NationStates Jolt Archive

This mainly focuses on Christianity, though it might apply to Judaism and Islam as well.
Anyway, we are told that God is a very loving and accepting being, yet he will cast those who do not believe in him into the flames of Hell for all eternity regardless of how nice and good a person they are, such as me. That to me contradicts itself; if God loves his people so much, why damn them for eternity? Plus, people tend not to have a real understanding of what eternity truly means; the four billion plus years Earth has existed is nothing compared to eternity, and that's just for starters.
Also, no crime deserves eternal punishment. Punishment yes, but not eternal. The most I could see would be several hundred years of punishment.
Plus, it is a known fact that the Church used Hell as a way of converting people and keeping them in check for most of Christianity's history. So Hell, to me, is a contradiction and thus cannot possibly exist.

good call,

also, I might add, many say that if you don't believe in Christ, or if you don't accept him, you will go to hell. hmm. Lets think about that for a sec. What about the millions of people who lived before Jesus Christ was born? Hello? Where did they go?

If you ask me, The concept of Hell has so many logic holes in it.

Hell hath no limit
Nor is circumscribed in one self place.
For where we are is Hell,
And where Hell is, there we shall ever be.

I personally am not Christian (not agnostic/aethiest either)

But did you know that hell is endothermic?

XD

There is no hell in Judiasm...

From what i understand about the afterlife, we first go to purgatory to be cleansed of our sins then we go in.

Basically think of it like this,

Your a 10 year old kid that just played outside with his friends and is all dirty from mud and such...what's your mom going to do? She's going to clean you up, so you won;t track dity in basically. She is not going to keep you outside just because you have some dirt on you.

Well that's my two cents. :P

good call,

also, I might add, many say that if you don't believe in Christ, or if you don't accept him, you will go to hell. hmm. Lets think about that for a sec. What about the millions of people who lived before Jesus Christ was born? Hello? Where did they go?

If you ask me, The concept of Hell has so many logic holes in it.

the people who lived before christ had to sacrifice a lamb everytime they sinned. now if a person had to do that now a days we would have no livestock. but in those days the only possession a person had was their livestock and their beleif in god. now god loves you with all his heart beleive it or not, but its up to you to determine whether you go to heaven or hell..a man kills another man, in doing so he 1 breaks the 10 commandments and 2 gets himself..lets say the death penalty, he has at least 20 years of appeals to accept christ. and if he does within that time, then he may or may not go to hell, if he became a true beleiver within jail then he will not be condemned to hell. each person has their own choice to follow or rebuke god, its up to you. God is the judge, you do not accept him and beleive he died for your sins and truly beleive it, then everything you did in your life is pointless.

What about the millions of people who lived before Jesus Christ was born? Hello? Where did they go?


According to Dante they went to Limbo, a few of them (including Moses) were later taken by Christ to heavan

Hell is, a concept which many non Christians find hard to get their heads around. This is to the best of my understanding, how it works so I will do my best to make it clear.

When Non Christians die, they "lie in wait" for judgement day (note this is not purgetory, which I dont believe exists). Their souls esentially do not move

When Christians die, they go to heaven. However they too wait till judgement day.

On judgement day you are judged (seems logical). I am not God so I dont know the criteria exactly. The only two the Bible makes clear are that you are judged on
A How you respond to God/Jesus etc
B How you respond to those on Earth who need your help (poor etc)
However I suspect their are other critera, I just dont know what they are

Now as for your point "no crime deserves eternal punishment", the "Crime" essentialy is completely rejecting Jesus and what he did for you. When he died, it changed things. Before, the wages of sin = death. No question. And not just normal death but spirtiual death. In other words, had Jesus not died, everyone would have gone to hell at judgement day. But now, with Jesus's death, their is another option. We can believe and be saved, in other words not go to hell. As for your idea that the punishment is too severe, I say that spending your entrie life rejecting what Jesus went through is a serious crime to God. After all it only takes a moment to accept him. And consider what he went through to give you that choice, the Crucifixtion. Anyone who has seen the Passion of the Christ will know it was not a pleasent or easy afair. I hope that answers your querys. Please post again if you still have problems.

also we know that when some people die (almost) then come back to life they sometimes have (i can't remeber the name its in a book some where) near death experiences and no-one ever sees hell they only see heaven and hear laughter and lights at the end of a tunnel. i can't rember any refrences to hell i even think that a criminal had one but still heard his family laughing.

Hell is, a concept which many non Christians find hard to get their heads around. This is to the best of my understanding, how it works so I will do my best to make it clear.

When Non Christians die, they "lie in wait" for judgement day (note this is not purgetory, which I dont believe exists). Their souls esentially do not move

When Christians die, they go to heaven. However they too wait till judgement day.

On judgement day you are judged (seems logical). I am not God so I dont know the criteria exactly. The only two the Bible makes clear are that you are judged on
A How you respond to God/Jesus etc
B How you respond to those on Earth who need your help (poor etc)
However I suspect their are other critera, I just dont know what they are

Now as for your point "no crime deserves eternal punishment", the "Crime" essentialy is completely rejecting Jesus and what he did for you. When he died, it changed things. Before, the wages of sin = death. No question. And not just normal death but spirtiual death. In other words, had Jesus not died, everyone would have gone to hell at judgement day. But now, with Jesus's death, their is another option. We can believe and be saved, in other words not go to hell. As for your idea that the punishment is too severe, I say that spending your entrie life rejecting what Jesus went through is a serious crime to God. After all it only takes a moment to accept him. And consider what he went through to give you that choice, the Crucifixtion. Anyone who has seen the Passion of the Christ will know it was not a pleasent or easy afair. I hope that answers your querys. Please post again if you still have problems.
My point is that Hell is accepted by most as a place of eternal damnation for those who sin. Refusal to accept God should not be a reason to punish someone eternally. Again, most people can't wrap their head around the concept of eternity. I refuse to accept that Jesus was the son of God because I have yet to see any real proof of such. Jesus existed, but he was not the son of God.

the people who lived before christ had to sacrifice a lamb everytime they sinned. now if a person had to do that now a days we would have no livestock. but in those days the only possession a person had was their livestock and their beleif in god. now god loves you with all his heart beleive it or not, but its up to you to determine whether you go to heaven or hell..a man kills another man, in doing so he 1 breaks the 10 commandments and 2 gets himself..lets say the death penalty, he has at least 20 years of appeals to accept christ. and if he does within that time, then he may or may not go to hell, if he became a true beleiver within jail then he will not be condemned to hell. each person has their own choice to follow or rebuke god, its up to you. God is the judge, you do not accept him and beleive he died for your sins and truly beleive it, then everything you did in your life is pointless.

See, that's something I, as an agnostic, have a problem with. I find it very unsettling that a man who repeatedly raped then murdered little girls could get a free pass to heavens if he started believing in Jesus while in the death row, while I, on the other, trying to live as good a life as I can and helping and caring for those around me, would go straight to hell because I'm not sure if I believe in God or not, and that I can't seem to be made to care.

I find it most contradictory. Why, if God is all-forgiving, can he not forgive my inability to believe in him? Why, if he is just, is that man going to Heaven and I am not?

Just some random thoughts.

My point is that Hell is accepted by most as a place of eternal damnation for those who sin. Refusal to accept God should not be a reason to punish someone eternally. [/QOUTE]

Well, God can't bring anyone into his home who doesn't truly believe in him... also he can't bring unpure people into heaven because it would make him and his 'household' impure. So God then has no choice but to send them to hell because they have to go somewhere...

[QOUTE=PIcaRDMPCIA] Again, most people can't wrap their head around the concept of eternity. I refuse to accept that Jesus was the son of God because I have yet to see any real proof of such. Jesus existed, but he was not the son of God.

The point of faith is that you believe without proof.

Hell is, a concept which many non Christians find hard to get their heads around. This is to the best of my understanding, how it works so I will do my best to make it clear.

When Non Christians die, they "lie in wait" for judgement day (note this is not purgetory, which I dont believe exists). Their souls esentially do not move

When Christians die, they go to heaven. However they too wait till judgement day.

On judgement day you are judged (seems logical). I am not God so I dont know the criteria exactly. The only two the Bible makes clear are that you are judged on
A How you respond to God/Jesus etc
B How you respond to those on Earth who need your help (poor etc)
However I suspect their are other critera, I just dont know what they are

Now as for your point "no crime deserves eternal punishment", the "Crime" essentialy is completely rejecting Jesus and what he did for you. When he died, it changed things. Before, the wages of sin = death. No question. And not just normal death but spirtiual death. In other words, had Jesus not died, everyone would have gone to hell at judgement day. But now, with Jesus's death, their is another option. We can believe and be saved, in other words not go to hell. As for your idea that the punishment is too severe, I say that spending your entrie life rejecting what Jesus went through is a serious crime to God. After all it only takes a moment to accept him. And consider what he went through to give you that choice, the Crucifixtion. Anyone who has seen the Passion of the Christ will know it was not a pleasent or easy afair. I hope that answers your querys. Please post again if you still have problems.

no, when he died things didnt change. when the church decided to write new rules is when everything changed.

Well, actually, I recently read something intriguing on this subject. No Exit by Jean-Paul Sartre shows a very, very different version of hell than you're used to. In your face, Dante! I reccomend it.

My point is that Hell is accepted by most as a place of eternal damnation for those who sin. Refusal to accept God should not be a reason to punish someone eternally. Again, most people can't wrap their head around the concept of eternity. I refuse to accept that Jesus was the son of God because I have yet to see any real proof of such. Jesus existed, but he was not the son of God.

1) No one ever said their was proof. Thats what faith is

2) Refusing to accept Jesus death to save you is like someone pulling you out of a burning building, you getting off their back and running back in (thats the Christian perspective anyway)

3) Here is a website explaining what you dont understand better, hope it helps

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html

2) Refusing to accept Jesus death to save you is like someone pulling you out of a burning building, you getting off their back and running back in (thats the Christian perspective anyway)

no different than refusing to accept the jewish position that jesus wasnt the messiah, or the muslim position that you need to believe in allah and do his bidding.

going around yelling "my god is better than your god" doesnt earn you any points nor does it make you right

That to me contradicts itself; if God loves his people so much, why damn them for eternity?

It's not like God didn't give everyone a chance. Those who genuinely did not get a chance are accounted for:

"Four will make a plea on the Day of Resurrection: A deaf man who could not hear, an insane man, a senile man and those who died in a time when there was no Messenger. So as for the deaf man, he will say, 'O my Lord, Islam came and I did not hear anything'. As for the insane he will say, 'Islâm came while the children threw dung at me'. As for the senile he will say, 'Islâm came and I could not comprehend anything'. As for the one who died in the time when there is no Messenger, he will say, 'O my Lord your Messenger did not come to me'. So their agreement will be taken that they will obey Him, then He will send a Messenger to them ordering them to enter the fire. (The prophet then said): "By Him in Whose hand my souls is, if they would enter it, it would be cool and safe for them"


Also, no crime deserves eternal punishment. Punishment yes, but not eternal.

Since you, as a human, have no true understanding of eternity and will, in fact, be gone from this world in a very short time, what gives you the authority to make that statement?

Plus, it is a known fact that the Church used Hell as a way of converting people and keeping them in check for most of Christianity's history.

Specious. Just because someone has abused something for their own gain does not make it non-existant.

going around yelling "my god is better than your god" doesnt earn you any points nor does it make you right

*standing ovation*

I understand perfectly the notion of eternity; it is because I understand it that I find eternal punishment to be unnecessary.

I understand perfectly the notion of eternity; it is because I understand it that I find eternal punishment to be unnecessary.

Then you must not understand it. A 5 year old who has been punished by sitting on the couch may believe 15 minutes to be excessive, but 15 minutes is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the day. How many teenagers have you seen gasping, "I've been waiting forever!" when, in fact, only a couple of hours have gone by?

We can no more grasp "eternity" than the 5 year old can phathom "in a little while".

InshAllah we will understand. Otherwise, it's like asking where a dream goes when you wake up.

1) No one ever said their was proof. Thats what faith is

2) Refusing to accept Jesus death to save you is like someone pulling you out of a burning building, you getting off their back and running back in (thats the Christian perspective anyway)

3) Here is a website explaining what you dont understand better, hope it helps

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/meorburn.html

My question is, how can God (if Christianity is right) punish us for not following Christianity? After all, what proof is there that Christianity is any more real than any other religion? How can we be punished for following, say, Hinduism? Most of the world is NOT Christian.

Then you must not understand it. A 5 year old who has been punished by sitting on the couch may believe 15 minutes to be excessive, but 15 minutes is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the day. How many teenagers have you seen gasping, "I've been waiting forever!" when, in fact, only a couple of hours have gone by?

We can no more grasp "eternity" than the 5 year old can phathom "in a little while".

InshAllah we will understand. Otherwise, it's like asking where a dream goes when you wake up.
Yes, I do understand it; you do not. Eternity is just that; never-ending, eternal, infinity, etc. The billions of years that Earth has existed is nothing compared to eternity, and you're telling me that there is a crime that is worth billions upon billions of years of punishment? I don't buy that.

Then you must not understand it. A 5 year old who has been punished by sitting on the couch may believe 15 minutes to be excessive, but 15 minutes is a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the day. How many teenagers have you seen gasping, "I've been waiting forever!" when, in fact, only a couple of hours have gone by?

We can no more grasp "eternity" than the 5 year old can phathom "in a little while".

InshAllah we will understand. Otherwise, it's like asking where a dream goes when you wake up.
well udner the english definition of the word, eternity is LITERALLY forever. so a punishment that lasts LITERALLY forever does not seem fitting of any, well most any, crimes

in addition: some of the criminals who deserve eternal punsihment would be accepted into heaven under the rules set forth by the church

After all it only takes a moment to accept him.

But the Bible says that's not enough.

Ps.62:12
"For you render to each one according to his works."

Mt.16:27
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Mt.19:17
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jn.5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Jas.2:17
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Jas.2:21-25
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

1 Pet.1:17
"The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work."

Rev.20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

is enough with statements like
Rom.3:28
"A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
So it's not exactly a non-contentious issue]

Yes, I do understand it; you do not. Eternity is just that; never-ending, eternal, infinity, etc. The billions of years that Earth has existed is nothing compared to eternity, and you're telling me that there is a crime that is worth billions upon billions of years of punishment? I don't buy that.

I'm not telling you there are any crimes worthy of anything. God is. If you choose to listen, great! If not, great! You do, after all, have free will.

Just as you can listen or not listen if I tell you there's a large rock flying at your head. You can choose to not listen. That's the funny thing about free will ... whether you listen or not, the rock will still hit you.

well udner the english definition of the word

Well, that may be, but Torah, the Gospel, and Qur'an were not written in English.

Keru, I take it as a given that I'll be smoking a turd in Hell.
Otherwise, I might be disappointed in the overall fairness of reality.
That, and all my friends are going there.

Well, that may be, but Torah, the Gospel, and Qur'an were not written in English.
but we are describing it in english, and using the word eternity, so unless you want to start translating

But the Bible says that's not enough.

Ps.62:12
"For you render to each one according to his works."

Mt.16:27
"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works."

Mt.19:17
"If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jn.5:29
"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Jas.2:17
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Jas.2:21-25
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

1 Pet.1:17
"The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work."

Rev.20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

is enough with statements like
Rom.3:28
"A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
So it's not exactly a non-contentious issue]

Real faith is put into pracitse. In other words, if you have true faith you will do your best to put into practise what your faith says you should.

Real faith is put into pracitse. In other words, if you have true faith you will do your best to put into practise what your faith says you should.

That's nice, but

Jas.2:17
"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

Says 'doing your best' isn't enough.

This mainly focuses on Christianity, though it might apply to Judaism and Islam as well.
Anyway, we are told that God is a very loving and accepting being, yet he will cast those who do not believe in him into the flames of Hell for all eternity regardless of how nice and good a person they are, such as me. That to me contradicts itself; if God loves his people so much, why damn them for eternity? Plus, people tend not to have a real understanding of what eternity truly means; the four billion plus years Earth has existed is nothing compared to eternity, and that's just for starters.
Also, no crime deserves eternal punishment. Punishment yes, but not eternal. The most I could see would be several hundred years of punishment.
Plus, it is a known fact that the Church used Hell as a way of converting people and keeping them in check for most of Christianity's history. So Hell, to me, is a contradiction and thus cannot possibly exist.
yeah, i'm with you on that one. no all-loving and all-good God would sentence anybody to eternal punishment for a non-eternal crime...that's not justice, that's sadism.

I think several of the responders are thinking of the concept of God allowing a hell to exist incorrectly.

God loves all od His creation. In fact he loves mankind so much that He has created a place for those who do not wish to be with Him. He will not force us to choose Him and will allow us to live eternally without Him if that is our choice.

I look at my own relationship with my children. I love all of them and would easily die for any of them. However, if one chose to want no contact with me, I would honor their wishes although it would pain me greatly.

I think several of the responders are thinking of the concept of God allowing a hell to exist incorrectly.

God loves all od His creation. In fact he loves mankind so much that He has created a place for those who do not wish to be with Him. He will not force us to choose Him and will allow us to live eternally without Him if that is our choice.

I look at my own relationship with my children. I love all of them and would easily die for any of them. However, if one chose to want no contact with me, I would honor their wishes although it would pain me greatly.
So basically, what you're saying is that Hell is just an afterlife without God.

-What happens to people who haven't gotten to the mental state where they understand morality, and the consequences of their actions? Namely, young children, and those with certain mental disorders.
-Since when is an infinate punishement justful for a finate crime?(death penalty, Hell, what have you...)
-If a person was a saint(not in the religous sense), helping the poor, aiding the sick, supporting the downtrodden, etc., but they didn't believe in God or Jesus, would they go to Hell despite having been such a good person?

Yes. I believe Hell is the afterlife where there is an absence of God. The image of a permanent place where the Devil and his helpers torment people with pitchforks is a creation of man and is not representative of the Biblical view.

You will find that most believe that there is an age of accountability in making a decision. That is why both the Catholic baptism and the protestant dedication are followed by the individual making their own decision through confirmation (or Baptism in the Protestant case).

According to the bible we are in hell, for the fallen angel was sent here to rule in darkness and then we where sent here as punishment for eve tempting adam into eating the forbbiden fruit. And if we are already in hell and its for eternity why even try to be loyal. Extremisim is the only way to be "forgiven" and even if you are the book of apocalipsis states that only people form the 12 tribes of israel will survive anyways...

To me the idea of Heaven and Hell is flawed in the first place as they are referenced by human words and human justice.

To argue that you can find punishment in part or for all of eternity for not beleiving in god or jesus is flawed, because that too relies on human judgement.

For God to exist and have created the universe he must be omnipotent, else there is not just one god.

Eitherway, I'm blowing my own horn on what I beleive here, but to me, God is Omniscient, Omnipotent and ever lasting, I think he is to most people, regardless of faith (barring agnostic or atheist of course). Therefore to me, we can never comprehend the wishes, thoughts or nature of god in the slightest, we can only recognise it as something that everything else isn't. So any idea of a religion is flawed because they assign attributes to god, when again to me, god has all attributes at the same time. He cannot be vengeful because he is all loving, he cannot be generous as he is also selfish.

This is the problem in having one god, all things, including the bad things have to come from one aspect of him/her/it otherwise they wouldn't logically exist.

God is energy(E)

Energy is everywhere, it permeates everything, and allows the ability to expand. From the energy converted from light to heat and used by you body to the mitochondia in each cell, powering and regulating energy. Energy created the universe. Could it be possible that there is a mass energy somewhere and conciousness is somehow collective through this? In this way, god is in us all, and when we die, we will return our 6 grams to the collective energy in the universe, possibly a heaven. Human comprehension and interpretation has always been the biggest impediment to religion and the possible truths behind them.

I don't know how much of that I believe, but that does mean that god=mc(2)!

God is energy(E)

Energy is everywhere, it permeates everything, and allows the ability to expand. From the energy converted from light to heat and used by you body to the mitochondia in each cell, powering and regulating energy. Energy created the universe. Could it be possible that there is a mass energy somewhere and conciousness is somehow collective through this? In this way, god is in us all, and when we die, we will return our 6 grams to the collective energy in the universe, possibly a heaven. Human comprehension and interpretation has always been the biggest impediment to religion and the possible truths behind them.

I don't know how much of that I believe, but that does mean that god=mc(2)!
6 grams? What? And, as far as I know, there are no mass-energy conversions going on inside the human body. None. No nuclear fission or fusion in the mitochondria.
...Oh, and "energy" did not create the Universe. There was a Universe, in the most ephemeral of moments immediately after the Big Bang, where matter and energy were united in...something else, at any rate. But there wasn't energy per se.

My point is that Hell is accepted by most as a place of eternal damnation for those who sin. Refusal to accept God should not be a reason to punish someone eternally. Again, most people can't wrap their head around the concept of eternity. I refuse to accept that Jesus was the son of God because I have yet to see any real proof of such. Jesus existed, but he was not the son of God.

Not all Christians, buy the idea of Hell = eternal firey torture. Personally, based on Psalms, Eccl, and Rev.(with a little help in understanding Greek from a linguist or 2) I believe that the Bible teach that "the second death" chosen by those who refuse God's gift of eternal life by Grace through faith, is simply eternal non-existance/non-consciousness/death. It is also the most merciful thing He can do for those who chose not to live according to His law of love for God and love for one's fellow created beings.

This mainly focuses on Christianity, though it might apply to Judaism and Islam as well.
Anyway, we are told that God is a very loving and accepting being, yet he will cast those who do not believe in him into the flames of Hell for all eternity regardless of how nice and good a person they are, such as me. That to me contradicts itself; if God loves his people so much, why damn them for eternity? Plus, people tend not to have a real understanding of what eternity truly means; the four billion plus years Earth has existed is nothing compared to eternity, and that's just for starters.
Also, no crime deserves eternal punishment. Punishment yes, but not eternal. The most I could see would be several hundred years of punishment.
Plus, it is a known fact that the Church used Hell as a way of converting people and keeping them in check for most of Christianity's history. So Hell, to me, is a contradiction and thus cannot possibly exist.

This teaching is different from many organized religions as they are practised today.


The root cause of wrongdoing is ignorance, and we must therefore hold fast to the tools of perception and knowledge. Good character must be taught. Light must be spread afar, so that, in the school of humanity, all may acquire the heavenly characteristics of the spirit, and see for themselves beyond any doubt that there is no fiercer hell, no more fiery abyss, than to possess a character that is evil and unsound; no more darksome pit nor loathsome torment than to show forth qualities which deserve to be condemned.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 136)

Well, the fact is, everyone has sinned somehow. Any wrongdoing is sin. God cannot tolerate sin without punishment. That's why there's Hell.

Fortunately, God sent His son Jesus Christ to save us so we don't have to go to Hell.