NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, I don't know if this is the official explanation by the Roman Catholic Church for Purgatory but this is what popped into my head the other day as to the basis for the doctrine of Purgatory (and to pose an arguemnt to Protestants who say it doesn't exist).

Okay....I was thinking about the fact that eventually Jesus christ will return to Earth (when that is no one knows) and we will have the Last judgement where it will be decided who goes to Hell and who goes to Heaven. So I was thinking, Purgatory must really exist.

Let me explain - if Protestants say Purgatory doesn't exist then where do we go when we die? What's the point in going straight to Heaven or Hell because the Last Judgement decides that. Plus the fact that the overwhelming majority of people have not sinned enough to go straight to Hell nor have they followed Gods will enough to go straight to Heaven.

Therefore, Purgatory must exist. The vast majority of people must go to Purgatory where most of us will stay until the Last Judgement (which is when it will be decided whether we go to Heaven or Hell). To decide before is to completely negate the 'use' of the Last Judgement IMO.

Purgatory therefore has to be true as that is the only state we can be in until the Last Judgement (at least for the vast majority of people). Do I make sense?

kind of a halfway house

kind of a halfway house

erm...yeah..... :?

There are too many sinners to put them directly where they belong.

Now serving Number 216 and you have 6021938878 :eek:

There are too many sinners to put them directly where they belong.

Now serving Number 216 and you have 6021938878 :eek:

It's got nothing to do with the amount of people there are 'waiting to be processed' as it were.

why the wait?

why the wait?

Did you read what I wrote in my opening post?

i see your idea but you've missed a few easy answers.

1. "Must exist" ?
Anyone so certain sounds like a fundamentalist and therefore i doubt their reasoning.. thats harsh but the western world has taught us to distrust people who don't think like us.

2. God, heaven and hell can quite happily exist outside of our limited perception of time. There doesn't have to be a period of waiting from death in this life until the time of your judgement.

3. I don't think Judgement day was about evaluating all of the people though history, but more to do with Jesus's return to this world, followed by satan's arrival after the righeous have left. And God being a pretty good judge of character could decide where people belong whenever he liked anyway...

Is there a difference between Purgatory and Limbo?

yes. So you see judgement day as one day. I thought it was different for everyone. several days after death depending on the schedule.

Wow that will be one busy day.

yes. So you see judgement day as one day. I thought it was different for everyone. several days after death depending on the schedule.

Wow that will be one busy day.

i see judgement day as the same type as the seven days the earth was made in.

A meaningless and arbritary amount of time in which events occored.#

The events matter, our perception of time is too limited so we think of time in nice easy to manage packets

What is purgatory anyway?

I'm not a catholic, but I would like to know.

i see your idea but you've missed a few easy answers.

1. "Must exist" ?
Anyone so certain sounds like a fundamentalist and therefore i doubt their reasoning.. thats harsh but the western world has taught us to distrust people who don't think like us.

Well, we are all fundamentalist in our own ways (you are a fundamnetlaist in distrusting people who are religious fundamentalists).

2. God, heaven and hell can quite happily exist outside of our limited perception of time. There doesn't have to be a period of waiting from death in this life until the time of your judgement.

Hmm, yes but despite tha fact the God exists outside of time we must repent first before we go to Heaven or Hell and Purgatory is where we do this (however, by confesing and repenting on earth you will be closer to heaven or get there sooner)

3. I don't think Judgement day was about evaluating all of the people though history, but more to do with Jesus's return to this world, followed by satan's arrival after the righeous have left. And God being a pretty good judge of character could decide where people belong whenever he liked anyway...

Well, I've always thought of Judgement as the day when we will get judged by God, with Jesus at his right hand side, as to whether we will go to Heaven or Hell.

I don't hold with popery
You don't hold w/Potpourri? Smelly stuff? :D

What is purgatory anyway?

I'm not a catholic, and I don't hold with popery, but I would like to know.

I'm not going to reply to people who use bigoted words.

Is there a difference between Purgatory and Limbo?

is there a differance between Heaven and Hell?

Is there a differance between depression and sadness?

The differance is feeling. Purgatoy, Heaven and sadness are feelings of being very much alive. You know you are there and you have intense feelings.

Limbo, Hell and Depression are about a lack of feeling. A lack of feeling God's presence or a lack of emotion. A sence of emptyness.

The way I think about it - God exists outside of time, so everyone will have Judgement Day at the same time, no matter where in history they were. Yep, I've destroyed purgatory.

I'm not going to reply to people who use bigoted words.

What words?

What words?

Popery.......

Well, I've always thought of Judgement as the day when we will get judged by God, with Jesus at his right hand side, as to whether we will go to Heaven or Hell.
I'm just making a joke here, but:

Then you can interpret judgement day as like a courtroom trial. God is residing as Judge and Jesus works both as defense and prosecution attorney. Your "Jury of peers" would be the Twelve Apostoles.

The way I think about it - God exists outside of time, so everyone will have Judgement Day at the same time, no matter where in history they were. Yep, I've destroyed purgatory.

I don't believe so.

Popery.......

Ah, but it is perfectly okay to "rebuke" protestants for their beliefs however.

Edit: Can I look forward to the Jews and Muslims being rebuked for their lack of belief in Jesus as the Son of God in future threads.

I'm just making a joke here, but:

Then you can interpret judgement day as like a courtroom trial. God is residing as Judge and Jesus works both as defense and prosecution attorney. Your "Jury of peers" would be the Twelve Apostoles.

Well, yes God is residing as Judge but he is also the Jury and Prosecutor whilst you are your own defense (your own lawyer), defending your actions.

Ah, but it is perfectly okay to "rebuke" protestants for their beliefs however.

But I don't use abusive words or bigoted words to do it.

Well, yes God is residing as Judge but he is also the Jury and Prosecutor whilst you are your own defense (your own lawyer), defending your actions.

So you have a fool for a client.

But I don't use abusive words or bigoted words to do it.

You don't think "rebuking" people for their religious beliefs is a bit biggoted in of itself then.

What's wrong with popery anyway. It's just protestant for episcopacy.

Edit: Can I look forward to the Jews and Muslims being rebuked for their lack of belief in Jesus as the Son of God in future threads.

Huh....I'm confused, where did that come from?

Huh....I'm confused, where did that come from?

Well shouldn't they be "rebuked" also for their mistaken beliefs. Why are you just singling the protestants out.

Edit: Can I look forward to the Jews and Muslims being rebuked for their lack of belief in Jesus as the Son of God in future threads
*sniff sniff* I smell burning . . . flames!

You don't think "rebuking" people for their religious beliefs is a bit biggoted in of itself then.

I've just said that I don't believe it is correct and put my argument forward as to why I think they are wrong. I don't believe that to be rebuking and I don't believe that to be bigoted. Arrogant maybe, bigoted not.

*sniff sniff* I smell burning . . . flames!

Exactly what I was thinking.

Okay, I don't know if this is the official explanation by the Roman Catholic Church for Purgatory but this is what popped into my head the other day as to the basis for the doctrine of Purgatory (and to rebuke Protestants who say it doesn't exist).





I've just said that I don't believe it is correct and put my argument forward as to why I think they are wrong. I don't believe that to be rebuking and I don't believe that to be bigoted. Arrogant maybe, bigoted not.

:confused:

:confused:
Perhaps CE phrased it in a way you were offended; what one must keep in mind is that this is a public forum so one will encounter ideas that you may dislike

Perhaps CE phrased it in a way you were offended; what one must keep in mind is that this is a public forum so one will encounter ideas that you may dislike

Well I think it's a bit rich for someone to get offended at the use of the word popery when they are busy "rebuking" protestants.

And no-one has yet told me what purgatory is. Perhaps if it is explained I might be able to tell you why protestants don't believe in it.

Well I think it's a bit rich for someone to get offended at the use of the word popery when they are busy "rebuking" protestants.

And no-one has yet told me what purgatory is. Perhaps if it is explained I might be able to tell you why protestants don't believe in it.

I didn't mean to use the word rebuke, wrong choice of words on my part (which is why I ave changed it, please take a look). I'm gonna get a website for you to have a look at what Purgatory is.

Please take a look at this website (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm).

I didn't mean to use the word rebuke, wrong choice of words on my part (which is why I ave changed it, please take a look). I'm gonna get a website for you to have a look at what Purgatory is.

Fair enough. In the interest of ecumenicalism I will edit my posts.

And thanks for the website.

frist of all, purgatory was invented by the church to line some papal pockets
second
religion is the opiate of the masses
Happy Quanza!

frist of all, purgatory was invented by the church to line some papal pockets
No, that's Indulgences

So pugatory is like a little hell.

In short protestants don't need it. Those that are fit to go directly to heaven go straight away. (As will those who are spared the end times during the rapture).

Those who are condemened to hell go straight there. (I suppose from a catholic perspective, it is similar to those who have commited mortal sins).

The rest will not experience anything until judgment day, when the dead will rise from their graves and the oceans give up &ct.

This is why devout protestants of some sects refuse cremation and insist upon burial.

Then again, some protestants don't except that hell even exists.

oh, sorry, guess im goin to hell... anyone wanna join me?

oh, sorry, guess im goin to hell... anyone wanna join me?
Yup!

So why are you going to hell?

What's wrong with popery anyway.
It isn't so much the word itself, but the way it is historically been used. Popery is for Catholics what the 'n' word is for Blacks (however I would say that the latter case is worse then the former for a variety of reasons), in that it is a term of deliberate offence for that group and is very much a derogatory word.

Anyway too Purgatory.

IIRC from my Religious Education classes. The justification for purgatory comes from Jesus instructing us to pray for those that have died. Now, logically it is stupid to pray for anyone in Hell (it isn't as if they can leave) or Heaven (by definition they are in paradise), which means another state must exist. Purgatory was explained that most people were too impure to be in Gods presence, and had to go though a process of cleancing to get rid of the venal sins (after all that is what purgatory means, purging).

Limbo, AFAIK, was created during a time of high infant mortality. The Church knew it would struggle to keep members if innocents were seen to be damned due to their live span (ie in a state of [original] sin, but not being given the chance to be baptised). Limbo was created, with the 'virtuous pagan' also being put in their (that is people who never had the chance to convert but led good lives), really as the first PR job.

Onto the day of judgement, afterlife etc. Time only exists in this world, when we die we are judged, with no waiting period for the world to collapse etc, time doesn't exist in the afterlife so as soon as we die it is the day of judgement for all mankind. Kinda screwy.

Anyway, this is what I remember of my Religious Education at school so may be wrong.


::EDIT:: Didn't see that article CE posted. Meh, spent a lot of time writing this out. Not going to delete it now. :p

Purgatory is an essential Christian doctrine, with basis in Scripture and the Church.

Is there a difference between Purgatory and Limbo?
AFAIK, purgatory is where you go to wait to be let into heaven, while limbo is eternal: you're not bad enough to go to hell, but you're not good enough to go to heaven, so you get left in limbo.

holy shit catholic europe, you still there man?

Purgatory is an essential Christian doctrine, with basis in Scripture and the Church.

but scripture and the chuch were created by man!!

Faith in God can be quite seperate..

From my understanding purgatory comes from a difference in interpreting something Jesus said to his fellow crucificiees in Luke xxiii 43;

Protestants:
"Verily, I say unto thee. This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise".

...here the theifs go straight to heavan with Jesus

Catholics:
"Verily I say unto thee this day, Thou shalt be with me in Paradise".

...which promises heavan later on, but not yet - allowing the concept of puragtory to exist.

The only difference between the two is punctuation (which doesn't exist in the Hebrew origional)

holy shit catholic europe, you still there man?

Yes, yes I am.

but scripture and the chuch were created by man!!

Wrong, both were created by Jesus with the disciples helping to spread his 'creation'.

Wrong, both were created by Jesus with the disciples helping to spread his 'creation'.

how naive.

how naive.

That's a matter of personal opinion.