NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's something I wrote over the past few weeks. Hope you like it!

What’s the difference between evolution and creation?
By Roma Verzub

DISCLAIMER
What I am about to discuss may seem controversial to some, and some may not find it useful. Some sources I quote are generally not available to non-Jewish person or in any language other then Hebrew. I am not a scientist and I do not claim to be one.
END DISCLAIMER

Ok, so the question I would like to address now is the age of the universe, the Big Bang theory, and evolution. I also plan to examine whether or not the Torah mentions anything that can be of use in this debate.

Ok, well first off, if you read the Bible in the story of creation you get some stuff like

"And it was evening, and it was morning, a second day." All the way to the 7th day, on which it says that God "rested". Of course God doesn't really get tired so does he need to rest? No way! What it's trying to tell you is that God "rested" in order to set an example for mankind to follow. So, given that not every word in the Bible is literal fact, the a Jewish commentator living in Spain, Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, (1135-1204) said that a lot of things in the Bible are written more so that humans can understand it. For example, when the Jews were rescued from Egypt it says that they were saved "by the hand of God." Of course God doesn't have hands, or feet, or any of that stuff, but it says "hand" so we as human beings can visualize and understand it better.


So, given that, let's examine the age of the universe. According to a literal translation of the Bible, the universe (or some believe the time since Adam) is 5765 years old. According to the Theory of Evolution the universe is somewhere between 14 and 18 billion years old. 5 thousand and 14 billion are quite different numbers, so maybe this is another one of those "don't take it seriously" kinds of things. Let's examine why.

The Sefer HaTemunah states that the universe has 7 x 7000 year cycles. The Livnat HaSapir says that we're done with 6 of them. Therefore, according to this argument we have gone through 42000 years.

Psalms 90:4 says "For, in your eyes a thousand years are like yesterday that quickly passes, or like one of the divisions of the nighttime." which suggests that to God, one day is like to us 1000 years. So if one "God-day" is 1000 years, then one "God-year" is 365250 years.

So, to calculate the age of the universe according to this theory, we would multiply 42000 x 365250 = 15,340,500,000. So according to this theory the universe is in fact over 15 billion years old. The age of the universe according to science is, as I mentioned before, somewhere between 14 and 18 billion. 15 billion's in between, right?

Moving on, there’s the Big Bang. According to this theory all of the matter in the universe was once in some dense thingy that exploded and there is our universe.

Isaac Newton's first law of motion states clearly that "An object at rest stays at rest..." So therefore, how could this giant ball thing have exploded if some other force did not act it on? By the way, where did it come from in the first place? If you say it existed before anything else because it created everything else, then you have just defined God.

Now I'd like to address natural selection. First off, the fact that fossil's of Neanderthal's and Dinosaurs have been found do not in any way, shape, or form contradict the Torah. In fact, a Midrash says that our world is actually built on top of other worlds that were previously created and destroyed, each time the world became more perfect. Keep in mind that the Bible starts "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth." That means that what was created in the Genesis story is just the heavens and the Earth, not the universe itself!

Moreover, for evolution’s sake, you may wonder how we have such diversity among the animal kingdom. For example, there are 36 different species of wild cats. How did God to that? Well, in the Bible it says that each thing was created (or “brought forth”) “…according to their [its] kind…” This may mean that God may have just created “ox” which later evolved into it’s forms. God may have just created “cat” which later evolved into Persian, Siamese, Halle Berry ;) . This is important when you note that there are some creatures that are not quite fish and not quite plant and not quite sea, like coral. And there are animals that are not quite animals but not quite humans, like apes.

Moving along, let’s look at the difference, according to King Solomon in Kohelet, between people and animals. Humans have a soul, animals do not. That’s entirely it. True, with that soul we’re given the opportunity to make choices and think, but that all stems from the soul.

When you look at the leaves changing color and falling during the autumn, you know what causes it. It’s when the trees produce less chlorophyll when it’s cold… yadda, yadda, yadda. Of course, this may just be the way God does it. He may use chlorophyll and that’s HOW he does it. The Big Bang may have been HOW he chose to create the world.

I hope someone has found this preceding informative, and I welcome all comments and questions.

well.... :eek:
altho im still an atheist, this is actually the most logical (read: THE ONLY)
Creationist theory thats not stupid and thick headed and to be really honest its absolutely a great piece of thinking!
that would fit creationism in the reality picture.

but then still for me the question remains is why god would let 78000 thousand ppl die in a tsunami, and no its not to teach there families a valuable lesson in life.

***EDIT*****

The word Brilliance comes to mind.

Very informative, an exellent read. Personally I believe that creationism is a load of mumble jumble, but I am Jew so I found it very interesting.

just need to get this into the recently read things again:)

World is 13,7 billion years old, that has been proofed by many scientists. Or, should I say, Big Bang happened 13,7 billion years ago.

The important thing for me as Christian is not the exact mechanics of how the world was created or how old it is, but can be found in Chapter 3 of Genesis. It states that death came into this world because of man. Evolution contradicts this and says that death has been here (nearly) as long as life has. Christ came to fix what man screwed up in Genesis. Death (according to the original plan) is abnormal. Evolution says that death is normal. Christ would not come to fix what is normal. This is the crux of the evolution/creation debate, not the age of the earth.

ah, now lets look at some Philosophy! A long long time ago, (in a galaxy far far away jk) when I was in science class, physics I think it was I used to talk with a good freind of mine, now we would make jokes and screw off during lectures, but we did some thinking, we began to joke and think at the same time. A very interesting combo! we came up with this theory, now the facts are not exact, and it was concieved for pure humor, now I look at it and smirk and find some truth. first ask the question, can non-existence exist, with out existence? can anti-be with out pro? we decided that no it can not, so therfor, the split second before time began, there must have been an infinite expanse of existence, therfor creating an infinity of which can only be descerned by time, so therfor time began. Now this prime existence that created everything in a gigantic boom, (big bang) we shall label G.O.D
G:gift O:of D:darkness (we just made that up, no hate replys pleeeaaaassse!) Now because of this infinite expanse of this being it must have had even if finite a sense of knowing, and grew to be able to coincide with our "Universe" Therfor, in Science class we discovered how god was created! (there is much much more to it, but hey, my fingers hurt.) THINK ABOUT IT! :headbang: And now a scene from my German class a long long time ago, (in a galaxy far far away) :) Venn ist das nurnstuck git und slotermeyer? Ya! Beigerhund das oder die Flipperwaldt gersput! LOL!!!! :D

Here's something I wrote over the past few weeks. Hope you like it!

What’s the difference between evolution and creation?
By Roma Verzub

DISCLAIMER
What I am about to discuss may seem controversial to some, and some may not find it useful. Some sources I quote are generally not available to non-Jewish person or in any language other then Hebrew. I am not a scientist and I do not claim to be one.
END DISCLAIMER

Ok, so the question I would like to address now is the age of the universe, the Big Bang theory, and evolution. I also plan to examine whether or not the Torah mentions anything that can be of use in this debate.

Ok, well first off, if you read the Bible in the story of creation you get some stuff like

"And it was evening, and it was morning, a second day." All the way to the 7th day, on which it says that God "rested". Of course God doesn't really get tired so does he need to rest? No way! What it's trying to tell you is that God "rested" in order to set an example for mankind to follow. So, given that not every word in the Bible is literal fact, the a Jewish commentator living in Spain, Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon, (1135-1204) said that a lot of things in the Bible are written more so that humans can understand it. For example, when the Jews were rescued from Egypt it says that they were saved "by the hand of God." Of course God doesn't have hands, or feet, or any of that stuff, but it says "hand" so we as human beings can visualize and understand it better.


So, given that, let's examine the age of the universe. According to a literal translation of the Bible, the universe (or some believe the time since Adam) is 5765 years old. According to the Theory of Evolution the universe is somewhere between 14 and 18 billion years old. 5 thousand and 14 billion are quite different numbers, so maybe this is another one of those "don't take it seriously" kinds of things. Let's examine why.

The Sefer HaTemunah states that the universe has 7 x 7000 year cycles. The Livnat HaSapir says that we're done with 6 of them. Therefore, according to this argument we have gone through 42000 years.

Psalms 90:4 says "For, in your eyes a thousand years are like yesterday that quickly passes, or like one of the divisions of the nighttime." which suggests that to God, one day is like to us 1000 years. So if one "God-day" is 1000 years, then one "God-year" is 365250 years.

So, to calculate the age of the universe according to this theory, we would multiply 42000 x 365250 = 15,340,500,000. So according to this theory the universe is in fact over 15 billion years old. The age of the universe according to science is, as I mentioned before, somewhere between 14 and 18 billion. 15 billion's in between, right?

Moving on, there’s the Big Bang. According to this theory all of the matter in the universe was once in some dense thingy that exploded and there is our universe.

Isaac Newton's first law of motion states clearly that "An object at rest stays at rest..." So therefore, how could this giant ball thing have exploded if some other force did not act it on? By the way, where did it come from in the first place? If you say it existed before anything else because it created everything else, then you have just defined God.

Now I'd like to address natural selection. First off, the fact that fossil's of Neanderthal's and Dinosaurs have been found do not in any way, shape, or form contradict the Torah. In fact, a Midrash says that our world is actually built on top of other worlds that were previously created and destroyed, each time the world became more perfect. Keep in mind that the Bible starts "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth." That means that what was created in the Genesis story is just the heavens and the Earth, not the universe itself!

Moreover, for evolution’s sake, you may wonder how we have such diversity among the animal kingdom. For example, there are 36 different species of wild cats. How did God to that? Well, in the Bible it says that each thing was created (or “brought forth”) “…according to their [its] kind…” This may mean that God may have just created “ox” which later evolved into it’s forms. God may have just created “cat” which later evolved into Persian, Siamese, Halle Berry ;) . This is important when you note that there are some creatures that are not quite fish and not quite plant and not quite sea, like coral. And there are animals that are not quite animals but not quite humans, like apes.

Moving along, let’s look at the difference, according to King Solomon in Kohelet, between people and animals. Humans have a soul, animals do not. That’s entirely it. True, with that soul we’re given the opportunity to make choices and think, but that all stems from the soul.

When you look at the leaves changing color and falling during the autumn, you know what causes it. It’s when the trees produce less chlorophyll when it’s cold… yadda, yadda, yadda. Of course, this may just be the way God does it. He may use chlorophyll and that’s HOW he does it. The Big Bang may have been HOW he chose to create the world.

I hope someone has found this preceding informative, and I welcome all comments and questions.
*applauds* Wow. Just....wow. This actually makes sense, and almost makes me believe it. I'm agnostic, as some of you may know, so I want proof before I believe anything, but this...this just might work...though I'll want more proof, first. ;)

Isaac Newton's first law of motion states clearly that "An object at rest stays at rest..." So therefore, how could this giant ball thing have exploded if some other force did not act it on? By the way, where did it come from in the first place? If you say it existed before anything else because it created everything else, then you have just defined God.

Its a common mis-conception that the laws of physics existed before the Univers, they were created along with the big bang, therefore this argument need not apply.

Everything is moving. Moving has a reason. God (or whatever anyone of you want to call god) is the First Mover, the one made things go around.

World is 13,7 billion years old, that has been proofed by many scientists. Or, should I say, Big Bang happened 13,7 billion years ago.
The Big Bang did not happen 13.7 billion years ago and there no proof of it.
Go try blowing that smoke up somone else's skirt
There probably will never be a definitive answer to this, at least in our life times, please go read a book or scour google for a few hours.

Very good.

So the big bang happened and out popped the world instantly? Non-specific higher power how I hate non logical arguements.

The Big Bang did not happen 13.7 billion years ago and there no proof of it.
Go try blowing that smoke up somone else's skirt
There probably will never be a definitive answer to this, at least in our life times, please go read a book or scour google for a few hours.Have you got any proofs that Big BAng DIDN'T happen 13,7 billion years ago?

Edit: WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe) s the proof. It's calculations show that universe is 13,7 billion years old.

(By the way, it is hard to write those numbers, because our word "billion" is a million times bigger number than your billion. I have used your billion, 1 000 000 000)

that book said we where in the 6th cycle so that would leave us somewhere between 6 *7000 and 3*7000 (since the book was written along time ago when we were already in the cycle) that leaves 42000 and 21000 *365250

21000* 365250= 7670250000 = 7 billion

so between 7 and 15 billion, and your 13,7 fits in there:)

according to you we are supposed to be

1370000000/ 365250 = 37510 / 7000 = 5.36

100/6 * 5,36 = 89% of our 6th cycle which would mean that in
42000-37510 = +/- 4490 years this cycle would end:)

just mathemathics but i dont believe in it all :rolleyes: (correct me if i made any mistakes in calculating)

Everything is moving. Moving has a reason. God (or whatever anyone of you want to call god) is the First Mover, the one made things go around.

That's called "Common Sense" and "Common Sense" is wrong. You get disastrous results from applying it on a cosmic scale, since it's only the sum of our everyday prejudices.

Newtonian physics have been shown inaccurate on the scale in question, since they're just models based on early observations. Quantum physics is counterintuitive (ie. it "makes no sense"), but still produces plausible explanations where common sense just draws a blank. Discard the idea of causality when considering Big Bang and you'll relieve yourself of a lot of ballast.

That's called "Common Sense" and "Common Sense" is wrong. You get disastrous results from applying it on a cosmic scale, since it's only the sum of our everyday prejudices.

Newtonian physics have been shown inaccurate on the scale in question, since they're just models based on early observations. Quantum physics is counterintuitive (ie. it "makes no sense"), but still produces plausible explanations where common sense just draws a blank. Discard the idea of causality when considering Big Bang and you'll relieve yourself of a lot of ballast.
Hey what's wrong with a bit of ballast? When the winds of change are blowing all around you and the sea of uncertainty is heaving beneath your hull, ballast is what keeps your head above water!

Hey what's wrong with a bit of ballast? When the winds of change are blowing all around you and the sea of uncertainty is heaving beneath your hull, ballast is what keeps your head above water!

Hey, leave my analogy alone. It's just a figure of speech. :)

Besides, what if you need to take off and fly to get what you need?

weellll, considering humans have selectively bred alot of animals

Wow :D Nice work, and mostly correct. Only few minor mistakes, but all in all glorious!!!


.

Now I'd like to address natural selection. First off, the fact that fossil's of Neanderthal's and Dinosaurs have been found do not in any way, shape, or form contradict the Torah. In fact, a Midrash says that our world is actually built on top of other worlds that were previously created and destroyed, each time the world became more perfect. Keep in mind that the Bible starts "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth." That means that what was created in the Genesis story is just the heavens and the Earth, not the universe itself!

Well... Evolution doesn't mean that living things became perfect. It just means they adapt the most usefull form, and that varies from time to time. For example, humans are no "better" than, say, dinosaurs.

.
Moving along, let’s look at the difference, according to King Solomon in Kohelet, between people and animals. Humans have a soul, animals do not. That’s entirely it. True, with that soul we’re given the opportunity to make choices and think, but that all stems from the soul.


How do you know that I got soul, but a gorilla doesn't? :p


Well, great thread anyway! Fluffles to you :fluffle:

(bump)

Have you got any proofs that Big BAng DIDN'T happen 13,7 billion years ago?
You can't prove a negative.


Anyway, this is the best theory of Creationism I've heard so far! Now, if only all Christains were that logical about it...

hmmm sounds cool, I'm going to hike up and ask Jesus, HEY JESUS! IS HE RIGHT? he said yes. congrats, wait your Jewish? so you don't beleive that Jesus said you were right? dang. um ok I'll be back soon. God says your right too. OH COME ON CANT YOU TAKE JOKE!!

You can't prove a negative.


Anyway, this is the best theory of Creationism I've heard so far! Now, if only all Christains were that logical about it...

True, but you can disprove something... i.e. that the universe is 13.7 billion years old. Can you find any evidence to show that the universe is NOT 13.7 billion years old?

There are still a few disagreements between science and Genesis though. Most prominent is that the order in which things were created doesn't agree. Specifically:
- Stellar evolution says sun first, planets later. Genesis says earth first, sun later.
- Genesis says there was light on earth without the sun and stars - and that plantlife was abundant before the sun was there - probably thanks to the mysterious light of G-d.

Note however that this does not prove either wrong or right. Both theories work.

There are still a few disagreements between science and Genesis though. Most prominent is that the order in which things were created doesn't agree. Specifically:
- Stellar evolution says sun first, planets later. Genesis says earth first, sun later.
- Genesis says there was light on earth without the sun and stars - and that plantlife was abundant before the sun was there - probably thanks to the mysterious light of G-d.

Note however that this does not prove either wrong or right. Both theories work.

I believe Genesis says "Heavens and the Earth" and is the sun not placed in the sky where we look to find the Heavens?

I believe Genesis says "Heavens and the Earth" and is the sun not placed in the sky where we look to find the Heavens?

Yes, but Genesis explicitly states that sun, moon and stars were created on the fourth day.

Mabey the first plant life was a type of fosforesent (pardon my spelling) alge or fungus, they both have been known to grow in the dark, mabey this is the abundant plant life.

Yes, but Genesis explicitly states that sun, moon and stars were created on the fourth day.

You are quite right.

I believe it's necessary to define a clear description of what God is, in order to compare the 2 ideas.
Is it, as many amongst you seem to believe, an all-knowing being or is it something else?
I like to believe that God is nothing more than a marketing agenda which got out of control. Just like the Coca-Cola company invented Santa to sell more of their product, long ago, a group of people invented god in order to give their product ( a society based on a certain philosophy ) an image. Unfortunatly, some "buyers" got it all wrong and started asking question which didn't really matter like when did God create the universe? This is like asking: where does Santa live?
So, assuming that God is nothing more than a marketing scheme created by men, I can only conclude that the only threory worth a penny is the Big-Bang-theory.

Finally:
a hole is a hole, and my mighty destroyer has got no eyes, but wants to see science triumph nevertheless