NationStates Jolt Archive

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.
Same reason that most hate is out there ... lack of understanding

Islam seems to be spawning a lot of terrorists, misogynists, homophobes, and other hatefull people. Granted not all muslims are scum, but the religion seems to breed more than it's fair share.

Islam seems to be spawning a lot of terrorists, misogynists, homophobes, and other hatefull people. Granted not all muslims are scum, but the religion seems to breed more than it's fair share.
Oh, and Christianity doesn't? The KKK, Fred Phelp's group, and a whole other assortment of groups come to mind...

I don't hate Muslims, but I think there are a lot of bad things about extremist Islam. But I also think there are a lot of bad things about our own various breeds of American-grown Christian extremism. I distrust extremism in faith, particularly when tied to government, but I'll upgrade distrust to hate when that extremism causes planes to get crashed into buildings. Or when it causes the Oklahoma Federal building to get zapped.

And I am also capable of distinguishing the subtle differences between Muslims. For example, the folks who have their mosque down the block and the guy who runs the local Hallal butchershop are not the same guys who are riding around in Land Cruisers in Afghanistan and plotting the end of the west. And, just thought I'd mention it, I detested the Taliban for blowing up stone Buddhas and mistreating their womenfolk way before the whole "harboring al Qaeda" biz hit the fan.

Oh, and Christianity doesn't? The KKK, Fred Phelp's group, and a whole other assortment of groups come to mind...
Exactly seems to be a religious thing

Christianity seems to be spawning a lot of terrorists, misogynists, homophobes, and other hatefull people. Granted not all christians are scum, but the religion seems to breed more than it's fair share.
:(

Excellent question, people are afraid of anyone different than them. It sounds stupid but ignorance and stupidity breed these kind of thoughts.

Commies,
One Word:
CRUSADES

Plus I know a muslim girl, yea I think the headress is a little weird, but it's their religion, I respect that. She's pretty cool too.

Same reason that most hate is out there ... lack of understanding

BINGO!

No need for further discussion.

BINGO!

No need for further discussion.
YAY I got it! :D

It is not that we hate muslims its that muslims(not all muslims) hate us, and we are just responding to their hatred.

We seem to be entering the dark ages again, but it's the muslim religion, not Christianity this time.

IMO, mostly that the fact lots of wrong teachings going around in religious schools all over the world. And Islam is very strong in 3rd world nations. Lack of knowledge for their and our part. And they live in a very closed minded world.

They don't think similarly to you do.

It is not that we hate muslims its that muslims(not all muslims) hate us, and we are just responding to their hatred.
And you wonder why some atheists get upset :p

I don't hate Islam or Muslims.

I strongly dislike anyone who, with malice aforethought and direct intent (which, imo, separates the good from the bad.. like the difference between killing someone in a car accident by complete accident and murdering them in cold blood), attacks innocent people or attempts to kill them.

That type of person, regardless of race/creed/ideology etc., must be stopped.

Therefore, I am strongly against terrorism/terrorists and the insurgency in Iraq. If those people don't want the majority to rule, tough beans. Don't kill a man because he wants to vote. And don't kill the person who is there to help your country rebuild after kicking out one of the worst figures of the 20th century.

Its becuz theyre a barbacic pagan ppl trying to hide witin the ranks of the true god, Jehovah. And worst of all they dont groom.

I, for one, don't hate Muslims.

In fact, I LOVE all those Muslims who are bravely and loudly standing up against the Islamic PsychoFundie terrorists, and are striving to hunt them down like dogs wherever they hide and bring them to terrible, harsh bloody justice, so that they no longer sully their religion's name in the eyes of the world.

Yeah, I love BOTH of those guys.

Oh, and Christianity doesn't? The KKK, Fred Phelp's group, and a whole other assortment of groups come to mind...
Sure, but as a percentage of the people, Islam is the most violent religion. I'd say that the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and the US are peaceful citizens, but in the Middle East, it's a different story. I would say, just estimating, that 25% of Middle East Muslims would kill an innocent American or Jew if they had the chance. The KKK is horrible, but as a ratio to the billions of peaceful Christians, it is nothing.

We seem to be entering the dark ages again, but it's the muslim religion, not Christianity this time.
Don't get too comfy...not while Bush ties faith based funding into his spending program, and pushes faith-based policies (like abstinense programs instead of contraceptive programs) overseas. I thought you yanks (sorry Greedy, I shouldn't assume you are from the states) had separation of church and state? Or is this the rise of a state religion in the U.S?

IMO, mostly that the fact lots of wrong teachings going around in religious schools all over the world.
Yes, every religion has their fools and the fools that listen to them.

And Islam is very strong in 3rd world nations. Lack of knowledge for their and our part. And they live in a very closed minded world. Religion is generally popular with the poor, because it offers a way out of their misery...suffer now, rejoice in the afterlife. ALL religions offer this. Ignorance is the problem, not religion. Ignorant people will turn to easy explanaitions, and religion provides them...believe in this and all will be well. Just don't examine it too closely. Unfortunately, the rise of fundamentalism in the world is not confined to Islam...just look at the resurgence of the religious right in the U.S (and even in my country of Canada). What happened to the grand old days of "God is dead?" Sigh.

They don't think similarly to you do.Is this necessarily a bad thing? Plenty of people don't think the way we do...some of them are probably your neighbours. This in itself is not an explanaition or a valid reason for the blind hatred of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, women, pirates in beards etc etc etc...we use our hatred to separate ourselves from the rest of the world, so we can justify not caring about what happens to those outside our personal spheres. Religion allows us to codify these beliefs and feel good about them. Pah.

:Couch:Racist:Cough:

Seriously that was the largest demonstration of racism I have seen since i saw KKK people. I hope you were being sarcastic.

The Muslim's laws in the Middle East is that you convert the person to Muslim or you have to kill them.
With that kind of law they made themselves the ememy.

Sign,
Marines 911 :sniper:

Sure, but as a percentage of the people, Islam is the most violent religion. I'd say that the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and the US are peaceful citizens, but in the Middle East, it's a different story. I would say, just estimating, that 25% of Middle East Muslims would kill an innocent American or Jew if they had the chance. The KKK is horrible, but as a ratio to the billions of peaceful Christians, it is nothing.
I think you would be surprised … (also cant hurt that Christians specially over here have it easy … have a feeling they would be in same place roles reversed irregardless of what their faith teaches(bah most Christians don’t honestly know what their holy book teaches anyways)

The Muslim's laws in the Middle East is that you convert the person to Muslim or you have to kill them.
With that kind of law they made themselves the ememy.

Sign,
Marines 911 :sniper:
Really? wow funny how that is not stated anywhere

I think you would be surprised … (also cant hurt that Christians specially over here have it easy … have a feeling they would be in same place roles reversed irregardless of what their faith teaches(bah most Christians don’t honestly know what their holy book teaches anyways)
I'm pro-Israel and left-wing, so it's a delicate balance.

Sure, but as a percentage of the people, Islam is the most violent religion. I'd say that the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and the US are peaceful citizens, but in the Middle East, it's a different story. I would say, just estimating, that 25% of Middle East Muslims would kill an innocent American or Jew if they had the chance. The KKK is horrible, but as a ratio to the billions of peaceful Christians, it is nothing.
What about the billions of peaceful Muslims that have not committed any violent crimes? I don't judge Christians by the Inquisition, nor should you judge Muslims by the modern day version of such. Plenty of 'Christians' are criminals too...that isn't due to their religion, it is due to individual choice. When it becomes a wider phenoma of state-sponsored violence, religion is a good way to keep violent factions focussed on a common enemy. Bush himself says, "God is on our side". Does this mean the terrible things that were done to prisoners in Iraq (and now allegedly in Guantanamo) stem from CHRISTIAN values?? Absolutely not! Nor is violence a Islamic, Jewish, or Buddhist value...though each of those religions have at some point hand members who were violent.

As well, your statistics are based purely on opinion. Opinion does not make for the greatest source of statistics. I could say that I feel 96% of Christians are probably wearing dirty underwear right now, but it doesn't make it so. I hope.

Almo:

25 percent? Numbers out of nowhere. Richard Clarke, former National Security Advisor, puts the numbers more like this:

1.5 billion people in the Islamic world.
50,000-200,000 estimated in militant Jihadist groups.

That's a tiny fraction of a percent.

Now the Muslims who are killing Christians in Iraq, that's another matter altogether. Religion can almost be stripped out of that equation: You've got people in a nation fighting against occupying troops. I think you'd get a large number of people turning out to fight an occupying force of any faith.

I really don't like people who don't like Muslims because of the actions of a few Muslims, but...I know many Muslims, (the majority of my friends are Muslims) and a few of them have a deep dislike of Jews because of the actions of Zionists in Israel and Palestine (needless to say, these ones aren't my friends). To me, this seems completely hypocritical; they of all people should know what its like to be discriminated against because of what a tiny minority have done.

Just human nature I guess.

The Muslim's laws in the Middle East is that you convert the person to Muslim or you have to kill them.
With that kind of law they made themselves the ememy.

Sign,
Marines 911 :sniper:
Wow...I wonder how it is then that there are sizeable populations of Christians in Indonesia, Hindus in Pakistan etc, etc. Maybe they have been overlooked for "termination"? Yikes! Better hush up!

Which nation has legislated this law by the way?

first off
A) A jihad can only be fought with the decree of scholors and such since we dont really have an organised leader Bin Laden is a liar
B) It is strictly forbiden to atack NON_PARTICIPANTS (i.e most women and children)
C) Judaism had alot of laws that say "it is okay to kill christians." That doesnt mean every Jewish person will do that. (this is from the talmud and i am not anti-semetic in anyway)
D) The people of those countries fear spread of western culture (prn, booze and such) since it is a grave sin.

So if we stay minding our own business or doing stuff diplomaticaly OR AT LEAST WITH PROOF. Then the muslims will have less rsent and so will we. And where i live i havent met anyone who "hates muslims).

I really don't like people who don't like Muslims because of the actions of a few Muslims, but...I know many Muslims, (the majority of my friends are Muslims) and a few of them have a deep dislike of Jews because of the actions of Zionists in Israel and Palestine (needless to say, these ones aren't my friends). To me, this seems completely hypocritical; they of all people should know what its like to be discriminated against because of what a tiny minority have done.

Just human nature I guess.


i think its the mentality that they did it so why cant this group. Very foolish.

Therefore, I am strongly against terrorism/terrorists and the insurgency in Iraq. If those people don't want the majority to rule, tough beans. Don't kill a man because he wants to vote. And don't kill the person who is there to help your country rebuild after kicking out one of the worst figures of the 20th century.

To be fair, it's only been two centuries since the Western world began to follow these principles. I find it wrong to force them on an under-developed culture like those of the Middle East for two reasons:

1. They simply are not culturally advanced enough to handle them. The Industrial Revolution, especially during the early and middle 19th century, were what spurred our development of Utilitarianism, but the Middle East never went through such a period. It's like giving a cure for smallpox to a sick caveman, it'll still save him, but he won't know how to use it unless you're there to teach him. While this is a noble gesture, we would have to stay in the Middle East while we wait for their culture to develop to the point where they can handle it. This could take decades or even centuries.

2. Self-determination is one of the few things you can simply not take from a man and be considered moral under Enlightened thinking. Forcing something on anyone is one of the most horrible things we could do, especially since since the Middle East is in no way under our authority.

While it's true that the Semetic Muslim nations were once greatly more culturally and technically advanced than the Christian Europeon nations, something happened along the way (not the Crusades, but those are a symptom of the problem) that put the Europeons irreversably in the lead, most likely us achieving Industrialization and thus Enlightenment first (remember: not all history is equal), which lead to the modern Western World of republics and capitalism (though there is a current trend towards corporate and national neo-mercantilism).

Oh, and Christianity doesn't? The KKK, Fred Phelp's group, and a whole other assortment of groups come to mind...
Note that I never said any religion's hands were clean. Still, in nations with large muslim populations you find such things as honor killings, homosexuals being put to death, death threats (often carried out) agaisnt apostates, etc. The bible belt is bad, but not that bad.

Sure, but as a percentage of the people, Islam is the most violent religion. I'd say that the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and the US are peaceful citizens, but in the Middle East, it's a different story. I would say, just estimating, that 25% of Middle East Muslims would kill an innocent American or Jew if they had the chance. The KKK is horrible, but as a ratio to the billions of peaceful Christians, it is nothing.

Arab Muslims make up less than 15% of all Muslims.

First things first. Government and Religion should be totally seperate. Laws should be passed based on what is good for the living people, not who some people worship. Religion has no place in government anymore. More people have died in wars over religion than any other reason.

That said, here is my problem with Islam and it's followers. I don't pretend to know everything about thier beliefs but I have looked into it and from what I can tell, it is a religion based on jealousy, pride, envy, and mysoginy(sp?).

The way I see it is that a guy named Mohammed claims that Allah told him his laws. Mohammed spread them, and here we are. A religion full of women hating, bombing, gang raping, honor killing, infidel haters in pajamas. Yes, I am making fun of thier clothes. Sue me.

Anyway, The hijab the women wear is to show that they are not vain and that they have put aside thier vanity to honor alah. This is especially amusing when you see them with plucked eyebrows, flowery clothes, and doused in cheap perfume. If they truly gave up on vanity they would wear nothing but Burkha's.

The hijab was taken from a lyric in a song in thier bible, the quran. Yes it is a song lyric much the same as 'I'm too sexy for my hat.'.

I have little tolerance for religion in government. and I have serious doubts that Islam should even count as a religion. It seems more of a way for weak men with low self esteem to keep thier women in line than it does a religion. Unless of course most religions will allow you to gang rape a neighbours daughter if he embaresses you. That is allowed under Sharia law.

Anyway, I say close the borders, changes, laws, and make North America a religion free state in its government. People want to worship, they can, but our politicians should not consider it when passing a law.

Really? wow funny how that is not stated anywhere

It stated here: http://xrnet.org/sharialaws04.htm

Read it and learn!

Sign,
Marines 911

It stated here: http://xrnet.org/sharialaws04.htm

Read it and learn!

Sign,
Marines 911

You tell em!

:Couch:Racist:Cough:

Seriously that was the largest demonstration of racism I have seen since i saw KKK people. I hope you were being sarcastic.
Islam isn't a race. It's a religion.

Note that I never said any religion's hands were clean. Still, in nations with large muslim populations you find such things as honor killings, homosexuals being put to death, death threats (often carried out) agaisnt apostates, etc. The bible belt is bad, but not that bad.

Well, for one thing the majority of 'Muslim nations' are in the developing world and there seems to be a relationship between economic advancement and liberal attitudes. Only over the past hundred years or so have 'Christian nations' begun to accept the rights of women, homosexuals, ethnic minorities, etc and generally become more compassionate. It would make sense - therefore - to predict that if the Islamic world is allowed to develop economically religious extremism will subside and more liberal attitudes to the world around them will prevail.

It stated here: http://xrnet.org/sharialaws04.htm

Read it and learn!

Sign,
Marines 911
and that has what to do with killing for non conversion?

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.

No, I don't hate all Muslims.

I'll hate *anyone*, muslim or not, who would give aid, comfort, or sympathy to any of the groups directly or indirectly associated with al-Qaeda.

It stated here: http://xrnet.org/sharialaws04.htm

Read it and learn!

Sign,
Marines 911

Always check the front-page of linked websites.

Want to link us to somewhere that isn't a fundementalist, militant christian site? Preferably a source of law for the country in question?

seems to me people are more willing to give muslims the benefit of the doubt and they can even "see why" they attack westerners...... i know most muslims aren't terrorist scum..... but why aren't they speaking out??? where's the anger there?

What about the billions of peaceful Muslims that have not committed any violent crimes? I don't judge Christians by the Inquisition, nor should you judge Muslims by the modern day version of such. Plenty of 'Christians' are criminals too...that isn't due to their religion, it is due to individual choice. When it becomes a wider phenoma of state-sponsored violence, religion is a good way to keep violent factions focussed on a common enemy. Bush himself says, "God is on our side". Does this mean the terrible things that were done to prisoners in Iraq (and now allegedly in Guantanamo) stem from CHRISTIAN values?? Absolutely not! Nor is violence a Islamic, Jewish, or Buddhist value...though each of those religions have at some point hand members who were violent.

As well, your statistics are based purely on opinion. Opinion does not make for the greatest source of statistics. I could say that I feel 96% of Christians are probably wearing dirty underwear right now, but it doesn't make it so. I hope.
Billions? As in plural? The highest credible estimate of the number of muslims is 1.6 billion. Yes. Most are decent people, but a whole hell of a lot are violent. Look at some of their cultural institutions. Honor killings, death fatwas on apostates, not nice stuff. Just about all christian cultures have moved beyond such things. Many muslim cultures have not.

Wow...I wonder how it is then that there are sizeable populations of Christians in Indonesia, Hindus in Pakistan etc, etc. Maybe they have been overlooked for "termination"? Yikes! Better hush up!

Which nation has legislated this law by the way?
There have been documented instances in Indonesia of muslim backwater villages attacking and forcing christian backwater villages to convert or die. These are not in the distant past either. Also non-muslims in parts of Pakistan live their lives in constant fear.

Billions? As in plural? The highest credible estimate of the number of muslims is 1.6 billion. Yes. Most are decent people, but a whole hell of a lot are violent. Look at some of their cultural institutions. Honor killings, death fatwas on apostates, not nice stuff. Just about all christian cultures have moved beyond such things. Many muslim cultures have not.
Though you are seeing a difference in response and blaming it on the religion … what about things like average income … situation … location. All the rest of the things that could hold common ties and create a more “violent” response THEY are not in the same situation now as other religions necessarily are (at least large portions of their numbers) along with a 100 other factors …

Just about all christian cultures have moved beyond such things. Many muslim cultures have not.

Please read my post about economic development and its relationship with liberal enlightenment!

allow you to gang rape a neighbours daughter if he embaresses you. That is allowed under Sharia law.
WRONG. You are not alowed to rape anyone under Sharia Law. There are simply certain radical clerics that interpret certain passages to mean that if you consider someone to have dishonoured Allah sufficiently then you have the right to treat them as nothing more than an animal. So if you're OK with bestiality (which even the Taliban were not) then sure, go ahead and commit rape. But I'm sure most Muslims will point out your comment came from your ringpiece. :)

Anyway, I say close the borders, changes, laws, and make North America a religion free state in its government. People want to worship, they can, but our politicians should not consider it when passing a law.
God yes. Please close the borders. Don't export goods either. It's no bad thing to limit religious practices either. You may also want to limit the activities of some of your citizens too. Some ethnic groups could still potentially be a threat so you might want to 'deal with them' too. In fact, why not pass a law that states that the year is 1936 and get your idiot President to dye his hair Black and grow a little square moustache? :rolleyes:

I hope I'm being as ironic as I hope you are. Ummm...

I'll hate *anyone*, muslim or not, who would give aid, comfort, or sympathy to any of the groups directly or indirectly associated with al-Qaeda.

Yeah, including the stupidity and short-sightedness of the CIA supporting Bin Laden back in the 80s when he was fighting against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Hopefully they've now learned that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is certainly not true

Well, for one thing the majority of 'Muslim nations' are in the developing world and there seems to be a relationship between economic advancement and liberal attitudes. Only over the past hundred years or so have 'Christian nations' begun to accept the rights of women, homosexuals, ethnic minorities, etc and generally become more compassionate. It would make sense - therefore - to predict that if the Islamic world is allowed to develop economically religious extremism will subside and more liberal attitudes to the world around them will prevail.
Yeah, that's probably true. It also hinges on allowing foreign ideas and influences in to compete with the old ideas.

Yeah, including the stupidity and short-sightedness of the CIA supporting Bin Laden back in the 80s when he was fighting against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Hopefully they've now learned that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is certainly not true

The CIA couldn't find its own ass with both hands. If they step forward and say, "we have a plan", be sure to do something else.

I hate Muslims simply because they are the source of all of my troubles. President Bush is a great man. He is the only one who seems to understand that the world will be a better place with all the Muslims wiped off the face of it. Whenever a Muslim walks by my window, I shout at him about how he's a disgrace to Jesus and then throw rocks at him.

WRONG. You are not alowed to rape anyone under Sharia Law. There are simply certain radical clerics that interpret certain passages to mean that if you consider someone to have dishonoured Allah sufficiently then you have the right to treat them as nothing more than an animal. So if you're OK with bestiality (which even the Taliban were not) then sure, go ahead and commit rape. But I'm sure most Muslims will point out your comment came from your ringpiece. :)


God yes. Please close the borders. Don't export goods either. It's no bad thing to limit religious practices either. You may also want to limit the activities of some of your citizens too. Some ethnic groups could still potentially be a threat so you might want to 'deal with them' too. In fact, why not pass a law that states that the year is 1936 and get your idiot President to dye his hair Black and grow a little square moustache? :rolleyes:

I hope I'm being as ironic as I hope you are. Ummm...
You aren't allowed to rape, but you can't be prosecuted unless she has four male muslim witnesses. So, the permission is implied.

Yeah, that's probably true. It also hinges on allowing foreign ideas and influences in to compete with the old ideas.

Absolutely, but until the problem of 3rd world poverty is addressed this isn't going to happen.

In the long term the war on terrorism can only win if it is fought alongside a war on poverty and injustice (i.e Israel/Palestine). Unfortunately I don't think George W Bush is able to understand this.

Absolutely, but until the problem of 3rd world poverty isn't addressed this isn't going to happen.

If you believe that any of the 19 hijackers from 911 were living in poverty at any time in their life, then you're completely stupid.

If you believe that any of the 19 hijackers from 911 were living in poverty at any time in their life, then you're completely stupid.

And if you fail to understand why the millions of impoverished in the Islamic world aren't especially sympathetic to a few thousand Americans being blown up you're equally stupid.

I hate Muslims simply because they are the source of all of my troubles. President Bush is a great man. He is the only one who seems to understand that the world will be a better place with all the Muslims wiped off the face of it. Whenever a Muslim walks by my window, I shout at him about how he's a disgrace to Jesus and then throw rocks at him.

I really, really hope you're being sarcastic.

Browning,

The poverty argument isn't addressed to individual terrorists. It's addressed to the nations that harbor terror groups. If you've got a wealthier nation, if you've got a nation that's receiving U.S. aid, or a nation that's more economically and diplomatically tied to the West, then you've got a nation that's less likely to harbor jihadists, as Afghanistan did under the Taliban.

There have been documented instances in Indonesia of muslim backwater villages attacking and forcing christian backwater villages to convert or die. These are not in the distant past either. Also non-muslims in parts of Pakistan live their lives in constant fear.

The one's I can recall back of my head in the south-east Asia region,

Riots in Indonesia 1998, Malaysian Riots May 1969.

Most in the backwater villages, Which represent 70% of Muslim Malays(not too sure about Indonesia).

Lots of mass rapes, mass murders, forced conversions, burning of churches, that sort of bunch. I personally knew a family that was wiped out during Indonesian 1998 riot. :(

Absolutely, but until the problem of 3rd world poverty is addressed this isn't going to happen.

In the long term the war on terrorism can only win if it is fought alongside a war on poverty and injustice (i.e Israel/Palestine). Unfortunately I don't think George W Bush is able to understand this.
So what do you propose we do to end the injustice in Israel? Exterminate the palestinians? That's a little extreme, don't you think?

many of the arab muslims live atop virtual goldmines (yes oil) and if they are in poverty it's because the homocidal dictators they have running the place are allowing them to starve so they can build palaces and bombs. and it isn't the rest of the world's fault that they are poor either. it's up to the real muslims to take their religion and they're countries back because we nonmuslims can't help thinking the stuff we do even though we try

and anyway, look at all the aid given to the largest muslim country in the world (indonesia). is it the west who hates muslims???? i think it's really the muslims who hate us. as far as america is concerned, they started it

I hate Muslims simply because they are the source of all of my troubles. President Bush is a great man. He is the only one who seems to understand that the world will be a better place with all the Muslims wiped off the face of it. Whenever a Muslim walks by my window, I shout at him about how he's a disgrace to Jesus and then throw rocks at him.
I find your utter hatred disgusting, as well as your devotion to the worst President in history. Would you want me eliminated for sharing my opinion? If you say yes, you're no better than a Nazi.

Its becuz theyre a barbacic pagan ppl trying to hide witin the ranks of the true god, Jehovah. And worst of all they dont groom.

...

Ignorant Moron.

Anyhoo, I used to live in TWO Muslims countries(Bangladesh and Pakistan), and the people there are very friendly. They may not have much, but they are nice. Rich Christians, on the other hand, are mean and spit on poor people. In Islam, you HAVE to help the poor. I am friends with many muslims, Jews, buddhists, protestants, catholics, atheists, and hindu's, and I don't hate any religion. I hate the EXTREMISTS of all religion's, but I believe all Religiong's have their good and strong points.

Also, I'm thinking about converting to Islam when I get older. I'm looking at other religions too, but Islam seems to be the best choice for me(either that or Buddhism.)

Oh, and Christianity doesn't? The KKK, Fred Phelp's group, and a whole other assortment of groups come to mind...
Name the last MAJOR incident that the KKK commited with more than ten deaths.

Browning,

The poverty argument isn't addressed to individual terrorists. It's addressed to the nations that harbor terror groups. If you've got a wealthier nation, if you've got a nation that's receiving U.S. aid, or a nation that's more economically and diplomatically tied to the West, then you've got a nation that's less likely to harbor jihadists, as Afghanistan did under the Taliban.

It's not even that - it's that with economic development comes improved education, understanding, and awareness of the world around you. Hence the decline of religion in the developed world. Once upon a time we all also hated homosexuals/non-Christians because the local Priest told us that was what God wanted us to do. Once the Islamic world start developing faster the influence of religious extremism will subside.

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.
I don't hate muslims, however I do have true antipathy towards traditional Islam. It's a religion of the sword ... "convert to Islam or die."

So what do you propose we do to end the injustice in Israel? Exterminate the palestinians? That's a little extreme, don't you think?
We could try giving them their land back? It's always baffled me why the Americans are so keen for "Da Oirish" to have their poxy bit of worthless land back, but the very thought of the Palestinians getting their annexed land back is abhorrent. Oh wait... it's because they don't have a massive amount of descendents in the USA isn't it? Silly me...

Was it this thread where someone was going on about countries that harbor terrorists? If so, then I'd like to see the Royal Navy allowed a few significant air strikes in Boston, Massachusets please.

*cough*IRA*cough*INLA*cough*Sinn Fein*cough*Noraid*

;)

Islam seems to be spawning a lot of terrorists, misogynists, homophobes, and other hatefull people. Granted not all muslims are scum, but the religion seems to breed more than it's fair share.


Isn't America spawing these too? It's like you're describing the gun-toting white pride right wingers.

It's living conditions, lack of education and ignorance that originate the morons that we see today in both worlds.

If the US stopped butting in the affairs of the middle east, including the israeli-palestinian situation which empovers and kills muslims, and stopped invading countries for oil (I dare you to deny this), no hatred would be generated.

As for the white pride bastards, they are just fucking ignorant morons.

I don't hate muslims, however I do have true antipathy towards traditional Islam. It's a religion of the sword ... "convert to Islam or die."
Something we lovely clean-living Western Christians could never be accused of, right?

Name the last MAJOR incident that the KKK commited with more than ten deaths.
One doesn't come to mind. That's not the point; the point is that all religions have their extemists, and to completely persecute and hate all of those of the religion for the acts of a few is ridiculous.

It is not that we hate muslims its that muslims(not all muslims) hate us, and we are just responding to their hatred.

or ViseVersa.

I don't hate muslims, however I do have true antipathy towards traditional Islam. It's a religion of the sword ... "convert to Islam or die."

Islam is as much a religion of the Sword as is Christianity. The Inquisistion, the crusades, or Albigensian Crusade which wiped out the Cathars anyone?

The only time the Muslims fought a holy war to convert people was the crusades. Because the Crusaders invaded.

Oh, and Christianity doesn't? The KKK, Fred Phelp's group, and a whole other assortment of groups come to mind...

I despise Christianity and Islam for the same reasons: they denigrate reason and life on earth in favor of faith, obedience to a mythical entity, and the hope of reward after death.

We could try giving them their land back? It's always baffled me why the Americans are so keen for "Da Oirish" to have their poxy bit of worthless land back, but the very thought of the Palestinians getting their annexed land back is abhorrent. Oh wait... it's because they don't have a massive amount of descendents in the USA isn't it? Silly me...

Was it this thread where someone was going on about countries that harbor terrorists? If so, then I'd like to see the Royal Navy allowed a few significant air strikes in Boston, Massachusets please.

*cough*IRA*cough*INLA*cough*Sinn Fein*cough*Noraid*

;)
Their land? Didn't they leave Israel voluntarily when Israel's arab neighbors invaded? They gave up all right to "their" land when they chose not to defend it but rather wait for the Jews to be pushed into the sea so they could claim the spoils.

So what do you propose we do to end the injustice in Israel? Exterminate the palestinians? That's a little extreme, don't you think?

Sarcasm....lowest form of wit...springs to mind!

But seriously, the Palestinian question is used by Al Qaeda recruiters to their great advantage. Evidence that the West hates Muslims? Allowing Israel's illegal and immoral occupation of Palestine to continue. Until there's a peaceful resolution to that conflict it's just another excuse for a deluded Islamic fanatic to blow himself up and murder US soldiers / Israeli bus passengers / Jewish worshippers / Iraqi policmen etc

I just detest religion in general. As far as I can see, it is the source of so many of the world's problems. The whole Middle Eastern situation .. the Irish problem .. all caused because of religious conflict.

In my eyes, religion is nothing more than an excuse for things which people don't understand, and a veil employed to legitimise bigotry and hatred of various shapes and forms. Hardly its intended purpose is it?

Don't get too comfy...not while Bush ties faith based funding into his spending program, and pushes faith-based policies (like abstinense programs instead of contraceptive programs) overseas. I thought you yanks (sorry Greedy, I shouldn't assume you are from the states) had separation of church and state? Or is this the rise of a state religion in the U.S?

.

No Idea. I'm not American. I'm Malaysian. Probably can say one of the leading moderate muslim nations, enforced by the religious departments in the government. However if we get ourselves a screwed up religious leader who doesn't believe in moderation.. It's going to get very screwey. :p It's a continous political struggle in my country for moderation.


Yes, every religion has their fools and the fools that listen to them.
.

Yes, but this time, its really massive. Especially when the northern backward states rejoices when a terrorist attack is successfully carried out, and they hang pictures of Osama Bin Laden on the wall in the restaurants like a hero.


Is this necessarily a bad thing? Plenty of people don't think the way we do...some of them are probably your neighbours. This in itself is not an explanaition or a valid reason for the blind hatred of Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Jews, women, pirates in beards etc etc etc...we use our hatred to separate ourselves from the rest of the world, so we can justify not caring about what happens to those outside our personal spheres. Religion allows us to codify these beliefs and feel good about them. Pah.

There's some that would go as far as saying that if your not a muslim, your a infidel, worse than a dog.

Plus, their way of thinking is different. They live in a different society, where lots of their values are very different from ours. Very fundamentalist to the core. To them it's all about Allah, their life, their passion, their all.

So much so that my sister got chased around a town by an angry religous mob because she wore a sleeveless shirt.

Isn't America spawing these too? It's like you're describing the gun-toting white pride right wingers.

It's living conditions, lack of education and ignorance that originate the morons that we see today in both worlds.

If the US stopped butting in the affairs of the middle east, including the israeli-palestinian situation which empovers and kills muslims, and stopped invading countries for oil (I dare you to deny this), no hatred would be generated.

As for the white pride bastards, they are just fucking ignorant morons.
As for the white pride folks, they aren't responsible for even a quarter of the terrorism that muslim fundies commit. As for invading for oil, we won't ever recoup the money spent on the invasion and occupation from selling Iraqi oil.

I, for one, don't hate Muslims.

In fact, I LOVE all those Muslims who are bravely and loudly standing up against the Islamic PsychoFundie terrorists, and are striving to hunt them down like dogs wherever they hide and bring them to terrible, harsh bloody justice, so that they no longer sully their religion's name in the eyes of the world.

Yeah, I love BOTH of those guys.
LOL.

good one.

It is not that we hate muslims its that muslims(not all muslims) hate us, and we are just responding to their hatred.
or Viseversa.

I'd like to see the Royal Navy allowed a few significant air strikes in Boston, Massachusets please.
Me too ... as long as they take out the amoral opportunist Kerry while they're at it. :D

Their land? Didn't they leave Israel voluntarily when Israel's arab neighbors invaded? They gave up all right to "their" land when they chose not to defend it but rather wait for the Jews to be pushed into the sea so they could claim the spoils.
Ahh, you mean defend their land against Israeli bullets with the ploughshare and this "Muslim Sword" I keep reading so much about? If I recall correctly the British governors took all the Palestinians weapons when they annexed the country, for fear of "a native revolt". And within days of this these same weapons were turned on Palestinians by Jews who had lived in the region in relative harmony for years.

I suggest you take a good look at the history of the region. I'd suggest Joe Sacco's* excellent "Palestine" because it's written by an American and it's the form of a graphic novel which makes it quite easy to envisage while maintaining perspective and often quite grisly imagery.

*not the ex NHL player, the journalist and illustrator.

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.
I for one, do not hate Islam, Muslims or Islamic nations. I hate Islamic terrorism, radical fundamentalism, and racism.

It's not even that - it's that with economic development comes improved education, understanding, and awareness of the world around you. Hence the decline of religion in the developed world. Once upon a time we all also hated homosexuals/non-Christians because the local Priest told us that was what God wanted us to do. Once the Islamic world start developing faster the influence of religious extremism will subside.

Short-term effects vs. long-term effects. I agree with you on this, I'm just saying that changing economics can reduce terror in the short-run as well as over a generation. I mean, look at the Saudis. Like it or not, they are dependent on the U.S., same as any business needs its customer-base. Because of this, as a nation, they've been an ally. Now you get individual Saudis who have it out for the West, and they have to relocate to Afghanistan or Pakistan or other areas with weaker ties to the West.

Ahh, you mean defend their land against Israeli bullets with the ploughshare and this "Muslim Sword" I keep reading so much about? If I recall correctly the British governors took all the Palestinians weapons when they annexed the country, for fear of "a native revolt". And within days of this these same weapons were turned on Palestinians by Jews who had lived in the region in relative harmony for years.

I suggest you take a good look at the history of the region. I'd suggest Joe Sacco's* excellent "Palestine" because it's written by an American and it's the form of a graphic novel which makes it quite easy to envisage while maintaining perspective and often quite grisly imagery.

*not the ex NHL player, the journalist and illustrator.
The muslims who remained in Israel are prospering. The muslims who left are suffering (mainly because they refuse to seek peace and settle for part of the land). There are muslims in the Israeli governement for chrissakes. Those who left don't want to live in peace with the Jews, they want to exterminate them. Note the many attacks on Jewish women and children. A true freedom fighter would hit his enemie's government and military assets, not his wife and kids.

Short-term effects vs. long-term effects. I agree with you on this, I'm just saying that changing economics can reduce terror in the short-run as well as over a generation. I mean, look at the Saudis. Like it or not, they are dependent on the U.S., same as any business needs its customer-base. Because of this, as a nation, they've been an ally. Now you get individual Saudis who have it out for the West, and they have to relocate to Afghanistan or Pakistan or other areas with weaker ties to the West.
An ally who has consistently funded anti-western terrorists. Those kinds of allies we don't need.

Name the last MAJOR incident that the KKK commited with more than ten deaths.

In fact, name five conflicts in the world that don't involve Muslims. That religion is at the center of just about everything bad that is happening in the world. Maybe that's what engenders such distrust and dislike of Muslims by the rest of the world.

They may well be at the stage Christians, read Catholics, were at when the Crusades were at their peak, so we should cut them a break. But why. They should have learned the lessons of those times and built on them. Not repeated them. That's what history is all about. Maybe their inablility or unwillingness to join the developing world is what makes them so unlikeable.

Why do people hate Muslims? Maybe it's the ignorance their culture maintains and seems to encourage? Maybe it's the hypocrisy of the religion. Maybe it's the isolation they maintain from the rest of the community. Maybe it's because a lot of the practitioners don't use deodorant? Maybe there are a lot of different reasons.

The muslims who remained in Israel are prospering. The muslims who left are suffering (mainly because they refuse to seek peace and settle for part of the land). There are muslims in the Israeli governement for chrissakes. Those who left don't want to live in peace with the Jews, they want to exterminate them. Note the many attacks on Jewish women and children. A true freedom fighter would hit his enemie's government and military assets, not his wife and kids.

I agree with your last sentence, but whatever our opinions it does not change the fact that until the Palestinians are given a free nation-state of their own the conflict will continue into the future. You have to accept that the most important thing is a peacful solution.

In fact, name five conflicts in the world that don't involve Muslims.
That is, in fact, impossible to do.

The muslims who remained in Israel are prospering.
Name one.
The muslims who left are suffering (mainly because they refuse to seek peace and settle for part of the land).
Wrong. The actions of extremist result in the punishment of everyone. Houses are routinely razed to the ground and bulldozed when the properties in question have nothing to do with the perpetrators. Children as young as 5 have been shot and killed intentionally as the result of extremist actions.

There are muslims in the Israeli governement for chrissakes.
Name one.
Those who left don't want to live in peace with the Jews, they want to exterminate them. Note the many attacks on Jewish women and children. A true freedom fighter would hit his enemie's government and military assets, not his wife and kids.
I notice you don't mention the many attacks on Palestinian women and children. I think you watch too much TV.

I agree with your last sentence, but whatever our opinions it does not change the fact that until the Palestinians are given a free nation-state of their own the conflict will continue into the future. You have to accept that the most important thing is a peacful solution.
They're having elections in what, a matter of days right? Let's hope they pick the right leaders.

As for the white pride folks, they aren't responsible for even a quarter of the terrorism that muslim fundies commit.

They don't suffer a hundreth as much as people in the middle east.

I'm not supporting muslim fundamentalists here. I'm just saying that I understand where all that hatred comes from. While you think they just hate america for the sake of it.


As for invading for oil, we won't ever recoup the money spent on the invasion and occupation from selling Iraqi oil.

Should I quote Bush and his puppeteers when they were expecting a very quick war and early stability in Iraq?

Sending special teams to take out saddam and his minions would be much more efficient. But you wouldn't get oil that way, would you?

They're having elections in what, a matter of days right? Let's hope they pick the right leaders.
Yeah, let's get praying on that one. We don't want a significant international political body to elect morons twice in twelve months do we?

An ally who has consistently funded anti-western terrorists. Those kinds of allies we don't need.

All I'm saying is they're diplomatically handcuffed in a way Afghanistan is not. It's not a perfect relationship by a long shot, but we've got bases there, the Saudis are more westernized than their neighbors, and this has developed since Carter. That's moving in the right direction.

Why do I fear and despise the Muslim religion?
..........
Only because for the past 1400 yrs they have been killing off my people.
Only because everyday they wage what they call a Holy War with my people.
Only because they wish to see my nation eradicated from the face of the earth.

That is why I despise them and many others with me.

LOL to the Nth degree. I can't believe what I am reading in this thread. So sad but so funny at the same time.

You guys should spend some time at faithfreedom.org reading Ali Sina and company. Once you do, you will probably never see Islam in a positive light again. I'll give you some direction.

As the title implies, these are testimonials of people who left Islam for varying reasons. But you will notice that people from Pakistan and etc. will also talk about the current conditions there regarding religion.

Testimonials of People who have Left Islam (http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm)

This next link below is a letter to faithfreedom.org from a former British schoolteacher about how a class of hers was made up of Sikh, Hindu, Jew, and Christian kids and everything was fine until a Muslim boy from Pakistan came in and created Riot 101.

My Young Muslim Student (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/JaneRobson50103.htm)

The last faithfreedom.org link I give you is a summary of the current issues in Islam that can make even strong believers question it.

On the Making of an Unbeliever (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AbulKasem50104.htm)

Lastly I'll leave you with Robert Spencer's site.

www.jihadwatch.org

In case you do not know who Robert Spencer is, he is a known author of several books exposing the truth about Islam.

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.

Because lots of people are very ignorant, small-minded and stupid.

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.
people are idiots. easy as that.

Name one.

Wrong. The actions of extremist result in the punishment of everyone. Houses are routinely razed to the ground and bulldozed when the properties in question have nothing to do with the perpetrators. Children as young as 5 have been shot and killed intentionally as the result of extremist actions.


Name one.

I notice you don't mention the many attacks on Palestinian women and children. I think you watch too much TV.
Check www.dailyfreepress.com/news/2001/09/07/opinion/Israel.Is.Not.Wrong-90714.shtml
Fifth paragraph deals with the "plight" of muslim arabs in Israel. They do hold knesset seats.

Israel tears down some houses for security purposes. They are either used to disguise tunnels, as terrorist safehouses, or they belong to terrorist's families. In the last case it works as a financial disincentive to be a terrorist. Remember that people like Saddam paid a pension to the families of dead suicide bombers.

There aren't many attacks on palestinian women or children. Israeli soldiers who go out of their way to kill civilians are prosecuted. If a kid gets hit during a military action it's unavoidable. They should run from the warzone, not stand around and throw rocks at the soldiers and tanks.

I ask you this question Do you really believe Arafat was a peace loving person deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize? If you do you need to open up your eyes to the billions of dollars he has stolen from his people and his past.

and i would like to add that in all my religious discussions, i have been called a heretic, been told i'm going to hell et c. but never by a muslim. only christians have done so.

i have had many rational discussions with muslims regarding their religion. and never once has someone tried to convert me to islam.

Sending special teams to take out saddam and his minions would be much more efficient. But you wouldn't get oil that way, would you?
That could also have been done with relative ease. It's known from intelligence reports that have been admitted on the news several times over the years that the US (or rather, specifially Mossad/Shin Bet and the CIA) knew a lot about Saddam's movements between 1995 and 1997 as he had become less convinced there was an American threat to his person. This was reversed in 1998 when a member of his large and murderous family plotted an assassination attempt. So that was a good two years where the political figurehead could have been removed (sic) with a minimum of fuss. Okay it might have failed, but I don't think anyone would really have minded America trying!

As an aside, I have always thought that if Dubya had just gone on TV and said "We need to finish the job we started. My Daddy should have marched on Baghdad in the first place, and he's sorry he didn't. But we have to go after Saddam as the atrocities he's committed cannot go unpunished further. He has used weapons of mass destruction purchased from Merkan businesses and it is our responsibility to make recompense for that. Whether he has weapons of mass destruction now or not, it is Merka's responsibility to bring this tyrant to justice." then everything would be cool, politically.

I would have believed him. Because it could so easily be true.

When has a Christian ever threatened to kill you, your family, and destroy your entire people?
When in the last 200 yrs has the Christian Church issued a Holy War against all non Christians?
When have Christians funded terrorist orginizations by using CHILDRENS charities?
When have Christians threatened to destroy civilization?

It is not that we hate muslims its that muslims(not all muslims) hate us, and we are just responding to their hatred.
Hatred is not conquered by hatred at any time,
but hatred is won by love;
this is an eternal truth


a little buddha never hurts a discussion.

When has a Christian ever threatened to kill you, your family, and destroy your entire people?
When in the last 200 yrs has the Christian Church issued a Holy War against all non Christians?
When have Christians funded terrorist orginizations by using CHILDRENS charities?
When have Christians threatened to destroy civilization?

"There are some people in this world who do not love their fellow man. I HATE that kind of person!"

LOL to the Nth degree. I can't believe what I am reading in this thread. So sad but so funny at the same time.

You guys should spend some time at faithfreedom.org reading Ali Sina and company. Once you do, you will probably never see Islam in a positive light again. I'll give you some direction.

As the title implies, these are testimonials of people who left Islam for varying reasons. But you will notice that people from Pakistan and etc. will also talk about the current conditions there regarding religion.

Testimonials of People who have Left Islam (http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm)

This next link below is a letter to faithfreedom.org from a former British schoolteacher about how a class of hers was made up of Sikh, Hindu, Jew, and Christian kids and everything was fine until a Muslim boy from Pakistan came in and created Riot 101.

My Young Muslim Student (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/JaneRobson50103.htm)

The last faithfreedom.org link I give you is a summary of the current issues in Islam that can make even strong believers question it.

On the Making of an Unbeliever (http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AbulKasem50104.htm)

Lastly I'll leave you with Robert Spencer's site.

www.jihadwatch.org

In case you do not know who Robert Spencer is, he is a known author of several books exposing the truth about Islam.

So basically, it's a hate site. What a surprise. :rolleyes:

Hatred is not conquered by hatred at any time,
but hatred is won by love;
this is an eternal truth

a little buddha never hurts a discussion.

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind, it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate, and quickly."

A little Lazarus Long doesn't hurt either.

When has a Christian ever threatened to kill you, your family, and destroy your entire people?
When in the last 200 yrs has the Christian Church issued a Holy War against all non Christians?
When have Christians funded terrorist orginizations by using CHILDRENS charities?
When have Christians threatened to destroy civilization?



Wow, you seem to think we are flawless people, us Christians, even though we are the ones who want to erradicate other religions. If you go based on extremists of any religion, you can paint the entire one as dangerous. The KKK, for example, could be taken and used to say Christianity is a racist religion. Is it? No, it's just the real right wing dumbass' that ruin it for everyone.

When has a Christian ever threatened to kill you, your family, and destroy your entire people?
When in the last 200 yrs has the Christian Church issued a Holy War against all non Christians?
When have Christians funded terrorist orginizations by using CHILDRENS charities?
When have Christians threatened to destroy civilization?
1. i've never been threatened by a muslim in this respect.
2. when has every muslim declared a holy war against all non muslims?
3. when has every muslim condoned such actions?
4. the christians have destroyed entire civilizations. see the native american populations for example... have a look at australia. hell, talk to some native north americans who as recently as 40 years ago, were taken away from their families forcibly and placed in christian boarding schools where they were indoctrinated away from their native culture and physically and sexually abused.

All religions suck. It's just that lately Islam has been sucking a little harder. The funny thing is that when you criticize other religions, you only get an argument from thier adherents. When you criticize Islam a bunch of people jump on your case. It seems it's become trendy to be a muslim appologist.

When has a Christian ever threatened to kill you, your family, and destroy your entire people?
All throughout the 1970s and 1980s. Every heard of the IRA? Religious differences as well as political, see?
When in the last 200 yrs has the Christian Church issued a Holy War against all non Christians?
I don't believe it has. But if you can name the specific Islamic leaders who've done so in the last 200 years (seriously, not just typing "Ayatolla Homany") I'll buy you some sweeties.
When have Christians funded terrorist orginizations by using CHILDRENS charities?
What difference does it make what the charity is? Using a charity to fund terrorists acts is wrong and I'm not denying that or again mentioning Noraid and those wankers that supported the IRA from America.
When have Christians threatened to destroy civilization?
Well if you need me to answer that then you need to get your arse back to school and look up "Inquisition" and "Witch Hunt".

I don't hate Muslims, but I think there are a lot of bad things about extremist Islam. But I also think there are a lot of bad things about our own various breeds of American-grown Christian extremism. I distrust extremism in faith, particularly when tied to government, but I'll upgrade distrust to hate when that extremism causes planes to get crashed into buildings. Or when it causes the Oklahoma Federal building to get zapped.

And I am also capable of distinguishing the subtle differences between Muslims. For example, the folks who have their mosque down the block and the guy who runs the local Hallal butchershop are not the same guys who are riding around in Land Cruisers in Afghanistan and plotting the end of the west. And, just thought I'd mention it, I detested the Taliban for blowing up stone Buddhas and mistreating their womenfolk way before the whole "harboring al Qaeda" biz hit the fan.

You couldn't have said it any better. But the "Islamic Facists" what I like to call the Islamic Extremists. Belive that anyone who is apart of a different religon is a "Infedel" and have declaired war on the so called "Infedels" Trust me in the next ten years the Islamic Facists will be wipped out!

I feel it is wrong to hate. I instead disapprove of Fundamental Islamic Terrorists or any other Terrorist group for that matter.

It is human nature to hate that which are different, which is why there are bullies in school, and racists, and other things. We, as human beings, have to get rid of that hate and instead learn understanding and tolerance of things different from us.

If anything hate the behavior and actions, not the people. People can change if they want to. Not all Muslims are terrorists, and many terrorists and terrorist leaders who are Islamic do not fully follow Islam and twist the teachings of Islam to brainwash their followers. True it is a high honor to die a martyr, but one who kills themselves to kill others is not really a martyr, because they are not dying for the true beliefs, just a false view of Islam.

We need to fight this war philosophically and psychologically, and show that the Islamic Terrorists are not really Islamic. Saddam was really a secularist, who used Islam as a tool to control his people and live as a fascist dicator and support terrorists. That Muslim people should follow what their religion teaches them, and not what some Fundamental Islamic Terrorist Leader says. There are many false Muslims out there that make the rest look bad. Like any other people or any other religion there are always good and bad people in that group.

If you want to be treated like everybody else, you gotta behave like everybody else.

Get rid of that sharia of yours,
and while you're at it,
learn to SHAVE.

All religions suck. It's just that lately Islam has been sucking a little harder. The funny thing is that when you criticize other religions, you only get an argument from thier adherents. When you criticize Islam a bunch of people jump on your case. It seems it's become trendy to be a muslim appologist.
i disagree. i've reprehended people for shitty arguments against all sorts of religions if i know enough about them... even christianity. however, it's not very often that there aren't enough people defending christianity and makign grossly innacurate statements about atheists/agnostsics/non-christians that i have to start defending the other groups from the people who were originally being attacked.

Yeah, including the stupidity and short-sightedness of the CIA supporting Bin Laden back in the 80s when he was fighting against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Hopefully they've now learned that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is certainly not true

Ah, the BinLaden Fib.

The above statement is an Urban Legend.

Those who contend that bin Laden received U.S. funds usually make the following argument: America financed the Afghan rebels, bin Laden was among the rebels, therefore, in one way or another, America gave money to bin Laden.

This ignores a key fact: There were two entirely separate rebellions against the Soviets, united only by a common communist enemy. One was financed by Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states and was composed of Islamic extremists who migrated from across the Muslim world. They called themselves “Arab Afghans.” Bin Laden was among them. When the Saudis agreed to match U.S. contributions dollar-for-dollar, the sheikhs insisted that their funds go exclusively to the “Arab Afghans,” possibly including bin Laden. Meanwhile, U.S. funds went exclusively to the other rebellion, which was composed of native Afghans.

Their all racist. Since most terrorist groups origanate in the Midddle East, they assume all those in the Middle East are evil.

We need to fight this war philosophically and psychologically, and show that the Islamic Terrorists are not really Islamic. Saddam was really a secularist, who used Islam as a tool to control his people and live as a fascist dicator and support terrorists. That Muslim people should follow what their religion teaches them, and not what some Fundamental Islamic Terrorist Leader says. There are many false Muslims out there that make the rest look bad. Like any other people or any other religion there are always good and bad people in that group.
if anything, peopel should be going into the poorer muslim nations and teaching the populace to read... and have them read their own holy book so that they know what their leaders are doing goes against the koran. much like medieval europe, not many people know how to read in the muslim world of today... and through the ignorance of the masses, dictators retain their power.

If you want to be treated like everybody else, you gotta behave like everybody else.

learn to SHAVE.
Yeah! Learn to shave!
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/cph/3a50000/3a53000/3a53200/3a53289r.jpg

Be like everyone else! Reject your right to be an individual! :rolleyes:

Almo:

25 percent? Numbers out of nowhere. Richard Clarke, former National Security Advisor, puts the numbers more like this:

1.5 billion people in the Islamic world.
50,000-200,000 estimated in militant Jihadist groups.

That's a tiny fraction of a percent.

Now the Muslims who are killing Christians in Iraq, that's another matter altogether. Religion can almost be stripped out of that equation: You've got people in a nation fighting against occupying troops. I think you'd get a large number of people turning out to fight an occupying force of any faith.
No, I mean 25% of the people actively SUPPORT insurgency and the principles behind it. I don't think 25% of the Muslim world has actually killed an American soldier. Whatever the number is, it's too high.

By the way, the idea that economic development will lead to enlightenment is putting the cart before the horse. Everywhere else in the world, when it's been really successful, it's worked the other way 'round.

In the US, the Enlightenment preceeded the Revolution preceeded the Industrial development.

Funnily enough, despite my antipathy toward religion in general, it deserves a lot of credit for hastening the enlightenment. The belief that "all men are created equal" essentially arose from the Religious Reformation concept that they were all equal (in sin and in worth) in the eyes of God.

"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind, it may offer a way to make him your friend. If not, you can kill him without hate, and quickly."

A little Lazarus Long doesn't hurt either.
"If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find, in each person's life, sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostilities." Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Yeah, including the stupidity and short-sightedness of the CIA supporting Bin Laden back in the 80s when he was fighting against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Hopefully they've now learned that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" is certainly not true
Yeah, people were stupid in the 80's. Supporting the Taliban, Giving nerve agent to Saddam, and trading arms with Iran were probably not good foreign policy measures. And tripling the national debt in the process was an added bonus. We miss you, Ronnie :rolleyes: .

Pakistan-India conflict - Involves Muslims

Chechnya conflict - Muslim Chechen rebels

Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Muslim Palestinians

9/11 plane crash - Muslim Terrorists

Indonesian conflict - Muslim rebels

How no one can understand why Muslims and Christians hate each other is beyond me. But since no one wants to seem to really get to the root of the issue, i guess someone has too.

The Crusades, as some people may think, WERE NOT started to just solely take back Jerusalem. Anyone who thinks so is a moron. During that era, thousands and thousands of Christians made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem to visit the Holy Sepelchure. Now this generated a lot of money for the Muslim owners of Jerusalem, why would they desicrate anything Christian and risk losing that source of income. Any economist wil tell they wouldn't. The Crusades did begin though as a direct response to the decline of the Byzantine Empire, go look it up, you'll see that the emperor of Byzantium asked the Western Christians for help to take back lands that had been taken from them. Well the Byzantine Emperor decided he would back out of his side of the deal and the Crusaders, with nothing left, decided to make a Kingdom in the Middle East.

Now before you say something stupid, the Pope lied to the people of Europe and told them that God had ordained it. I am not saying all Christians are goody-goody's, anything but. But Muslims resent the rich and power of the West and want nothing more to have it.

I don't hate Muslims, i know many, many good Muslims who are happy with their lives here. It's many of the poor, disenfranchised, ignorant one's who want the death of the west. I find the ignorance to fully delve into the subject appaling and the ardent Bush bashing and liberal-left wing tree hugging mentality disgusting to my core. So if you want to call me a right-wing, gun toting, rascist, fine. You'd be dead wrong, i am not a gun-toting redneck, i am a American who want's the best interests of my nation served. America doesn't hate Muslims, Muslims (the exteremists) hate America.

Too many things divide he West from the Muslim world, wealth, develpoment, race, and culture. An the two religions just plain don't like each other in a sense. So stop bitching anf find something better to do with you're time.

Pakistan-India conflict - Involves Muslims

Chechnya conflict - Muslim Chechen rebels

Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Muslim Palestinians

9/11 plane crash - Muslim Terrorists

Indonesian conflict - Muslim rebels

That's easy. You could probably go on for hours. These are the most persecuted guys in history.

How about five conflicts in the world that _don't_ involve the peaceful religion of Islam?

Here's an easy one
1) Protestant v. Catholic over Northern Ireland

:sniper: :sniper: :mp5: I'm an American and my philosophe is that if someone hates me I'm gonna hate them back. I live in the south you see and I'm what some people call a Redneck, and we( rednecks and southerners) are very patriotic and if them there al-Queda and terrorist people wanna come invade America with there robes and scarves and flags, I say come on I got enough guns and ammunition to supply a small WAR, and don't think we won't fight. And we're accurate shooters down here in the south that love to exercise our 2nd Admendment Right and go huntin. And they show and talk about on TV people being scared of terrorism and terrorist groups, well I say Don't Be Scared. That is what motivates them to keep doing attacks. We must stand up to them and stare them in the face and attack. We must strike first, Strike hard, and With NO Mercy. I don't care we're your from, if your from Russia, Britain, Germany, where ever. We must stand strong. I ecouraged everyone to join the military in there real-world country, and if your in the middle-east reading this don't go out and kill some people for no reason or strap a bomb to yourself if you don't fire on me I won't fire on you. WE MUST STAND STRONG TO BRING PEACE!! :headbang: :mp5: :sniper: :)

Yeah, people were stupid in the 80's. Supporting the Taliban, .

Another lie. The Taliban did not exist in Afghanistan until quite some time after the US ceased involvement in Afghanistan.

Yee Haw! Another one of us joins the group. As another 'ignorant southern hick' I'd like to welcome you aboard. I'd put a smiley there, but I don't like them. That's the way the rest of the 'civilized' sees us.

Another lie. The Taliban did not exist in Afghanistan until quite some time after the US ceased involvement in Afghanistan. True! But they did buy the weapons that they are fighting America and its Allies, with the money that we gave them in the 80's.

invade America with there robes and scarves and flags
Yeah you southern cousin-shagging, sister-marryin', six-fingered hicks got enough of your own flowing robes and funny looking flags without anyone else intruding on your trailer parks, right?

YEEHAW!

Yeah you southern cousin-shagging, sister-marryin', six-fingered hicks got enough of your own flowing robes and funny looking flags without anyone else intruding on your trailer parks, right?

YEEHAW!
How dare you confuse us with the Welsh!

Yeehaw!

Hey ghost, I hear they're grooving on some CCR and handing out free PBR over in the Confederate Flag thread. You maybe oughta give it a lookie-see.

True! But they did buy the weapons that they are fighting America and its Allies, with the money that we gave them in the 80's.

Nope, not even that. The Taliban was primarily trained and supplied by the Pakistanis.

Most of the Taliban's leaders were educated in Pakistan, in refugee camps where they had fled with millions of other Afghans after the Soviet invasion. Pakistan's Jami'at-e 'Ulema-e Islam (JUI) political party provided welfare services, education, and military training for refugees in many of these camps.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/taliban.html

It's crazy for people to hate all that are members of one or two religions because of the actions of few.
ButI think it's about the jihad.
They want to kill all Americans and many other people.

All foriegner who think everyone who supports President Bush or has a differing view from your liberal, socialist European life style, you're a stupid moron who needs to get a clue and stop spewing ignorace. Many intelligent people support Bush, you'd never know Curt Schilling, or Mel Gibson or Rudy Guiliani voted for President Bush, i guess they are all stupid right? Don't spew your left wing garbage, it makes you look ignorant. I guess you all like to listen to Barbera Striesand and Bruce Springsteen when they say Bush is stupid. Go to hell, maybe you should come here and actually meet some of the people before you form an opinion. I went to Europe and got my own. :sniper: Who's the ignorant one now? YOU!!! :sniper: :gundge:

It's crazy for people to hate all that are members of one or two religions because of the actions of few.
ButI think it's about the jihad.
They want to kill all Americans and many other people.

Jihad means "to struggle". It is used as in "to struggle against the oppression".


Many intelligent people support Bush, you'd never know Curt Schilling, or Mel Gibson or Rudy Guiliani voted for President Bush, i guess they are all stupid right?

I don't know Schilling or Giuliani enough but Mel Gibson is a demented fundamentalist christian that believes that every word in the bible is true.

And just to piss you off: Evolution HAS been proven.

Nope, not even that. The Taliban was primarily trained and supplied by the Pakistanis.



The CIA chanelled funds for the Afghan resistance through the Pakistani intelligence services.

All foriegner who think everyone who supports President Bush or has a differing view from your liberal, socialist European life style, you're a stupid moron who needs to get a clue and stop spewing ignorace. Many intelligent people support Bush, you'd never know Curt Schilling, or Mel Gibson or Rudy Guiliani voted for President Bush, i guess they are all stupid right? Don't spew your left wing garbage, it makes you look ignorant. I guess you all like to listen to Barbera Striesand and Bruce Springsteen when they say Bush is stupid. Go to hell, maybe you should come here and actually meet some of the people before you form an opinion. I went to Europe and got my own. :sniper: Who's the ignorant one now? YOU!!! :sniper: :gundge:

Mel Gibson isn't stupid??

Doesn't he think his own wife is going to go to hell because she's not a practising Catholic?

All foriegner who think everyone who supports President Bush or has a differing view from your liberal, socialist European life style, you're a stupid moron who needs to get a clue and stop spewing ignorace.
Funniest comment I've read on this forum so far. And so so so naíve I can only assume that you're not yet old enough to vote or indeed shave. I know quite a few people who voted for Dubya. I believe his had some economic policies that were particularly favourable to the pensionable and elderly - always a good plan with the continued growth in the average age of over 50s.
maybe you should come here and actually meet some of the people before you form an opinion.
I did. Maybe you should really come over to Europe and stop assuming that everyone in Europe (which a massive continent of different nations, political systems and cultures) is exactly the narrow stereotype of what you just wrote.

The CIA chanelled funds for the Afghan resistance through the Pakistani intelligence services.

People don't have an idea of how many demented schemes the US government made in order to gain strategical advantages...


And neither do you and I...

First off most of you need to understand that we do not live in a perfect world. All the ideas im hearing (some I like, some I dont) sound good in theory but I dont think some of you are thinking too clearly on the subject.

Now let me get knee deep in the shit here. To start things off IMO I think that unless you live in the US, UK, IRAQ, or any place that is directly involved (and when I say involved I mean your country is giving support of some kind to the war effort or if people in your country have ties back to the middle east and cause problems for your country out of anger) in this problem, then shut the fuck up. OMG I am so sick of other countries going over every thing america does. If you people would spend half of that energy on your own problems in your own country then things might be better for you. I mean seriously the UN spends more time bitching and worring about the US than do other countries IRAQ in example, of course IMO. Also im tired of hearing Iraq didnt have weapons of mass distruction. That statement is only half right. We found missles capable of traveling farther than 2000 miles (or 200 cant remember) but they had no kind of primary load (when I say that I mean like a biological agent, a nuclear charge, regular good old tnt, whatever....). Now my question is, what are they doing with those empty missles? Not to be missunderstood those missles were launch capable but like I said before had no primary load in fact what I just stated was talked about on American TV. Now do I believe that oil has nothing to do with it? No, but its an easy answer the media gave for the problem. I mean thats makes as munch sense as saying the the war between the north and the south was about slavery (slavery was only one of smaller issues that led to that war).

Now most of you say people will hate what they do not understand. I understand their religion and I still dont like it. Why? Simple its a religion based upon conquest. Now please dont throw up the "Christanity did this and Christanity did that argument" because even if Christanity is responsible for all those things most of you talk about there is still one thing you either fail to recognize or refuse to. That is the fact that all bad stuff we christans did was in the past. We learned from it and moved on. Today we have so many diffenernt forms of Christanity but none of it is exactly like it was in the past. Now I dont speak for everyone or represent everyone and I do understand that their are so called christans who do things that are bad and wrong but you cant point those out as a representation for christanity as a whole either or your just going against your own statments. I cant say the same for the Muslim religion though. It seems many of thier old ways are still in practice today. Also I understand that not all Muslims are like this but any who follow that religion in the traditional way most likely are. Also it is stated in the muslim religion (I cant quote it but I will give you basics of what it means) that if you come upon a enemy you can not defeat then co-exsist with that enemy untill you are strong enough to defeat him. Sounds a little like whats going on these days does it not?

Now im a pretty intellegent guy. Im open minded. Im not the smartest out there, nor do I clame to be the best at anything. But I do understand things as they come because I take the time research something. Also I can tell the difference between a biased site and one that is not. The main thing that really bothers me about this tread and many like it is one simple fact. Most of you get off topic in a bad way. When I say that I mean this fourm becomes less about people giving thier oppinions in an intellegent manor and turns into a "who is right and who is wrong contest". Most of you are so quick to jump on a website and try to find some facts that wont aid your oppinion but make you right over another person.

Last thing I have to say is when responding to this post please do not point out spelling errors or try to find ways to make it seem like im controdicting myself. Also dont flame because that really proves nothing it just wastes time. One more thing before I go. Where do you people draw the line between "understanding" something and "agreeing" with something. Most of you preach for understanding and letting people have their oppinions. Yet when you come across one you dont agree with you try to destroy it. I understand that some people have oppinions that may be close minded but that is still their oppinion and they have a right to it.

I am an American, and this is my oppinion, there are many like it, but this one is mine.

Alot of 'we' and 'them' in this thread... with 'we' meaning Americans(?) and 'them' meaning Muslims in general. I think it is very stupid to speak to the Islam as a whole, because it is not one thing.

Also, stop seeing eachother as so different. Different cultures look so alike if you watch closely.

btw, I have some muslim friends, and they are much more openminded then alot of other people I know. Stop stereotyping EVERYTHING.

What a loaded question. What an obvious troll to ask this, and then to respond, "look at all the <enter whatever race/religion here> and all the bad things they do..."

When is the last time you heard about the KKK taking over a school and murdering *children*... intentionally, of any color? The KKK is certainly not above murdering children. Don't get me wrong. They are a dispicable organization.

Historically, Christianity *has* been at the root of much human suffering, injustice, ignorance and hatred. Christianity, like any religion, should be watched carefully, even today. The Bush administration brings troubling religious overtones to America with it.

But to paraphrase billions of *moderate* Muslims the day after 9/11... "The Middle East, Muslims and Islam brought THAT on themselves..."

Has America spent the last 40 years *itching* for a Holy War with the Middle East? Have we thrown around theocratic dogma and rhetoric regarding the Great Satan that resides in the Arabic/Muslim nations? No... that shoe belongs to someone else... We may have a guy in office right now who is perfectly willing to throw that kind of rhetoric back at "The Evil Doers"... but hey, you reap what you sow...

As far as 9/11 breeding intolerance for Muslims... NO. Sorry. 9/11 is just the tip of the iceburg that goes all the way back to Egypt getting it's ASS KICKED by Israel in the 7 days war. Listen, the Islamic Middle East started that act of aggression, lost, and has been bitching about the injustice ever since. So Israel won, took some land and said, "tough" when the Middle East asked for it back. Ever since then, the rhetoric and action from the Middle East has been incessant. Muslim extremists use every opportunity to attack Israel and the West, and always ultimately blame it on this. They've got a billion other excuses, too, but it always comes back to this issue at some point. Get over it. You lost. Hell... LEARN from your mistake and start playing NICE with your neighbors. And this issue isn't limited to extremist fringe groups. It is official national policy of acknowledged legitimate Arabic governments throughout the Middle East. It is the official stand of a majority of moderate Muslims (you've got to move EVERY title one notch to the RIGHT when dealing with Muslims... keep that in mind. A LIBERAL Muslim is like a moderate Westerner). How disingenious to act like the anti-Islamic backlash is SOLELY the result of Al Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden, and 9/11. Ghaddafi, Saddam Hussien, Syria, Pakistan, Iran... Lockerbrie/Pan-Am, The 196x Olympic Games, the "Line of Death" *snicker* in the Gulf of Arabia.... Countless bombings, attacks on embassy buildings... man, we could just go on, and on, and on...

Listen... If there is misery and suffering and strife in a nation, Islam is usually not far away. They can't get along with the Russian Republics, they can't get along with the Chinese Communists, they can't get along with Western Democracies... They cause untold misery in Africa, developed or not. Hell, Muslims can't get along with *each-other*. When is the last time Lutherans and Baptists declared a holy war on each other, or a vandetta on each other?

Islam is an inheirently FLAWED religion practiced by inheirently flawed people.

And who made the rest of the world *really* examine this religion under a fine toothed comb to come to this conclusion?

Well, it should be repeated until it sinks in...

They brought it upon themselves.

The sense of brotherhood that is part of the Islamic belief. This allows leaders in Islamic countries to butcher, torture and starve their populations and at the same time appear as brothers to the populations. The leaders are respected by the religion.

Ummah provides for there being people outside of the Ummah. It is easy for Muslim leaders to blame the outsiders for the crap conditions in Muslim countries. The leader may be building the worlds largest super yacht whilst citizens go hungry on the street, but the leader and the citizen are all part of the Ummah and as such responsible for each other. So the leader says "it is those horrible Israelis/Chinese/Americans who are attacking us/stealing our jobs/repressing the Ummah" to the citizen, and the citizen says "yes they are". Then the citizens go off and attack the blamed party and leader gets to keep his 15 palaces, super yachts and holidays in Las Vegas.

In any other non-Muslim society a leader who ripped off the citizens as badly as the Muslim dictators do would have a coup every 5 seconds. But not in the Islamic world.

Islam seems to be spawning a lot of terrorists, misogynists, homophobes, and other hatefull people. Granted not all muslims are scum, but the religion seems to breed more than it's fair share.

Christianity has done the same thing, sadly. Most world religions with a very large following breed more than their fair share of idiots.

Its becuz theyre a barbacic pagan ppl trying to hide witin the ranks of the true god, Jehovah. And worst of all they dont groom.

You like cracking jokes, don't you? You're starting to sound like DF.

Christianity has done the same thing, sadly. Most world religions with a very large following breed more than their fair share of idiots.


Did I miss something? Is it OK for Muslims to currently act in the most attrocious of manners because Christians have historically acted this same way?

The question originally posed wasn't "Why hate Christians". I mean, I'd certainly encourage people who want to discuss that to open a new thread. I'd be happy to contribute some reasons...

But saying that "Christians *have* done some very similar things", or even "Christians *are* doing some very similar things", still doesn't justify or excuse the behavior of Islam. At all.

Do not try to judge if what they do is justifiable or not. Try to see why they are doing it.

Personally, I'm not going to bother reading through the rest of the posts because I already know how this conversation has gone. I fear that if I read through this whole thread, I will want to throw on a mask and cut some heads off on webcam.

All I am going to say is look at the quote in my signature. It is from Qur'an. It is one of the many passages on how Muslims are supposed to act towards non-Muslims.

A few - very few - have broken such commandments and will be punished. They will be punished far worse than what anyone can do to them here in this life. I'm sure there's been talk of Arabs and their supposedly apparent hatred of all things Western, but I would like anyone - anyone - to look up the percentage of Muslims who are Arabs. I'd love to see the numbers, side by side, of how many Arab Muslims there are compared to how many Arab Christians. Just remember, kids, just because it looks like a duck and walks like a duck doesn't mean it is a duck. A brown guy with a "towel" on his head could be a Christian.

I'm just gonna shake my head now and go have some dinner.

Do not try to judge if what they do is justifiable or not. Try to see why they are doing it.

Wow. Now there is some Wackowski/Matrix philosophy at its finest.

You know what, this is just more apologist justification. There are a billion different reasons proposed for why Islam and the Middle East breeds extremists and terrorists. I personally agree with the poster above who said it has to do with their culture and the horrible abuses of the leadership throughout much of the Middle East.

Understanding and rehabilitation are *not* the resolution for the crisis in the Middle East. Culturally, they do not respond to this, in general, other than to exploit and take advantage of perceived weakness and lack of resolve on the part of their "enemies". Witness the attacks on America during the Clinton administration, who was widely seen as a very popular foreign statesman who consistently put global diplomacy in front of domestic agenda.

The unfortunate truth is that only a tit-for-tat policy of extreme aggression works with most Middle Eastern governments, cultures, etc. IF *that* will even work.

When did Gaddaffi start turning around? Well, when did he shut up? After Reagan blew the crap out of his palace and killed his baby adopted daughter. After a decade of silence, he started speaking out again, but in a lot more civil tone with an eye on courting politically correct, liberally left leaning progressive compassionates.

I'd say that 75% of all wars are based upon religious belives, the rest are because of capitalistic reasons.
The world had always a scapegoat, in the medievals (How to spell it anyway?) it were jews, because they were the one's who could act economic and such (Dont take that anti-semitic.) Then it were gypzes, in the 20th century well first germans then russians, and from about 1995 it were "those fucking terrorists in arab country" (Which would include all middleeast+ some african countries)
You can hear everywhere that muslims/arabs/turks/"towelheads" are evil they rape destroy terrorize and whatsoever evil things, but seriously it's because of some men's actions, Which would be the same saying that if the leader of a country is stupid, rest of the country is (Example U.S.A) but that is also wrong as alot of americans are smart.
Why cant we all just rejoice into a giant religion of love and peace?
Would be best but unfortuanly that would be like making everyone happy, impossible :P
Besides christianity is the worst religion who have murdered raped pillaged destroyed most throughout the whole civilization of men, but that dont make all christians into crazed bible readers does it?

Oh yeah forgot, the reason why islam are breeding so many fucking terrorists (in both middleeast and palestina conflict) is because the whole world have made that place into such a hell, so they decide to give back with backhand tactics which are counted as terrorism because they hit the western "civilized" world with suicide bombers and such, actually, who of you would care if usa would drop a bomb on a whole city erradicating it, and who of you would care if usama bin ladin bombed 2 schools, 5 hospitals and some apartments? I would guess the most would say the second choice.

I think that a lot of people in this world need to start realising that Islam and Fundametalist Islamic groups are very different. The (I'm sorry I'm probably going to spell it wrong) Qaran teaches to embrace other people and religions, and the Islamic people have made some amazing discoveries and advancements. Much of what became standard medical practice came back from the Muslim world with the returning Crusaders. Muslim inventions (http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/muslim_inventors.html). Fundamentalist Muslims have taken aspects of the Qaran and altered them to fit their purposes. True Islam is a very interesting religion and it is very tolerant I believe as well.

I think that a lot of people in this world need to start realising that Islam and Fundametalist Islamic groups are very different. The (I'm sorry I'm probably going to spell it wrong) Qaran teaches to embrace other people and religions, and the Islamic people have made some amazing discoveries and advancements. Much of what became standard medical practice came back from the Muslim world with the returning Crusaders. Muslim inventions (http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa/history/muslim_inventors.html). Fundamentalist Muslims have taken aspects of the Qaran and altered them to fit their purposes. True Islam is a very interesting religion and it is very tolerant I believe as well.

I believe the Islam that you are talking about is Sufi Islam, which is the mystic Islam, and what is left of the moderate Sunni and Shia sects. A good example of a Sufi country is Uzbekistan, which also just held democratic elections. I believe that is the greatest hope for us, if only Sufi Islam came into the mainstream world. (The other great hope is that Afghanistan and Iraq will become successful democracies and there is great reform in Iran.)

Sadly however, the Islam that has been gaining ground in the world is Wahabbi Islam. It is the most extreme Islam and is the one most responsible for all of the problems. For example, it holds the brutal Sharia (Islamic law where raped women are executed just for being raped and etc.) as the highest authority, even over country's judicial systems. It is also bad that Wahabbism is the official religion of Saudi Arabia. It has mostly surged in SE Asia especially Pakistan and Indonesia and Africa especially in Algeria, Nigeria, Egypt, and the Sudan.

There was a fear that this could spread to Eastern Europe as formally Sufi dominated areas in Russia such as the area of Chechya and Daghestan became more extreme. However, it looks as Albania and etc are cracking down well by freezing assets and etc. It's funny how these poor countries can do a good job and yet the rich Saudis say they're helpless...

Understanding and rehabilitation are *not* the resolution for the crisis in the Middle East. .

When did Gaddaffi start turning around? Well, when did he shut up? After Reagan blew the crap out of his palace and killed his baby adopted daughter.

So much preconception, hatred and violence. Goddamit. And you wonder why arabs hate the US...

So much preconception, hatred and violence. Goddamit. And you wonder why arabs hate the US...


Where are my preconceptions? Where is my violence and hatred?

I'm a live and let die kinda guy. If I can travel the world unmolested, if I can go to my office building without worrying about a fundamentalist flying an airliner into it, I've got ZERO beef with how Muslims want to live life in their own countries. Cut thieves hands off for stealing, set your wife afire, stone whores, patrol your cities with rape squads... whatever floats your boat...

My violence and hatred is purely motivated by SELF-DEFENSE. I never declared war on Islam or it's way of life. It declared war on me and mine. And, I'd be perfectly willing to call it a truce, a stale-mate, and just go back to business as usual, if I thought Islam and Muslims would do the same. The way I see it, they've made it an all-or-nothing, zero-sum, us-or-them game. If more of the so called "moderate" Muslims were actually coming forward and vocally decrying the actions of the terrorist/extremist segments, speaking with *anything* like *reasonable*, sensible and self-accountable voices, I'd think that diplomacy might work. Two things seem to speak to these people. Violence, and money. And I'm certainly not willing to BUY my peace. Looks like we're going to have to FIGHT for it. Everyone has heard the one about the Cowboy, Indian, and Muslim fanatic stuck in an airport in Montana...

"we haven't started playing Cowboys and Muslims, yet..."

I feel *exactly* the same way about Christian fundamentalism in politics within the United States. Keep out of my way, and I don't care what you do on your own time. Handle snakes, talk in tongues, decry homosexuality as abhorent in the eyes of God and call abortion Doctors murderers.

But when you start trying to affect MY life based on what the invisible man in YOUR head is telling you, well, you're the enemy. If extremist Christians in this country start acting as irresponsible as Muslims, and if MODERATE Christians in this country quietly accept the actions of those in the margins, I'd see *zero* difference between my view on Islam and my view on Christianity at that point.

I never declared war on Islam or it's way of life. It declared war on me and mine.

It has not. 19 people who happen to be Muslim flew planes into the WTC and Pentagon. 19 people and you say that because of the actions of those 19 people, 1.3 to 1.5 BILLION people have thus declared war on you? I'm an American, I live in America, I have Christian neighbors, I have Jewish neighbors ... have I, a Muslim, a follower of Islam, ever once rammed a plane into their houses? Have I ever sent my chidlren to blow them up? Have I ever even once given them a dirty look if I see them outside? No ... and nearly a billion and a half Muslims just like me have never done the same.

You're just an ass.

If more of the so called "moderate" Muslims were actually coming forward and vocally decrying the actions of the terrorist/extremist


We do ... you just see a beard and turban and close your mind, eyes, and ears.

Again ... you're just an ass.

We do ... you just see a beard and turban and close your mind, eyes, and ears.

Again ... you're just an ass.

I've clearly documented a history and pattern of extremist Muslim aggression toward the west, not just the action of 19 individuals, that has been quietly condoned by a HUGE segment and the most vocal segment of Islamic society on a global scale.

I'm not living in an ivory tower, either. The Muslims *I* know first hand who came forward, in America, as American citizens, claiming that the US has brought this upon itself with it's policies in Israel did not wear turbans and do not have beards. The Siek I worked with DID fit this generic stereotype, and I know for a fact that he and his following had nothing to do with ANY of these attacks on my way of life. So much for the Turban and Beard theory...

If you're truly a "liberal Muslim" who feels guilt and shame and remorse for the actions attributed to your religion, then instead of responding to MY anger and frustration with your own quick-to-fire and hot hostility (which only confirms "OUR" suspicions), you might try eating a little crow and trying to respond in a more pacifist manner.

I'm an ass? I've a right to be. What is YOUR excuse?!?

If you're truly a "liberal Muslim" who feels guilt and shame and remorse for the actions attributed to your religion, then instead of responding to MY anger and frustration with your own quick-to-fire and hot hostility (which only confirms "OUR" suspicions), you might try eating a little crow and trying to respond in a more pacifist manner.


The day I see White Christians apologize for Tim McVeigh or the KKK, then I might consider apologize for something I didn't do nor had any part in. However, it's completely assinine to ask someone to cow themselves for something they didn't do.

I'm an ass? I've a right to be. What is YOUR excuse?!?

So an attack on America is not an attack on me because I'm Muslim?

When you pull your head out of your ass, does the popping sound bother you?

Why do people hate Muslims and the Islamic religion?

I don't. agree with you completely. And no I am not Muslim, not anything close. Yes I have read most of the Koran (plan to finish when i have time) and am more informed than most people are on their beliefs. There is nothing there to hate. Yes they have (more than) their fair share of extremists, but so do all religions.

I think that people hate Muslims so much because of how much focus the media places on arabic extremists. These terrorists are using their religion as an excuse to kill many innocent people when really religion is just a cover story. The Koran, much like the Bible, teaches peace and that murder is a sin. It also says that if the faithful commit sins but have absolute faith in Allah then their sins will most likely be forgiven. Much like the Bible.
What these people are really doing is commiting acts of terrorism for revenge and money. This is the leaders, the superiors. The subordinates really do believe that they are doing Allah's work on the orders of their superiors and that they will be going to paradise where the infidel pigs will serve them. This is why they are willing to commit suicide in order to kill hundreds of people. The superiors on the other hand would never put their own life in danger because they aren't completely faithful.
Muslims are hated most in australia because of the media. The are always showing and Arab fireing an AK-47 into the air or a bus blown to bits by a suicide bomber. They never report news on the 'Red Army Faction' or 'Action Directe' or any other of a hundred Europian terrorist organizations. Not to mention the 'Sierra Club'.

The day I see White Christians apologize for Tim McVeigh or the KKK, then I might consider apologize for something I didn't do nor had any part in. However, it's completely assinine to ask someone to cow themselves for something they didn't do.



So an attack on America is not an attack on me because I'm Muslim?

When you pull your head out of your ass, does the popping sound bother you?


I've said this before... if you *want* to start a thread discussing the evils and problems with Christianity, start a thread and I'll be happy to join you and start bashing away. Stop using the actions of another regressive spiritual movement to try and somehow justify the actions of your own. More cop-outs. More pointing fingers and laying blame and seeking justification. EXACTLY what I've come to expect from Muslims, generally speaking.

But, being that you pointed us down this path...

Show me ANY example of POPULAR support among mainstream moderate and liberal Christians for the actions of Timothy McVeigh. Show me an example of moderate pastors and priests coming forward to say, "The Federal Government of the United States of America DID bring the Oklahoma bombing on itself with it's repressive policies". Show me an example of global communities of Christians taking this same stand. With any example you might propose. The KKK, abortion related murders... gay murders, whatever...

Show me an example. Cite your source...

How long do you think it will take me to compile a list like this of MUSLIM/ISLAMIC leaders worldwide who have a long-standing record of providing popular support and justification for suicide bombings, for infitahda and jihad, for attacks against western interests. For double tongued speeches that claim, "Although this action was against EVERYTHING Islam stands for and represents and we decry this action in the strongest language possible, it still must be mentioned that the policies and actions of the victim were responsible for this action".

"I'm sorry I shot you, but you made me do it..." is not a REAL apology.

As far as "the popping sound when you pull your head out of your ass", you should try it sometime for yourself and let me know what you think...

Heh... -ouch- that musta burnt...

It is not that we hate muslims its that muslims(not all muslims) hate us, and we are just responding to their hatred.


As Ghandi said "an eye for an eye will leave us all blind"

As Ghandi said "an eye for an eye will leave us all blind"


Didn't he get assasinated??? By Sieks?


(I'm gonna keep misspelling that until I get it right...)


I saw the films of the 60s movements. Pacifism gets you a whupped ass... Kent State kinda put a damper on that whole movement, didn't it?!?

I don't want to be around for the Islamic extremist version of Kent State, at least not as a "passive protestor".

"I'm sorry I shot you, but you made me do it..." is not a REAL apology.


Guess what, son, I am a US Army Ranger. Bravo Company, Operation Desert Shield/Storm and a decorated combat veteran for my country. I'm not apologizing for shit nor am I going to cow myself because some whiney ass on the internet screams about how "muslims are teh sux0rs!"

Your attitude is out of alignment, your mindset is weak and petty, and I suggest that if you don't like the state of the world, that you pick up a rifle and head out with the next shipment of US Soldiers who are spending a lot of time and energy, blood and sweat, to make sure the world is a better place for you AND Muslims - though they wouldn't take you ... guys like you end up victims of "friendly fire".

Otherwise, get off the playing field. You're out of your league. Try the kiddie pool ... it's warm.

Guess what, son, I am a US Army Ranger. Bravo Company, Operation Desert Shield/Storm and a decorated combat veteran for my country.

Not that I would ever take for granted ANY American citizen's contribution to our nation's armed forces...

But it takes a special kind of person to make it in the military, and an even MORE special kind of person to excel in that capacity...

Thankfully, "son", I'm *not* that kind of person, and I wouldn't want it any other way.

But it explains an awful lot about you...

It was actually *spooky* the way you just clicked into "mindless automan Texas nail-chewer" mode... I could even hear your drawl as I read that...

I'm sure it is a useful skill... but I'll be certain to stay away from any bell-towers you might frequent, all the same....

And hey, I'm all for hair-trigger Muslim soliders on OUR team... Horray for you...

I'm sure it is a useful skill... but I'll be certain to stay away from any bell-towers you might frequent, all the same....

Only Marines shoot from bell-towers. Rangers don't need to hide.

Oh, and Christianity doesn't? The KKK, Fred Phelp's group, and a whole other assortment of groups come to mind...
The KKK is not a Christian group. They say that they are, but they aren't. No real Christian burns the holy cross and advocates the crap that the KKK does.
The fact is, most Muslims are peaceful people, but about 95% of radical terrorists are Arabs and 98% of those are Muslims. Thus, profiling is acceptable, hate is not. Without profiling, though, we'd have nothing. I've never seen a 90 year old Anglo woman carrying a rocket launcher. Arab-Americans should understand this and submit themselves to that profiling so that the truly guilty can be caught.

Why don't people like Moslems? Hmmmm...lets think....the Munich Olympics.... The Iran Hostage Crisis.... Lebannon bombing... countless suicide bombings in Israel....first Trade tower bombing.... USS Cole attack.... Talibans brutality....9-11..... Bali bombing... Spanish train bombing....I wonder?

And as far as them complaining about the crusades: That was 1000 years ago! Move on guys! Stop living in caves and riding camels and start developing your countries. God dang, fricken idiots...

Stop living in caves and riding camels and start developing your countries. God dang, fricken idiots...

I live in a 4 bedroom house and drive a mini-van. What the fuck are you going on about?

Here's some images of a city ...

http://www.dejkam.com/iran/tehran/photos/9.jpg

Nice! Lovely office building.

http://www.dejkam.com/iran/tehran/photos/2.jpg

Not a bad view there!

http://www.dejkam.com/iran/tehran/photos/8.jpg

Fancy open stop photgraph there. Groovy city there in the background.

http://www.dejkam.com/iran/tehran/photos/10.jpg

Stunning bit of archetecture there.

http://www.dejkam.com/iran/tehran/photos/13.jpg

Beautiful park!

I wonder what this place can be ... freeways ... skyscrapers ... artistic buildings ... clean air ... why it must surely be a God-fearing American city ...

Oh ... no it isn't .... IT'S TEHRAN! Capitol of the Axis of Evil itself ... IRAN!

Wow ... not one single camel or cave.

Go fuck yourself and the pre-conceived notion you rode in on.

Only Marines shoot from bell-towers. Rangers don't need to hide.

Hey... just a word of advice, too...

That was a lot of pretty revealing personal information you revealed there, for someone who is smart enough to post "Oh no you don't..." on location.

Imagine I'm someone pretty highly connected with significant portions of the industrial-military complex in America (and I just might be, imagine, two degree of Donald Rumsfield for example...) How hard is it going to be to isolate who YOU are based on the information you provided in your angry response to me? Just because I'm blowing time fighting like an idiot on the Internet, doesn't mean this isn't a possibility...

I'm sure *no* Muslim in the American military wants to find his/herself talking to their commanding officer about getting into angry pro-Muslim debates on international BBS forums, right now.

I'm going to take you for your word that you are who and what you say you are, and I'm going to give you a certain amount of respect based on that, and it doesn't matter if you want that or not or how you respond about me or my character. I'm partially playing devil's advocate here, and I also partially believe a lot of what I have said to some certain degree. I think your reaction helps illustrate some of my points, and also shows the danger of why Bush-ism is SO damn appealing to so many Americans right now. Personally I *didn't* vote for the guy, this time around, for whatever that is worth. I'd suggest you take some time, go back, and evaluate this thread and your response to it and the issues we are tackling here and ask what Islam needs to do to correct the problem. Muslim responses like yours only breeds Bush like responses from the rest of America, and things are just going to get nastier and nastier if that goes on...

I don't hate Islam or Muslims.

I strongly dislike anyone who, with malice aforethought and direct intent (which, imo, separates the good from the bad.. like the difference between killing someone in a car accident by complete accident and murdering them in cold blood), attacks innocent people or attempts to kill them.

That type of person, regardless of race/creed/ideology etc., must be stopped.

Therefore, I am strongly against terrorism/terrorists and the insurgency in Iraq. If those people don't want the majority to rule, tough beans. Don't kill a man because he wants to vote. And don't kill the person who is there to help your country rebuild after kicking out one of the worst figures of the 20th century.
Suppose a thick head like the whole lot of you generalizing twats think thats in the Koran or something christ. This whole board is just generalizatoin central, you could put anything there, gays, straights, christians and all the same shit would come out. I'd rather be with an animal for conversation than this.

That was a lot of pretty revealing personal information you revealed there, for someone who is smart enough to post "Oh no you don't..." on location.

That's a Monty Python referrence. Laugh it up.

I'm sure *no* Muslim in the American military wants to find his/herself talking to their commanding officer about getting into angry pro-Muslim debates on international BBS forums, right now.

2% (maybe more) of the US Military is Muslim. I'm sure Rummy knows. Anyway, my time is up. I'm just a civie now. But, once a Ranger, always a Ranger.

I think your reaction helps illustrate some of my points, and also shows the danger of why Bush-ism is SO damn appealing to so many Americans right now.

I reacted to hostility with hostility. Check back. You can't sit there and say to a Muslim that "all Muslims must be held accountable for what even one of them does" and not expect anger. It's like saying "all black people steal and deal crack" to a black man. I may be a liberal, but I'm not Ghandi. When you say that all Muslims must be held accountable for, say, 9/11, then you are saying my son - who wasn't even born yet (he's 2) - must be held accountable. I react with hostility when blatant hostility is shown towards my children.

That's a human thing, not a Muslim thing. You'd do the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

Muslim responses like yours only breeds Bush like responses from the rest of America, and things are just going to get nastier and nastier if that goes on...

So what would you suggest? We cow? If someone screams that all Muslims are evil and should be wiped out, we should just say, "Yes, you are right. We suck ass. We're the worst thing to ever crawl out of this planet."

Yeah ... right. Good luck with that initiative. I cow for no man. President Bush said to the American people that we should not live in fear. I won't ... not even of him or his lackeys.

The Muslim's laws in the Middle East is that you convert the person to Muslim or you have to kill them.
With that kind of law they made themselves the ememy.

Sign,
Marines 911 :sniper:

thats the christian idea...
islam preaches that all conquered countrys that follow the book (bible tora, wotever) and one god can follow their own belief... at some extra taxes but still.
Christians just whacked the shit out of other faiths or ppl without faith or even ppl that looked different.

the muslims that dislike us do so cuz some retarted ayatolla is unhappy that he is poor and the west is right. Like the germans hated the jews cuz they were richer then they where.

sometimes i am simply mysitifed that people think bringing up medieval actions and comparing them with present day Islamic terrorism is a valid argument. Some are so worried about appearing PC that they can;t speak the truth if it kills them. by the way, look where the developed first world countries are and where they aren;t. look where christianity spread, and where it didn't. damned coincidence, huh?

Inquisition was hundreds of years ago, and was a response to another people conquering its' lands. Crusades were to "free the Holy Land" which was...conquered by Muslims. Then look at Islam. spawning groups that kill film makers (the quiet of the left and creative crowd to the murder is stunning), blow up planes (every single airline terrorist act has been by a arab/muslim male), and the vast majority of terrorist acts in the past century have been by the Jihadis. The Wahhabists openly pronounce their goal of forcibly converting the world to Islam in Saudi Arabia. you can draw a circle around the center of the world on a flat map of the earth where the planet's biggest conflicts are happening, mostly centered in Islamic countries. where has the latest genocides taken place? Sudan is an ethnic conflict, if you are a head in the sand PC mouthpiece. Islam is in major need of an enlightenment./reformation, or the whole world is in trouble, that;s simple fact. no, not ALL muslims, but i would think and hope the people most offended by these sorts of people are the "good majority" of Muslims, but I have yet to hear them stop their rant at Israel to comment much, the response after Sept 11 was terribly insufficient in my mind from these "moderates". To sit here and say Islam is good, seriously, look at the contributions to mankind they made in, uh, 1200....mumblemumble.....the fact is Islam is stuck in the middle ages and until it undergoes some sort of reformation, is simply a threat to the free world. ever read some of the lines on how to treat women or how to treat non-muslims in the Koran? or quran. whatever, i have read some of it, and i reject it out of hand. people can believe whatever they want in my mind, religion can be a very good thing, too.....but the bad effects of Islam seem to outweigh its' basically non-existent contributions to mankind for hundreds of years.

and as an agnostic, i have to remind atheists/agnostics who go on their anti-religion dogma trip of atheist stalinist russia, atheist khmer rouge, atheist North Korea, etc. atheists hardly have room to talk, considering these were in this century, too. spare me the anti-Christian rationalizations, they make no sense and isn't intelligent to say "yeah, but look what they did in 1300!". when is the last time a young Christian male or female strapped a bomb to themselves and blew up a bus load of women and children? ho many mosques get grenades thrown into them by Christians? How many Hindus or Buddhists die for god mass murdering a school full of kids? sure, don;t judge the indivdual, that;s basic intelligence, but to lump Hindus and Christians and generalize them as "bad" as muslims because "all religions have their bad people", you're not noticing the obvious.

sheesh

2% (maybe more) of the US Military is Muslim. I'm sure Rummy knows. Anyway, my time is up. I'm just a civie now. But, once a Ranger, always a Ranger.

Well, whatever, it was a hollow threat anyhow. Even if I *could* do it, I have no intention of doing it. It was more to illustrate a point.


I reacted to hostility with hostility. Check back. You can't sit there and say to a Muslim that "all Muslims must be held accountable for what even one of them does" and not expect anger. It's like saying "all black people steal and deal crack" to a black man. I may be a liberal, but I'm not Ghandi. When you say that all Muslims must be held accountable for, say, 9/11, then you are saying my son - who wasn't even born yet (he's 2) - must be held accountable. I react with hostility when blatant hostility is shown towards my children.

Funny, that is exactly why I am so mad at Islam. I was stuck in England, helping a relative bury his 2 year old daughter, when 9/11 occured. My 9 month old infant daughter was sick at home, and I was stranded. Keep in mind, your child is no more a "guaranteed muslim" than mine is a "guaranteed asshole". Additionally, I do think all Muslims should be held accountable for the actions of the extremists within their community, in so far as they need to address the issue and resolve it within their own community. If the Muslim community held it's own extremists solely accountable, that would have a tremendous ostricizing effect on those extremists. But when ignorant Palestinian women *and* successful, westernized, Egyptian businessmen BOTH find justification in that woman's son becoming a suicide bomber, that doesn't help the problem. And you can't deny that this example rings true. It may not ALWAYS be the case, but it *is* the case in an alarming number of examples. Maybe your child, growing up in a world where so much of the world is ANGRY at Islam, will ask questions about his/her own religion and what might need to be changed. That would be a good start.

That's a human thing, not a Muslim thing. You'd do the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

Absolutely... see my reasoning above. I can completely relate...


So what would you suggest? We cow? If someone screams that all Muslims are evil and should be wiped out, we should just say, "Yes, you are right. We suck ass. We're the worst thing to ever crawl out of this planet."

Yeah ... right. Good luck with that initiative. I cow for no man.

Not exactly. Shit, man... I don't hold YOU personally accountable. I think you've illustrated where you stand. But I hold you accountable for holding the REST of your community accountable. I don't want you to roll over. I want you to say, "Man, you're right, we've got some problems in our community that WE need to address, and WE'RE going to get together and let those people know THEIR actions are unacceptable and that WE will hold them accountable and that OUR anger will make yours look tame and pale in comparisson".

Using the "black man = all blacks are on crack" analogy... Yeah... I want you to take the Bill Cosby approach. I want you to realize we're not going to "fix" you, we'll just *fix* you... That you need to fix yourselves and overcome. Truly overcome. I know that is a tall order... but that kind of voice, it starts with you... it starts with single voices saying, "This *is* bullshit, and we're NOT going to tolerate it".

I can tell a black man what the problems with his community are all day, until I turn blue, and it won't change a thing. I can get a MILLION white men telling the entire black community what is wrong with itself all day and it won't change a thing...

You get a million BLACK men telling the black community what is wrong with itself, all day, and things might start to change. Hopefully those million black men are saying the RIGHT things, to make the right kind of change.

That is it. I'm off my soapbox, I'm going to bed. I hope I've made you think about my perspective, even just a little bit. I hope I haven't offended you SO badly in making my point that my point is hopelessly lost. I hope we find a solution to the issues at hand that balances the things that need to be balanced... I hope you have a good life, full of peace, enjoying watching your child grow up and meeting all of your expectations. Sincerely, as one father to another.

thats the christian idea...
islam preaches that all conquered countrys that follow the book (bible tora, wotever) and one god can follow their own belief... at some extra taxes but still.
Christians just whacked the shit out of other faiths or ppl without faith or even ppl that looked different.

WHEN IS THE LAST TIME THAT HAPPENED?

Additionally, I do think all Muslims should be held accountable for the actions of the extremists within their community, in so far as they need to address the issue and resolve it within their own community. If the Muslim community held it's own extremists solely accountable, that would have a tremendous ostricizing effect on those extremists.

Ah! Guess what? We do. Why do you think bin Laden hasn't done anything since 9/11? He's scared of Bush? Hardly. His own people ... my people ... berate the hell out of him on a daily basis that the slaying of the innocent is wrong, is against Qur'an, and if he doesn't turn himself in and repent, then Allah will punish him beyond measure. We will not, however, turn him in ourselves as turning in your brother - even if he is an evil brother - is a sin.

[note to feds watching: yes, that's right, you heard me. If bin Laden showed up at my house, I would not turn him in to you. I would make it a crummy experience for him, but I wouldn't turn him in.]

Just because we don't make such things public doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't feel the need to advertise how we deal with our brothers any more than I, personally, feel the need to tell you how I discipline my children.

Make sense?

I hope I haven't offended you SO badly in making my point that my point is hopelessly lost.

That, my friend, is not possible. It is why lines of communication must be constantly kept open. Even speaking harshly eventually yields to common ground.

WHEN IS THE LAST TIME THAT HAPPENED?

It's happening now. Look around ... and hit your capslock.

The one's I can recall back of my head in the south-east Asia region,

Riots in Indonesia 1998, Malaysian Riots May 1969.

Most in the backwater villages, Which represent 70% of Muslim Malays(not too sure about Indonesia).

Lots of mass rapes, mass murders, forced conversions, burning of churches, that sort of bunch. I personally knew a family that was wiped out during Indonesian 1998 riot. :(

I have to correct you there. The Malaysian 1969 riots were race based, not religion based. The Communist insurgency has just been put down so there was tension everywhere.

Forced conversions? Maybe u r talking about Indonesia, but that sure as hell wasn't in Malaysia.

Just because we don't make such things public doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't feel the need to advertise how we deal with our brothers any more than I, personally, feel the need to tell you how I discipline my children.

Please elaborate why it's more important to air "al-shatat" or "bab-el shams" than fatwas on bin-laden for panarabic/iranian/syrian TV stations.

Please tell me why muslims are not at all concerned about any *public relations* efforts, at such a crucial time. We're not even asking you to be sincere, since some of us know what taqqya is, or understand arabic.

/Google those series. If I explain what it is, people won't believe me.
//no, really

I have to correct you there. The Malaysian 1969 riots were race based, not religion based. The Communist insurgency has just been put down so there was tension everywhere.

Forced conversions? Maybe u r talking about Indonesia, but that sure as hell wasn't in Malaysia.


Race, religion and political. The malays didn't want Kuala Lumpur (the capital) taken over by DAP after the elections.

*DAP = A political party believing in freedom & equality of rights for all races and religions. Wanting to take away the special priveledges that only the Malay (Bumiputra's, Princes of the Earth) have. Lol. I think Malaysia is the only country in the world where special priveledges are given to the majority race of the nation.

Because of that, the slaughter began on all the other races, and thats why Kuala Lumpur is divided quite funnily right now compared to 1969. With many more malay kampungs to even out the population.

Although It was mostly the Malays and Chinese (because Indians during that period were mostly still in the estates). And don't forget 'Operation lalang' that followed after that. The blaming the Christians, shutting down of churches and imprisonement of Pastors/Priests Etc... Took my church pastor away too. After that, when he returned from prison after several months, he straight away migrated to NZ. (NZ was giving amnesty to the Christians during the 70's)

Your right about Forced conversions in Malaysia, that it didn't happend. It was just pure massacre of the Chinese.

Of course they wouldn't tell you that in the history text books.

Please elaborate why it's more important to air "al-shatat" or "bab-el shams" than fatwas on bin-laden for panarabic/iranian/syrian TV stations.

I dunno ... for the same reason the US will show television like "Who's Your Daddy?" and back to back very special episodes of "Moesha". It's just television. As for fatwas on bin Laden, there really aren't any that I'm personally aware of. A fatwa is a religious decree ... they range anywhere from "Give as much as you can to help tsunami victims" to "It is a blessing for men to grow their beards". Bin Laden put out his own particular nasty fatwa in 1998, but that doesn't mean all Muslims listen to it. A fatwa is not a commandment. It's just some Imam or Cleric who decides his particular group of followers - how ever small or large they may be - should do something or not do something for the benefit of the community. Some follow it, some don't. A fatwa is not something that one dude sitting in a cave somewhere can issue and all 1.3 - 1.5 billion Muslims must then do.

Please tell me why muslims are not at all concerned about any *public relations* efforts, at such a crucial time. We're not even asking you to be sincere, since some of us know what taqqya is, or understand arabic.

Why should we be? I have no reason to qualify or justify myself. It is good enough that I say, "I am Muslim". People will decide for themselves what that means and how they want to react. There is no judge except Allah and I am not bound to rectify who I am versus who bin Laden is based on some people's paranoia.

Taqqya, by the way, is still lying. Every culture has their fancy words to justify lies. It doesn't make it right.

Incidently, I'm not Arab. I'm Native American and Irish.

Anyway, on CNN's Talk Back America program on September 16, 2001, Al-Haaj Ghazi Khankan of CAIR said the following:

"To associate Islam with bin Laden is like associating Christianity with Timothy McVeigh or Judaism with Dr. Baruch Goldstein" [who murdered 27 Muslims at prayer in a Hebron mosque].

I can't even begin to go into detail the huge and very public outcry by Muslims from around the world - including Saudi Arabia - following the 9/11 attacks which parallel statements as above.

What do we have to do? Wear T-shirts that say it? Get it carved into our foreheads? Repeat it every moment of every day? Rewrite Qur'an so that it contains a new Surah condemning bin Laden?

We gave you what you wanted and still you want more and more and more and more. We gave up trying. It will never be enough. Google it for yourself.

I dunno ... for the same reason the US will show television like "Who's Your Daddy?" and back to back very special episodes of "Moesha". It's just television. As for fatwas on bin Laden, there really aren't any that I'm personally aware of. A fatwa is a religious decree ... they range anywhere from "Give as much as you can to help tsunami victims" to "It is a blessing for men to grow their beards". Bin Laden put out his own particular nasty fatwa in 1998, but that doesn't mean all Muslims listen to it. A fatwa is not a commandment. It's just some Imam or Cleric who decides his particular group of followers - how ever small or large they may be - should do something or not do something for the benefit of the community. Some follow it, some don't. A fatwa is not something that one dude sitting in a cave somewhere can issue and all 1.3 - 1.5 billion Muslims must then do.

Yes. That doesn't answer my question at all, except reminding me of the existence of Moesha. (curse you) I'll ask it more bluntly. Why bother with Salman Rushdie (his book sucks, but come on!), and specifically not with bin laden? You can't say "it's just television" by trying to compare weak sitcoms with US-and-jew-hating propaganda.


Why should we be? I have no reason to qualify or justify myself. It is good enough that I say, "I am Muslim". People will decide for themselves what that means and how they want to react. There is no judge except Allah and I am not bound to rectify who I am versus who bin Laden is based on some people's paranoia.


Then stop calling others bigots. If you don't care about their opinion, why do you even bother?


Taqqya, by the way, is still lying. Every culture has their fancy words to justify lies. It doesn't make it right.


But it's authorized for the greater good of Jihad. Are you contesting the hadiths?


Incidently, I'm not Arab. I'm Native American and Irish.

Anyway, on CNN's Talk Back America program on September 16, 2001, Al-Haaj Ghazi Khankan of CAIR said the following:

"To associate Islam with bin Laden is like associating Christianity with Timothy McVeigh or Judaism with Dr. Baruch Goldstein" [who murdered 27 Muslims at prayer in a Hebron mosque].


That's just low. I'm going to compare a firecracker with the A-bomb, or a drop of water with an ocean. No western, industrialized, country has produced an act of terrorism such as 9/11. Yes, you can counter those facts by saying that amerikkka is the über-evil and does plenty of "legal wars", but for the sake of discussion, do not minimize 9/11 by comparing it to much smaller-scale, although evidently reprehensible kills.


I can't even begin to go into detail the huge and very public outcry by Muslims from around the world - including Saudi Arabia - following the 9/11 attacks which parallel statements as above.

What do we have to do? Wear T-shirts that say it? Get it carved into our foreheads? Repeat it every moment of every day? Rewrite Qur'an so that it contains a new Surah condemning bin Laden?

We gave you what you wanted and still you want more and more and more and more. We gave up trying. It will never be enough. Google it for yourself.

Nothing was heard of here in Europe. And we have more muslims here than in the USA. In fact, over the past few years, there has been more outcry against western civilization than terrorism.

I've seen more bin-laden and "fuck bush" T-shirts in the streets, but that's everyday France for you, I'm not going to take that into account.

What if you booed the national anthem before a sports event in America? What would happen? You'd surely get your ass kicked. Here in France, it happened during a soccer match between France and Algeria - most arab and sephardic immigrants came here from Algeria after their independance war, including my family. Then, as the Algerian team was losing easily to the then-world champions, a huge mass of supporters ended the match in a riot, descending on the field of France's largest stadium. Chants of "allahu akbar", "ittbach al yahoude", or "fuck france" galore accompanied the riots.

It was a massive public demonstration, not the problem of a "crazy minority".

So no, it's not enough. You can't rewrite the koran, so as such, you can't erase the glorification of the ethnic cleansing of the arabic peninsula, or mahomet marrying abu-bakir's six-year old daughter at the age of fifty-four and deflowering her when she was nine, and I don't give a damn about those tales.

But by accepting to convert to islam, you made your bed, now sleep in it.

Nice story Tcherbeb.

But like most of us, we don't hate Islam.

But we are appalled by the fact that there's lots of Ignorance thinking that Islam is totally moderate, and is docile with other religions in many places of the world. I think it really shows the different worlds we live in. :p

I do not know about 1st world progressive countries. But to 2nd and 3rd world Muslim countries, their all mostly still very fundemantal in their thinking.

Fundamental, but not necessarily radical. There's a difference. Radical would go out and destroy people of other religions.

Fundamental to me means that their very backward thinking that Islam is the only religion in the world, their laws, rulings etc are still very Islam-cultural based.

Example : Steal in a northern state of Malaysia, and they'll cut off your hands. If you marry a person who is muslim, and your not, you MUST convert, or your marriage is considered nullified by the government.

In Malaysia, the malay(race) MUST be muslim. If they convert to any other religion, they will be pursecuted by the religious leaders and the people at large (vandalising their house and property to beatings and jail). Hence, some of my Malay friends who change religions are either converts by secret, or have left the nation to NZ and Australia mostly.

This thread's still going and still new views and insights are coming out? Excellent.

I knew I was going to enjoy these forums! :)

This thread's still going and still new views and insights are coming out? Excellent.

I knew I was going to enjoy these forums! :)

Yes, this thread is not bad. Plus got good views from all sides.

Though people shouldn't take it personally. Think might be getting some bad blood sooner. :p

When has a Christian ever threatened to kill you, your family, and destroy your entire people?

In northern Ireland ? Daily. Recently elsewhere? Depends if you're gay or not.
In all of history ? Plenty of times.

When in the last 200 yrs has the Christian Church issued a Holy War against all non Christians?
When have Christians funded terrorist orginizations by using CHILDRENS charities?
When have Christians threatened to destroy civilization?

Do gay people count ? But ignoring the last 200 year bit the answer to all these questions is "quite often throughout their history". Sorry, but the holy church has acted far from holy during the 2000 years of its existence. Take a look at what happened at the civilisations of South America.
Recently it seems to behave better in this respect though.
Counterquestion: when have muslim priests last molested their equivalent of altarboys/girls ?

How about five conflicts in the world that _don't_ involve the peaceful religion of Islam?

Here's an easy one
1) Protestant v. Catholic over Northern Ireland

2) The separist Basque movement in Spain.
3) Russia versus some of its former provinces
4) China vs. Taiwan
5) The cold war - which even though it's ended now should still be mentioned. It is pretty recent after all.
6) The Roman Catholic Church vs Condoms. (yes, this one sounds silly. But if you think about it it probably has caused (or will cause) more deaths than 9/11)
7) The USA and the war on drugs. Unfortunately there are few reliable sources to confirm the USA sprays pesticides on villages, so all the horror stories may be propaganda.

But ignoring the last 200 year bit the answer to all these questions is "quite often throughout their history". Sorry, but the holy church has acted far from holy during the 2000 years of its existence. Take a look at what happened at the civilisations of South America.
Recently it seems to behave better in this respect though.


You're missing the point entirely, since he asked what's happened over the last 200 years. Are you excusing fundamentalist theocracies for behaving, today, the same as when western states did centuries ago?

Wouldn't it be a better idea to encourage them to join the rest of us and try not to behead infidels once in a while?

Seriously, why? It's completely pointless; I mean, most of you hadn't ever given thought to Islam until the September 11th attack, and now hate groups are springing up all over the place. Why hate all Muslims for the actions of a few morons? Why demean all Islamic nations as evil because a few people from them are? Why?
I don't, nor will I ever understand it. It is completely ridiculous.

I have no problem with Muslims as people. What I cant stand though, are Islamic nations who clearly persecute Christianity. Saudia Arabia is my particular target here.

You're missing the point entirely, since he asked what's happened over the last 200 years.
Note that the 200 years restrcition applied only to the first of the 3 quoted sentences. And that I also stated that the Church behaves somewhat better nowadays - even though I consider its crusade against the condom a disguised form of attempted genocide.

Are you excusing fundamentalist theocracies for behaving, today, the same as when western states did centuries ago?
In a philosophical sense: tricky one. What right do "we" have to tell other countries they can not do things we did to get where we are today ?
Practically: They should indeed have learned from our mistakes.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to encourage them to join the rest of us and try not to behead infidels once in a while?
Are you sure our world is better ? Take a GOOD look at it.
And realise Islamic culture does consist of more than 'people beheading infidels'.

We will not, however, turn him in ourselves as turning in your brother - even if he is an evil brother - is a sin.

[note to feds watching: yes, that's right, you heard me. If bin Laden showed up at my house, I would not turn him in to you. I would make it a crummy experience for him, but I wouldn't turn him in.]


Yoda: "THAT is why you fail."

If I had a God, (I don't, lucky me) and some sick cretin claiming to be one of my fellow believers was doing evil in the name of that God, I would consider it a moral IMPERATIVE that he be stopped. And that since he is doing this evil in the name of MY God, it would be my, PERSONAL imperative to stop him.

All else is the vilest hypocracy, and brings dishonor to one's God, one's belief, and one's name.

Yoda: "THAT is why you fail."

If I had a God, (I don't, lucky me) and some sick cretin claiming to be one of my fellow believers was doing evil in the name of that God, I would consider it a moral IMPERATIVE that he be stopped. And that since he is doing this evil in the name of MY God, it would be my, PERSONAL imperative to stop him.

All else is the vilest hypocracy, and brings dishonor to one's God, one's belief, and one's name.

And who are you to judge what Bin Laden is doing as evil? Is he evil because America and the West decree it? Are you arrogant enough to believe that you are the "civilized world" and Bin Laden and the rest of his followers are "uncivilized"?... Your definition of civility varies from his. He view YOU as the savages. And who's to say that God, if there is one, doesn't like Bin Laden? For all we know, everyone on Earth might go to hell, including moderate/liberal Muslims, and Bin Laden and Co. might be the only guys who end up in heaven..

That would make God twisted, I know, but then again, who the hell are you to tell Him what's right?.. (If He exists after all, that is)

And who are you to judge what Bin Laden is doing as evil? Is he evil because America and the West decree it? Are you arrogant enough to believe that you are the "civilized world" and Bin Laden and the rest of his followers are "uncivilized"?... Your definition of civility varies from his. He view YOU as the savages. And who's to say that God, if there is one, doesn't like Bin Laden? For all we know, everyone on Earth might go to hell, including moderate/liberal Muslims, and Bin Laden and Co. might be the only guys who end up in heaven..

That would make God twisted, I know, but then again, who the hell are you to tell Him what's right?.. (If He exists after all, that is)
It's evil because it caused the death of 3,000 innocent civilians. It's evil because it breeds this kind of hate for you and your coreligionists throughout the world. If there is a god who favors bin laden then it would more properly be called a devil. If you sympathize with him you are my enemy.

It's evil because it caused the death of 3,000 innocent civilians. It's evil because it breeds this kind of hate for you and your coreligionists throughout the world. If there is a god who favors bin laden then it would more properly be called a devil. If you sympathize with him you are my enemy.

ًWho said anything about sympathizing with the bastard?

It's just that your post was made from YOUR SUBJECTIVE point of view. We cannot make an objective conclusion on the legitmacy of bin Laden's "War on America" or America's "War on Terror" because we are all tied to it.

If we cannot separate ourselves from something, we cannot define and analyze it. We cannot separate ourselves from language, ethics, or religion, and therefore, we cannot really analyze them objectively.

His morality is different than yours. You view him as evil. He views you as evil. His terrorist attacks caused the death of what? 10,000 people total? The American War on Iraq killed many more than that. But, that's just collateral damage right? you're the RIGHT ones, so it doesn't matter, right? Plus, 3000 American souls are 10^20 times more valuable than Iraqi souls.. I should have known better.. I apologize.. damn my non-American ignorance! :rolleyes:

I don't hate Muslims at all. I just detest the batshit ones like the Asshola Killmany, Osama bitch Laden, Yasser Are-a-fat-ass, Col. Muammar Godawful, etc.

I hate Muslims simply because they are the source of all of my troubles. President Bush is a great man. He is the only one who seems to understand that the world will be a better place with all the Muslims wiped off the face of it. Whenever a Muslim walks by my window, I shout at him about how he's a disgrace to Jesus and then throw rocks at him.

I've never in all my life seen such an ignorant, racist comment. My advice to you is read what Jesus said about tolerance in the Gospels. Then you can come back and still say they are a "disgrase to Jesus". You're just about as tolerant as al-Qa'eda is. For your sake, I hope you were being sarcastic.

ًWho said anything about sympathizing with the bastard?

It's just that your post was made from YOUR SUBJECTIVE point of view. We cannot make an objective conclusion on the legitmacy of bin Laden's "War on America" or America's "War on Terror" because we are all tied to it.

If we cannot separate ourselves from something, we cannot define and analyze it. We cannot separate ourselves from language, ethics, or religion, and therefore, we cannot really analyze them objectively.

His morality is different than yours. You view him as evil. He views you as evil. His terrorist attacks caused the death of what? 10,000 people total? The American War on Iraq killed many more than that. But, that's just collateral damage right? you're the RIGHT ones, so it doesn't matter, right? Plus, 3000 American souls are 10^20 times more valuable than Iraqi souls.. I should have known better.. I apologize.. damn my non-American ignorance! :rolleyes:
The 9/11 attacks made it much easier for bush to justify the Iraq invasion. People were scared of WMD falling into the hands of terrorists. I'm not excusing the Iraq war. It was a monumental and indefensible error on bush's part, but bin laden made it possible.

I find it facinating that the question wasn't along the lines of Why so many muslims hate America, or Israel.

It's easy to ask "Why do so many people hate Muslims" but the fact of the matter is there is a whole bunch of hate spewing out there and you can't point an accusatory finger at only one side. Saudi clerics teach and preach death to America, a filmaker that dared to make a documentary about women under Islam was mudered in Holland, Homosexuals in Palestine flee to Israel so they won't be arrested or killed. Trust me, plenty of hate to go around, I find your one-sided question suspect at best.

Ah! Guess what? We do. Why do you think bin Laden hasn't done anything since 9/11? He's scared of Bush? Hardly. His own people ... my people ... berate the hell out of him on a daily basis that the slaying of the innocent is wrong, is against Qur'an, and if he doesn't turn himself in and repent, then Allah will punish him beyond measure. We will not, however, turn him in ourselves as turning in your brother - even if he is an evil brother - is a sin.

[note to feds watching: yes, that's right, you heard me. If bin Laden showed up at my house, I would not turn him in to you. I would make it a crummy experience for him, but I wouldn't turn him in.]

Just because we don't make such things public doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We don't feel the need to advertise how we deal with our brothers any more than I, personally, feel the need to tell you how I discipline my children.

Make sense?



That, my friend, is not possible. It is why lines of communication must be constantly kept open. Even speaking harshly eventually yields to common ground.

I saw this last night but I was just too beat to respond. I can *absolutely* respect the strict code of ethics in relation to honor within most Muslim communities. I think it is one of the things that Westerners have consistently found fascinating about Islamic culture through the centuries. Western moralities are quite flexible by comparisson. I think the fascination comes from the fact that a Westerner *knows* the actions of his blood-brother might surprise him, based on the circumstances, yet a Muslim who is a total stranger can be relied on to act a certain way in a certain circumstance, if you understand the culture, for example, providing asylum or sanctuary.

But, although this kind of code of ethics is highly romanticized, it has huge failings in practical application. Mafia family codes are, to a large extent, the same kind of thing, surprisingly enough. Street-gang loyalty is similar, as well.

Additionally, from the perspective of those outside of the INSIDE of the particular culture in question, the actions and activities surrounding these cultures seems erratic, irresponsible, inexplicable.

Rightly or wrongly, it is out of step with how the rest of society handles problems and conflict. It creates confusion, misunderstanding, resentment, and anger.

We're talking about basically cloistered communities. Islamic cultures, crime syndicates, even secret societies. They don't let the outside in, don't let the outside understand their reasons, and are often very offended when those outside cultures do not understand the honor involved in every action within these cloistered communities. They're also, unforuntately, often a breeding group for corruption.

In regards strictly to the strife between Western societies and Islamic ones, right now, I think clearly, a cultural gap of epic proportions. And I'm not saying that one culture is superior in values or customs... but I do think it is on Islam to kind of put it's pride on the side and come forward and speak about what is really going on.

I guess we *are* starting to see some of that... Muslims coming forward and saying, "Yeah, I understand it *looks* a certain way, but you've got to understand the difference between our culture and yours"...

More people in the middle, pretty much always the answer, in any problem. Unfortunately, right now, exactly the opposite is happening. We're getting more polarization and more people on the extremes, and LESS people in the middle. THAT is the biggest danger, in my opinion.

ًWho said anything about sympathizing with the bastard?

It's just that your post was made from YOUR SUBJECTIVE point of view. We cannot make an objective conclusion on the legitmacy of bin Laden's "War on America" or America's "War on Terror" because we are all tied to it.

If we cannot separate ourselves from something, we cannot define and analyze it. We cannot separate ourselves from language, ethics, or religion, and therefore, we cannot really analyze them objectively.

His morality is different than yours. You view him as evil. He views you as evil. His terrorist attacks caused the death of what? 10,000 people total? The American War on Iraq killed many more than that. But, that's just collateral damage right? you're the RIGHT ones, so it doesn't matter, right? Plus, 3000 American souls are 10^20 times more valuable than Iraqi souls.. I should have known better.. I apologize.. damn my non-American ignorance! :rolleyes:

You're not ignorant. You're just trying to lay claim to an utterly nonexistent "objective" moral relativist point-of-view.

If you actually hold true to your stated belief, then you must now chastize yourself for criticizing my prior statement, as your criticism is based upon your equally subjective point of view.

And that fact should demonstrate convincingly that your philosophy is valueless, as it must necessarily lead to a complete lack of ability to make any statements of opinion or judgement whatsoever.

It's not ignorant. It's just stupid.

Oh, and for the record, yes, my soul is a billion times more valuable to me than yours is.

Because I'm me, and you're not. :p

I hate Muslims because once, when I was little, I went to a mosque, and a Muslim shot my dad in the face.

Plus, they smell funny.

And, they talk stupid. "Lalaloolalahoohoo!"

Originally Posted by Greenmanbry
ًWho said anything about sympathizing with the bastard?

It's just that your post was made from YOUR SUBJECTIVE point of view. We cannot make an objective conclusion on the legitmacy of bin Laden's "War on America" or America's "War on Terror" because we are all tied to it.

If we cannot separate ourselves from something, we cannot define and analyze it. We cannot separate ourselves from language, ethics, or religion, and therefore, we cannot really analyze them objectively.

His morality is different than yours. You view him as evil. He views you as evil. His terrorist attacks caused the death of what? 10,000 people total? The American War on Iraq killed many more than that. But, that's just collateral damage right? you're the RIGHT ones, so it doesn't matter, right? Plus, 3000 American souls are 10^20 times more valuable than Iraqi souls.. I should have known better.. I apologize.. damn my non-American ignorance!

You all claim to know your history so well. Do you know the ONLY non-Muslim, Non-Middle Eastern State to every successfully occupy Afghanistan?

Do you?!?

The Roman Empire.

Do you know how they achieved this? If a SINGLE Roman citizen or soldier was killed in Roman occupied Afghanistan, the Romans would kill every last man, woman and child in that city or village. They would then march *every* Afghani in -every- neighboring city through the decimated city, point to the mountain of corpses, and say, "THAT... is what one Roman life is worth. We are giving you the choice, become a Roman, or become THAT."

The first time I was told this, by a guy with a Doctorate and a minor in Islamic Studies trying to make me understand Islamic culture... I responded...

"Unfortunately, I am evidently a Roman."

There is a clear difference between America's provoked attack on Iraq as one legitimate, acknowledged government attacking another *legitimate*, albiet rouge government and it's military targets (right or wrong, and with collateral damages or not) and Osama's illegitimate attack DIRECTLY on innocent civilian non-military targets.

If you can't distinguish that difference... well... uh... Go to hell.

You're right... evil and good are a matter of perspective. The Empire is still bad, the Rebels are still good. Darth is still a prick, Luke is still a champion of righteousness. You're gonna have to shelve your Lucasfilm Inc. philosophy for *this* debate. Sorry.

You're right... evil and good are a matter of perspective. The Empire is still bad, the Rebels are still good. Darth is still a prick, Luke is still a champion of righteousness. You're gonna have to shelve your Lucasfilm Inc. philosophy for *this* debate. Sorry.

Actually, as I read it, the Republic did bugger all about slavery in outlying systems like tatooine. At least the Empire tried to bring in some law and order, so you can't say Darth was all bad.

Actually, as I read it, the Republic did bugger all about slavery in outlying systems like tatooine. At least the Empire tried to bring in some law and order, so you can't say Darth was all bad.

I'm sure the Empire was also better at dealing with intergalactic pedophilia, drug smuggling, political corruption, and a host of other social evils...

So was Nazi Germany.

If you're going to play the Star Wars card... I'm gonna pull out the Hitler Joker I've got up my sleeve.

And we *all* know once the Hitler card is played, it is game over for a thread. Time to count up points and decide who has won.