NationStates Jolt Archive

Before any leftists pounce on me, let me remind you that I'm a Democrat. Ok, basically both Bush and the Nazis exhibited nationalism, militarism, flag waving, religious intolerance, etc. While this is true, they are on MUCH different scales. Saying something negative about the US is not met by swift and violent death. There is no Gestapo that tells me that I must love the leader or die. I publicly practice Judaism. There is no draft. Anyone who thinks Bush is a fascist is not in the main stream of politics. I'll give an example for Europeans, too. Both Charles Kennedy and socialists oppose the flat tax, care about the environment, and oppose the Iraq war. Does this mean that Charles Kennedy is a socialist? NO!

Very few people actually, *literally consider Bush a facist. It's mostly used as an attacking word against him. But he can still be a terrible leader, an idiot, and a bastard.

And let me remind you that part of the reason he isn't some of those things is because he simply can't be. Ruling in America has some restrictions, namely the ability of the people to impeach a president. Most people dissaprove of those things, and I don't think Bush is smart enough to change the legal process fast enough to prevent the barriers from popping up on the path to fascism. Of course, that is all assuming he is actually trying to, which I don't think he is. Once again, too much opposition, not enough intelligence.

Very few people actually, *literally consider Bush a facist. It's mostly used as an attacking word against him. But he can still be a terrible leader, an idiot, and a bastard.

He most certainly can be a terrible leader, but then why do 38% of the people in the poll believe that the US is fascist? That really concerns me when nearly four out of ten people on these boards believe that.

You'd have been more correct if you'd said "Bush is not a Nazi," because that's what you're arguing--successfully. But Nazism and Fascism are not the same, even though the two largest practitioners of both were close allies during WW II.

Fascism, unfortunately, has lost a lot of its meaning today due to the haphazard way it is thrown around by politicos of all stripes, and due to the way it is linked with prefixes that tend to further denude the word of its meaning (crypto-fascists, Islamo-fascists, etc.).

Fascism is basically corporatism plus extreme nationalism, and using that definition, there can be a very strong case made that Bush is indeed a fascist. His entire policy program revolves around doing what's best for corporate America at the expense of individual citizens, and tries to keep the opposition in thrall by accusing them of being unpatriotic (appealing to nationalistic tendencies in the people). To do this subject justice would take more time and energy than I'm currently willing to devote to it, but that's the basics.

He most certainly can be a terrible leader, but then why do 38% of the people in the poll believe that the US is fascist? That really concerns me when nearly four out of ten people on these boards believe that.

How representative of 1. NS in general and 2. society in general is that poll? Of course you'll have a disproportionately high number saying that he is, as the thread is likely titled
"Bush = eeeeeeeevil" or "I hate America" or the like. Those who believe in that sort of thing will see the thread and be like "OH! A thread for me!" whereas those of us who are damn sick of the foolishness won't spend the time waiting for the thread to load.

Fascism is basically corporatism plus extreme nationalism, and using that definition, there can be a very strong case made that Bush is indeed a fascist. His entire policy program revolves around doing what's best for corporate America at the expense of individual citizens, and tries to keep the opposition in thrall by accusing them of being unpatriotic (appealing to nationalistic tendencies in the people).
www.dictionary.com's definintion for fascism:

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Bush is not a dictator, he does not oppress the opposition through terror, and he is not a belligerent racist.

How representative of 1. NS in general and 2. society in general is that poll? Of course you'll have a disproportionately high number saying that he is, as the thread is likely titled
"Bush = eeeeeeeevil" or "I hate America" or the like. Those who believe in that sort of thing will see the thread and be like "OH! A thread for me!" whereas those of us who are damn sick of the foolishness won't spend the time waiting for the thread to load.
True, but why would ANYBODY think he was fascist?

www.dictionary.com is NOT the the same as a real dictionary.

www.dictionary.com is NOT the the same as a real dictionary.
Fine the merriam-webster website's definition is:

"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

This still emphasizes autocratic dictatorship and "forcible suppression of opposition". Still not Bush.

Sorry, I just had to pop in and say that is all.

True, but why would ANYBODY think he was fascist?

People redefine words to fit their agenda.
I mean, who ever thought we'd see someone say "it depends what your definition of 'is' is."

I know, it makes me want to smack them too.

Very few people actually, *literally consider Bush a facist. It's mostly used as an attacking word against him. But he can still be a terrible leader, an idiot, and a bastard.

Actually on the bastard bit if you want to get technical...

I don't know if Bush is a fascist pig, as most people say. He is just stupid, mean-spirited, and he is an evil man who wants to rule the world. I would recommend against associating with him. If it wasn't so cold, I would move quickly to Canada and renounce my American citizenship, just because of him and his crowd being so driven by their love of money. I could go on. It's like when Hitler was in power... I wonder how many Germans, and citizens of countries conquored by Germany, saw just how evil the man was. How do these people trick so many people into following them?

Fine the merriam-webster website's definition is:

"a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition"

This still emphasizes autocratic dictatorship and "forcible suppression of opposition". Still not Bush.
dictionaries have no authority in their definitions beyond common consent, if that common consent is incorrect then so is the definition.

dictionaries have no authority in their definitions beyond common consent, if that common consent is incorrect then so is the definition.
I have consulted two different sources, one being the website of the dictionary bought most by Americans. Neither of their definitions matches Bush. If that does not satisy you, I don't know what will.

I have consulted two different sources, one being the website of the dictionary bought most by Americans. Neither of their definitions matches Bush. If that does not satisy you, I don't know what will.
it you believe that political analysis involves looking up definitions in a dictionary then you most certainly have no idea what would satisfy me.

http://www.couplescompany.com/Features/Politics/Structure3.htm

What does everyone think about this website's definition of fascism?

www.dictionary.com's definintion for fascism:

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Bush is not a dictator, he does not oppress the opposition through terror, and he is not a belligerent racist.

Bush is not a dictator, although he has a tendency towards unilateral action for reasons he believes are correct, even if those reasons are factually disproven.

Bush does not oppress them through *direct* terror, although Al Qaeda and "terrorists" in general make for good Boogeymen for him to make the general population dance to his beat.

Bush is not a belligerent racist, yet he advocates Christianity above all other religions, and thus indirectly contributes to racism through more radical members of the religion and proselytization under the guise of relief aid workers.

He most certainly can be a terrible leader, but then why do 38% of the people in the poll believe that the US is fascist? That really concerns me when nearly four out of ten people on these boards believe that.

Don't worry, these boards are no reflection on real-world people :p

(Far-Left and I don't think Bush is fascist.)

Bush is not a dictator, although he has a tendency towards unilateral action for reasons he believes are correct, even if those reasons are factually disproven.

Bush does not oppress them through *direct* terror, although Al Qaeda and "terrorists" in general make for good Boogeymen for him to make the general population dance to his beat.

Bush is not a belligerent racist, yet he advocates Christianity above all other religions, and thus indirectly contributes to racism through more radical members of the religion and proselytization under the guise of relief aid workers.
This can describe so many people throughout history who would never be described as "fascists".

it you believe that political analysis involves looking up definitions in a dictionary then you most certainly have no idea what would satisfy me.
I was countering other people's posts that claimed that fascism means a combination of corporatism and nationalism. I wanted to show them that it is much more than that.

he's not a fascist, but he is a terrible president

It's more the people he is working for(Evangelists) that have fascist ideas(christianity in schools or else).

The world sucks, there is nothing we can do.

www.dictionary.com's definintion for fascism:

"A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism."

Bush is not a dictator, he does not oppress the opposition through terror, and he is not a belligerent racist.

Well - - - - Bush does oppress the opposition through terror (like "if you vote for him you will not be safe") and he is a dictator as much as the senate and congress allow it. I don't see anyone standing up to him and winning any issues. Bush does censor the media (not allowing pictures of flag draped coffins, not allowing reporting of the "bulge" seen in his jacket at the debates, incouraging the media to not let the Lutheran Church run their "acceptance of all peoples" ad because it included gays).

He is very scary to have in charge of our country. Please, everyone, let's get him and all his cronies out.

Slender Goddess

I think if you're going to argue whether or not Bush is a fascist, a good place to start would be the original delineation of fascism:

The Doctrine of Fascism (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Germany/mussolini.htm).

This text would probably provide a better definition than any dictionary. Second, providing a definition for fascism as a system and then arguing that Bush doesn't operate that way doesn't clarify whether or not Bush is a fascist. A person can be an advocate and believer of the principles of fascism, thus be a fascist, without existing and participating in a fascist system. Thus, listing criteria of a fully fascist government to argue Bush isn't a fascist is pointless. It would make better sense to use the system criteria to evaluate whether or not the US is fascist. I don't think it is, but it could be pushed that way if group of fascist individuals believing in the tenets of fascism were in power.

I think there is a good case to be made for Bush having (at least) some fascist leanings, if not being an outright fascist. He has demonstrated his belief in autocratic power and executive independence of any Constitutional checks & balances. His renowned unwillingness to hear other opinions and to instead rely on his 'gut' are prime examples of his dictatorial leanings. His wilingness to isse executive orders is another example.

He relies heavily on nationalist rhetoric (homeland?), often mixing it with Christian theology and imagery. He has demonstrated a willingness to impose Christian-nationalist moral law upon the populace. He often conflates Jesus with America, especially in regard to the war on terrorism and the "mission" of America. The color coding warning system and the threat of terror, especially at lowpoints in public opinion, are used to terrify the populace into line with his agenda.

When on the road, his secret service forces protestors into designated "free-speech" zones, often away from any spot Bush will actually approach. Pretty Orwellian, eh? During the election, he had law enforcement and Secret Service forcibly eject dissentors from the crowds. You could be arrested for just wearing an anti-Bush t-shirt. Has Bush ordered anyone "disappeared" yet? Well, not unless you happen to be an Arab Muslim, citizen or not. Then you can receive a free vacation to Guantanamo Bay where you can be held without trial, accusation, access to a lawyer or access to the outside world. Does that strike anyone as particularly "democratic?" If you're lucky, maybe you can be one of the "detainees" that gets tortured. Who knows what further 'necessarily evils' Bush and his administration might impose if he were totally free to act.

It is unarguable that he is viciously militaristic and aggressive: "pre-emption," renewed nuclear weapons research, increased militarization of space ("star wars" funding). Let's not forget his support of rigid social heirarchy that he has repeatedly rewarded with upper classed biased tax cuts. Of course, the corporate favoritism goes without saying.

While I would not agree that the US is currently a fascist nation, the potential to be pushed in that direction is not just lefty paranoia. My bet would be that another major attack in the US, and he would declare martial law. We could all guess what would happen after that.

Bush seems to hold the necessary beliefs and act in a manner consistent with a fascist currently constrained by a non-fascist system of government. It seems clear that Bush himself is indeed a fascist.

If you say Bush is a moron, you are arrested and placed in jail. Didn't you read all of the newspaper articles describing his inhumane stance on civil rights?