NationStates Jolt Archive

Say Canada was declared war upon by a hostile nation, and several provinces are victims of intended invasion. The war is fought, millions die, allies win, etc. etc.

Would you still demand free healthcare over your own security? Even if you know that the U.S. and the U.N. cannot possibly save you all the time? Even if you know that your military isn't exactly the strongest in the world?

Not implying anything, I just wanna know if Canadians feel like healthcare beats national security. And I don't mean our American style of national security, mind you.

National security, in other words, Security of the nation, is the only assurance we have of our freedom and so National security is freedom. Most any country in the world gives inmates, be they violent, political or otherwise, a reasonable amount of free health care and yet any inmate not in prison exclusively for the benefit of shelter and 3 square meals a day would take freedom first. Any person who won’t take freedom first is a sheep - happy to be tended to by any Shepard. My nation would be happy to give you free health care if you’ll be my bitch.

Baahhh!

Personaly I would like canada to beef up the military. However the state of healthcare isnt all it's cracked up to be.

I'm not Canadian, but common sense says National Security. All you Canadians who voted healthcare, you're idiots. You won't need healthcare when you're dead, lol. And I hate Bush. I'm just using common sense. It's sad that almost half the people voted healthcare first. I realize the poll is early, but still. Actually, even though I'm not Canadian, I voted. I voted for national security. So that means really, as many people voted for each. That's sad. Really sad.

EDIT: HOLY SHIT! THIS IS PATHETIC! YOU PEOPLE ARE STUPID!

I'm not Canadian, but common sense says National Security. All you Canadians who voted healthcare, you're idiots. You won't need healthcare when you're dead, lol. And I hate Bush. I'm just using common sense. It's sad that almost half the people voted healthcare first. I realize the poll is early, but still. Actually, even though I'm not Canadian, I voted. I voted for national security. So that means really, as many people voted for each. That's sad. Really sad.

Most likely unless Canada does something stupid, they shouldn't get invaded.

Most likely unless Canada does something stupid, they shouldn't get invaded.

Exactly... no one WANTS to invade Canada because we don't do anything to anyone except we usually end up going in and cleaning up after *other countries* blow them up and we give them aid so the citizens can actually survive. Hence, we are loved.

Just because I feel like bragging, in the war of 1812, Canada beat up the USA. Technically they basically said it was a "draw" but in the end we burned down the White House and then shortly after they basically said "Actually we don't quite NEED that land..." :P I felt the need to go egotistical about Canada darnit.

Ideally, I think that healthcare over national security (ie. an army) is something I would much rather support. Canada is a huge amount of land with a proportionally small population and so defending our land is something that would be very difficult. However, if Canadians continue to try and stay out of the policies of other nations and we don't start invading nations, there would be very little reason to have a strong military.

I would rather have a healthcare system that could help all people than create a military that promotes war, etc.

in the war of 1812, Canada beat up the USA.

Yes, because Canada was not a country until 1867. Until then it was a domain of the United Kingdom. Those were British redcoats, fool!

The Chesapeake Campaign was carried out between Aug 19-29, 1814, under the command of British generals Sir Alexander Cochrane and Robert Ross. The American militia that had gathered in Bladensburg, Maryland were handily defeated by the British, and the redcoats torched Washington, DC on August 24. After the Capitol had been captured, the British moved on Baltimore, Maryland, but were unable to overcome Fort McHenry in early Sepetember. Further British campaigns were equally unsuccessful, notably the Battle of New Orleans. This particular battle, committed 1 and 7 January 1815 and the last in the War of 1812, (British-American War to you Europeans) was actually fought after the Treaty of Ghent was signed on 24 December 1814.

Please note that I have said British and American all the way through. There was no Canada nor Canadians. These were professional British troops in His Majesty's , King George III, Army. Know your history, fool!

Just because I feel like bragging, in the war of 1812, Canada beat up the USA. Technically they basically said it was a "draw" but in the end we burned down the White House and then shortly after they basically said "Actually we don't quite NEED that land..." :P I felt the need to go egotistical about Canada darnit.
*sigh*

The War of 1812 is like it sounds, A WAR TWO CENTURIES AGO! We were young, you were British, you were stronger, we were finding ways to increase our power.

Oh but guess what, well done burning down the White House. We're still here!

And then the Brits said "Well...we didn't need to swipe away those American sailors anyway" and signed an agreement to stop the war with the son they could not handle.

Oh, I know it has 0% baring on today and it was a shameful display of random bragging...but I also said that before/after I said it. Sorry if I offended anyone for it was in pure fun...other than in hockey we haven't beaten the USA at much recently so I felt the need to do that.

That post wouldn't be around either if there was hockey...I'd be too distracted watching it to make the post!

Oh, I know it has 0% baring on today and it was a shameful display of random bragging...but I also said that before/after I said it. Sorry if I offended anyone for it was in pure fun...other than in hockey we haven't beaten the USA at much recently so I felt the need to do that.

That post wouldn't be around either if there was hockey...I'd be too distracted watching it to make the post!
yeah no I get twitchy easy in a place where Americans are constantly told to be obnoxious, and then a non-American gets obnoxious on an American. Sorry.

Anyway, not wanting this to be an American vs. Canadian topic...

I'm not sure exactly where you see a major lapse in National Security.....I will grant you that Canada does not exactly have a strong military, nor does it have a powerful arsenal, but exactly which breach of security have we needed one for? Canadians don't live in fear of terror attacks (or shouldn't anyway). Our social programs are a large part of our Canadian Identity. My brother lives in Texas and we have very different concerns in our daily lives.

A strong military defense is necessary for a militarily aggressive nation, Canada just isn't one of those. Our foreign policy tends toward Peacekeeping missions and Aid. Our internal military is trained for rescue missions and containment, but only really trains for assault with small tactical units.

It's been said before and will be said again.......What exactly do we need protection from?

It seems the most danger to us comes from standing next to the toughest kid in the schoolyard. A little bump from him once in awhile and a little collateral damage when the other children retaliate.

Having a huge military presence can't stop the nutcases of the world from trying to harm you.

On that note, I vote for social programs over large military.

***thank you and good night***

It seems the most danger to us comes from standing next to the toughest kid in the schoolyard. A little bump from him once in awhile and a little collateral damage when the other children retaliate.

That and a few militant Sikhs in Vancouver. I would argue for some overly-enterprising Hong Kong businessmen too, but they mostly went home.

Ge-Ren

Canada has enough sense not to anger people so it has no enemies. It only has one neighbour (USA) which it is on great terms with. Canada is big and cold with a sparse population, the enemy would be out of gas before they reached anything worthwhile to take over.

A large military would be useless since it would be 'defending' us against imaginary enemies. Therefore, the money is better spent in healthcare.

Well, look at the Costa Ricans. They don't even have a military, and they are located in what at least was a very volatile region. I'm not really sure how it is right now. I should, but I don't. >.>

Canada has enough sense not to anger people so it has no enemies. It only has one neighbour (USA) which it is on great terms with. Canada is big and cold with a sparse population, the enemy would be out of gas before they reached anything worthwhile to take over.

A large military would be useless since it would be 'defending' us against imaginary enemies. Therefore, the money is better spent in healthcare.
You people don't get the point. Terrorist care little about what you "do" to them. They care about what you stand for. If you actually listen to Bin Laden, he doesn't attack America because of its actions; he attacks it because he wants to establish a global fundamentalist state. The only reason Canada hasn't been attacked is because terrorists find it as an easy funnel into the US, since it is laughably easy to obtain refugee status. So they make Canada feel safe so they can attack your neighbor.

Should ‘first nations people’ that is the indigenous people of what is now known as Canada have instituted a health care system over and above national security?

Should the Tibetens have been more concerned with health care than their own security?

Should the Africans who were captured and sold as slaves have been more concerned with health care than their security?

What about the indigenous people of Australia, the USA, South America? Weren’t they minding their own business, not offending anyone, happy to just share the land and be neighbourly?

I’m sure the Greeks thought their country should have been more concerned with health care before the Turks conquered them and dominated them for 500 years.

Perhaps Saddam Hussein should have instituted National Health Care instead of defence. I doubt the Americans would have crushed him. Instead they’d have been crushing the new Iranian government that had just taken over Iraq.

The fact is that every nation in the world takes actions in the realm of security of their nation. It’s fundamental. If you find a beautiful island with a mountain of gold and an endless well of oil one of the first questions you need to ask yourself is ‘how am I going to make sure it all stays mine?’ and not ‘Where should I build the nationally funded hospital?’

If you really think Canada is special because we’re a friendly and peaceful nation you really need to turn off the TV and read a history book or two, even current events would help. Currently, Russia is believed to have tripled its military expenditures under Putin and Canada is all that stands between them and the USA. China is growing both economically and militarily at an alarming rate with plans to have nuclear weapons that can reach North America. (Do you think their not pissed about their lack of control over Taiwan because of American involvement?) In the Middle East a huge faction of religious hatred is aligning against the United States and free nations with liberal ideals similar to those in Canada. (Women – where do I start?, gays, sex and promiscuity, atheism) There are countless nuclear bombs poorly guarded and unaccounted for across Russia. People are floating into Canada on crappy rafts with refugees, why can’t they do the same thing with a nuclear bomb in a crate?

What the hell is government for if not to protect and united us?

Actually, the US and Canada aren't exactly on "great terms". Our president is viciously mocked by the Canadian media, and 40% of Canadians think the US is evil!

[...]and 40% of Canadians think the US is evil!

Correction: we think the US ADMINISTRATION is evil.

I have no bone to pick with americans at large. I would, however, like to have a little discussion with those who leads your country through needless wars and lies to their electors. You know, the sort of discussion where they're being beaten senseless by a mob of angry Canucks :P

Seriously though, I, as well as many other Canadians I know, are more than infuriated by the fact that the morons in charge in the US administration almost dragged us in this meaningless war.

But other than that we like you fine :P

Don't worry too much about the massive teasing of your government, we do it a shytload to our own too. I'd say it's about 50/50.

Being a Canadian, I was shocked to chat with a good friend of mine (also Canadian) who's studying international political science (at Wilfrid Laurier university - I'm at the big school down the street, University of Waterloo). She said she wouldn't vote for the Conservatives in the last federal election because they wanted to increase military spending. Why is that a problem?

Because Canada is a "peacekeeping" nation, and we should focus on that, and not warmongering.

The REAL problem with Canadians is ignorance. Flat out. Ask your average Canadian what happened at the Medak Pocket - I guarantee 99% of Americans won't know, and a very tiny amount of Canadians do. But it was, what, 1994? And a Canadian peacekeeping unit clashed with a Croatian armoured brigade?

That's the reality of peacekeeping these days, but your average Canadian doesn't understand this. I do. I support beefing up our armed forces - a lot. They need to be able to take on these foes.

Do we need F-16s/F-15s/F-22s? Do we need aircraft carriers? Do we need a fleet of Abrams MBTs? No, certainly not. We don't need tanks, technically. We don't need powerful supersonic aircraft.

We need RELIABLE transports, airborne and naval. We need more troops so our units don't get exhausted so easily on their rotations. We need a massive build up in our military - not to make war but to try and keep peace.

Our nation may have become one of the great Blue Beret nations but our contributions to that cause have been mediocre lately. Bangladesh sends 5,000, we send... 1?

Most Canadians are, honest to God, stuck in the "Don't let anyone touch health care, they want to turn it into the heartless American system". It's our sacred cow. But if we want to continue doing other things we're proud of, we need to stop being stupid about how the world works. We might not tag along with our American allies, but that doesn't mean we can be naive about doing what we want to do.

There's also a great deal of Canadians who think the war WAS justified - one right here. I did a paper for my Law class, successfully arguing the war was legal. I also believe it's morally right.

Unless you've read those Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch and Physicians for Human Rights reports and are able to dismiss them?

I'm speaking half-hypothetically and half-realistic.

You can tell yourselves that the government will talk it's way out of everything, it's not going to come true once the terrorists have found a hole in your nation. It's not going to be true once a nuclear war begins. It's not going to be true once the U.S. collapses.

Think the Chinese Generals in 2050 are going to go, "Well...we'll attack America and Mexico, but not Canada. Those Canadians are great talkers. And they have a killer healthcare system."

Or you think the future Nazi Germany Führer will say, "Yeah, those Canadians....damn they really have great international policies. I'm feeling nice today, let's not invade Canada. We'll leave em out in our quest for world domination."


But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe your enemies will overlook you guys and instead focus on us, the Americans, instead.

Don't come crying to us when you do get invaded, however.

EDIT: Maybe that was a bit too tough...

Say Canada was declared war upon by a hostile nation, and several provinces are victims of intended invasion. The war is fought, millions die, allies win, etc. etc.

Would you still demand free healthcare over your own security? Even if you know that the U.S. and the U.N. cannot possibly save you all the time? Even if you know that your military isn't exactly the strongest in the world?

Not implying anything, I just wanna know if Canadians feel like healthcare beats national security. And I don't mean our American style of national security, mind you.
Who says you can't have a strong military AND universal healthcare? The US should not be the glorified example of military spending because:

1.The US spends more on the military than the next 20 nations below it
2.The US spends SIX TIMES more on its military than the number two country, Russia

Yet we still can't find away to properly secure our troops when we go to war :rolleyes:

Correction: we think the US ADMINISTRATION is evil.

I have no bone to pick with americans at large. I would, however, like to have a little discussion with those who leads your country through needless wars and lies to their electors. You know, the sort of discussion where they're being beaten senseless by a mob of angry Canucks :P

Seriously though, I, as well as many other Canadians I know, are more than infuriated by the fact that the morons in charge in the US administration almost dragged us in this meaningless war.
An American who agrees

Who says you can't have a strong military AND universal healthcare? The US should not be the glorified example of military spending because:

1.The US spends more on the military than the next 20 nations below it
2.The US spends SIX TIMES more on its military than the number two country, Russia

Yet we still can't find away to properly secure our troops when we go to war :rolleyes:
The US is also the only superpower and needs it's as much or more than any other nation.

And we can't find ways to secure our troops for war because of the government. Blame them.

Healthcare. We aren't in any position to be invaded. We have too many friends in the international community. We don't really have anything that people generally invade countries for, except for vast expanses of turf.

Well, I go both ways.
Beacuse.. unless someone's invading BC, which no one in Canada will care about because BC is worthless. Then they're going to invade from the east, meaning Nova Scotia first.
And I happen to live in Nova Scotia.
Plus, I don't know how many of you realise just how many people here in NS are in the reserves. We have a very small infantry contingent here from the regular army, but comming out of high school, 3 out of every 5 people are in the reserves. And one out of every 5 are going to join.
Let's not forget that about 75% of all Nova Scotian house holds own one rifle, with 50% of all house holds owning more then one.
And with the ammount of our measly economy in the Fishing, Agriculture, and mining industries, as well as the majority of people living "outside the city", we have quite a good base for a militia.
Add to that Nova Scotians really don't like to be invaded (I remind you of invasions by both the British and French, wars fought by them on NS soil, as well as NS happens to be the most heavily defended piece of land around... or was, Hitler's Atlantic Wall was strongly based off of pre-WW2 NS coastal defences, and Halifax Harbor at the end of WW2 had no less then 22 fortresses tasked with defending the harbour.)

I'd piety any invasion force comming through Nova Scotia specificly because of that, and Guerilla tactics.
You don't need an army to defende yourself, but one is nice.
Plus, I like being able to go to the hospital any time I need to even though I'm poor.

You can tell yourselves that the government will talk it's way out of everything, it's not going to come true once the terrorists have found a hole in your nation. It's not going to be true once a nuclear war begins. It's not going to be true once the U.S. collapses.



The USA has the largest military budget per capita in the world.......and no where NEAR the area to cover that Canada does. That said, terrorists found a 'hole' in their defenses. Canada is more then double the size with less then a tenth of the population. Short of spending TRILLIONS of dollars (that we don't have) on military, there is no chance of ever properly defending the Great White North.

With the defenses we could afford, it would be better just to increase our limited capabilities in the areas of Search and Rescue.

Wishing Canada would beef up its military so that the USA doesn't feel unprotected to the north......seems a little ironic to me.

This choice is not accepting the politcal realities of the world we live in. Many first world countries do not have to sacrifice a single measure of security to provide proper health care to thier citizens.

Well, I go both ways.
Beacuse.. unless someone's invading BC, which no one in Canada will care about because BC is worthless.

Wow........I really hope that is a joke. It's almost like the pinkie on your left hand saying that the index finger on your right hand is worthless.

We east coasters like to make fun of BC because you get all the nice weather (except the rain you get...it rained a crap load the near-month I was there).

just have an open ended low gov. country (yay capitalism). There'd eventually be a mercenary trade and weapons, and prostitution, and so on... everything you need to make an army go.

We east coasters like to make fun of BC because you get all the nice weather (except the rain you get...it rained a crap load the near-month I was there).

Fair enough....I will accept it as 'ribbing' and move along. As for rain, we don't get very much on Vancouver Island.....but the mainland gets dumped on every year

Exactly... no one WANTS to invade Canada because we don't do anything to anyone except we usually end up going in and cleaning up after *other countries* blow them up and we give them aid so the citizens can actually survive. Hence, we are loved.

Just because I feel like bragging, in the war of 1812, Canada beat up the USA. Technically they basically said it was a "draw" but in the end we burned down the White House and then shortly after they basically said "Actually we don't quite NEED that land..." :P I felt the need to go egotistical about Canada darnit.

Canadians participated, but the troops that burnt the White House were mostly British. As in, directly over from Britain, not British residents of Canada.

Well, our military is a piece of shit and all 35 million of us know it but we dont want to do anything to fix it. Our health care system is in trouble too, although I hope were doing something to fix it. Either way, if our freedom ment we need to choose military over health care, so be it. Id rather be free and work on fixing health care then be enslaved by another nation and have no health care at all or very mediocore service.

Say Canada was declared war upon by a hostile nation, and several provinces are victims of intended invasion. The war is fought, millions die, allies win, etc. etc.

Would you still demand free healthcare over your own security? Even if you know that the U.S. and the U.N. cannot possibly save you all the time? Even if you know that your military isn't exactly the strongest in the world?

I voted for national security of course, however the question is really not an issue. Canada is a rich enough country to have both. For some reason our government over the last few decades has preferred the savings account style government. Canada has had surplus budgets for a decade now. If in the event we need a lot of cash fast, we have it. We wouldn't even need to borrow it. That is some thing the U.S.A. can't claim. Canada has also had trade surplus for even longer. Now of course we still have a national debt, as do most countries. However no where near the per capita rate as say the U.S. does. Canada has money to spare... it's just getting them to spend it. So, if a national security problem did arise, we would have the money to deal with it, without trading our health care in for it.

Canadians participated, but the troops that burnt the White House were mostly British. As in, directly over from Britain, not British residents of Canada.

That's not true. It was the french acadians from New Brunswick that did that.

I hope we get invaded...maybe someone will nuke Toronto into something resembling an interesting place.

Yes, because Canada was not a country until 1867. Until then it was a domain of the United Kingdom. Those were British redcoats, fool!

The Chesapeake Campaign was carried out between Aug 19-29, 1814, under the command of British generals Sir Alexander Cochrane and Robert Ross. The American militia that had gathered in Bladensburg, Maryland were handily defeated by the British, and the redcoats torched Washington, DC on August 24. After the Capitol had been captured, the British moved on Baltimore, Maryland, but were unable to overcome Fort McHenry in early Sepetember. Further British campaigns were equally unsuccessful, notably the Battle of New Orleans. This particular battle, committed 1 and 7 January 1815 and the last in the War of 1812, (British-American War to you Europeans) was actually fought after the Treaty of Ghent was signed on 24 December 1814.

Please note that I have said British and American all the way through. There was no Canada nor Canadians. These were professional British troops in His Majesty's , King George III, Army. Know your history, fool!


Your history is correct however you are leaving out the fact that American regulars did infact infact canada, taking some forts but were beaten by mainly canadien militia, including a large number of french canadiens, lol...

I voted for national security of course, however the question is really not an issue. Canada is a rich enough country to have both. For some reason our government over the last few decades has preferred the savings account style government. Canada has had surplus budgets for a decade now. If in the event we need a lot of cash fast, we have it. We wouldn't even need to borrow it. That is some thing the U.S.A. can't claim. Canada has also had trade surplus for even longer. Now of course we still have a national debt, as do most countries. However no where near the per capita rate as say the U.S. does. Canada has money to spare... it's just getting them to spend it. So, if a national security problem did arise, we would have the money to deal with it, without trading our health care in for it.
Well it's great if you have the money, but there's also time problems to deal with.

You can't suddenly decide "Yeah, let's invest into our military" once it seems like your going to be invaded. You need defenses before anyone can attack you, to save your citizens.

But it seems like you agree. I just wanted to state that.

The only country that could make a serious invasion of Canada without bypassing or being attacked by a nation of which we have mutual defense treaties (NATO for example, Japan, Korea etc.) is the US. Not only that but we are under the UK's nuclear umbrella and of course the US'. I wouldn't even rule out Russia acting on our behalf due to our strategic proximity. Assuming the US had a deathwish literally and geopolitically and did invade Canada, being long time allies we presumably have heaps of intel on the US military, incl. top secret stuff, and of course NORAD. All of this info would be passed along toute de suite, to the FRENCH and they have nukes. ;)

We are already spending a lot of Healthcare and whatever you say we do not have a free healthcare since we have to may for insurance premiums like the United States. The only difference between the healthcare systems in the United States and Canada is that Hospitals are not privatized and their owned by the provincal government.

I personally think National Security is more important in the current century, with the ongoing terror threat we haven't been striked yet. I think the budget for the Canadian Forces should increase drastically. We may live on the same continent with the only Super Power in the world but the United States has always been known as the sleeping elephant in Canadian Foreign Policy.

We are already spending a lot of Healthcare and whatever you say we do not have a free healthcare since we have to may for insurance premiums like the United States. The only difference between the healthcare systems in the United States and Canada is that Hospitals are not privatized and their owned by the provincal government.

There is actually quite a large difference in Canadian vs. U.S. healthcare, besides privatization, but I won't give you a Canadian healthcare 101 lesson vs. U.S. healthcare as I don't really have time.

There is one thing that is true, it's not free per se. It's built into the taxes we pay. The same taxes that wouldn't change if it wasn't there. Nothing in life is truly free, some one, some where pays for it. However for the people who can't afford to pay for it, it is free.

I'm not Canadian, but common sense says National Security. All you Canadians who voted healthcare, you're idiots. You won't need healthcare when you're dead, lol. And I hate Bush. I'm just using common sense. It's sad that almost half the people voted healthcare first. I realize the poll is early, but still. Actually, even though I'm not Canadian, I voted. I voted for national security. So that means really, as many people voted for each. That's sad. Really sad.

EDIT: HOLY SHIT! THIS IS PATHETIC! YOU PEOPLE ARE STUPID!

Let me get this straight...
Without even having heard their arguments, you have decided that they are stupid? Your way is the only way?

I take offense at being called idiot. Call me crazy, but I voted for healthcare. Why?

Simple, we make alliances. If someone attacked and took some foothold in Canada, we would have a great many friends who would come to our rescue. We made sure of that. We don't really need all that spending on security because our allies are doing the spending for both of us. In the meantime, we invest in other things that we pass along. I'm fine with that. I don't think that, if we somehow decided to beef up our military and get the 20 years of peace needed for our investments to come to fruittion, it would matter since the only threats are terrorism which is not stopped by an impressive arsenal and other countries who know what to expect and have prepared accordingly.

However, the hypothetical question is loaded as hell. If we were under attack, I don't think we would have answered healthcare as war tends to change one's perspective.

Anyway to come back to Roma Islamica's comment: If your style of discussion is treating the other side as stupid straight off the bat, I can tell you you won't go far.

And we can't find ways to secure our troops for war because of the government. Blame them.
I WAS blaming the government!

Roma is just jealous we live in a better off country right now then him.