NationStates Jolt Archive

Here's something that occurred to me recently.

Everybody occasionally has a racially insensitive or discriminatory thought from time to time. It seems to be part of the human condition. However, normal people recognize this thought for what it is; irrational. They dismiss the thought almost as quickly as it surfaces. Might even wonder how a thought light that even got in your head.

However, racists don't recognize the thought as irrational. This is either because they don't have the mechanism to do so, or because they have been convinced by others that such thoughts are rational.

Regardless of the method, I think it's important to recognize the inability to recognize the irrationality of these thoughts for what they are; a deficiency.

Hey, what can I say? I know crazy. We recognize our own kind. :D

The greater question at hand is "Is trolling a mental illness?"

It does raise an interesting question... and it does sound a lot like trolling. Still, is racism a mental illness... i'd have to say... possibly :D.

Here's something that occurred to me recently.

Everybody occasionally has a racially insensitive or discriminatory thought from time to time. It seems to be part of the human condition. However, normal people recognize this thought for what it is; irrational. They dismiss the thought almost as quickly as it surfaces. Might even wonder how a thought light that even got in your head.

However, racists don't recognize the thought as irrational. This is either because they don't have the mechanism to do so, or because they have been convinced by others that such thoughts are rational.

Regardless of the method, I think it's important to recognize the inability to recognize the irrationality of these thoughts for what they are; a deficiency.

Hey, what can I say? I know crazy. We recognize our own kind. :D
but that basically means anyone who disagrees with a generally accepted oppinion is mentally ill. racism was the dominatant oppinion on race until say 60 years ago. those people weren't insane, so their is nothing inherently mad about the position. its just that the position has fallen into disfavor, and it hardly seems reasonable to claim that any minority opinion is grounds for a diagnosis of mental illness.

the nazis weren't a nation suddenly overwhelmed by insanity, they were a nation of sane people who allowed their baser natures to dominate their higher ones. they were evil, they weren't mad and the same is true of modern racists(though certainly some are mentally ill, and its possible that certain ideologies could have a greater attraction to certain types of pathological people, this doesn't make the very fact of holding such ideology a symptom of such illness).

No.
If people were honest with themselves, they'd know that everyone has a little bit of prejudice towards anything different from who they are. It's human nature. Different is intimidating.
But see, everyone has to get over that. Racism isn't a matter of mental disease. It's a matter of choice. While you can't change how you feel, you can change the way you act. You can CHOSE to help yourself look at things in a different light. But racists, sexists... all of them don't.
There are a lot of defense attornies who try to paint racism as a mental disorder when they are representing someone accused of a hate crime. But ultimately it's just that: those SLEEZE balls just want to make money and they'll do or say whatever they can to make their point.
I really wonder how people like that sleep at night...

But it does raise the question, are racists today, whos views have been proven to be based upon... errr... wrong thought i shall put it, in any way suffering from a mental illness. I cant think they are, after all, all people go through a point in their lives in which they come to a conclusion and then later discover it was flawed. for some this lasts their entire lives, there's no reason to call them mad, its just human developement.

It can certainly be the cause of mental illness, as the dipshit who spat racial slurs at a friend of mine might attest to. That's assuming he didn't lose the ability to speak after he was throttled.

No.
If people were honest with themselves, they'd know that everyone has a little bit of prejudice towards anything different from who they are. It's human nature. Different is intimidating.
But see, everyone has to get over that. Racism isn't a matter of mental disease. It's a matter of choice. While you can't change how you feel, you can change the way you act. You can CHOSE to help yourself look at things in a different light. But racists, sexists... all of them don't.
There are a lot of defense attornies who try to paint racism as a mental disorder when they are representing someone accused of a hate crime. But ultimately it's just that: those SLEEZE balls just want to make money and they'll do or say whatever they can to make their point.
I really wonder how people like that sleep at night...

As a criminal defense attorney, I'll say I sleep quite well at night knowing that I made the government prove beyond a reasonable doubt that my client was guilty of not only the acts they charged, but of having the motiviation to committ those acts that they claim.

You have no understanding of the criminal justice system it would seem. Evidence that racial hatred is a mental "disease or defect" has, to my knowledge, NEVER been used to prove that someone is "not guilty" of the crime charged. It is used, admittedly, to convince a jury that the punishment, upon conviction of the crime, should be minimal/reduced due to the person's mental status and views. Psychological issues such as this have been used for over 100 years since the development of the M'Naghten test of insanity was developed in Britain.

So called "hate crimes" are an anomally in the criminal justice system as they require proof of motive, something that few crimes outside of "possession with intent to deliver" require. The difference being that an objective standard can be applied to "intent to deliver crimes" (You have a kilo of cocaine, it is fairly safe to say you didn't have it for personal consumption. However, you killed an African-American, did you do it because he was black or because he had stolen your lawnmower? How do you objectively prove the motivation in such a case?).

Personally, I don't think that racial hatred is a mental disease or defect, it is something that is learned. However, as a criminal defense attorney, I'll argue that it is a defective way of thinking that was implanted/imposed on my client as he grew up that makes it reasonable to consider a minimal punishment upon conviction since it was the way he had been raised to think, despite its being the "wrong" way to believe.

EDIT BTW, Why is it that people attack and critisize the lawyer, who is just one person, but never say anything about the twelve people on the jury who actually make the decisions?

Let me ask this then; Would the belief that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it nowadays be considered a sign of mental illness?

I would think so. I'm not talking about a difference of opinion. I'm talking about holding on to outmoded dogma in the face of rational evidence of the contrary. That's irrational behavior.

No. I don't think so.

And to everyone who says "Everyone is racist blah blah," that's bullshit.

No. I don't think so.

And to everyone who says "Everyone is racist blah blah," that's bullshit.

I'm not saying that everyone is racist. I'm saying that everyone has racial or discriminatory thoughts. but a RATIONAL mind dismisses them.

No. I don't think so.

And to everyone who says "Everyone is racist blah blah," that's bullshit.

Not everyone is racist, but everyone is somewhat prejudiced based on past experience.

You have no understanding of the criminal justice system it would seem. Evidence that racial hatred is a mental "disease or defect" has, to my knowledge, NEVER been used to prove that someone is "not guilty" of the crime charged.


You didn't read my post, it would seem. I never ONCE said it was used to prove someone's not guilty. I just said it was used in their case.

Admittedly, I'm no expert in law. But I think using that excuse would be wrong, terribly wrong. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

You didn't read my post, it would seem. I never ONCE said it was used to prove someone's not guilty. I just said it was used in their case.

Admittedly, I'm no expert in law. But I think that defense lawyers should really think morally about how they represent their clients, and sometimes, if they should even represent them at all. When it's appointed, I understand. But some people will do ANYTHING to make money. Maybe you're not like that, and I apologize if I have offended you. But honestly, sometimes the lawyers DESERVE the flack.

I do think morally about how I represent a client and I do think that morally the government should be required to prove their case and I do think that morally it is my obligation to make them prove it and also to try and show the jury every reason why punishment should be minimal.

I did read your post and you seem to be critisizing the idea that it is used in the case at all, whether for guilt/innocence reasons or for mitigation of punishment reasons. I was merely trying to point out it is a legit issue to be raised in a criminal case.

Finally, I still don't see how lawyers "DESERVE the flack" for making every argument they can on behalf of their client when it is the JURY that makes the final decision. I don't get to "declare" my client innocent or sentence him to the minimum, it is the jury that does that. I only argue why I believe they should decide in my favor. I'm one guy vs. 12 (supposedly and assumedly) reasonable people. Why am I to blame and deserving of flack when those 12 people decided in my favor? Are you saying they are all idiots that will buy anything I put in front of them? If so, you need to explain to many of my clients why they are doing time.

I'm not trying to offend you and I'm not offended by what you said, it is typical and I hear it all the time. I'm just asking you to be thoughtful about your criticism of attorneys and that jobs they do. Recognize we have a moral obligation to our client, to defend him and make the state prove their case. If we don't use every legal and ethical tactic we have, then we are behaving in an immoral fashion.

Short answer : xenophobia.

Long answer: probably not a mental disease as such. Certainly has links with paranoia, particularly given the dynamic behind both, namely projection. Obvious links with primitive tribalism. Also, of course with scape-goating.

Most worrying feature is that it is seemingly impervious to reason, science, or logic.

Frequently cause of extremely poor errors of judgement, particularly in the military sphere, usually linked to a gross underestimation of the enemy. Operation Barbarossa (Nazi invasion of USSR), the Battle of the Little Big Horn (aka Custer's Last Stand) and Isandlwana (the Zulu victory over British forces in 1879) all provide examples.

Perhaps its most distressing feature is its propensity to incite violence, and its inefficiency in that it discards the human qualities of those it chooses to see as either inferior or as an enemy. One of the most common examples, of course, is Einstein, who as a Jew faced persecution in Nazi Germany. As a result, in 1933 he emigrated to America.

Let me ask this then; Would the belief that the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it nowadays be considered a sign of mental illness?

I would think so. I'm not talking about a difference of opinion. I'm talking about holding on to outmoded dogma in the face of rational evidence of the contrary. That's irrational behavior.
only if its crazy to believe a carpenter from nazareth was the only begotten son of god and that he rose from the dead to save us from our sins. sure it sounds like the babble of madmen but near 2 billion folks buy it, and i doubt the magority are insane.

No. I don't think so.

And to everyone who says "Everyone is racist blah blah," that's bullshit.
my how articulate.... drool much :p

Sociopathy is a mental disorder, ignorance is not. While racism is somewhere inbetween the two, it mainly stems from the latter.

Sociopathy is a mental disorder, ignorance is not. While racism is somewhere inbetween the two, it mainly stems from the latter.
i would argue its more misuducation than ignorance. people always assume the neo nazis are lacking in the education an average individual receives, but this is not true. they have simply rejected that portion of conventional education which deals with race and instead accepted the fringe teachings of their ideological fellows. within the context of their own ideology they are often quite well read. its just that what they have read all supports their own extreme position. what the rest of society has to say about the issue is all rejected as enemy propaganda.

i would argue its more misuducation than ignorance. people always assume the neo nazis are lacking in the education an average individual receives, but this is not true. they have simply rejected that portion of conventional education which deals with race and instead accepted the fringe teachings of their ideological fellows. within the context of their own ideology they are often quite well read. its just that what they have read all supports their own extreme position. what the rest of society has to say about the issue is all rejected as enemy propaganda.

Miseducation is just another cause of ignorance. It includes both being uneducated and miseducated.

Racism in the young is a learned mindset, usually from either parents or peers. No one is born a racist - as far as I can tell. Racism in older so-called adults stems from a myriad range of sources but genrally stems from some inner insecurity or intolerance. It can also come from being the recipient of violence or injustice by another group. But it isn't a mental illness.

As far as someone still thinking the Earth is flat or that the earth or the sun is the center of the universe, that's just someone suffering from either a lack of education or a terminal case of dumbassanasia. I suppose some kinds of mental disorders could cause one to break with reality and believe these to be true, but it's not the same thing as racism.

As far as Defense lawyers go, there are good ones and bad ones. Same for all people in all professions. The bad ones give the good ones a bad reputation. Just the facts of life. Although, there do seem to be quite a few more lawyer jokes than, say, librarian jokes. But there are more dumb blonde jokes than lawyer jokes. Go figure.

It doesn't really fit the DSM-IV's Diagnostic Criteria
Personality Disorders (http://mysite.verizon.net/res7oqx1/id16.html). However, some racists do exhibit some of the characteristics associated with paranoid, antisocial, and borderline personality disorders.

As far as Defense lawyers go, there are good ones and bad ones. Same for all people in all professions. The bad ones give the good ones a bad reputation. Just the facts of life. Although, there do seem to be quite a few more lawyer jokes than, say, librarian jokes. But there are more dumb blonde jokes than lawyer jokes. Go figure.

That's because there are really NO lawyer jokes, they are all true stories. :D

But there are more dumb blonde jokes than lawyer jokes. Go figure.

Easy. Law is the worlds's second oldest profession.

Although I am very against rascism, and I am prejudice against rascists, I have to say that, no, rascism is only an opinion, a very bad opinion. see, if that were the way things worked, you could consider republicans mentally ill (I sometimes do) :rolleyes:

Easy. Law is the worlds's second oldest profession.

LOL! Nice!

A lawyer walked into bar - but that was entirely his fault. My client just happened to be standing there holding this alleged bar. You can't blame my client for this discoordinated, discombobulated, and discongruous mans reckless walking behaviour! Ladies and gnetlemen of the jury, if the bar does not fit you must aquit!

Look at the monkey. Look at the silly little monkey.

or better yet...

THE CHEWBACCA DEFENSE!!