NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6775311/

When Arafat died, I was optimistic that the peace process could finally progress again with Abbas (Abu Mazen). Now I'm getting a bad feeling that nothing will change at all. Abbas has stated in the past that the intifada was a mistake, and now look at what he is doing; actions speak louder than words! Rather than stopping the terrorists, he's gonna cooperate with them. The PA hasn't changed, as they still put out propaganda on television and Abbas will probably do nothing to help. I have a bad feeling that he will be just like Arafat. Arafat spoke for and praised peace in English and called for jihad, martyrdom, and bloodshed in Arabic. I fear Abbas will do the same.

Nothing in Palestine will ever change.

When i read the title of the thread, i thought the guy was bissexual! O.o

Nothing in Palestine will ever change.

I was naive to think that it would, but I would say that with Arafat gone is the most major thing to happen in years, and this is the last chance to see if anything will change at all.

Nothing in Palestine will ever change.
Sad, but true - if only people would realize that religion and land is an absurd thing to fight over (it is my opinion that all humans have a degree of absurdity to them).

bump

1more for good luck

Well its possible he will try to emulate Arafat, but remember that he was well known for his attempts to reform before Arafat died. I find it likely that the old guard in the PA still holds a lot of power, and it will be quite some time before the PA is ready to stand on its own feet.

This is a pity, because Israel could really use a partner in the pull outs that are rapidly approaching. If the PA doesn't get its act together in a timely manner Hamas and other groups will fill the power vaccum with their own agenda.

Abbas is walking a fine line. If he plays too much to the armed political groups he risks alienating moderate Palestinians, Israelis, and western governments. If plays too much to the opposite, he'll end up a target for a Palestinian gunman himself. I'm hoping that he, and enough Palestinians, have the intelligence to realize the opportunities which are before them.

Abbas is walking a fine line. If he plays too much to the armed political groups he risks alienating moderate Palestinians, Israelis, and western governments. If plays too much to the opposite, he'll end up a target for a Palestinian gunman himself. I'm hoping that he, and enough Palestinians, have the intelligence to realize the opportunities which are before them.
I'm pretty sure this is right. Arafat had to do the same thing, but I also think Arafat was much more militant than Abbas will be.

And I really hope everyone doesn't really believe that there can never be peace. If we don't believe we can do something, how can we ever hope to achieve it?

Abbas is walking a fine line. If he plays too much to the armed political groups he risks alienating moderate Palestinians, Israelis, and western governments. If plays too much to the opposite, he'll end up a target for a Palestinian gunman himself. I'm hoping that he, and enough Palestinians, have the intelligence to realize the opportunities which are before them.

Yes the opportunity to quell the current rebellion so that the Palestinians can arm themselves with much better weapons for the next rebellion.

Or did you mean the opportunity to live in the largest concentration camp on the planet and hope that the warder allows your best & brightest to become gardeners, trash collectors and window washers.

When i read the title of the thread, i thought the guy was bissexual! O.o
I thought it was about the hit Swedish group from the '70s.

Blatantly emulating Arafat, which Abbas is doing, is one of the worst things for the peace process. To most Palestinians, Arafat was their savior, but to the Israelis, Arafat was their worst enemy.

Nothing in Palestine will ever change.

Yep ... damn those people for fighting to get land back stolen from them! Damn them all to hell! :rolleyes:

Yep ... damn those people for fighting to get land back stolen from them! Damn them all to hell! :rolleyes:

Assuming that "stolen" is the correct term, I don't think that the Jordanians and Egyptians are trying anymore.

Yes the opportunity to quell the current rebellion so that the Palestinians can arm themselves with much better weapons for the next rebellion.

Or did you mean the opportunity to live in the largest concentration camp on the planet and hope that the warder allows your best & brightest to become gardeners, trash collectors and window washers.

No, the opportunity to establish a stable Palestinian state which is not based upon the power of one internal group to slaughter another. It's the best opportunity they've had since Arafat died and stopped playing the situation for his own personal gain. I don't know what to expect from Abbas, and I am highly doubtful, but I hope none the less.

No, the opportunity to establish a stable Palestinian state which is not based upon the power of one internal group to slaughter another. It's the best opportunity they've had since Arafat died and stopped playing the situation for his own personal gain. I don't know what to expect from Abbas, and I am highly doubtful, but I hope none the less.

Exactly what I mean, a stable Palestinian state. A stable state must have the ability to withstand attack from it's enemies. A stable state must have the ability to deal with internal strife. There are 2 ways to achieve this.

1. A Palestinian state designed to act as a supplier of cheap labour to Israel, so that Israel is no longer the enemy. This would require a leadership willing to work for or with Israel to crush internal dissent and resentment. It will require a great deal of funding from Israel to counteract the the funding provided to militant Palestinians from the rest of the Arab world (this funding will only increase as the oil price increases). This is a similar stability as achieved in the Bantustans of South Africa, which were quite successful for as long as the South African funding held out.

2. A Palestinian state that is working to aquire weapons sufficient to force Israel into serious negotiations, this would be able to gain some popular support from the militants to alleviate most internal dissent. The aims being something like sufficient force to prevent the daily harrassment of Palestinians by Israel, to give Palestine it's own border control and allow free movement of security personal throughout the Palestinian territories.

Unfortunately the PA isn't doing much to stop the terrorist organizations (though there have been Palestinian Police officers who have given their lives to stop terrorists and have become heroes in doing so). The PA would apparently rather cooperate with them.

2. A Palestinian state that is working to aquire weapons sufficient to force Israel into serious negotiations, this would be able to gain some popular support from the militants to alleviate most internal dissent. The aims being something like sufficient force to prevent the daily harrassment of Palestinians by Israel, to give Palestine it's own border control and allow free movement of security personal throughout the Palestinian territories.

Israel has repeatedly attempted to negotiate with Palestine. Offering everything from full recognition as an independant state to large portions of the territories Israel captured from Egypt and Syria in the Six Day War. The offers have repeadedly resulted in large scale blood shed by Palestinian terrorist groups.

Palestinians are fragmented. There is no one group which holds enough power to control all of the various factions. In order for there to be any semblance of peace between Israel and Palestine someone has to acheive popular support amoung Palestinians without targeting and slaughtering civilians. While disarming the violent armed political groups which are the cause of the sustained turmoil in the region. Otherwise all Palestinians will acheive is a series of collapsing, ineffective governments with corruption at high levels and gangsterism at low levels.

How would the peace process turn if US couldn't afford to finance Israel anymore? Is that why settlers are being pulled back now, anticipating tighter budget?

How would the peace process turn if US couldn't afford to finance Israel anymore?

The US government is hardly the largest providor of money to Israel. It is the millions of family members of Israelis who live abroad which send money home who are the greatest source of funding.

Is that why settlers are being pulled back now, anticipating tighter budget?

Israelis are sick of having their wives, husbands, children, and grandparents slaughtered while trying to get to and from work and school. Many Palestinians are sick of terrorist groups attacking Israelis and hiding in mosques and heavily populated areas. Militant groups on both sides would love to see each other wiped from the face of the earth. Moderate Israelis just want live without having to worry about some fucking moron blowing himself up and murdering innocent civilians. Moderate Palestinians just want to live without having to worry about having their families killed and injured when the ensuing Israeli retaliations hit their homes becomes the people responsible hide in the same building. Luckily in Israel it is moderates who hold enough power to keep the extremists subdued. It is the shrinking moderate majority in Israel who have managed the pull back.

Israel has repeatedly attempted to negotiate with Palestine. Offering everything from full recognition as an independant state to large portions of the territories Israel captured from Egypt and Syria in the Six Day War. The offers have repeadedly resulted in large scale blood shed by Palestinian terrorist groups.

Showing that the Palestinian government did not possess sufficient force to gain a position which was acceptable to the Palestinian people. After each negotiation failed to win sufficient support to move forward, the conflict restarted with Israel the dominant power killing Palestinians at a ratio of 4 to 1.

Palestinians are fragmented. There is no one group which holds enough power to control all of the various factions. In order for there to be any semblance of peace between Israel and Palestine someone has to acheive popular support amoung Palestinians without targeting and slaughtering civilians. While disarming the violent armed political groups which are the cause of the sustained turmoil in the region. Otherwise all Palestinians will acheive is a series of collapsing, ineffective governments with corruption at high levels and gangsterism at low levels.

The Palestinians generally distrust Israel and this could be the uniting force required. A broard coalition of PA and militant groups working together towards a long term goal of aquiring sufficient force to threaten Israel could be inspired to cease terrorist activities and provide a peaceful environment. The existing rebellion is not a winnable proposition for the Palestinians and should be stopped.

If all militant groups and the PA declared a ceasefire and started to re-arm it would be up to Israel to decide the future of the conflict. It would require technology not currently in existance to defeat Israel, so there would be a large potential time of peace available to Israel if it is willing to accept the ceasefire. Something of the order of 20 years maybe.

It is not up to the PA to decide on a cease fire. It's not like this is a conventional war between the Israeli Government and the PA. This involves the Israelis against Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, etc., and surely these terrorist organizations are not willing to commit to a ceasefire. This is why the PA must aid in cracking down on these terrorist groups, but right now they seem more interested in cooperating with them and ingaging in a policy of appeasement, which is one of the worst things possible.

The Palestinians generally distrust Israel and this could be the uniting force required. A broard coalition of PA and militant groups working together towards a long term goal of aquiring sufficient force to threaten Israel could be inspired to cease terrorist activities and provide a peaceful environment. The existing rebellion is not a winnable proposition for the Palestinians and should be stopped.

If all militant groups and the PA declared a ceasefire and started to re-arm it would be up to Israel to decide the future of the conflict. It would require technology not currently in existance to defeat Israel, so there would be a large potential time of peace available to Israel if it is willing to accept the ceasefire. Something of the order of 20 years maybe.

You're suggesting a 20 year window of opportunity for peace based on a ceasfire made possible by re-armament and finaly a war between two nations? This is assuming that Palestinians could ever forge together and gather the money and political will to build an army? Such an assumption is preposterous-Israel is still in full military contol of the territories, (as disadavntageous to both sides as this may be) and would never allow such a rearmament to take place.
Appart from that, your entire premis is flawed; why would the Palestinians rally around a hatred of Israel to forward their cause when Israel itself is intrumental in its achievment?
In fact, I believe that Abbas shows great potential: because his hands are just bloody enough to placate extreme factions, and his words are moderate enough to make the rest of us forget his history.

"They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

[QUOTE=The Isles of Gryph]The US government is hardly the largest providor of money to Israel. It is the millions of family members of Israelis who live abroad which send money home who are the greatest source of funding.

Lets not forget that Israel posseses an ECONOMY. Yes! Israel actually has companies, industries, institutions of higher learning and research, and a large public sector. True, economically these are very hard years, and yes, donations are significant, but Israel is very capable of standing up on its own economic strength.

You're suggesting a 20 year window of opportunity for peace based on a ceasfire made possible by re-armament and finaly a war between two nations? This is assuming that Palestinians could ever forge together and gather the money and political will to build an army? Such an assumption is preposterous-Israel is still in full military contol of the territories, (as disadavntageous to both sides as this may be) and would never allow such a rearmament to take place.

Final war would be at least 10 to 20 years away. Final war with weapons sufficient to threaten Israel would be very bloody and therefore may not happen. Negotiations can only happen when both sides are required to negotiate, currently Israel has no requirement to negotiate. However the 10 to 20 years of peace could be achieved, and that is worth it.

Of course if Israel intervenes so that this cannot happen then the low level - bombing, mortar & rocket attacks - war will continue. Or Israel must establish a friendly quisling PA. This quisling PA will require a great deal of funding and assistance from Israel to suppress the militant groups. The militant groups will continue to recieve funding from the Gulf Oil States.

Appart from that, your entire premis is flawed; why would the Palestinians rally around a hatred of Israel to forward their cause when Israel itself is intrumental in its achievment?

:confused:

In fact, I believe that Abbas shows great potential: because his hands are just bloody enough to placate extreme factions, and his words are moderate enough to make the rest of us forget his history.

"They never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity"

Abbas has asked the militants to stop mortaring & rocketing Israel because it is ineffectual. Abbas says the rebellion should cease because it is not working. I too believe he shows great potential.

^ But Abbas is also calls those terrorists "freedom fighters." He is inciting them to fight against what he calls the "Zionist Enemy," telling them never to give up, and that they will get Jerusalem (and he is a Holocaust denier). So how can he have both of these contradicting views at once? Arafat showed the world his contradicting views also. He called for peace in English and for war in Arabic, and we all know which path Arafat chose. History repeats itself. The more I read about Abbas, the more I think of Arafat.