NationStates Jolt Archive

Never forget that we always need to insure accountability in elections at all levels. Deceptive marketing, multimillion ad blitzes, shady endorsement deals - these are to be expected. It may not be fair, of course - it never is - but we should at least try to insure elections are honest. It's been said that Kennedy won his initial election on Chicago's graveyard vote, and Bush in 2000 only by the Supreme Court.

Some people are concerned about this sort of thing. In the Ukraine, they held the election over again, and the the other guy seems to have won now. (http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13637271) This has been better covered by the media than our own electoral screwups, of course. The recount in Ohio (http://www.votecobb.org), for example, has received little mention in the mainstream media, and none in the details of the matter. You can find a fresh video on that site, btw, which is 25 minutes long and deals with what they contend is nothing short of a stolen election. Not that Kerry minds.

Of course, us online folks have been watching the Ohio recount and how it's been systematically delayed and stonewalled as much as possible, right? It's not as if those were the only problems, and not all problems are due to necessarily fraud on the parts of Republican election officials, as many have suggested; incompetence of election officials also plays a role. Take a look at North Carolina's problems. (http://ncvoter.net) FYI, the state Democratic party has control over most of this "red state," and the problems have become painstakingly clear. Resignations are in the wind, and some of the blame is being attached to the companies manufacturing the electronic voting systems. Some has been accepted by officials.

It's not a good thing if you have numerous state election results indeterminate pending recounts and re-votes (yes, voting all over again - like in the Ukraine) and some of us seem to have realized this:

America has a problem with elections. We can't run them right in our own home. I'd hope we do a better job with the upcoming Iraqi election... would be a shame if scandal broke out there. The Iraqis, of course, would probably react more visibly to evidence of voting fraud than most of our own populace.

(Doubt that the recount effort, which certainly was newsworthy as a rare act of compromise between the ideologically opposed Green and Libertarian parties, was not covered? Search. You'll find roughly five times as many hits within CNN.com and FOXNEWS.com for the Ukrainian election - which, although newsworthy, would ordinarily attract less attention from American news channels than roughly as grounded allegations of problems at home.)

even if kerry got ohio, he would still have lost.

doesnt really matter.


get over it.

even if kerry got ohio, he would still have lost.


I believe this is incorrect, but I agree that it doesn't really matter anymore. The 2004 election train has left the station.

However, I also agree that it's interesting how everybody's all excited about election problems in the Ukraine when they have similar problems a lot closer to home than that. Americans tend to be quite self-centered when it comes to news, so it IS a little strange that the Ukraine gets so much more attention than Ohio in American news...

I mean, it would be more "normal" for them to be packed FULL of stuff about Ohio while barely mentioning the Ukraine at all.

I believe this is incorrect, but I agree that it doesn't really matter anymore. The 2004 election train has left the station.

However, I also agree that it's interesting how everybody's all excited about election problems in the Ukraine when they have similar problems a lot closer to home than that. Americans tend to be quite self-centered when it comes to news, so it IS a little strange that the Ukraine gets so much more attention than Ohio in American news...

I mean, it would be more "normal" for them to be packed FULL of stuff about Ohio while barely mentioning the Ukraine at all.


rigged election in ukraine= russia happy, wanting communism again= america cuts off trade= col war 2.


thats why.

even if kerry got ohio, he would still have lost.
doesnt really matter.
get over it.
Methinks he didn't read my whole post and take all of it seriously.

The significance of investigating and auditing the 2004 election goes beyond the qualitative nature of the results (Bush winning.) If you fail to assure honest elections, you'll get screwed every time - the 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and all future elections depend on us making sure the system is honest and that all the problems that showed up in the 2004 election - including, but not limited to, precincts having too few machines, nonauditable voting machines, insecure operations (you don't hold an election on an unpatched windows box attached to an open phone line... that's sheer idiocy.)

Further, he demonstrate ignorance of the importance of Ohio. The projected electoral vote was 252-286, Bush. Subtract Ohio from the Bush column, and add it to the Kerry column, and we'd have a projected result of 272-266 - enough for Kerry to win. (In reality, it would probably be 271-266-1, as it appears at least one elector has voted for Edwards instead of Kerry.) A fairly small number of votes changed can critically change an election - we've seen this demonstrated in 2000. When the election is close, even a small change can have a dramatic effect. (At the same time... large numbers of votes in some other states could be changed with no effect. The electoral college isn't too far off from a chaotic system in this way.)

It is critically important to insure honest elections - more important than whether Bush or Kerry is president.

With regard to why the mainstream media have simply not covered the issues, I've heard some propose (claiming inside sources) that it's a top-down clampdown on the issue. Other possibilities include a fear in the news media of backlash if they repeat their intense coverage of the 2000 election, or accusations that they'll be accused of trying to "undermine a wartime president," which could carry eventual consequences.

The big problem here, is how to insure honest elections, with a country the size of America, infact even only with the population of Ukraine there is far too much going on for officials to be able to insure nothing dodgy goes on.

The most they can do is try to prevent dishonesty, only there is great material gain involved in elections, and humans being human are easily swayed by this.

To make elections more honest the best thing to do would be to take money out of politics, but only after my term as president has expired of course.

The big problem here, is how to insure honest elections, with a country the size of America, infact even only with the population of Ukraine there is far too much going on for officials to be able to insure nothing dodgy goes on.

The most they can do is try to prevent dishonesty, only there is great material gain involved in elections, and humans being human are easily swayed by this.

To make elections more honest the best thing to do would be to take money out of politics, but only after my term as president has expired of course.

bucherstan! i need your assistance in the gay issue!

which one? ill be right over.

which one? ill be right over.
why gays are a negative influence! quick, batman! we dont have much time!

The big problem here, is how to insure honest elections, with a country the size of America, infact even only with the population of Ukraine there is far too much going on for officials to be able to insure nothing dodgy goes on.

The most they can do is try to prevent dishonesty, only there is great material gain involved in elections, and humans being human are easily swayed by this.

To make elections more honest the best thing to do would be to take money out of politics, but only after my term as president has expired of course.
There are many steps that can be taken to prevent dishonesty. The harder it is to cheat an election without getting caught at it, the less cheating will happen.

Security. Auditability. Verification. Investigating possible fraud whenever it is found. All too often, we've been actively avoiding taking these measures.

I agree.. there are problems. for instance, my friend's Grandmother died 10 years ago... and for the past two elections, they recieved her voter Regestration card and she suddenly switched political sides. every election they return the card with a copy of the death certificate and next election the card reappears again for her political opponents.

They moved out of state... I wonder if she is still voting tho.

I agree.. there are problems. for instance, my friend's Grandmother died 10 years ago... and for the past two elections, they recieved her voter Regestration card and she suddenly switched political sides. every election they return the card with a copy of the death certificate and next election the card reappears again for her political opponents.

They moved out of state... I wonder if she is still voting tho.
Almost as if they don't want to bother stopping the graveyard vote... so many reforms needed, so much inaction.

Did they ever consider taking it all the way to the state board of elections, or were they just mailing it back to the county elections commissioner?

I believe this is incorrect, but I agree that it doesn't really matter anymore. The 2004 election train has left the station.

However, I also agree that it's interesting how everybody's all excited about election problems in the Ukraine when they have similar problems a lot closer to home than that. Americans tend to be quite self-centered when it comes to news, so it IS a little strange that the Ukraine gets so much more attention than Ohio in American news...

I mean, it would be more "normal" for them to be packed FULL of stuff about Ohio while barely mentioning the Ukraine at all.

i think, sadly, that the ukranian elections probably matter more to the people behind the US government than the US elections did. whoever won america was basically going to get sucked up by the system and become the tool of th powers that be. the vote was basically, do americans want to present a facade of intelligence to the world or be led by a shaved ape for the next 4 years. however, the ukraine vote holds the key to oil. what america needs is a pipeline contract and there's no way their having plans overturned by a little thing like an election. so, apply the correct pressure and BINGO new elections. new leader and more oil contracts for good ole uncle sam

Despite what people might think, this isn't a non-issue. Technically, the election results are not locked until Inaguration day. Therefore, if enough proof comes out and is accepted by the courts before then, we could still see a President Kerry. Frankly, I want to see that happen.

Take a look at North Carolina's problems. (http://ncvoter.net)
What i see is alarmist bullshit about machinised voting. Fyi, it works. The last four elections we had here (Cologne, Germany) used an electronic voting system and there was no trace of doubt about the results being correct.

What i see is alarmist bullshit about machinised voting. Fyi, it works. The last four elections we had here (Cologne, Germany) used an electronic voting system and there was no trace of doubt about the results being correct.
Yes, but your machines weren't made by Diebold who were so stupid that they left their source code available on an open site, not to mention that the machines were set to default to Bush, the machines weren't replaced when they broke in Democratic areas, and so on...

We will gladly sell you working ones. ;)

rigged election in ukraine= russia happy, wanting communism again= america cuts off trade= col war 2.


thats why.
And rigged election in Ohio = huge scandal involving Bush butt buddies who own the media. That's why.

Yes, but your machines weren't made by Diebold who were so stupid that they left their source code available on an open site, not to mention that the machines were set to default to Bush, the machines weren't replaced when they broke in Democratic areas, and so on...
And the machines in Germany aren't made by companies with ties to Christian Dominionists who want to bring America under an Old Testament-style theocracy.

Despite what people might think, this isn't a non-issue. Technically, the election results are not locked until Inaguration day. Therefore, if enough proof comes out and is accepted by the courts before then, we could still see a President Kerry. Frankly, I want to see that happen.


I believe, however, that with Kerry's concession, this is much less likely to happen.

I believe, however, that with Kerry's concession, this is much less likely to happen.
Which makes it all the more important that we get it through the courts. Kerry conceded officially because he is a good enough man to not want to put the country through the things it went through in 2000 again. Privately, however--and this I know because the webmaster of a site I work for worked with the Kerry campaign and had a chance to speak with him after the election results came in--he also believes the election was stolen and that if the proof comes through, he'll step up to the plate and withdraw his concession.