?
you would be suprised

its not required. people use them because they know what they do is wrong and they judge other people for it. they just don't want to be judged for it themselves.
True but being not a member of a religion reduces the amout of faccad I have to put up because I dont care about a lot of the little nitpicky things that are part of everyday religous life

I find it a more healthy and self fufilling lifestyle

I do? Then my mom had better hide those old dog tags that say LDS on them.

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.

They're just messed up.

True but being not a member of a religion reduces the amout of faccad I have to put up because I dont care about a lot of the little nitpicky things that are part of everyday religous life

I find it a more healthy and self fufilling lifestyle
the only time any member has to put on a facade is when they don't want to be judged for something they are doing that they know is wrong. i don't use a facade because i find them hipocritical.

They're just messed up.
explain yourself

I had a two Mormon friends some years ago, Kyle and... Hmm, forgot the other guy's name.

Anyway, they were really nice people. But I just have something against the door-to-door Bible "salesmen". It's not the ones who just go to your door and ask, it's the ones who force you to listen for 30 minutes. They don't even let you shut the door! Sometimes they barge into your house, other times they just get in the way of the door.

Most Mormons? No problem with them. The zealots? I have too many problems with those guys.

the only time any member has to put on a facade is when they don't want to be judged for something they are doing that they know is wrong. i don't use a facade because i find them hipocritical.
Like with any group they are afraid of being judged ... because they are afraid of being shunned
Simple solution ... you cant be shunned from a group if you are a member of a group that has no specific requirements or judging

I had a two Mormon friends some years ago, Kyle and... Hmm, forgot the other guy's name.

Anyway, they were really nice people. But I just have something against the door-to-door Bible "salesmen". It's not the ones who just go to your door and ask, it's the ones who force you to listen for 30 minutes. They don't even let you shut the door! Sometimes they barge into your house, other times they just get in the way of the door.

Most Mormons? No problem with them. The zealots? I have too many problems with those guys.
are you talking about the missionaries? its not the bible they are giving away. and they get many doors shut in their faces.

Like with any group they are afraid of being judged ... because they are afraid of being shunned
Simple solution ... you cant be shunned from a group if you are a member of a group that has no specific requirements or judging
thats understandable but i think that not being a part of any group means that you are alone in the world and that is a sad thought

are you talking about the missionaries? its not the bible they are giving away. and they get many doors shut in their faces.
Yeah sometimes they do ... the price they pay for intruding on people (not all people are as nice as me and at least say goodbye :p )

thats understandable but i think that not being a part of any group means that you are alone in the world and that is a sad thought
Not alone I am just not in a small group ... I am in a very big one called humanity ... it is much bigger then any one individual religion

Yeah sometimes they do ... the price they pay for intruding on people (not all people are as nice as me)
more often that not actually. but they do it on their own. they don't get paid for it and they are doing it for at least 2 years.

Not alone I am just not in a small group ... I am in a very big one called humanity ... it is much bigger then any one individual religion
granted however, i find that having people who have the same beliefs as i do comforting.

more often that not actually. but they do it on their own. they don't get paid for it and they are doing it for at least 2 years.
Again their choice ... having a door slamed on you is hardly an issue (hell think of all the people you are intruding on ... and the ammount of time you are taking away from peoples activities)

granted however, i find that having people who have the same beliefs as i do comforting.
I am not into doing things for comfort sake ... not all easy things are right (not saying that being part of a religion is wrong) but I choose not to let that make a lifestyle decision for me.

Besides there are plenty of people I can share and have the same ideas without having to be a "member" of a group

Again their choice ... having a door slamed on you is hardly an issue (hell think of all the people you are intruding on ... and the ammount of time you are taking away from peoples activities)
what 30 seconds if you shut the door on them or at most 30 minutes if you sit down and listen to them once. oh what a big inconvenience

what 30 seconds if you shut the door on them or at most 30 minutes if you sit down and listen to them once
Both :p

what 30 seconds if you shut the door on them or at most 30 minutes if you sit down and listen to them once

I've found that the best way to make them go away is to give them the Pentacostal treatment.

Most of the time, they actually run away. Once, two young men left their bikes and just ran.

Seems they were afraid that they might be converted.

I've found that the best way to make them go away is to give them the Pentacostal treatment.

Most of the time, they actually run away. Once, two young men left their bikes and just ran.

Seems they were afraid that they might be converted.
I have also had a few “talks” … most that I have run across are (and this is just my opinion) afraid to have their faith questioned … they leave rather in a hurry when you do

But Mormons … or anyone door to door is so rare for me … (I live in Minnesota … on a farm …. Bout 18 miles out of the neerist city … 5 out of town … it’s a cold walk ;) )

i am sorry you all feel this way. i don't know what you were subject to from some people but that is not all there is to it. if you want to learn some actual information insted of rumors and hearsay go to the wabsite www.mormon.org

I knew a Morman that I really didn't like, but that was because he was really annoying. Not sure if thats his upbringing or what there.....
I also heard that they can't drink ice tea or soda, which is kind of, weird. I mean, I can almost get not eating cows or pig, but ICE TEA?

...the fundamentalist Mormons, who really freak me out. Those people... they scare me. The inbreeding, the polygamy, the brainwashing (seriously) - it all makes me very glad that I don't live in Utah.

Umm, I live in the Bering Straits of Alaska, and am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the ones you keep trying to call Mormon but which a lot of you misspell for some odd reason). I grew up in Washington State, and went to a Church run school in Idaho, known as the "laplads of Utah" meaning the culture transends state lines.

Here are my retaliations to the unresearched quote from above:

1. Inbreeding. What are you talking about? We didn't inbreed anymore than anyone else at the time, and less than some (think: Gone with the Wind, that was her COUSIN!). As far as your family goes: "If you don't have cousins marrying cousins in your family tree, you haven't gone back far enough." and that's not one of "our" quotes either. That's from NewsWeek.

2. Polygamy: The only people that currently practice polygamy in Utah are not members our our church. If it is found out that they are doing it, they are ex-comunicated. (Kinda like getting kicked out of the club.) Polygamy was useful in the early church. Back when congress still had it in their heads that women couldn't run businesses, own property, vote, or have farms by themselves. They needed a man to be the signer for legal documents. Also, with the amount of men that were killed prior to the running away from Missouri, and the amount that died during the long trek away from the US, who basically kicked us out, it became nessisary for men to be able to protect more than just their families. So they adopted others. Let me re-cap: we don't do it now. We haven't done it since civil war times, and we're probably not going to do it again in your lifetime.

3. Brainwashing. Really? Do we have camps set up for this or something? Is there music involved. And what are we brainwashed to do? When a certain phrase is stated by the president of South Africa we all jump up and sing? What good would brainwashing do, on a grand scale?
I think part of the reason people beilve in the brainwashing idea is that we are just really dedicated to this cause. And if you're going to be really dedicated to something, why not God? Would you rather us be overly zealous about cherry pie? Does that make more sense? Or maby play-dough. We're not hurting anything.

-me.
Lifelong member

are you talking about the missionaries? its not the bible they are giving away. and they get many doors shut in their faces.


I think that's what they are. Usually, they're pretty nice, and when you say you're not interested, they say "okay then, thanks for your time." and walk away. But the weirdos I don't like are the ones I mentioned.

It doesn't happen *too* often, but it has even so. It could be so much as them just putting their shoes in the way of the door, or all the way to them barging into my house.

I knew a Morman that I really didn't like, but that was because he was really annoying. Not sure if thats his upbringing or what there.....
I also heard that they can't drink ice tea or soda, which is kind of, weird. I mean, I can almost get not eating cows or pig, but ICE TEA?
Caffeine in the soda (might be some in iced tea as well) not supposed to ingest altering substances

I have also had a few “talks” … most that I have run across are (and this is just my opinion) afraid to have their faith questioned … they leave rather in a hurry when you do


Must be because they don't really think consider why they believe what they believe in their short five week, all-expense paid missions.

I don't dislike Mormons but I do dislike their religion. You see I live in Utah and am not Mormon and I can tell you Mormon's here discriminate against non-Mormons the way many other people probably discriminate against Mormons outside of Utah. Ever been turned down for a date for not being Mormon, ever been asked in a job interview what ward you belong too or where you served your mission? It's not fun explaining to people who expect you to be Mormon that you are not and they do treat you differently after. And yes I do have Mormon friends, but I do consider them the exception to the norm. The religion, like most, encourages conformity and downplays independent thought. Mormon ideology has played havoc with many areas of state function. For instance Utah has one of the lowest per pupil spending of any state in the USA. Why is this? Because Mormons have such large families and the tax base to student ratio is far beyond that of anything else in the states. But not only is that funding rarely every increased. Mormons generally vote in a block. And that is why we're the most conservative state in the US. I've worked in the state legislature, and I will tell you when the church makes its opinion known on a matter the vast majority of the legislature follows suit with what the church says in rank and file. It's the exact reason our liquor laws are so ass backwards and why Prop 3 passed discriminating against gay marriage. But this is all a symptom of the biggest thing I don't like about the Mormon religion, and I'll admit it's not limited to their religion; they impose their beliefs on others. Mormons don't like homosexuality, alcohol, abortion, ect... so thus they make it difficult for anyone else who doesn't agree with them. Fine you don't agree with those things, then you know what, don't practice them yourselves. It's not up to you to make sure everyone else outside of your religion follows your rules. It’s rude and pretentious. Like I said I don't blame the individual member but they have this groupthink going on that generally makes it impossible to see these flaws or understand anything outside their perspective that has had blinders put on it by the church who limits an outside perspective. This is the reason they don't see R rated movies, hell I knew Mormons who wouldn't see PG-13 movies. How open can your perspective be if you won't listen to any other point of view but the church's?

PS
IF you want a great, and relatively objective, perspective of the church, fundamentalist sects broken off from the chruch, and its history; read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer. It's very informative and was a thoroughly enthralling read.

As Shishmaref has neatly covered a few topics of controversy, I would add just a little more.

There is no gravedigging. Baptisms for the dead (not OF the dead) are done by proxy.
Mormons are Christians! Not the traditional type, it's true, but Christ is definitely central to the religion. He's even in the name of the church... come on people.

Sounds like Utah needs an SLC Punk-style movement.

Sounds like Utah needs an SLC Punk-style movement.
Absolutely it does, Utah has a very strong counter-culture, but unfortuantly it isn't enough diversity to counter the 70% + prodominate religion here. I wouldn't have such a problem with it as long as opposing points of views could be heard but its nearly impossible. That is why the legislature here is 75% Republican and about 90%+ Mormon. This does not ensure the democratic process.

From what I've been told, Utah is great to live in, as long as you are not a non-Mormon female who happens to have more education than many of the men around you and smokes. Oh yeah, don't be Native American either.

Why not? I thought it would be great to be NA in a Mormon area. You are really a Jew, you get to be white if you become Mormon and you're great, vast buried cites are all around, just waiting to be discovered...

i am sorry you all feel this way. i don't know what you were subject to from some people but that is not all there is to it. if you want to learn some actual information insted of rumors and hearsay go to the wabsite www.mormon.org

It's not possible for me to call my experiences with the Mormons in Salt Lake City for three years a "rumor".

I don't dislike Mormons but I do dislike their religion. You see I live in Utah and am not Mormon and I can tell you Mormon's here discriminate against non-Mormons the way many other people probably discriminate against Mormons outside of Utah. Ever been turned down for a date for not being Mormon, ever been asked in a job interview what ward you belong too or where you served your mission? It's not fun explained to people who expect you to be Mormon that you are not and they do treat you differently after. And yes I do have Mormon friends, but I do consider them the exception to the norm.

Well, that's why you don't like the religion. You have samples of good and bad behavior from mormons. For some reason, you omit the good samples from your evaluation. I'd imagine one would hate every group if one did that.

The religion, like most, encourages conformity and downplays independent thought. Mormon ideology has played havoc with many areas of state function. For instance Utah has one of the lowest per pupil spending of any state in the USA. Why is this? Because Mormons have such large families and the tax base to student ratio is far beyond that of anything else in the states.

I disagree. You don't provide any evidence to suggest that the religion downplays independent thought.

But not only is that funding rarely every increased. Mormons generally vote in a block. And that is why we're the most conservative state in the US. I've worked in the state legislature, and I will tell you when the church makes its opinion known on a matter the vast majority of the legislature follows suit with what the church says in rank and file.

I'm pretty sure this is exaggerated if it bears any truth at all. The church is very careful not to become embroiled in matters of partisanism, which would be suggested by you "block voting". The church practices the same non-comment on state politics.

It's the exact reason our liquor laws are so ass backwards and why Prop 3 passed discriminating against gay marriage.

So many other states around the country have laws against gay marriage now that you must be disagreeing with religious people everywhere.

But this is all a symptom of the biggest thing I don't like about the Mormon religion, and I'll admit it's not limited to their religion; they impose their beliefs on others. Mormons don't like homosexuality, alcohol, abortion, ect... so thus they make it difficult for anyone else who doesn't agree with them. Fine you don't agree with those things, then you know what, don't practice them yourselves. It's not up to you to make sure everyone else outside of your religion follows your rules.

There are those who would argue that you couldn't pass any laws without imposing one school of thought at least slightly over another.

Like I said I don't blame the individual member but they have this groupthink going on that generally makes it impossible to see these flaws or understand anything outside their perspective that has had blinders put on it by the church who limits an outside perspective. This is the reason they don't see R rated movies, hell I knew Mormons who wouldn't see PG-13 movies. How open can your perspective be if you won't listen to any other point of view but the church's?[/quote]

The churhc doesn't limit its membership's viewing of rated R movies. They prescribe against it. And when was the last time a movie required the rating of R to communicate a certain "point of view". Last time I checked most movies (especially 'R') were for entertainment, not education.


PS
IF you want a great, and relatively objective, perspective of the church and its history read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer. It's very informative and was a thoroughly enthralling read.

The book has little to do with the Mormonism. Perhaps as a periphery study of groupd which have split off from the church, but the ties of the violent stories told are only vaguely (and seruptitiously) tied to the church if at all. It's hardly objective.

Mormons are SO much cooler than regular Christians since the reject the notion of Hell.

Yeah, but Hell doesn't reject the idea of YOU!

Please allow me to introduce myself...

Absolutely it does, Utah has a very strong counter-culture, but unfortuantly it isn't enough diversity to counter the 70% + prodominate religion here. I wouldn't have such a problem with it as long as opposing points of views could be heard but its nearly impossible. That is why the legislature here is 75% Republican and about 90%+ Mormon. This does not ensure the democratic process.


This is why there needs to be COMPLETE separation of Church and State. Places like Utah and the "Deep South" are *very* religiously inclined, and that doesn't ensure a true Democratic process, in both legislation and voting.

And a lot of the people are just plain creepy. Religious zealots abound in both areas, but the difference between the "Deep South" and Utah is that the South has an abundance of hick jerk-offs who marry their siblings.

Absolutely it does, Utah has a very strong counter-culture, but unfortuantly it isn't enough diversity to counter the 70% + prodominate religion here. I wouldn't have such a problem with it as long as opposing points of views could be heard but its nearly impossible. That is why the legislature here is 75% Republican and about 90%+ Mormon. This does not ensure the democratic process.

As long as mormon politicians aren't influencing the opportunities non-members have to get into state government, it isn't a violation of the democratic process. In fact, that the majority of mormons in the state translates into a majority of mormons in government is a testament to the democratic process.

One of the points he made earlier is that they *do* influence just that. So it's not a Democratic process at all.

Why do people hate mormons?
Because they steal children and lay their eggs in them!

(C) Church of (J)Jesus (C) Christ of (L) Latter (D) Day (S) Saints. We perfer LDS.

RESEARCHER: Are you saying that you can understand what the whales are saying!?
SPOCK: The hell I am.
KIRK: Um, too much LDS in the Seventies...

One of the points he made earlier is that they *do* influence just that. So it's not a Democratic process at all.

How so? I didn't catch any violations of the democratic process from him.

(C) Church of (J)Jesus (C) Christ of (L) Latter (D) Day (S) Saints. We perfer LDS.

Oh yeah! I forgot! You guys ARE the splinter group. I'd forgotten about that. Well, you guys haven't done too shabily even considering you are the ones who broke away from the main...

How so? I didn't catch any violations of the democratic process from him.

Oh the fact the the Church's PR would e-mail many of the legislators with the church's position on things, legislators quoting the bible when debating matters, and espousing "Utah values," read mormon values. Trust me i've seen legislators swing 180 degress after the church makes its position known. For instance this year, the legislature created a task fource to re-evaluate Utah's liquor laws. The church made it known that this was a bad idea and the measure was dropped and no more action on the subject was made.

Oh the fact the the Church's PR would e-mail many of the legislators with the church's position on things, legislators quoting the bible when debating matters, and espousing "Utah values," read mormon values. Trust me i've seen legislators swing 180 degress after the church makes its position known. For instance this year, the legislature created a task fource to re-evaluate Utah's liquor laws. The church made it known that this was a bad idea and the measure was dropped and no more action on the subject was made.

First, legislators quute the bible in Congress, and attempt to court religious groups throughout the country. This is hardly a matter of "the mormons told me to!" It's more implicating politicians of insincerity, something I'm sure everyone will be shocked to hear about.

And second, what do you mean they said it "was a bad idea"? That the task force was a bad idea? That liqour laws are a bad idea? I think your statement's too vague to guage the church's involvement in political affairs. Perhaps if there were more exact information I could respond to it. Right now I'm tempted to call this a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Oh yeah! I forgot! You guys ARE the splinter group. I'd forgotten about that. Well, you guys haven't done too shabily even considering you are the ones who broke away from the main...

That's a matter of opinion. Your seem obviously affiliated with Community of Christ and are (for some unexplained reason) harboring resenment against the church for its success. Joseph Smith tried to implant in the saints minds the idea of modern revelation as the basis for administrative actions, which could make the LDS more "heirs to the throne" than the former RLDS.

I dislike them because they convert dead people. One specific case involves Jewish holocaust victims.

Well, that's why you don't like the religion. You have samples of good and bad behavior from mormons. For some reason, you omit the good samples from your evaluation. I'd imagine one would hate every group if one did that.

You are right I didn't discuss the good thing about the church and i will agree there are many. It’s a great family religion which promotes strong family ties and a strong community. These are great things, but not if you're an outsider. It only becomes alienating, because they often won't associate with you



I disagree. You don't provide any evidence to suggest that the religion downplays independent thought.

Well the fact the church often doesn't think twice to apostatize anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs. Many Mormon historians and writers were apostatized for writing about the Mormon Meadows Massacre.




I'm pretty sure this is exaggerated if it bears any truth at all. The church is very careful not to become embroiled in matters of partisanism, which would be suggested by you "block voting". The church practices the same non-comment on state politics.

The church made it well known, its opinions on Prop 3. And you are right i don't agree with any religion speaking for everyone and barring gay marriage for those outside of their religion. They can bar it within their own religion but have no right to speak for everyone.



The churhc doesn't limit its membership's viewing of rated R movies. They prescribe against it. And when was the last time a movie required the rating of R to communicate a certain "point of view". Last time I checked most movies (especially 'R') were for entertainment, not education.

You are right they are forms of entertainment, but they are also perspectives or the world and the filmmakers. And I'll be the first to admit there are many R rated movies don't need to be, but any time you limit your experience base you are only limiting your objectivity and perspective base.



The book has little to do with the Mormonism. Perhaps as a periphery study of groupd which have split off from the church, but the ties of the violent stories told are only vaguely (and seruptitiously) tied to the church if at all. It's hardly objective.

Yes the book's main themes are Mormon Fundamentalists who are not part of the mainstream, but regardless it does offer a very interesting history of the church that most people have no understanding off. Most people don't know Mormon history as I'm sure you can agree.

First, legislators quute the bible in Congress, and attempt to court religious groups throughout the country. This is hardly a matter of "the mormons told me to!" It's more implicating politicians of insincerity, something I'm sure everyone will be shocked to hear about.

And second, what do you mean they said it "was a bad idea"? That the task force was a bad idea? That liqour laws are a bad idea? I think your statement's too vague to guage the church's involvement in political affairs. Perhaps if there were more exact information I could respond to it. Right now I'm tempted to call this a case of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Well I certainly don't agree with them quoting the bible in Congress either. And quoting Mormon docterine as an arguement for or against something certainly seems to be religion leading government to me.

And to clarify the church let it be known they disagreed with reforming and loosening Utah's liquor laws. And yes the Liquor Task Force was dissasembled directly because of this being that within a matter of days most of the Mormon legislators voted to disassemble it. I would hardly consider this a coincidence. Granted many other states have wonky liquor laws as well, ours are by far the most restricted. And considering the churchs well known stance on alcohol I would again hardly consider this coincidence.

Well the fact the church often doesn't think twice to apostatize anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs. Many Mormon historians and writers were apostatized for writing about the Mormon Meadows Massacre.


I think you mean excommunicate. Apostatizing is voluntarily abandoning one's religious beliefs.

I think you mean excommunicate. Apostatizing is voluntarily renouncing one's religions beliefs.
Yes you are correct, wrong use of the term on my part.
I was under the understanding that was the term the Mormon religion used, thanks for the clarification.

Any church that has its desperate members putting over thirty liquor bottles in my trash can at night has a real problem with reality.

On the outside, crunchy sober goodness - hey, we voted against liquor!

On the inside, squishy, pus-filled rottenness - hey, we just drank a fifth - and now we're putting the bottle in the non-Mormon's trash can!

Well the fact the church often doesn't think twice to apostatize anyone who doesn't agree with their beliefs. Many Mormon historians and writers were apostatized for writing about the Mormon Meadows Massacre.


That's a misnomer. The churhc doesn't "apostatize" anyone. Apostatization is the act of a member leaving the church. The church will "ex-communicate" a member if he or she violates certain laws (usually adultery, drug use, or violent crime), but they do not repress the ways individual members believe. There is no disciplinary action for a member who disagrees with the churches stance on the death penalty, for instance. There are no penaties for people to espouse a certain ideology. People who disobey rules of the church--rules they agreed to attempt to follow upon their entering membership--can be penalized or excommunicated.


The church made it well known, its opinions on Prop 3. And you are right i don't agree with any religion speaking for everyone and barring gay marriage for those outside of their religion. They can bar it within their own religion but have no right to speak for everyone.

The church didn't speak for everyone. People spoke pretty well for themselves, as it did pass, likely with a large margin of victory. Look the majority of the people in the state are mormons, is it really a molestaion of democracy for the people to actually apply their religious beleifs to their politic ideologies, making the church an inderect influence on state government?

You are right they are forms of entertainment, but they are also perspectives or the world and the filmmakers. And I'll be the first to admit there are many R rated movies don't need to be, but any time you limit your experience base you are only limiting your objectivity and perspective base.

Example: You don't know what it's like to murder or eat human flesh (hopefully)

This is a limitation of your experience base. Everyone limits their experience base in accordance to what they feel is right and wrong. It's natural. The important thing is that church does not limit the members experience base in the intake of infromation. On the contrary, the church advocates understanding issues, philosophies, and cultures from everywhere. Presiding authorities have shown an active interst in the membership being well-read and well-informed. The church's position against risque-ness in films has nothing to do with members ovbjectivity.

Yes the book's main themes are Mormon Fundamentalists who are not part of the mainstream, but regardless it does offer a very interesting history of the church that most people have no understanding off. Most people don't know Mormon history as I'm sure you can agree. Yes, most people do not know mormon history. I also think Jon Krakauer is most people.

Any church that has its desperate members putting over thirty liquor bottles in my trash can at night has a real problem with reality.

On the outside, crunchy sober goodness - hey, we voted against liquor!

On the inside, squishy, pus-filled rottenness - hey, we just drank a fifth - and now we're putting the bottle in the non-Mormon's trash can!

I'm Sorry that you got the wrong part of town with the jack-mormons. I'm not sorry that you've decided to couch your ideas of the whole religion off of that.

I've never met a mormon i liked or thought I could trust.

They are religious nuts, I dont like protestant religious nuts either.

On the subject of mormonism, there is a website which I think offers a great deal of insight into the mormon religion.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/morma

I've never met a Mormon I didn't like.
I've never met a Mormon.

The LDS church I'm okay with. But here in Utah, there are more intolerant or hypocritical Mormons than there are good-hearted and genuinely faithful ones. They villainize everyone else in Utah, then go to church with beers in their car. So everyone else tends to villainize them in return. Or we just stop talking about them.

I do not hate them, yet I do not agree with them.

They say they are Christain, but Christianity is defined by Protestants and Catholics by being saved by Christ through the Holy Spirit. Mormons believe you are saved by doing good deeds, which is not Christianity.

EDIT: Mormons also think you can become perfect and do not believe in natural sin

I do not hate them, yet I do not agree with them.

They say they are Christain, but Christianity is defined by Protestants and Catholics by being saved by Christ through the Holy Spirit. Mormons believe you are saved by doing good deeds, which is not Christianity.

EDIT: Mormons also think you can become perfect and do not believe in natural sin

Natural sin? I'm not sure about that. But what's so odd about them believing we can become perfect? It's the goal of evolution to perfect the species, is it not? Else why do poorly developed evolutions fail in the wild?

Natural sin? I'm not sure about that. But what's so odd about them believing we can become perfect? It's the goal of evolution to perfect the species, is it not? Else why do poorly developed evolutions fail in the wild?

Every person is born into natural sin except for one, you can guess. Being perfect is impossible, if you know someone living who is perfect, tell me, if you do, either they or you are lying.

They are the cleanes people I know, they don't drink boos. Or that's what I heard. Ya I've heard some pretty wierd stuff alot of it is from a secondary sorce of them coming in suites and trying to convert you I know they do that. I think that is a foul practice. Do not try to sway other people motives. Do they really believe that Jesus is Satin's brother? Do they think Joseph Smith is higher than Jesus? Well these rumors produce some distrust. I know you can't enter into a temple if your not mormon. What are they hiding in there? It's wierd I have a lot of mormon friends and I am not like religionist or somthing but I mean they have some pretty wierd things going.

They are the cleanes people I know, they don't drink boos. Or that's what I heard. Ya I've heard some pretty wierd stuff alot of it is from a secondary sorce of them coming in suites and trying to convert you I know they do that. I think that is a foul practice. Do not try to sway other people motives. Do they really believe that Jesus is Satin's brother? Do they think Joseph Smith is higher than Jesus? Well these rumors produce some distrust. I know you can't enter into a temple if your not mormon. What are they hiding in there? It's wierd I have a lot of mormon friends and I am not like religionist or somthing but I mean they have some pretty wierd things going.

From what I've heard, Jesus and Satan were sons of God, Satan was bad, Jesus was good. Joseph Smith is not higher then Jesus. The Book of Mormom is equal to the bible, it doesn't explain it. They DO NOT believe in polygamy. They believe you must have as many children as possible to save them. And they believe if you are very good and do good deeds, you will become a God and have your own planet, like our God. But that's what i've HEARD.

Every person is born into natural sin except for one, you can guess. Being perfect is impossible, if you know someone living who is perfect, tell me, if you do, either they or you are lying.

Yikes. Well, of course we aren't perfect. But aren't we commanded to be like Him? The state of one's birth isn't what matters. We're of the flesh and of God. And I'd rather strive to be as He is than to long after the things of flesh in my eternal life. Wouldn't you? So our bodies are "tainted" (frankly, I think that's bull, since all dark and evil things exist for our use and education just like the herbs and the land), why should that mean we cannot seek cleansing?

From what I've heard, Jesus and Satan were sons of God, Satan was bad, Jesus was good. Joseph Smith is not higher then Jesus. The Book of Mormom is equal to the bible, it doesn't explain it. They DO NOT believe in polygamy. They believe you must have as many children as possible to save them. And they believe if you are very good and do good deeds, you will become a God and have your own planet, like our God. But that's what i've HEARD.

Ahh but they did used to beleive in polygammy and only dropped it when essentially forced to by the government. They also used to not allow blacks intheo the preisthood until in the early 70's (in responce to the civil rights movement) the prophet received a revalation saying that blacks are OK. How timely of God to set them straight, instead of commanding it at the beginning and not just when its now expected of them. Although they currently still aren't too keen on interracial marriage.

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.
i have disliked all the Mormons i have met, but i wouldn't presume to generalize those people to ALL Mormons everywhere. it is possible there are good Mormons and i just haven't met any.

I personally don't understand how mainstream Christians believe in such a concept as natural sin--and still believe that God is a just being.

God: I love you all, and am all powerful, but I can't/won't/am not nice enough to stop you from sinning.

Many here have argued that hell is something that we put on ourselves (or that, we run away from home, Satan does NOT kidnap us.)

That's like God saying: Oh, yes, I love you; I know EXACTLY where you're going to be--and it's dangerous--but I'm not going to do anything about it.

Mainstream Christians have a weaker moral structure, in my opinion, because of natual sin.

They believe that, if they cannot become perfect, they shouldn't try.

If we (Mormons) are wrong about perfection, at least we shall have brownie points for trying.

Faith without works is dead.

There misguided.

On the subject of mormonism, there is a website which I think offers a great deal of insight into the mormon religion.

Ha Ha! Very funny.

The LDS church I'm okay with. But here in Utah, there are more intolerant or hypocritical Mormons than there are good-hearted and genuinely faithful ones. They villainize everyone else in Utah, then go to church with beers in their car. So everyone else tends to villainize them in return. Or we just stop talking about them.

I'm not sure there are more hypocritical and intolerant mormons than good hearted faithful mormons in Utah, but I'll be the first to say it's a center for "Jack-mormons". Much of it comes out of the fact that many youth are born into the church and are thus associated with the church--though they do not act the part at all.

As they grow older, they take the teachings of the church for granted, (in a psychological sense) equating disobedience to church teachings with freedom and independence. So, in action they are not really mormons, but for whatever reason (its a a large part of the social scene, part of their heritage, etc.) they still call themselves mormon.

It all ties into the fact that there are gradual levels of faithfulness in every church (or even academic schools of thought, for that matter). You find lots of faithful Catholics and Catholic priests. But, unfortunately some Catholics and Catholic priests don't conform to this.

It's a shame that the worst people associated with religions are typically the easiest for others to identify the religion as. Muslims are unfairly associated with terrorists, Catholics priests are joked on as child molestors, Televangelists who take advantage of their congragations thought of faster than those that preach more selflessly, and Mormons are seen as all being "Jack".

I suppose it's just the product of our cynical modern world.

They also used to not allow blacks intheo the preisthood until in the early 70's (in responce to the civil rights movement) the prophet received a revalation saying that blacks are OK. How timely of God to set them straight, instead of commanding it at the beginning and not just when its now expected of them.

Yes, of course. If I were God, after them driven from New York, Missouri, Illinois at mob-point, I'd reveal to the church to incorporate doctrines which would make them even more persecuted. It isn't exactly new idea among Christian faiths that God allows His people to follow lower laws when they aren't ready for the higher ones. Consider the Isrealites from in the wilderness. They were originally trusted to follow higher, purer law. Soon though, they were worshipping golden calves and "commiting whoredoms". So, God sent forth a much more specific, lesser law.

A parallel is followed in Acts, as well. Why didn't Jesus just tell the apostles right off the bat that the church He'd would include Gentiles? He and His followers would've been killed on the spot. Only after a little time and increased understanding among the people, and the strengthening of His church did Jesus reveal to Peter that He should allow gentiles into the church. Likewise, women in the early Christian Church were treated almost as second class citizens (as per the oft referenced passages in the Pauline Epistles). If you take every correspondence between a church's actions and an increasingly friendly social environment for that change as a sign of a church's institutional weakness, then you might as well condemn all of Christianity.

Although they currently still aren't too keen on interracial marriage.

BS.

I personally know many interreacial LDS couples--in rural Ohio! The town I grew up in, just 15 minutes out from Columbus is more racist than anysemi-practicing Mormon I know. The LDS church teaches nothing against various races, and is fully supportive of interracial marriage. It's of note that LDS membership is higher outside the US than it is inside the US.

Awful diverse for such a racist religion.

Ha Ha! Very funny.
BS.

I personally know many interreacial LDS couples--in rural Ohio! The town I grew up in, just 15 minutes out from Columbus is more racist than anysemi-practicing Mormon I know. The LDS church teaches nothing against various races, and is fully supportive of interracial marriage. It's of note that LDS membership is higher outside the US than it is inside the US.

Awful diverse for such a racist religion.

I'm not saying there aren't interracial couples in the LDS faith i'm just saying its not openly encouraged and often culturally frowned apon. This can't directly be attributed to the religion if it isn't directly stating as much, but a lot of the negative aspects of Mormon's I observe can't be be heald to the church itself but quite often is prevalent in most of its followers most often in a very subtle fashion. Like non-mormons being alientated for example. I'm sure it's members don't make a rational choice to cut themselves off from dealing and speak condesceding with non-moromons but it does happen a lot and sometimes I theorize that they are not even aware of it. Like I said I'm taking from a Utah perspective and I'm sure nearly every LDS chruch outside of Utah is much more diverse than here. Interracial marriages here are extremely rare, and Utah itself is hardly diverse being one of the if not the whitest state in the union.

I have absolutely no reason to hate any Mormon. But they are annoying when they try to convert you. And they try all too often.
I hear that. There are a few Mormons I have reason to hate, but it's not because they're Mormon. Just 'cause they're ignorant, self-serving idiots. At the same time, there are non-Mormons I hate because they're ignorant, self-serving idiots as well.

It kinda sucks to live in such a conservative, religious place like this, but it does teach you a great deal about equality and freedom of religion.

I'm not sure there are more hypocritical and intolerant mormons than good hearted faithful mormons in Utah, but I'll be the first to say it's a center for "Jack-mormons". Much of it comes out of the fact that many youth are born into the church and are thus associated with the church--though they do not act the part at all.

As they grow older, they take the teachings of the church for granted, (in a psychological sense) equating disobedience to church teachings with freedom and independence. So, in action they are not really mormons, but for whatever reason (its a a large part of the social scene, part of their heritage, etc.) they still call themselves mormon.

It all ties into the fact that there are gradual levels of faithfulness in every church (or even academic schools of thought, for that matter). You find lots of faithful Catholics and Catholic priests. But, unfortunately some Catholics and Catholic priests don't conform to this.

It's a shame that the worst people associated with religions are typically the easiest for others to identify the religion as. Muslims are unfairly associated with terrorists, Catholics priests are joked on as child molestors, Televangelists who take advantage of their congragations thought of faster than those that preach more selflessly, and Mormons are seen as all being "Jack".

I suppose it's just the product of our cynical modern world.


Very well argued, and the most likely thought I've encountered on the behavior of "Jack" Mormons. Honored to have received this response!

I did generalize too far. No, I don't know about most of the population. But I can honestly say it's that way with most of the people I was raised with. I've known only one honest Mormon, one who's thought deeply about their faith and still chooses to abide with the Church. That one is my grandmother, a very simple nurse, and the truest beacon of LDS values in my experience. Her character may be the sole reason I don't actually hate the Church, and don't care to try disproving it, like so many other apostates.

I dislike them because they convert dead people. One specific case involves Jewish holocaust victims.

Ok I would like to point out we baptize by proxy (aka in their place) but it ultimately the dead person's choice whether to accept the act done for them or not. Yes, the dead still get to make choices for themselves. My mother died when I was five, when I twelve I baptized her (long story short she was LDS, but got excommunicate because she wanted to show off for my step-dad's Catholic fam). Its my mom's choice if she wishes to accept the act I did for her.

I'm not saying there aren't interracial couples in the LDS faith i'm just saying its not openly encouraged and often culturally frowned apon.

I would like to know where you're getting this information. If you live in Utah and this is what you observe, then please state so for you area. I would like to remind you that this isn't so.

My fiance/boyfriend (ok, so we're not "offically" engaged) are of different races, both of us being LDS too. I'm Mexican and he's white. Nothing wrong with that. A couple in my old ward was an African-American/White marriage. They're children married others of different races too. Also, one of my good friends is marrying a girl who came from Japan. My mother's best friend is half-Native American (Onida[sp?] and half-white (both parents LDS). And her brother married a full blooded Navajo woman.

That spans several states by the way. So tell me, where did you see this written information about frowning upon interracial marriage within our Church? If its by word of mouth, then its likely unreliable, being that words change from person to person (think of the game of telephone).

This can't directly be attributed to the religion if it isn't directly stating as much, but a lot of the negative aspects of Mormon's I observe can't be be heald to the church itself but quite often is prevalent in most of its followers most often in a very subtle fashion. Like non-mormons being alientated for example. I'm sure it's members don't make a rational choice to cut themselves off from dealing and speak condesceding with non-moromons but it does happen a lot and sometimes I theorize that they are not even aware of it. Like I said I'm taking from a Utah perspective and I'm sure nearly every LDS chruch outside of Utah is much more diverse than here. Interracial marriages here are extremely rare, and Utah itself is hardly diverse being one of the if not the whitest state in the union.

Ahh, glad you cleared that up. Well, you are in the heartland of Mormonism. And for whatever reason those from Utah always seem to bring us down. I think they have to much pride, this coming from another member.

In California, its obvisouly different. As well in AZ, NV, and RI.

I know from one of my best friends that when she moved up there to go to college she was somewhat shunned. Yes, Utah Mormon shunned a California Mormon. Its the pride thing again. They think since they are closer to Salt Lake, they're better, they're not. Just as I'm sure (please don't take this personally) those Catholics that work in/live by the Vatican think they're better than the rest of the world's Catholics. It isn't true.

TIP TO GET THE MISSIONARIES OFF YOUR DOOR:
Tell them you're Jewish. Missionaries aren't allowed to go to a Jewish person and teach them, and Jewish person has to come to them. Its actually quite a long story but the basics giest is that they are Israelites, even if they are living in different country.

And if they don't call their Stake President and tell them you're Jewish. It'll keep you off the door-to-door list for a very long time. ;)

LOL! I skimmed over the post w/out my reading glasses on and thought the thread was "Why do people hate Morons?"

The Mormons I've met have been very nice people, though some of them have struck me as being a bit peculiar. Being different never was a crime though (not in this country at least).

I've met some very nice morons too. :D

I have very mixed feelings about this topic. I grew up a non-Mormon in Mormon country. So, I have many close friends who are Mormon, but have some automatic negative associations. I am very familiar with the LDS religion. Although I find it a combination of the inane and the repulsive, that is true of most organized religions.

I am torn between defending Mormons against ignorant prejudice and providing ammunition for more informed disdain. Basically, it is silly and stupid to hate "Mormons." There are many Mormon beliefs and attitudes, however, that deserve scorn.

Ok I would like to point out we baptize by proxy (aka in their place) but it ultimately the dead person's choice whether to accept the act done for them or not. Yes, the dead still get to make choices for themselves. My mother died when I was five, when I twelve I baptized her (long story short she was LDS, but got excommunicate because she wanted to show off for my step-dad's Catholic fam). Its my mom's choice if she wishes to accept the act I did for her.



I would like to know where you're getting this information. If you live in Utah and this is what you observe, then please state so for you area. I would like to remind you that this isn't so.

My fiance/boyfriend (ok, so we're not "offically" engaged) are of different races, both of us being LDS too. I'm Mexican and he's white. Nothing wrong with that. A couple in my old ward was an African-American/White marriage. They're children married others of different races too. Also, one of my good friends is marrying a girl who came from Japan. My mother's best friend is half-Native American (Onida[sp?] and half-white (both parents LDS). And her brother married a full blooded Navajo woman.

That spans several states by the way. So tell me, where did you see this written information about frowning upon interracial marriage within our Church? If its by word of mouth, then its likely unreliable, being that words change from person to person (think of the game of telephone).

snip

Let's be clear. The LDS church has a history of express racisim (but that is also true of many other religions, particularly American protestant sects). The LDS history is fairly recent and has a lingering effect. The white hegemony of Utah and Idaho does not help.

Here is an interesting article about the LDS church's struggles with racism.
http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2004/feat_2004-12-16.cfm

You might also take a look at this website's summary of the LDS's church's current attitude towards interracial marriage.
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/family/marriage/interracial.htm

I don't hate Mormons, have some friends who are Mormons--and our relationship was fine after we set out an agreement not to discuss religion.

However as to mormonism itself i do have some issues key ones being

1. Claim to be a christian faith: Christianity implies following christ--as teachings of mormonism directly contradict teachings of jesus then I would say claiming to be a Christian faith is dubious- ie: Jesus said there is only ONE God in Mormonism there are a minimum of three (probably minimum of four if you include joseph smith) potentially millions--concept being that if you are good you become God of your own planet ;)

2. The multiple wives thing: It is not enough to say they dont have it now, Joseph smith had multiple YOUNG (note young because that always seems to be a key part of it)wives, he taught it as being of God, if that can be set aside then how can any of his teachings be regarded as valid? if it can't be set aside why have they?? and how does that sit with biblical teaching of a church leader can `have but one wife`.

3. Book of Abraham....ummmm proven to be a load of tosh--yet still defended by the church

4. I married `inter-racially' so stand by it as being a good thing lol and they discourage that for no good reason `biblically', just some long held deep seated prejudices and social twaddle.

5. Secrecy surrounding the book of Mormon, and carrying of two bibles, IMHO they tend to approach the un initiated as just another Christian sect (which they are not--see 1), they discuss jesus and the Bible (standard) and pull people in under the guise of just being another group of Christians, only when they have people `in' do they start revealing the true teaching?? WHY?

in Summary--I have no problem with Mormonism as with any other faith--they are entitled to their beliefs and to practise their religion as they see fit--I just wish they (and others) would not label themselves Christians, which i consider disingenous because they are not in any sense of the word. Yes they include Jesus in their bible, so does islam, but the teachings they follow are those of joseph Smith, so stick with the name mormon or Josephian or Smithian and I wont peep again.

Very well argued, and the most likely thought I've encountered on the behavior of "Jack" Mormons. Honored to have received this response!

I did generalize too far. No, I don't know about most of the population. But I can honestly say it's that way with most of the people I was raised with. I've known only one honest Mormon, one who's thought deeply about their faith and still chooses to abide with the Church. That one is my grandmother, a very simple nurse, and the truest beacon of LDS values in my experience. Her character may be the sole reason I don't actually hate the Church, and don't care to try disproving it, like so many other apostates.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you--specifically--had generalized too far. I have great respect for a person like your grandmother and the

Let's be clear. The LDS church has a history of express racisim (but that is also true of many other religions, particularly American protestant sects). The LDS history is fairly recent and has a lingering effect. The white hegemony of Utah and Idaho does not help.

The "history" of express racism is tied to not allowing blacks or others the priesthood and at this point is long removed of the church's teachings.

Here is an interesting article about the LDS church's struggles with racism.
http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2004/feat_2004-12-16.cfm


It's hardly a "struggle" with racism. In the past, the church made policies and advisements against interracial marriage and now doesn't stopped, attributed to modern revelation. It's fairly benign, without any "struggle"

You might also take a look at this website's summary of the LDS's church's current attitude towards interracial marriage.
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/family/marriage/interracial.htm

Cat-Tribes, I'm appalleda at how disingenuous this is. You advertise the site as a summary of LDS's current attitude towards interratcial marriage. Check the dates. They all come from the 50s and 60s. The church didn't adopt its preferred, more inclusive policies until he 70s (ie when Blacks were given the priesthood). It would be like me pulling up quotes of congress advocating slavery and declaiming the current US government for allowing such a practice.

This is why there needs to be COMPLETE separation of Church and State. Places like Utah and the "Deep South" are *very* religiously inclined, and that doesn't ensure a true Democratic process, in both legislation and voting.

And a lot of the people are just plain creepy. Religious zealots abound in both areas, but the difference between the "Deep South" and Utah is that the South has an abundance of hick jerk-offs who marry their siblings.
What an intelligent response were you not the one trying to FIGHT stereotypes of Mormons? Is the correct way to go about this stereotyping other people?

Mainstream Christians have a weaker moral structure, in my opinion, because of natual sin.

They believe that, if they cannot become perfect, they shouldn't try.

If we (Mormons) are wrong about perfection, at least we shall have brownie points for trying.

Faith without works is dead.
Origional sin is mainly a catholic tradition not a christian one

The Mormon religion apears to be an ad-libbed heap of hokey created by some guy who though having multiple wives would give him an excuse for infidelity. The part about the "gold tablets" is silly enough, but then they go and LOSE them? Didn't he read from something out of a hat, then refuse to show anyone else? The Mormons don't have my hate. If anything, they have my pity and disbelief. They're living proof that with enough gullible people and charismatic leadership, any old cult can become something big out in the heat-stroke plains of Utah, and radiate from there like a beacon of pure stupid.

The Mormon religion apears to be an ad-libbed heap of hokey created by some guy who though having multiple wives would give him an excuse for infidelity. The part about the "gold tablets" is silly enough, but then they go and LOSE them? Didn't he read from something out of a hat, then refuse to show anyone else? The Mormons don't have my hate. If anything, they have my pity and disbelief. They're living proof that with enough gullible people and charismatic leadership, any old cult can become something big out in the heat-stroke plains of Utah, and radiate from there like a beacon of pure stupid.
While a agree with a lot of stuff there cut out the neer flameness of the post, it is a point of view they may be gullible but that hardly makes them stupid

The Mormon religion apears to be an ad-libbed heap of hokey created by some guy who though having multiple wives would give him an excuse for infidelity. The part about the "gold tablets" is silly enough, but then they go and LOSE them? Didn't he read from something out of a hat, then refuse to show anyone else? The Mormons don't have my hate. If anything, they have my pity and disbelief. They're living proof that with enough gullible people and charismatic leadership, any old cult can become something big out in the heat-stroke plains of Utah, and radiate from there like a beacon of pure stupid.

We don't have the original stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai. We don't have the original wood cross that Jesus was crucified on. And we don't (to my knowledge) have the first copy of the Koran that Muhammed wrote.

We don't have the original stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai. We don't have the original wood cross that Jesus was crucified on. And we don't (to my knowledge) have the first copy of the Koran that Muhammed wrote.
To be fair they have had more time to loose those :p

I'm Sorry that you got the wrong part of town with the jack-mormons. I'm not sorry that you've decided to couch your ideas of the whole religion off of that.

I could cite a lot more examples of similar or worse behavior.

I could, for instance, start with the woman who was so vocal about being a shining example of how a Mormon wife should be - in dress, in manner, in everything. Oh, and constantly trying to convert us.

Later that year, she invited two men to make her airtight in the office on a Saturday (two men not her husband). It was her idea.

There seem to be a lot of jack-mormons - in fact, I believe they are the majority of people in the LDS church - it's just that they're keeping their mouths shut so the rest of the people won't notice.

We don't have the original stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai. We don't have the original wood cross that Jesus was crucified on. And we don't (to my knowledge) have the first copy of the Koran that Muhammed wrote.
No one saw the plates but one person. And after the losing of the first translation he "wasn't allowed to", aka couldn't, rewrite the first translation, it was the same story, but not in the same words. The supposed wood from the actual cross was lost in the middle ages, like everything else. But the founder of mormonism has some serious credibility problems

No one saw the plates but one person. And after the losing of the first translation he "wasn't allowed to", aka couldn't, rewrite the first translation, it was the same story, but not in the same words. The supposed wood from the actual cross was lost in the middle ages, like everything else. But the founder of mormonism has some serious credibility problems

I'm still waiting to see the stone spectacles he used to read the tablets. The spectacles and tablets are apparently re-buried under a hill in New York State.

We should go dig them up and have them examined by archaeologists. After all, if the Shroud of Turin can be examined by scientists, we should also examine other religious artifacts.

Personally, if they want to believe in all that, it's fine with me. It's just the rampant two-faced nature of the holier-than-thou crowd within the LDS church that bothers me.

My fun moment with them came in the 1970s, when Boy Scout troops in Utah were not letting black boys become Eagle scouts, because the church wouldn't let black boys become "priests" in the LDS church (males become "priests" around age 12). After a Supreme Court decision, the leader of the church "had a vision" that it was suddenly OK.

I get it. The Supreme Court must have sent God a memo, and He sent a message to Spencer Kimball personally to get with the Supreme Court decision.

Good thing we have the Supreme Court around to hold God in check.

The LDS are a bunch of loonies and have you seen their propagandist commercials? Like your life suddenly becomes better if you join the Christian-offshoot cult.

I think it was Sherlock Holmes "A Study in Scarlet" that had a WAY too long backstory about the Mormons. (No really, I forgot I was reading a Sherlock Holmes book before I was halfway through the Mormon flashback)

The LDS are a bunch of loonies and have you seen their propagandist commercials? Like your life suddenly becomes better if you join the Christian-offshoot cult.

I think it was Sherlock Holmes "The Sign of the Four" that had a WAY too long backstory about the Mormons

Well, most of the religions of the world will tell you in person that life suddenly becomes better. But I can't buy the idea that one church has the answers to making your life better.

Speaking as a Pentacostal, I know my life became better but it's not a matter of accepting my church - it's a matter of finding your own way with God. I'm not about to say that "my church is the only True Church" - which is a load of crap. Or even that "my God is better than your God" or "my holy book is better than your holy book".

You don't even have to be a Christian to find your way spiritually - but I feel that it's a good thing for most people to find something that fulfills them. Also, I can't guarantee that your life will be better - you may merely feel better.

We don't have the original stone tablets that Moses brought down from Mt. Sinai. We don't have the original wood cross that Jesus was crucified on. And we don't (to my knowledge) have the first copy of the Koran that Muhammed wrote.
I'm of the opinion that all religions are at least a little lame-brained. The problem witht he Mormons is that they have ridiculous excuses for their particular brand of nonsense. Not being able to rewrite a scripture because he forgot how it was written originally. That vision mentioned above about Eagle Scouts.

It's one thing to believe in something which requires a leap of faith. A leap of ignorance is an entirely different thing.

I could cite a lot more examples of similar or worse behavior.

I could, for instance, start with the woman who was so vocal about being a shining example of how a Mormon wife should be - in dress, in manner, in everything. Oh, and constantly trying to convert us.

Later that year, she invited two men to make her airtight in the office on a Saturday (two men not her husband). It was her idea.

[emphasis added]

Citation implies something a little more provable than anecdotal rendition. And, according to my tabulation that includes one confirmed mormon and two possible mormons. At most, that's 3 out of 11 million.

I'm no statistician, but that sure doesn't sound empirical to me.


There seem to be a lot of jack-mormons - in fact, I believe they are the majority of people in the LDS church - it's just that they're keeping their mouths shut so the rest of the people won't notice.

And you're free to believe that. If you wish to proclaim most of them as "jack" based on personal prejudice stemming from a few isolated instances (which seems to be what you're doing) then you're free to do that. Knowing quite a few LDS people, I can assure you that I've met more that are not active than that inactive (which can be related to "jack" status): many more.

Getting back to the original question Branin brought up, it might be, partly, a sampling error. The LDS church is a very social church. When one is an active member, one tends to invest a lot of time in the church. Mormons that are inactive and, thus, more likely not to be acting in accordance with church teachings are more likely to interact with nonmembers, just as a function of time. Plus there's the fact that there's an active anti-mormon community who find nothing better to do with their time than spread lies, half-truths, and distortions about the church. Add that to the fact that many just naturally look for the bad in people that are different, I understand perfectly you feeling the way you do, however unmeasured it may be.

My fun moment with them came in the 1970s, when Boy Scout troops in Utah were not letting black boys become Eagle scouts, because the church wouldn't let black boys become "priests" in the LDS church (males become "priests" around age 12). After a Supreme Court decision, the leader of the church "had a vision" that it was suddenly OK.

I get it. The Supreme Court must have sent God a memo, and He sent a message to Spencer Kimball personally to get with the Supreme Court decision.

Good thing we have the Supreme Court around to hold God in check.
[/quote]

First, get your facts about mormons straight. LDS young men do not become eligible for the rank of "priest" until they're 16 years old. It's the third office of three in the Aaronic, or lesser, priesthood, which starts at twelve. It's my understanding, then, that blacks were allowed to become teachers and deacons (the names for the other two offices) in the church.

Second, the issue you've brought up is simply a branch of the already existing discussion on the church not allowing blacks to have the priesthood until the 70s. This "Eagle Scout discrimination" was also apparently only an issue in Utah, just as renegade polygamists, which also have no clear bearing on the bahavior of the church at large.

Lastly, as you seem to not consider it possible that the prophet of the LDS church recieves revelation for the church, your criticism of how or when that revelatrion occurs is irrelevant.

I'm still waiting to see the stone spectacles he used to read the tablets. The spectacles and tablets are apparently re-buried under a hill in New York State.

We should go dig them up and have them examined by archaeologists. After all, if the Shroud of Turin can be examined by scientists, we should also examine other religious artifacts.

Personally, if they want to believe in all that, it's fine with me. It's just the rampant two-faced nature of the holier-than-thou crowd within the LDS church that bothers me.

And you'll keep waiting. Mormons aren't interested in scientific validation of their artifacts--which, by the way, are unclear as to their location (to the best of my knowledge, they're not in New York).

There are "holier-than-thou crowds" in every church, in every philosophical school of thought, in every support group. If you're really going to discredit a whole religion by the perceived snootiness of some of its members in one area, you might as well discredit every organization in the world.

Well, the people who drank on my street in Holliday and at another street in Murray (two separate locations) were not "inactive".

They seemed to spend all of their time at the local ward.

Somehow, they managed, at both locations, to drink heavily at night, and to ALWAYS put their liquor bottles in my trash cans.

So, by your definition, they were not "jack". They were active Mormons who drank.

Thirty bottles was the maximum at one time. At the Murray location, that was every family on the cul-de-sac - I met every head of household at my trash can - eight families. I don't have figures on the Holliday location, but it sure seemed the same to me.

Still think there's not a lot of secret drinking going on?

Well, the people who drank on my street in Holliday and at another street in Murray (two separate locations) were not "inactive".

They seemed to spend all of their time at the local ward.

Somehow, they managed, at both locations, to drink heavily at night, and to ALWAYS put their liquor bottles in my trash cans.

So, by your definition, they were not "jack". They were active Mormons who drank.

Thirty bottles was the maximum at one time. At the Murray location, that was every family on the cul-de-sac - I met every head of household at my trash can - eight families. I don't have figures on the Holliday location, but it sure seemed the same to me.

Still think there's not a lot of secret drinking going on?

Yes, I don't think there's a secret drinking problem going on. And the evidence tends to agrees with me.

First, there's a label problem we're obviously having. I used "inactive" and "jack" as semi-intercahngable because they are. Active members are sacrificing a lot to be in the church (time, money, personal identity, etc.). It's highly unlikely that those who are unfaithful to major teachings of the faith will remain at that level of sacrafice for too long. A Jack member will very likely be, or soon to be, inactive. The term that I want to use, I suppose, is "unfaithful". The church is against alcohol. Period. If a member or group of members are drinking alcohol, they may say they're mormon, and act like they're mormon, but they aren't really being mormon.

As says the oft-quoted scripture in James, Faith without works is dead. If they aren't being mormons, in practice, it's hardly appropriate to say they are mormons, in reality. Social opportunists, maybe. But just because I say, right now, I follow the teachings of Budda doesn't mean I do.

Also, I don't think the mass numbers of members in Utah, that you seem to imply, are drinking in secret. It just isn't statistically supported.


The major difference is that Utah is 80 percent Mormon, and Mormons are supposed to abstain from alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, and pre-marital sex. I have no data on caffeine or pre-marital sex, but many people in Utah do abstain from alcohol and tobacco: Per capita consumption of both cigarettesI and beer2 in Utah have consistently been about 45 percent lower than the national average.

YPLL=Years of Potential Life Lost

Latter-day Saints generally adhere strictly to their health code which prohibits the use of tobacco and alcohol. These practices have always shown up in national health data, which consistently rate Utah as having the lowest rates of smoking, alcohol use, lung cancer, etc. The National Institute of Mental Health ranked Utah as the second-lowest U.S. state in new inpatient admissions to state mental hospitals and the ranked Utah as having the lowest per-capita alcohol consumption. (The other religious group in the U.S. known to have health statistics comparable to Latter-day Saints are the Seventh-Day Adventists, who practice similar health laws. SDAs, however, do not form a clear majority in any geographic region, so statistics indicative of their health practices are not part of national health data sets, but some from smaller studies, many of which they have sponsored themselves.)

Both reports used standing statistical data from Utah. I tend to trust data collected over large samples of people over independent, too-small-to-be-considered-samples samples without study. I'm sorry people abused your trash can and those you thought to be active faithful members of the LDS faith were drinking secretly. But it is not indicative of a widespread problem in the mormon church.

Oh, and from a long time ago:

No one saw the plates but one person. And after the losing of the first translation he "wasn't allowed to", aka couldn't, rewrite the first translation, it was the same story, but not in the same words. The supposed wood from the actual cross was lost in the middle ages

Not quite true. In the first pages of the Book of Mormon are the testimonials of eight people who saw and hemd the plates. Three witnesses also attest to have seen visions (found in the front of the book again) securing the plates' holy origin. These tesimonies are supported by surviving, independent personal histories from all those who witnessed so.

There is the story of Martin Harris, a close associate of Joseph Smith, losing a section of the original translation. The story is that Joseph Smith was commanded not to re-translate that section becuase opponents had gotten a hold of the original translation, would change it, and defraud his new translation as fake. The idea continues that the Lord foresaw this when the record was being recorded (reported as 600BC-400AD) and commanded that another record be kept of the same time period, as an insurance policy. Since one of the two records of one time period was lost, it would (whould you believe the story) the timeline continuous even though Martin Harris lost some of the records.

The "history" of express racism is tied to not allowing blacks or others the priesthood and at this point is long removed of the church's teachings.

It's hardly a "struggle" with racism. In the past, the church made policies and advisements against interracial marriage and now doesn't stopped, attributed to modern revelation. It's fairly benign, without any "struggle"

Cat-Tribes, I'm appalleda at how disingenuous this is. You advertise the site as a summary of LDS's current attitude towards interratcial marriage. Check the dates. They all come from the 50s and 60s. The church didn't adopt its preferred, more inclusive policies until he 70s (ie when Blacks were given the priesthood). It would be like me pulling up quotes of congress advocating slavery and declaiming the current US government for allowing such a practice.

I am appalled at how disingenuous you are being. I did not and do not wish to attack the CJCLDS, but I did seek to correct a complete white wash of the Church's struggles with racism. Among other things, your overzealous apologetics are creating an adversary where you had a potential ally.

I was trying to be overly fair and cite only pro-LDS sources. The website I cited re interracial marriage portrayed iself as pro-LDS and as accurate about the CJCLDS's attitudes towards interracial marriage. It is true that the quotes in question come from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. If that was deceptive, I apologize. The official CJCLDS sources have nothing regarding either the Church's past or present attitudes towards interracial marriage. The sources cited are still actively promoted by the Church. I believe that the CJCLDS officially does not condemn interracial marriage, but I also believe from personal experience that such an attitude is prevalent among Church members. (BTW, can you cite an official revelation saying interracial marriage is now fine?)

Regardless, your protrayal of the CJCLDS entire history of racism as being only the ban on blacks in the priesthood is false. Similarly, your assertion that racist attitudes and teachings simply vanished in 1978 is false. Your own comparison of the ending of an expressly racist Church policy in 1978 ( a mere 27 years ago) with the end of slavery in the US in 1865 (140 years ago) is truly disingenuous.

I will not catalogue the past racist teachings of the CJCLDS. I stated before I was not anti-LDS and I mean it. I do not wish to provide ammunition to those who are simply prejudiced against the Church. I applaud the efforts of the Church to shed itself of racism.

But do not try to simply deny the Church's struggle with racism or claim it was "benign."

White Wash (http://www.slweekly.com/editorial/2004/feat_2004-12-16.cfm)

Deseret News: Racism still runs through LDS culture, Y. researcher says (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600116375,00.html)

11.13.04 SL Tribune:The sensitive subject of skin color (http://www.sltrib.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_article.jsp?article=2453200)

Well, Cat, then I guess it would be inappropriate for us to go into the whole thing about the Levites, and how they were "punished", eh?

I had it explained to me at the temple here in DC, by a representative of the church. It was one of the most racist things I've ever heard.

So I didn't hear it second hand, and as far as I could tell, I didn't hear it from a jack mormon.

I know a highschool student in Provo who has the misfortune of living in Utah as a non-Mormon. The Mormon kids make his life a living hell simply because he is not Mormon. Every few weeks I have to have a long talk with him explaining that he won't be a teenager forever and in a few years he will be able to escape Utah and the society that persecutes him mercilessly. It seems to me that members of "the one true religion" would go out of their way to be kind and loving to everyone, regardless, but Mormonism doesn't seem to have that effect.

The first guy I ever dated was a Mormon, he was a sweetheart and a very caring person, but apparently that was not enough to prevent him from being completely ostracized by his community and having to move to Canada in order to be himself. I have no time for that sort of attitude, and if any religion engenders such an attitude in its members, I have no time for it either. This applies to any religion.

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.

I don't hate them at all. I mean, i see them at the front door, I invite 'em in for a game of naked twister, and they run. Go figure.

16 pages.... thats a lot to read through. So I don't really know if a mormon even showed up yet. (Aside from me.) I also don't quite know if this discussion has degraded or somthing. I'll find out in a sec.

So, I am mormon. And I've met mormons I don't like.

Deseret News: Racism still runs through LDS culture, Y. researcher says (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600116375,00.html)


Maybe its because theres a shortage of blacks in Utah. We have plenty of Mexicans though. I don't mind them, at least I try not to. Meaning I've had..... dissappointing experiances with Mexicans but i also have had some with those whites.

Oooookay, I've come to the wrong place. It seems that everyone who posted in the last two pages kinda hate my kind. I'll check back later..... maybe....

Oooookay, I've come to the wrong place. It seems that everyone who posted in the last two pages kinda hate my kind. I'll check back later..... maybe....

As long as you're not going to regale us with "don't you know what the only True Church is?", I don't have a problem with you.

You guys are out of your fucking MINDS. Mormons are great! Did I mention I dated two simultaneously?

Seriously, hating ALL members of a religion is just downright stupid. As a Christian myself, I think Catholicism is more secular than religious these days. But that doesn't mean I think ALL Catholics must support child molestation. Get a grip, don't be bigoted, because if I took out "Mormon" and stuck in "blacks", I'd get hammered just for saying "blacks" first, and then for being a racist Nazi jew killing sonuvabitch. So chillax.






Pricks. :D :gundge:

HadesRulesMuch, despite the language you use, I agree, sorta.

Just because one member of a religion (or even several members) do it, doesn't mean EVERYONE of that religion does or support it.

I have a Catholic friend who had an abortion. Though I don't support the action, I don't think my friend is "evil" for it.

How many Baptist, Methodist, Muslums, etc. go against what they're supposed to be doing. Does that make them all bad, do or support those things.

Ask yourself, if you practice any sort of religion, are there people in you congregation that have gone against your religion's practices? Probably. Is there anyone perfect? No, for there has only been one perfect being to walk this earth and that was Jesus. If we were all perfect, what would be the point of gaining a mortal life?

Also you have to understand, Utah Mormons are VERY different from Mormons from else where. Utah have it easy. And what I mean is that they are the majority religion. So they let their prider get out of hand sometimes. Which is wrong, and as a member of the LDS Church I'll admit that.

Else where its very different. We're constantly being put down, but were also being watched. I know here in California, what's being said in this thread is often in the conversations of others.

I don't know if many of you know what its like to walk down the hall of your college and have people shout at you that you're evil and other mean spirited words thrown at you. Then there those that say those things but are secretly watching you, not in a stalker way. More like to see if you'd live up to the standards put upon you. Will you choose Sprite or Coke (yes, Mormons drink soda!). If you choose Sprite you're in the clear. Will you go see that new R-rated movie? If you don't, you're in the clear. I know people are constantly watching me to see if I'll slip and fall.

Unlike the many other Mormons you have used for examples, I practice what I preech. I don't drink (alcohol or caffine), nor do I smoke (the smell actually makes me sick) and I don't do drugs (unless its for medical purposes). Have I had sex yet. No I haven't, thank you very much. Do I cuss. I'd have to admit I do. I have been know to drop the s-bomb once or twice. (See, I aint' perfect).

Now I'm not saying all Mormons outside of Utah are perfect. They're aren't. We're just as human as the next person. I know plenty of Mormons who say one thing and do another. Does it bug me? YES! Do I say something about it! Heck yeah!

I guess in many ways I'm not a conventinal Mormon girl. ;) I admit when I'm wrong. (GASP!)

Yes they are a bit misguided and they believe all who are NOT mormons will not be saved or mormonism is the only way to heaven or something like that. They try to convert you time and time again trying to convince you that their way is right or something like that.

Oh and I don't hate them.

*Pulls out a list 1 mile long
Shall I start at #1 or alphabetically?
(btw I'm mormon)

just finished reading all sixteen pages, what a read. my conclusion:

1.Mormons are just like every religion in that they have the faithful members, the hypocrites, the inactive members, and so on.

2.The Mormon religion seems like a Christian religion but it is not because they do not believe in the God-head (aka Trinity, even though Trinity was never used in the Bible).
A. Also, Mormons believe you could become a God. As I see it, that little tidbit definitely takes Mormons out of the Christian race

3.Utah is heavily influenced by Mormons

4.Mormons are fun to date.

5.Their are incongruities in the Mormon religion especailly since it is a complete branch off from Christian (i.e. it is not not just a sect of Christianity, but possibly a cult).
A. These incongruities make one wonder whether the religion is divine or secular.

Thanks for all the information guys!

Im sorry but Mormons (aside from the osmoundes) are hella cool and loved all throughout Shayde! i mean ya ther just cool that way

just finished reading all sixteen pages, what a read. my conclusion:

1.Mormons are just like every religion in that they have the faithful members, the hypocrites, the inactive members, and so on.

2.The Mormon religion seems like a Christian religion but it is not because they do not believe in the God-head (aka Trinity, even though Trinity was never used in the Bible).
A. Also, Mormons believe you could become a God. As I see it, that little tidbit definitely takes Mormons out of the Christian race

3.Utah is heavily influenced by Mormons

4.Mormons are fun to date.

5.Their are incongruities in the Mormon religion especailly since it is a complete branch off from Christian (i.e. it is not not just a sect of Christianity, but possibly a cult).
A. These incongruities make one wonder whether the religion is divine or secular.

Thanks for all the information guys!

A couple of comments.

1. As noted, the problem with hypocrisy, inactive members, members who misunderstand or misapply the religion, etc, are common to pretty much all religions.

2. Utah (and to a large degree Idaho) "suffer" (so to speak) from the overconcentration of the members of one religion. Particularly when the populace is also of overwhelmingly of one race. The overconcentration creates effects which aren't necessarily inherent to the religion. (see #1 above). Also, Utah and Idaho have many good qualities, as do the citizens of both states.

3. The "are they christian" question is interesting. What is a Christian? Who decides? Many Christian sects claim to be the "one true religion." Many Christian sects claim that other sects are not Christian. For example, some claim Catholics are not Christian -- (which seems quite bizarre to me, a non-Christian).

4. There are many good things about the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-Day Saints.

5. There are (to me at least) many not-so-good things about the CJCLDS.

6. It is silly to hate or dislike all or most members of almost any religion. (There may be a few extreme exceptions.) It is definitely stupid to dislike all or most Mormons.

'Nuff Said.

Can anyone explain to me why, if we are not to judge one another but rather are commanded to leave judgment to God, why is it that Mormons put their empty liquor bottles in other people's trash cans, watch each other to see if someone slips up and drinks a coke, or harass fellow students as "evil" in the school hallway? Why are people forced to flee their homes and families if they do not conform? Seems haywire to me.

yup

Can anyone explain to me why, if we are not to judge one another but rather are commanded to leave judgment to God, why is it that Mormons put their empty liquor bottles in other people's trash cans, watch each other to see if someone slips up and drinks a coke, or harass fellow students as "evil" in the school hallway? Why are people forced to flee their homes and families if they do not conform? Seems haywire to me.
Yes we have our fakes, and our extremists, but so do all religions. Not that that is a good excuse. I apologize, on behalf of the majority.

Just like the title says. And where the devil do people here half this phsyco stuff about them.
The female ones are sluts...

a lot of christian girls are sluts. its because our stupid religion in most denominations is like "sex??? ewwwwwww even in marriage that is bad!"

Why do people hate mormons?

its simple, and i didn't read through the thread so i hope nobody else said this yet, they just added another "M" to the word morons.

You can't spell "Mormon" without "Moron".

Just like you can't spell "Crap" without "Rap".

You can't spell "Mormon" without "Moron".

Just like you can't spell "Crap" without "Rap".
You also can't spell "yellow" without "'ello", or "mobile" without "bile".

I think we're onto something!

Wait a minute... You can't spell "Homosexual" without "Mosexual"...

Hmm...