NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I know many of you don't give a darn about anything Christain, but I had some thoughts, and since many of the threads around here are things that are controversial, I wanted to ask one. Judas, Heaven or Hell?

Kinda long, but what do you all think?

first, I want to say is, Christ knew who his betrayer was, and had announced it at the last supper. During that supper he also said that all those sitting with him would sit on the thrones in heaven.


Luke 22:28

"You have stayed with me through my struggles. Just as my Father has given me a kingdom, I also give you a kingdom so you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." New Century Version

"You are the ones who have stayed with me throughout my trials. Just as my Father gave me the right to rule, so I give you an appointment, namely, to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom and to sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Isra'el" JNTP


Also Christ said to get to heaven one must repent and believe in Him. Faith and repentence were both found in Judas.

Matthew 27:3

"Judas, the who had given Jesus to his enemies, saw that they had decided to kill Jesus. Then he was very sorry for what he had done. So he took the thirty silver coins back to the priests and the leaders, saying "I sinned; I handed over to you an innocent man." New Century

"When Y'hudah, who had betrayed him, saw that Yeshua had been condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the head cohanim and elders, saying, "I sinned in betraying an innocent man to death." JNTP

The crimes that Christ had been accused of were claiming a false title and teaching against the Temple. Yet Judas says Christ was innocent, showing that he still believed.

Many people continue to say that Judas is damned because he killed himself, because he hanged himself. Though this isn't done in the fashion most of us think of. He cast himself on the earth in such a way to break one's neck. Its an old practice done in the time period of Christ's death.

I wonder what person, knowing that, in his understanding, he had just killed Christ could live with themselves. Knowing you had betrayed G-d's Son.

Also the bible speaks of Satan entering Judas.

Luke 22:3
"Satan entered Judas Iscariot, one of Jesus' twelve apostles." NCV
"At this point the Adversary went into Y'hudah from K'riot, who was one of the Twelve"JNTP

John 6:70
"Then Jesus answered, "I chose all twelve of you, but one of you is a devil"NCV
"Yeshua answered them, "Didn't I choose you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is an adversary." JNTP

John 13:26
"Jesus answered, "I will dip this bread into the dish. The man I give it to is the man who will turn against me." So Jesus took a piece of bread, dipped it and gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered him." NCV

"Yeshua, answered, "It's the one to whom I give this piece of mitzah after I dip it in the dish." So he dipped the piece of mitzah and gave it to Y'hudah Ben-Shim'on from K'riot. As soon as Y'hudah took the piece of matzah, the Adversary went into him." JNTP

---
The power of Satan over took Judas, and made him do things that were evil and foul. He turned Judas into a man that betrayed his Lord, and in result of that betrayal, Christ was put to death. Yet this must happen, it could not happen any other way.

In the end even Judas met the requirements of Christ's message. That faith in what happened and that Christ was the Savior. He announced to the priest's that he had sinned and that he had betrayed an innocent man. And then cast himself upon the earth, and died.

Christ knew this was to happen, and he never once rebuked Judas. He told all twelve of his followeres that they would sit upon the 12 thrones of the 12 tribes. Why would he include Judas, if He had known that Judas was damned? Would that not make Christ a liar for saying that all those with him would be in heaven with him?

--
These are my thoughts, and my own personal revelations. Its up to all of you that read this to make your own call.

not as much attention as I was hoping for, though I did get some votes, just no responces....

oh come on people, someone needs to say something, I've got yay and nay, and yet no reasons....

Judas is burned to hell NOT BECAUSE HE BETRAYED JESUS BUT BECAUSE:
HE COMMITED SUICIDE. THIS IS CONSIDERED AS MURDER I.E TAKING AWAY A LIFE GOD GAVE. JUDAS HANGED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE FELT GUILTY. WE CAN ASSUMED THAT HE REGRETTED HIS ACT.
NOW IF INSTEAD OF COMMITING SUICIDE, HE APOLOGISED TO GOD. THEN FOR SURE GOD WOULD HAVE FORGIVE HIS ACTS.

Judas is burned to hell NOT BECAUSE HE BETRAYED JESUS BUT BECAUSE:
HE COMMITED SUICIDE. THIS IS CONSIDERED AS MURDER I.E TAKING AWAY A LIFE GOD GAVE. JUDAS HANGED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE FELT GUILTY. WE CAN ASSUMED THAT HE REGRETTED HIS ACT.
NOW IF INSTEAD OF COMMITING SUICIDE, HE APOLOGISED TO GOD. THEN FOR SURE GOD WOULD HAVE FORGIVE HIS ACTS.
so when Jesus said he would see each of them in heaven, he lied?

more votes, one statement, but no reading of the post I think. Just reactions of the title

I believe he was forgiven and went with God.

I believe he was forgiven and went with God.
as do I, though I've found that many think otherwise. A strong opinion about it comes from the Catholic faith too, where he is burning in hell with the other betrayers. I think even Dante talked about it

<--- Buddhist.

He created his own personal hell.

<--- Buddhist.

He created his own personal hell.
But in Budism, everyone creates their own hell when they do things that are negitive, and then when the next life is done, they can advance again towards enlightenment, so maybe, after living his next life he understands himself better and advances again. Thusly not being damned but saved regardless.

I think even Dante talked about it
He did.

He was being chewed by the Devil in the center of Cocytus along with Brutus and Cassius.

Apparently treachery is the worse sin. With Satan, Judas, Brutus and Cassius being the worse traitors ever.

Satan betrayed God
Judas betrayed Jesus, son of God
Cassius and Brutus betrayed Julius Ceasar and the World Order, established state etc etc.

Anyway, even if Judas didn't go to hell to betraying Jesus, he would have anyway for commiting suicide (a mortal sin according to the Church)

Oh, God had a special place reserved for Judas, a very special place. As a middle school band director.

Oh, God had a special place reserved for Judas, a very special place. As a middle school band director.
lol, but saved or damned? thats a tough on by your answer, lol.

He did.

He was being chewed by the Devil in the center of Cocytus along with Brutus and Cassius.

Apparently treachery is the worse sin. With Satan, Judas, Brutus and Cassius being the worse traitors ever.

Satan betrayed God
Judas betrayed Jesus, son of God
Cassius and Brutus betrayed Julius Ceasar and the World Order, established state etc etc.

Anyway, even if Judas didn't go to hell to betraying Jesus, he would have anyway for commiting suicide (a mortal sin according to the Church)

but if he went to Hell, wouldn't that make Christ wrong when he said he would sit with them in heaven?

We all die with sin on our hearts, but its the faith that Christ is our savior that keeps us from eternal death.

but if he went to Hell, wouldn't that make Christ wrong when he said he would sit with them in heaven?

Well, I don't buy it, being an atheist and all. Just explaining the Inferno.

But Jesus could have not been talking about Judas, but just the rest.

Personally I think Judas should be in heaven since he was integral to fulfilling that 'prophesy'

We all die with sin on our hearts, but its the faith that Christ is our savior that keeps us from eternal death.

That is why the Catholic Church has purgatory. To punish us for a relitively short amount of time for sins that really aren't that bad.

Whilst Hell is for those with cardinal or mortal sins go.

Well, I don't buy it, being an atheist and all. Just explaining the Inferno.

But Jesus could have not been talking about Judas, but just the rest.

Personally I think Judas should be in heaven since he was integral to fulfilling that 'prophesy' -snip-

The part where he talks to his disiples he is talking to the 12, and he says all sitting at the table will rule the 12 thrones. So I would think he was very much talking to Judas and about Judas.

Also, Judas played his part in the whole things, if not him, someone else would had to have. And with the verses about the Devil entering him, and only leaving after Jesus is taken into captivity, Judas didn't really have the full blame. That and think of the mental load that would be on someone to understand and believe they killed G-d.

You're all forgetting a few things: God does not exist. There is no such tangible thing as heaven and hell. Jesus, if he existed, was a joiner who like hanging out with 12 mates, not the son of some mythical father figure.

All this clintonian hairsplitting, and especially over something as ridiculous as bible verses, is an exercise in time wasting.

You're all forgetting a few things: God does not exist. There is no such tangible thing as heaven and hell.

And?

I have already said I am an atheist, but enjoy talking about this kinda stuff

All this clintonian hairsplitting, and especially over something as ridiculous as bible verses, is an exercise in time wasting.

Yes. Welcome to the NS general forum :D

welcome to the NS General Forum

heh. Having read through some other threads, it appears I'm going to be wasting a lot of time :P

Judas... has passed on. 'E is no more. 'E has ceased to be. 'E has expired. 'E is pushing up the daisies. 'E's a stiff, bereft of life, rests in peace. 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-JUDAS!!

In other words, he's just dead.

In Response To "Lubricated Hedonism":

Wrong thread, mate - this is all covered elsewhere. First of all you can no more prove God does not exist as you can prove he does exist, it is all a question of BELIEF rather than KNOWLEDGE. Secondly what is a waste of time is knocking other people's religions: if they feel it is necessary to them, let them get on with it, mind your own business. More than anything though, there are so many other threads to do all this if you really feel you must...

[it is all a question of BELIEF rather than KNOWLEDGE

er. not true. I don't "believe" there is no god, I am convinced there is no god. There is an important difference there. All arguments are not equal, and blind faith simply does not stand up to the wealth of scientific evidence refuting all the major tenets of organised religion - creationism for example. That having been said, I accept that this has probably been debated elsewhere. I couldn't leave such abject nonsense unchallenged though.

Well, was he definately talking about Judas as one of the 12?

Mary Magdalene was one of his followers, but wasn't a disciple. However, if she was indeed married to Christ, then she'd probably get a throne. Otherwise it's just a bit tight on Mary.


And the seventh and lowest circle of Hell is the one saved for traitors and mutineers. Why exactly genocidal child molesters are considered less scummy has always worried me a bit.

Lucifer didn't betray God; God turned on Lucifer for daring to love himself EQUALLY as much as he loved God. If that doesn't seem like an over-reaction, the whole war in heaven thing resulted in the loss of two-thirds of all the choirs of angels. Just because Lucifer wasn't entirely and selflessly devoted to Jevovah.

Am I the only one who thinks God may have abandonment issues? :D

I was brought up a Catholic, and waht we were taught is that Judas IS damned. When Christ alluded to the twelve taking their place in heaven, it wasn't that He lied, it was that He HAD to say that.

The trouble with divine predestiny is that although He had foresight that Judas would betray Him, He had to pay lip service to the principle of VOLITION (i.e. free will). In other words, though Judas was predestined to act as he eventually did, at the time Christ was speaking, Judas could, in principle, have redeemed himself.

Generally, it is down once again to that tricky paradox of our own free choice also being pre-determined.

In Response To "Lubricated Hedonism":

Wrong thread, mate - this is all covered elsewhere. First of all you can no more prove God does not exist as you can prove he does exist, it is all a question of BELIEF rather than KNOWLEDGE. Secondly what is a waste of time is knocking other people's religions: if they feel it is necessary to them, let them get on with it, mind your own business. More than anything though, there are so many other threads to do all this if you really feel you must...


Yeah, but we've no solid proof that Jupiter isn't actually made of giant orange Yaks. Do you believe it might be?
A lack of proof of absence is no reason to say something might be. And the whole God thing has got sensible reasons for being made up, and few sensible reasons for actually existing.

it is not our place to judge.

Verthussia, i was brought up catholic too, and was taught the same thing. Difference is, I rejected it as nonsense. You seem to have bought into it though. "...we were taught" does not tell us what you think. Does predestiny really sit well with you ? If everything we do is already set out, then why do anything ? If christ was really the son of god, and really knew Judas would betray him, then he didn't have to pay lip service to anything. He's the son of god, he shouldn't have to do anything. Mysterious ways and all that.

The entire concept of free-will is totally at odds with religion. God is everything and everywhere, and his will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. The Angels have no free will, and so "his will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" just means that what God wants, happens. Any nonsense about 'fre will' was brought in to try and stop you going mad through the futility of it all.

I don't "believe" there is no god, I am convinced there is no god. There is an important difference there.
Any religious person in their "blind faith" would say exactly the same thing. It IS still only a belief. As for putting forward the idea that corporeal science is some kind of proof, it is hardly conclusive, as the very nature of "God" just as a concept is something that is transcendental.

Personally I strongly believe in very little regarding these matters because it is all a question of faith - and philosophically speaking, Atheism relies on faith as much as any theism does - but I think it is still all stimulating conjecture, even in the seeming subjectivity of a "Christ mythology".

Not so. Atheism relies on burden of proof, and there is NO burden of proof in favour of the existence of God.

Religion relies on faith, which means you can make up anything at all. Like fraud.

The entire concept of free-will is totally at odds with religion. God is everything and everywhere, and his will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. The Angels have no free will, and so "his will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven" just means that what God wants, happens. Any nonsense about 'fre will' was brought in to try and stop you going mad through the futility of it all.

There was a secret sect in England called "Dominus" who believed that Christ was tricked into going to His death at the Crucifixion by the conspiracy of the other two members of the Holy Trinity. These, and other "predestined" cults, might have a similar view that the apparent "gift" of "Free Will" is actually a cruel lie, used by the church to offset our inevitable damnation.

Well, Judas the traitor if not in Judecca (4th part of the icy hell floor) in one of the three mouths of Lucifer, would be in the 7th circle represented as a thorny bush forever in torment for commiting suicide (Violence against self). I believe that the guardian for that circle were 3 Harpies if I'm not mistaken.

Well, Being pagan, I don't belive in hell, so it's kind of a null point for me... :)

I think what we're essentially missing here is that religion is the tool of state, and originally came into existence to explain the unknown and keep the lower classes of society in place through a nonsensical 'carrot on a stick'. Then, as religion began to gather strength, it broke free of the state and began to grow seperately, until it could dictate to it's master. It's a good thing that this monothesiastical power was broken as otherwise we would remain in the dark ages.

Religion is evil.

Well, Judas the traitor if not in Judecca (4th part of the icy hell floor) in one of the three mouths of Lucifer, would be in the 7th circle represented as a thorny bush forever in torment for commiting suicide (Violence against self). I believe that the guardian for that circle were 3 Harpies if I'm not mistaken.


Your facts are straight by Dante, but I think you've got your cicrle numbers muddled.

Your facts are straight by Dante, but I think you've got your cicrle numbers muddled.

How so? I've got Hollander's copy right beside me.

In Response To "Lubricated Hedonism":

Wrong thread, mate - this is all covered elsewhere. First of all you can no more prove God does not exist as you can prove he does exist

Why should atheists prove non-existence? Burden of proof is on information not disinformation, otherwise anything can be taken as fact.

For instance, I say that the rings of Saturn are made of milk. Can you prove conclusively to me that the rings of saturn aren't made of milk? Cos if you can't and the burden of proof is on disinformation, that means they're made of milk.

Sorry, the rings of Saturn are made of Skittles.

Not so. Atheism relies on burden of proof, and there is NO burden of proof in favour of the existence of God.
Religion relies on faith, which means you can make up anything at all. Like fraud.
Well, the burden of proof argument works on the idea is that if there is no evidence for something, it probably doesn't exist - and yet there is evidence: millions of worshippers throughout history and the thinking behind the shaping of every human culture since the beginning of time.

But that's me playing Devil's Advocate. Certainly it is not conclusive and the useful transcendental nature of these matters makes it very convenient for religion. The trouble is that Atheists making the burden of proof argument need to face up to one problem: is there a trancendental?

You have to say there is: there is so much about the world, about the human condition, about nature that simply transcends our knowledge. As long as that is the case, we indeed only merely SUPPOSE there is no God, we don't know for sure - that is why the doctrine of the Atheist is just that: a question of BELIEF, a true scientist doesn't assert anything about what he doesn't know.

Sorry, the rings of Saturn are made of Skittles.

Oh well. I can't disprove that so I guess it must be true! ;)

Judas repented of his sins, and was saved from eternal damnation.

For instance, I say that the rings of Saturn are made of milk. Can you prove conclusively to me that the rings of saturn aren't made of milk? Cos if you can't and the burden of proof is on disinformation, that means they're made of milk.
I refer you to the post I've just made - but I love the little analogy. Where would the cow come from?

Sorry, the rings of Saturn are made of Skittles.

Didn't you say before that it was not our place to judge? Then how come you can suddenly decide on skittle/milk ring composition.

Stormwarz' point is valid though - burden of proof is on information, not disinformation.

we indeed only merely SUPPOSE there is no God, we don't know for sure - that is why the doctrine of the Atheist is just that: a question of BELIEF, a true scientist doesn't assert anything about what he doesn't know.

That's fine, and that's why I personally am agnostic and not an Atheist. But what we're saying is that the "You can't prove it isn't true either" counter-argument is invalid until reasonable proof has been put forward in favour.

Making a statement and demanding others disprove it instead of putting forward reliable support for it is negative reasoning, and is usually just an attempt to draw attention from the fact that you CAN'T prove it.

The rings of Saturn was a joke by the way, just to demonstrate the ludicrous extreme you can take negative reasoning to.

err it is not our place to judge other people


but still, come on, how can the rings of Saturn not be made of skittles?

Stormwarz' point is valid though - burden of proof is on information, not disinformation.
Again the fact is that there is such a thing as a trancendental. Religion have certainly taken advantage of it and constructed their myths and rituals for their own profit. But the basic concept of "God" is something else and is a de facto principle of our thought if in actuality nothing else.

Science doesn't assert the non-existence of God because "information" doesn't approach solving the issue. Science, even where it is theoretical, is basically agnostic in nature - it doesn't rule out something until established facts eliminate its possibility. I'm not vaguely religious myself, but I wouldn't credit myself with having the authority to assert the non-existence of God, that would be purely dogmatic.

Making a statement and demanding others disprove it instead of putting forward reliable support for it is negative reasoning, and is usually just an attempt to draw attention from the fact that you CAN'T prove it.I completely agree, and the churches of course have loved to exploit this, but staunch theists and atheists are of the same dogmatic ilk as far as I'm concerned.

Any more thoughts on Judas, anyone?

I'm inclined to believe that Judas wouldn't have gone to hell for commiting suicide. It's arguable as to whether suicide is a sin at all. It was only a long time after the Bible was written that it began to be considered so. Certainly there are examples in the bible of prophets and various people working for God commiting suicide (Samson for example). It could even be argued that Jesus commited suicide depending on what your definition of it is.

Suicide is a sin in much the same way contraception is; it's contorling life. Why this is sinful if you are meant to have free will is beyond me. The idea seems to be that you have the choice to choose not to choose, if that's not hideously over-complicated.

As to the argument of what trancends our knowledge, there are now far fewer things that do so than previously, and in EVERY case so far it's turned out God wasn't behind it after all.

Volcanoes turned out to be magma spurts from changes in pressure within the Earth's mantle, as oppossed to God. Weather is, once again, mainly pressure and heat- related. The Sun comes up because we're rotating as we orbit it (boy, let's not even start at how wrong we got that one, even WITHOUT the God bit). Evolution is pretty damned convincing compared to Creationism (if the Earth is 6000 years old, what the hell was God doing with that whole fossil record thing? Is it some comedy routine? "You know what? They're believing in Giant Lizards now! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH").

Every time we come to understand something, it always seem that God is in fact not doing it after all, despite what we've always been told.

It could even be argued that Jesus commited suicide depending on what your definition of it is.
Unless the "Dominus" sect is right of course and Jesus was conned into it! There is also the argument of whether suicide was the lesser sin compared to Judas' part in conspiracy against Christ, his betrayal of Christ, and, most of all, his blatant profiteering from the affair.

Jesus was of course denied by another disciple, though that at least was due to fear of death, but Judas was actually very callous in his betrayal of Jesus remember: the way he kissed Him to mark Him out for His executors would have worked well in a scene from The Godfather. The silver he recieved after the act was a big deal in early times: since love of money was seen as the greatest of sins back in the day.

Most of all, however, Judas was damned because his evil actions were both sustained and calculated, not acted out in the heat of the moment. He might have put things right at any time and indeed, Jesus seems to invite him to do so at the Last Supper. By the time Judas came to the field with his silver, he was already damned beyond redemption, so suicide was hardly a big deal at that point.

Unless you follow more modern theories, where Judas may well have been ORDERED to do it by Jesus. That would also hold up the 12 thrones theory, too. And make Judas the most unfortunate man in history.

This is something that I've always wondered 2! Im a pk (preechers kid) and I've asked my dad about it. He says that Judas is probably in hell bcuz he just went and killed himself, unlike peter...another disciple who denied that he new the Lord, who went and asked for forgiveness of his sin...but...I think he could be in heaven bcuz in a way...it was just the part he needed to play in this story! But im sure we'll all jst have to sit and wait. If hes in heven i'll send all u ppl that mite b in...the otha place...a postcard! ;) THANKU for expressin some awsum verses and I think thats really awsum that ur post is making a big difference! IM OUT! Angella

... Judas is probably in hell bcuz he just went and killed himself, unlike peter...another disciple who denied that he new the Lord, who went and asked for forgiveness of his sin...but...I think he could be in heaven bcuz in a way...it was just the part he needed to play in this story!

Wait, so are you saying if he'd asked Jesus' forgiveness for his impending suicide (which of course Jesus knew about), then it wouldn't be so sinful as to earn him a place in hell ? Or are you saying that because he served some purpose or other in the story then he got a free pass to heaven because it would be more convenient for the gospel-writers?

I was raised catholic, and I still don't understand the concept of sin. Sin, it seems to me, is entirely subjective (and complete bull). If Judas' suicide was predestined then how could it be a sin ? Or does that mean we are all condemned to sinning and hence will all end up in hell....unless we help move the story along?

Jeez, your post raised far more questions that it did answers.

Historically speaking, people had a more pragmatic view of suicide in those times. Under Roman Law, a man could prevent his crimes or transgressions affecting his family if he took his own life - it was seen as a noble act of attonement and honour rather than a sin (the Japanese still see it that way).

I'm not sure Christ or his followers, as historical figures, would have disproved of Judas killing himself - at least it showed remorse for what he had done. I'm not sure where the origins of "suicide as sin" in theology came from, probably one the Doctors of The Church came up with...

Judas is burned to hell NOT BECAUSE HE BETRAYED JESUS BUT BECAUSE:
HE COMMITED SUICIDE. THIS IS CONSIDERED AS MURDER I.E TAKING AWAY A LIFE GOD GAVE. JUDAS HANGED HIMSELF BECAUSE HE FELT GUILTY. WE CAN ASSUMED THAT HE REGRETTED HIS ACT.
NOW IF INSTEAD OF COMMITING SUICIDE, HE APOLOGISED TO GOD. THEN FOR SURE GOD WOULD HAVE FORGIVE HIS ACTS.

i dont know why he had to YELL it, but maronite is correct

judas was damned not because he betrayed jesus but because he committed suicide, a sin you cant repent of. all other sins are technically repentable because you can at any time realize the error of your ways and make it up with god.

of course there is no real reason to believe that sinners go to HELL at all. they can just not get into heaven eh? that whole hell thing is pretty much a greek concept not a jewish one. so judas can just be DEAD and not eligible to be ressurected on the last day.

and why do people keep referencing dante as if he were in the bible?

On the whole sinful suicide thing, it almost certainly came to be first as a means of keeping people alive and paying tithes for as long as possible. That's what most of the Catholic church ideas were based on.


Oh, and Ashmoria? Dante's fun. And he did set it up as an authority, and it was never claimed to be otherwise by the Church.

If Judas' suicide was predestined then how could it be a sin ?
That has been the argument of many Christian interpreters over centuries and often is used as a defense for terrible crimes. The Dominus sect used this as their justification for acting above the law, because ultimately the evil that men do, rather than being their free will, is ultimately God's responsibility, part of His Grand Design.

Robert Mitchum in The Night Of The Hunter is quite a good example of this kind of thinking - the idea that we are not responsible for our actions and that the immediate blame goes directly to God. In that sense, Judas was damned from the beginning because he was merely God's predestined puppet, in other words it was actually God who betrayed Jesus.

Yeah, LH, I'm aware there's loads of holes in the theology which is why there are so many spin-off cults and persuasions - I'm only reporting, not preaching.

I refer Ashmoria to post #54. Judas' betrayal was irreversible because Christ had already been arrested...

Anyone know the Old Testament/Jewish stance on suicide?

Pretty much the same as the catholic one, but without a formalised idea of Hell. There's a limbo state where you wait. Unless you're not born Jewish, obviously. Then you're just damned to begin with, and not really human.

Most religious doctrines are like that.

I refer Ashmoria to post #54. Judas' betrayal was irreversible because Christ had already been arrested...

yes his betrayal couldnt be reversed but it COULD be repented. not unlike murder, you cant change it but you can repent and be saved. judas could have repented his betrayal and have been saved but he couldnt repent of suicide because...well...he was dead.

ive always thought that predestination thing was just peoples' way of avoiding responsibilty for their own sins. if it was predestined, then i had no CHOICE and how can i be held accountable for it?

It's hard to say on that. Repentance is pretty dodgy, since it's a sort of 'Get out of Jail free' card. Remember Rasputin, anyone? The bigger the repentance, the bigger the reward?

If you can get out of anything by saying 'sorry', then what kind of God is that?

It's hard to say on that. Repentance is pretty dodgy, since it's a sort of 'Get out of Jail free' card. Remember Rasputin, anyone? The bigger the repentance, the bigger the reward?

If you can get out of anything by saying 'sorry', then what kind of God is that?

i think there is a parable to cover that

isnt it the one where the guy needs workers for his harvest. he hires some at dawn, some at 9, some at noon, some at 3 and some just before sunset. he pays them all the same wage. when people protest they are told to STFU its his field, his wage and he pays as he sees fit.

so god doesnt care WHEN you repent, just THAT you repent.

it does have to be sincere in any case.

judas was damned not because he betrayed jesus but because he committed suicide, a sin you cant repent of.


Why not? I'm sure that when he's standing infront of St. Peter he'll have a chance.

I think I agree with Kaboodlez (incidently I'm a pk too) - Judas had to betray Jesus, because otherwise he wouldn't have been killed, and thus couldn't have been ressurected etc.

Why not? I'm sure that when he's standing infront of St. Peter he'll have a chance.

I think I agree with Kaboodlez (incidently I'm a pk too) - Judas had to betray Jesus, because otherwise he wouldn't have been killed, and thus couldn't have been ressurected etc.
You can only repent while alive. In death there is no repentance. Which is why Suicide is a stupid thing because you can't repent of killing yourself while alive.

Why not? I'm sure that when he's standing infront of St. Peter he'll have a chance.

I think I agree with Kaboodlez (incidently I'm a pk too) - Judas had to betray Jesus, because otherwise he wouldn't have been killed, and thus couldn't have been ressurected etc.

pfffft
if judas hadn't betrayed jesus the pharisees would have found another way to get him. it didnt require judas' kiss to get him. all that was required was for jesus to get enough fame as messiah so that he "needed" eliminating and his aquiesence to the charges.

The repentance thing has always bugged me. That's why it wasn't in most other religions. Jews don't repent, they spend an eon in limbo for each sin they commit (If I remember rightly). Repentance was more or less invented as a great way to market afterlife insurance.

Did Judas believe in more than an "even the demons believe and tremble" sort of way? Where does the Bible say so?

Did Judas repent? or more specifically where did he ask for forgiveness? Where are the fruits of a repentant/forgiven individual? (See Peter for an example)

What did Jesus say about the person that betrayed Him? Something about it being better for Him if he had never been born or something along those lines if I recall correctly.

Why would they elect a replacement for Judas, if he was to fill an eternal role? They didn't elect any replacements when the other disciples died....

As for the "Devil made me do it" defense, who else in scripture used that as a defense to justify sinful behavior and had it accepted by God?

The repentance thing has always bugged me... Repentance was more or less invented as a great way to market afterlife insurance.

And that came about in the late middle ages in the form of Indulgences. You'd basically pay [pay money to the church] for your sins.

And that came about in the late middle ages in the form of Indulgences. You'd basically pay [pay money to the church] for your sins.

Not just that. Indulgences were a furthering of the scheme. In this case, it encourages people to become Christian because you can always go to heaven if you're sorry, and of course all good christians make donations to the church because that's what people have always done for faiths. It's not exactly horribly corrupt, like indulgences are, but it is a nice easy way to get new recruits.

Join us, say your sorry, and you'll get everlasting happines in the kingdom of heaven. But which you're still here, the roof's been awful leaky, so if you've spare change...?

I think heaven, because I don't believe in hell

Did Judas believe in more than an "even the demons believe and tremble" sort of way? Where does the Bible say so?

Did Judas repent? or more specifically where did he ask for forgiveness? Where are the fruits of a repentant/forgiven individual? (See Peter for an example)

What did Jesus say about the person that betrayed Him? Something about it being better for Him if he had never been born or something along those lines if I recall correctly.

Why would they elect a replacement for Judas, if he was to fill an eternal role? They didn't elect any replacements when the other disciples died....

As for the "Devil made me do it" defense, who else in scripture used that as a defense to justify sinful behavior and had it accepted by God?


The replacement wasn't done by Christ, they did it after wards so that they could spread to word of Christ faster. Just because humans make replacements doesn't mean Christ has to.

Think of this, if a man is completely under the belief that he just killed G-d, do you think he is just going to be like, G-d save me please, I'll go preach your word. Umm, no don't think so. He is going to be like, I just killed the son of G-d, no man will ever listen to me again, and I've betrayed a friend. He renounced his actions, threw the blood money at those that had paid him, this being a great insult since they weren't allowed to touch blood money. He said he was wrong, said he killed an innocent person. There wasn't any priests to go ask forgiveness from, no Hail Marys to perform.

Again, the Devil made me do it is a bit different in this case. It was only after the kiss that Jesus said be gone, and the Devil left Judas. Its very clear when it says that the Devil enters him, they describe it in the same way they describe demonic possion.

Another thing I would like to say is, if it is a sin to kill yourself, where in the bible does it say so. If it is a sin to choose when your body dies, is not Jesus guilty too, "it is done" and he released his spirit from the body?

The laws were there, and Christs messages were there, where does it say suicide is a mortal sin? I do believe Christ said that all thoughs that believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life. I do think Judas believe, thats why he repented. He said he was wrong to the highest religous order of his people.

Christ said, we all die with sin on our hearts, but through Christ we are not judged for those sins.