NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok. For my theory to work we must assume that the universe is infinite. We already know this because universe means 1 ultimate thing. If the universe was not infinite then you could leave the universe but you cannot leave the universe because once you leave it you are nowhere. Therefore the universe is infinite. Now if lets try to find out the average amount of life forms in the universe. This would be a big number divided by infinity. According to the laws of science and mathematics, anything divided by infinity is zero. Therefore there of zero life forms in this universe and so we do not exist.


But……………………..

Let us say (hypothetically) that there are living beings in the universe. There could only be one such thing. If you try to find out the average space that one being takes up you would have to divide infinity by a large number. Because (according to the laws of science and mathematics) infinity divided by anything is infinity. This would mean that each being would take up an infinite space. The only infinite space is the universe. Therefore each being takes up a universe. But there is only one universe meaning that there can only be one living being.


So this leaves us with 2 answers to life. Either there is no such thing as life or there is only one life form. The second answer leads us to another question, who is this life form?
It doesn’t really matter because we don’t exist. So you and I are not alive unless one of us is that one being.

Ok. For my theory to work we must assume that the universe is infinite. We already know this because universe means 1 ultimate thing. If the universe was not infinite then you could leave the universe but you cannot leave the universe because once you leave it you are nowhere. Therefore the universe is infinite.

Not if the universe wraps back on itself. In 2 dimensions, think of the circumference of a circle. You can walk this line forever and never leave it - but it is not infinite in length. In 3 dimensions think of the surface of a sphere. This can be continued to higher dimensions, though it's a bit harder to imagine ;-)

Not if the universe wraps back on itself. In 2 dimensions, think of the circumference of a circle. You can walk this line forever and never leave it - but it is not infinite in length. In 3 dimensions think of the surface of a sphere. This can be continued to higher dimensions, though it's a bit harder to imagine ;-)

Assuming you are always walking along the surface, and not from the center of the sphere along the radius to the edge, and beyond. You would reach the end.

Infinity divided by infinity isn't infinity, therefore your whole argument falls apart. In fact since infinity isn't a real number you can't even divide it you can only take limits, clearly you've never had a real math class.

Assuming you are always walking along the surface, and not from the center of the sphere along the radius to the edge, and beyond. You would reach the end.

True. Let me rephrase and expand this.
Assume the universe is 2-dimensional and exists entirely on the surface of a slowly expanding 3-dimensional sphere. You could travel in what you would perceive as a straight line forever along this surface, without ever reaching an end. Going down, to the center of the sphere, would in this case be the equivalent of going back in time (to where the surface one day was), going up travelling to the future (to the place where the surface will someday be). This model allows for expansion of a finite universe, and also encompasses the arrow of time quite nicely ;-)

But there is not an infinite amount of objects in the universe. Therefore it would be infinity divided by some large number. Because you cannot name infinity, it would be changed to nullset (which is strangly it's exact opposite). Null divided by any number is null. Because we are talking about population, Null means there is none (even though it actually means no such thing). Meaning there is no one in the universe.


Also, we are not on the surface (inner or outer) of the universe, we are inside it. Even if the universe is a sphere you still could not get outside of it. If you cannot get outside of something because once you leave it you are in nothingness then that means nothing is out side of the universe. This means that the universe is infinite.

But there is not an infinite amount of objects in the universe.
Now if lets try to find out the average amount of life forms in the universe. This would be a big number divided by infinity.

You just contradicted yourself.

True. Let me rephrase and expand this...
Thanks, maybe its about time I read Steven Hawkins A Brief History of the Universe again... :)

Thanks, maybe its about time I read Steven Hawkins A Brief History of the Universe again... :)

Or any other 'popular' book on the universe. Together with the 'current bun' it's one of the most popular ways to give people a basic idea on theories like curved and expanding universes without lots of complex mathematics ;)

"Flatland" (http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/) might interest you too :)

You just contradicted yourself.



No I did not. I said that there are a lot of objects in the universe, not an infinite amount. I said that the universe is infinite. You think I said something else.

I said that there are a lot of objects in the universe, not an infinite amount. I said that the universe is infinite.
If the universe is infinite, then there are an infinite number of objects, and an infinite quantity of matter.

But there is not. if even one atom of space is empty then it is not infinite. We know that there are many areas in space where there are no atoms. This means that there is an extremely large amount of objects in the universe, but not infinite.

But there is not. if even one atom of space is empty then it is not infinite. We know that there are many areas in space where there are no atoms. This means that there is an extremely large amount of objects in the universe, but not infinite.
Wrong. Infinity-1 is still infinity. (Or, more properly, Aleph-null - 1 = Aleph-null)

what the fuck is this shit?
your theory sucks a chode
the universe is finite, and that's all that there is to it

also "the elegant universe" which explains string theory, but also goes into quantum mechanics, general relativity, extra dimensions, etc.

It's nicely written, well thought out, and I mean that, in all seriousness. It looks like you put alot of work into this.

Bah, the answer is 42

It's nicely written, well thought out, and I mean that, in all seriousness. It looks like you put alot of work into this.


.........But it doesn't mention MC Hammer anywhere, so I don't like it.

Bah, the answer is 42
Agreed.

what the fuck is this shit?
your theory sucks a chode
the universe is finite, and that's all that there is to it

The definition of universe is 'everything in existance'. It is infinite by definition

But there is not. if even one atom of space is empty then it is not infinite. We know that there are many areas in space where there are no atoms. This means that there is an extremely large amount of objects in the universe, but not infinite.
No, if there is space without atoms, then there is still an unlimited amount of matter in universe if the universe itself is infinite. Until you start getting into dimensional theory.

"Flatland" (http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/flatland/) might interest you too :)
Goddamnit, I really need to finish reading that. I got about a sixth of the way through, had to stop, and haven't gotten back to it yet...

The definition of universe is 'everything in existance'. It is infinite by definition
But accordind to astronomical observations, the universe is expanding. How the hell can something that is infinite expand? The big bang theory is completely negated in an infinite universe.

The definition of universe is 'everything in existance'. It is infinite by definition
Except it isn't. It's between 20 and 40 billion light years across. We think that it's everything there is because we can't move fast enough to go beyond the boundary.

But accordind to astronomical observations, the universe is expanding. How the hell can something that is infinite expand? The big bang theory is completely negated in an infinite universe.

Hello again. Yes, thats a good point. Perhaps expansion is an illusion. Or, maybe infinity is expnding. Hmm... Maybe everything in existance is not infinite, thus infinity is merely theoretical.

Except it isn't. It's between 20 and 40 billion light years across. We think that it's everything there is because we can't move fast enough to go beyond the boundary.

How can we go beyond 'everything that exists everywhere'. What we understand as the 'universe' may be expanding and have a boundary, however, it must therefore be expanding into something. This is a plain contradiction of the term 'universe'. Outside what we know must be more 'universe'.

How can we go beyond 'everything that exists everywhere'. What we understand as the 'universe' may be expanding and have a boundary, however, it must therefore be expanding into something. This is a plain contradiction of the term 'universe'. Outside what we know must be more 'universe'.
So cosmologists redefined "universe". Got a problem with that?

So cosmologists redefined "universe". Got a problem with that?

Yes. Why could they not have used 'cosmos' which seems to have basically the same definition as 'universe' at the moment. No one knows what the hell anyone is talking about anymore. :headbang:

How can we go beyond 'everything that exists everywhere'. What we understand as the 'universe' may be expanding and have a boundary, however, it must therefore be expanding into something. This is a plain contradiction of the term 'universe'. Outside what we know must be more 'universe'.
There is no evidence against a multiverse that I'm aware of. And when you get into dimensions, it gets even more confusing. This is not a topic for unlearned laymen. I am a layman myself, and am not trying to assert any absolutes because I know I don't know nearly as much as physicists. But I have read quite a bit, and know enough to make rudimentary statements. No offence intended, but you don't seem to be quite high enough to argue this.

Oh God make the pseudoscience stop! :headbang:

Ok. For my theory to work we must assume that the universe is infinite. We already know this because universe means 1 ultimate thing. If the universe was not infinite then you could leave the universe but you cannot leave the universe because once you leave it you are nowhere. Therefore the universe is infinite. Now if lets try to find out the average amount of life forms in the universe. This would be a big number divided by infinity. According to the laws of science and mathematics, anything divided by infinity is zero. Therefore there of zero life forms in this universe and so we do not exist.


But……………………..

Let us say (hypothetically) that there are living beings in the universe. There could only be one such thing. If you try to find out the average space that one being takes up you would have to divide infinity by a large number. Because (according to the laws of science and mathematics) infinity divided by anything is infinity. This would mean that each being would take up an infinite space. The only infinite space is the universe. Therefore each being takes up a universe. But there is only one universe meaning that there can only be one living being.


So this leaves us with 2 answers to life. Either there is no such thing as life or there is only one life form. The second answer leads us to another question, who is this life form?
It doesn’t really matter because we don’t exist. So you and I are not alive unless one of us is that one being.


You have ALOT of free time.

There is no evidence against a multiverse that I'm aware of. And when you get into dimensions, it gets even more confusing. This is not a topic for unlearned laymen. I am a layman myself, and am not trying to assert any absolutes because I know I don't know nearly as much as physicists. But I have read quite a bit, and know enough to make rudimentary statements. No offence intended, but you don't seem to be quite high enough to argue this.

No offense taken. I'm arguing english usage/deterioration more than physics. Philosophising if you will. There can be only one 'universe' and it incorperates all things. If other dimentions exist, then they are part of the one 'universe'. However, for aguments' sake, I'll assume 'universe' refers to the 40 billion light-year across, expanding thing in which our galaxy in this dimention exists. I suppose the word 'world' can, in the right circumstances, be taken to mean 'everything in existance'. Although, it is used less in this sense due to the discovery of the galaxy, universe, etc. Perhaps the same will happen to 'universe'.

Ok. For my theory to work we must assume that the universe is infinite. We already know this because universe means 1 ultimate thing. If the universe was not infinite then you could leave the universe but you cannot leave the universe because once you leave it you are nowhere. Therefore the universe is infinite. Now if lets try to find out the average amount of life forms in the universe. This would be a big number divided by infinity. According to the laws of science and mathematics, anything divided by infinity is zero. Therefore there of zero life forms in this universe and so we do not exist.


But……………………..

Let us say (hypothetically) that there are living beings in the universe. There could only be one such thing. If you try to find out the average space that one being takes up you would have to divide infinity by a large number. Because (according to the laws of science and mathematics) infinity divided by anything is infinity. This would mean that each being would take up an infinite space. The only infinite space is the universe. Therefore each being takes up a universe. But there is only one universe meaning that there can only be one living being.


So this leaves us with 2 answers to life. Either there is no such thing as life or there is only one life form. The second answer leads us to another question, who is this life form?
It doesn’t really matter because we don’t exist. So you and I are not alive unless one of us is that one being.

Your mathematical conclusions are rediculously flawed...

You cannot leave the universe period, because you are a part of it. The universe by definition is everything, including you. Thus there is no conclusion, as you assert, that the universe must be infinite.

The average number of lifeforms at every point in the universe is a number approaching zero. This does NOT lead to the conclusion that there are no lifeforms in the universe. In fact, if the universe is infinite, there are an infinite number of lifeforms in it. Infinity divided by infinity is one. However, x*infinity divided by y*infinity is x/y . Thus the density of lifeforms in the universe is simply whatever it is: x/y .

You give no justification for your conclusion that there can only be one living being in the universe. Then you state that the average space that such a being would take up is infinity divided by a large number. In fact, if there is one such being and an infinite amount of space, it would be infinity divided by one. One is certainly not a large number, and still there is no logic behind your conclusion that there is only one such being.

Nice try... well... no. Pretty shoddy actually. :p

Quantum Foam. :D

Quantum Foam. :D
__________________
Comfort the Disturbed. Disturb the Comfortable.

When you have Disturbed the Comfortable, do you then Comfort them? :)

Come to think of it, saying the universe is infinite is a bit like saying there is a God. Any amount of space can be divided infinately. However, that does not make the space itself infinite. It is both correct and incorrect.

When you have Disturbed the Comfortable, do you then Comfort them? :)

That would make for a vicious circle, and I'd never complete my mission. I stamp the hands of those I have either comforted or disturbed. So I know I've been there. :)

Come to think of it, saying the universe is infinite is a bit like saying there is a God. Any amount of space can be divided infinately. However, that does not make the space itself infinite. It is both correct and incorrect.

Hang on, I can expand this further and say that if the universe is in fact expanding, then it is, by defininition, neither 'infinite', nor 'the universe'.

Hang on, I can expand this further and say that if the universe is in fact expanding, then it is, by defininition, neither 'infinite', nor 'the universe'.

It's also not a doughnut. But I bet it looks like one from a certain angle. :)

Ok. For my theory to work we must assume that the universe is infinite. We already ......( big snip of stuff).....we don’t exist. So you and I are not alive unless one of us is that one being.

Dude, what have you been smoking?

If your arguement starts with "the universe is infinite" then there is, of course, an infinite number of lifeforms. Along with an infinite number of atoms and everythng else.

You could have a billion light years between individual atoms and you would still have an infinite number of atoms

If your talking of the visible universe, 20 odd billion lightyears across, then your not talking of anything even near an infinite strech of space are you?

Cant recall where I read it but here is something to think about the next time your mind wanders toward the halls of infinity

Given Infinite space and Infinite time not only is everything possible, everything is Mandatory. Given these as preset conditions it is inevetable that one day a black hole will spit out a functioning television showing every single episode of "I Love Lucy" back to back with no comercials.

Now if that thought didnt scare you straight, keep smoking that stuff! Its too late for your brain :D