NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:

1. Higher off the ground for better visability
2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.

I don't see what the problem is with SUVs. Sure, I agree that some soccer mom shouldn't be driving one around town for no reason (or anyone for that matter), but SUVs are needed in some occasions.

We have an SUV. It is for pulling my horse's trailer, which is way too heavy for any other car we have, and for getting around the backroads where the horses are stabled during bad weather. Is there something wrong with that?

I don't see what the problem is with SUVs. Sure, I agree that some soccer mom shouldn't be driving one around town for no reason (or anyone for that matter), but SUVs are needed in some occasions.

We have an SUV. It is for pulling my horse's trailer, which is way too heavy for any other car we have, and for getting around the backroads where the horses are stabled during bad weather. Is there something wrong with that?


There are a few soccer mom's I've seen in my dad's neighborhood driving Lincoln Navigators and other large SUV's for their 2 kids...

Well, a lot of people think SUV's are complete wastes all the time, and I would like to debate that with them...

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:

1. Higher off the ground for better visability
2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.
1. Higher off the ground means higher rollover risk. Also, the worst vehicles for rear visibility are SUVs, because of their boxy construction.
2. Crash-test results vary by manufacturer. Toyota sedans are safer than most GMCs.
3. You are therefore likely to kill the inhabitant of the other car. Also, see above point.
4. Countless sedans, coupes, and wagons have all-wheel drive.
5. SUVs, even the smallest kind, get worse gas mileage than almost EVERY midsize sedan.

If you roll an SUV, you suck as a driver.
Get rear-ended by a Buick Century going around 50, then you'll want a SUV even more
Being big is fun
Gas mileage doesn't matter for those who don't worry about it, i'm sure you pay a dollar for a bottle of water

1. Higher off the ground means higher rollover risk. Also, the worst vehicles for rear visibility are SUVs, because of their boxy construction.
2. Crash-test results vary by manufacturer. Toyota sedans are safer than most GMCs.
3. You are therefore likely to kill the inhabitant of the other car. Also, see above point.
4. Countless sedans, coupes, and wagons have all-wheel drive.
5. SUVs, even the smallest kind, get worse gas mileage than almost EVERY midsize sedan.
You forgot that they are the most unsafe vehicle on the road, but that may have been covered in the higher center of weight and the crash test results, point. Otherwise that's why I don't

With the epection of Semi trucks, you have to be a really bad driver to flip any vehical!

1. Higher off the ground means higher rollover risk. Also, the worst vehicles for rear visibility are SUVs, because of their boxy construction.
2. Crash-test results vary by manufacturer. Toyota sedans are safer than most GMCs.
3. You are therefore likely to kill the inhabitant of the other car. Also, see above point.
4. Countless sedans, coupes, and wagons have all-wheel drive.
5. SUVs, even the smallest kind, get worse gas mileage than almost EVERY midsize sedan.


1. Rollovers are 3% of all accidents. Besides, SUV's have stronger frames.
2. And Toyota's are not an American car.
3. Not really, their car has crumple zones, and I get rolled over, which is better than being crushed.
4. All wheel drive is not the same. My Stepmom's Acura MDX has it, and it handles very poorly when in all wheel drive.
5. My mom's 2004 Taurus gets 20 MPG. My stepmom's 2001 MDX gets 21. My 1996 explorer gets about 19.

I will assume that those on the board who are part of the UN are more likely to be in favor of banning SUVs than those who aren't. Why? In either case, they are willing to give up control of part of their lives to people who do not know them personally, and may not have their best interests in mind.

You forgot that they are the most unsafe vehicle on the road, but that may have been covered in the higher center of weight and the crash test results, point. Otherwise that's why I don't


Ok

http://www.theautochannel.com/media/photos/geo/1997/97_geo_metro_lsi_4d.jpg

vs

http://www.lonestarauctioneers.com/auctions/JeffPar/images/Explorer%202.JPG

Whats more dangerous, a Geo Metro, or an SUV?

If you roll an SUV, you suck as a driver.
Get rear-ended by a Buick Century going around 50, then you'll want a SUV even more
Being big is fun
Gas mileage doesn't matter for those who don't worry about it, i'm sure you pay a dollar for a bottle of water
If you roll an SUV, the insurance industry sure as hell won't be surprised. Like I said above, A HONDA ACCORD GET BETTER CRASH PROTECTION THAN A CHEVY BLAZER. Gas mileage seems like nothing until you're forced to decide whether you're going to fill up your car or pay for your utilities--I'm serious it happens to people! And the whole going to war to pay for HUMMER owner's selfish needs is kinda unnecessary. The number one reason people buy SUVs is because they're feeling insecure about their manliness so they have to go 'BIG'.

I don't see what the problem is with SUVs. Sure, I agree that some soccer mom shouldn't be driving one around town for no reason (or anyone for that matter), but SUVs are needed in some occasions.

We have an SUV. It is for pulling my horse's trailer, which is way too heavy for any other car we have, and for getting around the backroads where the horses are stabled during bad weather. Is there something wrong with that?

Yes, you need the SUV to pull the absolutely-necessary horses your sister has.

Also, most people who say they need SUVs because of “bad weather” usually live in area’s like, say, Illinois, Missouri, etc., where people freak out if they get 3 inches of snow and declare it a blizzard when it’s coupled with winds “up to” 20 miles an hour. :p

Really, unless you live in North Dakota or a similar state you have no business owning an SUV. You need an SUV when: you live in a truly “rural” area (less than 15 people per square mile) that has ample amounts of snow coupled with prolonged periods of very cold temperatures (read, the temperature is negative without the wind chill factor).

Gas mileage doesn't matter for those who don't worry about it, i'm sure you pay a dollar for a bottle of water

Yes, **** the environment! The ecosystem doesn’t effect me!

I will assume that those on the board who are part of the UN are more likely to be in favor of banning SUVs than those who aren't. Why? In either case, they are willing to give up control of part of their lives to people who do not know them personally, and may not have their best interests in mind.
Nobody here wants to ban SUVs. And who the hell said anything about the UN?

1. Higher off the ground means higher rollover risk. Also, the worst vehicles for rear visibility are SUVs, because of their boxy construction.
2. Crash-test results vary by manufacturer. Toyota sedans are safer than most GMCs.
3. You are therefore likely to kill the inhabitant of the other car. Also, see above point.
4. Countless sedans, coupes, and wagons have all-wheel drive.
5. SUVs, even the smallest kind, get worse gas mileage than almost EVERY midsize sedan.
While I drive a truck (soon as you show me how to tow a 5000 + pound trailer with a sedan without excessive ware ... then I will think about switching)

Point 5 I would recommend looking at the kia sportage ... and actually comparing it to actual sedans. 20 - 23 mpg for a 4 wheel drive suv

Now that is a suv of the "smallest kind" and it places better then cars like the Bonneville of the same age ... along with half of the other sedan's out there

Don’t make absolute statements if there is not completely true

SUVs can be useful but they can also be obnoxious...my mom lives out in the country, and a 4-wheel drive SUV or pickup truck can be extremely useful especially in the winter. Something like that can tow a car like my front-wheel drive '94 Buick Skylark out of my mom's driveway, which isn't paved and has deep tire tracks and an incline at the end. That having been said, in many places SUVs just aren't very useful. I can think of a few cases where they are:

--Bad weather, as i mentioned...or bad roads
--Carrying many people, or at least the frickin' huge SUVs are
--Carrying lots of stuff, though a truck might be a better call for that

i dont know where you live if your saying you dont care about the gas, around here the cheapest you can find IF LUCKY is a 1.75$ a gallon. usually its 1.81-1.92

and you know what pulls trailers? pick ups

1. Rollovers are 3% of all accidents. Besides, SUV's have stronger frames.
2. And Toyota's are not an American car.
3. Not really, their car has crumple zones, and I get rolled over, which is better than being crushed.
4. All wheel drive is not the same. My Stepmom's Acura MDX has it, and it handles very poorly when in all wheel drive.
5. My mom's 2004 Taurus gets 20 MPG. My stepmom's 2001 MDX gets 21. My 1996 explorer gets about 19.
This brings me to my second auto point. BUY JAPANESE!
from consumerreports.org:
Overall, the most reliable vehicles continue to be those from Asian automakers. The problem rate for the newest models among all Japanese and Korean vehicles is holding steady at 12 per 100.

As the comparison tables show, Acura, Honda, Infiniti, Lexus, Mazda, and Toyota have been the most reliable makes over the past five model years, based on the average problem rates. (Those averages can mask a wide range of problem rates among individual models; reliability varies from model to model for most makes.)

As the problem rate for domestic vehicles improved slightly, the quality gap between U.S. and Asian makes narrowed slightly. Still, the average 2003 U.S. model still has 50 percent more problems than the average Japanese model.

That being said, my family owns nothing but low mileage vehicles. My mother drives an Avalanche, my father either a Silverado or a Dakota, and I drive a Jeep.

That being said, my family owns nothing but low mileage vehicles. My mother drives an Avalanche, my father either a Silverado or a Dakota, and I drive a Jeep.
Thanks for sending my cousin to Iraq and perpetuating a downward spiral of greenhouse effects.

If you roll an SUV, the insurance industry sure as hell won't be surprised. Like I said above, A HONDA ACCORD GET BETTER CRASH PROTECTION THAN A CHEVY BLAZER. Gas mileage seems like nothing until you're forced to decide whether you're going to fill up your car or pay for your utilities--I'm serious it happens to people! And the whole going to war to pay for HUMMER owner's selfish needs is kinda unnecessary. The number one reason people buy SUVs is because they're feeling insecure about their manliness so they have to go 'BIG'.

If someone doesn't have the flexability in their budget to pay for gas, its their problem. They should have bought a smaller car.

Actually, if you would read the fine print, cars that have more than a 500 lb differnce, their ratings in an accident test is not comparable.

Are you going to tell me honestly, than an SUV is more dangerous in every kind of crash?

And don't give me that stupid BS, because if that was true, every black would drive a go kart.

If someone doesn't have the flexability in their budget to pay for gas, its their problem. They should have bought a smaller car.

Actually, if you would read the fine print, cars that have more than a 500 lb differnce, their ratings in an accident test is not comparable.

Are you going to tell me honestly, than an SUV is more dangerous in every kind of crash?

And don't give me that stupid BS, because if that was true, every black would drive a go kart.
Ok, time for the racism to start...You guys are real class acts.

Yes, you need the SUV to pull the absolutely-necessary horses your sister has.

Also, most people who say they need SUVs because of “bad weather” usually live in area’s like, say, Illinois, Missouri, etc., where people freak out if they get 3 inches of snow and declare it a blizzard when it’s coupled with winds “up to” 20 miles an hour. :p

Really, unless you live in North Dakota or a similar state you have no business owning an SUV. You need an SUV when: you live in a truly “rural” area (less than 15 people per square mile) that has ample amounts of snow coupled with prolonged periods of very cold temperatures (read, the temperature is negative without the wind chill factor).



Yes, **** the environment! The ecosystem doesn’t effect me!

Mid to mid upper minnesota ... does that pass your test?
day before yesterday was - 20 f without windchill In fact I have been around when it breaks -80 to -100 f with wind

(also lived on a farm ... and while your remark about horses I do not know about his sisters situation but breading good stock and geting them to the vet can make all the difference)

Yes, you need the SUV to pull the absolutely-necessary horses your sister has.

Also, most people who say they need SUVs because of “bad weather” usually live in area’s like, say, Illinois, Missouri, etc., where people freak out if they get 3 inches of snow and declare it a blizzard when it’s coupled with winds “up to” 20 miles an hour. :p

Really, unless you live in North Dakota or a similar state you have no business owning an SUV. You need an SUV when: you live in a truly “rural” area (less than 15 people per square mile) that has ample amounts of snow coupled with prolonged periods of very cold temperatures (read, the temperature is negative without the wind chill factor).




Yes, **** the environment! The ecosystem doesn’t effect me!

I live in New England, and I drive an SUV. Today I almost got into a crash driving with my mom when there was a fraction of an inch of snow on the ground. We were in her Taurus.

Chess Squares, when you drive a car that only takes only 93 octane and gets about 15 miles to the gallon, you get used to it pretty easily.

I live in New England, and I drive an SUV. Today I almost got into a crash driving with my mom when there was a fraction of an inch of snow on the ground. We were in her Taurus.
It's a FORD goddamnit! What did you expect?!

"You guys"? If that isn't sexist, I don't know what is. ;)

Chess Squares, when you drive a car that only takes only 93 octane and gets about 15 miles to the gallon, you get used to it pretty easily.
my car gets 18 if i kick it

Yes, you need the SUV to pull the absolutely-necessary horses your sister has.
Yeah, that made a lot of sense. Read the post again.
1) They are not my sister's horses. They are only one. She is mine.
2) WTF. Do you have a problem with the fact that I own a horse? Fine, then I have a problem with the millions of people who own pet dogs.

Also, most people who say they need SUVs because of “bad weather” usually live in area’s like, say, Illinois, Missouri, etc., where people freak out if they get 3 inches of snow and declare it a blizzard when it’s coupled with winds “up to” 20 miles an hour. :p
I didn't say I needed it because of bad weather. Again, read the post. The backroad I am referring to is already nearly impassable by some cars (it isn't even a real road, just a track through the woods that the stable owner made when they built the stable farther back from the road) and once the weather turns nasty (hurricane nasty. I live in Florida. I know bad weather a lot more than I wish I did) it is incredibly hard to get back there and get the horses out.

my car gets 18 if i kick it
Wow :rolleyes: . My Prius gets 51 average year-round. Drives fine in my New England city, also--yes, even during snow.

While I drive a truck (soon as you show me how to tow a 5000 + pound trailer with a sedan without excessive ware ... then I will think about switching)

Point 5 I would recommend looking at the kia sportage ... and actually comparing it to actual sedans. 20 - 23 mpg for a 4 wheel drive suv

Now that is a suv of the "smallest kind" and it places better then cars like the Bonneville of the same age ... along with half of the other sedan's out there

Don’t make absolute statements if there is not completely true

http://www.membersls.com/2000%20Kia%20Sportage%20Red.jpg

That is not an SUV, its an ATV.

i dont know where you live if your saying you dont care about the gas, around here the cheapest you can find IF LUCKY is a 1.75$ a gallon. usually its 1.81-1.92

and you know what pulls trailers? pick ups
I agree hence why I own a pickup but I find it really annoying getting the same gas mileage as them but cant haul the people (or computer parts now …)

If I only hauled trailers I would go suv … (if I had the money to buy a new vehicle) but I will have to stick with my pickup for now

and you know what pulls trailers? pick ups

pickups cant haul a family or any cargo unless you want someone to steal it when you stop at a rest area.

I pay $30 every time to fill my explorer, usually around $1.80 a gallon.

http://www.membersls.com/2000%20Kia%20Sportage%20Red.jpg

That is not an SUV, its an ATV.
You said the smallest ... not my fault he/she used thoes qualifiers :p

edit: sorry dident mean you ... ment the origional poster ... oops

This brings me to my second auto point. BUY JAPANESE!
from consumerreports.org:
Overall, the most reliable vehicles continue to be those from Asian automakers. The problem rate for the newest models among all Japanese and Korean vehicles is holding steady at 12 per 100.

As the comparison tables show, Acura, Honda, Infiniti, Lexus, Mazda, and Toyota have been the most reliable makes over the past five model years, based on the average problem rates. (Those averages can mask a wide range of problem rates among individual models; reliability varies from model to model for most makes.)

As the problem rate for domestic vehicles improved slightly, the quality gap between U.S. and Asian makes narrowed slightly. Still, the average 2003 U.S. model still has 50 percent more problems than the average Japanese model.


Its still Jap crap. And Japan never apologized or faced charges for their crimes in WWII.

Size does not matter unless you're in the most extreme conditions. QUALITY is what matters. If you live in a rocky mountain Minnesota town, you're entitled to a big SUV. Beyond that, there are much more reasonable alternatives.

Ok, time for the racism to start...You guys are real class acts.

Don't call me a racist, because I'm not.

That being said, my family owns nothing but low mileage vehicles. My mother drives an Avalanche, my father either a Silverado or a Dakota, and I drive a Jeep.


I want an Avalanche. Space of an SUV, with cargo room of a pickup.

Its still Jap crap. And Japan never apologized or faced charges for their crimes in WWII.
Okay, more racism--I'll bet it really endears you to the rest of the world. Anyway, they apologized just as much as the U.S. did for putting Japanese-Americans in internment camps.

Wow :rolleyes: . My Prius gets 51 average year-round. Drives fine in my New England city, also--yes, even during snow.


Well, you probobly live in Boston, which gets very little snow compared to inland areas like Northern Worcester County where I live. Its hilly and snowy here.

Okay, more racism--I'll bet it really endears you to the rest of the world. Anyway, they apologized just as much as the U.S. did for putting Japanese-Americans in internment camps.

We gave them compensation. American WWII vets got nothing from the japs, and the japs never faced any war crime trials from what they did in china.

Size does not matter unless you're in the most extreme conditions. QUALITY is what matters. If you live in a rocky mountain Minnesota town, you're entitled to a big SUV. Beyond that, there are much more reasonable alternatives.
Though the Rockies are not through MN it is the farm country sort of issues that come up. I am shooting for a small suv (smaller something like xtera …) if possible … my dad just picked up a new 3500 for the work (and we are selling off most of the land this year) keeping our house on the lake. So decreased hauling but the 4 wheel drive still useful here.

Would be going to car except for family location and small trailering use …
So yeah in the end boils down to a wish for better gas milage but because of things beyond my control still going to need something 4 wheel drive

It's a FORD goddamnit! What did you expect?!


It has anti-lock brakes, and traction control, and all the other safety features. Still better than any jap crap.

Okay, more racism--I'll bet it really endears you to the rest of the world. Anyway, they apologized just as much as the U.S. did for putting Japanese-Americans in internment camps.


What about the Germans and Italians put into camps? Germans were held until 1948, 3 years after the war ended!

How the history books just ignore the internment of tens of thousands of Germans and Italians.

I want an Avalanche. Space of an SUV, with cargo room of a pickup.
Avalanches aren't terrible, but one major drawback is it's REAR VISIBILITY--jusy like I said.
from consumerreports.org:
"The payload capacity of our Avalanche was rated at 1,190 pounds, which isn't very much considering its large size.

Rear visibility is very poor."
:p

What about the Germans and Italians put into camps? Germans were held until 1948, 3 years after the war ended!
That was a mistake, too.

Wow :rolleyes: . My Prius gets 51 average year-round. Drives fine in my New England city, also--yes, even during snow.
im pretty sure they dont make cars getting 51 miles to a gallon

im pretty sure they dont make cars getting 51 miles to a gallon
They're called hybrids...

ya know what, i live in england so i dont care.we drive cars you know those things with 4 wheels.... they go forawrd and backwards if you want. and what the hell is an SUV? you been a 4x4? or a truck? jeep? whats an SUV in english?

more from consumerreports.org:
"The Tundra provided one of the most comfortable rides compared with many competing models, with good isolation from bumps. The quiet cabin is almost free of wind and road noise. Adding a 500-pound load in the bed did not affect the ride. The Tundra handles soundly, with only moderate body lean in turns. The steering is well-weighted. The Tundra was secure and easy to control at its cornering limits. It did very well on our off-road and rock-hill courses. Braking performance was impressive for a large truck. The Tundra's interior is well-constructed, with minimal panel gap and some well-fitting plastics. Most drivers found a comfortable driving position behind the tilt steering wheel, and visibility is very good. The front seats are firm and comfortable. The roomy rear seat is supportive and comfortable, with generous head and leg room for three adults. Controls are easy to use, and the instruments are clear. Cabin storage space is good. We expect reliability to be much better than average, according to our latest subscriber survey."

ya know what, i live in england so i dont care.we drive cars you know those things with 4 wheels.... they go forawrd and backwards if you want. and what the hell is an SUV? you been a 4x4? or a truck? jeep? whats an SUV in english?
Sub-
Urban assault
Vehicle

also known as sport-utility vehicle in some dialects

more from consumerreports.org:
"The Tundra provided one of the most comfortable rides compared with many competing models, with good isolation from bumps. The quiet cabin is almost free of wind and road noise. Adding a 500-pound load in the bed did not affect the ride. The Tundra handles soundly, with only moderate body lean in turns. The steering is well-weighted. The Tundra was secure and easy to control at its cornering limits. It did very well on our off-road and rock-hill courses. Braking performance was impressive for a large truck. The Tundra's interior is well-constructed, with minimal panel gap and some well-fitting plastics. Most drivers found a comfortable driving position behind the tilt steering wheel, and visibility is very good. The front seats are firm and comfortable. The roomy rear seat is supportive and comfortable, with generous head and leg room for three adults. Controls are easy to use, and the instruments are clear. Cabin storage space is good. We expect reliability to be much better than average, according to our latest subscriber survey."


I don't give a shit. Its still non-American owned. I only support people that take responsibility. You will never find me in a Japanese car unless its a friends car.

ya know what, i live in england so i dont care.we drive cars you know those things with 4 wheels.... they go forawrd and backwards if you want. and what the hell is an SUV? you been a 4x4? or a truck? jeep? whats an SUV in english?

Sport
Utility
Vehicle

Avalanches aren't terrible, but one major drawback is it's REAR VISIBILITY--jusy like I said.
from consumerreports.org:
"The payload capacity of our Avalanche was rated at 1,190 pounds, which isn't very much considering its large size.

Rear visibility is very poor."
:p


My 84 year old step grandfather has one of those. As soon as I saw it, I decided I wanted one like his.

I don't give a shit. Its still non-American owned. I only support people that take responsibility. You will never find me in a Japanese car unless its a friends car.
I'm guessing most of your clothes were made in Indonesia or China. Many of Honda an Toyota's cars are actually made in the USA.

They're called hybrids...
Yeah but the pirus is RATED at 51 on the site … is that what you actually get? Most cars test them only when they have a 20 mph tail wind :-P I know its cheep but they almost always test Ideal conditions rather then averages

3. Not really, their car has crumple zones, and I get rolled over, which is better than being crushed.
a crumple zone exists to prevent the passengers from being crushed, it crumples somewhere else thus disapating the energy that might otherwise be transfered into the passenger compartment. unless your suv has a roll cage/roll bar you don't have similar rollover protection built into the vehicle(though suvs have crumple zones, as do all modern passenger vehicles).

I'm guessing most of your clothes were made in Indonesia or China. Many of Honda an Toyota's cars are actually made in the USA.
Very true … nisan is almost 100 percent made over here …visited their plant with a model maker /engineer friend

Yeah but the pirus is RATED at 51 on the site … is that what you actually get? Most cars test them only when they have a 20 mph tail wind :-P I know its cheep but they almost always test Ideal conditions rather then averages
The EPA said it gets 51 highway 60 city--55 overall. The numbers are slightly lower because the EPAs tests are so antiquated.

Ok, I'm tired of combatting ignorance and racism here...onto a new thread!

I'm guessing most of your clothes were made in Indonesia or China. Many of Honda an Toyota's cars are actually made in the USA.


I don't have a choice where my clothes are made, but I have a choice as to where my car is from.

a crumple zone exists to prevent the passengers from being crushed, it crumples somewhere else thus disapating the energy that might otherwise be transfered into the passenger compartment. unless your suv has a roll cage/roll bar you don't have similar rollover protection built into the vehicle(though suvs have crumple zones, as do all modern passenger vehicles).
Yup energy to accelerate (or negitivly accelerate) is a formula based on both weight and rate of change

Which is decreased by crumple zones …

Hard to explain

Instead of going from 30-0 in .1 seconds you do it in lets say 1 second … that is 1/10 of the momentary force being applied (same overall but spreading it out)

Nice piece of technology passed on from racing

a crumple zone exists to prevent the passengers from being crushed, it crumples somewhere else thus disapating the energy that might otherwise be transfered into the passenger compartment. unless your suv has a roll cage/roll bar you don't have similar rollover protection built into the vehicle(though suvs have crumple zones, as do all modern passenger vehicles).


yeah, which is why everyone is safe.

I don't have a choice where my clothes are made, but I have a choice as to where my car is from.
Nisan is manufactured in USA … does that change your mind on that “jap crap” ? or are you still mad that they are not an “American” company?

Very true … nisan is almost 100 percent made over here …visited their plant with a model maker /engineer friend

Non-union, and not owned by Americans.

The EPA said it gets 51 highway 60 city--55 overall. The numbers are slightly lower because the EPAs tests are so antiquated.
Yeah I saw that on their website too

But still every car I have owned have been roughly the same if not lower then the EPA ratings but hey if ya want to argue they are backwards have fun I am not an expert on the EPA

Nisan is manufactured in USA … does that change your mind on that “jap crap” ? or are you still mad that they are not an “American” company?

Its not an American company, and not owned by americans. I consider then exploitative of peoples hardships, when they build plants in rural areas where factories have been shut down, and people have to take non-union jobs that pay $8 an hour.

I made $8.50 at my summer job last summer.

Non-union? My dad toured a union plant years ago and there were numerous TVs around for the employees' enjoyment. We want that in every plant?

Its not an American company, and not owned by americans. I consider then exploitative of peoples hardships, when they build plants in rural areas where factories have been shut down, and people have to take non-union jobs that pay $8 an hour.

I made $8.50 at my summer job last summer.
The plant we toured was union ... for the xterra line ... so?
And them creating work where other companies left does not seem exploitative

I mean they were not the cause for the shut plants (nor was the Xterra line made in a rural area)

So you would rather there be no jobs then 8.00 an hr jobs?

Non-union? My dad toured a union plant years ago and there were numerous TVs around for the employees' enjoyment. We want that in every plant?

At least unionized workers can make enough money so they don't have to swallow their pride and go on government programs to help their famlies.

In my dad's office, he being the boss, wanted to get rid of the TV, because people wanted to watch TV during lunch, rather than talk. But the workers complained and he put it back.

I was referring to television in the plant, viewable by workers on the line.

The plant we toured was union ... for the xterra line ... so?
And them creating work where other companies left does not seem exploitative

I mean they were not the cause for the shut plants (nor was the Xterra line made in a rural area)

So you would rather there be no jobs then 8.00 an hr jobs?


Ok, I'm a protectionist. I opposed outsourcing and feel America and the people in America should come first.

I know someone at my summer job that worked at a paper mill, before the work was sent to Vietnam. He lost 20 years of a pension, and his wife lost 15. He knew one guy that was a month away from retirement, and lost his enitre pension from 55 years of work.

I was referring to television in the plant, viewable by workers on the line.

So, radios shouldn't be allowed either?

Ok, I'm a protectionist. I opposed outsourcing and feel America and the people in America should come first.

I know someone at my summer job that worked at a paper mill, before the work was sent to Vietnam. He lost 20 years of a pension, and his wife lost 15. He knew one guy that was a month away from retirement, and lost his enitre pension from 55 years of work.
But its not outsourcing if their plant is in the USA …

But its not outsourcing if their plant is in the USA …

Outsourcing the manufacturing to another country left them out of a job...

They're called hybrids...
i havnt heard of any hybrids getting 51 either

I would think one person listening to country could annoy the guy next to him, who's listening to rap, and vice-versa.

Outsourcing the manufacturing to another country left them out of a job...
But we were arguing about non unionized local plants ... where did the outsorcing come from?

i havnt heard of any hybrids getting 51 either
the prius will if EPA is right

But we were arguing about non unionized local plants ... where did the outsorcing come from?


The outsourcing came from American companies, pressured by the globalist NWO walton family, which owns Wal Mart.

And don't give me that stupid BS, because if that was true, every black would drive a go kart.

Statisically speaking black guys are only 1/10" bigger then white guys, but anyways.

The CRX I'm about to buy gets 43mpg and it's 15 years old. And it's faster then just about anything in your(or anyone else on here's) garage. :p

the prius will if EPA is right

EPA tests are never right on cars

EPA tests are never right on cars
I know you covered this ... but you said the UNDER estimated

So according to that logic the prius at LEAST gets 51 ... really does not change my arguement with chess that it makes at LEAST 51

Statisically speaking black guys are only 1/10" bigger then white guys, but anyways.

The CRX I'm about to buy gets 43mpg and it's 15 years old. And it's faster then just about anything in your(or anyone else on here's) garage. :p

Speed is for the stupid and/or immature.

Feh, I'm bored. So here's how I refute each and every one of these points.

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:...being in bigger debt than everyone who doesn't have one...

1. Higher off the ground for better visability
HEAR HEAR! No one gives a crap when a midget gets run over! Or when a kid on his tricycle is running after his doggie.
2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
At the expense of the guy in the other car who gets his head smashed in by your obnoxious engine and comes home in a body bag to his wife and three kids.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
They go under the SUV, and the family taking the trip to see grandma instantly dies. Making grandma so happy she outlived her entire family.
4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
Move somewhere else
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.
err...kay thx byi?

Feh, I'm bored. So here's how I refute each and every one of these points.

...being in bigger debt than everyone who doesn't have one...


HEAR HEAR! No one gives a crap when a midget gets run over! Or when a kid on his tricycle is running after his doggie.

At the expense of the guy in the other car who gets his head smashed in by your obnoxious engine and comes home in a body bag to his wife and three kids.

They go under the SUV, and the family taking the trip to see grandma instantly dies. Making grandma so happy she outlived her entire family.

Move somewhere else

err...kay thx byi?


So everyone that needs an SUV (or better a 4 wheel drive vehicle in general …) should move?

Wow cut about ¾ of mid Minnesota’s food production and I am sure we are not the only ones … farmers not able to do their jobs and all (sorry but changing where you live just because you need different equipment is kind of stupid)

Non-union? My dad toured a union plant years ago and there were numerous TVs around for the employees' enjoyment. We want that in every plant?

Yes, yes if I worked in a manufacturing plant, I would indeed like a TV or two for breaks, or for when i'm preforming some repetitive task while working at a low-paying job with no future. Hell, a TV is the least they could do for me.


SUPPORT THE WORKERS RIGHT TO ORGANIZE!

Yes, yes if I worked in a manufacturing plant, I would indeed like a TV or two for breaks, or for when i'm preforming some repetitive task while working at a low-paying job with no future. Hell, a TV is the least they could do for me.


SUPPORT THE WORKERS RIGHT TO ORGANIZE!
Yeah but what if it becomes a safety hazard? Not paying attention to what my hands are doing seems to be a good way to get hurt specially when tools or other objects are being used

So everyone that needs an SUV (or better a 4 wheel drive vehicle in general …) should move?

Wow cut about ¾ of mid Minnesota’s food production and I am sure we are not the only ones … farmers not able to do their jobs and all (sorry but changing where you live just because you need different equipment is kind of stupid)
meh, I was just being sarcastic in just about every single point of mine. Of course it's stupid.

meh, I was just being sarcastic in just about every single point of mine. Of course it's stupid.
Fair enough :) I am just one of those “have them cause I need them” people so yeah …

Interesting article -

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

I'd discuss, but it is late here, and this isn't a subject I'm knowledgeable on anyway, so I'll just throw out a link and see whether it spawns any trains of thought.

Gas mileage doesn't matter for those who don't worry about it, i'm sure you pay a dollar for a bottle of water
The price isn't what matters, it's all the damn pollution and other shit you're putting into the air, not to mention wasting our precious oil that bush LOVES so much

Interesting article -

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

I'd discuss, but it is late here, and this isn't a subject I'm knowledgeable on anyway, so I'll just throw out a link and see whether it spawns any trains of thought.

good article, though I don't fit the typical SUV driver, because I don't care what other people think of me, to an extent. I can't really fit into a car, my mom's taurus is not comfortable.

I'm an SUV driver. It's safer for me to drive an SUV, but alot of people actually put themselves in more danger by driving them. You see, I know my truck has limits. Yes, I grip better in the ice and never slip around, but it still takes me the same amount of time to stop as you, so I'm not driving 90 down a dirt path in the ice.

SUVs are not more dangerous, they're much safer, so long as the arrogance of the driver doesn't screw it up.

I'm an SUV driver. It's safer for me to drive an SUV, but alot of people actually put themselves in more danger by driving them. You see, I know my truck has limits. Yes, I grip better in the ice and never slip around, but it still takes me the same amount of time to stop as you, so I'm not driving 90 down a dirt path in the ice.

SUVs are not more dangerous, they're much safer, so long as the arrogance of the driver doesn't screw it up.But that's the real problem as far as safety is concerned, isn't it? When I'm driving my girlfriend's compact pickup down Highway 101, I have to be on special lookout for asshole SUV druvers who don't seem to realize that they take up more of the road than most people, and I live in an area with relatively few of them. It's far worse in a place like south Florida, where everybody and their grandmother has one, and for no apparent reason (no real need for four-wheel drive in a place with no hills or ice).

I'm not for banning them--I owned a Jeep when I lived in Arkansas and it was perfect for the camping and hiking I did--but I would like to see a requirement that anyone who owns or drves one has to get a special addition to their license showing that they've been to driving school for these oversized vehicles, like a limo driver's endorsement. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Speed is for the stupid and/or immature.

Does that mean "park" is the only intelligent and/or mature mode of operation for your vehicle? :)



SUPPORT THE WORKERS RIGHT TO ORGANIZE!

You already work at an organization. That's what companies are. Organizations. You want your own organization, start your own company!

When I'm driving my girlfriend's compact pickup down Highway 101, I have to be on special lookout for asshole SUV druvers who don't seem to realize that they take up more of the road than most people

That kinda goes for any type of automobile. Stupid drivers who are assholes who don't know how to drive. As much as I'd love to blame SUV drivers the fault seems fairly evenly spread across the board. People who don't know how to drive the car they are driving (or probably any other car as well). It's rampant.

Especially on the 101!

Has anyone pointed out yet that 20,000 or so people just died in South Asia?

Ever think maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Earth's temperature is rapidly rising due in large part because boneheaded americans feel the need to only drive cars which get 10 miles per gallon contributing to the build up of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere?

That kinda goes for any type of automobile. Stupid drivers who are assholes who don't know how to drive. As much as I'd love to blame SUV drivers the fault seems fairly evenly spread across the board. People who don't know how to drive the car they are driving (or probably any other car as well). It's rampant.

Especially on the 101!
Difference is that there's less room for error when you're driving an SUV as compared to driving a smaller vehicle. You have less wiggle room in your lane when you drive a H2, you have less stopping time, and the damage you do to another car--not to mention the people in it--if you hit it is substantially greater. Sure, there are bad drivers across the board, but because of the factors I mentioned above, SUV drivers do substantially more damage and cause more injuries, in part because they don't know how to drive their vehicles and don't know just what damage they can do. All I'm asking for is a little more training for drivers.

Has anyone pointed out yet that 20,000 or so people just died in South Asia?

Ever think maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Earth's temperature is rapidly rising due in large part because boneheaded americans feel the need to only drive cars which get 10 miles per gallon contributing to the build up of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere?
Wow and here I thogught it was called an earthquake ... they are caused by global warming ... how intresting

Pfft

Why do I drive an SUV?

I have three children under the age of 3. Any parent knows that you have to haul around a ton of stuff for small children. Multiply that by three then add a low income and a 12-year-old SUV and you have my situation. I needed something big enough to haul my family around, and most used car places wanted much more than I could have afforded.

Edit: (Preventing Double Post) The comment made about global warming and it being caused by American SUV's is misleading. Do your research, and by that I mean research both sides, not just information supporting your argument. The planet has natural increases and decreases in temperatures over the last 6 billion years (or 35,000 years if your a creationist). Most of these increases are gradual (a degree or two every decade) Others are not. (Ice Age) I do agree that mankind needs to curb pollution and clean up the environment, but simply labeling the tragic loss of 14,000+ people due to an earthquake and Tsunami as being caused by global warming by people who drive SUV's is quite frankly, ludicrous.

Wow and here I thogught it was called an earthquake ... they are caused by global warming ... how intresting

Pfft

Oh shit! I got served! Should have read about the disaster! (I was living in the countryside with no internet for the last week, I just got back and was all like wow a lot of people died, I should angrily post my views without understanding the situation.)

Oh shit! I got served! Should have read about the disaster! (I was living in the countryside with no internet for the last week, I just got back and was all like wow a lot of people died, I should angrily post my views without understanding the situation.)
Lol I was going to say … I know I am a dumb American but I had not heard about the direct correlation between a slight rise in temp directly effecting plate tectonics

(I mean theoretically they could … change in balance of liquid water and all … but not an expert in the field)

Why do I drive an SUV?

I have three children under the age of 3. Any parent knows that you have to haul around a ton of stuff for small children. Mulitply that by three, add low income and a 12 year old SUV and you have my situtation. I needed something big enough to haul my family around, and most used car places wanted much more than I could have afforded.
12 year old suv? wtf? you shoudlve got one of those bad ass vans. not a minivan or caravan, a REAL van, the ones that come with curtains on the windows

@Chess-Squares

Actually it's not a van, its a Ford Explorer XLT. When I bought it, it still had the Firestone tires on it from the previous owner. I thought that was quite ironic. I've had nothing but luck with this vehicle compared to the other two I have owned. No accidents, no tickets, no major problems. I guess being a parent makes me a safer driver. Naw. ;)

@Chess-Squares

Actually it's not a van, its a Ford Explorer XLT. When I bought it, it still had the Firestone tires on it from the previous owner. I thought that was quite ironic. I've had nothing but luck with this vehicle compared to the other two I have owned. No accidents, no tickets, no major problems. I guess being a parent makes me a safer driver. Naw. ;)
i said you SHOULD HAVE gotten one of those bad ass old vans

SUVs would be cool if they were fully electric. There are a few hybrids out there though...

In Europe, a SUV would cost over $150 a tank. They're rich, but they don't need to spend 50 Bazillion dollars on a pollution factory.

I don't give a shit. Its still non-American owned. I only support people that take responsibility. You will never find me in a Japanese car unless its a friends car.

lol - because we all know Toyota and Honda are directly responsible for the entire history of Japan.

lol - because we all know Toyota and Honda are directly responsible for the entire history of Japan.

No, but I know that they are from Japan. And thats enough for me...

Has anyone pointed out yet that 20,000 or so people just died in South Asia?

Ever think maybe it has something to do with the fact that the Earth's temperature is rapidly rising due in large part because boneheaded americans feel the need to only drive cars which get 10 miles per gallon contributing to the build up of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere?

SUV's don't cause earthquakes...

No, but I know that they are from Japan. And thats enough for me...
Someone has a long memory … I prefer to choose the best product (don’t hurt that it helps our economy by being built here)

Hey don’t get me wrong I drive a Chev 1500 and I love it … but just because it has been a great truck for me does not mean different models will be as good compared to others

I choose to open my eyes and consider all the options before I buy.

SUV's don't cause earthquakes...
Um I think I said that already ... and they have already apologized (sorta)

1. Higher off the ground for better visability

Having driven a number of cars and SUVs, I can honestly say I prefer most sedans for visibility. The vertical advantage, field-of-vision-wise, is pretty negligible... and when you take your rear blind-spots into account, SUVs come off pretty bad.

2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.

Well, now that is pretty much true. However, the best cars should leave you with only minor injuries after a rear or front impact collision... and unfortunately, SUVs make driving less safe for everyone else. (Since their bumpers are higher and they tend to plow over smaller cars.) This is a serious concern for all of us.

3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.

Exactly. Very dangerous for other drivers. In all seriousness, there should be a uniform legal bumper height. It would greatly reduce injuries and death in all accidents.

4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live

Understandable, and the only part of this list that really makes sense. Of course, there are a variety of four-wheel drive vehicles available, and I would look to find the one that rates best in other factors, such as fuel-efficiency and so-on.

5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.

Wow. Your mom's car must really suck.

Wow. Your mom's car must really suck.
Some SUV get 23 + mpg ... thats not bad for a sedan

If you roll an SUV, you suck as a driver.

Maybe. But a rollover can happen to anyone, possibly in the context of an existing accident that is entirely out of the driver's control. Now, it is true that rollovers are relatively rare... but I would also bet they are among the worst kinds of accidents as far as injuries are concerned. Seat belts and airbags are designed for front and rear-end collisions. Thus, even if driving an SUV only increases your chances of a roll-over by a small amount, you should be concerned, since you are increasing your chances for the most injurious kind of accident.

Being big is fun

Sure. I have driven SUVs, I can appreciate the joy of being the big boy on the road. But the question remains whether or not the social costs and individual risks are worth the cheap thrill. If you think they are, then you still have a lot of maturing to do.

Gas mileage doesn't matter for those who don't worry about it, i'm sure you pay a dollar for a bottle of water

It is nice if you don't have to worry about gas mileage and the costs of gasoline. And ordinarily I would say, "If you can afford it, go for it." However, there are two additional considerations here besides your personal economy:

1. The environment. (Pretty self-explanatory.)
2. The cost of gas for everyone else. I am sure you are aware that economists are eternally concerned that the rising cost of gasoline may have a negative impact on the economy as a whole. Now, when you purchase an inefficient, gas-guzzling behemoth, maybe you think to yourself, "It's worth the extra money in gas." But because your vehicle's enormous consumption (along with all the others just like it) increases the demand for gasoline, you contribute to the high costs of gasoline, and therefore hurt the economy.

I really don't care what you do to yourself. I don't care if you drive a vehicle that will cost a fortune or roll over and get you killed. I do care that by driving it, you hurt the environment and the economy. It's my wallet I care about.

Some SUV get 23 + mpg ... thats not bad for a sedan

Okay... I guess I must be spoiled. I have never owned a car that gave me less than 29mpg.

It's a FORD goddamnit! What did you expect?!
No, it's cause he has shitty tires and the car probably doesn't have a limited slip diff.

Okay... I guess I must be spoiled. I have never owned a car that gave me less than 29mpg.
Hey if you are lumping suv's into one you have to take the good with the bad in sedans also

Bonneville’s
Cadillac’s
Lincolns
All the good ol boys …

No, it's cause he has shitty tires and the car probably doesn't have a limited slip diff.
And what would a limited slip diff have to do if it were a breaking situation?

Hey if you are lumping suv's into one you have to take the good with the bad in sedans also

Bonneville’s
Cadillac’s
Lincolns
All the good ol boys …

Sure thing. But I would have no problem with stricter efficiency (and emissions) standards on ALL vehicles. SUVs just happen to be a particularly problematic class... and if you can get their efficiency ratings up to par, then that is at least one less objection I have to them.

While I tend to agree with the popular perception that some sort of narcissistic personality problems may contribute to the desire for an SUV, I am not one of those people who resents them "just because," or only because I find their size aesthetically offensive. If you can fix the problems (e.g. stop hurting the environment and the demand for fossil fuels) then you can have them.

Until then, they are a detriment to the general good.

Okay... I guess I must be spoiled. I have never owned a car that gave me less than 29mpg.
We need more people like you. Buy ONLY what you need!

And what would a limited slip diff have to do if it were a breaking situation?
It wouldn't, but if the rest of the car is in working condition and you have those two things then the only reason for screwups is PEBSWAS - Problem exists between steering wheel and seat.

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:

1. Higher off the ground for better visability
2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.

I'm not going through all nine pages to see if this hasn't been stated before but there is documented evidence that the higher you are above the road the slower you tend to think you are driving. (One of the reasons sports cars are so "sporty" is you drive really close to the road.) If you are not a professional truck or bus driver, this can lul you into a false sense of safety and cause you to generally drive in a much more risky manner than ordinary cars.

Most people don't understand 4 wheel drive, and as a result they are more damgerous on the road with such vechicles than without. Combined with the general nature of people to drive faster in them, their higher center of gravity, the combination can be very deadly in snow or ice conditions where the SUV can skid out of control or even roll over.

This isn't to say that there aren't valid reasons to own an SUV, and that one cannot drive safely in an SUV, but the fact is that many do not.

No, it's cause he has shitty tires and the car probably doesn't have a limited slip diff.


No, its a 2004 with 17,000 miles. It was because there was snow. And a limited slip has nothing to do with anything.

Someone has a long memory … I prefer to choose the best product (don’t hurt that it helps our economy by being built here)

Hey don’t get me wrong I drive a Chev 1500 and I love it … but just because it has been a great truck for me does not mean different models will be as good compared to others

I choose to open my eyes and consider all the options before I buy.


I don't buy things from people that don't deserve my money. I don't get anything from wal mart, or CHina for the same reason..

I don't buy things from people that don't deserve my money. I don't get anything from wal mart, or CHina for the same reason..
Your not making any sense, most of the japanese from WW2 are dead or are very old and close to dying.

I don't buy things from people that don't deserve my money. I don't get anything from wal mart, or CHina for the same reason..

More likely than not at least one part in your car is made in China.

Personally, I don't see how many people can afford to fill up a large SUV unless you are willing to make large sacrifices, you have money to spend, or you live in the South with our low gas prices.

Toyota and Honda have nothing to do with atrocities in WWII. To think so is pure ignorance on your part. Do you boycott every Japanese company just because they're Japanese?

No, its a 2004 with 17,000 miles. It was because there was snow. And a limited slip has nothing to do with anything.

Ford = crap. Outside of some trucks, the GT and a *few* of the SUVs, ford simply equals crap. Also, the tires suck. Hell, the tires on a 20 year old bimmer are probably better than the tires on a new ford.

Having a LSD (limited slip) matters a lot in terms of a car getting traction or not. In fact it is VERY important. That you don't know that means you probably don't know much about cars/trucks.

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:

1. Higher off the ground for better visability
2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.

The simple fact about SUV's is that they help to keep us dependent on foreign oil. At this point in world events, I doubt anyone thinks that is a good idea to stay dependent on Arab oil. I drive a hybrid...sure it won't tow a ton, and yeah I can't go 120 mph, but the one thing I do get out of it is the simple peace of mind that I'm doing what I can to help release my country from the shackles of Arab oil. That is something money can never buy.

The simple fact about SUV's is that they help to keep us dependent on foreign oil. At this point in world events, I doubt anyone thinks that is a good idea to stay dependent on Arab oil. I drive a hybrid...sure it won't tow a ton, and yeah I can't go 120 mph, but the one thing I do get out of it is the simple peace of mind that I'm doing what I can to help release my country from the shackles of Arab oil. That is something money can never buy.


If there was a good hybrid SUV, I'd drive it in a second.

Your not making any sense, most of the japanese from WW2 are dead or are very old and close to dying.


The Japanese government never apologized.

More likely than not at least one part in your car is made in China.

Personally, I don't see how many people can afford to fill up a large SUV unless you are willing to make large sacrifices, you have money to spend, or you live in the South with our low gas prices.

Toyota and Honda have nothing to do with atrocities in WWII. To think so is pure ignorance on your part. Do you boycott every Japanese company just because they're Japanese?


Was it mostly made in America? Yes. There is a sticker on my car that says: "Proudly Assembled by UAW in (location of plant)"

Yes, that is correct.

The Japanese government never apologized.
its not the same government, so why should they give a shit
and by that i mean the same government system


have we apoligized to the germans, italians or japanese? or every other country's people we have fucked over?

its not the same government, so why should they give a shit
and by that i mean the same government system


have we apoligized to the germans, italians or japanese? or every other country's people we have fucked over?


The German government apologized for war crimes committed, and it wasn't the same government. Thing is, the Japs killed more civillians than the Germans, but we never learn that.

Don't forget that they are adequately maneuverable in parking lots. People who can just pull into or out of a space in one motion or in less than 15 seconds are wimps.

Bigger tires mean flatter cats and squirrels.

Burning lots of gas is good for everyone, especially those on the supply side os the supply/demand curve.

Their high stance allows them to use other cars to help them stop.

Good for the ego; you seldom see an SUV driver with a deficient sense of his or her own importance.

http://aklemai.com/albums/forum/h2dick.jpg

http://aklemai.com/albums/forum/h2dick.jpg
LMAO!

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:

1. Higher off the ground for better visability
2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.

You should require another liscense for them things.

and to http://aklemai.com/albums/forum/h2dick.jpg

I pissed myself laughing, omg how true!

I live in New England, and I drive an SUV. Today I almost got into a crash driving with my mom when there was a fraction of an inch of snow on the ground. We were in her Taurus.

No, its a 2004 with 17,000 miles. It was because there was snow. And a limited slip has nothing to do with anything.

Make, model, or mileage have very little to do with anything in that situation. My 1981 Ford Escort has +300,000 kilometres, I haven't had a single crash in almost two years. And we do have snow, lot's of it. Granted, four wheel drive would be good sometimes, but I still haven't encountered a single situation where I really would have needed it.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/cue/img/ford.jpg

I assume it was a braking situation. Whether or not you're driving an SUV doesn't matter, what matters is your tires, driver skills and most importantly, speed. Winter tires (studded or friction) are worth the money. Driver skills can be improved with training and more driving. You should also slow down if there's snow or ice, brake earlier and anticipate the traffic.

Make, model, or mileage have very little to do with anything in that situation. My 1981 Ford Escort has +300,000 kilometres, I haven't had a single crash in almost two years. And we do have snow, lot's of it. Granted, four wheel drive would be good sometimes, but I still haven't encountered a single situation where I really would have needed it.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/cue/img/ford.jpg

I assume it was a braking situation. Whether or not you're driving an SUV doesn't matter, what matters is your tires, driver skills and most importantly, speed. Winter tires (studded or friction) are worth the money. Driver skills can be improved with training and more driving. You should also slow down if there's snow or ice, brake earlier and anticipate the traffic.


Ok, maybe you don't understand. The road was covered in snow, and its a mid-speed 2 lane road. My mom turned into the middle lane, and at about 10MPH, her car slipped because the middle lane was covered in snow.

Your roads are probobly treated better. There are ~10 people that clear the roads where I live, in a city/town of 20,000. Budgets have not been restored because of the economy, so there is a slight shortage of drivers.

I'm not going through all nine pages to see if this hasn't been stated before but there is documented evidence that the higher you are above the road the slower you tend to think you are driving. (One of the reasons sports cars are so "sporty" is you drive really close to the road.) If you are not a professional truck or bus driver, this can lul you into a false sense of safety and cause you to generally drive in a much more risky manner than ordinary cars.

Most people don't understand 4 wheel drive, and as a result they are more damgerous on the road with such vechicles than without. Combined with the general nature of people to drive faster in them, their higher center of gravity, the combination can be very deadly in snow or ice conditions where the SUV can skid out of control or even roll over.

This isn't to say that there aren't valid reasons to own an SUV, and that one cannot drive safely in an SUV, but the fact is that many do not.

Good point. It has to do with how fast things go by you. Thats why people go slower on roads with trees right up next to them, than roads with clearings on both sides.

No SUV I've ever heard of has full time 4WD, all wheel drive, yes, but true 4 wheel drive shouldn't be used above 25 MPH. Another reason for the rollover, is because of the higher center of gravity, someone can turn, and the tires wont grip anything, and then the tires will "grab" the road, and there will be a rollover.

An SUV is the same as a truck, and most people can drive trucks.

Ok, maybe you don't understand. The road was covered in snow, and its a mid-speed 2 lane road. My mom turned into the middle lane, and at about 10MPH, her car slipped because the middle lane was covered in snow.

Your roads are probobly treated better. There are ~10 people that clear the roads where I live, in a city/town of 20,000. Budgets have not been restored because of the economy, so there is a slight shortage of drivers.
I live in a town of 2 k :) (well actualy I live 5 miles outside of a town of 2k) there are exactly two people that handle the whole township (rough circle of 10 sq miles of roads)

Ford = crap. Outside of some trucks, the GT and a *few* of the SUVs, ford simply equals crap. Also, the tires suck. Hell, the tires on a 20 year old bimmer are probably better than the tires on a new ford.

Having a LSD (limited slip) matters a lot in terms of a car getting traction or not. In fact it is VERY important. That you don't know that means you probably don't know much about cars/trucks.


Ok, your'e obviously biased from the start, like most idiots at my school.

Limited slip as nothing to do with braking, and everything to do with accelerating.

Good point. It has to do with how fast things go by you. Thats why people go slower on roads with trees right up next to them, than roads with clearings on both sides.

No SUV I've ever heard of has full time 4WD, all wheel drive, yes, but true 4 wheel drive shouldn't be used above 25 MPH. Another reason for the rollover, is because of the higher center of gravity, someone can turn, and the tires wont grip anything, and then the tires will "grab" the road, and there will be a rollover.

An SUV is the same as a truck, and most people can drive trucks.
Depends on the vehicle ... mine is rated up to 45 in 4wd

The faster we run out of gas, the better for the world's safety. No need to invade countries like Irak any more.
Plus with the climate changing even faster, there will be more natural disasters, therefore less humans on the planet...
Save the Planet Earth, drive an SUV !

The Japanese government never apologized.
We didn't apoligize for NUKING 2 OF THEIR CITIES WHEN THEY WERE READY TO SURRENDER BEFOREHAND, now did we? Also, blaming the Japanese for what the military(which had more power than the Emporer for most of Japanese history, including WWII) did is kind of like blaming Americans for what George W. Bush is doing in Iraq(only the later is MORE our faul because we elected him.); or blaming Christains because the more fundie ones are making life miserable for many people, or...

The German government apologized for war crimes committed, and it wasn't the same government. Thing is, the Japs killed more civillians than the Germans, but we never learn that.
Again, THESE AREN'T THE SAME JAPANESE. Your reasoning's kind of like not buying a bestselling book on the grounds of "One person in the publishing company who had nothing to do with this book killed my husband in a car crash 25 years ago."

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:

1. Higher off the ground for better visability
2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.

1)It's sure as heck lacking in visability for the people who have to try and see around it when driving, or trying to pull out of a parking spot. The only reason YOUR visabilty is good is becasue most other people are driving shorter cars. And being high off the ground is unsafe, for reasons mentioned already.
2)Bah. Newer cars are just as safe, if not safer, because they're designed to crumple in the front and back.
3)Yeah, sure, who cars about the drive of the other car? And going under your SUV is likely to tip you over.
4)MAYBE a good reason...if you can expand on that.
5)Your mom's car must have crappy mileage.

Don't call me a racist, because I'm not.

Then this crap later spills out of the toxic waste dump that is your mouth:

Jap crap
Jap

(What's next?; are the spics, gooks, wetbacks, Islamic filth, and niggers attacking the livelihood of our great nation?)

Jap this, Jap that, whine whine, boo hoo, some more bullshit about WWII. And we shouldn't apologise for putting hundred of thousands of Japan's citizens through radiation sickness, cancer, instant vapourisation, etcetera?

Oh, but I forgot: To the victor go the spoils. Semper fi.

May I suggest: http://www.gdnctr.com/list2.htm?

It's not a matter of SUV's being fundamentally unsafe, it's more a matter of side curtain airbags. Almost all cars which lack them fail tests, whilst almost all cars fitted with them get a fairly good rating.

But I drove in an SUV during my high school years, and I found them to be relatively safe. I enjoyed the driving, and the four wheel drive did help on certain snowy days that tended to come along during large portions of the winter. And it excelled as far as the potential for hydroplaning is concerned. I hydroplaned precisely once in that car, and it was on a skim of water when I was going around a bend in the road.

But I drove in an SUV during my high school years, and I found them to be relatively safe. I enjoyed the driving, and the four wheel drive did help on certain snowy days that tended to come along during large portions of the winter. And it excelled as far as the potential for hydroplaning is concerned. I hydroplaned precisely once in that car, and it was on a skim of water when I was going around a bend in the road.
(though really hydroplaining is usualy more effected by speed and tires then vehicle)

The reason I drive an SUV is because I can't drive anything with any less trunk space due to a disability I need a wheelchair for. ;)

Here is some food for thought for all you SUV drivers with you support the troops bumper stickers. And by the way, the safety ends at the hood of your car as it plows through mine and severes my head. You want to be higher off the road? Learn to fly or become a truck driver...

By Paul Campos

Excessive hedonistic consumerism as a way of life worth sending our children to kill and die for.

I’m standing in the parking lot of an enormous shopping mall, staring at a Ford Excursion. A 7,700-pound hunk of metal, the Excursion gets horrible gas mileage, while spewing massive amounts of hydrocarbons into the atmosphere.

It’s the official policy of our federal government to offer Americans bribes, in the form of huge tax deductions, to encourage the purchase of such vehicles. In 2003, Congress enacted a provision allowing people who bought SUVs weighing at least 6,000 pounds to deduct the entire purchase price from their taxable income, if they claimed to use the things for “business purposes.”

Manufacturers scrambled to add even more weight to vehicles, to make them eligible for the deduction. This further decreased the gas mileage and increased the pollution emitted by these environmental disasters on wheels.

The most awe-inspiring feature of this particular Excursion is a plastic decal shaped like a yellow ribbon, which its owner has affixed to the back door. The ribbon is embossed with the message, “Support Our Troops.”

When writing this column, I usually make an effort to cultivate the persona of what in a recent New Republic essay my friend Jon Chait characterized as the “thoughtful observer.” Thoughtful observers like to note the blind spots of ideologues all across the political spectrum. The thoughtful observer specializes in melancholy, a-plague-on-both-your-houses musings and fears above all the label of partisan hack.

But there are limits, and on this issue I’ve reached mine.

I could, for example, thoughtfully observe that here in the pseudo-lefty enclave of Boulder, Colo., it’s easy to spot a $50,000 car sporting a “Live Simply So Others May Simply Live” bumper sticker. Or I could muse in a melancholy fashion on how the knee-jerk hawk is no more misguided than the knee-jerk dove, and possibly less dangerous.

I could, that is to say, emit a wistful sigh at the prevalence of human folly among those of all political persuasions, and return to cultivating my (metaphorical) garden.

I could do all these things, and normally I would, but today I just can’t.

To the owner of the Ford Excursion who implores us to “Support Our Troops” I say this:

You, sir (or madam), are a monumental jackass. At this moment, American troops are risking their lives to protect your inalienable right to live your life in an impenetrable fog of selfishness and stupidity.

If not for the need to service this grotesque monstrosity on which you squander your money and that of the taxpayers who subsidize your comfortably numb life, those troops you support would not be getting killed and maimed in a country I doubt you could find on a map.

I sometimes wonder if anything short of dynamite can shatter your complacent fantasy that the Iraq war is about bringing democracy to the Middle East.

The truth is that every Arab from Casablanca to Khartoum could be cutting his brother’s throat, and yet this would remain a matter of indifference to our government if not for the need to ensure that you will be able to fill your Excursion with cheap gasoline.

To expect others to sacrifice everything for you, while advertising by your own behavior that you will sacrifice exactly nothing for them, is the height of political and social immorality. And to do so while claiming your political views are an expression of “moral values” is an obscene joke.

Drive off, Ford Excursion. Head back to your gated community, to patiently await the Rapture, or the next Nordstrom’s sale. You’ve driven me past the limits of pundit endurance, and I long to return to the world of thoughtful observation.

Paul Campos is a law professor at the University of Colorado and can be reached at Paul.Campos@Colorado.edu.

How and why SUVs are more dangerous than other vehicles:

First of all, you have to understand the way almost all SUVs are constructed. The auto companies take a simple pickup truck frame and bolt on additional sheet metal to form the passenger area. This type of construction, while very sturdy, is also extremely rigid and infexible, which results immediately in a few problems. First is that, while an SUV is likely to take less damage in a crash due to its sheer mass, more of the energy of the crash is transfered to the passengers, resulting in more injuries than a sedan with extensive crumple zones. Second, the relative height of SUVs causes nasty incidences of the frame stabbing directly at the passengers of small cars in crashes, including directly through the side windows.

SUVs are less maneuverable than sedans, and require more room to brake. Because the best ways to avoid an accident are sudden maneuvering and braking, that means that SUVs are more likely to be in a crash at all than a sedan, even if they are more able to survive said crash. Four-wheel drive does nothing to help braking, although most people think so for some reason, so even if you can better accelerate on those icy roads, you are just as likely to slip and slide when you hit the brakes. In fact, you are somewhat more likely, because the macho tires SUVs come equipped with with those massive off-road grooves result in less rubber on the road.

People have mentioned rollovers. While rollovers constitute a tiny percentage of all accidents (less than 1% in the US) they also result in twenty-five percent of the deaths. SUVs roll over at a rate of 5 per 100 crashes; cars only roll over 1.7 times per 100 crashes, according to federal statistics, which is enough to make SUVs responsible for more deaths than any other class of vehicles. No matter how you may attest that to driving skill (and the average driver believes him/herself more skilled than 80% of all other drivers, according to an Oregon study), because SUVs have a poor height-to-width ration, and a high center of gravity, they are radically more likely to flip over (about three times, according to the government) than a car.

What's more, because SUVs are so high, when they strike obstacles like guardrails or medians, they are less likely to be stopped or rebounded and often just flip over the thing. And despite what one person claimed, SUVs do not have some special ability to survive being rolled over. Any vehicle larger than 6000 pounds doesn't even have to fulfill any set of rollover safety requirements at all! With the windshield popped out (as often happens in crashes but is not required for the government tests) most SUVs cannot support their own empty weight without collapsing the roof.

The size of SUVs, which you love so much, results in less visibility for everyone else, which is frankly dangerous. Height differences also result in much more damage done to the passengers of any non-SUV in a crash. Ford took the first steps towards fixing crash compatibility issues, but as long as you have a massive, macho steel grille high above the ground and backed by a heavy, stiff truck frame crashing into something barely as high as it is, you're going to have trouble.

As for fuel mileage, since the popularity of SUVs took off, the average mileage of all American vehicles has declined for the first time ever, and now is barely higher than 20 mpg. If every vehicle in the country got 30 mpg, a figure which is entirely feasible, we would not need to import any oil from the Middle East. Every little bit hurts, whether you can afford it or not, whether you care or not.

Yeah, yeah, I've read those before.

We didn't apoligize for NUKING 2 OF THEIR CITIES WHEN THEY WERE READY TO SURRENDER BEFOREHAND, now did we? Also, blaming the Japanese for what the military(which had more power than the Emporer for most of Japanese history, including WWII) did is kind of like blaming Americans for what George W. Bush is doing in Iraq(only the later is MORE our faul because we elected him.); or blaming Christains because the more fundie ones are making life miserable for many people, or...


Again, THESE AREN'T THE SAME JAPANESE. Your reasoning's kind of like not buying a bestselling book on the grounds of "One person in the publishing company who had nothing to do with this book killed my husband in a car crash 25 years ago."



1)It's sure as heck lacking in visability for the people who have to try and see around it when driving, or trying to pull out of a parking spot. The only reason YOUR visabilty is good is becasue most other people are driving shorter cars. And being high off the ground is unsafe, for reasons mentioned already.
2)Bah. Newer cars are just as safe, if not safer, because they're designed to crumple in the front and back.
3)Yeah, sure, who cars about the drive of the other car? And going under your SUV is likely to tip you over.
4)MAYBE a good reason...if you can expand on that.
5)Your mom's car must have crappy mileage.

1. No because last time I checked, cars were as difficult to see through as an SUV.
2. So are SUV's
3. Perhaps you can't read correctly I stated that I'd rather roll over than get hit in the side.
4. I live in the hills of central massachusetts.
5. No, its because she does a lot of stop and go driving.

Depends on the vehicle ... mine is rated up to 45 in 4wd


Mine is 25 in 4-Low, but 55 in 4-high.

Mine is 25 in 4-Low, but 55 in 4-high.
Ahhh yeah ... (looked at the manual) mine is rated to 55 too but 45 is the max shift speed between 2 and 4

There isn't anything that an SUV can do on the roads where Kahta lives that a good pair of studded tires can't do.

There isn't anything that an SUV can do on the roads where Kahta lives that a good pair of studded tires can't do.
at least where I live studded tires on "cleaned" roads is against a whole bunch of city ordinances.

at least where I live studded tires on "cleaned" roads is against a whole bunch of city ordinances.

I don't keep up to date with Gardner's city ordinances, but I lived two towns over from Kahta and I never got in any trouble for tire chains or studded tires or whatever.

Now, I know SUV's get a lot of flak on the boards, because they are big, and take a lot of gas, but I think there are legitimate reasons such as:

1. Higher off the ground for better visability

Minivan.

2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.

This is true of minivans. In addition, most SUVs are basically trucks with a roof and are thus top-heavy and more likely to flip. This is not true of minivans, which were designed just as they are.

3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.

Minivan.

4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live

Trucks have 4 wheel drive.

5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.

Probably a newer design then - they tend to be better.

I don't keep up to date with Gardner's city ordinances, but I lived two towns over from Kahta and I never got in any trouble for tire chains or studded tires or whatever.


Its difficult to drive at high speeds with studded tires because metal doesnt offer as much friction.

Was it mostly made in America? Yes. There is a sticker on my car that says: "Proudly Assembled by UAW in (location of plant)"

Yes, that is correct.

Just because the parts were assembled in America doesn't mean the parts themselves were made in America.

Minivan.

This is true of minivans. In addition, most SUVs are basically trucks with a roof and are thus top-heavy and more likely to flip. This is not true of minivans, which were designed just as they are.

Minivan.

Trucks have 4 wheel drive.

Probably a newer design then - they tend to be better.

Only soccer moms drive minivans.

Just because the parts were assembled in America doesn't mean the parts themselves were made in America.

Yes, but the reason American cars cost more is because they are made with American parts, which cost more, because employees get things like a pension, and health insurance. Something Jap companies don't provide.

Only soccer moms drive minivans.

Why would you let this get in the way of a minivan. It seems shallow to refuse a car just because soccer moms use it.

Of course, minivans aren't the safest cars. I drive a Chevy Malibu. One day, I was driving up a 35 degree hill when a Toyota Sierra rear-ended me. Though his car was much bigger than mine, my bumper got off with a couple of scratches and his front bumper was almost torn off, both headlights were smashed, and the hood was crumpled up. Interesting...

Yes, but the reason American cars cost more is because they are made with American parts, which cost more, because employees get things like a pension, and health insurance. Something Jap companies don't provide.

American cars and parts cost more not because of pension and health insurance but because of poor company management and the increased price of american labor. Most Japanese companies provide pension and health insurance arrangements, just like most American companies.

So we know you don't know much about cars, or about japanese companies.

You drive an SUV because a mini-van isn't cool, not because you need to.

American cars and parts cost more not because of pension and health insurance but because of poor company management and the increased price of american labor. Most Japanese companies provide pension and health insurance arrangements, just like most American companies.

So we know you don't know much about cars, or about japanese companies.

You drive an SUV because a mini-van isn't cool, not because you need to.


If thats true, then why do their cars cost so much less? Its because they don't have to pay pensions to retired workers, because they have none, same with the airline companies and why Southwest is less expensive than Delta or American.

There is also the factor, of the exchange rate, but the main reason is that jap companies don't have unionized labor in their plants.

I'd drive any mid size or full size car before a minivan. Minivans are plainly for stupid people. They are more dangerous than any SUV in a side impact collision.

Props to demipub and skepticism.

SUVs aren't the safest things on the road by a longshot. As skepticism noted, these vehicles tend to have some major design problems, most notably that they do tend to consist of a body bolted onto a truck chassis instead of a unibody design (like minivans). This means that because the structure is weaker and the crumple zones less effective, you're still more likely to die in a heavy dooley pick-up than a lighter minivan. And you're more likely to kill somebody else because you're bringing more kinetic energy to the table. When you look at overall mortality statistics for accidents, people are more likely to die in accidents involving one or more SUVs than they are in those involving smaller vehicles exclusively. Yeah, the odds are that it'll be the guy in the lighter vehicle that gets killed, but odds are greater, when only smaller vehicles are involved, that nobody gets killed.

The other side of this is avoidance. All the things you tout as SUV advantages are in fact things that are more likely to get you into a crack up. The elevated drivers seat, the distance from the road, the weight and size of the thing. These make an SUV harder to stop, harder to maneuver, and, most importantly, they insulate the driver from the road. VW engineers are working in the opposite direction. They call it active protection. The Jetta (statistically a very safe vehicle) is low to the ground. You can hear the engine because they don't cover it with "quiet steel" or whatnot. You're constantly reminded that you're small and vulnerable, so you stay alert and ready. It's a deliberate psychological aspect of VW design. Add to this the good stopping distance and maneuverability and the unibody design and you've got a vehicle that's less likely to be in a wreck, that offers its passengers good protection in case of a wreck, and that is less likely to kill other drivers involved in a wreck.

Before cooking up lists of what you think makes SUVs better, look at the numbers. Here's a study that analyzes crash compatibility between Light Trucks, SUVs, and passenger vehicles. http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-50/CIREN/2001/0901alabama.pdf

Note slides 25-26 in particular. Car occupants are more than twice as likely to die when they hit a heavy pick-up or SUV as they are when they hit a car of similar weight. Also note in slide 32 that the greatest reduction in fatalities comes from removing both SUVs and the lightest vehicles from the fleet. Meaning that great disparities in weight yield the greatest number of deaths. You're less likely to die when you hit something of similar size.

But what do I care? I drive a Dodge Powerwagon and I've got the bed loaded down with a half ton of cinderblocks, just for good measure. Sure, I only get four miles a gallon, but when I hit one of you Yukon-driving jerks, you'll flip like a Kia Spectra and I'll have the last laugh.

If thats true, then why do their cars cost so much less? Its because they don't have to pay pensions to retired workers, because they have none, same with the airline companies and why Southwest is less expensive than Delta or American.

No. As I have already told you most japanese companies have pension/retirement plans as well as health insurance. Since they have them, that is clearly not a reason for why they charge less.

There is also the factor, of the exchange rate, but the main reason is that jap companies don't have unionized labor in their plants.'

Having or not having unionized labor means nothing. The main difference is the efficency differences between American and Japaense companies.

I'd drive any mid size or full size car before a minivan. Minivans are plainly for stupid people. They are more dangerous than any SUV in a side impact collision.

Yes as I said, you drive a SUV because its "cool", not because you have any valid reason to prefer it over other options.

No. As I have already told you most japanese companies have pension/retirement plans as well as health insurance. Since they have them, that is clearly not a reason for why they charge less.

Having or not having unionized labor means nothing. The main difference is the efficency differences between American and Japaense companies.

Yes as I said, you drive a SUV because its "cool", not because you have any valid reason to prefer it over other options.

General Motors has several retirees for every active worker
http://www.detnews.com/pix/2004/10/24/asec/gm_gfx_102404.gif They have obligations to follow. Thats why they charge more.

Unionized labors means that the guy that made my car has a chance of retiring. Non-union labor is wal mart labor, where people make $6.50 an hour.

I already stated other reaons for driving an SUV. One of which I did not state, was that I am 6'3, and I don't feel safe in a car that is small for me.

Anyways, I'd rather have an armored car, like an armored Mercedes Benz S500.

Only soccer moms drive minivans.

In other words, the only reason SUV's are "better" is that you "don't want to look like someone else."

The sad fact is that the easiest way to tell a vehicle's value is based on money in two places. Insurance and resale. Insurance is the best way to tell. An insurance company doesn't just say "this car is more expensive so it costs more to insure it." They also look at how likely they are to have to pay out. SUV's are just a hair behind comparably priced sports cars. Why? because your "higher for better visability" and "safer because they're heavier." That also means they're more likely to be involved in an accident- especially the American-made ones. look at the breaks on a Denali or a Durango. When you see a potential accident in an SUV and hit your breaks or try to swerve, you'll probably end up in a big mess.
Also- for those of you saying "if you roll an SUV, you're a lousy driver" that's just not thinking. Most SUV's don't roll for no reason, they roll in accident avoidance. In msot sedans/small cars, if you're going 75mph down the interstate and the guy in front of you hits his breaks- you hit yours and you may swerve to avoid it... in an SUV, if you hit your breaks, you need a LOT more room to stop and if you swerve, you stand a good chance of being upside down at the end.
I figure that people who need to tow things or need to be off-road are fine to drive them. the vast majority of people? no reason at all to be in one. Every german car company offers All Wheel Drive on most of its vehicles. most japanese companies offer it somewhere. A few american companies are even figuring it out. so unless you need more than 9 inches of ground clearance or more than 3500 lbs of towing, why would you waste the money?

No, but I know that they are from Japan. And thats enough for me...
I know that some people have accused you of being racist, but personally you come off rediculously nationalistic. The whole WW2 thing you're coping is just plain ignorance. You aren't helping anyone by clinging to something over 50 years old and perpetuated by people whom mostly are not alive. You ARE NOT YOUR COUNTRY, as much as people would like to think. All Japanese are not accountable for every Japanese that's ever lived, just as I, despite being American, have no responsability for slavery, because I as an individual, didn't exist during condoned slavery. The idea that somehow you're helping the US by supporting US companies that outsource construction to foreign countries over Japanese companies that build US cars in the US is silly. You are not a better citizen by hating past US enemies.
The Japanese government never apologized.
Again, you're placing blame on a Japanese company. The fact that the company is Japanese doesn't matter. You aren't at fault for Enron, despite it being an American company, likewise, except with indirect involvement of companies in war manufacturing (the MITSUBISHI Zero, after all), you don't have a point. At all. It's a completely rediculous view point that every citizen holds every action of one another accountable personally. I dare say you'd probably dislike being held accountable for my actions, just as I yours.

I already stated other reaons for driving an SUV. One of which I did not state, was that I am 6'3, and I don't feel safe in a car that is small for me.
I believe you commented on the article that mentioned something about this. A bit funny, because it stated that while people often feel safer in those higher up, larger vehicles, the construction of the vehicles themselves is still inferior and inheriently more dangerous then cars, which have stricter standards towards safety. Maybe you feel safer, but that doesn't make it true. No one's asking you to drive a Miata... but geez, there's a reason why they make them built off truck bodies, because they don't have to meet the same saftey and efficieny requirements. A car based SUV would probably do you better, if you can put up with the loss in coolness.

Personally, where I live, SUVs seem largely unneeded and underutilized. It's a very suburban town, so having large unweildy vehicles seems to be rather extraneous. They often have the larger models, drive to where I work with just a single passenger, and drive more recklessly and faster then they should. The mentality I get the impression they have is that they're safer in a larger vehicle, and drive faster because of it. They aren't going offroad, they're not loading up 20 kids at a time, they're commuting and driving everywhere with a huge vehicle they don't seem prepared to drive. There's no reason a person needs to go everywhere in an excursion. There's just something very wrong about seeing a person having to back up 20 times just to get in and out of parking spots. These vehicles are too unweildy for common useage, and yet, people drive them everywhere. They're status items, and I don't see the need of SUVs on the scale they're being bought. There are people that use them well enough, but they're not efficiently or well designed enough to replace the car for everyday driving...

In other words, the only reason SUV's are "better" is that you "don't want to look like someone else."

There are loads of cars I'd rahter drive than a minivan.

If there was a good hybrid SUV, I'd drive it in a second.

Check it out....

http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/

:)

Check it out....

http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/home/

:)


Yeah, its flying off the shelves, but its too small for me, I test drove one when I was looking at cars with my dad.

Kahta, I'm not going to go further with the debates about relative pricing. I have no real need to debate about why American companies suck at what they do right now and frankly you're just wrong. Especialy since American companies don't charge more, their products just suck. Though some things like Saab, Volvo and Aston Martin are great cars, they're great because GM and Ford, respectively, have left them well enough alone.

Your reasons for owning a SUV are bullshit and you have a fundamental lack of understanding of cars/suvs/trucks. 4WD and AWD are the same thing. LSDs are extremely important when it comes to traction and handling and SUVs are not safer. But oh well we can't get the facts through your misguided mind filled with misconceptions.

I'm 6'2" and I feel safer in a nimble Miata than any hulking SUV. Why? Because I'm confident in my driving skills and my ability to, get this, *avoid* accidents. I have dodged other cars that began to spin out in front of me. I have successfully avoided the idiot on the cellphone in their SUV who fail to see me. I can successfully and safely powerslide my way around an intersection covered with ice, and when I do that I am much safer than you in your SUV because I am in control of the situation and what is going on around me. I’d like to see you try and correct your under/over-steer in a hulking, top heavy, poorly engineered American SUV. I'll laugh at you as you crash and rely on your weight to save you.

BTW, you say the new Ford Escape hybrid is to small for you? What exactly are you hauling around on a daily basis? I've been taking weekly trips in a truck hauling around sheets of wood, two by fours, dishwashers, washing machines, dryers, sinks, marble, windows, doors, glass doors and god knows what I'm forgetting. All in a truck. No SUV could of served my purposes, I'd like to know what kind of crap you are carrying around so often that it doesn't need a truck, but needs an SUV.

Also- for those of you saying "if you roll an SUV, you're a lousy driver" that's just not thinking. Most SUV's don't roll for no reason, they roll in accident avoidance. In msot sedans/small cars, if you're going 75mph down the interstate and the guy in front of you hits his breaks- you hit yours and you may swerve to avoid it... in an SUV, if you hit your breaks, you need a LOT more room to stop and if you swerve, you stand a good chance of being upside down at the end.

Uh no. The simple fact of the matter is that in dry conditions all modern tries have so much grip that rolling a car takes a huge amount of trying. Almost all rollovers are caused by the tire hitting an object that doesn't quite move, thus caused the car/suv to tip. If you're on a freeway, hit your breaks and try to swerve to avoid it and you end up sideways (the only way to initate a rollover without hitting anything) you're a dumbass driver (just like the other 80% of the road) and deserve your rollover. The passangers don't, but the driver most certainly does.

And you're right, most SUVs (barring the Porsche, :D ) need much more stopping distance, which means you shouldn't be following very closely now should you? But instead they're barreling along at 75mph 6 inches off my bumper. They should be aware of their increased stopping distance and keep a reasonable distance between the car infront of them.

No, its a 2004 with 17,000 miles. It was because there was snow. And a limited slip has nothing to do with anything.
A limited slip helps distribute power equally between the tires. VERY useful when driving in snow. There are still many new cars without them. Also, if you did not have actual snow tires on your car then they almost automatically qualify as shitty tires unless the snow is light. There are a few all-season tires that make it past this problem, but not many.

The sad fact is that the easiest way to tell a vehicle's value is based on money in two places. Insurance and resale. Insurance is the best way to tell.
The new Mini PWNS all. The first year Mini's are still reselling over original list price and the newer ones will retain something on the order of 60% of their value by their 5th year. Also, Mini's are some of the safest cars an the road, even though they are small. :cool:

It's a FORD goddamnit! What did you expect?!

I happen to like my ford. Of course it is a retired police interceptor that was sold on auction. It handles better (even in most weather), gets better mileage and is just a funner car than any SUV I have driven (although that is an admittadly small number)

Kahta, I'm not going to go further with the debates about relative pricing. I have no real need to debate about why American companies suck at what they do right now and frankly you're just wrong. Especialy since American companies don't charge more, their products just suck. Though some things like Saab, Volvo and Aston Martin are great cars, they're great because GM and Ford, respectively, have left them well enough alone.


Ok, I'm sure a Korean car like a Hyundai is much better than my explorer :rolleyes: If I could afford a Saab, Volvo, or Aston Martin, I'd own one, but I simply can't, to get one with the same options my explorer has, would leave me without money to pay for gas.


Your reasons for owning a SUV are bullshit and you have a fundamental lack of understanding of cars/suvs/trucks. 4WD and AWD are the same thing. LSDs are extremely important when it comes to traction and handling and SUVs are not safer. But oh well we can't get the facts through your misguided mind filled with misconceptions.

LSD's are fundamental in braking and slowing down? I believe thats what I was told. 4WD and AWD are not the same, as stated here (http://www.delalbright.com/Products/products_awd.htm)


I'm 6'2" and I feel safer in a nimble Miata than any hulking SUV. Why? Because I'm confident in my driving skills and my ability to, get this, *avoid* accidents. I have dodged other cars that began to spin out in front of me. I have successfully avoided the idiot on the cellphone in their SUV who fail to see me. I can successfully and safely powerslide my way around an intersection covered with ice, and when I do that I am much safer than you in your SUV because I am in control of the situation and what is going on around me. I’d like to see you try and correct your under/over-steer in a hulking, top heavy, poorly engineered American SUV. I'll laugh at you as you crash and rely on your weight to save you.


Yeah, but you won't survive a crash when someone rear ends you, or T-Bones you when they go through a red light.


BTW, you say the new Ford Escape hybrid is to small for you? What exactly are you hauling around on a daily basis? I've been taking weekly trips in a truck hauling around sheets of wood, two by fours, dishwashers, washing machines, dryers, sinks, marble, windows, doors, glass doors and god knows what I'm forgetting. All in a truck. No SUV could of served my purposes, I'd like to know what kind of crap you are carrying around so often that it doesn't need a truck, but needs an SUV.

WWII Reenacting. I'm not going to leave my stuff out in the open when I stop at a rest area, because its very expensive.


Uh no. The simple fact of the matter is that in dry conditions all modern tries have so much grip that rolling a car takes a huge amount of trying. Almost all rollovers are caused by the tire hitting an object that doesn't quite move, thus caused the car/suv to tip. If you're on a freeway, hit your breaks and try to swerve to avoid it and you end up sideways (the only way to initate a rollover without hitting anything) you're a dumbass driver (just like the other 80% of the road) and deserve your rollover. The passangers don't, but the driver most certainly does.


Ok, next time I'm on the highway, I won't swerve to avoid hitting the car, deer, or bag of trash.


And you're right, most SUVs (barring the Porsche, ) need much more stopping distance, which means you shouldn't be following very closely now should you? But instead they're barreling along at 75mph 6 inches off my bumper. They should be aware of their increased stopping distance and keep a reasonable distance between the car infront of them.


Which is what I do. I never tailgate anyone.

Your reasons for owning a SUV are bullshit and you have a fundamental lack of understanding of cars/suvs/trucks. 4WD and AWD are the same thing. LSDs are extremely important when it comes to traction and handling and SUVs are not safer. But oh well we can't get the facts through your misguided mind filled with misconceptions.


I would do your reserch before claiming something like this

http://www.4x4abc.com/4WD101/difference_4WD_awd.html

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=113405&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=113261&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=333137

4WD != AWD

Geez, if you want an SUV that bad at least get one thats built well, like this one.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Pilot&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True

Geez, if you want an SUV that bad at least get one thats built well, like this one.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Pilot&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True
Not the only one there are quite a few good ones out there

im pretty sure they dont make cars getting 51 miles to a gallon

Where have you been?

I live in the UK, my father drives a car (unleaded, 1 litre) that does 50 miles to the gallon on average. Not a hybrid.

Smaller hatchback hybrids are getting 100+ mpg.

And there you sit, in your metal monster. I bet it weighs more than a tonne, doesn't it? 20 miles per gallon of fuel? A/C, as well. Electric windows.

Then you hit someone. If they're in a similar-sized SUV, all your nice safety features work as they're to, everyone walks away. Oh but hey - if they're driving a *bigger* ("god"-forbid) SUV than you, something weighing the same as a small tank, well... you might not walk away then, might you.

Oh yeah. And if they're driving anything smaller than your "car"/tank, they're essentially dead. I hit your, say, Taurus in my 800-kilo, 1-litre Vauxhall Nova and I'm afraid whatever happens I'm a greasy patch on the pavement.

But nevermind my own hates - that is, of course, all based in my commie-leftist leanings.

You won't be driving SUVs much longer, whether you want to or not. Oil's $50+ dollars a barrel. It's not going down. Soon you'll face the $10, and the $20 gallon of fuel. Then it might make sense to drive 50 miles on that gallon of fuel instead of 20.

p.s. Don't give me any of that bollocks about needing to go offroad. You don't need fucking air conditioning and leather seats in a working vehicle.

Where have you been?

I live in the UK, my father drives a car (unleaded, 1 litre) that does 50 miles to the gallon on average. Not a hybrid.

Smaller hatchback hybrids are getting 100+ mpg.

And there you sit, in your metal monster. I bet it weighs more than a tonne, doesn't it? 20 miles per gallon of fuel? A/C, as well. Electric windows.

Then you hit someone. If they're in a similar-sized SUV, all your nice safety features work as they're to, everyone walks away. Oh but hey - if they're driving a *bigger* ("god"-forbid) SUV than you, something weighing the same as a small tank, well... you might not walk away then, might you.

Oh yeah. And if they're driving anything smaller than your "car"/tank, they're essentially dead. I hit your, say, Taurus in my 800-kilo, 1-litre Vauxhall Nova and I'm afraid whatever happens I'm a greasy patch on the pavement.

But nevermind my own hates - that is, of course, all based in my commie-leftist leanings.

You won't be driving SUVs much longer, whether you want to or not. Oil's $50+ dollars a barrel. It's not going down. Soon you'll face the $10, and the $20 gallon of fuel. Then it might make sense to drive 50 miles on that gallon of fuel instead of 20.

p.s. Don't give me any of that bollocks about needing to go offroad. You don't need fucking air conditioning and leather seats in a working vehicle.
I dont have leather seats ... nor do I want them ... but I would like an suv so? (and read my reasons why eariler in thread I dont feel like reposting)

Geez, if you want an SUV that bad at least get one thats built well, like this one.

http://automobiles.honda.com/models/model_overview.asp?ModelName=Pilot&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=True


Its Jap Crap. I only drive American cars, you'll never see me in some Jap shit.

I have only one beef with SUV's and surprisingly, it's mentioned in Kahta's quote...

1. Higher off the ground for better visability

Yeah, they are higher off of the ground... unfortunatly, that puts most SUV's Headlights level with my Back Window. Trying to drive while being blinded at night isn't fun... nor safe. and most people don't realize that Higher isn't necessarily better.

Where have you been?

I live in the UK, my father drives a car (unleaded, 1 litre) that does 50 miles to the gallon on average. Not a hybrid.

Smaller hatchback hybrids are getting 100+ mpg.

And there you sit, in your metal monster. I bet it weighs more than a tonne, doesn't it? 20 miles per gallon of fuel? A/C, as well. Electric windows.

Then you hit someone. If they're in a similar-sized SUV, all your nice safety features work as they're to, everyone walks away. Oh but hey - if they're driving a *bigger* ("god"-forbid) SUV than you, something weighing the same as a small tank, well... you might not walk away then, might you.

Oh yeah. And if they're driving anything smaller than your "car"/tank, they're essentially dead. I hit your, say, Taurus in my 800-kilo, 1-litre Vauxhall Nova and I'm afraid whatever happens I'm a greasy patch on the pavement.

But nevermind my own hates - that is, of course, all based in my commie-leftist leanings.

You won't be driving SUVs much longer, whether you want to or not. Oil's $50+ dollars a barrel. It's not going down. Soon you'll face the $10, and the $20 gallon of fuel. Then it might make sense to drive 50 miles on that gallon of fuel instead of 20.

p.s. Don't give me any of that bollocks about needing to go offroad. You don't need fucking air conditioning and leather seats in a working vehicle.

1. My Explorer is a 4 liter V-6 that gets betwen 15 and 20 mpg.

2. The cars in England are the size go-karts.

3. It weighs 2 tons, has power windows, seats, leather, and a 6 disc changer, plus a few other things.

4. No SUV weighs as much as a small tank.

5. My Explorer is 2 tons.

6. Last time I checked, oil was $42 a barrel. And gas was $1.85. To make gas $10 or $20 a gallon, oil would have to be $200-$400 a barrel. The only way that would happen would be if all the OPEC oil fieds were completely destroyed.

7. Ok, next time I go hunting I'll drive a Hyundai accent into the woods. :rolleyes:

It’s Jap Crap. I only drive American cars, you'll never see me in some Jap shit.
Your going agnist all logic here, Honda Pilots are built in American, and they are built better than any Ford or GMC pile of crap, Save the Mustang, that’s a nice ass car.
I'll admit the Ranger is a good truck, it's one of the few trucks that haven’t given my grandpa problems.


As for shit?
It's built much better than any American SUV! http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.cfm?Vehicle=2004_Honda_Pilot&ReviewID=1503
Almost a perfect review,
You’re veering from logic, which cares where it came from; I'd get something that is a BETTER product.

I drove a '94 Honda Accord, bought new by mother and sold to me upon my 16th birthday, from 187K to 248K miles on it, until my one accident, having no problems whatsoever. Now, I possess a '97 GMC Jimmy with around 90K on it, which has had more problems in the (maybe) 10,000 I've driven it than the Honda had in its entire lifespan. I drive my sister's Acura when possible.

Less this seem like I don't appreciate the truck, I will say that being able to fit 6 people comfortably is a VERY nive feature, and a 4.0L engine lets me be sloppy when I drive. That built-in digital compass/thermometer is also nice, and definitely should be a standard in every car. Towing capacity kicks ass, too, though maybe 1% of SUV owners ever plan to use it.


1. Higher off the ground for better visability
This, of course, means that their lights are at exactly eye-level of the average sedan, meaning you completely blind them if you're behind. Your visibility doesn't matter if you have the mirrors set up right, since any halfway competent person can track everything within 10 seconds of them if they do check all mirrors every few seconds, like they were taught. Thus, you're a hazard to everyone but yourself.

Also, that person who said "boxy design" really knows what they're talking about. If you can't keep track, checking your blind spot is absolutely useless.


2. Safer in rear and front impact collisions because they are higher off the ground and weigh more.
3. Safer in side impact collisions with passanger cars, because the cars are lower, and go under the SUV, rather than into the side.
Three is another "only when you take the selfish view" answer, again making it more of a threat to everyone else. However, they're also provably false. p=VM, Impulse=d(p)/d(t). Conservation of energy says that your car recieves as large change in momentum as the other car, and the one that crumples more takes longer to recieve the same work done, meaning less of the shock actually hits you.

As more evidence,I offer the answer which removed my Honda from me, crippled a county's budget for a month, and provides endless conversation pieces at parties-

After the gold-digging whore broke up with me (because she found a guy with a summer home in Paris. She admitted it was because of money, but she inflated the figure and changed the circumstances a bit), I was pissed, but decided to return to school for something I promised a few friends I'd do, just to get my mind off it it. It rained just a little bit, so it was just a little slick, and, as I said, I was pissed. I took the usual shortcut, which involves a winding two-lane senic byway, with one particular curve I could have sworn was 50, but was actually 35. Wouldn't have mattered, since I took it at 85.

I spun out, and would have hit a tree and killed myself, but someone else had done exactly that about half an hour ago, so there was a State Highway Patrol Sergent's cruiser in the way. The Sergent, standing outside and watching, pisses himself, but manages to bolt before I mow him down. However, my front driver's side door still manages to swing such that it hits the front of his cruiser hard enough to total both cars, his shortened by two feet and thrown back about ten, and mine now bent at about pi/5. I never wearmy seatbelt, thus I fully expected to be dead about now. My vision's blurry, but I don't hurt at all. Feeling my face for a second I realize my glasses are now embedded in the hood of the car I just hit.

I, however, am fine, aside from the fact that I just caused about $90K in damage and know I will never see my liscense again. They make me go to the hospital to get tested for every drug known to man, and I don't even have a scrape on me. As for the liscense, after giving the cop some jelly beans and being an absolute perfect angel to the judge, I recieved a ten-dollar ticket for "failure to retain control of the vehicle," and three months later I had my lisense retroactively suspended for 90 days (leaving two left).

With my truck: my sister Sam borrows it to move, gets rear-ended at 20, and she, wearing a seatbelt, needs a Chiropractor for the next two months. Total repairs are more than twice what the honda was worth (rear frame & alignment destroyed, multiple horrible scraping noises.)

4. 4 Wheel drive is a must where I live
5. Mine gets the same mileage as my mom's car.
Then... either your mom Drives and SUV-like car, cars other than SUV's have 4WD, or you don't REALLY need 4WD?

Honda- 35MPG while it had over 200K miles on it.
GMC- About 18, or 12 while in 4WD.
However, the Jimmy has about twice the power. MPG is useful, but it bears very little relation to what it actually gets. MPGPHP means a bit more- The ModelT got 25MPG, but had only 5 Horsepower. On the same gallonage, with my "only touch the brake to stop" habits, the Jimmy in 4'd go further than the Model T thanks to momentum.


Other complaints- you CANNOT floor and SUV. The first time I tried this, it wanted to go from first to third gear inside of a half second, and since the engine is so damned heavy, a rod broke. The brakes wear faster, alignment & suspension go to hell if you take a speed bump at 10 MPH, and generally everything's too heavy for the car to maintain itself. It is absolutely NOT safer than my honda, and in the long run, it's not safer than anything at all. In actual emergencies, the car just falls to shit.

One more note, mostly on rollovers- Because the shocks fall apart so damn fast on heavier cars, I lower my tire pressure 3-4 PSI when it's close to time for a checkup (as in,every oil change) to make the ride smoother. However, this means the tires heat up faster, and will blow out if you drive them like I used to drive my Honda (as in, more than a few hundred miles at a time). Over you go...


though maybe 1% of SUV owners ever plan to use it.

This is my problem with SUV's. They're really just a yuppie status symbol. I consider my Jimmy a truck. Everything good you said about SUV's is better with Trucks. The comparison to a sedan, MPG, means the sedan's just not a good one.

I have no home internet, thus please adress all responses in Personal messages.

Yes, I do have a few stories comparable to my one accident, though I don't believe I could ever top it.

I have only one beef with SUV's and surprisingly, it's mentioned in Kahta's quote...

Yeah, they are higher off of the ground... unfortunatly, that puts most SUV's Headlights level with my Back Window. Trying to drive while being blinded at night isn't fun... nor safe. and most people don't realize that Higher isn't necessarily better.

They are driving too close then...

Its still Jap crap. And Japan never apologized or faced charges for their crimes in WWII.
well have you ever apologized for being a racist bigot?

if i want to spend 2.10 a gallon (that's how much it is where i live) for my gas for my gas-guzzling SUV, then i am damn well within my rights to do that. my money. and what is all this "get a pickup truck" bs? first, SUVs and pickups have to meet the same emissions requirements, and second, SUVs can carry people AND cargo, as opposed to trucks which mainly just carry cargo.

i'll freely admit to being english and so not understanding most of the car names in this thread but what i do get is the mpg figures. come to the uk and look at ours, 29 mpg is bad, my car gets 36 mpg worst case (that is car literature though so may be a little exagerrated). your goverment should just do what ours does, tax the hell out of fuel prices. this would force car makers to start producing sensible cars, thus doing alot to save the rest of the world from the environmental damage caused by americas excesses and would give to govt. extra cash to spend on the things you really need, like health care.

I hate SUV's, for a far differnt reason than most people. Thier made up to look like off road vehicals, but thier not. Most people who have them, have never seen dirt in thier lives. I just dislike them for my own reasons. I also dislike japaneese cars, cause I cant fit in the little things, my head hits the ceiling, my knee's hit the dash, it just doesnt work. Give me good, solid, American muscle, anyday. German cars are good too, I like my '79 turbo diesel Mercedes, roomy, comfortable, and it looks good, great for going to work and school, but I cant do anything serious with it. Thats why I have my '73 Jeep truck, with a 401 V8. As the old saying goes, theres no replacement for displacement. It's fun blowing little sports cars off the road, and then be able to go off-road, and hit the jeep trails, tow trailors, haul dirtbikes etc.. I also have a '82 Cheerokee, nothing better for hauling people around, going camping, towing trailors etc..

I may not get the greatest gas mileage, but I saved so much money on the cars, that I can afford it. And before you bleeding hearts tell me i'm destroying the enviroment, let me tell you, STFU. Cars produce less pollution then powerplants, so well your sitting at home, watching TV, and polluting the enviroment, I'm outside, trying to enjoy it, despite your best efforts to destroy it, blame me, and then pass crazy laws to limit my use of it.

i'll freely admit to being english and so not understanding most of the car names in this thread but what i do get is the mpg figures. come to the uk and look at ours, 29 mpg is bad, my car gets 36 mpg worst case (that is car literature though so may be a little exagerrated). your goverment should just do what ours does, tax the hell out of fuel prices. this would force car makers to start producing sensible cars, thus doing alot to save the rest of the world from the environmental damage caused by americas excesses and would give to govt. extra cash to spend on the things you really need, like health care.

California tried taxing gasoline, but when people turned to hybrids, they turned to using GPS tracking, which Ahnold is pushing through...

http://www.winnisquamauto.com/2002%20Ford%20Explorer%20XLT%20Green.jpg
A Ford Explorer in its Natural Habitat.

http://www.avonhill.com/thumbnails/sedan_domestic/2001_Ford_CV_blue.jpeg[/img
A Ford Crown Victoria

[img]http://www.wheelsdirect2u.com/newimages/2003-lincoln-town-car.jpg
Lincoln Town car.

What other models do you need to know?

I hate SUV's, for a far differnt reason than most people. Thier made up to look like off road vehicals, but thier not. Most people who have them, have never seen dirt in thier lives. I just dislike them for my own reasons.

I may not get the greatest gas mileage, but I saved so much money on the cars, that I can afford it. And before you bleeding hearts tell me i'm destroying the enviroment, let me tell you, STFU. Cars produce less pollution then powerplants, so well your sitting at home, watching TV, and polluting the enviroment, I'm outside, trying to enjoy it, despite your best efforts to destroy it, blame me, and then pass crazy laws to limit my use of it.


1. Most people have seen dirt in their lives.
2. All of the older SUV's were designed for off road, but the new ones are not. The new explorer cannot, but mine can. The Luxury SUV's can't go off road either. But I actually saw more SUV's in Florida than I do in Massachuetts.
3. Its a different kind of pollution. Cars make CO2, and thats about it, while powerplants make all sorts of nasty things, in particular coal, which emits mercury.
4. I lean left, but I think the Democrats have a better envriomental policy, with dems, at least there are forests to drive in...

well have you ever apologized for being a racist bigot?

I'm not one...

California tried taxing gasoline, but when people turned to hybrids, they turned to using GPS tracking, which Ahnold is pushing through...
Gasoline is already taxed, what you meant was that a tax increase was attempted.

As for your next comment, it's just plain silly. Hybrids are still rare, and costly, and in relatively short supply (ie, even if the cost doesn't stop you, availability is still low.)

http://gps.engadget.com/entry/1234000707020792/

It's Arnold isn't pushing it through, his head of DMV wants to do it. That's not quite the same thing. Also, it would eliminate the current gas tax, which would decrease incentives for more efficient cars, since distance would be taxed. Also, it's a huge privacy invasion, obviously. But it hasn't been pushed through.

Gasoline is already taxed, what you meant was that a tax increase was attempted.

As for your next comment, it's just plain silly. Hybrids are still rare, and costly, and in relatively short supply (ie, even if the cost doesn't stop you, availability is still low.)

http://gps.engadget.com/entry/1234000707020792/

It's Arnold isn't pushing it through, his head of DMV wants to do it. That's not quite the same thing. Also, it would eliminate the current gas tax, which would decrease incentives for more efficient cars, since distance would be taxed. Also, it's a huge privacy invasion, obviously. But it hasn't been pushed through.
Oh really

Chevy hybrid pickup 30,345

Chevy SS(pickup) 39,590


Or if you prefer the chev 1500 HD 32,650

i wouldnt know, i drive a Porsche 944 turbo S.... so im not so big or mighty but i go real real fast.... doing that keeps people from hitting me so i dont have to worry bout side impacts....

i wouldnt know, i drive a Porsche 944 turbo S.... so im not so big or mighty but i go real real fast.... doing that keeps people from hitting me so i dont have to worry bout side impacts....
Just have to worry about the pedistrians you did not see cause you were going 30 over the speed limit, got it

I have decided I am going to talk with my dad about replacing my 1995 Explorer with a 1999 Town Car.