NationStates Jolt Archive

Howdy y'all! I'm a typical fundamentalist christian. I don't like black people, gays, women, or smart people. I am also in favor of war, even though jesus was a pacifist. I think that evolution is wrong, and I like telling women what to do with their own bodies.

Hmm....well, i AM a fundamentalist Christian.....Over 60% of my friends are black, i have gay freinds who i don't agree with on their choice of lifestyle, but i don't think i should decide for them. About 50% of my friends are women...and i love my fiance and listen to everything she says because someday we will be married and we have to make decisions together...that is what the Bible says....
I got a 35 on my act in the 9th grade and have a subjective IQ of 197......I am in favor of defending my country or family from any outside threat, and jesus wasn't a pacifist.....He just beckoned us not to judge others or else we will be judged....He (God) condoned war throughout the Old testament when it was needed.....I think life from nothing is ludicrous but adaptation and some basic tenants of evolution are perfectly believeable.....I never have told a woman what do do with her body in my life and i never intend to, but i still don't believe that a baby is a breach of her "right to privacy."

Yes, you have truly shown your humility.

Tell me, has heaven began to admit people based on their ACT score?

Hmm....well, i AM a fundamentalist Christian....

Good to know, so that I can dismiss you at once, like all other fundamentalists.

Good to know, so that I can dismiss you at once, like all other fundamentalists.

Yes, I was also under the impression that being the smartest person alive would tend to undermine one's fundamentalism.

im a pinko liberal commie terrorist


and i have black friends, homosexual friends, and many other friends

Youre not really much of a fundamentalist Christian at all.

Yes, I was also under the impression that being the smartest person alive would tend to undermine one's fundamentalism.

Yeah, I guess a high IQ doesn't stop anyone from making poor decisions and saying stupid things.

just trying to prove a point that the post about the I AM A FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN....was stupid.....

just trying to prove a point that the post about the I AM A FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN....was stupid.....

Oh, kettle, I do believe the pot is calling.

It was supposed to be stupid, I think.

It got locked, at any rate. There's really no need for this thread.

Unfree People
Forum Moderator

Wow thats some IQ!

just trying to prove a point that the post about the I AM A FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN....was stupid.....

That point didn't need to be proven.

What you have proven is that you are not a fundamentalist Christian, Defensor Fedei is a fundamentalist Christian. What you are is a respectable Christian, and not just because you are the second coming of Newton.

I want an IQ like that...hell...Okay, everyone my IQ is 210

subjective IQ of 197

Well since we're being subjective ... my IQ is 316 ... farenheit.

That point didn't need to be proven.

What you have proven is that you are not a fundamentalist Christian, Defensor Fedei is a fundamentalist Christian. What you are is a respectable Christian, and not just because you are the second coming of Newton.

I'll take that as a compliment from you..lol.....i think Defensor Fidel's Heart is in the right plac, he jsut doesn't ahve the intellectual clout to back his beliefs effectively so he resorts to "you're stupid" to attempt to prove a point.....i learned that it doesn't work when i was 9.....

I want an IQ like that...hell...Okay, everyone my IQ is 210

The thing is..i didn't pull that number out of my butt.....

Defensor Fidel's Heart is in the right place

You have to have one before it can go in the right place.

The thing is..i didn't pull that number out of my butt.....

Well if you did, I hope you washed it before putting it here.

The thing is..i didn't pull that number out of my butt.....
No, but you most likely pulled it out of the air, where your imaginary friend lives

I'll take that as a compliment from you..lol.....i think Defensor Fidel's Heart is in the right plac, he jsut doesn't ahve the intellectual clout to back his beliefs effectively so he resorts to "you're stupid" to attempt to prove a point.....i learned that it doesn't work when i was 9.....

Either you have not read any of Defensor Fidei's posts, or I will be seeing you in Hell. He is hate mongoring bigot who has completely rejected the teachings of Christ. Whether he believes in God or not, his hate allows for no other master, in biblical terms, and I believe that Hell holds a special place for him.

Either you have not read any of Defensor Fidei's posts, or I will be seeing you in Hell. He is hate mongoring bigot who has completely rejected the teachings of Christ. Whether he believes in God or not, his hate allows for no other master, in biblical terms, and I believe that Hell holds a special place for him.

I'm relatively new here....so i haven't been seeing his posts much.....i have seen a couple...and basically he stopped trying to debate and reduced himself to a name-calling twit..

My IQ is 666. No, really, it is.

Being a fundamentalist Christian means you believe what the Bible says through and through. The only people that would dismiss you for believeing in the Bible as I read one nation saying at the beginning of this thread, are people who are either too arrogant and self conceited to understand there are other views other than their own, or they hate the Bible so much that they don't even want to know people who read it.

I am proud to be a fundamentalist in RL and in the game and to be at the head of a Fundamental Protestant Christian region. I share similar values with this gentleman. Fundamentalism is not being Crazy. Fundamentalism is believing in the gospel through and through. (And I know some slow witted person is going to say that believing the gospel through and through is crazy. Alright pal, it's predictable and old, and I beat you to it. Just thought I'd say that in advance to take care of it.)

My IQ is 666. No, really, it is.

Mine is 665 and 667.
Because if 666 is the Number of the Beast, just think of how powerful the numbers on either side of it must be!

:p

" (And I know some slow witted person is going to say that believing the gospel through and through is crazy. Alright pal, it's predictable and old, and I beat you to it. Just thought I'd say that in advance to take care of it.) "- Reichskamphen


Can I still say it?

Mine is 665 and 667.
Because if 666 is the Number of the Beast, just think of how powerful the numbers on either side of it must be!

:p

I am changing my IQ to 777 because well...I am The Omnipotent All Knowing Me

I'm relatively new here....so i haven't been seeing his posts much.....i have seen a couple...and basically he stopped trying to debate and reduced himself to a name-calling twit..

He was never much above that.

Being a fundamentalist Christian means you believe what the Bible says through and through. The only people that would dismiss you for believeing in the Bible as I read one nation saying at the beginning of this thread, are people who are either too arrogant and self conceited to understand there are other views other than their own, or they hate the Bible so much that they don't even want to know people who read it.

I am proud to be a fundamentalist in RL and in the game and to be at the head of a Fundamental Protestant Christian region. I share similar values with this gentleman. Fundamentalism is not being Crazy. Fundamentalism is believing in the gospel through and through. (And I know some slow witted person is going to say that believing the gospel through and through is crazy. Alright pal, it's predictable and old, and I beat you to it. Just thought I'd say that in advance to take care of it.)

The firm and steadfast belief in the literal translation of the Bible would require such a lack of cynicism, as to suggest a lack of intelligence or analytical skills. Now, be it that you read the Bible and analyzed it and formed your own meaning to it, that would show intelligence. But that would also cancel your membership amongst the "Fundamentalists."

EDIT: And my IQ will remain a paltry but feasible number inbetween 100 and 150.

I am changing my IQ to 777 because well...I am The Omnipotent All Knowing Me

I'm going to court for an IQ change!

To...
Err...
Aleph-null?
I guess?

That's a nice big number.
:)

May I ask the fundamentalist a question that they will answer?

(And I know some slow witted person is going to say that believing the gospel through and through is crazy. Alright pal, it's predictable and old, and I beat you to it. Just thought I'd say that in advance to take care of it.)

Hey, at least you admit it's crazy.

/dismisses you as well.

have a subjective IQ of 197

... thats quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen...


Ten bucks says he will back it up with the report from one of those 10 question ez-internet iq's that you can do again and again.

(And I know some slow witted person is going to say that believing the gospel through and through is crazy. Alright pal, it's predictable and old, and I beat you to it. Just thought I'd say that in advance to take care of it.)

And hypocritically coming to pre-judged racist, sexist and bigoted opinions of people as many a fundamentalist Christian tends to do is really old and predictable, too.

So now that ive beaten you to that, you wont have to spout any of that, will you?

Alright, pal.

May I ask the fundamentalist a question that they will answer?

Does that count as the question? :D

I admitted nothing was crazy. My IQ is around 161. I am not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. It has been my willingness to be open to other ideas and to explore other religions and options that has led me to this path, not a closedminded belief since childhood. I was raised as a liberal Christian. I came to this through many switches to one odd thing or another. To say that I have lack of intelligence for believing the literal Bible is quite insulting.

Furthermore, you can dismiss me all you want and make fun of me to your heart's content if it makes you feel big and intellectually superior. But just know that I have put years of thought and philosophical study behind my beliefs...intense reading in all forms of faith. Have you?

Does that count as the question? :D
yes!

And hypocritically coming to pre-judged racist, sexist and bigoted opinions of people as many a fundamentalist Christian tends to do is really old and predictable, too.

So now that ive beaten you to that, you wont have to spout any of that, will you?

Alright, pal.

And making generalizations about fundamentalists and fundamentalism when you have seen nothing but a part of the whole is pretty predictable too.

You are just as guilty in judging people as you say we fundamentalists are. Infact, it says in my Bible NOT to judge people, lest I also be judged.

yes!

Oh! Good thing I'm not a fundie then. Of course, I did answer it with a question ... but hey ... it's late.

And making generalizations about fundamentalists and fundamentalism when you have seen nothing but a part of the whole is pretty predictable too.

You are just as guilty in judging people as you say we fundamentalists are. Infact, it says in my Bible NOT to judge people, lest I also be judged.

Yet you continue to judge..amazing

I admitted nothing was crazy. My IQ is around 161. I am not stupid by any stretch of the imagination.

You can name any number and claim any sort of intelligence you want to comfort yourself, it doesn't help the fact that you are a fundamentalist.

To say that I have lack of intelligence for believing the literal Bible is quite insulting.

Tough noogies. But at least you have the fundamentalist aversion to reality to help you cope.

Furthermore, you can dismiss me all you want and make fun of me to your heart's content if it makes you feel big and intellectually superior. But just know that I have put years of thought and philosophical study behind my beliefs...intense reading in all forms of faith.

I'm so sorry you wasted so much of your time on nonsense.

Have you?

I prefer these forums to piss away time. At least I might learn something of value here.

Name one place where I have judged in such a manner.

I see plenty of pagans off slicing peoples throats and committing crimes, yet I know that doesn't stand for the whole of that belief.

I see plenty of Muslims blowing themselves up to kill Jews and Americans, I know that doesn't stand for the whole of that belief.

Yet, you know NOTHING of me...and relatively NOTHING of what I believe and prejudge me?

Hypocritical much?

Okay fundie people,

God is said to be a perfect being. If a perfect being existed , the perfect beings existence would be beyond dispute and not subject to debate. But many people dispute God's existence so either God isn't perfect and therefore NOT God or simply a perfect being such as God does not exist...

wasn't that cool?

Alright, honestly, you all are just going to keep belittling my beliefs and convictions while I try to respect yours. I find it unfair, heck with this. You all can have your own little self righteous party and go your own way.

I admitted nothing was crazy. My IQ is around 161. I am not stupid by any stretch of the imagination. It has been my willingness to be open to other ideas and to explore other religions and options that has led me to this path, not a closedminded belief since childhood. I was raised as a liberal Christian. I came to this through many switches to one odd thing or another. To say that I have lack of intelligence for believing the literal Bible is quite insulting.

Furthermore, you can dismiss me all you want and make fun of me to your heart's content if it makes you feel big and intellectually superior. But just know that I have put years of thought and philosophical study behind my beliefs...intense reading in all forms of faith. Have you?

Holy Moses, where did this crop of genius Christians come from? You would think that, since they were Christians, they would refrain from pompously slinging their superior intelligence marks around.

Since you two are of amazing intelligence, maybe you could explain to me how Adam and Eve managed to populate the Earth, how Noah managed to fit one of every species on the ark and then once again manage to repopulate the Earth, and why God would require the slaughter of his only son to defeat someone he has complete power over.

After that you could tell me whether we are judged when we die, or are judged on judgement day? Also, was Jesus correct when he said acts define righteousness, or was Paul correct when he said that the only determinant was belief in Christ?

Alright, honestly, you all are just going to keep belittling my beliefs and convictions while I try to respect yours. I find it unfair, heck with this. You all can have your own little self righteous party and go your own way.

Don't take it personally. I make fun of people who believe in Pippi Longstocking too.

Fundies never answer me...dammit!

Personally, I was hoping the first message of this thread was gonna be:

I really AM a fundamentalist Christian... and you can be one too for 3 easy payments of $29.95!

Personally, I was hoping the first message of this thread was gonna be:

I really AM a fundamentalist Christian... and you can be one too for 3 easy payments of $29.95!

You can't afford not to become one!

To their defense, you guys were pretty insulting, as most of your posts rose above redicule.

To their defense, you guys were pretty insulting, as most of your posts rose above redicule.

I asked a perfectly good q and they rudely ignored me....and its "ridicule"

To their defense, you guys were pretty insulting, as most of your posts rose above redicule.

Yeah, well, my otherwise bleeding heart won't be bleeding this time, since I have very little sympathy for people who believe I should be stoned or be done away with in some other biblical fashion.

I asked a perfectly good q and they rudely ignored me....and its "ridicule"

You did pose a very good point about a perfect God that got ignored, but that was rare.

Yes, you have truly shown your humility.

Tell me, has heaven began to admit people based on their ACT score?

I hope not. I skipped the ACT.

Yeah, well, my otherwise bleeding heart won't be bleeding this time, since I have very little sympathy for people who believe I should be stoned or be done away with in some other biblical fashion.

You seem to have a double standard in that.

But, as it is, since they study the teachings of Christ, I have a feeling that they would adamantly oppose your execution for disbelief. It is the individuals in power who consistently twisted the Bible to suit their own power lust that would have you stoned.

You seem to have a double standard in that.

I do?

But, as it is, since they study the teachings of Christ, I have a feeling that they would adamantly oppose your execution for disbelief. It is the individuals in power who consistently twisted the Bible to suit their own power lust that would have you stoned.

But they're fundamentalists; they believe everything in the Bible, even the parts that contradict themselves, so they would probably feel bad about executing me, but they'd do it never the less.

You did pose a very good point about a perfect God that got ignored, but that was rare.

What, and you say this after quoting:

Originally Posted by Nihilistic Beginners
I asked a perfectly good q and they rudely ignored me....and its "ridicule"

Are you suggesting what i think youre suggesting - THAT NIHILISTIC BEGINNERS IS IN FACT THIS GOD WE HAVE BEEN IGNORING ALL THIS TIME -????

Well, it does make some sort of sense. I mean, whod have expected the second coming to be posting at an internet messageboard? Thats pretty clever! You have to had it to God (our delightful NihiBegi, here), i mean, arent the Jews still looking at thier watches? Genius thinking!

Now, we need to give Lord NihiBegi an appropriate title:

ALL HAIL LORD GOD NIHIBEGI - GOD OF SPELLING -!!!!

If someone is truely following the teachings and example of Christ, then they are not racist, homophobic, warmongering, or vain. There is nothing to suggest that intelligence has ANY bearing on relgion. When you call an intelligent person who know their own IQ stupid, it's only natural, at least in a forum such as this, that they respond with said IQ as a means to prove their intelligence. And before you ask, no, I don't know my own IQ. My self esteem is quite healthy without having to go look it up in my high school permanent record or pay to take a new IQ test thank you very much.

I come from a fundamentalist Christian background, most of the people I know are fundamentalists, and NOT A SINGLE ONE fits the ridiculous stereotype given to our faith. Stereotype rarely hold any truth, and this one is no different. I have no idea what idiot thought up the racist portion of the statement that started this thread. I think the one about gays is a misunderstanding of the Christian stance on gay marriage. The war one...well, it's a stretch for me to come up with an explanation as to where that one came from, unless it's because so many Christians voted for Bush. Or maybe the Crusades from way back when 'common folk' weren't allowed to read the Bible and it was being interpretted for them by a church that was extremely self-serving at the time. Either way, it doesn't really hold true today.

The whole intelligence statement was, at best, a cheap shot with flawed ammo. Far too many intelligent people have come to Christ after trying in vain to disprove the Christian faith for it to hold any truth at all. Don't believe me? Go look up Simon Greenleaf for an example. I'm sure that anyone with an open mind can find others along those lines.

Now I'm sure some of the small minded people here who are convinced that I'm a hatemongering idiot will feel the need to debate my points with me, but I have a very low tolerance for those who would attack my faith for the sake of attacking my faith. It tends to make me more than a little angry, which, I think, is a perfectly natural and expected response to someone attacking something so core to a person as their religious faith. This is especially true when the reasons for attack that faith is as groundless as most of those I've seen here. True, some of you seem to have actually thought before typing, but most don't. They simply throw stereotypes and half understood facts around. For the sake of keeping my blood pressure within acceptable limits, I will likely not be looking at this thread again, so don't bother replying just to get at me. I'm sure that's handing ammo to someone, but I've found that spending much time debating such issues online only leaves me with a headache and a wonderment at how close-minded someone can be when calling someone else close-minded. Yes, both sides of these debates tend to have their share of close-minded individuals. You may even think me one of these. Fine. If it helps your self esteem to think I'm close minded, so be it.

You did pose a very good point about a perfect God that got ignored, but that was rare.

I know you are insulting me...by the way,Vittos hows truck running?

Okay fundie people,

God is said to be a perfect being. If a perfect being existed , the perfect beings existence would be beyond dispute and not subject to debate. But many people dispute God's existence so either God isn't perfect and therefore NOT God or simply a perfect being such as God does not exist...

wasn't that cool?

You just made a huge logic jump. Why would the perfect being's existence be beyond dispute?

I know you are insulting me...by the way,Vittos hows truck running?

I was actually being honest, that is a good point about God being perfect so his existence would not be in doubt, I have pondered that myself in various forms. The "that was rare" was in reference to the general tone of the posts by the various people in this thread, not your points exclusively.

And my truck is running like a fat kid in the mud, thank you very little.

You just made a huge logic jump. Why would the perfect being's existence be beyond dispute?

Try this one on:

A perfect beings actions will always be perfect, but bad people are born, and good people die.

Yet, you know NOTHING of me...and relatively NOTHING of what I believe and prejudge me?


Alright, then why dont you tell us your beliefs in a nice neat list so people can either

A: Categorize you in some hateful way
b: support you
c: hate you
d; just plainly shut the hell up

sound okey dokey?

You just made a huge logic jump. Why would the perfect being's existence be beyond dispute?

A perfect being would be perfect in all ways, so the truth of this beings existence would be perfect also and therefore beyond dispute

You just made a huge logic jump. Why would the perfect being's existence be beyond dispute?


Who cares? HE KNOWS HOW TO SPELL RIDICULE CORRECTLY - !!!!

Dont argue with the second coming. Trust me, doesnt get you ANYWHERE.

Just repent and start reading passages from the book of Lord NihiBegi - Hereby reffered to as www.dictionary.com

Through that, you will find enlightenment.

... thats quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen...


Ten bucks says he will back it up with the report from one of those 10 question ez-internet iq's that you can do again and again.

No actually i took it one time....about 1 year ago through the board of education.....not some stupid standerdized thest thing....an analytical test....standardized tests such as the SAT have no ebaring whatsoever IMO...they merely test how much information you can spit back out at somoen...ACT is more analytical....

Try this one on:

A perfect beings actions will always be perfect, but bad people are born, and good people die.

But if the perfect being allows other beings free will to choose imperfection than there could be imperfection. These beings could then be imperfect without affecting the perfection of the perfect being.

A perfect being would be perfect in all ways, so the truth of this beings existence would be perfect also and therefore beyond dispute

The truth of his being would be perfect but imperfect beings might not know it because they do not have perfect knowledge and reason and therefore dispute among imperfect beings.

But if the perfect being allows other beings free will to choose imperfection than there could be imperfection. These beings could then be imperfect without affecting the perfection of the perfect being.

You just stumbled on to another huge logical problem with the existence of a perfect, sensient (NB, is that the correct spelling?) being. Free will could not exist under such a God. If a creation of the being chose imperfection, he would not be a perfect creation.

Free will doesn't exist anyway, but under your definition of God it is impossible.

The truth of his being would be perfect but imperfect beings might not know it because they do not have perfect knowledge and reason and therefore dispute among imperfect beings.

A perfect being could not create imperfect beings.

The truth of his being would be perfect but imperfect beings might not know it because they do not have perfect knowledge and reason and therefore dispute among imperfect beings.

Then the truth of this being existence isn't perfect enough if the imperfect cannot recognize it has truthful and conforming with reality, like I said the truth of this beings existence would be so perfect it would not be disputable, it would be apparent to all... even the creeps

You just stumbled on to another huge logical problem with the existence of a perfect, sensient (NB, is that the correct spelling?) being. Free will could not exist under such a God. If a creation of the being chose imperfection, he would not be a perfect creation.

Free will doesn't exist anyway, but under your definition of God it is impossible.

Why wouldn't free will exist...that is a logic jump in and of itself....The bible never says that we are perfect creations, but only that we are what God made is to be....he gave us free wills becasue a God of love would not wish the popele that loved and worshiped Him to be mindless automotons....That would be no worship to Him...it would be like you programming a robot to bow....would that (other than the fact that you programmed a robot)be pleasing to you.....God wants us to go to heaven and He wants us to love Him, but He won't make us love Him.....if you make someone love you, then it isn't love....I think everyone would agree with that last sentance....

... even the creeps

Like me, and I haven't gotten this whole God thing yet.

Like me, and I haven't gotten this whole God thing yet.
somehow I get the feeling , no one is going to answer that point

Why wouldn't free will exist...that is a logic jump in and of itself....The bible never says that we are perfect creations, but only that we are what God made is to be....he gave us free wills becasue a God of love would not wish the popele that loved and worshiped Him to be mindless automotons....That would be no worship to Him...it would be like you programming a robot to bow....would that (other than the fact that you programmed a robot)be pleasing to you.....God wants us to go to heaven and He wants us to love Him, but He won't make us love Him.....if you make someone love you, then it isn't love....I think everyone would agree with that last sentance....

First off, if we aren't perfect creations then God isn't perfect. For God to be perfect we must do exactly what we were created to do. If we do exactly as we are created to do then we have no free will.

I would find it pleasing if I could force everyone to bow to me.

somehow I get the feeling , no one is going to answer that point

Thats because we don't like you NihiBegi. You have the gall to come in here and correct my rediculously perfect spelling and expect respect? Pffffff.

Pfft, some people are far to judgemental of other religions. Personally I believe in God, but I have my doubts about religion, that dosn't give me the right to insult someone else' religion at all. As long as your religion promots peace and love, I'm all for it, do whatever the hell you want, as long as it is in the name of love.

hehe I sound like a hippie. Peace out. :)

Thats because we don't like you NihiBegi. You have the gall to come in here and correct my rediculously perfect spelling and expect respect? Pffffff.

Well yes...I am a perfect being ya'know

First off, if we aren't perfect creations then God isn't perfect. For God to be perfect we must do exactly what we were created to do. If we do exactly as we are created to do then we have no free will.

I would find it pleasing if I could force everyone to bow to me.

I think we have a destiny, but we can choose it ourselves.....God know what we will do...who we will meet....what we will choose to do with our lives....i guess you technically could say we have no free will.....if you wanted to go there....

A perfect being could not create imperfect beings
Why not?

Besides the perfect being created the beings perfect (in terms of lack of sin), they chose imperfection.
You just stumbled on to another huge logical problem with the existence of a perfect, sensient (NB, is that the correct spelling?) being. Free will could not exist under such a God. If a creation of the being chose imperfection, he would not be a perfect creation.

Free will doesn't exist anyway, but under your definition of God it is impossible.
Why could free will not exist under a perfect God? Why does something perfect not make something not perfect?

Humans have the capabilities to make pictures that perfectly capture a scene, yet they still chose, and often prefer, paintings that are imperfect because we enjoy them. Could a perfect being not do the same. Create a being with potentials of imperfection because he prefers that to another perfect being.

Then the truth of this being existence isn't perfect enough if the imperfect cannot recognize it has truthful and conforming with reality, like I said the truth of this beings existence would be so perfect it would not be disputable, it would be apparent to all... even the creeps. The truth is perfect, but our understanding of the perfect truth is not. If the perfect being does not wish to force perfect knowledge on his creations, than they might not know the perfect truth.

Why can a perfect being not choose to create imperfection? Why can't a perfect being choose not to force the truth on everybody?

First off, if we aren't perfect creations then God isn't perfect. For God to be perfect we must do exactly what we were created to do. If we do exactly as we are created to do then we have no free will.

I would find it pleasing if I could force everyone to bow to me.

What if what we were created to do was make our own choices? What if the sole reason for our creation is to make choices. Then we were created to do exactly what God wanted us to do.

You might find it pleasing for everybody to bow to you, but if everybody always bowed to you and you knew they never had a choice wouldn't it get boring. Wouldn't someone bowing to you because they choose to be more satisfying than someone forced to bow to you?

Why not?

Besides the perfect being created the beings perfect (in terms of lack of sin), they chose imperfection.

Why could free will not exist under a perfect God? Why does something perfect not make something not perfect?

Humans have the capabilities to make pictures that perfectly capture a scene, yet they still chose, and often prefer, paintings that are imperfect because we enjoy them. Could a perfect being not do the same. Create a being with potentials of imperfection because he prefers that to another perfect being.

The truth is perfect, but our understanding of the perfect truth is not. If the perfect being does not wish to force perfect knowledge on his creations, than they might not know the perfect truth.

Why can a perfect being not choose to create imperfection? Why can't a perfect being choose not to force the truth on everybody?

look... if its perfect truth it is apparent...everyone would be able to see it...it wouldn't be forcing people into anything, the evidence would be clear, it would conform with reality

Why not?

Besides the perfect being created the beings perfect (in terms of lack of sin), they chose imperfection.

Why could free will not exist under a perfect God? Why does something perfect not make something not perfect?

Humans have the capabilities to make pictures that perfectly capture a scene, yet they still chose, and often prefer, paintings that are imperfect because we enjoy them. Could a perfect being not do the same. Create a being with potentials of imperfection because he prefers that to another perfect being.

The truth is perfect, but our understanding of the perfect truth is not. If the perfect being does not wish to force perfect knowledge on his creations, than they might not know the perfect truth.

Why can a perfect being not choose to create imperfection? Why can't a perfect being choose not to force the truth on everybody?

The entire nature of a perfect being would be that none of it's actions would lead to an imperfect result. It could make no mistakes. The fact that the very first people it created sinned is pretty damning evidence that God could not be perfect.

The entire nature of a perfect being would be that none of it's actions would lead to an imperfect result. It could make no mistakes. The fact that the very first people it created sinned is pretty damning evidence that God could not be perfect.

God created the beings to chose, not to be perfect. So humanity's perfect in it's abilities of choice, for which humanity was intended. There was no mistake as humanity was created to choose not to be perfect.

Hmm you are all talking about a 'perfect being" what makes God a being, hes like...there, you are imagining God as a human I assume, when God is anything but a human, and about the "A perfect being couldn't create an imperfect being" I have no idea where you got that, maybe in God's perfect-ness he created imperfections. You can hardly conieve the very idea of God.

look... if its perfect truth it is apparent...everyone would be able to see it...it wouldn't be forcing people into anything, the evidence would be clear, it would conform with reality
Why does perfect truth have to be apparent? It could be argued in the same way that perfect truth is so perfect that imperfect beings can not possibly comprehend it. A perfect truth doesn't have to be apparent to everybody, especially imperfect benigs lacking in knowledge, wisdom, and reasoning.

What if what we were created to do was make our own choices? What if the sole reason for our creation is to make choices. Then we were created to do exactly what God wanted us to do.

You might find it pleasing for everybody to bow to you, but if everybody always bowed to you and you knew they never had a choice wouldn't it get boring. Wouldn't someone bowing to you because they choose to be more satisfying than someone forced to bow to you?

If we were put on this Earth to make our own choices that would make the existence of an omniscient God impossible. That would make him imperfect as a result of limitations.

I originally said that as a joke, but now I am going to stand by it. Who would seriously bow to another person without being forced? The glory of being bowed to is in the power to enforce it.

Hmm you are all talking about a 'perfect being" what makes God a being, hes like...there, you are imagining God as a human I assume, when God is anything but a human, and about the "A perfect being couldn't create an imperfect being" I have no idea where you got that, maybe in God's perfect-ness he created imperfections. You can hardly conieve the very idea of God.

The imperfections would have to be intended and in that case would not be imperfections at all.

Why does perfect truth have to be apparent? It could be argued in the same way that perfect truth is so perfect that imperfect beings can not possibly comprehend it. A perfect truth doesn't have to be apparent to everybody, especially imperfect benigs lacking in knowledge, wisdom, and reasoning.

A perfect truth could be immediately verified beyond a shadow of doubt by anyone because by nature of being perfect truth it would be self-evident like the nose on the end of your face, if a perfect truth is lacking in any qualities of perfection such as being incomprehensible to any it would not be perfect, so if its incomprehensible to the imperfect then its not perfect

A perfect truth could be immediately verified beyond a shadow of doubt by anyone because by nature of being perfect truth it would be self-evident like the nose on the end of your face, if a perfect truth is lacking in any qualities of perfection such as being incomprehensible to any it would not be perfect, so if its incomprehensible to the imperfect then its not perfect

Lemme put forth a perfect truth....

The earth revovlves around the sun while rotating on it's axis.....

This is a perfect truth...there is no way to despute it....yet we lived without knowlegde of this perfect truth for centuries...

A perfect truth could be immediately verified beyond a shadow of doubt by anyone because by nature of being perfect truth it would be self-evident like the nose on the end of your face, if a perfect truth is lacking in any qualities of perfection such as being incomprehensible to any it would not be perfect, so if its incomprehensible to the imperfect then its not perfect

The earth is spherical is a perfect truth, but there are still those who believe it is flat. The earth is not the center of the universe is a perfect truth but many have believed it to be so nonetheless. Humans are imperfect and will readily ignore perfect truths theu contact. They lack knowledge and they lack teh reasoning abilities to fully grasp a perfect truth.

If we were put on this Earth to make our own choices that would make the existence of an omniscient God impossible. That would make him imperfect as a result of limitations.

I originally said that as a joke, but now I am going to stand by it. Who would seriously bow to another person without being forced? The glory of being bowed to is in the power to enforce it.

God could know our choices without them being forced on us. And they are still free choices even if he knows them beforehand, because he does not force them on us and because we make the choices not knowing what the choice is beforehand. If we knew our choices beforehand, then there would be no free will.

Which would be more satisfying; a wooden puppet bowing to you because you pull the strings forcing it to do so or another human bowing to you because they want to (or because they fear you)?

Lemme put forth a perfect truth....

The earth revovlves around the sun while rotating on it's axis.....

This is a perfect truth...there is no way to despute it....yet we lived without knowlegde of this perfect truth for centuries...
The evidence was always there and you have no way of knowing if everyone lived without that knowledge

The evidence was always there and you have no way of knowing if everyone lived without that knowledge

IMO the evidence of God is everywhere...and i KNOW that God exists......just like you KNOW that you are alive.....it is faith in action.....

Another perfect truth....

Plants photosynthesize......this is relatively recent knowlede as well...but it has alwayse been true...there are several....perhaps people will never acknowledge God's existance until it is too late.....

Opinions are not evidence..okay shoot...give me this undisputable perfect evidence of God's existence

You are sitting there..across from this screen.....your heart is beating.....

The unexplanable "strong atomic force" is keeping the atoms in your body from splitting.

Your brain can function.

We are here....

There is a world.

Something cannot come from nothing without a divine intervention.....Perhaps there was a "Big Bang" but where did the component molecules come from....do you know.....nobody in the scientific community has explained it yet...so i am pretty sure that rules out evolution as definitive....

I find it amazing that I can scroll through a message like this fundamental Christian one and in reply find mostly jokesters. Who do people think they are allowed to insult someone because of the life style they have chosen. I'll admit to believing in a God or some higher power. What I find presses my buttons is the ignorance of the people who reply. Why the heck would you continue bashing on someone's charecter just because you disagree with beliefs? Lol, only on the internet could you do such things without taking the good beating most of you deserve.
I'll try to understand but you know what I really don't have the time for that bull anyway. Oh and one more thing Christians didn't start this war anyway my friends and neither did the far right. As i recall after 9-11 a whole lot of people on the left and right voted on this.
Well take care and don't bother responding to my message, I won't be around, I have a deployment to finish and I'll never read what you have to say. Grow up children

No actually i took it one time....about 1 year ago through the board of education.....not some stupid standerdized thest thing....an analytical test....standardized tests such as the SAT have no ebaring whatsoever IMO...they merely test how much information you can spit back out at somoen...ACT is more analytical....


Unless you can show me a certificate that is authentic and approved by someone on the education board, i still say this is a load of bs.



plus, iq really has nothing to do with this. brilliant people are some of the biggest asses and make some very very bad desicions.

Unless you can show me a certificate that is authentic and approved by someone on the education board, i still say this is a load of bs.



plus, iq really has nothing to do with this. brilliant people are some of the biggest asses and make some very very bad desicions.

I added it because the OP on the closed thread says basically that fundamentalist christians hate smart people.....

Iq tests arent even that "Accurate" seeing as how measuring someone's intelligences would actually require you to moniter every action of their being since minute 1, including the womb.

... have a subjective IQ of 197.

If that's true, then you won't have any problem computing the percentage of people in the world who have IQs of 197 or greater. As an alternative, you could compute the required sample space and length of a test to predict accurately somebody's IQ to be within 50 of that. However, if you were smart enough to perform those calculations or even to realize that these questions are important, then you wouldn't bother to state your IQ. Hence, I conclude that your IQ is not even remotely 197 as a predictor of deductive abilities. Congratulations on being shot down by a mere ~140 (according to professionally administered tests), whatever that means.

The First EF Test for Internet IQ Reporting Reliability:
If someone claims to have an IQ in excess of 150 and doesn't know which scale that's measured on nor which percentile it falls on, it's BS.

I'll take that as a compliment from you..lol.....i think Defensor Fidel's Heart is in the right plac, he jsut doesn't ahve the intellectual clout to back his beliefs effectively so he resorts to "you're stupid" to attempt to prove a point.....i learned that it doesn't work when i was 9.....


it has a heart? *blink* I was under the impression that trolls functioned without them.

You are sitting there..across from this screen.....your heart is beating.....

The unexplanable "strong atomic force" is keeping the atoms in your body from splitting.

Your brain can function.

We are here....

There is a world.

Something cannot come from nothing without a divine intervention.....Perhaps there was a "Big Bang" but where did the component molecules come from....do you know.....nobody in the scientific community has explained it yet...so i am pretty sure that rules out evolution as definitive....

For your sake and mine I am hoping you are not calling that perfect undisputable evidence...that's opinion

Actually, I find myself in the same league with this guy. I'm raised in one of the bluest of the blue states, the Empire State. The vast 90% of my friends are liberals, atheists, amoralists, liberals, ect. To them, I'm a fundamentalist Christian because I believe that Jehova God is the one true God, that Jesus is the only path to salvation, that homosexuality is immoral, that' I'm dogmatically pro life, read the whole KJV 1611 Bible cover to cover, and go to church more than once a week, often two or three.

I'm often branded as a homophobe from what I say. Let's get something straight, homophobe would be having an irrational fear of homosexuals. To the contrary, one of my co-workers is gay, but he and I get along fine and we chat occasionally, I just don't agree with his lifestyle. If he isn't going to change his ways, there's nothing I can do to stop that and that's his choice.

As for the abortion debate, defining life as conciousness is a bit disturbing to me. We believe parameciums are alive, but they don't have a brain. Just because the child hasn't exited the womb doesn't mean it's anyone's right to go and terminate it. I also find it disturbing that there are reports that even in the earliest stages of development when the doctors implement to terminate the fetus approaches it, the fetus even tries to escape it. We go to great lengths trying to save animals, endangered species young or eggs but yet we have no problem ending our own unborn. Jesus said that it would be better to be dropped into the sea with a stone around your neck than to offend a child, how much more an unborn?

I'm told how can I blindly put my faith in teachings of Christ and the Bible. Something I can't see. Has anyone seen the big bang? Has anyone see evolution played out? Can anyone prove that God doesn't exist? Apparently, science has its limits. Putting your faith in those require just the same leap of faith I take. Some say they can't believe that an Almighty God would just create the universe with his spoken word, but I can't believe and explosion happened from nothing and created something.

As for reading the Bible cover to cover, come on, if people put even a fraction of the amount they spent on video games, they would have accomplished it too. It usually only takes me reading about 20 minutes every morning to read through it in the whole year.

I don't see how anyone can be a Christian and NOT be a fundamental Christian. I used to believe myself, but I didn't believe homosexuality was wrong, or any other "typical fundamental" Christian ideas. But where else do you base your beliefs? The Bible does not call for a marital partnership... Paul specifically said for women to submit to their husbands, no matter how much the husbands are supposed to love their wives, it's not a partnership but rather a dictatorship. Paul specifically says homosexuals aren't going to Heaven and not to be "yoked" with unbelievers, which is often interpreted as in don't marry people who don't think like you, but I don't know. I tried it. I tried basing it on the Gospels alone, but I still had problems with no reference to a female diety, and Jesus says that on Peter He will build His church, and Peter says that Paul's letters are inspired. And then Jesus condones the majority of Mosaic law, which in general is very much misogynistic. And then I don't know if I necessarily believe in the whole being born into sin, but more the whole clean slate theory. I'd totally be a Christian otherwise. :confused:

Has anyone seen the big bang?

Yes, its an obsevable phenomena

Has anyone see evolution played out?

Yes

Can anyone prove that God doesn't exist?

Yup, easily

Yes, its an obsevable phenomena



Yes



Yup, easily
The first two are arguable. The third is not. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by scientific methods, and I can prove that based on the rules of formal logic.

The first two are arguable. The third is not. The existence of God cannot be proven or disproven by scientific methods, and I can prove that based on the rules of formal logic.

Okay, I will give you that God might not or might exist...but a perfect being cannot exist I stand on that

Okay, I will give you that God might not or might exist...but a perfect being cannot exist I stand on that
You would have to be able to quantify perfection in order to argue that. That's something that I'm not prepared to do.

You would have to be able to quantify perfection in order to argue that. That's something that I'm not prepared to do.

I am talking absolutes here...did i quantify enough?

I am talking absolutes here...did i quantify enough?
No. I don't know what characteristics a perfect being would have. I would wager that I can't possibly know without being perfect.

No. I don't know what characteristics a perfect being would have. I would wager that I can't possibly know without being perfect.

Well people who cannot express what the characteristics of this most perfect are, shouldn't go around positing that this most perfect being exist until they can..

Well people who cannot express what the characteristics of this most perfect are, shouldn't go around positing that this most perfect being exist until they can..
Who said it exists? I said that I can't possibly tackle the question of whether or not it exists.

Who said it exists? I said that I can't possibly tackle the question of whether or not it exists.
well if you can't describe the charestistics of this most pefect being , its not very wise to say it might exist either...

well if you can't describe the charestistics of this most pefect being , its not very wise to say it might exist either...
Why not?

Why not?

How can you saying anything exist without knowing at least some of its characteristics...if it has no characteristics, then most likely it does not exist...you have to at least know some

Just thinking of something that was said way back on pages 4-5-6 or so about God and perfect beings...

Technically, if God created humans as perfect beings, wouldn't humans then be technically Gods too?

How can you saying anything exist without knowing at least some of its characteristics...if it has no characteristics, then most likely it does not exist...you have to at least know some
We don't really know any of the characteristics of the universe. It seems to exist.

Probability is not a very good predictor of isolated events. It might be possible for a perfect being to exist, but one who is not perfect will never know. Since we're imperfect, it is of no consequence whether or not such a being actually exists because we wouldn't know it.

We don't really know any of the characteristics of the universe. It seems to exist.
I want you to think about what you just said. Then look in front of you and tell me what you see.

I want you to think about what you just said. Then look in front of you and tell me what you see.
I see my computer monitor.

I see my computer monitor.

char·ac·ter·is·tic

ADJECTIVE:

Being a feature that helps to distinguish a person or thing; distinctive: heard my friend's characteristic laugh; the stripes that are characteristic of the zebra.

Can you make a distinction between yourself and the computer monitor?

char·ac·ter·is·tic

ADJECTIVE:

Being a feature that helps to distinguish a person or thing; distinctive: heard my friend's characteristic laugh; the stripes that are characteristic of the zebra.

Can you make a distinction between yourself and the computer monitor?
Yes. My body is not a computer monitor.

Yes. My body is not a computer monitor.

So it seems we can makes distinctions between the different features that make up the universe, seems like the universe has many different characteristics, some are apparent to us like the nose at the end of your face, some are not due to our limited sense organs but yet we can make distinctions between the different elements that make up the universe even.

So it seems we can makes distinctions between the different features that make up the universe, seems like the universe has many different characteristics, some are apparent to us like the nose at the end of your face, some are not due to our limited sense organs but yet we can make distinctions between the different elements that make up the universe even.
No, I can make distinctions between my perceptions of things that are contained in the universe. This tells me little about the universe itself. Scientists know nothing of the workings of subatomic particles or the geometry of space.

No, I can make distinctions between my perceptions of things that are contained in the universe. This tells me little about the universe itself. Scientists know nothing of the workings of subatomic particles or the geometry of space.

The things contained in the universe aren't anything separate from the universe, to say that would be like saying your nervous system is something separate from your body and cannot give you information about your body. Every piece of your body no matter how small gives us some information about your body.

The things contained in the universe aren't anything separate from the universe, to say that would be like saying your nervous system is something separate from your body and cannot give you information about your body. Every piece of your body no matter how small gives us some information about your body.
Mr. X tells you that there exists a box. He tells you some of the things inside it. From this information, not even given the credibility of Mr. X, you are to determine the characteristics of the box. How far do you get?

At any rate, I've been informed that it's Christmas. And since I don't care about that, it's also my mother's birthday. This will have to be continued later.

I'm a God-hating, Marxist Jew. I have an eight-figure yearly salary, I am responsible for all of society's problems, and my nose is huge. Plus I love eating Christian blood on passover.

Mr. X tells you that there exists a box. He tells you some of the things inside it. From this information, not even given the credibility of Mr. X, you are to determine the characteristics of the box. How far do you get?

At any rate, I've been informed that it's Christmas. And since I don't care about that, it's also my mother's birthday. This will have to be continued later.
Pretty far...I know that the imaginary box is an imaginary container

Pretty far...I know that the imaginary box is an imaginary container
Not really. You know that Mr. X claims that it's a container. Besides, we know that a perfect being is a being. That's obviously not what I was getting at.

At any rate, this is all tangential. I'm just saying that it might be theoretically possible for a perfect being to exist. It would be silly, though, to alter our actions to account for the possibility that a perfect being might exist because we don't know how a perfect being would want us to act. For example, the perfect being may want us to act as though it didn't exist.

These questions can never be resolved through logic, so it's best to leave logic out of the discussion.

At any rate, this is all tangential. I'm just saying that it might be theoretically possible for a perfect being to exist. It would be silly, though, to alter our actions to account for the possibility that a perfect being might exist because we don't know how a perfect being would want us to act. For example, the perfect being may want us to act as though it didn't exist.

These questions can never be resolved through logic, so it's best to leave logic out of the discussion.

If a perfect being wanted to decieve us and keep us in the dark well it would be a liar and not a perfect being

Hmm....well, i AM a fundamentalist Christian.....Over 60% of my friends are black, i have gay freinds who i don't agree with on their choice of lifestyle, but i don't think i should decide for them. About 50% of my friends are women...and i love my fiance and listen to everything she says because someday we will be married and we have to make decisions together...that is what the Bible says....
I got a 35 on my act in the 9th grade and have a subjective IQ of 197......I am in favor of defending my country or family from any outside threat, and jesus wasn't a pacifist.....He just beckoned us not to judge others or else we will be judged....He (God) condoned war throughout the Old testament when it was needed.....I think life from nothing is ludicrous but adaptation and some basic tenants of evolution are perfectly believeable.....I never have told a woman what do do with her body in my life and i never intend to, but i still don't believe that a baby is a breach of her "right to privacy."




Well given he said turn the other cheek when he was smacked and healed the soldiers ear who came to capture his for crucifixion after it was cut off by one of his disciples and told his disciples not to fight, I`d say thats a clear indication jesus was a pacifist.

Well given he said turn the other cheek when he was smacked and healed the soldiers ear who came to capture his for crucifixion after it was cut off by one of his disciples and told his disciples not to fight, I`d say thats a clear indication jesus was a pacifist.
To play devil's advocate what about when he used the whip at the temple and threw tables around because the traders and merchants were desecrating his father's temple?
Now a pacifist he was not, but a war monger he was not either. He was neutral in peace and war.
Both have their uses. Also he was against breaking the law so that might be why he healed the man's ear. To strike a officer is illegal in most countries.

If a perfect being wanted to decieve us and keep us in the dark well it would be a liar and not a perfect being
I didn't say that the being would claim that it didn't exist. I didn't say that the being would force us to believe that it didn't exist. I said that the perfect being might want us to act as though it didn't. That is neither deception nor lying.

Besides that, you're bringing bias into this. Who says that lying is imperfect? You? How do you know? You're not perfect. You can't quote any imperfect source to tell you that lying is imperfect. Therein lies the problem with classifying the perfect being. Only a perfect being could know what it is.

I didn't say that the being would claim that it didn't exist. I didn't say that the being would force us to believe that it didn't exist. I said that the perfect being might want us to act as though it didn't. That is neither deception nor lying.

Besides that, you're bringing bias into this. Who says that lying is imperfect? You? How do you know? You're not perfect. You can't quote any imperfect source to tell you that lying is imperfect. Therein lies the problem with classifying the perfect being. Only a perfect being could know what it is.

An inherent quality of a lie is the absence of truth, truth being a quality of perfection...lying would be an imperfect act

To play devil's advocate what about when he used the whip at the temple and threw tables around because the traders and merchants were desecrating his father's temple?
Now a pacifist he was not, but a war monger he was not either. He was neutral in peace and war.
Both have their uses. Also he was against breaking the law so that might be why he healed the man's ear. To strike a officer is illegal in most countries.



He never striked anyone in the temple though. He simply knocked tables over and tossed money on the ground. It was more that he was pissed.

An inherent quality of a lie is the absence of truth, truth being a quality of perfection...lying would be an imperfect act
Truthfulness is a quality of a perfect being? Who knew? I feel like I just said this.

Truthfulness is a quality of a perfect being? Who knew? I feel like I just said this.
You didn't say that lying might not be imperfect? I think you should go back and read what you yourself wrote previously or do you want me to quote you?

I asked a perfectly good q and they rudely ignored me....and its "ridicule"

and it's "it's"

and "question".

and it's "it's"

and "question".

Nah Kiddin'?

You didn't say that lying might not be imperfect? I think you should go back and read what you yourself wrote previously or do you want me to quote you?
I did say that lying might not be imperfect. I also said that you're not qualified to disagree. Whatever you or I believe about perfection is irrelevant. We don't know. We're not perfect.

I did say that lying might not be imperfect. I also said that you're not qualified to disagree. Whatever you or I believe about perfection is irrelevant. We don't know. We're not perfect.

But we can know what perfect is

But we can know what perfect is
We can believe we know what perfection is. However, we can't trust our beliefs. We are imperfect.

We can believe we know what perfection is. However, we can't trust our beliefs. We are imperfect.
We can concieve a perfect circle, the mathematics is relatively simple, belief has nothing to do with it

But we can know what perfect is
Prove what perfection is, and I'll believe you. However, you can not prove what it is without relying on your own assumptions about perfection.

I would characterize your arguments as being devoid of the severity of thought and process of true logic. For instance, you said that 'perfect' truths are inherently known, but that is not the case, as there are, most likely, an infinite number of perfect truths concerning this universe, yet we know so very little.

You, however, act as if you know all the truths concerning perfection, however you do not.

Moreover, it is humanly impossible to imagine a perfect being as our brains are too confined by imperfection.

We can concieve a perfect circle, the mathematics is relatively simple, belief has nothing to do with it
A circle is precisely defined by the axioms of mathematics. We can conceive a perfect circle based on those axioms. These axioms were developed by imperfect beings.

On which axioms would you base the definition of a perfect being?

Prove what perfection is, and I'll believe you. However, you can not prove what it is without relying on your own assumptions about perfection.

I would characterize your arguments as being devoid of the severity of thought and process of true logic. For instance, you said that 'perfect' truths are inherently known, but that is not the case, as there are, most likely, an infinite number of perfect truths concerning this universe, yet we know so very little.

You, however, act as if you know all the truths concerning perfection, however you do not.

Moreover, it is humanly impossible to imagine a perfect being as our brains are too confined by imperfection.

I never said that a perfect truth would be inherently know , I said it would be apparent....big huge gigantic difference

I should say that I believe the major error in your thought to be that for a perfect being to exist it must be perfect in every conceivable manner.

So, for instance, if I were going to take this supposition seriously, I would put forth that for a perfect being to exist, it must be a perfect circle as well, for if it is perfect in everything, it must also be a perfect circle, no? It must also be a perfect square and triangle. If I can prove that it is not a perfect circle, (or a perfect anything in any regard [note that these perfections are being defined by me, an imperfect being]) then I would be able to say that it is not perfect.

The obvious leaps in logic are ridiculous in nature, and that is why a great severity in proof is required for serious thought and argument.

I never said that a perfect truth would be inherently know , I said it would be apparent....big huge gigantic difference
Ah, but apparent to whom? You assumed it would be apparent to all humanity. However, perhaps the only being perfection would readily be apparent to is a perfect being.

are you a nihilist? if you are, or claim to be, you should most definitely "know" that perfection is among the most arbitrary human-made concepts.

I should say that I believe the major error in your thought to be that for a perfect being to exist it must be perfect in every conceivable manner.

So, for instance, if I were going to take this supposition seriously, I would put forth that for a perfect being to exist, it must be a perfect circle as well, for if it is perfect in everything, it must also be a perfect circle, no? It must also be a perfect square and triangle. If I can prove that it is not a perfect circle, (or a perfect anything in any regard [note that these perfections are being defined by me, an imperfect being]) then I would be able to say that it is not perfect.

The obvious leaps in logic are ridiculous in nature, and that is why a great severity in proof is required for serious thought and argument.


Ah, but apparent to whom? You assumed it would be apparent to all humanity. However, perhaps the only being perfection would readily be apparent to is a perfect being.

A perfect being would have to be perfect in its essential nature, most likely it would definately have to be everything (some monist do believe this). I am not the one who is defending argument that a perfect being exist or might not exist. I am argueing that a perfect personal and volitional being whom we call God could not exist.

A perfect being would have to be perfect in its essential nature, most likely it would definately have to be everything (some monist do believe this). I am not the one who is defending argument that a perfect being exist or might not exist. I am argueing that a perfect personal and volitional being whom we call God could not exist.
This all cracks down to what we define the arbitrary human concept of perfection. You are taking certain human characteristics and concepts and saying that it is not possible for a being to have all of those in perfection in our universe, and that a being must have those in order to be called perfect. This is arbitrary, and certainly not a proof for what others might define as perfect. So, Pythagosaurus proposed, why do you not come up with a set of axioms that define a perfect being? We could then argue them, and it could be that according to your axioms, it would be impossible for such a being to exist.

However.... just as an out there thought... since we can not conceive of what life without time is, there are certainly other concepts that exist beyond the borders of our reality that we can not conceive of nor define or limit by our logic. Therefore, it is impossible to comment outside of the borders of our reality. Additionally, this makes hairy the issue of beings that both exist outside and inside our universe, particularly if their abilities can redefine our universe.

this is totally asinine. anyway, only morons argue whether or not god exists based on his most insignificant characteristics. there is nothing inherent about the significant nature of god that would require him to be some arbitrary list of qualities defined as "perfect".

this is like someone saying, "god doesn't exist, because some christians believe god is a hermaphrodite, and we all know most hermaphrodites are raised as girls."

oh yeah. and the most ridiculous thing about the whole argument is the assumption that a being can't be perfect. well no fucking shit, if god conformed to all of the "rules" we humans follow, he wouldn't exactly matter at all would he? you know what else is impossible? creating the universe! i can't do it, not even arnold schwarzenegger can. therefore god doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

this is totally asinine. anyway, only morons argue whether or not god exists based on his most insignificant characteristics. there is nothing inherent about the significant nature of god that would require him to be some arbitrary list of qualities defined as "perfect".

this is like someone saying, "god doesn't exist, because some christians believe god is a hermaphrodite, and we all know most hermaphrodites are raised as girls."

oh yeah. and the most ridiculous thing about the whole argument is the assumption that a being can't be perfect. well no fucking shit, if god conformed to all of the "rules" we humans follow, he wouldn't exactly matter at all would he? you know what else is impossible? creating the universe! i can't do it, not even arnold schwarzenegger can. therefore god doesn't exist. :rolleyes:

Perfection and perfect being according to theist is a defining characteristic of God, it is in no way insignificant

according to theism? and where is it written that anyone who believes in god must believe in a perfect being? the significance of god is beyond the specific religions that attach laws to his existence. if there's some glowing thing in heaven that controls the cosmos and made the earth in 6 days and gave his son to die for us but one day fucked up when he allowed you to be born, does that mean he's not really god and therefore we should ignore him, because that imaginary man-made document proclaiming god to be perfect transcends this being that made us?

according to theism? and where is it written that anyone who believes in god must believe in a perfect being? the significance of god is beyond the specific religions that attach laws to his existence. if there's some glowing thing in heaven that controls the cosmos and made the earth in 6 days and gave his son to die for us but one day fucked up when he allowed you to be born, does that mean he's not really god and therefore we should ignore him, because that imaginary man-made document proclaiming god to be perfect transcends this being that made us?
so basically what you are saying is that Anselm, Pascal, Leibniz, Gödel and the whole Ontological Arguement for the Existence of God is full of shit...I couldn't agree with you more.

i think aquinas has a syllogism in there too...

i think aquinas has a syllogism in there too...

And Aquinas was full of shit too