NationStates Jolt Archive

For those that don't live in Washington State, the history of the race can be found here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A62923-2004Dec14.html

Basically we voted back in November like everybody else. Dino Rossi, the republican candidate, was found the winner via machine count by 216 votes (out of 2.8 million cast). State law dictated another machine recount, and he won again by over 42 votes. The secretary of state certified the results, and we thought it might be over.

But state law allows for a privately funded hand recount option. Christine Gregoire, the democratic candidate, said the race was a "virtual tie" and coughed up the dough (around 800k) to get a hand recount. Rossi called for her to concede for the good of the state, but Gregoire refused.

After Rossi had a net gain of 7 votes (to get 49 over Gregoire), the only remaining county to come back with results was King. Magically the dems found over 1000 "disputed ballots" not originally counted in the first two counts. After a heated court battle, some were allowed to be counted this time.

State law dictates that any ballots found after or disqualified by the canvassing board after the certification date cannot be counted. Yet the courts allowed them to be counted.

Now with the majority of the ballots counted, Gregoire is ahead by 10 votes. She is now calling for Rossi to concede even before the remaining 700 ballots are counted (which the majority will go to Gregoire).

Does it kinda sound asanine to anybody else? (I know I didn't explain it well, but read the article and it's self explanatory).

I think that the loser would feel like killing his/herself

I mean...look how close that is!

Times like these should dictate that the candidates should mud-wrestle for the win.

That said, am I the only one here who heard about a governor's race in Washington state and thought immediately of the movie "Black Sheep"?

Times like these should dictate that the candidates should mud-wrestle for the win.

That said, am I the only one here who heard about a governor's race in Washington state and thought immediately of the movie "Black Sheep"?

If you mean dead people magically voting about 6 weeks after the election ended, then yes. :-D

I think that I love Washington State and wish that this never ends. It's endlessly amusing to read all the recount/no recount news stories.

Although as Horsey said in an Editorial cartoon, why'd so many Dems vote for the Republican?:p
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/dayart/20041207/cartoon20041207.gif

The real winner is Ruth Bennett, who drew off enough votes to turn this into a close race.

If you mean dead people magically voting about 6 weeks after the election ended, then yes. :-D

Actually, I think that happened, except during the election...where's Chris Farley when you need him?

Actually, I think that happened, except during the election...where's Chris Farley when you need him?

lol Yeah, that's probably very true.

Well, you know they magically found 1000 extra votes. And somehow she turned out exactly 10 votes ahead of Rossi. Seems kinda fishy...

What the other counties shouldn't have done is certify before King County. What that did is give Gregoire's camp the exact number of votes she'd have to manufacture through "voter intent" to win the election.

"Voter intent" is a crock. If you're too stupid to fill in one bubble and one bubble only, or somehow do it incorrectly, then you deserve to be disenfranchised. :-)

Actually what happened was the state supreme court found that insufficient work was done to legally deem the ballots a loss. They werent "found" they were in a big pile of discounted votes for one reason or another. According to the story in our local newspaper in oregon they were discounted for unverifyable signature without even being compared to the registration card.

I just want to say, that I live in King COunty of Washington State. Pretty flippin' sweet, I feel so special.


Redmond, Washington :D




Btw, I voted for Gregoire.

lol Yeah, that's probably very true.

Well, you know they magically found 1000 extra votes. And somehow she turned out exactly 10 votes ahead of Rossi. Seems kinda fishy...

What the other counties shouldn't have done is certify before King County. What that did is give Gregoire's camp the exact number of votes she'd have to manufacture through "voter intent" to win the election.

"Voter intent" is a crock. If you're too stupid to fill in one bubble and one bubble only, or somehow do it incorrectly, then you deserve to be disenfranchised. :-)
They didn't "magically find" a thousand votes. They discovered that some ballots had been incorrectly tossed out and hadn't been counted in the first place. Had they been counted when they were supposed to be, then Rossi would have been the one asking for the recount instead of Gregoire.

Hey, as an Aussie, I am totally unaffected by the WA Governor Race.

But I am totally amused that you guys seem to have so much trouble counting votes, and so many elections decided by the courts.

Maybe some international monitors to ensure free and fair elections are required - I understand that the U.N has some experience in this area. I am confident that they would be happy to help out.

I live in Longview, WA. of Cowlitz County.

I find it rather funny how Gregoire gets more and more votes every recount. She wouldn't concede when Rossi won by almost 100, yet she wants him to concede over 8-10....

There will be a large court battle over this.

Washington is scaring away every single last large company we got, my county has lost several manufacturing plants that fed our town. I would also like to note the loss of Boeing...

Washington is sinking into a hole without GOP help...

They didn't "magically find" a thousand votes. They discovered that some ballots had been incorrectly tossed out and hadn't been counted in the first place. Had they been counted when they were supposed to be, then Rossi would have been the one asking for the recount instead of Gregoire.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but that seems to have been happening all over the state.

Military votes from overseas that came back late were denied earlier. They have yet to have been counted.

Now, Republicans say that they have 250 signed affidavids that Rossi voters (other than military personel) didn't have their votes counted either for the same reason. And they haven't checked the entire state yet, so chances are very good that there'll be many more just like them.

Now, Gregoire is ahead by 130. If I'm not mistaken, that would give Mr. Rossi the third count win. Shall we now go for best out of 7?

Those disputed votes MUST be counted if those in King county are to be counted. Otherwise, that is not equal protection under the law, which is unconstitutional. And, if it's unconstitutional, it's no longer a valid election. The courts decided to ignore the exact letter of the election law, period.

So yeah, now that Gregoire has decided to play hardball and get "every vote counted", let's count every last vote. She won't like the results, but it's no longer up to her.

You can't pick and choose those ballots in which you wish to reconsider. It's all or none, and the Supreme Court has decided to allow some.

Trying to manipulate the law and interpretation thereof will come back to haunt Mrs. Gregoire. And when that happens, we will have the true legit governor. :-)

I honestly think we should just have another election there because neither side is going to accept the result of a recount if it shows the other side won. I mean, I hope the Democrat wins, because we can use all the governers we can get...but I don't want to see it happen unfairly.

I honestly think we should just have another election there because neither side is going to accept the result of a recount if it shows the other side won. I mean, I hope the Democrat wins, because we can use all the governers we can get...but I don't want to see it happen unfairly.

You can't really have a new election, it would be so screwed up...

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but that seems to have been happening all over the state.

Military votes from overseas that came back late were denied earlier. They have yet to have been counted.

Now, Republicans say that they have 250 signed affidavids that Rossi voters (other than military personel) didn't have their votes counted either for the same reason. And they haven't checked the entire state yet, so chances are very good that there'll be many more just like them.

Now, Gregoire is ahead by 130. If I'm not mistaken, that would give Mr. Rossi the third count win. Shall we now go for best out of 7?

Those disputed votes MUST be counted if those in King county are to be counted. Otherwise, that is not equal protection under the law, which is unconstitutional. And, if it's unconstitutional, it's no longer a valid election. The courts decided to ignore the exact letter of the election law, period.

So yeah, now that Gregoire has decided to play hardball and get "every vote counted", let's count every last vote. She won't like the results, but it's no longer up to her.

You can't pick and choose those ballots in which you wish to reconsider. It's all or none, and the Supreme Court has decided to allow some.

Trying to manipulate the law and interpretation thereof will come back to haunt Mrs. Gregoire. And when that happens, we will have the true legit governor. :-)Hey look--I'm not a Washington citizen, so it doesn't affect me. All I care about is getting all the votes that were legally cast on time and in the proper manner counted. I don't have a dog in the hunt--Rossi, Gregoire, doesn't matter to me. But there are two components here--the votes have to have been cast in the proper manner, which seems to have been the case in King County, and if they were, then they need to be counted. If you folks want to do it in every county in the state, go right ahead, but that's got to be the criteria--not simply every vote cast.

Hey look--I'm not a Washington citizen, so it doesn't affect me. All I care about is getting all the votes that were legally cast on time and in the proper manner counted. I don't have a dog in the hunt--Rossi, Gregoire, doesn't matter to me. But there are two components here--the votes have to have been cast in the proper manner, which seems to have been the case in King County, and if they were, then they need to be counted. If you folks want to do it in every county in the state, go right ahead, but that's got to be the criteria--not simply every vote cast.

All I ask for is for the elections officials to count every vote by the same criterion so deemed appropriate by the King county officials.

That, my friend, is equal protection under the law.

And the basic criterion for King county was to count every vote, regardless of true, by the letter of the law legality. Voter intent was reportedly used on several occasions when multiple candidates were voted for on the same ballot or instructions were not followed (much like that down in Florida in 2000).

So yes, count the votes in the rest of the state based on the criterion allowed in King County.

The sad thing is that many boards are saying that they're through will recounting and refuse to reconsider these disputed ballots. What they fail to realize is that nobody cares if they're tired of counting; that's what they get paid for, and ultimately it's not their decision.

It'll be an interesting fight over the next few days. Anyways, Merry Christmas to all! :-)

I don't understand what people are bitching about; this is hardly interesting stuff. Its basically a question if the courts decide to count votes mistakenly not included in the original tally. The original precendent said no; the courts said yes this time; its on appeal.

Recount it a thousand times for all I care. So long as they agree (and so far they all agree) to figure it all out before the inaguration I'm fine with it. That's in January.

It really ticks me off to hear all the people who say "You voted for Kerry, why wouldn't you vote for Gregiore?" Washington has not been a straight ticket state for many years and it is my firm hope that it will never be one. Its disgusting to label a state and all its inhabitants by who they happened to vote for in an election...No matter who does it.

Gregiore and Rossi both had questionable records going into the election; both were very flawed canidates and WA voters split the ticket evenly, coming down on issues and canidate "feel". Its NOT an indication of a "Blue state going Red" or otherwise. Its an example of voters being truly unsure of what's best for their state. I couldn't be more pleased to hear that two equally bad canidates got two equally bad results. We'll sort out one eventually and go from there. Ho hum.

Well, I'm from Alaska, not Washington, so I just hope you folks get it all sorted out soon. Maybe now people will believe me when I say that voting really does matter.

I don't understand what people are bitching about; this is hardly interesting stuff. Its basically a question if the courts decide to count votes mistakenly not included in the original tally. The original precendent said no; the courts said yes this time; its on appeal.

Recount it a thousand times for all I care. So long as they agree (and so far they all agree) to figure it all out before the inaguration I'm fine with it. That's in January.

It really ticks me off to hear all the people who say "You voted for Kerry, why wouldn't you vote for Gregiore?" Washington has not been a straight ticket state for many years and it is my firm hope that it will never be one. Its disgusting to label a state and all its inhabitants by who they happened to vote for in an election...No matter who does it.

Gregiore and Rossi both had questionable records going into the election; both were very flawed canidates and WA voters split the ticket evenly, coming down on issues and canidate "feel". Its NOT an indication of a "Blue state going Red" or otherwise. Its an example of voters being truly unsure of what's best for their state. I couldn't be more pleased to hear that two equally bad canidates got two equally bad results. We'll sort out one eventually and go from there. Ho hum.

What's best for our state is to quit screwing over businesses. What's best for our state is to reign in our out of control spending habits.

Boeing has moved a large amount of their operations back east. Businesses are moving out of the state because of high input costs. For a state that is primarily industrial (yes, there are a few ag businesses here yet), we have one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation. State policies have made it expensive and difficult to own a business in this state.

Moreover, liberal ideals that everybody should have healthcare have caused premiums to rise for a standard family of four in perfect health from $300 a month to nearly $800. Meanwhile, state subsidized plans have risen in popularity because people that used to pay the premiums with little or no claims are no longer able to afford the full cost of the insurance. Basic Health Plans have taken their spots, and it's all subsidized by our tax dollars when it doesn't have to be.

This makes for higher taxes, bigger budget shortfalls, and more costs that are bourne by businesses.

While this was all going on, we were hit my a recession. Despite this fact, over the biennium the state budget was, and continues to be, increased over $2 billion each time (from around 21 billion in 2001-2003, 23 in 2003-2005, and proposed 26 billion in 2005-2007). Of course this is above the approximate annual inflationary rate of 3%. Despite the increase in funding, vital services like fire and police are being cut while the state spends $300,000 to put a rock park (yes, mineral rock) in Ephrata WA, the Grant County seat. They blamed service cutbacks on budget cutbacks. The truth of the matter was that they're expected budget still increased, just not fast enough to incorporate both existing services and new stupid programs such as the rock park.

Meanwhile, Locke has publically supported a state income tax on top of our current sales tax hovering around 8%, as well as a 5 cent/gallon gas tax (which had at one point been 50 cents), and a hefty increase in the "sin" tax.

Gregoire has been a proponent of these policies and some of Lockes' proposed policies. She plans to keep most of the beauracrats responsible for these problems in Olympia. These are the same people that allowed the state to be ran so poorly. The same state that has allowed unconstitutional recount practices that could potentially make Gregoire the governor.

That's why I care. I'd agree that it's stupid to look at it in the sense that a blue state going red, etc, but that doesn't mean that I can simply ignore the practices and policies that are destroying this state.

Sources: http://www.urban.org/Template.cfm?NavMenuID=24&template=/TaggedContent/ViewPublication.cfm&PublicationID=8771

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/news/release/121604.htm

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/CurrentInflation.asp

I'm in washington, a democrat, and this is one crazy rollercoaster ride.

Good post Weitzel, nicely written, if a little to heavy handed for my tastes. Local politics fail to stir in me any real sense of urgency; the risks are smaller and the numbers more managable. But that's just me.

Anyway; I agree that Locke was very inefficient during the last few years. He was a good enough showpiece (cute family, good speaker) when the state was rolling in money but he's proven to be rather useless at tightening the state budget belt.

I've failed to see any "change" coming from Rossi though, and many of the changes that he did propose I saw too many flaws in. Stripping out worker protections entirely is not the same as modifiying codes to make them useful for BOTH parties. Remember that ergonomics law from previous years? That plan was workable, if overzealous in scope; Washington has many laws like that...

Rossi simply didn't impress any sense of change on voters that I spoke with, he failed to clearly differentiate himself as the reform canidate you suggest he is. He seemed instead to be a very standard politician who would get little done to help WA's budget woes.

BTW; have you kept up on Boeing since they left? Their top level executives have been put under investigation of corruption. Considering the MASSIVE subsidies that we'd been shoveling to them for how many decades, and the free ride they'd been getting in taxes for a few hundred jobs; I'm not sorry to see them go. They barely qualified as private industry anymore. Bloated, inefficient, and now corrupt? Good riddance.

Good post Weitzel, nicely written, if a little to heavy handed for my tastes. Local politics fail to stir in me any real sense of urgency; the risks are smaller and the numbers more managable. But that's just me.

Anyway; I agree that Locke was very inefficient during the last few years. He was a good enough showpiece (cute family, good speaker) when the state was rolling in money but he's proven to be rather useless at tightening the state budget belt.

I've failed to see any "change" coming from Rossi though, and many of the changes that he did propose I saw too many flaws in. Stripping out worker protections entirely is not the same as modifiying codes to make them useful for BOTH parties. Remember that ergonomics law from previous years? That plan was workable, if overzealous in scope; Washington has many laws like that...

Rossi simply didn't impress any sense of change on voters that I spoke with, he failed to clearly differentiate himself as the reform canidate you suggest he is. He seemed instead to be a very standard politician who would get little done to help WA's budget woes.

BTW; have you kept up on Boeing since they left? Their top level executives have been put under investigation of corruption. Considering the MASSIVE subsidies that we'd been shoveling to them for how many decades, and the free ride they'd been getting in taxes for a few hundred jobs; I'm not sorry to see them go. They barely qualified as private industry anymore. Bloated, inefficient, and now corrupt? Good riddance.

Well, first of all thank you for your wonderful words. It's kinda far and between when somebody actually acts with dignity and respect. I thank you for it, and wish you nothing but the best. :-)

I'm not sure what part of the state you live in, but I've found that over here on the east side native eastern-Washingtonians (sounds weird I know) were extremely enthused with the idea that Rossi would change the state for the better. His offering to take applications on his website (as well as offering people like my uncle a job in person) has most everybody believing that he wants change, and he's gonna start by getting rid of the entrenched people in Olympia. Whether he actually does or not is another story altogether, but that is what the sentiment I've seen.

For the laws such as ergonomic standards you mentioned, we must remember that it has a cost. With every decision comes a consequence. If we want chairs that will prevent arthiritis in our 70's, then something has to be given up; beit a reduction in pay increase, a decrease in healthcare coverage, somebody getting laid off, or more working hours. We must remember that nothing in life is free and it all has a cost. Granted, there should be a certain amount of those laws to protect workers from unreasonable dangers. However, we must keep in mind that if we go overboard, then businesses will be forced to move to a location that does not have such laws (such as another state or overseas) to remain competitive in our global economy.

As far as Boeing goes, yes there has been corruption, and yes, there shouldn't be. Really, there shouldn't be any subsidies for any business out there. We've been getting slowly further away from capitalism and more into the government subsidized pseudo-socialist system (of course this is not 100% true because the reason for the subsidies is because of politicans getting kickbacks from businesses...).

However, I still think that we need places like Boeing. Just recently Japan Airlines bought 30 brand new 7E7's with the option of 20 more at a price tag of roughly $4 billion dollars. That's $4 billion back into our economy, and that's tax money on $4 billion dollars towards our huge trade deficits. That new $4 billion doesn't just benefit the employees of Boeing, but benefits everybody in the form of increased taxes and local businesses (if people have that much money, then they will spend it, which means more money into the economy).

So I really hate to see Boeing leave. That could have meant $4 billion into our economy, of which the taxes would have gone a long way towards fixing our budget problems. We cannot screw businesses over in a capitalistic society, otherwise there'll be nothing left to drive our economy and our way of life.

Seriously, how much difference will it make whether Dino or Christian wins?

Seriously, how much difference will it make whether Dino or Christian wins?

I could see why you wouldn't care who wins, seeing as how you supposedly live in Ireland.

However, to us that do live here, it holds slightly higher importance. It might mean the difference between having a poor economic situation versus one that is livable. It might mean that a state income tax will be instituted (on top of the sales tax).

It might also mean that the east side of the state will get the shaft. You see, the Cascade Mountain range seperates Washington state into two totally different regions. The west side is extremely wet, and is comprised of industry (or services). The population density is high there, and they are mostly liberal in political nature. On the east side is a desert, lower population density, and conservatives. Olympia, the state capital, is located on the west side, and many people on the east side resent the fact that the people in power (ie the west side) control the laws and taxes for the poorer east siders. In other words, many on this side feel that many on that side shouldn't be deciding the laws and taxes that affect us.

Anyways, without diving in further, suffice it to say it's kinda like the struggle for freedom in your own country, except without the violence or many, many years of struggle (I know, it is nowhere near the magnitude of the fight for Irish freedom, but the fact remains that people were tired of being ruled by a class of people so far removed from their way of life...)

I have a theory about this race.

Ralph Nader had no effect on the presidential election, no state was decided within the margin of the vote that Nader recieved. BUT, Nader brought out far left liberals to the polls, people who wouldn't have otherwise voted.

In Washington, these lefties, probably voted for the democratic candidate (or at least some of them), meaning Nader probably tipped the balance in the Washington governors race. See? interesting idea, probably dead wrong... but still fun to bounce around in your mind.

I live in King County, i didn't vote for Gregoire, i don't like her, or Rossi, I voted for the libertarian candidate whoever that was, but i would like the dems to win. But that aside, i think we should have another election. They did it in the Ukraine. We need to put off the inaguration for a bit, actually institue statewide election standards, and do it again. People keep talking about counting all of the votes fairly, and equal protection and such, but the counties all have different ways of voting, touch screens, fill in the bubble, whatever. SOme of these methods have greater error ratings than others, why should being in one county or another change the value of your vote? There need to be statewide standards, and state wide standards for which votes get counted. I want a new election, and if we have one, could we maybe get a candidate who actually is any good? BTW, you were talking about the differences between the east and west sides of our state, and you are certainly right about them, we really have nothing in common. I personaly think that we need to split the state and make two.
I don't really believe Rossi is going to make the changes he promises, i don't even know what Gregoire was running on, but you are right that we need to make our state more acceptable to buisness. We should stop penalizing them. But we shouldn't offer them tax breaks either, let them compete under the same strictures as all of us. I don't belive in higher taxes on the wealthy, there is nothing wrong with being rich, we simply need to make sure that taxation, be it of people or business, is never so much as to make it impossible to compete or survive.

I live in King County, i didn't vote for Gregoire, i don't like her, or Rossi, I voted for the libertarian candidate whoever that was, but i would like the dems to win. But that aside, i think we should have another election. They did it in the Ukraine. We need to put off the inaguration for a bit, actually institue statewide election standards, and do it again. People keep talking about counting all of the votes fairly, and equal protection and such, but the counties all have different ways of voting, touch screens, fill in the bubble, whatever. SOme of these methods have greater error ratings than others, why should being in one county or another change the value of your vote? There need to be statewide standards, and state wide standards for which votes get counted. I want a new election, and if we have one, could we maybe get a candidate who actually is any good? BTW, you were talking about the differences between the east and west sides of our state, and you are certainly right about them, we really have nothing in common. I personaly think that we need to split the state and make two.
I don't really believe Rossi is going to make the changes he promises, i don't even know what Gregoire was running on, but you are right that we need to make our state more acceptable to buisness. We should stop penalizing them. But we shouldn't offer them tax breaks either, let them compete under the same strictures as all of us. I don't belive in higher taxes on the wealthy, there is nothing wrong with being rich, we simply need to make sure that taxation, be it of people or business, is never so much as to make it impossible to compete or survive.

Rossi just sent a letter to Gregoire asking for another vote.

I say it'll be a cold day in hell before she'll accept it. In which case she'll just be showing everybody that she's not interested in fairness, legality, or what's right for Washington, but rather her own selfish needs. I mean, she already has because Dino has called for the same standards that were applied to King county to apply to the rest of the state. However, Gregoire, Reed, and the canvassing boards decided upon themselves to disregard equal protection under the law and say that other counties will not provide equal opportunity to reconsider previously unrightfully discarded ballots.

It's never been about fairness with Gregoire, it was about winning. And folks, she stole the election fair and square. I say if she doesn't want a revote, then let her destroy what remains of this state, and in 4 years Dino can run again (or have a recall...).

A potential development in the fiasco complements of the Wenatchee World newspaper:

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Page*A04 Story - Friday - December 31, 2004

Republicans want King County to explain 3,500-vote discrepancy
SEATTLE (AP) -- The day after King County released a list of nearly 900,000 voters who cast ballots Nov. 2, Republicans prodded election officials to explain why the list appeared to have about 3,500 fewer names than the number of votes that were actually tallied.
In a response that all but said, "Settle down!" county officials stressed the list was preliminary, noting that records of voters who cast certain write-in ballots and people who wanted their addresses kept confidential still had to be reconciled with election data.
King County Election Director Dean Logan said a full, updated list is expected to be complete by the end of next week -- what might seem like an eternity to Republican Dino Rossi and GOP leaders who are mulling whether to contest the hand recount that made Democrat Christine Gregoire governor-elect by a mere 129 votes out of more than 2.8 million cast.
"We want those names now," Rossi told a news conference at his Bellevue headquarters about a half hour before Gregoire's victory speech. "You can't certify an election with 3,500 mystery voters."
Yet Secretary of State Sam Reed, a Republican, did just that Thursday morning.
After officially declaring Gregoire the winner, Reed said he was surprised by the King County discrepancy, but not concerned enough to withhold certification. "We have no reason to believe the votes were not properly cast," he said.
In all, King County tallied 899,199 votes on Nov. 2, while the preliminary list the county gave Republicans and others who had requested it credited only 895,660 people with voting.
"If they never explain this adequately, that's a huge bombshell in this race," state GOP Chairman Chris Vance said.
Gregoire's spokesman Morton Brilliant said Republicans were acting like children watching a batch of cookies baking, reaching in too early, then complaining that they're still gooey.
Rossi has called for a complete re-do of the election.
"The waters have been so muddied, and it's such a mess that to really have confidence, I think we're going to have to go back and ask the voters again, 'What do you want to do?' " he said Thursday.
Vance said party operatives would be on the lookout for votes from dead people, felons, people who illegally voted from a post office box service, or other illegalities. "If we find 1,000 illegal votes, 500, 200, that's it. We have a compelling case to carry forward."

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If this turns out to be true, that'll be one big reason to apeal...