NationStates Jolt Archive

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.

well, Satan wants us to enjoy sin so hell must be a pretty cool place.

Wait, I'm sidetracking. Why would anyone ever believe something based completely off invisibles?

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.

Yeah but most Chridtians have preachers that say otherwise.
So people like Pat Roberson(illegal diamind mines are a no no) seem to be the problem. They are sending out wrong message.

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.

This is acceptable if we deny God is omnipotent.

Satan's going to give me a ride?! Cool. :D

well, Satan wants us to enjoy sin so hell must be a pretty cool place.

Wait, I'm sidetracking. Why would anyone ever believe something based completely off invisibles?

That is satan's deception. If you take a life of pleasure now, you get an eternity of pain. Take a life of pain now, you get an eternity of pleasure and happiness when you die.

... If you take a life of pleasure now, you get an eternity of pain... Pleasure and pain aren't always that separate. And both are needed... light and shadow, good and evil. One illuminates the other.

The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Saved. Such a funny concept. If God is really all powerful, He can save whomever whenever He wants to. But no, God wants you to believe something in order to get to Heaven. You have to brainwash yourself to enter into Heaven. This is such outdated thinking.
No one can love God the way He loves us, and He can do things for people who don't want Him in their lives. He just doesn't want to, according to Christian doctrine.
Hell was established for Satan and his angels only, according to the Biblical accounts.
I was flipping through the channels this morning and came across Joyce Meyer's show. She was talking about how Satan makes you do this and Satan makes you do that. I don't think Satan does ANYTHING, not even temptation. Satan is NOT omnipotent. There are simply some things that are human nature. How does having God in your life keep Satan from "grabbing control" of you? It didn't stop Satan from bothering Jesus, now did it?

The bottom line is this, though.

If god is good, why would he not just scoop a sinner out of the jaws of hell anyway? Is it that he cannot? then he is not omnipotent. Is it that he won't? Then he is not forgiving.

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.

Ah yes, but then you are faced with the dilemma that either God designed the system in this way (including creating Satan) and thus is not totally benevolent, or alternatively you must adopt a Manichean view of the creation wherein Satan had a hand in it.

Let me clear something up for yall...

...more to the point, do you have a shred of evidence for what you state?

That is satan's deception. If you take a life of pleasure now, you get an eternity of pain. Take a life of pain now, you get an eternity of pleasure and happiness when you die.
If all the info is direct from God, so to speak, how do we know it's true?

I think I just found my entertainment for the evening. I'm getting some popcorn, a beer, and I'm just gonna watch this thread descend into the pit. :D

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.

Read Revelation 20:11-15, and please stop misquoting the Bible.

Clemson Tiger, unless you are suggesting God is cruel for the sake of cruelty, or not 'all powerful' now, at the time of creation or ever, your assertions are nonesensical. Perhaps you should have thought this through a bit more before you posted, more importantly if this is your belief you certainly should think about it somewhat more, because it doesnt make sense. Surely you agree if your religious beliefs are to have any chance of being correct (as opposed to being false and untrue), they would at least need to not be internally self contrary?

I think I just found my entertainment for the evening. I'm getting some popcorn, a beer, and I'm just gonna watch this thread descend into the pit. :D

Surely you agree if your religious beliefs are to have any chance of being correct (as opposed to being false and untrue), they would at least need to not be internally self contrary?

There is actually a solution to the problem which isn't a heresy - I just want to see how long it takes before someone posts it.

Saved. Such a funny concept. If God is really all powerful, He can save whomever whenever He wants to. But no, God wants you to believe something in order to get to Heaven. You have to brainwash yourself to enter into Heaven. This is such outdated thinking.
No one can love God the way He loves us, and He can do things for people who don't want Him in their lives. He just doesn't want to, according to Christian doctrine.
Hell was established for Satan and his angels only, according to the Biblical accounts.
I was flipping through the channels this morning and came across Joyce Meyer's show. She was talking about how Satan makes you do this and Satan makes you do that. I don't think Satan does ANYTHING, not even temptation. Satan is NOT omnipotent. There are simply some things that are human nature. How does having God in your life keep Satan from "grabbing control" of you? It didn't stop Satan from bothering Jesus, now did it?
Kind of like we're perfectly capable of screwing things up on our own? Heh!

Oh Boy! More proselytizing!

Oh Boy! More proselytizing!
Eeek! WHERE? Run away!!!

I really hate the little repenting law. Let me ask u something. If Hitler did not take his own life, if he would of gotten shot, now take if hitler would of gotten on his knees and asked god for forgiveness and accpeted Christ as his savor, would he have gotten into heaven? Now let me ask u something don't you think living life good and honest, trying to be pure of heart and just being a good person and not have religion play any part of our life is good enough? You say no, you will we go to hell. i don't want to think that b/c that means a great soul like Gandhi is burning in hell and not in paridise. One last question. What if christains are wrong? what if another religion is right religions like buddism think that if ur spirt is pure it will float up, if its dark it will fall from its own bad karma, and even then ur not forever in hell just enought time for ur bad karma to burn off. what if they are right? if so then repenting is just a waste.

I really hate the little repenting law. Let me ask u something. If Hitler did not take his own life, if he would of gotten shot, now take if hitler would of gotten on his knees and asked god for forgiveness and accpeted Christ as his savor, would he have gotten into heaven? Now let me ask u something don't you think living life good and honest, trying to be pure of heart and just being a good person and not have religion play any part of our life is good enough? You say no, you will we go to hell. i don't want to think that b/c that means a great soul like Gandhi is burning in hell and not in paridise. One last question. What if christains are wrong? what if another religion is right religions like buddism think that if ur spirt is pure it will float up, if its dark it will fall from its own bad karma, and even then ur not forever in hell just enought time for ur bad karma to burn off. what if they are right? if so then repenting is just a waste.
Repenting is never a waste, even for non-Christians. The original Aramaic term translates as "change your mind for the better and heartily amend your behavior, with abhorrence of your past behavior" ( with the understanding that your past behavior has been unacceptable in some way ). Just sounds like good practice to me. :)

There is actually a solution to the problem which isn't a heresy - I just want to see how long it takes before someone posts it.
Done before that post was even though up.
...shred of evidence for what you state?
Reading the last line of the OP, the first thought that crossed my mind was "there's no way this guy's actually read The Bible..."

Repenting is never a waste, even for non-Christians. The original Aramaic term translates as "change your mind for the better and heartily amend your behavior, with abhorrence of your past behavior" ( with the understanding that your past behavior has been unacceptable in some way ). Just sounds like good practice to me. :)


i agree with that. So i do say sorry for my last line in my statement. I feel repenting is like saying sorry and fixing onces wrongs not going to chruch getting on ur knees and asking a god for forgiveness. besides if he is real and if he is everywhere he will see these and "clean" ur soul. Thanks for bring that up :D

There is actually a solution to the problem which isn't a heresy - I just want to see how long it takes before someone posts it.

My comments are directed at the poster's actual post, which as it stands doesnt make sense according to 'common beliefs' about the christian god. I re-read my comments and was concerned people might think they infer things such as a judgement on the validity of the premises or truth value of the conclusion posited. I dont believe that one person's particular unsound argument renders either the premises employed false, nor the conclusion invalid, so if my earlier comments appeared to imply that I believed I could disregard the premises or conclusion included in the 1st poster's comments, because of the unsoundness of the argument presented, sorry...that's a much bigger assertion than I currently feel qualified to make... ;)

With regards to there being a non-heresy solution, I'd be interested to hear more, I'm curious as to whether you mean a solution that is merely (kind of a misnomer given the scope) internally coherent with general chrisitian principals or principals that can be reasoned as being those christians ought to hold, or is the solution also 'ethically acceptable' independent of religious/tradition justified morality?

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.

So...Satan is more powerful than God. Gotcha. I know with whom I'm aligning myself.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Looks like Satan is the first to go into the fire, followed by Death and Hades, and then by all of the mortals whose names are not in the Book of Life. If Satan is already in there, how can he cast the sinners in?

Earlier it describes the fate of those who follow the Beast as being tormented in the presence of G-d and His holy angels forever and ever. So the popular modernistic idea that damnation is being forever cast from the presence of G-d is also an unbiblical heresey. Face it: it is G-d HimSelf Who condemns sinners to the fires of Gehenna, which burn before His throne and in His presence forever. Satan wants to drag as many mortals into his damnation with him as he can, but he is not the One who condemns them.

Done before that post was even though up.

Your meaning here is less than clear.

With regards to there being a non-heresy solution, I'd be interested to hear more, I'm curious as to whether you mean a solution that is merely (kind of a misnomer given the scope) internally coherent with general chrisitian principals or principals that can be reasoned as being those christians ought to hold, or is the solution also 'ethically acceptable' independent of religious/tradition justified morality?

I believe it is coherent with general Christian principles and doesn't require any additional principles that they 'ought' to hold. As to whether it is 'ethically acceptable' independent of religious/traditionally justified morality - the answer to that is too closely linked to what I believe the solution to be to discuss it without giving away too much.


Forgive me for treating this discussion as a game here, but as you know, these same topics just roll around again and again every couple of weeks or months.

I think I just found my entertainment for the evening. I'm getting some popcorn, a beer, and I'm just gonna watch this thread descend into the pit. :D

This is going quite interestingly, it's not really headed for the pit and thats pretty amazeing considering the subject.

I believe it is coherent with general Christian principles and doesn't require any additional principles that they 'ought' to hold. As to whether it is 'ethically acceptable' independent of religious/traditionally justified morality - the answer to that is too closely linked to what I believe the solution to be to discuss it without giving away too much.

Aha, well I wont know until you reveal, but all the solutions I have ever encountered for this particular quandary have always seemed to me to fall short either in the 1st criteria (internally consistent with general 'christian norms' either as they exist, or as per the implications of the posited solution), or fail on the second, ie they somehow contravene ethical positions that have wide spread 'mainstream' acceptance, and which are if viewed independent of any religious implications, logically justifiable within utilitarian and/or functional 'value systems'.

I'll just have to keep tuning in I guess.... ;)


Forgive me for treating this discussion as a game here, but as you know, these same topics just roll around again and again every couple of weeks or months.
No worries, way I see it you gotta make your own fun in the big city,..... and everywhere else for that matter... ;) :p

This is going quite interestingly, it's not really headed for the pit and thats pretty amazeing considering the subject.
I know. I'm a little disappointed. More flames! More flames! :D

God does not send us to hell--because there is no hell!!!! The idea of having a miserable life and then partying all day in heaven is just a sadistic way of depriving people for joy they experience. Even if there was such a thing as heaven and hell, why would I need to be Catholic? Why would I need to believe in God as stated in the Bible? Couldn't I make it into heaven just by being a good person? Nooooooo, that would make too much sense! Silly me!

God does not send us to hell--because there is no hell!!!! The idea of having a miserable life and then partying all day in heaven is just a sadistic way of depriving people for joy they experience. Even if there was such a thing as heaven and hell, why would I need to be Catholic? Why would I need to believe in God as stated in the Bible? Couldn't I make it into heaven just by being a good person? Nooooooo, that would make too much sense! Silly me!
Christianity had to adapt to survive the troubles in its infancy. Or at least what they percieved to be troubles. It adapted and it's much easier to survive with more followers. It's easier to convert if it's a religion that is sure of itself. If it allowed other religions, it wouldn't have such conversion power. Therefore you must believe in Him to recieve His glory. With a bit of theft from other religions, then modification to those ideals, it is a very powerful religion indeed, seeing as it is comprised of the majority of the most prominent of religions, or at least parts of their belief structure.

The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Would it be proper to rephrase the question as "If God really loves us and wants us to be saved, and if loving him in return is necessary for salvation, why does he allow us to choose not to love him?"

Christianity had to adapt to survive the troubles in its infancy. Or at least what they percieved to be troubles. It adapted and it's much easier to survive with more followers. It's easier to convert if it's a religion that is sure of itself. If it allowed other religions, it wouldn't have such conversion power. Therefore you must believe in Him to recieve His glory. With a bit of theft from other religions, then modification to those ideals, it is a very powerful religion indeed, seeing as it is comprised of the majority of the most prominent of religions, or at least parts of their belief structure.
I understand that it's very popular, but WHY? There's no way to prove or disprove anything that Christianity claims. Or ANY religion, for that matter. Religion's largest role this day in age is a source of conflict.

It isn't sin that will keep you from heaven, it's lack of progress. Eventually everything goes back into the one, yes even total bastards like Hitler because at some time the Universe will end and everything goes back into the one. Yes people "Forever" only lasts till the end of time.

So be a saint, be a sinner, or come up with another way of denying God. Eventually you'll be absorbed into the one like everything else.

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.

God does condemn to hell. Though it is our own sinful acts which are the reason.

Satan has no power except that which God has granted him. Satan does not force us to sin; we do it most wilfully. The natural man will sin, he is corrupted. His heart, his will, his mind.

Satan has no real control. It is all an illusion. God is the one truely in control.

I do not buy your Manchiean dualistic heresy.

I understand that it's very popular, but WHY? There's no way to prove or disprove anything that Christianity claims. Or ANY religion, for that matter. Religion's largest role this day in age is a source of conflict.
It's popular because it has easy conversion material. If it is similar to your religion, and to survive you must convert (or to gain favor with rich christians) then it is an easy choice. You see your religion, as well as the wealth of other ones that makes it such a strong choice.

I think George Carlin put it well ;) (cleaned slightly):
Religion easily has the greatest lie ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more.
(full script) http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/carlin.html

God does condemn to hell. Though it is our own sinful acts which are the reason.

Satan has no power except that which God has granted him. Satan does not force us to sin; we do it most wilfully. The natural man will sin, he is corrupted. His heart, his will, his mind.

Satan has no real control. It is all an illusion. God is the one truely in control.

I do not buy your Manchiean dualistic heresy.

So why does one choose to sin? Or, more pertinently (I assume), why does one choose not to repent/accept God and so be saved?

So why does one choose to sin? Or, more pertinently (I assume), why does one choose not to repent/accept God and so be saved?

Because man's heart is corrupt, deceitful... Incapable, on its own, from choosing that which is good as towards salvation.

If all the info is direct from God, so to speak, how do we know it's true?

I think that would be faith. I'm not tryin to act like a religous nut, just answering a question.

Also, why was this topic started again?

Okay, let's try something a little less venemous. Sorry - no flame.

Here's my gripe. God doesn't converse with dieectly in any way I can concretely perceive. My mom and dad do. The love of my life does. Even my cat does. But not God. So if God loves me so much then why doesn't he talk to me? The silent treatment is a form of punishment used by some parents. I was baptised when I was a baby. Why am I being punished? In fact, I'll take it a step further.

God has me locked in closet of singularity. There are other people around me who I think I converse and interact with, but even that is just an assumption of reality. As far as God and I are concerned, I'm in the dark about what he wants and he wont tell me himself what I am supposed to be doing to make him happy. Now, in any family on this plane of reality this would be considered an incredible form of neglect and cruelty. So what am I supposed to infer from this this. I am Gods child, and He is my father. But he wont talk to me! How am I supposed to feel about this? Most kids who are neglected by their parents get pretty pissed off. Especially when their brothers and sisters say "well, daddy loves me and talks to me".

So those of you who daddy loves, prove it. How do you really know daddy loves you and you aren't just fooling yourselves? And don't give me that whole bible thing. Lots of our brothers and sisters have other books they claim came from daddy and you still say they're going into the firey basement of eternal punishment. How do you really know? And I mean really know - concretley with irrifutible proof you can hold in your hands and show everyone else. Again - the bible doesn't count. For this arguement it's just a book that someone else wrote and you could be being fooled by it. Where's the hug? Where's the car? Where's the REAL proof?

He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life.


seems kind of unfair of a magnificent benevolent onipotent and omniscient being to expect us, humans, flawed and base creatures to replicate the kind of love that he is able to show. god sounds like kind of a bastard

Because man's heart is corrupt, deceitful... Incapable, on its own, from choosing that which is good as towards salvation.

So how does one obtain salvation?

seems kind of unfair of a magnificent benevolent onipotent and omniscient being to expect us, humans, flawed and base creatures to replicate the kind of love that he is able to show. god sounds like kind of a bastard

A total bastard. Perfect love my ass! If that's perfect love than I'll stick with good old imperfect human love any day.

So how does one obtain salvation?
Supposedly through something as disingenous as asking Jesus to come into your life and THEN being a good person. Just being good apparently doesn't count for shit. But accepting Jesus and being a dick to people for six days then going to church one day out of the week makes it all better.

Would it be proper to rephrase the question as "If God really loves us and wants us to be saved, and if loving him in return is necessary for salvation, why does he allow us to choose not to love him?"

Only if it's also appropriate to say "If God really loves us and wants us to be saved, is it fair for him to kill your family, give you a horrible disease and then say, I was just kidding, come 'ere and give me a hug (And whatevers in your wallet). And by the way if you don't I'm condeming you to even worse stuff after death."

How does the bible, a book written by men, altered by, interpreted by men give even a clue to a being whose very nature is a concept to vast for men to understand?

How do you obtain unyeilding faith in Jesus and become saved when all sources of current reference come from imperfect men?

Am I expected to first put my faith in a preacher man to be telling me the truth about how to obtain my salvation?

OR

Do I discount all available teachings as corrupted by man and found a basis for god and belief in salvation based on my own experiance of our world?

Where do I go for a perfect source of guidlines?

I am as flawed as the next person, and therefore incapable of attaining the perfect love that I am supposed to show, much less the understanding of an omnipotent being. I by my human nature must give all things human attributes in order to relate.

Because man's heart is corrupt, deceitful... Incapable, on its own, from choosing that which is good as towards salvation.

So let's see here...

God created Man... Man is horrendously flawed, and inherently incapable of working up to God's standards... So, God then has to set up a system of hoops that Man must jump through (without a net, apparently) to make up for the shortcomings in His design...

Good job, God!

The original post of this thread mentions that God cannot save us from Hell, because He is seperated from us by our "barrier of sin"...

So, does that mean that Sin is more powerful than God? Is Sin God's form of Kryptonite?

So, then, is God not as omnipotent as believed?

So how does one obtain salvation?

It's not obtained, it's given, through the power of the Holy Spirit.


Supposedly through something as disingenous as asking Jesus to come into your life and THEN being a good person. Just being good apparently doesn't count for shit. But accepting Jesus and being a dick to people for six days then going to church one day out of the week makes it all better.

Incorrect. Neither mouthing words, nor merely "being a good person" will save you. If they were saved, they wouldn't be running around being a "dick to people for six days".

So let's see here...

God created Man... Man is horrendously flawed, and inherently incapable of working up to God's standards... So, God then has to set up a system of hoops that Man must jump through (without a net, apparently) to make up for the shortcomings in His design...

Man is not flawed; Man is corrupt. There's a difference here. A flaw is something built in; a corruption in an aquired aspect.


Good job, God!

Yes, He did a Good Job.


The original post of this thread mentions that God cannot save us from Hell, because He is seperated from us by our "barrier of sin"...

The original poster is wrong. They are a dualist; who believes Satan has power to which God has no control. God can save us from Hell.


So, does that mean that Sin is more powerful than God? Is Sin God's form of Kryptonite?

No, it is not. God is the one who punishes sin. He does so because He is just. He can even use the wicked sinful thoughts and desires of the unbeleivers to carry out His purpose (Note: The Devil in Job; The King of Assyria; The Pharisees; Pontius Pilate). He is not this weak wormy little Spirit the original poster talked about.


So, then, is God not as omnipotent as believed?

Yes, He is omnipotent.

How does the bible, a book written by men, altered by, interpreted by men give even a clue to a being whose very nature is a concept to vast for men to understand?

How do you obtain unyeilding faith in Jesus and become saved when all sources of current reference come from imperfect men?

Am I expected to first put my faith in a preacher man to be telling me the truth about how to obtain my salvation?

OR

Do I discount all available teachings as corrupted by man and found a basis for god and belief in salvation based on my own experiance of our world?You do this one. Joseph Campbell called it following your bliss, and it's one of the finest pieces of self-help/spiritual advice I've ever heard or taken.

Only if it's also appropriate to say "If God really loves us and wants us to be saved, is it fair for him to kill your family, give you a horrible disease and then say, I was just kidding, come 'ere and give me a hug (And whatevers in your wallet). And by the way if you don't I'm condeming you to even worse stuff after death."

I'm not even sure which side you're trying to argue here, so I'll ask again: Is it an appropriate way to rephrase the question?

God is merciful.
God is just.

If God saved no one, He would not be merciful.

If God saved everyone, He would not be just.

God does NOT send us to hell.


.....And you know this because....?

well, Satan wants us to enjoy sin so hell must be a pretty cool place.

Wait, I'm sidetracking. Why would anyone ever believe something based completely off invisibles?

Why would anyone reject something based completely off invisibles? You DO realize that 200 years ago they had no knowledge of infared light... but it was there, wasn't it?

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.


THUMBS UP GOD BOY!!!! holy flame bait batman!!!

It's not obtained, it's given, through the power of the Holy Spirit.


Is there anything a human can do to receive salvation through the Holy Spirit or is it solely God's decision?

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.
The God does not lead us towards hell. If you it life of sin saw and you never dig have and it is saved, at this moment there's a barrier which of sin you seperating of God. If you have without one day the spine or are saved die, then you go because towards hell the God can't saves you if a barrier of sin which you are seperating of him. He wants to hold that everyone of him the manner he loves us, but it can't made important what for them which don't wants it in its life. If you don't love in your life, then Satan and you seize bring the control of you, with hell when you die. When the Satan which you towards hell, the god does not lead. If you dig to have and the Lord Jesus-Christ in your life asks, then it will go with you by your life, and it will help you, and it will love you unconditionally. The god holds them even of everyone, which denies it and to hate it and are the name to curse. Once again, the Satan and the sin do not punish our, the God. The God tests helps our.

I personally believe ‘hell’ just means that you don’t get to live after death. You die that’s it, there is no After Life. Seriously… what else would God do? Sending you down bellow to the fiery pits of 'hell' with a pointy headed red dude poking you in the arse with a pitch folk is just something silly man has come up with… like Santa Clause.

There are two basic principles Ive learned in dealing with Fundies.

1. The religious (nutcase) will only believe that wich adheres closest to his own personal truths.
No amount of evidence short of divinty will change this kind of persons mind.

So even if, in other religious text, particularly the Gospels that were omitted from the Catholic Bible, Jesus clearly states that ALL people enter hell for a period of time, and that ALL people are eventually sent to Heaven...

The religious nutcase will only believe what he wants to...not what he was intended to.

2. The average christian doesnt like to be reminded that Jesus was a man.
Therefore....he had human needs and emotions.

Jesus....occasionally farted.


But seeing as I'm an atheist..I feel the need to quickly ridicule organized religion.

So here goes...

God is dead.
There is a great void in the heavens as empty and hollow as the faith in wich you place in him.

After all...over 100,000 Thailanders are now dead.
Where is God now?

Is there anything a human can do to receive salvation through the Holy Spirit or is it solely God's decision?

God's alone.

The God does not lead us towards hell. If you it life of sin saw and you never dig have and it is saved, at this moment there's a barrier which of sin you seperating of God. If you have without one day the spine or are saved die, then you go because towards hell the God can't saves you if a barrier of sin which you are seperating of him. He wants to hold that everyone of him the manner he loves us, but it can't made important what for them which don't wants it in its life. If you don't love in your life, then Satan and you seize bring the control of you, with hell when you die. When the Satan which you towards hell, the god does not lead. If you dig to have and the Lord Jesus-Christ in your life asks, then it will go with you by your life, and it will help you, and it will love you unconditionally. The god holds them even of everyone, which denies it and to hate it and are the name to curse. Once again, the Satan and the sin do not punish our, the God. The God tests helps our.


That made virtually no sense, grammatically at least. I seriously don't get it.

I don't believe in Hell so I suppose the whole arguement is moot to me...Why am I posting here anyways? Oh well.

I believe in a higher "force", but I believe in no organized religion so yea...good afternoon everyone :D

That is satan's deception. If you take a life of pleasure now, you get an eternity of pain. Take a life of pain now, you get an eternity of pleasure and happiness when you die.

Or, of course... maybe you're just being lied to... and someone is persuading you to hand over control of your life, and a share of your wealth... making your life subject to their own... and then you die, and decompose.

So - you suffer hell on earth, and then you rot.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God.

Not quite. We send ourselves to hell. God has given us a freewill to choose Him or choose evil. If we choose the latter, if we freely decide to reject Him, then we have chosen to send our self to hell.

If you believe in predestination rather than freewill then you must also believe, God sends you to hell. You cannot choose God over evil as it has already been decided for you and there is nothing you can do about it.

Is there anything a human can do to receive salvation through the Holy Spirit or is it solely God's decision?

Yes. You can choose to accept or reject salvation. God has given us the means to salvation, it is up to us accept or reject what he has given us.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Looks like Satan is the first to go into the fire, followed by Death and Hades, and then by all of the mortals whose names are not in the Book of Life. If Satan is already in there, how can he cast the sinners in?

Earlier it describes the fate of those who follow the Beast as being tormented in the presence of G-d and His holy angels forever and ever. So the popular modernistic idea that damnation is being forever cast from the presence of G-d is also an unbiblical heresey. Face it: it is G-d HimSelf Who condemns sinners to the fires of Gehenna, which burn before His throne and in His presence forever. Satan wants to drag as many mortals into his damnation with him as he can, but he is not the One who condemns them.


Between people like you and Grave_n_idle I learn so much :D

Or, of course... maybe you're just being lied to... and someone is persuading you to hand over control of your life, and a share of your wealth... making your life subject to their own... and then you die, and decompose.

So - you suffer hell on earth, and then you rot.
A book Evolution (fiction) by Steven Baxter I just read reminds me of this… it covers the evolution of man … at one point it reaches the evolution of religion at a point homo erectus was competent enough to do thought projection on a non living object.

Religion was invented (the specifics of this instance are not important) but the reason it survived … and with it (if you believe in evolution) people prone to faith in a wild environment had a higher tendency to live.

So essentially religious (or a mind capable of religious thought was propagated through evolution) some of the advantages … a more central point of authority, more unified purpose, and the biggest … zeal … an ability to work yourself into a frenzy over a cause in a group which is a useful skill when fighting other groups, animals.


Anyways crazy stuff to think about … a chemical imbalance being propagated because of a increased survivability.

Fairy tales about Hell, Hades, Gehenna, Sheol, Tartarus, and other such Christian horrors certainly make Christianity the preferred religion for sadomasochists.

A book Evolution (fiction) by Steven Baxter I just read reminds me of this… it covers the evolution of man … at one point it reaches the evolution of religion at a point homo erectus was competent enough to do thought projection on a non living object.

Religion was invented (the specifics of this instance are not important) but the reason it survived … and with it (if you believe in evolution) people prone to faith in a wild environment had a higher tendency to live.

So essentially religious (or a mind capable of religious thought was propagated through evolution) some of the advantages … a more central point of authority, more unified purpose, and the biggest … zeal … an ability to work yourself into a frenzy over a cause in a group which is a useful skill when fighting other groups, animals.


Anyways crazy stuff to think about … a chemical imbalance being propagated because of a increased survivability.

Makes perfect sense to me, it would explain why so many religions have the same key elements.

A creation myth - to answer the 'where do I come from' questions.
A personal relationship with a powerful force - to give life a meaning and direction... stops people just 'giving in' when it gets tough.
Elementalism - many and various ways of explaining the elemental world around us, or of using it symbolically... e.g. Burning Bush = God, or Baptism = water = ability to clean physicaly AND spiritually.

Also exlains the common root of a garden, with an elemental evil force and an elemental good force.

That would mark the transition from a hunter/gatherer society (which could ONLY have an oral tradition, since they would have no 'specialisation of roles) to a basic agrarian society - which can actually stop wandering long enough for individuals to assume civilised roles - e.g. potter, storyteller/priest.

The hunter/gatehrer society carries stories of it's genesis into the agrarian society, which idealises the hunter/gatherer life - a life in a garden with ample food. The 'evil' in the story is anthropomorphisation of the evils of the hunter/gatehrer lifestyle... e.g. the serpent (a very real threat when you travel from waterhole to waterhole).

Hmmm, this has given me some interesting material to work with... :)

God's alone.

OK, then. Seems a little unfair, but what the hey, it means I no longer have to worry about whether He exists or not.

Yes. You can choose to accept or reject salvation. God has given us the means to salvation, it is up to us accept or reject what he has given us.

So why do some people choose to reject salvation?

[QUOTE=ClemsonTigers]God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. QUOTE]
That denies the all-powerful nature of God... whoops

Makes perfect sense to me, it would explain why so many religions have the same key elements.

A creation myth - to answer the 'where do I come from' questions.
A personal relationship with a powerful force - to give life a meaning and direction... stops people just 'giving in' when it gets tough.
Elementalism - many and various ways of explaining the elemental world around us, or of using it symbolically... e.g. Burning Bush = God, or Baptism = water = ability to clean physicaly AND spiritually.

Also exlains the common root of a garden, with an elemental evil force and an elemental good force.

That would mark the transition from a hunter/gatherer society (which could ONLY have an oral tradition, since they would have no 'specialisation of roles) to a basic agrarian society - which can actually stop wandering long enough for individuals to assume civilised roles - e.g. potter, storyteller/priest.

The hunter/gatehrer society carries stories of it's genesis into the agrarian society, which idealises the hunter/gatherer life - a life in a garden with ample food. The 'evil' in the story is anthropomorphisation of the evils of the hunter/gatehrer lifestyle... e.g. the serpent (a very real threat when you travel from waterhole to waterhole).

Hmmm, this has given me some interesting material to work with... :)


Yeah me too ... my mind ran with that one (though actualy religion was a very small part about it I was still like wow) deffinaty a worthwile read ... baxter always is

There may be a choice but he hasn't given us all the information needed to make an informed decision. Thats just bad manners.

OK, then. Seems a little unfair, but what the hey, it means I no longer have to worry about whether He exists or not.

1. Why does it seem unfair?

2. Is not fairness that which is in accordance with relative merit and significance?

3. If so, would not God's choice alone in the matter, being the sovereign of all, be the absolute principle of fairness?


Yes. You can choose to accept or reject salvation. God has given us the means to salvation, it is up to us accept or reject what he has given us.

There's no "accept" or "reject". The choice is presented, and there is only acceptance. Rejection occured at the fall.

We can, of couse, "choose"... However, man is not a neutral. We are fallen creatures, and follow our own wills; which by nature, since the fall, is to sin, and reject God.

We have the capability to choose... Yes, we have a will capable of making choices when presented to us, and the options are before us. However, while we "can" we do not want to accept, by nature, we only want to reject God. As such, we are capable, but unable, in our nature state after the fall, to accept God's saving power... It is God, who gives us the Holy Spirit, by which we are made able to make the choice not to reject, and to accept God's gift of salvation, without the power given, we would still will that which is in rejection of God.

Our wills are functional, but our heart is evil, and bent to that which is evil, and sin. And as such our wills, by nature, since the fall, are corrupted to will that which is opposing to God.

There may be a choice but he hasn't given us all the information needed to make an informed decision. Thats just bad manners.

G-d judges our lives in part based upon our level of revelation. So don't worry about the people who died before Jesus was born, or who never heard of him, or who never heard "the true Gospel, rightly divided", but only heard of him at the point of a Conquistador's sword, or somesuch. G-d knows everyone's heart, everyone's circumstances, and everyone's level of having received His truths, and G-d judges fairly, accordingly.

I would look it up, but you can do so yourself if you really care, and I have reason to believe I may be banned soon.

1. Why does it seem unfair?

2. Is not fairness that which is in accordance with relative merit and significance?

3. If so, would not God's choice alone in the matter, being the sovereign of all, be the absolute principle of fairness?


Maybe I misinterpreted you. I read you as saying that whether we are saved or damned lay entirely at God's discretion, regardless of our choices on Earth. Hence it seemed unfair since we are powerless to change the outcome. If this is incorrect please put me straight.

So why do some people choose to reject salvation?

I don't know. You will have to ask them.

So why do some people choose to reject salvation?

Because all the other 'gods' have presented us with the same choice.

G-d

Is there some reason you can not say or type the word God? Honest question. I am curious and won't even reply to your answer. Thanks.

There may be a choice but he hasn't given us all the information needed to make an informed decision. Thats just bad manners.

Maybe you haven't been listening to Him. That is bad manners.

God does NOT send us to hell. If you live a life of sin and you never repent and get saved, then there's a barrier of sin seperating you from God. If you die without ever repenting or getting saved, then you go to hell because God can't save you if there is a barrier of sin seperating you from Him. He wants everyone to love Him the way that He loves us, but He can't do anything for those who don't want Him in His life. If you don't have Him in your life, then satan grabs control of you, and brings you to hell when you die.

It is satan that sends you to hell, not God. If you repent and ask the Lord Jesus Christ into your life, then He will walk with you throughout your life, and He will help you, and He will love you unconditionally. God loves everyone, even those who deny Him and hate Him and curse His name.

Once again, satan and sin punish us, not God. God tries to help us.
Not according to the all-wise and all-knowing Jack Chick.
Looks like you're going to Hell as well!

Is there some reason you can not say or type the word God? Honest question. I am curious and won't even reply to your answer. Thanks.

I used to write like that, it was something I was taught at school. Even when I decided I didn't believe in god or agree with any religion I found it hard to write the full name.. odd ain't it.. I think it comes from not uttering gods name. I appologise if I am wrong, but that is how it was explained to me as a kid.