NationStates Jolt Archive

Tiresome phrase isn't it. Knew that title would get your attention. Because initially, I seem to be an aethiest, but I'm a Christian. Truth is, I created this thread to discuss your views. Please post them and let the discussion begin. Please be careful to not do anything that could be interpreted as Flaming. Ex. don't blatantly say "You are wrong" simply express that you disagree and if there is grounds for it, explain it. These are the types of discussions I really enjoy

What are we supposed to be discussing? What's the subject?

I just tell em "YOUR WRONG!"

or

"Your mom's wrong"

and they'll shut up. Reply to a moronic statement with a moronic statement.

Last night I believed that the ham in my fridge was still good. But it wasn't. It was a wrong belief, even though I believed it strongly.

Post your views on religion and spirituality, sorry if I wasn't ver clear.

I beleive that religion and spirituality are unnecessary. I also believe that nobody has the right to force anyone to abandon his beliefs.

There are quite a few mutually exclusive religious philosophies out there.

My bet is that 100% rather than 99.999% of them are bunk.

Well, I believe that we are all worshipping the same thing, in different ways, obviously,though our varying worldviews. The basic concept of my personal belief system (Wicca) can be summed up in two words -- Perfect Love. Is this not universal?

Being agnostic my ideas in the way of religion simplify easily (though can easily get in depth)

We don’t know


It boils down to that

Blind faith was never my thing. And creating fiction to make myself feel better does not appeal to me (that’s why I would have to know it is NOT fiction … or mostly anyways)

Don’t believe in organized religion myself … I have a feeling if I “Find god” it wont be through any formal religion constructs currently in place.

I am leaving my mind open while being skeptical at the same time.

I beleive that religion and spirituality are unnecessary. I also believe that nobody has the right to force anyone to abandon his beliefs.
It's impossible to force God on someone. Besides, it's against scripture. He wants us to come to him willingly. As far as unnecessity, probably, but I am certainly better off without it. Without it I really lacked any kind of guidance. With it, I have more purpose in my life. I won't go as far as to say necessity, but I'd be worse off without it. Moreso spirituality than religion.

Being agnostic my ideas in the way of religion simplify easily (though can easily get in depth)

We don’t know


It boils down to that

Blind faith was never my thing. And creating fiction to make myself feel better does not appeal to me (that’s why I would have to know it is NOT fiction … or mostly anyways)

Don’t believe in organized religion myself … I have a feeling if I “Find god” it wont be through any formal religion constructs currently in place.

I am leaving my mind open while being skeptical at the same time.

Good point. One might be able to "find God" by sitting in the middle of a cornfield and smoking pot.

As for perfect love, great concept, fits perfectly with God's will, honestly, I wish a lot less of my brothers and sisters in Christ were less condemning. Even some of the very loving and compasionate ones I've met are quick to turn to condemnation if someone disagrees with them, and that fails to provide an acurate demonstration of God's perfect love.

because you touch yourself at night!

Being agnostic my ideas in the way of religion simplify easily (though can easily get in depth)

We don’t know


It boils down to that

Blind faith was never my thing. And creating fiction to make myself feel better does not appeal to me (that’s why I would have to know it is NOT fiction … or mostly anyways)

Don’t believe in organized religion myself … I have a feeling if I “Find god” it wont be through any formal religion constructs currently in place.

I am leaving my mind open while being skeptical at the same time.
I used to be agnostic in the way you describe; I was sure that doubt was the only logical option.
Then I had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ (though not in a physical manifestation or vision, I should add), so now I'm a Christian, and following Jesus, without total success, but without quitting yet either.
An open yet sceptical mind seems a pretty good way to go to me; you can't just go believing everything that everyone tells you, but realising that we might have something to learn is a very deep truth. My mind was closed to the idea of Christianity being true, but God just seemed to persuade me anyway (doing ordinarily impossible things being one of God's strong suits).
Hope this didn't come across as patronizing, it wasn't meant to be.
:)

Last night I believed that the ham in my fridge was still good. But it wasn't. It was a wrong belief, even though I believed it strongly.


LOL......ha!

I used to be agnostic in the way you describe; I was sure that doubt was the only logical option.
Then I had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ (though not in a physical manifestation or vision, I should add), so now I'm a Christian, and following Jesus, without total success, but without quitting yet either.
An open yet sceptical mind seems a pretty good way to go to me; you can't just go believing everything that everyone tells you, but realising that we might have something to learn is a very deep truth. My mind was closed to the idea of Christianity being true, but God just seemed to persuade me anyway (doing ordinarily impossible things being one of God's strong suits).
Hope this didn't come across as patronizing, it wasn't meant to be.
:)
I was Christian until both life and experience taught me that is not all there is out there and might not be best for me.

Not meaning to be patronizing but I came from the other end of the spectrum where life or logic or whatever you want to call it is presenting itself I have to listen to logic … that is me… and frankly it makes a lot more sense

I was Christian until both life and experience taught me that is not all there is out there and might not be best for me.

Not meaning to be patronizing but I came from the other end of the spectrum where life or logic or whatever you want to call it is presenting itself I have to listen to logic … that is me… and frankly it makes a lot more sense
Could you be more specific?
I know you might not want to talk about all of your reasons for moving away from Christian beliefs, but I don't know how to discuss this with you in terms as general as the ones you used in the post I just quoted.

Tiresome phrase isn't it. Knew that title would get your attention. Because initially, I seem to be an aethiest, but I'm a Christian. Truth is, I created this thread to discuss your views. Please post them and let the discussion begin. Please be careful to not do anything that could be interpreted as Flaming. Ex. don't blatantly say "You are wrong" simply express that you disagree and if there is grounds for it, explain it. These are the types of discussions I really enjoy

I think we have had this discussion already in another thread.

"We don’t know and we don't care"

I like where this is going.

I think we have had this discussion already in another thread.
sort of, but I never get tired of it.

I like where this is going.

Constructive posts are a good thing indeed. (I'm starting to sound like Martha Stewart...shoot me.)

Constructive posts are a good thing indeed. (I'm starting to sound like Martha Stewart...shoot me.)
:sniper: j/k ;)

Could you be more specific?
I know you might not want to talk about all of your reasons for moving away from Christian beliefs, but I don't know how to discuss this with you in terms as general as the ones you used in the post I just quoted.
To start with the organized part of it
2 hypocrisy

Then starts coming to general philosophical terms … without blind faith how do you tell that you are right. (emotions are a subjective feeling and are not “proof” in my book) I can feel perfectly content I made the right until I find out that I was living in ignorance


I guess it boils down to
I don’t believe in the current incarnation of Christianity and have real issues with organized religion throughout history

I don’t have proof … and even if I had a feeling one way or the other feelings are a slippery slope almost always without backing and can frequently be proved to be unfounded


All in all I would rather be unsure then sure and wrong.

To start with the organized part of it
2 hypocrisy

Then starts coming to general philosophical terms … without blind faith how do you tell that you are right. (emotions are a subjective feeling and are not “proof” in my book) I can feel perfectly content I made the right until I find out that I was living in ignorance


I guess it boils down to
I don’t believe in the current incarnation of Christianity and have real issues with organized religion throughout history

I don’t have proof … and even if I had a feeling one way or the other feelings are a slippery slope almost always without backing and can frequently be proved to be unfounded


All in all I would rather be unsure then sure and wrong.
We have experienced similar things. I once experinced a great deal of hypocrisy, and see it every day I go to church. That's why I don't go very often, and when I do, I church hop alot. Difference is, I turned to God and away from my brothers rather than away from God.

Well, I believe that we are all worshipping the same thing, in different ways, obviously,though our varying worldviews. The basic concept of my personal belief system (Wicca) can be summed up in two words -- Perfect Love. Is this not universal?

Amen!

the book "where are you going" by swami muktananda changed my life. it's about some of the very basal ideas of kashmir shaivism, shared by many many sects out there. "truth" is a matter of the beholder, just like everything else, and therefore it's impossible to differentiate different religions.

To start with the organized part of it
2 hypocrisy

Then starts coming to general philosophical terms … without blind faith how do you tell that you are right. (emotions are a subjective feeling and are not “proof” in my book) I can feel perfectly content I made the right until I find out that I was living in ignorance


I guess it boils down to
I don’t believe in the current incarnation of Christianity and have real issues with organized religion throughout history

I don’t have proof … and even if I had a feeling one way or the other feelings are a slippery slope almost always without backing and can frequently be proved to be unfounded


All in all I would rather be unsure then sure and wrong.
I agree with you about hypocrisy. I hate hypocrisy, especially in myself, so that's where I'm starting to reduce the world's hypocrisy, by attempting to reduce my own.
Philosophically, you're absolutely right, it is impossible to logically know that one is right. On a day-to-day level, we all make many, many assumptions (e.g., my senses are providing me accurate information, I am able to reason, not everyone is out to kill me) that are so fundamental to life that we call them knowledge. I often use the verbs "to assume", "to believe", and "to know" fairly interchangeably in these matters, as I don't think there's much difference.
What I can say is that I know that God is real, and loves me, and has a plan for my life, as much as I know that I'm real.
I'm sad that you are turned away from Christianity by historical (and present) evil in the Church. I hope you can find an example of a Christian community that doesn't make you respond like that.
I don't have proof, and yes, feelings can be deceptive, but what am I supposed to do? Not follow God because I feel that He wants me to?
I would also rather be unsure that sure and wrong, but on the reality of God, I'm just sure I'm not wrong. Can't prove it (can't prove anything), but there you are . . .

I agree with you about hypocrisy. I hate hypocrisy, especially in myself, so that's where I'm starting to reduce the world's hypocrisy, by attempting to reduce my own.
Philosophically, you're absolutely right, it is impossible to logically know that one is right. On a day-to-day level, we all make many, many assumptions (e.g., my senses are providing me accurate information, I am able to reason, not everyone is out to kill me) that are so fundamental to life that we call them knowledge. I often use the verbs "to assume", "to believe", and "to know" fairly interchangeably in these matters, as I don't think there's much difference.
What I can say is that I know that God is real, and loves me, and has a plan for my life, as much as I know that I'm real.
I'm sad that you are turned away from Christianity by historical (and present) evil in the Church. I hope you can find an example of a Christian community that doesn't make you respond like that.
I don't have proof, and yes, feelings can be deceptive, but what am I supposed to do? Not follow God because I feel that He wants me to?
I would also rather be unsure that sure and wrong, but on the reality of God, I'm just sure I'm not wrong. Can't prove it (can't prove anything), but there you are . . .


i understand where you are coming from ... and truth is everything to me ... hence the open mind

(also the reason I am agnostic not athiest) but I just cant accept something on feeling alone... thats just not me

First let me state that God is too big for just one religion, and may have contracts or covenants with other religions.

I follow the Catholic faith that Peter and Paul founded after Jesus died and came back and asended into Heaven.

Jesus left these two in charge for a reason, yet throughout history people have used and abused their religion for power, wealth, politics and other reasons. Hence many people broke off of Catholic faith to form their own form of Christianity.

Let me state that there is nothing perfect or good, except for God, all else have fell short of God and are imperect or have sinned. This universe and everything in it is flawed, there is no perfection, no perfect love, everything can be improved on.

I myself suffer from depression, suicidal thoughts, major mood disorder, schizoaffective disorder, stress disorder, MPD, and also many physical illnesses. I have come close to death many times by my hand, the hand of another, or accidents or illnesses. Each time, there was a higher power that saved me, that higher power being Jesus, who is not of this world or universe. Jesus has the perfect love that is missing in this universe, Jesus is a perfect being. He sent me back, saying there are still things I need to do, but he did not tell me what I needed to do. I have also in my darkest hours, been visited by Angels, one of them on September took control of my car during an accident and made the car miss a telephone pole. I was hit in the head and unable to steer the car myself in that manner.

In short, I am lucky to be alive, thanks to divine intervention.

the book "where are you going" by swami muktananda changed my life. it's about some of the very basal ideas of kashmir shaivism, shared by many many sects out there. "truth" is a matter of the beholder, just like everything else, and therefore it's impossible to differentiate different religions.
there are certainly similarities between the monotheistic, and really all, religions. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all believe the Torah, which describes a fall from grace, and subsequent cast from Eden. It's either Buddhism or Hinduism that describes a fall from enlightenment near the beginning of our sense time. Now we are all trying to find our way back to the Divine. I personally believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that no one gets to the Father but through Him. However, it's hard to deny the similarities.

I do not beleive in a god or the spirit of life, etc.

I do though think there is a logical/reasonable system that we can create to form social structures and therefore a higher standard of living. Kind of a mix between Hobbes and Rawls, though my view on human nature is not as bleak as Hobbes.

We have experienced similar things. I once experinced a great deal of hypocrisy, and see it every day I go to church. That's why I don't go very often, and when I do, I church hop alot. Difference is, I turned to God and away from my brothers rather than away from God.
Ghannas, your church-hopping concerns me. I certainly believe that you are a Christian, but I think you need to belong to a local Christian community, as well as the worldwide Church.
No local church that you attend will be perfect, as all of them are filled with imperfect people. You can help them, and they can help you, even if it doesn't always feel like help, but you've gotta get in a community to do that.
Not meaning to lecture, hope you're not seriously offended.

Well, I believe that we are all worshipping the same thing, in different ways, obviously,though our varying worldviews. The basic concept of my personal belief system (Wicca) can be summed up in two words -- Perfect Love. Is this not universal?

What if we aren't worshipping anything?

Personally, I feel that religion is unnecessary and, indeed, antithetical to a relationship with God. If an individual has Faith then no religion can fully comprehend or successfully dictate the terms of that individual's relationship. If one does not have Faith then religion is merely a system of meaningless rituals (not that there is no value in ritual for the sake of ritual, it's just that, without Faith, these have nothing to do with God).

There was a time when I had Faith. At that time I would perform rituals such as prayer and communion because they gave my life dignity and discipline. At that time I also had a great deal of pre-marital sex, on one occasion with a person of the same sex as myself. My Faith in God was not dictated by any organized religion, though at the time I might have called myself religious, not spiritual. I was not an agnostic then because I knew what God was to me, there was no doubt. I had a personal and nameless religion, not a spirituality.

Then, inexplicably, I stopped having Faith. I no longer know God. I am an atheist, not an agnostic. Without Faith God does not exist.

Saying that all religions are worshipping the same thing is a fallacy. When you, as a Wiccan, claim that a Catholic is worshipping the same thing as you, you are saying that you and another human being are experiencing the same sense of connectedness to some Divine Other. You are also denying both Catholicism and Wicca. The two religions are incompatible. You are saying that you are not a Wiccan and that the other person is not a Catholic. You have to choose, either you believe in the teachings of your religion or you don't.

As far as I'm concerned, saying that one is a Catholic or a Wiccan is as valid as saying one is a Jedi Knight. They are all equally fanciful and absurd systems of belief.

Faith or no Faith. Religious or Atheist. There is no in between.

What if we aren't worshipping anything?

Personally, I feel that religion is unnecessary and, indeed, antithetical to a relationship with God. If an individual has Faith then no religion can fully comprehend or successfully dictate the terms of that individual's relationship. If one does not have Faith then religion is merely a system of meaningless rituals (not that there is no value in ritual for the sake of ritual, it's just that, without Faith, these have nothing to do with God).

There was a time when I had Faith. At that time I would perform rituals such as prayer and communion because they gave my life dignity and discipline. At that time I also had a great deal of pre-marital sex, on one occasion with a person of the same sex as myself. My Faith in God was not dictated by any organized religion, though at the time I might have called myself religious, not spiritual. I was not an agnostic then because I knew what God was to me, there was no doubt. I had a personal and nameless religion, not a spirituality.

Then, inexplicably, I stopped having Faith. I no longer know God. I am an atheist, not an agnostic. Without Faith God does not exist.

Saying that all religions are worshipping the same thing is a fallacy. When you, as a Wiccan, claim that a Catholic is worshipping the same thing as you, you are saying that you and another human being are experiencing the same sense of connectedness to some Divine Other. You are also denying both Catholicism and Wicca. The two religions are incompatible. You are saying that you are not a Wiccan and that the other person is not a Catholic. You have to choose, either you believe in the teachings of your religion or you don't.

As far as I'm concerned, saying that one is a Catholic or a Wiccan is as valid as saying one is a Jedi Knight. They are all equally fanciful and absurd systems of belief.

Faith or no Faith. Religious or Atheist. There is no in between.

Well, as long as you're not intentionally hurting anyone or anything living, I've got nothing against you.


My religion teaches that no one is wrong, so I cannot say that Catholics are NOT worshipping the same Deity that I am worshipping. That does not deny either belief system. I believe mine is right, but Catholics believe theirs is right. It's just different sides of the same coin. It's called POINT OF VIEW. Just because I'm able to see things from various points of view doesn't give you the right to say I'm wrong.

Being agnostic my ideas in the way of religion simplify easily (though can easily get in depth)

We don’t know
I agree, but I take it to another level. I say "We can not know--yet, at least."


I am leaving my mind open while being skeptical at the same time.
Best way to be by far.

Then I had a personal encounter with Jesus Christ
Did you "find God" by "sitting in the middle of a cornfield and smoking pot"?

(though not in a physical manifestation or vision, I should add)
Aww. :( Well, how would you characterise this "personal encounter with Jesus Christ"? Most of the time people say they see Mary if they ever see, or claim to have seen, a divine incarnation.

i understand where you are coming from ... and truth is everything to me ... hence the open mind

(also the reason I am agnostic not athiest) but I just cant accept something on feeling alone... thats just not me
I really respect the stand you're taking. As I understand it, you believe the truth is out there (apologies to X-files fans!), but you're not sure how to recognise it, or even if anyone else has recognised it yet.
I have a small suggestion, which is that God may be able to overcome your logical barriers to faith in Him (as I believe He did with me), and that He may also be able to affect your emotions (as I believe He does with me). If you think that may be happening, you need to decide whether to go with it, or resist it.
I sincerely wish you well in your search for truth.

I really respect the stand you're taking. As I understand it, you believe the truth is out there (apologies to X-files fans!), but you're not sure how to recognise it, or even if anyone else has recognised it yet.
I have a small suggestion, which is that God may be able to overcome your logical barriers to faith in Him (as I believe He did with me), and that He may also be able to affect your emotions (as I believe He does with me). If you think that may be happening, you need to decide whether to go with it, or resist it.
I sincerely wish you well in your search for truth.
As of right now its not happening but I will keep an open mind about it ... always have

But have a feeling even if I do accept a diety it wont be any organized religion

Ghannas, your church-hopping concerns me. I certainly believe that you are a Christian, but I think you need to belong to a local Christian community, as well as the worldwide Church.
No local church that you attend will be perfect, as all of them are filled with imperfect people. You can help them, and they can help you, even if it doesn't always feel like help, but you've gotta get in a community to do that.
Not meaning to lecture, hope you're not seriously offended.
of course not, some of my friends tell me the same things. If I plan on going I pray about where to go, or go as I feel in my spirit I need to. I'm afraid of being led into the rut of denominationalism. If I become another dogmatic and start condemning everything I see. I love many of my brothers and sisters in several churches, and the combination of different fellowships and more people that I know I can count on if I need them is a security I need right now. I've gone through some tough times, and without God and his other children, not the people of any single denomination, I wouldn't be doing so well.

Stephanie - Southern Baptist
Denise - Pentecostal
Brock - Christian(i.e. like myself, but he goes to one church regularly)
Rev. David Stringer - Episcopalian
Dustin - Pentecostal
Randy - Catholic
Brook - Apostolic

The list goes on, and as you can see, the denominations are quite diverse.

I believe there is a God.

I believe there is a God.
As I see it, that's a good place to start. I hope He sees fit to reveal Himself to you as His will would have it.

Did you "find God" by "sitting in the middle of a cornfield and smoking pot"?

Aww. :( Well, how would you characterise this "personal encounter with Jesus Christ"? Most of the time people say they see Mary if they ever see, or claim to have seen, a divine incarnation.
No, the pot-smoking in a cornfield was someone else.
And it's difficult to characterise my ongoing personal relationship with Jesus. There's the radical shift in my worldview, not really brought about my my own mental effort. There's the series of "coincidences" that have led to my doing things I would never have planned for myself. There's the change in my character (more generosity, less pornography, though I want that one to become "no pornography"). There's the miraculous events that I have been part of (supernatural healing on several occasions). There's the sense of direction and stablity in my life (admittedly a subjective concept). There's prayers that have been answered (and some where the answer has been "No", or "Not yet"). There's the two-way mental communication with God.
These don't define my relationship with Jesus; they're just examples of it in practice. I hope to have more and more to tell as my life with Jesus continues.
And yes, I know you were making fun of me. ;)

Stephanie - Southern Baptist
I hate to stereotype like this, and I know I prejudiced, but from my experience, Southern Baptist = Devil Incarnate. If there are actually some tolerable Southern Baptists out there, I have never met one. Same with Evangelicals and Christian Scientists. Has anyone that's not a devout Christian every found any of the above that are not complete jerkwads?

And yes, I know you were making fun of me. ;)
I've decided that even though you believe in supernatural healing, you are a perfectly fine person because of your post. You are one of the religious types that I simply can not argue with, and I greatly admire those individuals who are like that. People like you are the reason I do not condemn religion itself, but just some of the members.

of course not, some of my friends tell me the same things. If I plan on going I pray about where to go, or go as I feel in my spirit I need to. I'm afraid of being led into the rut of denominationalism. If I become another dogmatic and start condemning everything I see. I love many of my brothers and sisters in several churches, and the combination of different fellowships and more people that I know I can count on if I need them is a security I need right now. I've gone through some tough times, and without God and his other children, not the people of any single denomination, I wouldn't be doing so well.

Stephanie - Southern Baptist
Denise - Pentecostal
Brock - Christian(i.e. like myself, but he goes to one church regularly)
Rev. David Stringer - Episcopalian
Dustin - Pentecostal
Randy - Catholic
Brook - Apostolic

The list goes on, and as you can see, the denominations are quite diverse.
I'm really glad that you don't want to get into a denominational "My church is the only good church" mindset. I go to a Vineyard church (Bristol Vineyard, in the U.K., to be precise), but it's more important to me that I'm following Jesus, and that the church I'm a member of is following Him as well, whichever denom. that might be.
Keep praying about it; you know if you trust God, He'll see you right.

I've decided that even though you believe in supernatural healing, you are a perfectly fine person because of your post. You are one of the religious types that I simply can not argue with, and I greatly admire those individuals who are like that. People like you are the reason I do not condemn religion itself, but just some of the members.
Agreed ... 100%

I hate to stereotype like this, and I know I prejudiced, but from my experience, Southern Baptist = Devil Incarnate. If there are actually some tolerable Southern Baptists out there, I have never met one. Same with Evangelicals and Christian Scientists. Has anyone that's not a devout Christian every found any of the above that are not complete jerkwads?
sadly, they are some of the first to condemn, I'll never wear my fishnet shirt and black lipstick there again I'll tell you.

finally a thread everyone appears to like.

Well, as long as you're not intentionally hurting anyone or anything living, I've got nothing against you.


My religion teaches that no one is wrong, so I cannot say that Catholics are NOT worshipping the same Deity that I am worshipping. That does not deny either belief system. I believe mine is right, but Catholics believe theirs is right. It's just different sides of the same coin. It's called POINT OF VIEW. Just because I'm able to see things from various points of view doesn't give you the right to say I'm wrong.

I am not trying to insult anyone here, this is just a discussion.

That said, I personally feel that claiming that "no one is wrong" is a cop out. It is the same as saying that female circumcision is not wrong because many women want to be circumcised because of the culture they grew up in. It is also called moral relativism. Furthermore it is a dangerous way to look at the world. I hate to bring up the Nazi's here but just because I am able to see things through Hitler's point of view does not mean that I have any respect for it whatsoever. Hitler was not just of a different opinion, Hitler was wrong.
Do you respect the rights of homosexuals to marry? A person who calls themself a Catholic but also supports Gay Rights is not really a Catholic, they are just a person who wants to belong. Or they simply lack the courage, intelligence, or imagination to define what they believe for themself. Personally, I think that homosexuals have every right to marry. I think that if the Bible says that they cannot then the Bible does not just have a different point of view, the Bible is wrong.
Look, you may well be right; maybe no one is wrong. But that is not the point. Until we can know definitively that there is no right or wrong, it is our responsibility as human beings to try and determine what they are.

gotta agree with trow, someone is definately wrong. I'm not going to say it's not me, it could be. I simply have faith that I'm not being mislead by my King.

gotta agree with trow, someone is definately wrong. I'm not going to say it's not me, it could be. I simply have faith that I'm not being mislead by my King.

Right, I'm not saying that I'm right or that you are wrong. I'm just saying that I don't think we are at the point yet as a species were we can make absolute claims like "no one is wrong."

I've decided that even though you believe in supernatural healing, you are a perfectly fine person because of your post. You are one of the religious types that I simply can not argue with, and I greatly admire those individuals who are like that. People like you are the reason I do not condemn religion itself, but just some of the members.
Then that answers part of your question in your post above, because I characterise myself as an Evangelical, among other things, though I'm a follower of Jesus first and foremost.
:D
I think that your post is one of the nicest things anyone has said to me on NationStates. Thanks!
And as for the supernatural healing, probably the main reason I believe in it is because I've witnessed it myself (I have been miraculously healed from pain without expecting to be, and I've prayed for someone with backache whose back got much better within the hour), and I've heard credible eyewitness accounts from people I trust.

I've decided that even though you believe in supernatural healing, you are a perfectly fine person because of your post. You are one of the religious types that I simply can not argue with, and I greatly admire those individuals who are like that. People like you are the reason I do not condemn religion itself, but just some of the members.
Think about this, could it be, you'll probably say yes, that the only reason you don't believe in supernatural healing is that you haven't experienced it?

I am not trying to insult anyone here, this is just a discussion.

That said, I personally feel that claiming that "no one is wrong" is a cop out. It is the same as saying that female circumcision is not wrong because many women want to be circumcised because of the culture they grew up in. It is also called moral relativism. Furthermore it is a dangerous way to look at the world. I hate to bring up the Nazi's here but just because I am able to see things through Hitler's point of view does not mean that I have any respect for it whatsoever. Hitler was not just of a different opinion, Hitler was wrong.
Do you respect the rights of homosexuals to marry? A person who calls themself a Catholic but also supports Gay Rights is not really a Catholic, they are just a person who wants to belong. Or they simply lack the courage, intelligence, or imagination to define what they believe for themself. Personally, I think that homosexuals have every right to marry. I think that if the Bible says that they cannot then the Bible does not just have a different point of view, the Bible is wrong.
Look, you may well be right; maybe no one is wrong. But that is not the point. Until we can know definitively that there is no right or wrong, it is our responsibility as human beings to try and determine what they are.

I'm not saying that hurting someone is not wrong. I'm not saying that slaughtering entire groups of people is not wrong. I'm saying I just can't condemn someone else's specific God/religion. It may be right for them. That's all I'm trying to say.

I've got no problem with claiming that someone's actions are wrong, as long as they are being unfair in some way to another living being.

Agreed ... 100%
Gee, guys, you could make a fella blush here!

Meh ... I'm a Muslim.

I tend not to concern myself with what others believe, but rather do what I can to make myself a better Muslim.

Meh ... I'm a Muslim.

I tend not to concern myself with what others believe, but rather do what I can to make myself a better Muslim.
This was way to broad of a question. Is there any single defining principle to sum up the message of the muslim faith. Ex. Christianity is often primarily identified with the message of John 3:11 "For God so loved the world that he gave unto it His only begotten Son, and all who believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Is there anything that you could use to explain the muslim faith in a similar fashion?

Just a few things I have thought about this topic:

1. If there is a God, he/she probably couldn't care less if you believe in her/him or not.

2. Something in almost all of us yearns for what might be termed "spiritual certainty."

3. Prayer really does change things. This has been scientifically verfied ... repeatedly.

4. Uniformity of belief is excellent social glue.

5. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle applies to virtually everything.

6. There is conflict between evolution and Christianity only if you accept that the Genesis account is to be taken literally.

Film at eleven! :)

Just a few things I have thought about this topic:
1. If there is a God, he/she probably couldn't care less if you believe in her/him or not.
2. Something in almost all of us yearns for what might be termed "spiritual certainty."
3. Prayer really does change things. This has been scientifically verfied ... repeatedly.
4. Uniformity of belief is excellent social glue.
5. Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle applies to virtually everything.
6. There is conflict between evolution and Christianity only if you accept that the Genesis account is to be taken literally.
Film at eleven! :)
1. He created us out of love, if you love something you certainly care about it.
2. not familiar with it, but I can understand where you're coming from, I want back the love I once had, and believe that God will deliver our hearts desires.(that's scriptural)
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. Not familiar with this, please explain
6. Agreed, or did God perhaps create us with the capacity to grow, evolve, and adapt? Probably.

This was way to broad of a question. Is there any single defining principle to sum up the message of the muslim faith. Ex. Christianity is often primarily identified with the message of John 3:11 "For God so loved the world that he gave unto it His only begotten Son, and all who believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Is there anything that you could use to explain the muslim faith in a similar fashion?
I probably shouldn't nitpick, but it's actually John 3:16.
But yes, there's a reason why that verse has been translated into more languages than any other. It's the best summary we have.

I probably shouldn't nitpick, but it's actually John 3:16.
But yes, there's a reason why that verse has been translated into more languages than any other. It's the best summary we have.
oops. I understand not wanting to nitpick, but misquoting scripture isn't cool.

I'm not saying that hurting someone is not wrong. I'm not saying that slaughtering entire groups of people is not wrong. I'm saying I just can't condemn someone else's specific God/religion. It may be right for them. That's all I'm trying to say.

I've got no problem with claiming that someone's actions are wrong, as long as they are being unfair in some way to another living being.

Listen, babe, I don't mean to be offensive, but if you're going to try and deradicalize my argument, then I'm just going to have to radicalize it again. All over your face.

For the sake of mutual accomodation, you have diluted your belief to the point where you no longer believe in anything. I would like to say that agnostics, Unitarian Universalists, Wiccans, etc. are actually just nihilists, but I think that would be too kind. You are all bourgeois pigs.

oops. I understand not wanting to nitpick, but misquoting scripture isn't cool.
No worries, Ghannas! I once said in a post that God was an existentialist, when I was really tired, but I retracted it when the person I was talking with pointed out my error.
BTW, what does "Ghannas Desh" mean?

Listen, babe, I don't mean to be offensive, but if you're going to try and deradicalize my argument, then I'm just going to have to radicalize it again. All over your face.

For the sake of mutual accomodation, you have diluted your belief to the point where you no longer believe in anything. I would like to say that agnostics, Unitarian Universalists, Wiccans, etc. are actually just nihilists, but I think that would be too kind. You are all bourgeois pigs.
If you don't intend to be offensive, then don't be offensive. Think of some other way to say it.

You are all bourgeois pigs.
Some might call this flaming. I might be one of them. Maybe you could express yourself radically without generalised and fairly irrelevant insults?

No worries, Ghannas! I once said in a post that God was an existentialist, when I was really tired, but I retracted it when the person I was talking with pointed out my error.
BTW, what does "Ghannas Desh" mean?
Nothing, I made it up. The whole name is "The Holy Republic of Ghannas Desh" just thought it sounded cool.

Nothing, I made it up. The whole name is "The Holy Republic of Ghannas Desh" just thought it sounded cool.
That's cool. My whole name is "The Colony of FutureExistence", because that's what the church is supposed to be, an example of a community focused on God, pointing to a time when all creation will be focused on God.

That's cool. My whole name is "The Colony of FutureExistence", because that's what the church is supposed to be, an example of a community focused on God, pointing to a time when all creation will be focused on God.
shame it isn't eh?

Apparently rude dude isn't getting my point. It's fine to disagree with something. It's not fine to go around TELLING other people that they are wrong. (Is that a better way of wording it?)

shame it isn't eh?
Let's get on and do something about it then, shall we?
See the Michael Jackson song, "Man in the Mirror", for details.

It's impossible to force God on someone.

No, it's not. To demonstrate:

"There is a god"

"No there isn't"

*WHACK*

"There is a god"

"No there isn't"

*BONEBREAK*

etc, etc.. repeat a few times over weeks. Then, when the person says that yes there is a god, simply to get rid of the pain, smack them around a little again because they don't really believe it. Continue the assault.

After a few months, I reckon you'll have a perfectly conditioned believer.

"No formalities"
"No labels"
"Seek Peace"
"Stay away from politics"
Love one another, understand one another and accept one another.
Everything you do is voluntarily out of good will and good expectations.
No such thing as being forced to do something you do not want to do. Absolute Full Faith Freedom by the Grace of God
All Capable of accepting guidance from the truth in life
Give more than you recieve
Believe in yourself, Doubt in yourself never, doubt in others rarely, dont dwell on things, Good or Bad because one creates over confidence while the other creates pity, both become self defeating.
Do what you love
Follow your heart
Seek grace
Be fearless
Volunteer time
Understand more and judge much less
Question conformity and anyone that calls them or their friends an authority over you and our life. Search out the truth from those that are wise (all of us have wisdom).
Have a sense of humor
Be real by being yourself
Enjoy every breath you take, it is the one thing that actually matters when you run out of them in the end. They say you should save the best for last, so make sure you go out with a bang, seeking to experience every bit of life's fantasies (greatest expectations: LIVE) by making them a reality.
Our feelings are a part of our instincts, do your best to be who you really are: show them true.
Help the helpless

"No formalities"
"No labels"
"Seek Peace"
"Stay away from politics"
Love one another, understand one another and accept one another.
Everything you do is voluntarily out of good will and good expectations.
No such thing as being forced to do something you do not want to do. Absolute Full Faith Freedom by the Grace of God
All Capable of accepting guidance from the truth in life
Give more than you recieve
Believe in yourself, Doubt in yourself never, doubt in others rarely, dont dwell on things, Good or Bad because one creates over confidence while the other creates pity, both become self defeating.
Do what you love
Follow your heart
Seek grace
Be fearless
Volunteer time
Understand more and judge much less
Question conformity and anyone that calls them or their friends an authority over you and our life.
Have a sense of humor
Be real by being yourself
Enjoy every breath you take, it is the one thing that actually matters when you run out of them in the end. They say you should save the best for last, so make sure you go out with a bang, seeking to experience every bit of life's fantasies (greatest expectations: LIVE) by making them a reality.
Help the helpless
This is a pretty good list, but I have some reservations.
I think God wants me to go into politics. So, for me, bad idea to stay away.
I should definitely doubt myself sometimes, because I'm not yet as I should be. See also the following of my heart. See also being myself. Similarly, I should sometimes doubt others, cause they're in the same imperfection boat as I am.
I want to conform to God, and I'm learning to accept the direction of others (selectively) to help me do so.
Otherwise, rock on!

No, it's not. To demonstrate:

"There is a god"

"No there isn't"

*WHACK*

"There is a god"

"No there isn't"

*BONEBREAK*

etc, etc.. repeat a few times over weeks. Then, when the person says that yes there is a god, simply to get rid of the pain, smack them around a little again because they don't really believe it. Continue the assault.

After a few months, I reckon you'll have a perfectly conditioned believer.
Yes, but God wants us to come to Him of our own free will. This manner of "conditioning" only defeats us in the end, and something similar to this is why Christianity has such a bad reputation.

This is a pretty good list, but I have some reservations.
I think God wants me to go into politics. So, for me, bad idea to stay away.
I should definitely doubt myself sometimes, because I'm not yet as I should be. See also the following of my heart. See also being myself. Similarly, I should sometimes doubt others, cause they're in the same imperfection boat as I am.
I want to conform to God, and I'm learning to accept the direction of others (selectively) to help me do so.
Otherwise, rock on!
Here here! except that I'm a musician and a romantic, not a politician.

Some might call this flaming. I might be one of them. Maybe you could express yourself radically without generalised and fairly irrelevant insults?

I'm sorry for being offensive. I spoke inappropriately and disrespectfully. I sincerely apologize.

The insult may be generalized but it is not irelevant. The bourgeoisie, by nature and definition, destroy all traditional systems of belief and practice and replace them with consumerism. My argument is that wishy-washy "religious" practices such as UU, agnosticism, and Wicca are just as detrimental to culture as TV, Wal-Mart and McDonald's. I understand that this is all based on my personal prejudice against agnostics, UU's, and Wiccans (as well as Reform Jews, Conservative Jews, Televangelists, and others).

If people come up with thought-systems where no idea can ever be incorrect, how are they going to learn that their ideas are incorrect if someone does not tell them? Free Speech does not stop at everyone having a right to there opinion, it also gives everyone the right to say that that person's opinion is wrong (yes, opinions can be, and usually are, wrong). I am not forcing AFS to stop practicing Wicca, I'm just saying that, in my opinion, her opinion is wrong. And that is something which I have every right to do.

This was way to broad of a question. Is there any single defining principle to sum up the message of the muslim faith. Ex. Christianity is often primarily identified with the message of John 3:11 "For God so loved the world that he gave unto it His only begotten Son, and all who believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Is there anything that you could use to explain the muslim faith in a similar fashion?

Oh! Yeah ... there is a single unifier. It's called the shahadah. "I testify that there is no god but Allah and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah."

It's the first of the 5 pillars of Islam.

I'm sorry for being offensive. I spoke inappropriately and disrespectfully. I sincerely apologize.

The insult may be generalized but it is not irelevant. The bourgeoisie, by nature and definition, destroy all traditional systems of belief and practice and replace them with consumerism. My argument is that wishy-washy "religious" practices such as UU, agnosticism, and Wicca are just as detrimental to culture as TV, Wal-Mart and McDonald's. I understand that this is all based on my personal prejudice against agnostics, UU's, and Wiccans (as well as Reform Jews, Conservative Jews, Televangelists, and others).

If people come up with thought-systems where no idea can ever be incorrect, how are they going to learn that their ideas are incorrect if someone does not tell them? Free Speech does not stop at everyone having a right to there opinion, it also gives everyone the right to say that that person's opinion is wrong (yes, opinions can be, and usually are, wrong). I am not forcing AFS to stop practicing Wicca, I'm just saying that, in my opinion, her opinion is wrong. And that is something which I have every right to do.
Not many people apologise on NS. Kudos to you.
I accept your point about the bourgeoisie. And I also believe in the existence of absolute truth that is not determined by whether anyone believes in it or not. My comment was aimed towards the "pigs" part, but I suppose I could accept "bourgeois pigs" as a literary reference, if I knew who coined the phrase.
What's UU?

Oh! Yeah ... there is a single unifier. It's called the shahadah. "I testify that there is no god but Allah and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah."

It's the first of the 5 pillars of Islam.
What are the other four?

What are the other four?

2] Salat (prayer)
The performance of the five daily prayers required of Muslims. These prayers are al-Fajr (dawn), al-Zuhr (morning), al-Asr (midday), al-Maghrib (afternoon), and al-Isha (evening). A Muslim may perform these prayers at home, but it is preferred that they be done at Mosque.

3] Saum (fasting)
Along with salat, another important form of worship is fasting. It is obligatory for each Muslim, apart from some exemptions, to fast in the month of Ramadhan. During the hours of fasting, food and drink and conjugal relations between husband and wife are forbidden. It is enjoined that during fasting one should pay attention to remembrance of Allah and study the Holy Quran in abundance. One should try to curtail one's worldly pastimes as much as possible during Ramadhan, and to be particularly inclined towards charity and alms giving.

4] Zakat (charity)
Zakat is a part of devotion enjoined upon Muslims by the Holy Quran. It is a means where the well-off pay a set amount of their wealth. Zakat means to purify oneself. It is obligatory on Muslims to pay a little percentage of their accumulated wealth towards Zakat, which is used for the benefit of the needy and the poor. Zakat is not levied on one's property that is in personal use, rather on the assets which have a means of increasing and which are surplus to one's needs. It is a means of social justice and order. It teaches sympathy of the highest order.

5] Hajj (pilgrimage)
Hajj is an annual pilgrimage to the holy sites in Mecca which each adult Muslim, who can afford it, has to perform once in life time. Apart from the financial aspect, the ability to afford the pilgrimage also means that one is able to travel and perform the Hajj in peace. Muslims perform Hajj in order to visit for themselves the holy sites where their faith started. More importantly it is a pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, which we believe is the first place of worship ever built on this earth, Muslims thus refer to it as House of Allah.

I'm sorry for being offensive. I spoke inappropriately and disrespectfully. I sincerely apologize.

The insult may be generalized but it is not irelevant. The bourgeoisie, by nature and definition, destroy all traditional systems of belief and practice and replace them with consumerism. My argument is that wishy-washy "religious" practices such as UU, agnosticism, and Wicca are just as detrimental to culture as TV, Wal-Mart and McDonald's. I understand that this is all based on my personal prejudice against agnostics, UU's, and Wiccans (as well as Reform Jews, Conservative Jews, Televangelists, and others).

If people come up with thought-systems where no idea can ever be incorrect, how are they going to learn that their ideas are incorrect if someone does not tell them? Free Speech does not stop at everyone having a right to there opinion, it also gives everyone the right to say that that person's opinion is wrong (yes, opinions can be, and usually are, wrong). I am not forcing AFS to stop practicing Wicca, I'm just saying that, in my opinion, her opinion is wrong. And that is something which I have every right to do.
At least you're fessing up to your biased. I do that to. I hate racists.

5] Hajj (pilgrimage)
Hajj is an annual pilgrimage to the holy sites in Mecca which each adult Muslim, who can afford it, has to perform once in life time. Apart from the financial aspect, the ability to afford the pilgrimage also means that one is able to travel and perform the Hajj in peace. Muslims perform Hajj in order to visit for themselves the holy sites where their faith started. More importantly it is a pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, which we believe is the first place of worship ever built on this earth, Muslims thus refer to it as House of Allah.

When you say first place of worship, do you mean first for muslims? Or do you mean that it is believed to be the first place of worship ever, including all faiths?

(I'm sorry if I'm not phrasing this well.)

I suppose I could accept "bourgeois pigs" as a literary reference, if I knew who coined the phrase.

That's a good question and I don't know.

What's UU?

Unitarian Universalism, the religion in which I was raised. It is a combination of Unitarianism which basically just does not believe in the Trinity, and Universalism (which I don't think was ever actually a seperate religion) which basically says that all religions are the same.

lesse if i can sum up my religious beliefs, Jesus is bunk. sorry, great guy but to say that by virtue of faith i can be absolved of evil shit that i do...thats just irresponsible and lazy, i respect Islam becuase, despite the crazy ones and the nation of islam here in america, theyre purdy moderate and downright intellectual...i love the jews, theyre so scrutinous...and as for myself. I believe in reincarnation 100%, this earth is too beautiful and terrible to live in only once, and as for the berating of "wishy washy" belief systems, i cant stand that.


A great man once said that there are as many paths to paradise as there are people. Therefore nobody can be wrong. Think about it, these elitist religions that claim superiority are right, for all intents and purposes, as long as they dont come into contact with other people, (or when they do, they can kill them swiftly and deftly). This worked in ancient times when religious groups rarely saw other religious groups. Now that we are (no matter what you say) in a global forum (no more isolationists...) we cant earnestly cling onto the belief that you are right and everyone is wrong, and the people who do make unnecessary conflict. Times change and people change too, eventually, what were feeling now is spiritual growing pains.




i apologize for rambling

Unitarian Universalism, the religion in which I was raised. It is a combination of Unitarianism which basically just does not believe in the Trinity, and Universalism (which I don't think was ever actually a seperate religion) which basically says that all religions are the same.
Sounds a bit like Baha'i.
Relativism doesn't make any more sense when you put it in religious clothing.

lesse if i can sum up my religious beliefs, Jesus is bunk. sorry, great guy but to say that by virtue of faith i can be absolved of evil shit that i do...thats just irresponsible and lazy, i respect Islam becuase, despite the crazy ones and the nation of islam here in america, theyre purdy moderate and downright intellectual...i love the jews, theyre so scrutinous...and as for myself. I believe in reincarnation 100%, this earth is too beautiful and terrible to live in only once, and as for the berating of "wishy washy" belief systems, i cant stand that.

I agree with you completely about Christianity being an irresponsible religion. I don't think that anyone who actually has faith can have a "wishy-washy belief system"; what I think I'm calling wishy-washy is joining a 'religion' or 'philosophy' to justify yourself for not having any actual beliefs. There is a difference between being open-minded and being lazy. I think what is wishy-washy is people feeling that they have to somehow make their relationship with God official by attaching themselves to some predetermined belief-system.

The Buddha said that he could not teach enlightenment, every person has to find it for his or her self. In Thailand people feel that trying too hard to reach Nirvana is bad karma. I don't know what these little tidbits have to do with anything, but they seem important...

Now that we are in a global forum it is more important then ever to try and define right and wrong. It is okay to be wrong as long as you keep working to be right. Remeber, you can always change your mind.

When you say first place of worship, do you mean first for muslims? Or do you mean that it is believed to be the first place of worship ever, including all faiths?

(I'm sorry if I'm not phrasing this well.)

We believe Abraham built it. We believe it is the first place of worship built for the god of Abraham, Allah. Obviously there were other temples to other gods built before then. :)

We believe Abraham built it. We believe it is the first place of worship built for the god of Abraham, Allah. Obviously there were other temples to other gods built before then. :)
In the Torah, he is also refered to as Jehova, Elohiem, and Yhwhy. Yes, Muhammad probably was His prophet. more His place to say than mine

Being agnostic my ideas in the way of religion simplify easily (though can easily get in depth)
We don’t know
It boils down to that
Blind faith was never my thing. And creating fiction to make myself feel better does not appeal to me (that’s why I would have to know it is NOT fiction … or mostly anyways)
Don’t believe in organized religion myself … I have a feeling if I “Find god” it wont be through any formal religion constructs currently in place.
I am leaving my mind open while being skeptical at the same time.
Hey, a kindred spirit! If you believe in that kind of thing...=o)

Some fellow Christians will agree with me but, I hate it when ppl on the forum try to prove the Bible false or the existance of God by taking some verse from the Old Testament which is harder to understand and make it seem as if it is nonsense. They should really get a grip and stop poking at religions parts where it is harder to understand.

Sounds a bit like Baha'i.
Relativism doesn't make any more sense when you put it in religious clothing.
The Baha'i Faith does not state that all religions are the same. It does teach that they all come from the same source... God. And that they have identical spiritual teachings and different social teachings to meet the changing social conditions of humanity. The concept is call Progresive Revelation as religion is revealed through Messengers or Prophets of God. Each Messenger revealing what humankind is able to understand in that paticular age.

:headbang:

I simply want to explode when I hear any strong christians (or republicans, which are generally strong christians) speak, because all that comes out of their mouth is complete dribble with absolutely no evidence to support it.


Here are my points as to why God doesn't exist and the Bible's a lying book:

I completely subscribe to the theory that religion is a crutch to keep human beings from feeling alone. It's a bunch of crap that greedy people made in order to control the populous without any resistance (in the earlier times). It allows people with absolutely no power to declare themselves saints and 'the hand of god' with no real proof except, what they say, to control the masses. From an early age, in a christian house, we are raised to believe in God without question, a good reference is made in Dogma, although we have absolutely no proof and we really just follow it because we're stupid kids who are, normally, done as we are told. So where's our proof? Why work for heaven when there's no proof and no earthly reward??

Also, though there are SOME historical references in the Bible, nothing that happened in it seems to have been true. Adam and Eve, for instance, is completely untrue in every way, evolution (supported grandly) has disproven it. The flood- where's the proof of that?? Moses is a storyteller's weaving. Jesus, well any crackpot could claim themselves a savior. The devil - used to keep us in constant fear of 'misbehaving' and suffering for all enternity (which I'll go into further later). Many ancient pagan or simply non-christian symbols and customs have been twisted by the church as symbols of the devil in order to prevent further pagan conversions and 'herd more sheep into the pen'.

That's another interesting fact. The comparrison to sheep that followers of God gain. Why are we sheep?? Is it because we're dumb and follow blindly only because the sheperd's stick is at out asses if we don't??

Now the heaven and hell thing. WHAT??? That doesn't make sense!! Angels?? COME ON PEOPLE!! WAKE UP!! There is no such thing. No proof anywhere!! PROVE IT CHRISTIANS, PROVE IT! And why would we suffer eternal damnation for having a child before marriage (and why does that child suffer too?? I ask this as a 'bastard' child.), having a gay relationship :fluffle: , and generally doing anything 'forbidden'?? Should we not enjoy ourselves whilst we still live?

So called 'miracles' are a load too. Coincidences. There's no proof ANYTHING happens because god decrees it. And if there is such a thing, why is there still tremendous suffering and injustice in the world?

Another thing to ask yourselves is, if our one God is the only diety who will lead us to 'salvation', then WHY are there other religions that are so passionately followed?? If there is one supreme god, then how come there are many?

I shall also bring up Religion and War: friends or enemies? FRIENDS. So many vile deeds are done in the name of God that it's almost sickening to think of. The Crusades, for instance. Utterly religious. A pointless waste of life. Fighting over the holy land. This also goes for the iraq war. Bush calls them terrorists, haters of freedom, yet we had no reason to invade other than Bush's own will and his apparent support of God. And the Christian backing off in WWII? Explain, my friends, explain.

Last, there is the religious racism and descrimination. The KKK, a strong white christianb group, that acts against other races. WHAT THE HELL?! Hello ppl! Look around you! Christians are old fashioned and blatantly object to change that doesn't benefit them (or in some cases, 'the general good' which is completely a lie).

IF YOU THINK I'M WRONG THEN REPLY AND PROVE ME WRONG, IF YOU CAN!!


P.S. I'm not saying that christianity pretends to teach peace and love, it has in the past, but at the moment it teaches fierce defense of old fashioned ways

^Well, for starters, if your asking any Christian to simply prove that everything you've criticized false to be true, it cannot be done. All those stories of Jesus, saints, God, and such and such have to be visualized and interpretted in non-literal ways in order to get the meanings behind them.
Plus, from my side as a Christian, one has to have a little faith in beliefs of God, heaven, angels and so on in order for them to exist in one's mind and heart at least.

You see Chizzilla, beliefs such as what is in the Bible and other holy books cannot be proven right or wrong based on logic or scientific facts. Religion is about spiritual realities which is something that differs from mental and physical realities of the mind and of the earth, universe, what have you.
To me, God, Jesus, angels, are real to me and therefore exist to me. Nothing else matters. That is because I have faith that they do exist based on spiritual level. To you, none of that exists because you choose not to believe so therefore, they do not exist to you and nothing can change that.

Mind you there is a lot of crap going on within my faith I certaintly do not approve of like fundamentalism, old traditions involving that of keeping a woman's station inferior, Satan, etc. But that doesn't mean any Chrisitian has to follow them because they are told to, any religious person has to experience their faith in their own manner to get the true meaning behind it regardless of what other people may say.

We can argue back and forth of what exists and what doesn't using any means neccessary but that would accomplish nothing in the end. Proving what is right or wrong in religions is irrelevant because it revolves around faith which skips logic and facts. You can conclude however that in this case, the Bible to you is false because you have no faith in it, so it is true in that view. To me, the Bible is true in a way that involves different perceptions because of my faith in it, so it is true in that view as well.

That's my thought anyways so if you'd like to make a point or if anyone else does, fire away.

Good point, I'm sorry I went so crazy, I had a lot of energy to pour into something and I'd been reading the Da Vinci code :p

Another thing to ask yourselves is, if our one God is the only diety who will lead us to 'salvation', then WHY are there other religions that are so passionately followed?? If there is one supreme god, then how come there are many?

Dear Chizzilla,

I think you have hit one the real issue here in all of religious history. If a person is ill and visits a physician and asks for assistance and then ignores that advise--is it fair to blame the physician? When God sends Messengers to his creatures and they reject the message should we blame God? Baha'u'llah teaches that there is only one religion--the religion of God. Christ, Moses, Mohammed and others were all sent by God. Man has decided that they are in oppisition to each other not God.