NationStates Jolt Archive

Was the birth of Jesus immaculate?

There are speculations that Mary may have been raped by a Roman soldier named Panthera and that he was the father of Jesus. And of course, Joseph is also a potential father since there are references that Jesus had brothers. Also, the word almah as translated by the Hebrew Bible could mean either "virgin" or "young girl of marriable age."

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mothers and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." (Matthew 12:46)

"Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon?" (Mark 6:3)

"For even his own brothers did not believe in him." (John 7.5)

"They all joined together constantly in prayer along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers." (Acts 1:14)

What do you think? You don't have to be a christian to discuss this, Im an agnostic, and Im curious of what other people think.

How the hell would *I* know? I wasn't there and it wasn't ME! Heh!

Seriously, if the historians can't come up with the answer to this one, how could the rest of us be expected to?

I just want to hear out people's opinions...

The true father of Jesus is God. I know that for sure. Jesus was born to parents who God picked as appropiate parents for Jesus as he walked the face of the Earth and died for our sins.

Well you see the virgin mary was the biggest slut around. She got knocked up and 8 or so months in the father upped and left. Kind of like the girls who get knocked up when they are 19 today.

This is a JEW saying this.
I really don't know what
the fuck im talking about.

If the same scenero as jesus were to happen in 2004 people would think it was a lie or hoax, but since it happened 2000 years ago somehow its more belivable. 99% of people who belive in Jesus do because they were told by their parents too, and they will tell their children to. And for those who may read this and say that they have their own belifs then I ask you.....what if you had grow up with some other religion, you would belive in it as much as the one you belive in now correct?

According to the book I'm reading, Jesus' father was King Antipar, Herod's son.

From a reformed perspective; Jesus' father was God the Father.

As for Jesus having other brothers and such, it makes sense. Mary and Joseph were married you know. The Reformed churches do not hold to the belief of Mary's perpetual virginity.

if jesus was the son of god isnt wasnt he concieved outta marriage? isnt that a sin?

Personally, I don't beleive jesus existed, its entirely plausible to me that the "disciples" fabricated his existence.

If he did exist, then I'm sure it was his natural human father - He may have been divinely inspired, but he was NOT divine.

As for the whole immaculate conception thing... Come on people... "God did it?"
You imagine a woman saying that to her fiancé today before they've had sex...

if jesus was the son of god isnt wasnt he concieved outta marriage? isnt that a sin?

:headbang:

Jesus was created by God! He wasn't "conceived." Mary was just chosen as his mother.

Another thing to consider is that god can supposedly take different forms (burning bush?), maybe he took the form of another person and knocked up Mary?

I dunno. Let's ask the Bible.

Acts 2:30
"Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."

2 Tim.2:8
"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David ....

"Rev.22:16
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David."


Obviously it's Joseph. Wait...waaaait...

Lk.1:31-35
"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring for a son, and shalt call his name Jesus .... Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be seeing I know not a man. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee."

Mt.1:18
"When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."




...Well...uh...shit.

Don't people believe in miracles anymore? Does life just randomly happen in the only part of a woman's body capable of carrying it? If God can bring life into being through sex, (since he has the blueprints for life) he can bring it into being without sex!

'father' is such a loosely defined word, and with translation what it is details about that sort of thing from the bible are hit or miss, there's really no way to tell, I'm christian and don't really care one way or another, he was born, he died, he was raised from death and then to heaven, thats all I need to know

...Well...uh...shit.
Damn, Clemson, I believe they call that 0wn3d here.

Who was the father of Jesus?
One of the three wisemen. Or perhaps the donkey.

Damn, Clemson, I believe they call that 0wn3d here.

I ain't gonna argue whether or not Jesus is real. I beleive he is, and that's all that matters.

I ain't gonna argue whether or not Jesus is real. I beleive he is, and that's all that matters.
I respect that you have a belief system, but do check your facts before you post. If you post things that the scripture obviously proves false, you help further the assumptions of nonbelievers that most Christians don't know shit about their own faith, they just buy whatever they've been told.

I can't remember the name, but one of the posters mentioned a book saying that Jesus' father was Herod's son. I'm pretty sure that book is King Jesus by Robert Graves- I own a copy at home. I tried re-reading it recently, and it was pretty tough. While I, Claudius was great, Graves spends too much time talking about his White Goddess theory (you know, the whole maternal goddess thing). Sorry to get off topic. I'd have to say Joseph was Jesus' father, although he might have been somewhat too old (hint hint). Maybe it was Pontius Pilate you know, "Jesus, I am your father"

Whether or not Jesus was divine or not, there is enough historical evidence to suggest he really did live. That being said, He was raised by Mary and Joseph, although I have no idea about who his true genetic father would be, whether there was no father, the Holy Spirit, Joseph, a soldier, the son of a King....frankly I don't really care.

As for wether or not Jesus existed is not a question, it's known fact that he existed. As for the "brothers" that are referred to in the bible, some people believe that they are Joseph's children from a previous marriage, or they were cousins of his. I personally belive that Jesus was the Messiah, and conceived of a virgin birth. Those are my beliefs, you can agree with me or disagree, but that's just my opinion.

Ok....I really don't understand where people get the idea that they know more about what really happened 2000 years later than the eyewitnesses did...

As for wether or not Jesus existed is not a question, it's known fact that he existed. As for the "brothers" that are referred to in the bible, some people believe that they are Joseph's children from a previous marriage, or they were cousins of his. I personally belive that Jesus was the Messiah, and conceived of a virgin birth. Those are my beliefs, you can agree with me or disagree, but that's just my opinion.
Jesus was virgin-born, not his brothers. Although Mary was a virgin at Jesus' birth, she didn't stay that way. She was married to Joseph and had his children.

I dunno. Let's ask the Bible.

Acts 2:30
"Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."

2 Tim.2:8
"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David ....

"Rev.22:16
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David."


Obviously it's Joseph. Wait...waaaait...

Lk.1:31-35
"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring for a son, and shalt call his name Jesus .... Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be seeing I know not a man. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee."

Mt.1:18
"When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."




...Well...uh...shit.
Easy solution to your little paradox there: Mary was a descendant of the line of David (at least I think that's how it was).

Ok....I really don't understand where people get the idea that they know more about what really happened 2000 years later than the eyewitnesses did...
I seem to remember from a Discovery show that the ones who wrote the Bible weren't eyewitnesses. There were two groups. One who actually walked with Jesus and who described him as a normal guy who had a vision. And the second one who weren't eyewitnesses who claimed he was the son of God and all. The latter won in the end.

Jesus was virgin-born, not his brothers. Although Mary was a virgin at Jesus' birth, she didn't stay that way. She was married to Joseph and had his children.
I know, I never said that Jesus' brothers were virgin born. I only said that Jesus was virgin born. I was just saying that they could have been either his cousins, Joseph's children from a previous marriage, or they also could have been Mary and Joseph's children after the birth of Christ.

Easy solution to your little paradox there: Mary was a descendant of the line of David (at least I think that's how it was).
Actually I think Joseph was.

I seem to remember from a Discovery show that the ones who wrote the Bible weren't eyewitnesses. There were two groups. One who actually walked with Jesus and who described him as a normal guy who had a vision. And the second one who weren't eyewitnesses who claimed he was the son of God and all. The latter won in the end.
I believe the earliest Gospel written wasn't written until about 80 A.D., which would be nearly 50 years after Jesus's death.

Jesus was begotten, not made. Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, taking Mary's DNA and Joseph's DNA to form the fetal Jesus. Since Joseph's DNA was used in this way, Jesus is related to David.

At least that is what the voices inside of my head tell me, and in this case, I think they are correct. :rolleyes:

I, for one, am glad that Mary and Joseph were not pro-Choice, and neither were my parents or the parents of anyone posting here. If they were pro-Choice none of us would be here and we would have been aborted.

Jesus exists for real, I almost died a few times, and I met him. There are Roman records on him, as well as Jewish ones as well. Historic facts in the Bible, also show that the parts of the Bible reporting those facts are true, and quite possibly so too are the rest of the Bible.

Now the Gnostic Bible may be another version. :p

I believe that Isa(Jesus) was divinely created inside Maryam(Mary) by Allah's spirit. Jesus was conceived of a virgin and therefore did not have a father biologicaly. Not even Allah, since Allah is the only true God and can not beget others.

I do not believe, rather I theorize that Jesus was a copy of Mithra.

OK, first of all I am Christian, so I know what I'm talking about. In church, the pastor addresses the congregation as "brothers and sisters", equals. And I know that no woman can squeeze a church full of people out of a small hole between her legs. It's not literal! They were probably Jesus's diciples. Because He kind of "hung out" with them, people called them His brothers. Not that they thought that they were. The thing about the bible is that 50% of it is not entirely true. It is, but it isn't. It's all spiritual truth, as my freshman relgion teacher put it. Not literal truth, spirtual truth. All the truth you need for salvation. The meaning behind it is still the same, just different words. We do the same thing today. "The car went past really fast" "The car flew past at the speed of light." The car wasn't in the air, nor was it going at the speed of light. (there is a better comparison out there, but its late and I'm lazy.)

As for the existance of Jesus, (as someone stated earlier) there are Roman documents of Jesus-related stories. After Christmas break is over on the 3rd, I'll bring home my religion book and type them out if you want to see them. :rolleyes:

"While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mothers and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you." (Matthew 12:46)

"Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon?" (Mark 6:3)

"For even his own brothers did not believe in him." (John 7.5)

"They all joined together constantly in prayer along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers." (Acts 1:14)

None of these mention paternity, so they don't entirely apply here. However, they do talk about Mary and Jesus' brothers. Mary was Jesus' mother. James, Joseph, Judas and Simon were indeed his brothers, or rather, half brothers.
Jesus was God's son. Yeah.

Jesus was begotten, not made. Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit, taking Mary's DNA and Joseph's DNA to form the fetal Jesus. Since Joseph's DNA was used in this way, Jesus is related to David.
Lol, sort of like an early form of in vitro fertilization? Never thought of it that way..

On a rather immature note, am I the only one who giggles at this?
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee
:p

This is a JEW saying this.
I really don't know what
the fuck im talking about.

Heey, can you do my taxes?


(Had to say it) :p :D

If the same scenero as jesus were to happen in 2004 people would think it was a lie or hoax, but since it happened 2000 years ago somehow its more belivable. 99% of people who belive in Jesus do because they were told by their parents too, and they will tell their children to. And for those who may read this and say that they have their own belifs then I ask you.....what if you had grow up with some other religion, you would belive in it as much as the one you belive in now correct?
This would be why Got chose that time period. Think of it, God knows everything. so He knew when the perfect time was to send his son.

Mary was still yet a virgen. she had the DNA from god. But God had to tell joseph to pose as the husband because if joseph did not pose as a husband mary would be killed because of the laws. she would be an unmarried girl having a child. that was against the law at the time. so joseph is not at all the biological father of jesus. jesus is the direct son of god. he had to be immortal in order to be able to be able to stay alive and bear all the sins he attoned for. any othey person would not have the power over death and would have died. Because he was a biological decendant from god, it made it possible for him to live utill he deemed time. God has a physical body. Thats how it is possible.

I dunno. Let's ask the Bible.

Acts 2:30
"Therefore being a prophet [David], and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."

2 Tim.2:8
"Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David ....

"Rev.22:16
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David."


Obviously it's Joseph. Wait...waaaait...

Lk.1:31-35
"And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring for a son, and shalt call his name Jesus .... Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be seeing I know not a man. And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee."

Mt.1:18
"When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."




...Well...uh...shit.


Simple, its the mother that grants the "Jewish" soul, so its by the mother if you are gentile or jew. Its by the father that you find what house you are part of. Jesus's "step daddy" was of the house of David, and since his mother was married to him, Jesus was "his" by the law.

"that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh" by the laws of man, he was the house of David, and Joeseph was of David's lineage, so it fulfilled it. Maybe not the best of answers, but makes sense to me.

"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David." This line is showing that he is the root or beginning of King David, and he is the offspring. Lots of hidden meanings, and so one difintive meaning can not be made.

Prophecy is done in the perception of the person seeing the vision or dream, so that it can be understood by the brain of that person. So the words that are used may not be the most accurate, but they get the concept across.

God is Jesus's father. And no, Mary didn't have sex with God.

Joseph is the father of Jesus's brothers.

If I understand correctly, Mary was also a descendant of David.

Zeus? He was known to do this sort of thing. The bird bit is especially suspicious.

Oh yeah Zeus for sure.

Or like aliens from... space, yah. Jesus was an alien. From... space.

I am the true father of jesus christ

I am the true father of jesus christ

ROFL....

Jesus talked to me until I took the medicine.

jesus talked to me, until i punched him in his mouth for talking back

Mary was Joseph's second wife. He had children from a previous marriage.