NationStates Jolt Archive

I wonder why it is that people think this?

I, about a year ago, started 'recovering', or so to speak, from the repression and self-censorship I'd had as a young child. I realized I wanted to be female. Three days ago, I recieved a positive diagnosis of gender identity disorder. It's a good thing the realization happened now rather than at a point in the future when it could be more of a blow...

So, what I'm wondering is what is it about us that is frightening or 'wrong'?
What is it that is threatening about us?

I personally don't care about it. It's your life and if that makes you happy then go for it, it's no one else's buisness!

I find it scary that its possible to have a gender changed.

It's a long and danerous process, I've heard.

I don't think we're scary .. I usually get told I'm far too docile.. and I'm an Ftm by the way

I think that, really, it stems from a sort of homophobia.

People in general are fine accepting gay people, they do (for the most part) after all remain the same sex.

With trans-gender (ists-people? sorry I've never used the term before) I beleive it becomes a matter of, okay so this person is the opposite now?

I mean, it might sound pretty hypocritical, my best friend is gay, but I'd kinda be freaked out if he went trans-gender. It's just SO opposite to the way the average person lives their life. Additionally, add in the idea that you might meet someone date em, get to know em really well and then maybe even sleep with them, and THEN to find out that they were originally the same sex as you. I mean it might sound crass, but thats a real gender bender on the mind to a straight guy.

So I guess ultimately, it just comes down to having boundaries.

Well, I happen to have two conflicting opinions, and I'm trying to decide which I believe in more.

1) Well, transgenderness isn't really a thing I'd go for, but if it floats your (or someone else's) boat, that's absolutely cool with me. It's not my life, it's not my choice and it won't affect me. However, it may make you feel more confidant/self assured. If that's the case, go ahead!

2) But, it's kinda scary, no? I mean, what about the guy with a five o'clock shadow and WAY too much makeup with a voice like James Earl Jones that wears a flower patterned dress and all, who hangs out in my therapist's (I have ADD and all) office? He gives me the creeping horrors. But that might be because he says strange things, too. Like: "Hey, kid. Want to play?"

Of course, not all transgender people are like that. I know, but he's the only one I know. So, I think it has something to do with who you know of the transgender persuasion. So, I still have some thinking to do in this regard.

2) But, it's kinda scary, no? I mean, what about the guy with a five o'clock shadow and WAY too much makeup with a voice like James Earl Jones that wears a flower patterned dress and all, who hangs out in my therapist's (I have ADD and all) office? He gives me the creeping horrors. But that might be because he says strange things, too. Like: "Hey, kid. Want to play?"

That's rather disturbing... :eek:

Yeah, it's fairly hard on the eyes for me to see people like that too. Of course, I'm going to be one of them soon, but the other way around... I always dress as my physical sex because I don't want anybody to freak out, and I'd rather look a bit more feminine before attempting to pass. Of course, it's going to end up looking like I'm a butch once it reaches the point where I look noticably female... Wonderful. Grr, I wish transition wasn't so slooooooooowwwwwww.

That's rather disturbing... :eek:

Yeah, it's fairly hard on the eyes for me to see people like that too. Of course, I'm going to be one of them soon, but the other way around... I always dress as my physical sex because I don't want anybody to freak out, and I'd rather look a bit more feminine before attempting to pass. Of course, it's going to end up looking like I'm a butch once it reaches the point where I look noticably female... Wonderful. Grr, I wish transition wasn't so slooooooooowwwwwww.


I don't know if it'll comfort you Neo-Anarchists, but from the few trans-gender people I have seen, some of them have actually been rather attractive. Again, as I say, disturbing because of crossed boundaries - it just makes people question themselves and their instincts in a way they aren't comftarble with.

It will be a slow process, but at the end of the day, so long as you can be who you are happy with, all the best to you. I wish you the best of luck.

Just to qualify that attractive statement, I remember being on the subway in London when I was about 13 years old. Anyway, we were on the train going to somewhere and we pulled in at Black Friars station and there'd been a gay rights protest around there at that point in time. So they all borded the train, naturally I was a little uncomftarble, gay people were a relatively new concept to me at that age. However, I remember sitting there and there was this absolutely gorgeous girl, I still remember what she looked like, long brown hair a kinda peaked nose, wearing a green vest, t-shirt and combats and well, she was really pretty. I didn't even realise that it was a transgendred person till my mother pointed out a few things.

So, anyway, all the best to you:)

I agree that it depends on your own experiences.. In india the unacs are men who wear saris (indian dress worn by many elder women) and they will ask for money and if you give one money a whole mob will emerge.. or they will tap on your window(this is only in mumbaii btw) and well thats a bit scary.. but in the western world.. if thats what you feel you must do.. carry on soldier and do what must be done.. i dont find it scary..

A kid I knew once had a cousin who got a sex change.
It was rather disturbing, since the kid was quite broad shouldered, with large legs.
Some people just arent meant to be female ^_^

This forum has the widest varity of people ever.

I just wanted to say that.

I don't know if it'll comfort you Neo-Anarchists, but from the few trans-gender people I have seen, some of them have actually been rather attractive. Again, as I say, disturbing because of crossed boundaries - it just makes people question themselves and their instincts in a way they aren't comftarble with.

Yeah. I find it funny, and sort of a bit sad, that although so many people seem to be so strongly convinced of the moral wrongness of transsexuality, they can't even tell them apart from everybody else. Err, that sentence is a bit out of place, but it seems to want to stay there, and if I poke it it might bite me.

Anyway, back to topic. There's a woman I know who is an absolute knockout. She's not in the 'in-crowd', so not everybody likes her, but a lot of guys are a bit sweet on her. One of these guys so happens to be a trans-hater, who says he could spot any one of them. Funny thing is, he obviously can't, and neither can anybody else, judging by the fact that this woman was up until one year ago a guy. (I also know the trans-hater can't tell at all since he's accused me more than once of being a FTM trans, which I take as a compliment :p ) The only reason I know is that she's a personal friend of mine, and I was rather startled when she told me, because I never suspected a thing.

One of the funniest bits is she hasn't even had SRS or anything yet, and yet nobody's noticed. I bet that would be a big surprise if any of them actually managed to date her...

Just to qualify that attractive statement, I remember being on the subway in London when I was about 13 years old. Anyway, we were on the train going to somewhere and we pulled in at Black Friars station and there'd been a gay rights protest around there at that point in time. So they all borded the train, naturally I was a little uncomftarble, gay people were a relatively new concept to me at that age. However, I remember sitting there and there was this absolutely gorgeous girl, I still remember what she looked like, long brown hair a kinda peaked nose, wearing a green vest, t-shirt and combats and well, she was really pretty. I didn't even realise that it was a transgendred person till my mother pointed out a few things.

So, anyway, all the best to you:)

And all the best to you too.

Some people are scared because it's radically different from the norm.

I'm not though. It's better to change sex than to be someone you're not.

That's rather disturbing... :eek:

Yeah, it's fairly hard on the eyes for me to see people like that too. Of course, I'm going to be one of them soon, but the other way around... I always dress as my physical sex because I don't want anybody to freak out, and I'd rather look a bit more feminine before attempting to pass. Of course, it's going to end up looking like I'm a butch once it reaches the point where I look noticably female... Wonderful. Grr, I wish transition wasn't so slooooooooowwwwwww.

Yeah. It's really scary when those are pretty much the only TG people you've encountered. I think that's one of the major reason that I spent so long fighting it. I didn't want to be seen as a freak by the entire world. So much that it eventually took a failed suicide attempt to get me into therapy.

Eventually I was able transition, I'm now in a relationship with someone that I love a great deal (didn't guess about my past until I talked about it). I really hope it goes well for you. It's a slow process, but if you're anything like me, the shift from being depressed to actually being able to enjoy life is worth every bit of pain and stress.

I think it's fine and it's no-ones business.

However, I admit i've been scared by transgender people. Gay parade at uni, you see, and two of them came up and put their arms around me, the innocent passer by. I think I was understandably uncomfortable though. (And if they got the impression I was a bit homophobic, they were oblivious to the fact my best friend is bisexual. :p)

Yeah. It's really scary when those are pretty much the only TG people you've encountered.

But then, if they don't cross-dress publicly, how would you know whether or not you have met one?

Okay, here I go. First of all I pride myself on being tolerant. Religious, sexual preferences, pretty much whatever. However, transexuals kind of weird me out. There are two reasons.

1. I am slightly worried that I will meet a mtf, not know the diffrence start a relationship, etc. This is kind of a minor problem tho.

2. The other (main) one is why? I have no feelings at all in that direction so I don't know why. I irritates the hell out of me. Is it a disorder, or is it just curiosity, or some damn reason I can''t even get my mind around?

So this is one of my failings, (intolerance wise) but I would really like ot find out why and maybe get rid of my anti-trans behavior (I have found understanding helps me figure things out and find what I REALLY think about something)

But then, if they don't cross-dress publicly, how would you know whether or not you have met one?

I don't mean those that are out, I mean when the only ones that you've met are very masculine, and have a tendency to play with gender identities. When that's not how you see yourself, it makes you wonder if it's possible to just blend in and have the sort of life that I wanted to have.

Everyone wants different things out of life, and my experience for the first part of my life made me wonder if I could live the life that I wanted if I transitioned.

Neo-Anarchists, I wish you the best of luck in all the changes you are going through. It's far better to be happy with who and what you are than to try and live to the rest of the world preconceptions.

My personal opinion? Morally wrong - hell NO! But humans to tend to fear what they don't understand...and most people can't understand their own gender issues much less anothers.

I agree that it depends on your own experiences.. In india the unacs are men who wear saris (indian dress worn by many elder women) and they will ask for money and if you give one money a whole mob will emerge
Do you mean eununchs?

1. I am slightly worried that I will meet a mtf, not know the diffrence start a relationship, etc. This is kind of a minor problem tho.


This is always a touchy situation. As someone who's transitioned, this is somethings that personally I've always been scared of doing from my point of view. Many men have opinions such as yours, and talking about the past might ensure that they'll not take the time to get to know you. Waiting too long brings in honesty issues. Then there's the chance that there will be a very bad (violent) reaction.


2. The other (main) one is why? I have no feelings at all in that direction so I don't know why. I irritates the hell out of me. Is it a disorder, or is it just curiosity, or some damn reason I can''t even get my mind around?


It's really hard to explain. As long as I can remember, I knew something was different. That for some reason, I wasn't supposed to be a boy. It turns out that I'm intersexed, which is different than most TS's, but I tried hard to be the boy that my parents wanted me to be.

At 11 I started developing breasts, and I took all the treatments that they gave me to stop it from happening. When I didn't have a normal male puberty, I got more hormones.

I tried hard, and I was miserable. Eventually I couldn't take living the life that I thought everyone wanted me to, and tried to kill myself. That event got me into therapy. I accepted that even if the world saw me as a freak, it was better for me to at least try being myself. If it didn't work, well, death is death.

People in general are scary. I try not to associate myself with them.

I'll tell you exactly why people find transgendered people scary... because it's not a societal norm.

Society is divided into two gender categories, male and female, boy and girl... we have no other acceptance definitions for the transgendered. Our language alone creates the norm and automatically demonizes the "abnormal".

For example; In the first nations there is a third Gender. That third gender is regarded as the Nadle because it is a person born with ambiguous primary sex organs. This is not considered abnormal to these people because it's given a category of it's own.

Or the Hijras in India; these are biological men who behave and act like women and wear female apparl, they identify themselves with the Mother Goddess.

This is always a touchy situation. As someone who's transitioned, this is somethings that personally I've always been scared of doing from my point of view. Many men have opinions such as yours, and talking about the past might ensure that they'll not take the time to get to know you. Waiting too long brings in honesty issues. Then there's the chance that there will be a very bad (violent) reaction.



It's really hard to explain. As long as I can remember, I knew something was different. That for some reason, I wasn't supposed to be a boy. It turns out that I'm intersexed, which is different than most TS's, but I tried hard to be the boy that my parents wanted me to be.

At 11 I started developing breasts, and I took all the treatments that they gave me to stop it from happening. When I didn't have a normal male puberty, I got more hormones.

I tried hard, and I was miserable. Eventually I couldn't take living the life that I thought everyone wanted me to, and tried to kill myself. That event got me into therapy. I accepted that even if the world saw me as a freak, it was better for me to at least try being myself. If it didn't work, well, death is death.

Thank you. I am gonna have a helluva time getting my head wrapped around this one, but at least now I have a better off starting point. Good luck to you, and sorry if I came off as a bit of a bigot.

i think that the reason that (some) people are so frightened of transsexuals is that they can't wrap their heads around the ideas that:

1 - "gender" and "sex" are different
2 - gender especially exists more in our heads than it does between our legs (at the risk of being crass)


and of course there is the general (lack of understanding based) fear that if a straight person were to date a transsexual that would make them gay. which is obviously absurd because a transsexual IS the sex that they feel they are, not the one they were given at birth.

anyway, i'm sorry people are afraid. you don't scare me, just so you know.

and it's really too bad that people in general

People have always had a difficult time establishing my gender. A long, long time ago, I would protest at being misidentified - but I got over that a long time ago. It's simply not my problem. It's up to others to figure it out.

DT.

What you do with your body should be entirely up to you. Personally I would never become a woman, or hold a relationship with someone who was undergoing such a transition, but it is nobody's business but your own what you do.

By the way, I have a couple of questions about the whole gender change idea. If you become a member of the opposite sex via surgery, do you still get a set of fully working genitals? I mean, can you still derive the same pleasure even if you have a prosthetic "package"? This is a serious question, I'm intrigued as to whether or not the surgical procedures involved actually result in something "just as good" as the real thing.

Neo-Anarchists, I wish you the best of luck in all the changes you are going through. It's far better to be happy with who and what you are than to try and live to the rest of the world preconceptions.

My personal opinion? Morally wrong - hell NO! But humans to tend to fear what they don't understand...and most people can't understand their own gender issues much less anothers.


Way to go there Tanara, I couldn't have put it better myself.

I'll tell you exactly why people find transgendered people scary... because it's not a societal norm.

Society is divided into two gender categories, male and female, boy and girl... we have no other acceptance definitions for the transgendered. Our language alone creates the norm and automatically demonizes the "abnormal".

i think that the reason that (some) people are so frightened of transsexuals is that they can't wrap their heads around the ideas that:

1 - "gender" and "sex" are different
2 - gender especially exists more in our heads than it does between our legs (at the risk of being crass)


and of course there is the general (lack of understanding based) fear that if a straight person were to date a transsexual that would make them gay. which is obviously absurd because a transsexual IS the sex that they feel they are, not the one they were given at birth.

anyway, i'm sorry people are afraid. you don't scare me, just so you know.

and it's really too bad that people in general

What you do with your body should be entirely up to you. Personally I would never become a woman, or hold a relationship with someone who was undergoing such a transition, but it is nobody's business but your own what you do.

Way to go all of you on your understanding of this problem.. and BTW no, I am not Transgendered, but neither am I afraid of them or any opther social group that differs from the bigoted yet accepted definition of normal (Except Polititions of course.. They scare the hell out of me :D )

Now if only people would start to think this way on the whole Abortion thing the world could get back to discussing serious problems like World Hunger and Poverty, War and other such inconsequential things.

No, I am not trying to belittle this thread or it purpose or transgender rights or anything else. Just pointing out that if people would just stop harrassimg those who are different, we would all be a lot happier (I know I would)

I personally have no problem with transsexuals. I'm not sure if I would be willing to have a relationship with one, though I'll only know for sure if I am ever in that situation. I suspect that it might put me off if I find out before I'm attracted, but if I'm already interested or ina relationship with one, that it wouldn't matter all that much to me. Though there would be that whole problem with copulation and all...I'm not really into anal sex...

1 - "gender" and "sex" are different
2 - gender especially exists more in our heads than it does between our legs (at the risk of being crass)
This is true. Gender, strictly speaking, is a grammatical quality of words. A lexical concept in other words. Sex is a biological trait.

i think that the reason that (some) people are so frightened of transsexuals is that they can't wrap their heads around the ideas that:

1 - "gender" and "sex" are different
2 - gender especially exists more in our heads than it does between our legs (at the risk of being crass)


and of course there is the general (lack of understanding based) fear that if a straight person were to date a transsexual that would make them gay. which is obviously absurd because a transsexual IS the sex that they feel they are, not the one they were given at birth.

Thank you. In Sociology, we learn that there are two sexes, but an infinate amount of points between the two "gender" extremes. It's always easier for girls to genderbend than guys (girls can wear suits, but guys cannot wear dresses.... I mean, sure, meterosexual males are more accepted now a days, but not as much as one would think). Technically, girls can cross-dress all they want and not get looked at twice for it. I'm more androygenous, I guess (which is easy being female).

Remember: Transgender is an umbrealla term that covers anyone that in some way breaks or challenges traditional gender roles.

Here is something to check out: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/glossary.html

The only term they missed is "two-spirited." When someone is two-spirited, they feel as if they have both a male and a female living in the same body and somedays one come out, while other days, the other emerges.

Obviously, none of this stuff bothers me. :)

I wonder why it is that people think this?

I, about a year ago, started 'recovering', or so to speak, from the repression and self-censorship I'd had as a young child. I realized I wanted to be female. Three days ago, I recieved a positive diagnosis of gender identity disorder. It's a good thing the realization happened now rather than at a point in the future when it could be more of a blow...

So, what I'm wondering is what is it about us that is frightening or 'wrong'?
What is it that is threatening about us?
I'd recommend a second opinion, in case the doctor has a hidden agenda.

What you do with your body should be entirely up to you. Personally I would never become a woman, or hold a relationship with someone who was undergoing such a transition, but it is nobody's business but your own what you do.

By the way, I have a couple of questions about the whole gender change idea. If you become a member of the opposite sex via surgery, do you still get a set of fully working genitals? I mean, can you still derive the same pleasure even if you have a prosthetic "package"? This is a serious question, I'm intrigued as to whether or not the surgical procedures involved actually result in something "just as good" as the real thing.

Depends. I don't know much about FTM's, but I've heard that they don't end up with quite what they wanted, since modern medicine can't quite do that too well. On the other hand, we MTF's can get correct-looking and functioning vaginas, although some trnaswomen have reported that they can't orgasm. But most that I have read about say they can.

I'd recommend a second opinion, in case the doctor has a hidden agenda.

Umm, huh?
The diagnosis is a -good- thing for me.

Thank you. In Sociology, we learn that there are two sexes, but an infinate amount of points between the two "gender" extremes. It's always easier for girls to genderbend than guys (girls can wear suits, but guys cannot wear dresses.... I mean, sure, meterosexual males are more accepted now a days, but not as much as one would think). Technically, girls can cross-dress all they want and not get looked at twice for it. I'm more androygenous, I guess (which is easy being female).

Remember: Transgender is an umbrealla term that covers anyone that in some way breaks or challenges traditional gender roles.

Here is something to check out: http://www.genderpsychology.org/transsexual/glossary.html
That's all quite fascinating. I haven't really done anything with sociology before, and I find that to be profoundly interesting. By the by, where the hell did the word "metrosexual" come from? "Metro" comes from the Greek word mêtêr, mother. Thus a metropolis is the mother-city (polis is "city" in Greek, though it is also the word for what we call "city-state"). "Sexual" is ultimately derived from the Latin sexus, "sex". So metrosexual, etymologically speaking, means mother-sexual. Perhaps something like the Electra complex? I dunno, but it obviously is not meant to be taken literally. So how did it come into being?

Also, ecologically and biologically speaking, there are fallacies in that link. Androgynous "[r]efers to flower clusters in which the staminate flowers are attached above the pistillate flowers, e.g. certain sedges." taken right from the Dictionary of Ecology by Herbert C. Hanson. A hermaphrodite is "[a] plant with stamens and pistil in the same flower or an animal that produces both male and female Gametes, e.g. the rose, earthworm. cf. Dioecious, Gynandromorph." I personally prefer "stamina" as the plural of "stamen", but that's just me. I understand why they are now using these terms, but I wish they'd give credit for the origin of the words where it belongs, and not act like it's purely a phychological or sociological concept.

On the other hand, we MTF's can get correct-looking and functioning vaginas, although some trnaswomen have reported that they can't orgasm. But most that I have read about say they can.

!! warning! i'm about to be crass!!

sounds like a totally normal-fuctioning vagina to me, since i know plenty of non-trans women who can't orgasm either. and no, i'm not kidding around.

i'm happy for you.

Umm, huh?
The diagnosis is a -good- thing for me.
I'd still be wary, he might be one of them, recruiting.

God knew you even while you were in your mother's womb. You were beautifully made. When you were born, you had immeasurable potential.

You can rationalize your reasons for carving up your body, but you are what you always have been -- regardless of how you've spliced and diced yourself.

You are not frightening. But, what you did to yourself is simply ridiculous.

God knew you even while you were in your mother's womb. You were beautifully made. When you were born, you had immeasurable potential.

You can rationalize your reasons for carving up your body, but you are what you always have been -- regardless of how you've spliced and diced yourself.

You are not frightening. But, what you did to yourself is simply ridiculous.

Well then, I suppose God fucked up, eh?

Welcome to the real world, kiddo. Population: everyone but you.




Neo, go for it. Rock on however you wanna.

Good on you, Neo-Anarchists, and good luck with your transition. I think that the reason why transpeople are so threatening to some people is because the idea of two fixed and seperate gender categories that are strictly linked to biological sex is a big part of our culture. When such a fundamental belief is thrown into question, some people will react with fear. I'm glad that you're not letting this put you off!

By the by, where the hell did the word "metrosexual" come from? I believe it was invented by a newspaper columnist during the 1990's, who was describing the rise of men's style magazines like GQ and Esquire. He then wrote another article for salon.com a couple of years ago, and the term took off from there. I can't remember the author's name, but the article (which is quite interesting) should still be in the salon.com archives. I'm pretty sure that "metro-"= metropolitan; and "-sexual" = sexual orientation (obviously he doesn't know as much about etymology as you!)

People have always had a difficult time establishing my gender. A long, long time ago, I would protest at being misidentified - but I got over that a long time ago. It's simply not my problem. It's up to others to figure it out.

DT.

Hey Pat!

!! warning! i'm about to be crass!!

sounds like a totally normal-fuctioning vagina to me, since i know plenty of non-trans women who can't orgasm either. and no, i'm not kidding around.

i'm happy for you.



I don't think man can create what God has made, so a fake vagina is still a fake vagina. I'd be worried about puncturing a fake vagina as I'm a lucky guy, so to speak.

Well then, I suppose God fucked up, eh?

Welcome to the real world, kiddo. Population: everyone but you.




Neo, go for it. Rock on however you wanna.

Sorry, but in the real world, this abomination is abnormal. Welcome to the real world, kiddo. Population: everyone but you. Population on your planet: just you and Glen or Glenda.

I find it depressing that so many people believe it makes a difference. The only non-physical difference is based on a perspective of society, which makes it irrelevent to the individual, especially since nobody's gonna be treating you like a woman (or man as the case may be) if you are transgendered, or at least not on purpose. And as far as I know the parts won't work the same way (I'm not very knowledgable about this...). There's definitely a sexual side, but many say that isn't their reason...

I could understand wanting to be pretty, delicate as women are percieved... but that's not gender specific, and you can't change the shape of your body, even through this process...

Wanting to be strong and masculine... This doesn't apply either.

The only conclusion I can think of, is that trangendered people are rather sexist.

I hope that doesn't sound offensive, I don't mean any harm by it.

Sorry, but in the real world, this abomination is abnormal. Welcome to the real world, kiddo. Population: everyone but you. Population on your planet: just you and Glen or Glenda.

Since your statements suggest that you believe in a God that actively participates in the world I must ask this question; how do you know that God doesn't intend some people to be transsexuals?

A tsunami recently caused over 100,000 deaths by some estimates. A little over three years ago some people flew a plane into the World Trade Center. 40,000 people die every day, more are left suffering over the deaths of their loved ones. People are born with terrible defects. Some children have genetic diseases that cause unimaginable pain and then kill them before their fifth birthdays. God allows a great deal of suffering. This is because God wants to test and challange enough. Nothing easy is worth doing, after all. It only makes sense that transexualism would be a test sent by God to the end of forging a more spiritually perfect creature. There is no reason for God to not use this as a crucible. We have the technology to provide some relief from the problem, but it still results in a difficult and often painful spiritual journey, enough to push a person a little closer the the ideal self that God wants everyone to be.

From a less spiritual viewpoint, transexualism is probably a birth defect. There are minute differences between the male and female brain that are devolped during gestation. This brain devolpment is determined by hormones. If a mother produces too much Estrogen at the wrong time it is possible for a geneticly male fetus to devolp a female brain. If there is too much testosterone, a female fetus may devolp a male brain.
This is also true of most intersexed individuals, although the prenatal hormone imbalance effects their genitalia.

It isn't abomonation, it is proven biological fact.

As others have said, it's to do with our own culture's narrow perception of gender. In reality the situation is far more complex than the very narrow definitions of "male" and "female" (which often force members of both groups to conform to gender stereotypes they are not comfortable with). I dimly recall seeing a documentary about a group in (IIRC) S.E. Asia who have over 10 different gender terms that encompass genitalia, outward appearance, bahaviour and sexual prefence. Anyone know any more on this?

Sorry, but in the real world, this abomination is abnormal. Welcome to the real world, kiddo. Population: everyone but you. Population on your planet: just you and Glen or Glenda.
The same word used for 'abomination' in regard to homosexuality in the Bible (to'ebah) also refers to eating shellfish, sitting where a menstruating woman has sat, etc.

So next time you sit in a restaurant seat (where a menstruating woman may have sat just an hour before) and eat shrimp or pork, you're committing an abomination equal with boinking somebody of your same sex.

Just putting this lame argument in perspective. :rolleyes:

P.S. Your barstool joke (in another thread?) was funny. Heh.

Maybe I need new reading glasses, but can someone point out to me where he mentions God in his statement? Or are you just putting words into other people's mouths for the sake of promoting your agenda?

Maybe I need new reading glasses, but can someone point out to me where he mentions God in his statement? Or are you just putting words into other people's mouths for the sake of promoting your agenda?
Take off your tinfoil beanie. Not everyone has some "hidden agenda". :rolleyes:

whee! i was wondering when the trannies were gonna get our own thread.

and i gotta say i find it heartening that when the transphobes do show up, it's just your regular everyday trolls.

a few points:

the glossary also left out genderqueer
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer)
and all kinds of specific gender variations.

and insofar as sexism is based on placing individuals in rigid sex and gender roles, with men, born with penises, at the top, and women, born with vaginas, at the bottom, and nothing in between, i'd have a real hard time swallowing the "transpeople are sexist" argument, since we challenge most of the notions in the above formulation. the idea that transwomen (always women for some reason. people seem far less threatened by ftms. and by less threatened, i mean they ignore the existence of ftms and all the rest of us queers when talking about transpeople, and just focus on "the transsexual, who is a man who wants to cut off his penis") are somehow an offense toward women isn't a new argument, either. in a society with such narrowly defined gender codes, some people HAVE to play into them in order to gain legitimacy.

and as for "why can't transmen just be masculine women, and why can't transwomen just be feminine men," there's a simple answer: because it's not just about looking "delicate" or feeling "Strong" or whatever gendered thing.
gender identity is an extremely complex blend of how we behave, how we want to behave, how we feel inside our own heads, how we want to feel, how we think, how we want to think, how we look, how we want to look, and on and on and on.

think about it this way: "oh, you want to be a doctor? why can't you just be a nurse, but wear a lab coat and a stethoscope?" "oh, you want to be a librarian? why can't you just be a businessman, but read a lot of books?" "oh, you want to be a christian? why can't you just be an atheist, but talk about god more often?"

see how none of those make sense?

i'm an androgynous mtf dyke genderqueer radical fairy and queer anarchafeminist. PLEEEASE don't try to explain to me how transpeople are an insult to women and reinforce rigid gender stereotypes.

i've met the people enforcing the rigid gender stereotypes, and they ain't us.
among others, they're the people who kill transpeople for being themselves (21 murders this year. look up transgender Day Of Remembrance), the people who assume your vagina's "fake" if they can't stick their dick in it, and the psychiatric establishment that makes you go through hell and hoops to get permission to make your own body the way you want it.

you don't see people getting signed letters from their shrink certifying that they have "nose identity disorder" before they can get a nosejob.

that's what makes it a "long, arduous, painful process"
it doesn't have to be. here's the "birth defect" of being trans: i was born a liberated genderqueer trapped in a sexually repressed and gender-inhibited culture

Sorry, but in the real world, this abomination is abnormal. Welcome to the real world, kiddo. Population: everyone but you. Population on your planet: just you and Glen or Glenda.

Abomination? How is it an abomination?

Abnormal? Describe normal.

and insofar as sexism is based on placing individuals in rigid sex and gender roles, with men, born with penises, at the top, and women, born with vaginas, at the bottom, and nothing in between, i'd have a real hard time swallowing the "transpeople are sexist" argument, since we challenge most of the notions in the above formulation. the idea that transwomen (always women for some reason. people seem far less threatened by ftms. and by less threatened, i mean they ignore the existence of ftms and all the rest of us queers when talking about transpeople, and just focus on "the transsexual, who is a man who wants to cut off his penis") are somehow an offense toward women isn't a new argument, either. in a society with such narrowly defined gender codes, some people HAVE to play into them in order to gain legitimacy.

and as for "why can't transmen just be masculine women, and why can't transwomen just be feminine men," there's a simple answer: because it's not just about looking "delicate" or feeling "Strong" or whatever gendered thing.
gender identity is an extremely complex blend of how we behave, how we want to behave, how we feel inside our own heads, how we want to feel, how we think, how we want to think, how we look, how we want to look, and on and on and on.

think about it this way: "oh, you want to be a doctor? why can't you just be a nurse, but wear a lab coat and a stethoscope?" "oh, you want to be a librarian? why can't you just be a businessman, but read a lot of books?" "oh, you want to be a christian? why can't you just be an atheist, but talk about god more often?"

see how none of those make sense?

i'm an androgynous mtf dyke genderqueer radical fairy and queer anarchafeminist. PLEEEASE don't try to explain to me how transpeople are an insult to women and reinforce rigid gender stereotypes.

i've met the people enforcing the rigid gender stereotypes, and they ain't us.
among others, they're the people who kill transpeople for being themselves (21 murders this year. look up transgender Day Of Remembrance), the people who assume your vagina's "fake" if they can't stick their dick in it, and the psychiatric establishment that makes you go through hell and hoops to get permission to make your own body the way you want it.

you don't see people getting signed letters from their shrink certifying that they have "nose identity disorder" before they can get a nosejob.

that's what makes it a "long, arduous, painful process"
it doesn't have to be. here's the "birth defect" of being trans: i was born a liberated genderqueer trapped in a sexually repressed and gender-inhibited culture

Er, that was a rather incorrect definition of sexism. Sexism is a form of prejudice, where people are categorized with certain characteristics unrelated to their gender, based on their gender. Or, when a person believes being a different sex will make you change in any unrelated way, in this case.

And honestly, if you want to change your personality, "How we behave... How we feel... how we think..." and believe you need to change your ex to do something like THAT, then you probably do need a good therapist.

Relating a difference in profession to a difference in gender is an idiotic analogy, to be blunt. Being a doctor instead of a nurse has actually difference in practical life (i.e. not considering society as a factor), a doctor has more training and ability than a nurse, a nurse can't perform surgery because they don't have the skills. It's not an ambiguous psychological wall placed in their way by their discomfort with the fact that they ended up having a job as a nurse.

And I'll have you know, athiests have been known to talk about god more than christians. ;)

And a vagina that serves no biological purpose is fake, if your cannot recieve sexual pleasure, or copulate with it, it's aesthetic. And there's a difference between getting a nose job and trying to look like the opposite sex, in one case you want to change how you look almost always to simply be more attractive. In the other case, you have people claiming they need to change their gender because they were meant to be that way, even though with current technology, it can only be to look different, or pretend to be the other sex (you're not the other sex. I'm sorry, but you can look really close, and maybe be appreciated as a woman when your a man, or vice versa, but your naughty bits don't work when they're fake. You still have the same chromosomes, You still produce the same hormones. It's merely a psychological difference that is based on a perception of genders that has no real basis).

Your change was pointless, you're only fooling yourself.

The same word used for 'abomination' in regard to homosexuality in the Bible (to'ebah) also refers to eating shellfish, sitting where a menstruating woman has sat, etc.

So next time you sit in a restaurant seat (where a menstruating woman may have sat just an hour before) and eat shrimp or pork, you're committing an abomination equal with boinking somebody of your same sex.

Just putting this lame argument in perspective. :rolleyes:

P.S. Your barstool joke (in another thread?) was funny. Heh.


I avoid all of the above.

Still you don't think hacking off your dookie is seriously weird?

Abomination? How is it an abomination?

Abnormal? Describe normal.

Normal is not feeling trapped in your own skin, and having your penis removes and replaced with a fake vagina.

It isn't abomonation, it is proven biological fact.

I'll remember that the next time my horsey wants to become a mare. What will I do with that horse****? He/She may want it for melancholy reasons.

Abomination? How is it an abomination?

Abnormal? Describe normal.

If 999 out of 1000 people do not change sex, wouldn't those un-messed up folks be normal?

While I completely believe in (not understand, though I try) the necessity for some people to have access to gender reasignment surgery, the actual procedures scare the crap out of me.

I've read extensively, and spoken to several post-op M>F women, and, try as I might, I cannot get over my horror at the idea of removing perfectly functional, quite often beautiful, flesh and organs. With sharp knives.

Because I know myself to be an open minded person, with very few hangups about sexuality or gender issues, I find this reaction in myself quite deeply disturbing.

I'd be very interested to know whether transexuals, pre-op, have some variation of this apall for what might even be described as mutilation, and whether, after surgery, some of you have had some sort of grief for the organs you no longer have, in spite of the fact that your body is now the shape of the person you know yourself to be.

Can anyone help me out here?

It would be really cool if people could change their gender at will. Just for shits and giggles.

Depends. I don't know much about FTM's, but I've heard that they don't end up with quite what they wanted, since modern medicine can't quite do that too well. On the other hand, we MTF's can get correct-looking and functioning vaginas, although some trnaswomen have reported that they can't orgasm. But most that I have read about say they can.

I once saw a show on the Discovery Health channel about FTMs. There are two different surgeries they can get, but neither of them are as close to the "real thing" as might be liked. To elaborate, by one surgery (the less expensive one), you end up "shorter" than average. By the other, more expensive surgery, you get something over more average length, but it's less sensitive than the real thing, can only become erect by a pump, and you end up with a rather large, permanent scar on your arm from where they took skin for the surgery.

But anyways, more power to you, Neo-Anarchists. I myself am a FTM, so I kinda understand what you've been going through, but the other way around.

It would be really cool if people could change their gender at will. Just for shits and giggles.I'm for changing other peoples gender against their will. You wanna talk shits and giggles? Now that would be funny.


I can think of a certain poster in this thread that'd make a good subject to start with.....

Normal is not feeling trapped in your own skin, and having your penis removes and replaced with a fake vagina.

Oh?

And how many people would agree with you? Because as long as one person disagrees with you, you're wrong.


If 999 out of 1000 people do not change sex, wouldn't those un-messed up folks be normal?

As I said before, that 1 person proves you wrong.

Welcome to the wonderful knowledge that people are individuals, not a collective. Borg hasn't gotten to us yet ;)

And how many people would agree with you? Because as long as one person disagrees with you, you're wrong.

Uh, doesn't that sort of, you know, totally contradict the definition of the word normal? If 999/1000 people agree with him, they are the norm, and so is their idea of what the word normal means. "What the hell does normal mean anyway" is a tired argument.

I don't think man can create what God has made, so a fake vagina is still a fake vagina. I'd be worried about puncturing a fake vagina as I'm a lucky guy, so to speak.

I read an article in my campus newspaper about a guy who was travelling with his friends all over asia. When they stopped by Thailand, they went into a club and he picked up this beautiful woman for a one night stand. They had sex and afterwards the woman informed the man that she's a MTF. Apparently, the guy ran out the room yelling at the top of his lungs "oh my god, oh my god. what the hell!" and his buddies came out of their respective rooms wondering what's going on. He told them and they simply asked: "Couldn't you tell?!" And he responded "No! She had everything in place...and it was moist!"

So let's rethink what you said...are you sure you haven't "punctured a fake vagina"? ;)

Of course, it's going to end up looking like I'm a butch once it reaches the point where I look noticably female...
Dont worry, some people dig the butch look. ;)

Transgendered dont scare me, but can give me the creeps. In a way that the ones i know act strange, from a bit to a lot. I had a collegue one was rather unsure of himself, didnt once speak up and seemed to have no self-esteem. He never really tried to fit into the team, which made working with him somewhat harder and he didnt concentrate on the jobs. There always was the question on the tip of my tongue, what is wrong with him? I learned later that he was a ftm and his parents gave him hell, but even subtracting that, there was something you could not grasp which made him a bit creepy.
Then there is Chris, he was the girlfriend of a good friend. Last time i saw him he really freaked me out with his low voice while he hadnt changed much physically, being still pre-op. After the first shock we talked for an hour and i learned he is still with a girl i came to know some years ago. What blew my mind is that those two, who had a lesbian relationship, are both becoming gay, as Alex, the other one is doing the same change. They both loved their respective male side. Ok, everyone to his own, but this is where i could do no more than shake my head.
I know another transgendered, she is really sweet and it makes me angry seeing how much hassles people give her. But even with her, there is the "something isnt right"-feeling. I guess it stems from transgenders trying to overcome the roles society forced upon them and still searching to find their place, not being sure where they stand.
Not sure, but i think if the right person comes along i wouldnt really care if she is a "real" woman or transgendered in regards to a relationship. I would certainly not freak out because she was a boy before, me being bisexual, but i really want to have children, preferably ones to which both me and my life-partner are biological parents and that just wouldnt be possible.

I personally don't believe in having surgury to change one's sex, though its up to the individual. I respect the laws of the land, even if I don't agree with them.

I think it scares people because we (probably stupidly) attach so much importance to gender and sex (which are, traditionally, related and that's only starting to change) as an essential element of our identities. From birth we're told that girls do girl things, wear girl clothes, have girl aspirations, etc., and the reverse for boys. So when people come along who blatantly turn these ideas on their heads, it makes people uncomfortable, because it feels like it's challenging their own identities (as well as the 'rules' about how our sex defines who we are.)

I have to admit that it feels 'weird' to me to think about because I've never felt like anything but a straight, feminine female and fortunately my body backs me up on that! :p But I know that there are a lot of things I don't understand, and this is one of them, so if other people are happier having surgery and stuff, then, that's cool.

Anybody mind a mini thread-hijack? Some might regard it as related...

What do you think of extreme body modification (bifurcating, or splitting, the tongue or penis; scarification; tons of tattoos or piercings; castration; etc.)?

Uh, doesn't that sort of, you know, totally contradict the definition of the word normal? If 999/1000 people agree with him, they are the norm, and so is their idea of what the word normal means. "What the hell does normal mean anyway" is a tired argument.

I noticed he never defined normal.

Here's the thing-as far as the human race goes, there is no normal.

Welcome to a race where people are individuals.

I don't find it wrong… well, not yet. I haven't thought of anything particularly objectionable. But I do find the concept, and especially the confusion as to what sex they are, disturbing. Scary, if you like.

I find daddy-long-legs scary. But I don't hate them.

I'll remember that the next time my horsey wants to become a mare. What will I do with that horse****? He/She may want it for melancholy reasons.

Now you're just being asinine.

Take off your tinfoil beanie. Not everyone has some "hidden agenda". :rolleyes:
Hey now, don't insult the tinfoil beanie. It has rid the world of many an idiot when they stood in an empty field during a thunderstorm searching for grey BEA's.

I'm for changing other peoples gender against their will. You wanna talk shits and giggles? Now that would be funny.


I can think of a certain poster in this thread that'd make a good subject to start with.....


You really want to do that to me? Come on have some pity, I have no limbs, no left eye, no right ear, and a hole in my head from a 12 gauge blast. Physically my penis is my only really decent part. I need it to type, esp when my tongue is too sore to type.

Wow, it seems like there is a large population of transgender people in NS. How odd! :fluffle:

Anybody mind a mini thread-hijack? Some might regard it as related...

What do you think of extreme body modification (bifurcating, or splitting, the tongue or penis; scarification; tons of tattoos or piercings; castration; etc.)?
I personally typically find them pretty gross, but if people want to do that to their bodies, I say let 'em at it.

I find daddy-long-legs scary. But I don't hate them.
Poor phalangids...what'd they ever do to you?

I wonder why it is that people think this?

I, about a year ago, started 'recovering', or so to speak, from the repression and self-censorship I'd had as a young child. I realized I wanted to be female. Three days ago, I recieved a positive diagnosis of gender identity disorder. It's a good thing the realization happened now rather than at a point in the future when it could be more of a blow...

So, what I'm wondering is what is it about us that is frightening or 'wrong'?
What is it that is threatening about us?

You're WEIRD

I wonder why it is that people think this?

I, about a year ago, started 'recovering', or so to speak, from the repression and self-censorship I'd had as a young child. I realized I wanted to be female. Three days ago, I recieved a positive diagnosis of gender identity disorder. It's a good thing the realization happened now rather than at a point in the future when it could be more of a blow...

So, what I'm wondering is what is it about us that is frightening or 'wrong'?
What is it that is threatening about us?

Get a second opinion. This would be a radical change and may at some point in the future replace your "repression and self-censorship I'd had as a young child" as something to blame for your feelings of discomfort.

I'd still be wary, he might be one of them, recruiting.

What the hell?

Did you miss the bit where I want to be a woman?

I went to him for a diagnosis, and got diagnosed as gender dysphoric. The diagnosis is a good thing for me. Hell, he could be Hitler for all I care, he has nothing to do with the fact that I want to be a woman.

I find it depressing that so many people believe it makes a difference. The only non-physical difference is based on a perspective of society, which makes it irrelevent to the individual, especially since nobody's gonna be treating you like a woman (or man as the case may be) if you are transgendered, or at least not on purpose. And as far as I know the parts won't work the same way (I'm not very knowledgable about this...). There's definitely a sexual side, but many say that isn't their reason...

At least not my reason. I've never been ito sex, and i'm not an autogynephile or anything.

I could understand wanting to be pretty, delicate as women are percieved... but that's not gender specific, and you can't change the shape of your body, even through this process...

Huh?
It does change it a bit, although with guys who are ultra-masculine, hormone therapy might not work too great. I'm lucly, I already look vaguely femeinine without any therapy in the first place, so I have a pretty good chance here.

Wanting to be strong and masculine... This doesn't apply either.

The only conclusion I can think of, is that trangendered people are rather sexist.

I wonder what brings you to this opinion? For me, at least, it's not a sexist sort of thing. It's just an inner feeling of being the wrong gender. I could care less about roles or anything, if that's what you mean.

I hope that doesn't sound offensive, I don't mean any harm by it.

No offense taken. It certainly is an interesting opinion.

If 999 out of 1000 people do not change sex, wouldn't those un-messed up folks be normal?
Nice question avoidance.

I believe the big question isn't about normality, as normality has nothing to do with right and wrong.
I believe the bit he really wanted you to answer is why it is an abomination.
I may be wrong.

God knew you even while you were in your mother's womb. You were beautifully made. When you were born, you had immeasurable potential.

You can rationalize your reasons for carving up your body, but you are what you always have been -- regardless of how you've spliced and diced yourself.

You are not frightening. But, what you did to yourself is simply ridiculous.
1:
Did? Haven't done a thing yet about it.

2:
Are always what I have been? I like this one, everybody around me seems to think like this. Many people seem to have missed out on this thing called 'change'.

3:
Ridiculous?
"pathetic: inspiring scornful pity; "how silly an ardent and unsuccessful wooer can be especially if he is getting on in years"- Dashiell Hammett"

Well, there's plenty of ridicule flying about, so in that sense, you are correct. But pity? What we do I see no reason to pity.

Hey now, don't insult the tinfoil beanie. It has rid the world of many an idiot when they stood in an empty field during a thunderstorm searching for grey BEA's.

So -that's- what they're really for!
:p

You're WEIRD
How wonderfully insightful.

The questions we (or at least the intelligent ones) plague ourselves with is enough hell to suffer through.

We are who we are, for one reason or another... be it genetics (good or bad), upbringing (good or bad), or otherwise derived characteristics and behaviors (can we build our own free will?). From there... we only choose to do what's best for us, although we always must consider the society as a whole (have less children!)...

In other words:
I don't give a fuck. We all got problems. I might like wearing dresses on occasion too, but certainly I don't see a need to undergo a surgery that endangers life and wastes valuable tax payer money.

And leave your mythology out of debates. It's pathetic.

my ex would make a hot chick. he's a rather pretty guy. or was, i haven't seen him in some time...

anyways, i don't really care. i'm sure most people would be honest about such things in relationships and really, i wouldn't have an issue with the thought of someone having formerly been the same gender as me so much as the lack of reproductive capability (if i wanted to plan a life with the person) which could be an issue.

I wonder why it is that people think this?

I, about a year ago, started 'recovering', or so to speak, from the repression and self-censorship I'd had as a young child. I realized I wanted to be female. Three days ago, I recieved a positive diagnosis of gender identity disorder. It's a good thing the realization happened now rather than at a point in the future when it could be more of a blow...

So, what I'm wondering is what is it about us that is frightening or 'wrong'?
What is it that is threatening about us?

I am white. Would it be a healthy alternative lifestyle choice if I wanted to be black?

I am glad to hear that you got a proper diagnosis. Now, you should seek a cure, rather than denial and butchery.

Get a second opinion. This would be a radical change and may at some point in the future replace your "repression and self-censorship I'd had as a young child" as something to blame for your feelings of discomfort.
they don't let people undergo sex change operations until they're absolutely certain about everything. i think they make people live a year as the other gender before hormone therapy and the genital surgery...

I am white. Would it be a healthy alternative lifestyle choice if I wanted to be black?

I am glad to hear that you got a proper diagnosis. Now, you should seek a cure, rather than denial and butchery.
the cure is the surgery. actually, even hormone injections have been shown to have positive changes for a person.

this isn't a brain chemistry thing, it's a brain structure thing. they've done studies on the brains of transgendered people. the hypocampus of transgendered males (people who were initially male physically... this shit gets conplicated with genders... so i'm clarifying) were the same size as people who were born as women and the hypocampuses of transgendered females were the same size as naturally born males.

so they actually are men trapped in women's bodies and vice versa. it's not some childhood trauma thing, it's not some wacked out body chemistry. the cure is to be put in the right body, or as close as is possible.

they don't let people undergo sex change operations until they're absolutely certain about everything. i think they make people live a year as the other gender before hormone therapy and the genital surgery...

Exactly. Well, I didn't think before hormone therapy, as it would be a bit hard to pass without it, but I'm not really sure. But they make as close to certain as they can get that nobody's making some horrible mistake.

Exactly. Well, I didn't think before hormone therapy, as it would be a bit hard to pass without it, but I'm not really sure. But they make as close to certain as they can get that nobody's making some horrible mistake.
yeah, i'm pretty sure there would be a number of lawsuits if the proper precautions weren't taken and someone deceided they didn't want this 10 years after the fact.

i'm not entirely certain about all the regulations surrounding this stuff. the most i've really read into it is when the ontario government took gender reassignment surgeries off ohip overage and the paper wrote an article featuring someone who was stuck in a transitional period...

What the hell?

Did you miss the bit where I want to be a woman?

I went to him for a diagnosis, and got diagnosed as gender dysphoric. The diagnosis is a good thing for me. Hell, he could be Hitler for all I care, he has nothing to do with the fact that I want to be a woman.
Suit yourself. If someone wanted to amputate my manhood, I'd want a second opinion. But by your defensiveness, it sounds like you made up your mind before he even gave you the diagnosis.

At least not my reason. I've never been ito sex, and i'm not an autogynephile or anything.
I usually know things like this, but what is an "autogynephile"? I can obviously see the etymological components, "aut(o)-", from the Greek autos, same. "Gyn-" from the Greek gynê, woman. "-Phile" from the Greek philos, loving or dear. That seems like it would be a woman who sexually or romantically loves herself, a female version of Narkissos (Narcissus) but I'm not sure if that's quite right.

Suit yourself. If someone wanted to amputate my manhood, I'd want a second opinion. But by your defensiveness, it sounds like you made up your mind before he even gave you the diagnosis.

That is exactly what I said.
I want to be a woman.
It's not like he said 'You should be a woman' or anything

EDIT:
For that matter, I don't even *want* my manhood.

I usually know things like this, but what is an "autogynephile"? I can obviously see the etymological components, "aut(o)-", from the Greek autos, same. "Gyn-" from the Greek gynê, woman. "-Phile" from the Greek philos, loving or dear. That seems like it would be a woman who sexually or romantically loves herself, a female version of Narkissos (Narcissus) but I'm not sure if that's quite right.
An autogynephile is a man who is sexually excited by the thought of himself being a woman.

An autogynephile is a man who is sexually excited by the thought of himself being a woman.
Ok, thanks. Are there any female equivalents? I'd guess they'd be referred to as "autoandrophiles"?

This just occured to me--aren't there endocrinological problems with sex changes? Aren't the primary and secondary sex characteristics sustained by hormones? I don't know, but it seems like if a person really wants to be the opposite sex, they'd need to get injections of the female sex hormones for it to really even feel authentic.

I think the solution is to get all of these "transgendered" people full length mirrors and show them how freaky they look. Well, at least they can make a good living in the world of Transgendered porn. I saw a film once called "Best of Both Worlds:Chicks with $icks", it was interesting.

I think the solution is to get all of these "transgendered" people full length mirrors and show them how freaky they look. Well, at least they can make a good living in the world of Transgendered porn. I saw a film once called "Best of Both Worlds:Chicks with $icks", it was interesting.

I doubt that would work all too well, as manyof us think we looked worse before than after...
Hell, a good many of us fit in so well you wouldn't even notice though.
:p

I am truely amazed at the amount of trans people on NS.

Some people simply don't get it, and won't try to understand. I don't think i can explain trans myself. Most people can understand pain and fear, that's what a day in most trans people's lives can center around. I think it was 3 months ago that a trans woman was shot 7 times in Loring Park because her boyfriend became scared that someone might find out about him sleeping with a tranny. I'd say 'now everyone knows' but i don't recall seeing it on the news. Somehow she survived and i went to a vigil for her outside her hospital in downtown. It's mostly trans women i know of that end up getting attacked, but you just never know. You never know how people are going to react, i've gotten quite enough disrespect and scary experiences in my time to carry a knife when i leave the house.

I've got a court date set for the name change and i'm in therapy working on getting things set up for T (testosterone). I'll wait on bottom surgery till they come out with something better than a miteoplasty (sp) and a phalleoplasty.
That's my two cents i guess.

I've got a court date set for the name change and i'm in therapy working on getting things set up for T (testosterone).
I guess that answers my question on the endocrinological aspect of transsexuality.

I doubt that would work all too well, as manyof us think we looked worse before than after...
Hell, a good many of us fit in so well you wouldn't even notice though.
:p

I guess, just give me a bottle of Jim Beam and a a couple goofballs, I wouldn't even know the difference as I gots no limbs. I'm afraid they calls me unicycle!

1:
Did? Haven't done a thing yet about it.

2:
Are always what I have been? I like this one, everybody around me seems to think like this. Many people seem to have missed out on this thing called 'change'.

3:
Ridiculous?
"pathetic: inspiring scornful pity; "how silly an ardent and unsuccessful wooer can be especially if he is getting on in years"- Dashiell Hammett"

Well, there's plenty of ridicule flying about, so in that sense, you are correct. But pity? What we do I see no reason to pity.





What your ilk does is ridiculous (and perhaps pitiful), but I'm certainly not pitying you -- you are not an innocent victim. Instead, you are a malicious perpetrator. Call yourself "enlightened" or ""free-thinking" or even "tolerant", but what you intend to do is wrong, no matter how many other people are encouraging you to do it.

What your ilk does is ridiculous (and perhaps pitiful), but I'm certainly not pitying you -- you are not an innocent victim. Instead, you are a malicious perpetrator. Call yourself "enlightened" or ""free-thinking" or even "tolerant", but what you intend to do is wrong, no matter how many other people are encouraging you to do it.

So now we get to the whole issue of defining 'wrong'.

We're waiting...

I'll wait on bottom surgery till they come out with something better than a miteoplasty (sp) and a phalleoplasty.
I did a little digging on this, and I believe you meant "metoidioplasty" and "phalloplasty". Also, metoidioplasty is actually a form of phalloplasty, and a metoidioplasty is apparently usually followed by a full-scale phalloplasty.

Exactly. Well, I didn't think before hormone therapy, as it would be a bit hard to pass without it, but I'm not really sure. But they make as close to certain as they can get that nobody's making some horrible mistake.

Hormones really depend on your therapist. A reputable doctor will want a letter from a therapist going over your details and giving a detailed diagnosis before writing a prescription. The current standards of care say you need three months. Some therapists want six, some even more.

After you get the letter, you would normally be able to start hormones.

God knew you even while you were in your mother's womb. You were beautifully made. When you were born, you had immeasurable potential.

You can rationalize your reasons for carving up your body, but you are what you always have been -- regardless of how you've spliced and diced yourself.

You are not frightening. But, what you did to yourself is simply ridiculous.

"god" makes all kinds of "mistakes"

would you be against a person who was born with a cleft palate or spina bifida getting surgery to correct these problems? are they ruining gods plan for them?

as long as a person gets a professional diagnosis and goes to a reputable surgeon (so as to keep a confused person from being taken advantage of) whose business is it but his/hers?

we only get one life, we all deserve a chance at happiness as long as it doesnt hurt anyone else. no one should be forced to live a lie in order to make other people feel comfortable.

and no one decides to have such radical surgery unless they are sure it is necessary to their own happiness and sometimes to their own ability to keep living. its not a light or easy decision. so give neo some respect in believing that he has thought this through and isnt going to utterly change his life on a whim.

good luck to you neo. dont rush it. there is more to being a woman than it seems. give yourself time to sink into your new identity and to figure out just what it DOES mean to be a woman once the naughty bits have been re-arranged.

Suit yourself. If someone wanted to amputate my manhood, I'd want a second opinion. But by your defensiveness, it sounds like you made up your mind before he even gave you the diagnosis.

They don't tell you they want to cut off your manhood. The diagnosis requires that you tell the therapist that you've felt like you should have been born the other sex, and that you've had these feelings for a long time. The diagnosis doesn't mean anything other than that.

Any steps for treatment are up to you. If you want to start hormones, a therapist would need to see you for a while to judge whether it would likely help. And going all the way to surgery is a huge step with a number of safety nets to try and make sure that people don't decide to change their body on a lark.

Some people do nothing after the diagnosis, other eventually do more. It really depends on the person.

I did a little digging on this, and I believe you meant "metoidioplasty" and "phalloplasty". Also, metoidioplasty is actually a form of phalloplasty, and a metoidioplasty is apparently usually followed by a full-scale phalloplasty.


You're right on the spelling, i didn't have my book near me. From what i've read and heard explained by other trans men, metoidioplasty's are used mostly for urination. From the book i have here, "The Phallus Palace" the explanation before the surgical pictures is: "..This procedure, considered the safest, maximizes the potential of the patient's enlarged clitoris (enlarged through prolonged use of testosterone) to form a micro penis."
"The advantages of this operation are: It is a safe operation with a low complication rate; results are aesthetically pleasing; the penis is highly sensate; the patient can urinate in a standing position; and no bridges are burned should the patient elect to undergo a different procedure down the line."
So yes, it could be followed by a phalloplasty and it's not very dangerous, even if it is very, very small. A phalloplasty though.. there are just too many risks and it would take me years to save up that much money. I have yet to hear of an insurance company that covers it, and in just the case stated in the book it cost him 60,000 dollars. I've heard much higher than that and with the research they are doing in other countries, i have hope someday of something better. I'm only 20, i can wait i hope.

good luck to you neo. dont rush it. there is more to being a woman than it seems. give yourself time to sink into your new identity and to figure out just what it DOES mean to be a woman once the naughty bits have been re-arranged.

Actually, the 'finding out what it means to be a woman' bit comes first in the year of living as a woman. No 'rushing it is going to happen. Hell, even if there was a way that would do everything really fast, I don't think I would. The process of the change is something that I feel is needed and important.

You're WEIRD
You have deduced the state of 99.9999% of the human race, and all the rest are just boring.