NationStates Jolt Archive

Ask me anything about the Bible. Not the Christian one, I'm Jewish so I don't know that one. Anyway, ask anything you like, ask explinations, translations, or you can even ask for the Hebrew for certain words or phrases, or whatever else.. Who's first?

Ask me anything about the Bible. Not the Christian one, I'm Jewish so I don't know that one. Anyway, ask anything you like, ask explinations, translations, or you can even ask for the Hebrew for certain words or phrases, or whatever else.. Who's first?

Who is responsible for the census David took...God or Satan?

Who is responsible for the census David took...God or Satan?

Would you mind giving me a location of where you see this census so I can look it up?

Would you mind giving me a location of where you see this census so I can look it up?
i can see we have a real scholar here... ask me anything as long as you tell me where the answer is... lol

i can see we have a real scholar here... ask me anything as long as you tell me where the answer is... lol

No, I merely wanted to know the location of the census so I can look up what the Bible says. Anyway, I think I found it. It was neither God nor the Satan that caused David to census. The problem with David counting is that by counting, one is ascribing a finite value to a Jew, a number, a physical reality. In fact, the Jewish people are spiritually infinite, and should not be numbered and defined in the finite sense. Even when the Jews needed to be counted, such as the census described in the Book of Numbers, it was done indirectly, whereby each person contributed a coin and the coins were counted.

Who's next?

No, I merely wanted to know the location of the census so I can look up what the Bible says. Anyway, I think I found it. It was neither God nor the Satan that caused David to census. The problem with David counting is that by counting, one is ascribing a finite value to a Jew, a number, a physical reality. In fact, the Jewish people are spiritually infinite, and should not be numbered and defined in the finite sense. Even when the Jews needed to be counted, such as the census described in the Book of Numbers, it was done indirectly, whereby each person contributed a coin and the coins were counted.

Who's next?

Thats not what it says in the Bible...in one passage God orders David to take a census , then God gets mad and smites the Jews and in another passage it says Satan incited David to take the census , then God gets mad and smites the Jews. Which seem to me to be two contradictory accounts of the same event

What is the correct interpretation of the "Suffering Servant" in Isaiah? It's Chapter 52, verse 13 through 53:12 in the standard Christian chapter: verse divisions.

Where is it in the Bible lovely benevolent God says it's a sin to cut the hair from the temple of your head, and that women having their periods are unclean, and that it's ok to own slaves as long as they come from a different country from your own?

"Let US make man after OUR image, after OUR likeness" WHAT?

What is the correct interpretation of the "Suffering Servant" in Isaiah? It's Chapter 52, verse 13 through 53:12 in the standard Christian chapter: verse divisions.

Well according to Christians this talks about Jesus who they say suffered on a cross, but in other places in Isaiah refer to the nation of Israel themselves, whom have certainly suffered throught the years. It's important to note that

53:10 Though the Lord desired to crush him and make him ill,

once restitution is made,

he will see descendants and enjoy long life

Jesus didn't have any children, and died when he was 33. So it couldn't have been talking about him.

Where can I pick up some of that thin gold edged paper the Bibles written on ?

Jesus didn't have any children, and died when he was 33. So it couldn't have been talking about him.

Died and rose. And then started the Christian Church. Those followers are the children, in the same way that I am a spiritual descendent of Abraham but not a biological one.

Don't confuse biology and spirituality.

Where can I pick up some of that thin gold edged paper the Bibles written on ?
What are you going to use it for? writing dirty letters to me?

What is the average retail value of a leather bound bible in Luxemburg?

What are you going to use it for? writing dirty letters to me?

lmao.......:-X

What is the average retail value of a leather bound bible in Luxemburg?
legal or black market?

lmao.......:-X
What that not an appropreate use for bible paper?

Where is it in the Bible lovely benevolent God says it's a sin to cut the hair from the temple of your head, and that women having their periods are unclean, and that it's ok to own slaves as long as they come from a different country from your own?

1. The Nazarite: A Nazarite is a person who dedicates himself, or herself, to Hashem "by taking a Nazarite vow of abstinence for the sake of God." (Numbers 6:2). The Hebrew word is "Nazir," from the root word "Lehazir," which means to refrain or restrain from something. The Nazarite refrains from drinking wine and does not cut the hair of his head, nor contaminate himself to any dead person, in order to sanctify himself to God until the completion of the term of his vow, when he offers to God and shaves his head at the Temple, placing his hair on the Altar, and is blessed by the Kohen; it is all Written in Numbers 6:1-27. This restraint is likened with his heightened state of Holiness.

2. The term "unclean" is merely a mistranslation of the term impure. So what's impure? It's when there's something pure somewhere, then that pureness "goes bye bye" and you're left with something Tomeh, which means impure. So when a woman has her period she has inside of her something holy, something that can become a living breathing human being. When she has her period (I'm not sure the exact technicalities of how that works) that pureness leaves her, making her temporarily tomeh. When a woman gives birth she is also impure, because she had a pure and holy baby inside of her, and it left. If she gives birth to a male child it takes her a week to regain purity, but if she gives birth to a female child it takes two weeks (remember female children participate in the Godly act of creation through childbirth, that's why they're more holy).

3. And finally slaves. When I say slaves, what probably comes to your mind are whippings, and hard labor, and little food, etc. But that is not the case in Judaism. In Judiasm "a slave" has many rights, and is in some cases treated even better then the "owner"! For example, if the owner is poor and has only one blacket, it goes to the slave by default. Same with beds, and food. So how and why does one become a slave? If someone has unusually high debts that they cannot pay off, they may sell themselves into slavery. First they will get some money from whoever purchased them and then they will work for a set number of years to earn the money to repay their debts. (In Genesis, was Abraham's slave Eliezer treated badly?) Also, every 50 years on the Jewish calendar is what's known as the "Jubilee year" in which all slaves are set free, and their "master" or a different one may repurchase him if he still has debts (thus helping the slave with money).

Who's next?

legal or black market?
Legal. Retail. Catholic version.

Oy ... okie ... someone who knows what they're talking about should answer these ...


Who is responsible for the census David took...God or Satan?


David is responsible. Joab warned David not to take the census because an adversary was among them and a census was a means of counting military might. To take a count of military might while a spy was among them was just a stupid idea, but David did it anyway.


What is the correct interpretation of the "Suffering Servant" in Isaiah? It's Chapter 52, verse 13 through 53:12


Isaiah 52 is a continuation of 51 and is about the Israeli nation (read: Jews). The "suffering servant" is the entirety of the Jewish people.

Where is it in the Bible lovely benevolent God
Mistake #1: Nowhere does Tanakh say God is always lovely and benevolent.

says it's a sin to cut the hair from the temple of your head
Leviticus 21:5

that women having their periods are unclean
Leviticus 15:19
Leviticus 20:18

own slaves as long as they come from a different country from your own?
It doesn't, but special conditions were set if you owned a slave who was your fellow Israelite. Leviticus 25:44-46 There are rules of slavery all throughout Torah and Jesus didn't end it. In Corinthians, Galatians, and Colossians the term "bonded or free" shows up a lot.

"Let US make man after OUR image, after OUR likeness" WHAT?
God was speaking to the animals. God does not have a body. God is above worldly things such as that, so in order to make us in God's image, God gave us a piece of the Divine nature and these flesh casings (like the animals) to live in.

Legal. Retail. Catholic version.
Which

I assume standard KJV but maybe NKJV ?

"Let US make man after OUR image, after OUR likeness" WHAT?
French Torah commentator, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki (1040-1105) (also known by the hebrew acronym Rashi) said about this verse:

The humility of the Holy One, Blessed be He we learn from here. Since man is in the likeness of the angels and they woud be jealous of him [see also Pirkei De R'Eliezer], for that reason He consulted them. [God consulted the angels so that they should not be jealous. The Torah mentions this fact to teach us about God's humility]. And when He judges the kings he consults his retinue, so we have found regarding Ahab, king of Israel, that the prophet Micah said to him "I have seen the Lord sitting upon his throne with the entire host of heavens sitting next to Him at His right and at His left. Now are there right and left before him? [ie. does he have a right and left?] [Rashi appears to be speaking of how the verse can speak of "His right" and "His left" when God is not limited by the dimensions of space. In his commentary to the verse in Kings he writes V'Chi Yesh S'MohEl L'Mah-ah-la, "Is there left above? Does it not say "The right hand of The Lord is lofty, the right hand of the Lord performs mightily?"]. But {the verse means that} these {memebrs of the heavenly host} tend to the right, {arguing} for innocence [...]

In Hebrew, the word for King is Melech. It comes from the root which means to "unite" and to "consult." This is the basis for the idea of parliamentary monarchy.

And dont' forget that when it actually happened, it said "And God created..."

Oy ... okie ... someone who knows what they're talking about should answer these ...



David is responsible. Joab warned David not to take the census because an adversary was among them and a census was a means of counting military might. To take a count of military might while a spy was among them was just a stupid idea, but David did it anyway.



Isaiah 52 is a continuation of 51 and is about the Israeli nation (read: Jews). The "suffering servant" is the entirety of the Jewish people.


Mistake #1: Nowhere does Tanakh say God is always lovely and benevolent.


Leviticus 21:5


Leviticus 15:19
Leviticus 20:18


It doesn't, but special conditions were set if you owned a slave who was your fellow Israelite. Leviticus 25:44-46 There are rules of slavery all throughout Torah and Jesus didn't end it. In Corinthians, Galatians, and Colossians the term "bonded or free" shows up a lot.


God was speaking to the animals. God does not have a body. God is above worldly things such as that, so in order to make us in God's image, God gave us a piece of the Divine nature and these flesh casings (like the animals) to live in.

Uhh dude, this is my thread, I appreciate your help and all, but I'm answering the questions here, ok?

Uhh dude, this is my thread, I appreciate your help and all, but I'm answering the questions here, ok?


well not really......you havent told me where i can get that thin, gold edged paper at

What that not an appropreate use for bible paper?

Actually for official Torah scrolls they have to be made out of a certain parchment (animal skin), not just plain paper. Anyway, interesting story: When God told Moses he had to write on this type of parchment with this type of ink he, nor any Jew, had any idea how that could be done! They were used to Egypt, which wrote on Papyrus and on the sides of pyramids and builds. So God had to explain how to do it.

Who's next?

Mistake #1: Nowhere does Tanakh say God is always lovely and benevolent.

Psalm 91:14-16
"Because he loves me," says the LORD , "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Psalm 86:15
"But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness."

Those are just a few I remembered off the top of my head. Christians surely believe God to be all-good. I'm not sure what the Jewish answer here is. It'd be cool to see the differences. Like that thread you started a few months ago, Keru, with all the questions. *sigh* Those were the days.

God was speaking to the animals. God does not have a body. God is above worldly things such as that, so in order to make us in God's image, God gave us a piece of the Divine nature and these flesh casings (like the animals) to live in.Seriously? I've always taken it as the Trinity. I guess I'm wrong with that. Jews don't believe in the Trinity, do they? Or do they replace Jesus with the as-yet-unnamed Messiah?

Actually for official Torah scrolls they have to be made out of a certain parchment (animal skin), not just plain paper. Anyway, interesting story: When God told Moses he had to write on this type of parchment with this type of ink he, nor any Jew, had any idea how that could be done! They were used to Egypt, which wrote on Papyrus and on the sides of pyramids and builds. So God had to explain how to do it.

Who's next?
She was talking about the gold edged paper they use in print to day

So my comment is correct - Bible paper

Did Cain's wife come from?

Psalm 91:14-16
"Because he loves me," says the LORD , "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Psalm 86:15
"But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness."

Those are just a few I remembered off the top of my head. Christians surely believe God to be all-good. I'm not sure what the Jewish answer here is. It'd be cool to see the differences. Like that thread you started a few months ago, Keru, with all the questions. *sigh* Those were the days.

Seriously? I've always taken it as the Trinity. I guess I'm wrong with that. Jews don't believe in the Trinity, do they? Or do they replace Jesus with the as-yet-unnamed Messiah?

I've already addressed who he was talking to here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=7823178&postcount=22) .

Well according to Christians this talks about Jesus who they say suffered on a cross, but in other places in Isaiah refer to the nation of Israel themselves, whom have certainly suffered throught the years. It's important to note that



Jesus didn't have any children, and died when he was 33. So it couldn't have been talking about him.

Y'shua did not have any children that were described in the Vulgate, but in some of the Books that the Romans burned, he did. Anyway I am posting as I read, so it may have been said, but this is not about the Brit Hadassah (NT).

Plus, the reference to "restitution" could certainly refer to the Christian view of the ressurection of all flesh.

Psalm 91:14-16
"Because he loves me," says the LORD , "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him. With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation."

Psalm 86:15
"But you, O Lord, are a compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness."

Nice, but the Tehillim (psalms) are poetry, not canon.

Seriously? I've always taken it as the Trinity. I guess I'm wrong with that. Jews don't believe in the Trinity, do they? Or do they replace Jesus with the as-yet-unnamed Messiah?

Jews do not believe in the Trinity. Hear, O Israel, God is One.

Uhh dude, this is my thread, I appreciate your help and all, but I'm answering the questions here, ok?

Well try answering them right, mmkay?

[Where] Did Cain's wife come from?

Cain and Abel were both born with twin sisters.
King David writes (Psalms 89:3), "The world was built with kindness." Our sages interpreted this to mean that G-d kindly allowed Cain to wed his sister in order for humankind to be founded.
Source: Rashi on Leviticus 20:17

French Torah commentator, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki (1040-1105) (also known by the hebrew acronym Rashi) said about this verse:


Whoa! Rashi? I wouldn't use Rashi as a source. Rashi's opinions, while nice, assumes the student is already familiar with midrash. I'm guessing 2, maybe 3, people on this forum even know what the word means.

Besides, his own grandson, Rabbenu Tam, the Tosafot, complete disagrees with Rashi's findings of the consultation of Angels in the creation on man.

Did Cain's wife come from?

From the land of Nod, east of Eden.

1. The Nazarite: A Nazarite is a person who dedicates himself, or herself, to Hashem "by taking a Nazarite vow of abstinence for the sake of God." (Numbers 6:2). The Hebrew word is "Nazir," from the root word "Lehazir," which means to refrain or restrain from something. The Nazarite refrains from drinking wine and does not cut the hair of his head, nor contaminate himself to any dead person, in order to sanctify himself to God until the completion of the term of his vow, when he offers to God and shaves his head at the Temple, placing his hair on the Altar, and is blessed by the Kohen; it is all Written in Numbers 6:1-27. This restraint is likened with his heightened state of Holiness.

2. The term "unclean" is merely a mistranslation of the term impure. So what's impure? It's when there's something pure somewhere, then that pureness "goes bye bye" and you're left with something Tomeh, which means impure. So when a woman has her period she has inside of her something holy, something that can become a living breathing human being. When she has her period (I'm not sure the exact technicalities of how that works) that pureness leaves her, making her temporarily tomeh. When a woman gives birth she is also impure, because she had a pure and holy baby inside of her, and it left. If she gives birth to a male child it takes her a week to regain purity, but if she gives birth to a female child it takes two weeks (remember female children participate in the Godly act of creation through childbirth, that's why they're more holy).

3. And finally slaves. When I say slaves, what probably comes to your mind are whippings, and hard labor, and little food, etc. But that is not the case in Judaism. In Judiasm "a slave" has many rights, and is in some cases treated even better then the "owner"! For example, if the owner is poor and has only one blacket, it goes to the slave by default. Same with beds, and food. So how and why does one become a slave? If someone has unusually high debts that they cannot pay off, they may sell themselves into slavery. First they will get some money from whoever purchased them and then they will work for a set number of years to earn the money to repay their debts. (In Genesis, was Abraham's slave Eliezer treated badly?) Also, every 50 years on the Jewish calendar is what's known as the "Jubilee year" in which all slaves are set free, and their "master" or a different one may repurchase him if he still has debts (thus helping the slave with money).

Who's next?

ME! :)

1) isn't Jubilee every seven years?

2) in Jubilee all debts are forgiven, so the slave cannot still have any.

3) in the Bible, Hebrews may take slaves in war, which are not freed in Jubilee.

Nice, but the Tehillim (psalms) are poetry, not canon.


And The Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed: 'The Lord, Lord, G-d, merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth; keeping mercy unto the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin; and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and unto the fourth generation.' And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.

Exodus 34:6-8

Why is it that God blessed Jacob and not Esau? Although Jacob cheated his brother out of his birthright? Doesn't it seem unfair?

And concerning Abraham nearly killing his son on the altar. What was it about?

I'm asking this on what Jewish scholars think concerning this topics.

ME! :)

1) isn't Jubilee every seven years?

2) in Jubilee all debts are forgiven, so the slave cannot still have any.

3) in the Bible, Hebrews may take slaves in war, which are not freed in Jubilee.

10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof; it shall be a jubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.

A jubilee shall that fiftieth year be unto you; ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of the undressed vines.
~Leviticus 25:10
the word for Jubilee is ha-yovel, so don't go saying that I got the word wrong ;).

And slaves do have possessions, as I mentioned earlier.

Finally, give me a Biblical source of a slave not being set free.

Exodus 34:6-8

It doesn't say "always". The mistake made by the questor was the implication that Tanakh held God to always be "lovely and benevolent". This is not the case.

God is as God does. It is simple as that. Sometimes God is benevolent, sometimes God is angry. There are only three "always" when it comes to God: Merciful, Just, and One. The problems kick in when we try to wrap our human minds around the concept of "Mercy". We think we know what it means for us, but then we see someone suffering and wonder how a "Merciful" God can do such things.

Well ... God's mercy is infinite and pure ... even if it is sometimes beyond our understanding.

God was speaking to the animals. God does not have a body. God is above worldly things such as that, so in order to make us in God's image, God gave us a piece of the Divine nature and these flesh casings (like the animals) to live in.

According to your interpetation, the aninals as well as god had a hand in our creation, according Romish, the angels are our co-creators with God but I see it fifferent God is not addressing the animals or the angels but this portain of Genesis poem is a remnant of the old Hebrew-pagan creation account (remember the hebrews were not always monotheist) and YHWH is talking to the other God, the Shadow of YHWH.

Which

I assume standard KJV but maybe NKJV ?

No, neither of those is the Roman Catholic version.

Why is it that God blessed Jacob and not Esau? Although Jacob cheated his brother out of his birthright? Doesn't it seem unfair?

And concerning Abraham nearly killing his son on the altar. What was it about?

I'm asking this on what Jewish scholars think concerning this topics.

1. And Esau said unto his father: 'Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me also, O my father.' And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept. And Isaac his father answered and said unto him: Behold, of the fat places of the earth shall be thy dwelling, and of the dew of heaven from above; And by thy sword shalt thou live, and thou shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt break loose, that thou shalt shake his yoke from off thy neck. And Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing wherewith his father blessed him. And Esau said in his heart: 'Let the days of mourning for my father be at hand; then will I slay my brother Jacob.' ~Genesis: 27:38-41
So he did get a blessing. According to Rashi, the fatness of the earth is referring to "Italy of Greece." This city is described in the Talmud, in Megillah 6b as "the great city of Greece." and may be a reference to a city in Southern Italy which was mostly colonized by the Greeks during the era of the First Temple. It remained under Greek control for about three centuries. The Roman name for this area was Magna Graecia - "Great Greece"

2. And it came to pass after these things, that G-d did prove Abraham, and said unto him: 'Abraham'; and he said: 'Here am I.' And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.' And Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he cleaved the wood for the burnt-offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which G-d had told him. On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
And Abraham said unto his young men: 'Abide ye here with the ass, and I and the lad will go yonder; and we will worship, and come back to you.' And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spoke unto Abraham his father, and said: 'My father.' And he said: 'Here am I, my son.' And he said: 'Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?' And Abraham said: 'G-d will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt-offering, my son.' So they went both of them together. And they came to the place which G-d had told him of; and Abraham built the altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of HaShem called unto him out of heaven, and said: 'Abraham, Abraham.' And he said: 'Here am I.' And he said: 'Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him; for now I know that thou art a G-d-fearing man, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from Me.' And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt-offering in the stead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Ado-nai-yireh ("The Lord sees [does see, has seen, will see, etc]); as it is said to this day: 'In the mount where HaShem is seen.' And the angel of HaShem called unto Abraham a second time out of heaven, and said: 'By Myself have I sworn, saith HaShem, because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast hearkened to My voice.' So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beer-sheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba.
~Genesis 22:1-19

The bible says that they went both of them together. Rashi comments that they went with "an equal heart" ie. the same enthusiam. Isaac understood that he is about to sacraficed for God, and yet, he was as enthusiastic to follow what God had said as Abraham, who even woke up early in the morning. (Sources: Bereishis Rabbah 56:4; Targum Yerusahlmi)

1) G-d is beyond male and female and beyond one and infinitely many; although properly, respectfully speaking, G-d is refered to as unique and male.

OR

2) G-d was using the "Royal 'We' ".

So he did get a blessing. According to Rashi, the fatness of the earth is referring to "Italy of Greece." This city is described in the Talmud, in Megillah 6b as "the great city of Greece." and may be a reference to a city in Southern Italy which was mostly colonized by the Greeks during the era of the First Temple. It remained under Greek control for about three centuries. The Roman name for this area was Magna Graecia - "Great Greece"

And do not forget that Esau had so little faith that G-d would uphold him that he sold his birthright for food. He was unworthy of the greater blessing.

:D ...just butting in here... :D

Why is it that God blessed Jacob and not Esau? Although Jacob cheated his brother out of his birthright? Doesn't it seem unfair?

And concerning Abraham nearly killing his son on the altar. What was it about?

I'm asking this on what Jewish scholars think concerning this topics.


God didn't. I know there's a passage in Romans that states God hated Esau, but such is not the case. Leaving off NT referrencing, we find that Jacob bought Esau's birthright fairly (gen 25:27-34) and deceived Isaac into blessing him (gen 27). Esau did whine quite a bit about it, though, and because of it, the Israelites and Edomites were fighting for centuries.

The blessing of the father was an important right of passage and not one to be taken lightly. Every father who fulfills the mitzvot of brit milah is granted the ability to bless his son - but only one and only once. Once this blessing is given, even if it is done so out of deception, it cannot be taken away nor can it be transferred. That's deep into mysticism, though, and I'll not bore you with the details. But I will say this, Jacob (the younger) would have gotten the blessing anyway.

Promis lineage always skips the first born son:

http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/RTOT/CH2/FIRST.JPG

As for Abraham and his son, well ... it was a test. Abraham was the most beloved of God and requested to see just how far Abraham would take it. After all, Abraham is the father of many, many nations ... Jews, Muslims, Edomites, etc etc. Sometimes a father must be willing to go to great lengths to ensure their son's place in the world.

Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham, but Isaac came from Abraham's beloved Sarah. So the choice was clear. Although, not really clear, many scholars believe Ishmael was the one led up the mountain to be sacrificed. It's a tricky issue.

1) G-d is beyond male and female and beyond one and infinitely many; although properly, respectfully speaking, G-d is refered to as unique and male.

OR

2) G-d was using the "Royal 'We' ".

God is one in that he is one being. As it says "I am the Lord your God, there is none else." The Bible says "He" so we can understand it.

According to your interpetation, the aninals as well as god had a hand in our creation, according Romish, the angels are our co-creators with God but I see it fifferent God is not addressing the animals or the angels but this portain of Genesis poem is a remnant of the old Hebrew-pagan creation account (remember the hebrews were not always monotheist) and YHWH is talking to the other God, the Shadow of YHWH.

The animals had no hand in our creation, God didn't consult anyone, God was merely talking to the animals. I can ask my children, "What shall we do today?" but the final decision will be up to me and me alone.

God didn't. I know there's a passage in Romans that states God hated Esau, but such is not the case. Leaving off NT referrencing, we find that Jacob bought Esau's birthright fairly (gen 25:27-34) and deceived Isaac into blessing him (gen 27). Esau did whine quite a bit about it, though, and because of it, the Israelites and Edomites were fighting for centuries.

The blessing of the father was an important right of passage and not one to be taken lightly. Every father who fulfills the mitzvot of brit milah is granted the ability to bless his son - but only one and only once. Once this blessing is given, even if it is done so out of deception, it cannot be taken away nor can it be transferred. That's deep into mysticism, though, and I'll not bore you with the details. But I will say this, Jacob (the younger) would have gotten the blessing anyway.

Promis lineage always skips the first born son:

http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/RTOT/CH2/FIRST.JPG

As for Abraham and his son, well ... it was a test. Abraham was the most beloved of God and requested to see just how far Abraham would take it. After all, Abraham is the father of many, many nations ... Jews, Muslims, Edomites, etc etc. Sometimes a father must be willing to go to great lengths to ensure their son's place in the world.

Ishmael was the first born son of Abraham, but Isaac came from Abraham's beloved Sarah. So the choice was clear. Although, not really clear, many scholars believe Ishmael was the one led up the mountain to be sacrificed. It's a tricky issue.

Again, this is my thread, please do not post your answers. You can feel free to post your own thread if you so choose, but please stay out of mine. :)

The animals had no hand in our creation, God didn't consult anyone, God was merely talking to the animals. I can ask my children, "What shall we do today?" but the final decision will be up to me and me alone.
As I mentioned before, he was talking to the angels.

Again, this is my thread, please do not post your answers. You can feel free to post your own thread if you so choose, but please stay out of mine. :)

When you answer correctly, I will leave your thread, but your answers are incomplete and incorrect. Everyone here knows I am a Rabbi, studied at Hebrew University, and am intimately familiar with Tanakh.

I'm not sure what you're doing, but giving incorrect answers concerning important questions is not a good thing.

Who are the authors of the Torah, Nevi'im, and the Kethuvim?

As I mentioned before, he was talking to the angels.

But you're wrong. God didn't consult the Angels. That's why they got so angry. Rashi has been debunked time and time again on this point - even by his own grandson.

Ask me anything about the Bible. Not the Christian one, I'm Jewish so I don't know that one. Anyway, ask anything you like, ask explinations, translations, or you can even ask for the Hebrew for certain words or phrases, or whatever else.. Who's first?

What was the problem with Cain's offering? He worked hard and offered the "fruit" of his labor. Why was his offering unacceptable?

Who are the authors of the Torah, Nevi'im, and the Kethuvim?

Generally accepted authorship:

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Joshua = Joshua - 1350 B.C.
Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel = Samuel / Nathan / Gad - 1000 - 900 B.C.
1 Kings, 2 Kings = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah = Ezra - 450 B.C.
Esther = Mordecai - 400 B.C.
Job = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Psalms = several different authors, mostly David - 1000 - 400 B.C.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon = Solomon - 900 B.C.
Isaiah = Isaiah - 700 B.C.
Jeremiah, Lamentations = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
Ezekiel = Ezekiel - 550 B.C.
Daniel = Daniel - 550 B.C.
Hosea = Hosea - 750 B.C.
Joel = Joel - 850 B.C.
Amos = Amos - 750 B.C.
Obadiah = Obadiah - 600 B.C.
Jonah = Jonah - 700 B.C.
Micah = Micah - 700 B.C.
Nahum = Nahum - 650 B.C.
Habakkuk = Habakkuk - 600 B.C.
Zephaniah = Zephaniah - 650 B.C.
Haggai = Haggai - 520 B.C.
Zechariah = Zechariah - 500 B.C.
Malachi = Malachi - 430 B.C.

What was the problem with Cain's offering? He worked hard and offered the "fruit" of his labor. Why was his offering unacceptable?

Abel "brought fat portions from some of the firstborn." He offered some of what came first, as opposed to waiting until an animal had plenty of offspring (and the oldest were reproducing themselves) and then sacrificing one of the youngest, and he offered the choicest parts. Abel was clearly giving the best of what he had to God. Cain, on the other hand, brought "some of the fruits of the soil," which were not necessarily the best crops - they may have been damaged and/or been what Cain considered "extra" or "leftover."

Generally accepted authorship:

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Joshua = Joshua - 1350 B.C.
Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel = Samuel / Nathan / Gad - 1000 - 900 B.C.
1 Kings, 2 Kings = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah = Ezra - 450 B.C.
Esther = Mordecai - 400 B.C.
Job = Moses - 1400 B.C.
Psalms = several different authors, mostly David - 1000 - 400 B.C.
Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon = Solomon - 900 B.C.
Isaiah = Isaiah - 700 B.C.
Jeremiah, Lamentations = Jeremiah - 600 B.C.
Ezekiel = Ezekiel - 550 B.C.
Daniel = Daniel - 550 B.C.
Hosea = Hosea - 750 B.C.
Joel = Joel - 850 B.C.
Amos = Amos - 750 B.C.
Obadiah = Obadiah - 600 B.C.
Jonah = Jonah - 700 B.C.
Micah = Micah - 700 B.C.
Nahum = Nahum - 650 B.C.
Habakkuk = Habakkuk - 600 B.C.
Zephaniah = Zephaniah - 650 B.C.
Haggai = Haggai - 520 B.C.
Zechariah = Zechariah - 500 B.C.
Malachi = Malachi - 430 B.C.


From this I see, you are clearly not an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi and have no concept of mesorah.

Since I am not getting to answer any questions, and some guy posing as a rabbi is falsly trying to so. I would like to politely ask that this thread be deleated. Thank you.

Generally accepted authorship:

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.


Yes, this is the traditional answer. But, focusing just on the Torah, how does the single authorship theory (Moses) account for the duplicated stories (such as the two creation stories in Genesis) and the differing names for God (the Hebrew word Elohim, usually translated "God;" and God's four-lettered name Y-H-W-H, usually translated "Lord"), or the changes in writting style and grammar? Also, how did Moses write of his own death?

10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout the land unto all the inhabitants thereof; it shall be a fwjubilee unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family.


~Leviticus 25:10
the word for Jubilee is ha-yovel, so don't go saying that I got the word wrong ;).

And slaves do have possessions, as I mentioned earlier.

Finally, give me a Biblical source of a slave not being set free.

1) Sorry. I just looked it up in an online KJV. Apparently some Christian versions refer to the year described in Deut 15 as the Jubilee, but in the KJV I referenced it simply refers to it as "the year of cancelling debts". Out of curiosity, what is it properly refered to as?

And in that year, according to what I just read, all hebrew slaves and all Hebrews' debts are to be released by their fellow Hebrews - every seven years.

But since Lev 25:8 describes the Year of Jubilee as the fiftieth year after seven seven-year "weeks", does that counting of the seven years as described above include the Year of Jubilee? That is, does it reset on the start of the 50th year, or on the 51st? It would seem to me the latter, as it would keep the timing of the seven year/weeks, albeit with a sort of leapyear at the 50th year.

By the way, while Deut 15 refers to forgiving loans and Lev 25 refers to restoring inherited lands, both refer to freeing hebrew slaves. Is this an error, or a redundency?

2) I am refering to the fact that, since all debts are forgiven every seven years, a freed hebrew slave owes no-one anything. Yes, his Master owes him provision, for G-d promised to bless all of his people "richly", and would have none of them be poor.

3) this is from Lev 25:

39 " 'If one of your countrymen becomes poor among you and sells himself to you, do not make him work as a slave. 40 He is to be treated as a hired worker or a temporary resident among you; he is to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then he and his children are to be released, and he will go back to his own clan and to the property of his forefathers. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 " 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.' "

Non-hebrew slaves may be owned for life.

From this I see, you are clearly not an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi and have no concept of mesorah.

Considering that I copy/pasted that from the Mesorah Center, why don't you go bitch at them? Apparently you must know something they do not.

Since I am not getting to answer any questions, and some guy posing as a rabbi is falsly trying to so. I would like to politely ask that this thread be deleated. Thank you.

Come now. What kind of Jew feels threatened by an additional opinion being added to the discussion? You don't like the counter opinions offered then ignore them or refute them.

Generally accepted authorship:

Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy = Moses - 1400 B.C.


Yes, this is the traditional answer. But, focusing just on the Torah, how does the single authorship theory (Moses) account for the duplicated stories (such as the two creation stories in Genesis) and the differing names for God (the Hebrew word Elohim, usually translated "God;" and God's four-lettered name Y-H-W-H, usually translated "Lord"), or the changes in writting style and grammar? Also, how did Moses write of his own death?

I'll accept answers from either Keruvalia or Romish. I myself am not an expert.

Cain and Abel were both born with twin sisters.
King David writes (Psalms 89:3), "The world was built with kindness." Our sages interpreted this to mean that G-d kindly allowed Cain to wed his sister in order for humankind to be founded.
Source: Rashi on Leviticus 20:17

So the human race started with incest?
Sorry, I prefer evolution already.

Considering that I copy/pasted that from the Mesorah Center, why don't you go bitch at them? Apparently you must know something they do not.

As a matter of fact I do, they are not an Orthodox organization. Therefore their interpretation is not neccessarily as good as the Orthodox one.

So the human race started with incest?
Sorry, I prefer evolution already.
Since the Torah and it's laws were not given till many years later, they did not apply to Cain and Abel and whoever else. Adam and Eve were only given one commandment, not to eat from the tree.

God is one in that he is one being. As it says "I am the Lord your God, there is none else." The Bible says "He" so we can understand it.

"In His image created He him. Male and female created They them."

Tell us what is meant by "Elohim"? It's a plural word, is it not?

And as regards others answering the questions: you will not exert much control over that. Might I suggest that you get first crack at them, and that others may then add their comments? It seems anyway that some of us are bent on correcting you, and no matter how nicely you ask, that won't be stopped. ;)

As a matter of fact I do, they are not an Orthodox organization. Therefore their interpretation is not neccessarily as good as the Orthodox one.

Just on this statement alone, I am beginning to doubt you're even a Jew. New convert perhaps?

Just on this statement alone, I am beginning to doubt you're even a Jew. New convert perhaps?

Nope, a Ba'al Teshuvah Orthodox Jew, born in the Soviet Union, moved to the US in 1991.

"In His image created He him. Male and female created They them."

Tell us what is meant by "Elohim"? It's a plural word, is it not?

And as regards others answering the questions: you will not exert much control over that. Might I suggest that you get first crack at them, and that others may then add their comments? It seems anyway that some of us are bent on correcting you, and no matter how nicely you ask, that won't be stopped. ;)

The suffixes 'im' and 'ot' are not always refering to pluaral words, just as names that end in 's' in English don't mean it's more then one person. (ie. Brutus, but he was one person, he wasn't many Brutusees)

And I like your "first crack" idea

Since I am not getting to answer any questions, and some guy posing as a rabbi is falsly trying to so. I would like to politely ask that this thread be deleated. Thank you.

Rather extreme much? Don't worry that anyone will confuse him for you. And since he never claimed to be an orthodox Rabbi, why not allow him to voice alternate views?

Tell us what is meant by "Elohim"? It's a plural word, is it not?

Yes, yes it is. It was used as such to bring all of the people of Abrahamic descent together - even the Pagan ones. It actually worked for a long time.

"In the clay god and Man shall be bound, to a unity brought together;
So that to the end of days
the Flesh and the Soul
which in a god have ripened -
that Soul in a blood-kinship be bound."
- Sumerian creation story

Elohim means "He who is the object of fear or reverence," or "He with whom one who is afraid takes refuge".

It seems anyway that some of us are bent on correcting you, and no matter how nicely you ask, that won't be stopped. ;)

I've never met a Jew who minded being corrected.

Yes, yes it is. It was used as such to bring all of the people of Abrahamic descent together - even the Pagan ones. It actually worked for a long time.

"In the clay god and Man shall be bound, to a unity brought together;
So that to the end of days
the Flesh and the Soul
which in a god have ripened -
that Soul in a blood-kinship be bound."
- Sumerian creation story

Elohim means "He who is the object of fear or reverence," or "He with whom one who is afraid takes refuge".



I've never met a Jew who minded being corrected.

I certainly have. Of course he was my boss at the time. And I can imagine that most Jews do not like being corrected on matters of faith by non-Jews, and that most orthodox Jews do not like being corrected on matters of faith by non-orthodox Jews.

RM, did you see my response regarding Jubilee?

Nope, a Ba'al Teshuvah Orthodox Jew, born in the Soviet Union, moved to the US in 1991.

Yet ... you use Rashi as a source? Rashi, who wrote as if nothing at all was amiss with the world? Have you not read the Baalei Tosafot's "Rishonim"?

However, being that as it may, I can see where your closed mindedness comes from.

Note to other readers: the Ba'al Teshuvah do not recognize the validity of anyone but themselves. They are to Jews what the fundie Evangelicals are to Christians. They came out of a movement in the 1960s in both the US and Russia. They are also extreme Zionists.

Since the Torah and it's laws were not given till many years later, they did not apply to Cain and Abel and whoever else. Adam and Eve were only given one commandment, not to eat from the tree.

Law nothing. The idea that humans began off no better than cats is a pretty disgusting idea to me.

If we were given "the divine spark", I really don't think that G-d wouldn't create from just 2 to start with. Doesn't make any sense. There were mulitudes of fishes in the sea, animals on the land, etc.

Yet ... you use Rashi as a source? Rashi, who wrote as if nothing at all was amiss with the world? Have you not read the Baalei Tosafot's "Rishonim"?

However, being that as it may, I can see where your closed mindedness comes from.

Note to other readers: the Ba'al Teshuvah do not recognize the validity of anyone but themselves. They are to Jews what the fundie Evangelicals are to Christians. They came out of a movement in the 1960s in both the US and Russia. They are also extreme Zionists.

You know, I just might have to change my mind. *GASPS* Having two conflicting opinions should not be a problem, but this Battling Rabbis stuff really should end.

Law nothing. The idea that humans began off no better than cats is a pretty disgusting idea to me.

If we were given "the divine spark", I really don't think that G-d wouldn't create from just 2 to start with. Doesn't make any sense. There were mulitudes of fishes in the sea, animals on the land, etc.

If you and your sister were the last human beings on Earth, what would you do?

You know, I just might have to change my mind. *GASPS* Having two conflicting opinions should not be a problem, but this Battling Rabbis stuff really should end.

Nod ... I have to end this as well. His particular form of Orthodoxy is no better than OBL's particular form of Islam. It has been responsible for great acts of terrorism against the Muslim people and, well, I happen to be Muslim.

Nod ... I have to end this as well. His particular form of Orthodoxy is no better than OBL's particular form of Islam. It has been responsible for great acts of terrorism against the Muslim people and, well, I happen to be Muslim.

Oh yes, you're a muslim Rabbi. :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone here would have a problem with a similar thread from a Pentecostalist answering questions about Christianity in his own faith's perspective. I for one am interested in what he has to say. If I wanted to know what Christianity has to say about the Bible, I would ask a Fundementalist first. I know that there are many other stripes of Christians, but I would first ask a "purist".

Oh yes, you're a muslim Rabbi. :rolleyes:


Noooo .... I was born Jewish, studied my whole life, became a Rabbi, and converted to Islam about a month ago.

My conversion does not strip me of my knowledge or my education.

If you and your sister were the last human beings on Earth, what would you do?

Start working on the spaceship.

So where can I find out about the terrors of the Ba'al Teshuvah movement? I googled it but I can't find out anything about this alleged terrorism. Do you mean support of the zionist movement? The settlements? Lots of Jews of most all stripes support the settlements.

But you're wrong. God didn't consult the Angels. That's why they got so angry. Rashi has been debunked time and time again on this point - even by his own grandson.
When does it say the Angels got angry at god?

When does it say the Angels got angry at god?

Yeah. I don't think they got angry either.

I did some more researching, and my study Bible agrees that God was speaking sort of as a head of the council. Like a CEO addressing the employees: what will we do in the third quarter sort of deal. This would mean talking with the angels, too.

It said another place to look was in Isaiah, where Isaiah is sort of let in on the inner workings of God, where God again uses these plural pronouns to address the rest of the heavenly host.