NationStates Jolt Archive

Since its Christmas and all I thought I would share some of my thoughts, now, these are all just speculative, what if, well maybes, and such. Read at your own risks, but know that I am in no way a racist, discriminater nor do I hold any person as inferior. Equal to all, greater then none.

What if the Hebrews were G-d's chosen people and that they had a special place in the future events beyond the mortal years of life. Following what the bible says they are were the priests come from, they are were the prayers are from, they attend the temple of G-d and they bring the Prophets to show what G-d expects of us. They are the clergy of the world.

From the start they have a foe, someone that challenges them, The Adversary. He is always on guard, trying to bring down the hebrews, trying to show G-d that they aren't as good enough to be the Chosen. After all, they are so inferior, and so The Adversary sets out to prove just that. He finds everyway to do this. He challenges them with all the "mortal sins". Greed, lust, Glutteny, the whole nine yards. He get some of them, but for the most part they stay true. They get led into slavery, still they come back, they keep falling, but they come back, and G-d always forgives them. This just furthers The Adversary's feelings that these Hebrews are not worthy of G-d's attention, and so he tries harder.
Now he takes the law and starts pushing it, taking the people away from G-d and towards the law instead. It starts to work, they start looking at the law, if they follow the law, thats all thats needed, its not faith or the heart, its how well you know and use the law. At last, the Adversary has a foothold, something that he can use to bring these Hebrews down. But it doesn't last, they still wish to follow the will of G-d. He starts to grow restless.

Then this guy named Jesus comes along, the son of G-d. So The Adversary goes after him, surely if he can make the Christ fall, then he will be able to prove that G-d was wrong, and that these Hebrews would be forgotten. He goes after him, tests him over and over again, but still the laws stop him in his tracts. He grows upset, he can't do anything against these Hebrews. Then it happens, Jesus says that not only are the Hebrews marked for G-d, but now anyone can be marked for G-d too, all they have to do is have faith in this Jesus, not laws, but just faith, so the Adversary can't have this. He enters one of Jesus's men, turns him against him. Turns the hebrews against this Jesus, if he dies, then his message will be lost. Its working, the Hebrews turn on Jesus, they kill him, but it just furthers the cause. In his death a great power is released, and The Adversary gets expelled from heaven.

Now The Adversary is on earth. The hebrews are still waiting for the Messiah to come, yet even the Christians describe the Messiah coming, a great warrior that saves the world, where he rules the earth. Though the Christians see it as the 2nd coming, where the hebrews still see it as the first coming, but that will all make sence. The adversary is stumped. So he lays low for awhile.

People start forgetting about the Adversary, after all, if he isn't there to challenge them, then he must not exist. The Christians and the Hebrews fight amongst themselves, trying to prove themselves over each other, the Romans stir up a lot of trouble turning it into a military thing to back Christ and a political one to keep turning around on the Christian issue. If its popular, then even Caeser is christian, but when its not, then Caeser is still a true roman.

The Adversary during this time has found a new loop hole to use. A forgotten branch of the Hebrew family. It seems that at one time this guy name Abraham had a child against the will of G-d and bot he and his mother were cast out. So the Adversary goes to these people. Appears as a great angel to them, telling them that any that come from G-d are Prophets, and that they bring the will of G-d. It is through the will of G-d that all things must happen. Not faith, not sacrifice, but through the Law. He tells them that this is the true message that the Christians and the Hebrews had twisted. His followers grow.

Years pass, and now the three major players in the religion side of things are the Christians, with their message of Faith; the Jews, through sacrifice and obeying the commandments they find redemption; and Islamics, who through the Prophets and the Law of Allah is there perfection.

Now the Christians feel that when their Christ comes again, they will be pulled into heaven, and everyone else is to face a time of tests. Christ will come and save the believers from a great enemy that has its capitol in Babylon. Then he will rule the earth in peace, bringing all the earth into a 1000 years of peace and prosperity.

The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come, and when he comes they will become his church, and the Messiah will save them from the world. The Messiah will rule the earth, and it will be a time of peace and prosperity. The holy kingdom will be rebuilt, and all the world will know the true G-d.

The Islamics feel that they are in a war. Only two houses exist, that of islam and that of war. Jews and Christians can live under Islam law, but only until the Islam house has weakness. They use the law that was given to them by the Angel to purefy the world. They will rebuild their capitol of Babylon, and usher in the new world. Allah will give the trees and rocks voices so all the foes of Islam will be revealed, and they can be cast into Hell.

to long to read.

to long to read.
here, I'll break it down into two posts.

Since its Christmas and all I thought I would share some of my thoughts, now, these are all just speculative, what if, well maybes, and such. Read at your own risks, but know that I am in no way a racist, discriminater nor do I hold any person as inferior. Equal to all, greater then none.

What if the Hebrews were G-d's chosen people and that they had a special place in the future events beyond the mortal years of life. Following what the bible says they are were the priests come from, they are were the prayers are from, they attend the temple of G-d and they bring the Prophets to show what G-d expects of us. They are the clergy of the world.

From the start they have a foe, someone that challenges them, The Adversary. He is always on guard, trying to bring down the hebrews, trying to show G-d that they aren't as good enough to be the Chosen. After all, they are so inferior, and so The Adversary sets out to prove just that. He finds everyway to do this. He challenges them with all the "mortal sins". Greed, lust, Glutteny, the whole nine yards. He get some of them, but for the most part they stay true. They get led into slavery, still they come back, they keep falling, but they come back, and G-d always forgives them. This just furthers The Adversary's feelings that these Hebrews are not worthy of G-d's attention, and so he tries harder.
Now he takes the law and starts pushing it, taking the people away from G-d and towards the law instead. It starts to work, they start looking at the law, if they follow the law, thats all thats needed, its not faith or the heart, its how well you know and use the law. At last, the Adversary has a foothold, something that he can use to bring these Hebrews down. But it doesn't last, they still wish to follow the will of G-d. He starts to grow restless.

Then this guy named Jesus comes along, the son of G-d. So The Adversary goes after him, surely if he can make the Christ fall, then he will be able to prove that G-d was wrong, and that these Hebrews would be forgotten. He goes after him, tests him over and over again, but still the laws stop him in his tracts. He grows upset, he can't do anything against these Hebrews. Then it happens, Jesus says that not only are the Hebrews marked for G-d, but now anyone can be marked for G-d too, all they have to do is have faith in this Jesus, not laws, but just faith, so the Adversary can't have this. He enters one of Jesus's men, turns him against him. Turns the hebrews against this Jesus, if he dies, then his message will be lost. Its working, the Hebrews turn on Jesus, they kill him, but it just furthers the cause. In his death a great power is released, and The Adversary gets expelled from heaven.

Now The Adversary is on earth. The hebrews are still waiting for the Messiah to come, yet even the Christians describe the Messiah coming, a great warrior that saves the world, where he rules the earth. Though the Christians see it as the 2nd coming, where the hebrews still see it as the first coming, but that will all make sence. The adversary is stumped. So he lays low for awhile.

People start forgetting about the Adversary, after all, if he isn't there to challenge them, then he must not exist. The Christians and the Hebrews fight amongst themselves, trying to prove themselves over each other, the Romans stir up a lot of trouble turning it into a military thing to back Christ and a political one to keep turning around on the Christian issue. If its popular, then even Caeser is christian, but when its not, then Caeser is still a true roman.

"Jews, Christians, Islams"

I was with you until you referred to Muslims as "Islams". Thats worse than "Islamist". At least you didn't call them "Mohammedians" :rolleyes:

The Adversary during this time has found a new loop hole to use. A forgotten branch of the Hebrew family. It seems that at one time this guy name Abraham had a child against the will of G-d and bot he and his mother were cast out. So the Adversary goes to these people. Appears as a great angel to them, telling them that any that come from G-d are Prophets, and that they bring the will of G-d. It is through the will of G-d that all things must happen. Not faith, not sacrifice, but through the Law. He tells them that this is the true message that the Christians and the Hebrews had twisted. His followers grow.

Years pass, and now the three major players in the religion side of things are the Christians, with their message of Faith; the Jews, through sacrifice and obeying the commandments they find redemption; and Islamics, who through the Prophets and the Law of Allah is there perfection.

Now the Christians feel that when their Christ comes again, they will be pulled into heaven, and everyone else is to face a time of tests. Christ will come and save the believers from a great enemy that has its capitol in Babylon. Then he will rule the earth in peace, bringing all the earth into a 1000 years of peace and prosperity.

The Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come, and when he comes they will become his church, and the Messiah will save them from the world. The Messiah will rule the earth, and it will be a time of peace and prosperity. The holy kingdom will be rebuilt, and all the world will know the true G-d.

The Islamics feel that they are in a war. Only two houses exist, that of islam and that of war. Jews and Christians can live under Islam law, but only until the Islam house has weakness. They use the law that was given to them by the Angel to purefy the world. They will rebuild their capitol of Babylon, and usher in the new world. Allah will give the trees and rocks voices so all the foes of Islam will be revealed, and they can be cast into Hell.

"Jews, Christians, Islams"

I was with you until you referred to Muslims as "Islams". Thats worse than "Islamist". At least you didn't call them "Mohammedians" :rolleyes:

Couldn't remember how to spell Muslims, so I didn't want to misspell it.

How does the Zoroastrian worldview fit into all this? is Angra Mainyu the nemesis as well? Or are they just Pagans that don't fit into your philosophy.

so you can type something that long and not google a word for spelling?

How does the Zoroastrian worldview fit into all this? is Angra Mainyu the nemesis as well? Or are they just Pagans that don't fit into your world view.

Pagans fit into it all. After all the Druids were the first people to start Church's in Europe. They made them in nature where G-d shaped it, not man. But this went against the Catholic/Roman belief that you could only call it a church if it was made by the Catholic/Roman's and it had to be stone cut and placed by man.

so you can type something that long and not google a word for spelling?

I'm used to using spell check on my Microsoft Word. I'm a writer, not an editor.

I was referring specifically to the Zoroastrians of ancient Iran though. The ones that influenced the development of Judaism, and were the first Middle Eastern monotheistic faith. They also had links to Hinduism. How does that all work?

you may be a writer but
my complaining could power a small city

I was referring specifically to the Zoroastrians of ancient Iran though. The ones that influenced the development of Judaism, and were the first Middle Eastern monotheistic faith. They also had links to Hinduism. How does that all work?


Kinda like if it were like in the Bible when it speaks of Eden and those that lived outside of Eden, in Nod. They all knew G-d, and they remained strong until after the coruptian of The Adversary effected them, and then they died out for the most part. They weren't the chosen ones, they were G-d's creations, but not held higher. Can't be jealous of someone that just knows there is only one G-d but doesn't get the spotlight.

you may be a writer but
my complaining could power a small city


hot air to boil water to turn turbines.

actually he was quoting homestarrunner.com .

actually he was quoting homestarrunner.com .
Trogdor!!

strong sad says whining not complaining

strong sad says whining not complaining
Burnanate!!! :gundge: :sniper:

must either be a slow topic, or a slow night

I was hoping people could give me some ideas or thoughts on this, oh well.

So the Adversary goes to these people. Appears as a great angel to them, telling them that any that come from G-d are Prophets, and that they bring the will of G-d.

The Islamics feel that they are in a war. Only two houses exist, that of islam and that of war. Jews and Christians can live under Islam law, but only until the Islam house has weakness. They use the law that was given to them by the Angel to purefy the world. They will rebuild their capitol of Babylon, and usher in the new world. Allah will give the trees and rocks voices so all the foes of Islam will be revealed, and they can be cast into Hell.

Wow ... you have a really distorted view of what Islam is all about. Before I go into the whole picking apart thing, I have to ask .... do you really believe it was "The Adversary" (ie Satan) who gave Muhammed the message that created Muslims?

So .... I'm from Satan? Not a smart way to set a good impression, ya know.

Rebuild our capitol of Babylon?! Babylon was a Jewish city run by Jewish kings. The Muslim "capitol" has always been Mecca (for a brief time it was Medina) in Saudi Arabia and is in no need of rebuilding.

Wow ... you have a really distorted view of what Islam is all about. Before I go into the whole picking apart thing, I have to ask .... do you really believe it was "The Adversary" (ie Satan) who gave Muhammed the message that created Muslims?

So .... I'm from Satan? Not a smart way to set a good impression, ya know.

Gabriel gave the Law to Muhammed, according to Islamic belief, as well as they feel that Michael weeps for what Satan has brought upon the earth.

Now, if Satan is the deceiver, and he is also an angel, couldn't he bring a false concept to a man that had just signed a peace treaty with a city, just to turn around and conquer them in the name of the law?

Gabriel gave the Law to Muhammed, according to Islamic belief, as well as they feel that Michael weeps for what Satan has brought upon the earth.

Now, if Satan is the deceiver, and he is also an angel, couldn't he bring a false concept to a man that had just signed a peace treaty with a city, just to turn around and conquer them in the name of the law?

What law? The Qur'an is a message of peace and brotherhood.

As for the Babylon part, it was once a great city of the Muslim world, that held much of the great schools. Mecca is a holy city yes, but Babylon was still important as a focus of the Muslim kingdom. Its also close to where garden of Eden was, where most of the old kingdoms were and such. Its also where a war is being waged now, Iraq.

As for the Babylon part, it was once a great city of the Muslim world, that held much of the great schools. Mecca is a holy city yes, but Babylon was still important as a focus of the Muslim kingdom. Its also close to where garden of Eden was, where most of the old kingdoms were and such. Its also where a war is being waged now, Iraq.

Babylon was destroyed long before Muhammed was born. Hell ... even in Nebuchadnezzar's (Jewish King) time, it was the Neo-Babylonian Empire ... and that was 1000 years before Muhammed.

Even the Parthians showed up 300 years before Muhammed.

Babylon - which doesn't exist anymore - didn't come into the hands of Muslims until the 600s and Mecca was the capitol. It's never been Babylon.

What law? The Qur'an is a message of peace and brotherhood.
In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

And had you seen when the angels will cause to die those who disbelieve, smiting their faces and their backs, and (saying): Taste the punishment of burning.

This is for that which your own hands have sent before (to the Judgment), and (know) that Allah is not a tyrant to His slaves.

And let not those who disbelieve think that they shall come in first; surely they will not escape.And prepare against them what force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you do not know (but) Allah knows them; and whatever thing you will spend in Allah's way, it will be paid back to you fully and you shall not be dealt with unjustly.

O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand.

It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise

I was referring specifically to the Zoroastrians of ancient Iran though. The ones that influenced the development of Judaism, and were the first Middle Eastern monotheistic faith. They also had links to Hinduism. How does that all work?

Fact check time: Most historians and scholars have come to the conclusion, based mostly on his style of writing, that Zarathustra lived around 1200-1500 BCE whereas Moses is determined to be circa 2000 BCE.

Zarathustra, thus, could not have influenced Judaism. Some of the later Jewish prophets to be sure, but not Torah. Judaism is still considered to be the Middle East's first monotheistic religion.

However - and I've said this before - just because something is older doesn't necessarily mean it is better.

Babylon was destroyed long before Muhammed was born. Hell ... even in Nebuchadnezzar's (Jewish King) time, it was the Neo-Babylonian Empire ... and that was 1000 years before Muhammed.

Even the Parthians showed up 300 years before Muhammed.

Babylon - which doesn't exist anymore - didn't come into the hands of Muslims until the 600s and Mecca was the capitol. It's never been Babylon.

which is it? Was babylon destroyed long before Muhammed or was it after his death in the 600s?

In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.

... <clipped>


Where are you getting this horrid interpretation? By Qur'an, Muslims are not permitted to go to war unless it is in self-defense. The word "Infidel" is not used in Qur'an ever. Muslims are commanded to treat Jews, Christians, and even unbelievers with respect, charity, and kindness.

Where are you getting this horrid interpretation? By Qur'an, Muslims are not permitted to go to war unless it is in self-defense. The word "Infidel" is not used in Qur'an ever. Muslims are commanded to treat Jews, Christians, and even unbelievers with respect, charity, and kindness.


Didn't use the word infidel. As for the horrid interpretation, its a copy that I have. coming from Chapter 8, so to speak. If its wrong, please, could I see what a correct version should say?

which is it? Was babylon destroyed long before Muhammed or was it after his death in the 600s?

Babylon was gone long before Muhammed. The area that it used to be in was still around, sure, but there was no Babylon when Muhammed was born.

Mecca, not Babylon, is now and always has been the Muslim capitol.

To repeat what I said:

Babylon was destroyed long before Muhammed was born. Hell ... even in Nebuchadnezzar's (Jewish King) time, it was the Neo-Babylonian Empire ... and that was 1000 years before Muhammed.

Didn't use the word infidel. As for the horrid interpretation, its a copy that I have. coming from Chapter 8, so to speak. If its wrong, please, could I see what a correct version should say?

Surah al Anfal deals with the spoils of war, yes, but is a direct response to the Battle of Badr. There are 75 ayat (verses) in the Surah you mention which cannot be taken individually.

Pulling a single verse without context can lead to some misinterpretations, but unfortunately I can't find anything within the Surah that reads anything like you posted.

which is it? Was babylon destroyed long before Muhammed or was it after his death in the 600s?
babylon destroyed long before jesus. I don't think the islam could connect to babylon.
and about the jewish. they wasn't kill Jesus. this was one jew man who tell rome about jesus revolution, and the romans kill him.
also, the jewish massiah has no aims about the world. as I know he going to rebuild the temple in jerusalem, and gave the jewish their holy countrey again. the fact we build a countrey without him, greate the antgonism in radical jewish communities.
and about the christian massiah. as I know they had no massiah, they had antichrist or something, that bring the apocalypse to earth.

Are you confusing the city of Babylon of Biblical times with the city of Baghdad? Baghdad became the capital of Islam during the Abbasid Caliphate. Babylon never was the capital. Hell, Babylon, like Keruvalia mentioned, did not even exist (well, as a major city) at all when the Muslims liberated Iraq.

And I just went over Surat Al Anfal in its entirity.. in Arabic.. and I must say, that interpretation of yours is not the most accurate.

In order that Allah may separate the impure from the pure, put the impure, one on another, heap them together, and cast them into Hell. They will be the ones to have lost.



Aha! Found it. I can see how it may be disconcerting, but you've left out quite a few chunks, mainly the bits about war not being for material spoils, but to fight only for Truth.

Abdullah Yusuf Ali puts it best with:

Fight the good fight, but dispute not
About the prize: that is for Allah
To give. Men of faith act and obey.
'Tis nobler to fight for Truth
Than to seek wordly gain.
To the pure in faith Allah will give
The mind and the resources to conquer.

What this basically means is that fighting for glory or power is a cause doomed to fail. I can easily cite Osama bin Laden's fight, which he is losing, because he fights for power and glory, not for Truth. He kills the innocent and he revels in the attention he gets.

Are you confusing the city of Babylon of Biblical times with the city of Baghdad? Baghdad became the capital of Islam during the Abbasid Caliphate. Babylon never was the capital. Hell, Babylon, like Keruvalia mentioned, did not even exist (well, as a major city) at all when the Muslims liberated Iraq.

And I just went over Surat Al Anfal in its entirity.. in Arabic.. and I must say, that interpretation of yours is not the most accurate.

Then what does it say?

And I just went over Surat Al Anfal in its entirity.. in Arabic.. and I must say, that interpretation of yours is not the most accurate.

At any rate, it's a good read. I see it as a great message of hope. I can see, however, that a few key turns of phrases and *poof* it looks like a call to kill everyone in a seething rampage.

But, as we've always said, men will come along and corrupt even a Divine message.

Then what does it say?

The three major translations can be read (right with each other) here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html

Be sure to read the commentary as well:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau8.html

At any rate, it's a good read. I see it as a great message of hope. I can see, however, that a few key turns of phrases and *poof* it looks like a call to kill everyone in a seething rampage.

But, as we've always said, men will come along and corrupt even a Divine message.

I see versus that say to kill and destroy those that oppose, and I see it say not to build one's self up unrightously. Yet, when I say these things, and you tell me that I'm wrong, I ask you to show me. Why can't you?

The three major translations can be read (right with each other) here:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html

Be sure to read the commentary as well:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau8.html


so my translation is wrong? and yet you give me a link to where I go....

babylon destroyed long before jesus. I don't think the islam could connect to babylon.
and about the jewish. they wasn't kill Jesus. this was one jew man who tell rome about jesus revolution, and the romans kill him.
also, the jewish massiah has no aims about the world. as I know he going to rebuild the temple in jerusalem, and gave the jewish their holy countrey again. the fact we build a countrey without him, greate the antgonism in radical jewish communities.
and about the christian massiah. as I know they had no massiah, they had antichrist or something, that bring the apocalypse to earth.

The romans didn't kill him. They may have overseen it, but they said it was up to the populace, and that they wouldn't interfere.

The Jewish Messiah is one to bring peace, and he will be a great ruler. He will rebuild the Temple and restore the connection of G-d to the people.

Christ was the Christian Messiah. He is said to come again and stand against the forces of the Anti-Christ.

so my translation is wrong? and yet you give me a link to where I go....

And you should be pissed off at that?

That link happens to be my prime destination whenever an argument about the Quran starts with English speakers. And yet, even *I* don't fully agree with the interpretation provided in that link.

If you really want to be critical of the Quran, and mind you you have every right to be, then you should really review the primary source. There are plenty of things you cannot translate into English. In English, it's just plain verses. But not in Arabic. In Arabic, it's a continuous story, simply because the language flows in that manner. You cannot take things out of the damn context and label that your 'critical review' of the 'barbaric Muslim scripture'..

There is NO such thing as a translation of the Quran. I can try to interpret the Surah for you if you want.. but it will be like a story, a complete review. No set verses labelled (1), (2), etc.. because that does not work.

so my translation is wrong? and yet you give me a link to where I go....

Your translation is ok, but you chopped off 90% of the Surah! That leads to people taking things out of context.

Oh, and here's a link to the Arabic Surah (http://quran.islamway.com/agmy/008.ram)..

And you should be pissed off at that?

That link happens to be my prime destination whenever an argument about the Quran starts with English speakers. And yet, even *I* don't fully agree with the interpretation provided in that link.

If you really want to be critical of the Quran, and mind you you have every right to be, then you should really review the primary source. There are plenty of things you cannot translate into English. In English, it's just plain verses. But not in Arabic. In Arabic, it's a continuous story, simply because the language flows in that manner. You cannot take things out of the damn context and label that your 'critical review' of the 'barbaric Muslim scripture'..

There is NO such thing as a translation of the Quran. I can try to interpret the Surah for you if you want.. but it will be like a story, a complete review. No set verses labelled (1), (2), etc.. because that does not work.


I never said anything about barbaric muslim scripture or that it was my critical review. I was just giving an idea of the end times, and such. I only persisted against people when they would make a statement, and then would say I was wrong, but give no details into what I was wrong about or how I was. I started this post to get ideas, not just, "you're wrong"

Your translation is ok, but you chopped off 90% of the Surah! That leads to people taking things out of context.


I did take things out of context, though I did so as people oft do to other religious books. People are always cutting the Bible, the Torah, and any other religious book they get ahold of. They say what they feel it is saying, and they give points on where they think their point is shown.

When someone says that you must follow Jesus, they don't bring everything that he said to you, but rather they bring up points that they feel are important.

The romans didn't kill him. They may have overseen it, but they said it was up to the populace, and that they wouldn't interfere.
the jewish didn't kill him. the roman governor in isreal province kill him. just know that jesus wasn't the only one to die like that.
in the day he was killed, the roman crucifyat least 3 more men who try to start revolutions, and had no connection to him.
the popuace blamed for that only because after some hundreds years rome become christian and rewrite the history.

the jewish didn't kill him. the roman governor in isreal province kill him. just know that jesus wasn't the only one to die like that.
in the day he was killed, the roman crucifyat least 3 more men who try to start revolutions, and had no connection to him.
the popuace blamed for that only because after some hundreds years rome become christian and rewrite the history.

The Jews didn't kill Jesus, you're right, it was a select group that made the mob think that he had raised up against G-d and that he had said he was g-d. Mob mentality. Rome had set up a system of government where it was the main ruleing party, but it allowed the nations it had conquerd to have a rule as well, as they did in nearly every nation they beat. Thus when it was time to execute Jesus he said it was up to them what to do. The Roman empire may have scapegoated it by saying its not on them, and then provided the resources, but it was not the roman government that tried him, or it would have been a trial.

Since I didn't see anyone correct it, I might as well point it out. Babylon was never a Jewish city, and Nebuchadnezzer was certainly not a Jew. Heck, it was Babylon who took the Israelites into captivity.

Since I didn't see anyone correct it, I might as well point it out. Babylon was never a Jewish city, and Nebuchadnezzer was certainly not a Jew. Heck, it was Babylon who took the Israelites into captivity.


the term Jew is a new term. Back then I think they were called Hebrews. Decendents of Abraham

I wasn't accusing you, Slinao.. I was just ranting and venting.. I guess... =/

Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you :p

the term Jew is a new term. Back then I think they were called Hebrews. Decendents of Abraham

Fine, but my point still stands. Babylon was never a Hebrew city. And Nebuchadnezzer was not a Hebrew. For most of Babylon's existence it was enemies with Judah/Israel.

The Jews didn't kill Jesus, you're right, it was a select group that made the mob think that he had raised up against G-d and that he had said he was g-d. .

It was the Jews. THe religious one's actually. The Pharisee's and Seducee's etc etc. The people that kept the Jewish law.
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Spot on Slinao on your story concerning Jews, Christians and Islams. At least from the way I view it.

I wasn't accusing you, Slinao.. I was just ranting and venting.. I guess... =/

Sorry if it seemed like I was attacking you :p

just making sure my point was being made, I blame no race for the death of Jesus, from a personal belief I feel that I killed Jesus. It was for my sin that he was to die, and the sin of the world. Why blame the reason of his death in a negitve way? I see it as an embarassment that someone else had to save me, but I realize it was done out of love, and that I am but a child to this world, meant to become an adult upon my death.

Death is only leaving the world of the known, and becoming known to a world unknow.

Spot on Slinao on your story concerning Jews, Christians and Islams. At least from the way I view it.

Spot on from a Christian perspective. I think Jews and particularly Muslims would have a problem with it.

Fine, but my point still stands. Babylon was never a Hebrew city. And Nebuchadnezzer was not a Hebrew. For most of Babylon's existence it was enemies with Judah/Israel.


Wasn't trying to correct, just trying to show the right word for time frame, though I'm gulity of using the wrong one often too.

*now has spots, feels like a pup that Cruella DeVill wants to hunt*
:sniper:
lol

Fine, but my point still stands. Babylon was never a Hebrew city. And Nebuchadnezzer was not a Hebrew. For most of Babylon's existence it was enemies with Judah/Israel.
wait, Coresh who help the jewish back to Israel and rebuild the temple, was he the leader of Ashur, or the next leader of Babylon?
I already forget that facts.

It was the Jews. THe religious one's actually. The Pharisee's and Seducee's etc etc. The people that kept the Jewish law.
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Spot on Slinao on your story concerning Jews, Christians and Islams. At least from the way I view it.
actually they was the jewish high class.
many times the important rabbis come from the low class, and they was the religious ones.
the high class was corupt and they steal money from the poors. jesus was good, because he tried to fight them, but he never attacked the judaism, or died because of the jewish.
It always the rich's fault in the end.

wait Coresh who help the jewish back to Israel and rebuild the temple, was he the leader of Ashur, or the next leader of Babylon?
I already forget that facts.

Hmmm, now you're getting to parts of the Old Testament my memory is fuzzy on. I think it was the Persians, under the rule of Darius, who freed the Hebrews from captivity. I don't recall who helped them rebuild the temple though.

And no worries Slinao. The only reason I used Jew the first time was because I thought I saw someone use it earlier. Just trying to stay consistent within the thread.

Actually when the bible talks about Babylon (especially in Revelations), I particularly don't think it's meaning the physical Babylon or Iraq.

Rather Babylon is a symbol as a city or society full of hedonistic pleasure and sin, because there was a time when Jeruselam fell, and the hebrews were divided among the nations. And Babylon was their capital (I think during that time, I have to double check). So in a kind of way, they despised the Babylonians.

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Uh yeah. Spot on for a Christian perspective according to Stormforge. Thanks for the correction.
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LIke Slinao says, Jesus was a sacrifice. He didn't resisted the Romans remember? And when he died he did ask for forgiveness for the people who went against him for they did not know what they were doing.

Actually when the bible talks about Babylon (especially in Revelations), I particularly don't think it's meaning the physical Babylon or Iraq.

Rather Babylon is a symbol as a city or society full of hedonistic pleasure and sin, because there was a time when Jeruselam fell, and the hebrews were divided among the nations. And Babylon was their capital (I think during that time, I have to double check). So in a kind of way, they despised the Babylonians.

-------------------------------------
Uh yeah. Spot on for a Christian perspective according to Stormforge. Thanks for the correction.
----------------------------------

LIke Slinao says, Jesus was a sacrifice. He didn't resisted the Romans remember? And when he died he did ask for forgiveness for the people who went against him for they did not know what they were doing.


I do believe that the term babylon was/is a term for the type of lifestyle found in babylon, according to the bible. Though I think when it speaks of the capitol being babylon, it refers to the actual place, cause then it falls in with how the AntiChrist will be returning home, but will be side tracked to the holy mount. which is in the same region

Bloody christians

Bloody christians
yes, very bloody. after all, Christians are built around Jesus dying on the cross, and by the BLOOD they are saved. ;)

added a poll, maybe this will help with more yes nos maybe so

there we go, more data to compile in my notebook of things bounced in my head.

Actually no need for the polls.

Most like you'll get is that SOME Christians would probably agree. To some extent.

Non Christians would go No. Quite simple as that.

Actually no need for the polls.

Most like you'll get is that Christians would probably agree. To some extent.

Non Christians would go No. Quite simple as that.

yeah, most likely, though I was hopeing perhaps people would use poll data to make responces too, though it seems this thread is dying, oh well. It did some good anyway.

MOst likely it's like that.

Especially we are treading on a topic where most are unfamiliar with. Plus it's the holidays, all are probably out getting drunk.

And to some like me, where I'm on a holiday and no friends in sight have to sit at home and talk crap on the internet. :(

MOst likely it's like that.

Especially we are treading on a topic where most are unfamiliar with. Plus it's the holidays, all are probably out getting drunk.

And to some like me, where I'm on a holiday and no friends in sight have to sit at home and talk crap on the internet. :(


Better then taking a crap on the internet. and yes, its probaly an unfamilar topic, I think I could bring it to some Christian pastors and they wouldn't understand it either. They would try to see how it fits into their doctrine

Fits into their doctrine. Not much actually. Perhaps a better view on other religions, that they have stemmed from the same idea at some point. Especially when it comes to the Jews, and muslims.

BUt the matter of the fact is that other religions are still finding righteousness through good works and the laws, whereas Christianity is one step further, in believing righteousness if by faith through Christ Jesus and not one's good works because God's standards is perfection.

Most pastors just study the bible. (well, most pastors don't read it either :p). Hence you get those on the television bible bashing non-believers shouting at their faces that their going to hell for their sins fire and brimstone style.

Fits into their doctrine. Not much actually. Perhaps a better view on other religions, that they have stemmed from the same idea at some point. Especially when it comes to the Jews, and muslims.

BUt the matter of the fact is that other religions are still finding righteousness through good works and the laws, whereas Christianity is one step further, in believing righteousness if by faith through Christ Jesus and not one's good works because God's standards is perfection.

Most pastors just study the bible. (well, most pastors don't read it either :p). Hence you get those on the television bible bashing non-believers shouting at their faces that their going to hell for their sins fire and brimstone style.
yeah, those people always make me wonder if they ever read that which they preach. Burn in hell heathens sounds soooo old testament, lol.

What law? The Qur'an is a message of peace and brotherhood.

Whats an Infidel and what gives them the right to think they are the Lord's Executioners - when the Lord can do the job just fine himself?

This question is not mine it's one that must be asked in light of all those getting media attention claiming to represent Islam - when they are neither dedicated to Allah or at peace. I was just wondering how you explain these peoples reasoning - the ones that are as twisted as the Roman Catholics since the 5th century in thinking the entire world must eventually be converted or killed to be saved and that the word of thier leaders is infalable.


I know Islam is capable of peace and harmony. I have studyied the fastest growing religion in the world a little. And heres my theory - you were given a measage by the angel Gabriel. But none of that measage was written down - at least none of the original copies survives today. Just parts and pieces, here and there. A few hundred years later a muslim order takes on the job of putting it all together. But the Adversary to use the language of this thread was there - as he has not usually been before - defeated and agnered in the extreme and determined he seeks to twist the measage of truth as he has already done to a now mainstream christianity in all it's different flavors of fallasy. And he confuses the scholars and preist and spiritual leaders and they cannot put together the truth in all it's entirety. Maybe it was the Adversary, maybe it was them and there inability to except the most important law of all, maybe it was that they could not believe the measage of christianity as it's apearent hypocrasy say bless you while they take your land and suppress those that dont believe with the sword in their own lands.

The result is a people who believe that the Prophets came to speak the truth and to rebuke and keep Gods people on the right tract if they were willing - from Abram to Jesus to Mohammed[sorry if my spelling is not correct] - But they lost the measage. The greatest law of all according to Jesus himself is that you must Love your God the LORD with all your heart, soul and mind." I believe so call believers in every religion on this planet say they do but disown the LORD with thier works and thier actions.

Jesus taught christians and his followers, those that believe and listen to the measage of truth, those that hear his voice - to turn the other cheek, to sheath the sword and taht those who live by the sword will die by the sword - later in the 1st century they still had it right when it was said that whoever it is that is working righteousness in all the earth is acceptable to God. And to return evil for evil to no one.

Both Islam and Chritianity today is guilty of not listening to the truth and following the law. May you not be found among the lawless ones when the messiah returns to rectify creation. Most important in these times is the law of christ - love for neighbor. The US has more love of money currently in its foreign policy than love of neihbor and less concern for the well being of thier fellow man - sometimes I am truely ashamed of being an american as I'm sure the apostle Paul was ashame of being a roman citizen.

My theory then is that they were given the truth but God allows the Adversary to test and try us all and in our imperfect and fallen state for us to test ourselves. Early Islam failed this test. But the truth is still there - and you guys are close to the truth in knowing that the jews once had God's favor - but exsist now mostly in a fallen state - as does most of so called Christianity, and if I may, at the risk of being utterly wrong in my large ignorance of Islam, so have the Muslims fallen from grace, most of them.

Salaam

Too long to read and too PC for my tastes ... you lost me when you substituted a - for the o in God! That's just so bogus.

BUt the matter of the fact is that other religions are still finding righteousness through good works and the laws, whereas Christianity is one step further, in believing righteousness if by faith through Christ Jesus and not one's good works because God's standards is perfection.


Just to clarify a few points - I have studyied scripture - but know I'm not a preist.

You must be more balanced in your arguement here the falasy of your statement - you say above that faith is all you need - Faith was defined well by the apostle Paul as the assured expectation of things to come although not yet beheld.

Such hope however doesnt motivate true christians to isolate themselves and wait on the fulfillment of God's promises - although it certainly should not motivate us to go beyond the law as many have and are doing. Faith in God motivates us to love and fine-good works is my point - and if it isnt producing these results in you, you have missed the purpose of the way of the truth.

James wrote, faith without works is dead.
That is works that honor God, and do not cause the people of this earth to question the truth and to stumble. Now tell me has a more moral values conscienteous america produced works like these or have they missed the purpose of the way of the truth? Can it really be said they are followers of Jesus when they employ the most power army on earth and they employ it recklessly when Jesus said sheath the sword.

The peace of the gun never last - and niether will this peace that america enjoys - just ask the Romans.

Too long to read and too PC for my tastes ... you lost me when you substituted a - for the o in God! That's just so bogus.
I take the o out to respect G-d, not for PC. Its so that none will accadently disrupt the holyness of G-d. It keeps people from accidently sinning by destroying the name of G-d and thus making it a vain useage. Its a note of respect, not PC.

I take the o out to respect G-d, not for PC. Its so that none will accadently disrupt the holyness of G-d. It keeps people from accidently sinning by destroying the name of G-d and thus making it a vain useage. Its a note of respect, not PC.
Hmmm. Well, if you say so. I thought that only applied to the Aramaic name of God.

I may, at the risk of being utterly wrong in my large ignorance of Islam, so have the Muslims fallen from grace, most of them.

Salaam

I think I'm only going to comment on this last bit. Not because I have nothing to say about the rest of it, but rather because I don't have time. I'll earmark it for later, though.

Now ....

Most? No ... I wouldn't say most. Out of 1.2 billion Muslims, less than 200,000 are members of what you would call "terrorist organizations" - you know ... those folks who strap on bombs and blow up school kids in the name of Allah.

Hardly most. The biggest chunk of problem is that many moderate and more liberal Muslim groups aren't vocal enough in their outrage. We live in a world where if it isn't out in the open for all to see, it must not exist. What this means is, if I don't actively and openly condemn Osama bin Laden, then I must, therefore, agree with Osama bin Laden.

Unfortunately, Muslims are commanded in Qur'an not to judge any man. We may judge his actions, but not the man himself. If we openly condemn anything other than the actions of ObL - which an overwhelming majority of Muslims do - then we are sinning against Allah, for judgement is His alone.

Thing is, though, we don't stand up in the media or speak to the President of the US about our condemnation of OBL's actions. No, we tell ObL himself.

theres one small problem.the religion of islam cannot rebuild babylon.

you see,babylon isnt just ONE nation it is a lineage of nations who share the sprit of babylon.when one nation falls that sprit of babylon moves to the next.but eventually the sprit of babylon will stop moveing untill it is reborn one last time,this will be herald of the endtimes.

babylon wont be reborn in place,but in sprit.
rome was the last anchient inheritor of babylon.and america IS rome.

Basically, Revelations says that the antichrist will rise up and will be the most powerful world leader in the world. To justify his terroristic actions, he will claim that God told him to do it. As time goes on, this leader will enforce a law saying that anyone wanting food, water, supplies, etc. must get the tag 666 on either their hand or their forehead. Those who get the mark will be doomed to damnation. Those who resist will more than likely be beheaded or killed in some other way, but will enjoy eternal life in Heaven with our Lord.

During this time, there will be many plagues facing the Earth. One scripture suggests that an asteroid will strike the Earth, blocking out the sun and such, and the priests and strong men will take shelter in the mountains. The asteroid will create a bottomless pit. This is the pit from which Satan will be unleashed. His armies will roam the Earth, while those who received the Holy Ghost and followed His Word will enjoy peace and tranquility in Heaven.

After some time, God will destroy the Earth and Heaven, and the 2nd Earth and Heaven will be created. There will be no death, no suffering, and there will be 1,000 years of peace until Satan must be released one last time upon the Earth. Then God will cast Satan into a lake of fire, where he will burn forever. Then God will rule the Earth and the Heavens.

That is my understanding of it.

A whole lotta cultural views at one time, could I get some pictures or something?

Basically, Revelations says that the antichrist will rise up and will be the most powerful world leader in the world. To justify his terroristic actions, he will claim that God told him to do it. As time goes on, this leader will enforce a law saying that anyone wanting food, water, supplies, etc.[A] must get the tag 666 on either their hand or their forehead. Those who get the mark will be doomed to damnation. Those who resist will more than likely be beheaded or killed in some other way, but will enjoy eternal life in Heaven with our Lord.

During this time, there will be many plagues facing the Earth. One scripture suggests that an asteroid will strike the Earth, blocking out the sun and such, and the priests and strong men will take shelter in the mountains.[B] The asteroid will create a bottomless pit. This is the pit from which Satan will be unleashed. His armies will roam the Earth, while those who received the Holy Ghost and followed His Word will enjoy peace and tranquility in Heaven.

[C]After some time, God will destroy the Earth and Heaven, and the 2nd Earth and Heaven will be created. There will be no death, no suffering, and there will be 1,000 years of peace until Satan must be released one last time upon the Earth. Then God will cast Satan into a lake of fire, where he will burn forever. Then God will rule the Earth and the Heavens.

That is my understanding of it.

[a] From readings of scripture this taking the mark will be something more then just getting a mark or brand, it will involve swearing yourself to the Antichrist and condemming the true G-d.

[b] The bottomless pit is already made, and during the end times one of the seals is the opening of this pit and the releaseing of the angel of the pit, Abbadon. Satan is already set loose on the earth right now by scripture.

[c] The 1000 years of peace and the final surge of Satan is all done before the new heaven and new earth. The new heaven and new earth is the final of it all, it will be a perfect place that G-d will live in, and new heaven aka the new temple, will be the capitol of the new earth. And by scripture G-d already rules the Heavens and the Earth, though Satan is currently the master of the Earth.

theres one small problem.the religion of islam cannot rebuild babylon.

you see,babylon isnt just ONE nation it is a lineage of nations who share the sprit of babylon.when one nation falls that sprit of babylon moves to the next.but eventually the sprit of babylon will stop moveing untill it is reborn one last time,this will be herald of the endtimes.

babylon wont be reborn in place,but in sprit.
rome was the last anchient inheritor of babylon.and america IS rome.


Depends on how you look at things. Babylon could be taken as a concept of all nations that are like Babylon, or it could be a physical location, or both. The bible is a multisided book, its written about a G-d that has a 7 fold spirit, and an entity of the trinity with 3 aspects yet all 1. Everything is a parable in the bible, with multiple views and understandings.

Hmmm. Well, if you say so. I thought that only applied to the Aramaic name of God.


Its a common practice in a lot of communities, very noticeable in Orthodox Jews.

Hardly most. The biggest chunk of problem is that many moderate and more liberal Muslim groups aren't vocal enough in their outrage.

Unfortunately if you must know, that there are very few moderate and liberal muslims in the world. Unless maybe muslims in Europe.

So far majoritily muslims I know in South East Asia and Middle East (With Indonesia being the largest Muslim nation), most are fundemantalist.

However few are extremist but their numbers are growing, unless a strong moderate muslim entity emerges.

research done

Unfortunately if you must know, that there are very few moderate and liberal muslims in the world. Unless maybe muslims in Europe.

So far majoritily muslims I know in South East Asia and Middle East (With Indonesia being the largest Muslim nation), most are fundemantalist.

However few are extremist but their numbers are growing, unless a strong moderate muslim entity emerges.

Source? I certainly don't feel very fundamentalist. I don't know a lot of fundamentalists either, and I know a lot of people. Hell, Muslims have been drifting from fundamentalism since the early 1960s, except Bin Laden and his party.

So.. proof?? Source? Show me.. Prove to me that the 1 billion Muslims living in Africa and Asia are all fundamentalists, each and every fucking one of them.

Unfortunately if you must know, that there are very few moderate and liberal muslims in the world. Unless maybe muslims in Europe.


Actually, most of us are quite liberal. It's just hard for an outsider to tell the difference. If you saw me on the street, you'd see my beard and my funny little hat and could assume I'm Muslim.

Upon following me, you might see me go into the Mosque and wash my face, feet, arms and hands before entering the main area and think, "wow, this guy's serious". You'll see in the main area that there are no chairs - everyone sits on the floor - and that I blend into this crowd at prayer time, standing right next to my brother, shoulder to shoulder, and prayer begins. Arabic words are intoned and everyone raises their hands to their ears and in unison says, "Allah Akbar". More Arabic is spoken and a series of positions continue from standing with arms crossed to bend over with hands on the knees to on the floor with knees, forehead, nose and palms on the floor.

You then may notice a screened area and peek in there and see women - all doing the same as the men.

You could follow me and see me do this same thing five times a day.

Does this make me "fundamentalist"? No, it does not. It makes me a Muslim. There is only one way to be Muslim. The Sunni, the Shiites, the Wahabbi, the Ismaili, and all other of the world's Muslims do this same thing and in the same ways - that is, at least, they're supposed to.

The extremists, on the other hand, don't. Many of the 19 people who took over the planes on 9/11 were seen the night before with hookers and getting lap dances and drinking alcohol. These men did not care for Allah and did not follow Muhammed's(pbuh) way.

Personally, and this is not meant to be offensive, I don't think you'd know the difference between a "fundamentalist" and a "liberal" Muslim if you saw them side by side in the same room.

What about the people of the Buddhist faith?

It looks like most people either don't care or they think Slinao has missed the boat with his hypothesis, according to his poll results.

Get your facts straight!

First of all, Jesus was Jewish.
Second, Romans killed Jesus

Religion is the root of all evil!

babylon destroyed long before jesus. I don't think the islam could connect to babylon.
and about the jewish. they wasn't kill Jesus. this was one jew man who tell rome about jesus revolution, and the romans kill him.
also, the jewish massiah has no aims about the world. as I know he going to rebuild the temple in jerusalem, and gave the jewish their holy countrey again. the fact we build a countrey without him, greate the antgonism in radical jewish communities.
and about the christian massiah. as I know they had no massiah, they had antichrist or something, that bring the apocalypse to earth.

Thanks to you! At least someone KNOWS what they are talking about.
But in general, G-d will make the new and third temple descend upon Jerusalem when Moshiach, the messiah, arives.

Its a common practice in a lot of communities, very noticeable in Orthodox Jews.
I'll back you up Slinao. Yeah, he's right anyway. We put a dash in usually things that are written on paper as G-d. It doesn't really matter on the internet because it won't literally be put in a trash can or thrown away. I am an Orthodox Jew and would be glad to answer any specific questions to my best ability

First of all, I'm not against Islam or Muslims in any way. I do hope that there would be a strong emerging force of moderate muslims coming from the middle east, because I'm getting rather pissed at terrorists and other bullcrap that is plaguing the peoples minds nowadays. But based on my experience living in South East Asia region for my whole life *And Australia once in a while*, they are in no way, think the way you guys do.

Source? I certainly don't feel very fundamentalist. I don't know a lot of fundamentalists either, and I know a lot of people. Hell, Muslims have been drifting from fundamentalism since the early 1960s, except Bin Laden and his party.

So.. proof?? Source? Show me.. Prove to me that the 1 billion Muslims living in Africa and Asia are all fundamentalists, each and every fucking one of them.

Like I said, maybe not in Europe (Or US, or any other more liberal first world nations).

And there is a difference between fundamentalist and extremist mind you. Unless we're talking on different meanings here.

However I live in Malaysia currently, and I have lived in Indonesia as well. Plus, knowing alot of arab students who travel to Malaysia to study (It's cheap here and It's muslim, so the *not-so rich ones* flock here). To perhaps nearly all, their fundamentalist. If you ask them about Gay rights, they believe that they should be jailed (Some don't even believe that men can go do it with another men). There's signboards telling women to cover their heads, and in some states, if you don't (no matter what race you are), they'll put you in prison. If you hold hands with a person of a different sex and your unmarried, you can also go to prison.

The lists goes on. IMO, you need to travel the world a little more to third and second world muslim nations. Which is actually quite interesting the things they do here.


Muslims have been drifting from fundamentalism since the early 1960s, except Bin Laden and his party.

Well I guess your right, However I do see lots of his photo's everywhere. And he is hero-worshipped rather alot though. I guess Muslim is drifting from fundamentalism.



Personally, and this is not meant to be offensive, I don't think you'd know the difference between a "fundamentalist" and a "liberal" Muslim if you saw them side by side in the same room.

It's quite rather obvious if you lived with them for years. I cannot differenciate them unless you talk to them and see their views. (except some of those very xenophobic ones who look at people of other religions differently). I bet you can't either :D

And Liberal is subjective anyway. But most of them are fundementalist by any standards because to these countries, they do not live side by side with people of other religions. They commune among themselves. They are what you might call Xenophobic of others. They do not tolerate others beliefs.

It looks like most people either don't care or they think Slinao has missed the boat with his hypothesis, according to his poll results.

it can also be said that most people don't know or think I'm right. The only major shift in the numbers is when it comes to the number of muslims like the theory and those that oppose it. The other numbers aren't that much different. Its something like 30% vs 40%, neither one getting a major side of things, because of 26% don't care or don't know.

Though I must say I'm glad to see that Muslims are willing to talk about their faith, it seems others just kinda say a bit, but don't touch too much about how they feel

Get your facts straight!

First of all, Jesus was Jewish.
Second, Romans killed Jesus


Yes, Jesus was Jewish, and I think anyone that would say otherwise doesn't know how to read or understand.

The romans provided the resources for the execution, but did not rule or judge on it. Its much like the fedral and state system found in the USA. The state courts can rule something, but that doesn't mean the Feds did it. Though its also different because the Roman way of governing was to set up their leaders and had them set up the groundwork of rules, and the rules for the roman citizens. But the locals still had policy over the natives. Much like the Britons had rule of thier lands, but still had to pay taxes to Rome.

They did this to keep rebellions down. The British did it too, a good example was shown in the movie Braveheart. Though the movie did mess up the historical arrangement of things, having William Wallace fight in battles that happened after he was historically dead and such, but they showed the way the English ruled Scotland, but still left the Scots thinking they had the power.

Though it wasn't the Jewish people that killed Jesus either. The mob did, I use this word because of the concept of Mob Mentality. A mob will do things a single person won't do. The richer Jewish people, the ones that had set up a rebellion and were not the legitimet jewish rulers anway, had gotten insulted when Jesus spoke against them, saying they had perverted the Torah, and hid behind legalism. They were the ones that had Jesus killed, but they were not nor have they ever been, a good example of the jews during that time. Much like the corrupt aristocrats and kings through out europe were not examples of the nations they were from.

I may not have all the points down straight about the Jewish Messiah, because I've been neglecting my readings. Though I do feel that the Christian Faith and the Orthodox Jewish Faith walk almost hand in hand. I visit a synagogue at times, and have tried to get a hold of many of the books, though I'm still missing a copy of the Artscroll Sidur, but I do have the NCSY bencher. If any Orthadox Jews know of some online links, it would be very helpful.

I've been interested in learning about the Jewish faith, because my mother's mother's father was from a very strict russian jew family. Though because its not my mother's mother's mother's, I'm not automatically jewish, or so it was explained to me.