NationStates Jolt Archive

Last days, we saw a lot of new evidence about the torturing of people in US hands, specially those in Guantanamo and Iraq and have questions about the fate of lots of jailed muslims in the main US after 9/11. People that don't have the right to fall under the Geneva convention (according the US, not according the civilised world and the coventions signed by the US itself).

Lots of muslims are still in jail in the US after 9/11, just because they are muslim. There is no western state in wich so much muslims are kept in jail because of their believes and seen as terrorist because of their believes. Those people still have no right to see a advocate (wich is against international law and the US constitution).

The torturing of political prisonars in Guantanamo, Afghanistan and Iraq still continues (like we all know but are to affraid to discuss in the US).
All this is shamefull for a nation that had once (upon a time) a tradition of democratic rules and a role in WWII on witch it can be proud (forget WWI, some ignorants on NS think that it is the same but they are to stupid to discuss "Kaiserslacht"). But now we see this great nation acting like the political systems that it fought long ago. A small minority in charge that abolishes all intern and international laws.

One of the worst things are those youngsters (the "future"!) that behave like real nazi's in the way that they denie each fact, or worse, only think that those cases are isolated ones... like they lack the vission to be critic about the crimes of their own in general (or in the past), something seldom seen amongst other western states now.

Those deniers, like we often see on NS by a small minority of extremists, admit at max. the last facts of torture and have the guts to say that "it is only this fact"....until the next, in wich they repeate the old denieing that the torturing is not generaly spread and denie that this Bush regime is not better then any of the regimes it fought in the past (the soviet dictatures) or supported (the Pinochet, Argentina aso dictatures).In fact those Etru.a's; WWII Counc. O. Cl. on NS and other are a minority of extreme fanatics, some people say "Jezuslandfools" or CRWN's.
Fact is that those are irelivant when people match them with the moderate Joe, Bill, José aso. that want to take take care for their own in a peacefull world in wich their nation does not oppress the world and want a cleaner, more enviromental friendly world just like their latest real elected politicians worked together with the civilised and sientific world.

What went wrong, how is this once great nation becoming the ennemy of its former friends and the rest of the world, how is this this nation turning in to the orgasme of 4th Reich like old Nazi's and other 3th Reich nostalgists :
inside destruction of everything that does not make the rich even more rich; most people getting even more poor; a dying middleclass that pays for the rich; support of new Stalins like Putin; wars for oilmoney; wars that kill more civilians then in the last 10 years and only benefit some guys in the giverment and there conglomerates; torturing that is excused as isolated while every NCO and other govs say that (and prooves) that it is widespread...aso aso aso..Ok this can be black and white but it is like most Americans feel (not even speaking about the rest of the mostly unkown world for Americans).

What is wrong? Are we getting stupid in the west? What is wrong with the Nato partners that allways were very happy when they asked for more attention to human rights towards the commie states in the old days and were happy when the the US did the same or started it. Nowadays, those allies have the moral obligation (like we all know) to ask the same questions at their "friend" that fell down to a Ayatollah Khomeiny levell: respect for human rights...

But they are so bussy with themselves and the making of a big market. A big market in wich they even let in the influence of the old allie/new enemy: the US that does everything to destroy a political EU (Turkey, Polland and other out of the US hand eater cappo states) in wich the real heroes; nations that want a pollitical EU and have the guts to say no towards this old friend when this old friend acts like the old fascist enemy, are sabotaged and shouted at by this US regime. (but still seen as the right guys by the majority of the world).

Why can the US get away with things that it condems towards other nations? Terrorisme?
No, when you believe that, please read something and stay out of the discussion, because the US blaimed almost every country (exept the right wing Latin Condor regimes) in the past for this when it fitted the US.

Please don't flame and don't wury bout the log in name, it was open and like the fact show us, close to the truth.

I'd like to point out that while I don't like these activities, I'm sure that other countries have it going on but the media just doesn't report it.

I'd like to point out that while I don't like these activities, I'm sure that other countries have it going on but the media just doesn't report it.

You're wright when it comes on a lot of nations but:
You think that the US media is the most free or the most critical?

Thank you for the reaction but I know both worlds in the west since long and am affraid to say that the media in the EU is more informative and more open, they say everything, from the collonial time genocides over the time that the US businessmen abroad brought the free and real vietnam uncencured news towards the US till the crissises now. It is way open and I see more there then I see things that are even untold on CCN or NBC.

My two international cents.

Those deniers, like we often see on NS by a small minority of extremists, admit at max. the last facts of torture and have the guts to say that "it is only this fact"....until the next, in wich they repeate the old denieing that the torturing is not generaly spread and denie that this Bush regime is not better then any of the regimes it fought in the past (the soviet dictatures) or supported (the Pinochet, Argentina aso dictatures).In fact those Etru.a's; WWII Counc. O. Cl. on NS and other are a minority of extreme fanatics, some people say "Jezuslandfools" or CRWN's. .

People like Etrusca and his pall are just a verry small bunch of extremists here and are seen like that. Remember that our great nation shall overcome those crimes and come back as a real allie (with another gov. of course). Most of us are against this, I never talked in NYC to one that is making excuses for it. :fluffle:

bump

Ok Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, Joan Baize, etc, etc. Let’s give the terrorists hope and the will to kill more allied military and innocent civilians. :headbang:

Why is it only OK for the US to torture? Because the US is the only superpower, and as such if anyone show them the finger, the US has the power to stick that finger up the country's ass.

Why is it only OK for the US to torture? Because the US is the only superpower, and as such if anyone show them the finger, the US has the power to stick that finger up the country's ass.

So might makes right?

Ok Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, Joan Baize, etc, etc. Let’s give the terrorists hope and the will to kill more allied military and innocent civilians. :headbang:

That is bullshit and has nothing to do with the original post, you troll.

In wars, people get hurt. Some people get tortured. And some people die. Some are lucky enough just to be imprisoned.

All wars, not just this one. And you can't have a war without some of this happenning, whether you try hard to prevent it, or order it, or something in-between.

On the subject of who (if anyone) should be permitted to torture, and under what (if any) conditions, should torture be allowed, I propose that you answer the following example:

Your team has just captured an Al-Qaeda terrorist team (five people). In their apartment, you find machined bits of plutonium, scraps of plastic explosives, machined bits of beryllium, wires, etc. You also find detailed plans for an atomic weapon. The bomb experts on your team tell you that it is extremely likely that these people have assembled an atomic weapon, but that it is not on the premises. They also say that if it's far enough inside one of the city's skyscrapers, they're not going to be able to detect it from the outside using neutron detectors.

One of the terrorists speaks up to say one thing:

"You have 60 minutes before it goes off".

Would you torture them for information on the location of the bomb? Or would you do nothing? What level of torture would you permit?

Um no, THERE ARE NO CONNECTIONS BETWEEN AL QUADA (look im too lazy to look it up) AND IRAQ!!! IF YOU READ ANYTHING NOT FROM A CONSERVATIVE BIASED MEDIA YOU WILL KNOW THAT! We are not in iraq for terrorists. Bush planned this war way before 9/11 Terrorists are in afghanistan, we arent. We are in iraq, and the whole in iraq is a huge lie. Think about, first we went in due to ties with osama bin laden. Guess what? there werent any! then we went in because of weapons of mass destruction. Guess what? NONE OF THOSE EITHER. SO then we went in to "free" the people from saddam. Hes captured, but WERE STILL THERE.

This isn't the US this is one dictator and his cabinet taking advantage of the US presidency and peoples ignorance.

Its because of Bush, people who vote for him have no idea what they're doing. They only watch fox and therefore have distorted views of whats going on. (watch "Outfoxed" a movie about rupert murdoch's war on journalism) People who watch fox are actually LESS informed then in if they had not watched fox news at all because it gives people distorted views. Im so tired of these threads. WE GET IT WERE A BUNCH OF JERKS NOW WE KNOW WHATS GOING ON IN IRAQ STOP MAKING THESE STUPID THREADS!!!! :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: DIE DIE DIE THREAD! :headbang:

Um no, THERE ARE NO CONNECTIONS BETWEEN AL QUADA (look im too lazy to look it up) AND IRAQ!!! IF YOU READ ANYTHING NOT FROM A CONSERVATIVE BIASED MEDIA YOU WILL KNOW THAT! We are not in iraq for terrorists. Bush planned this war way before 9/11 Terrorists are in afghanistan, we arent. We are in iraq, and the whole in iraq is a huge lie. Think about, first we went in due to ties with osama bin laden. Guess what? there werent any! then we went in because of weapons of mass destruction. Guess what? NONE OF THOSE EITHER. SO then we went in to "free" the people from saddam. Hes captured, but WERE STILL THERE.

This isn't the US this is one dictator and his cabinet taking advantage of the US presidency and peoples ignorance.

Its because of Bush, people who vote for him have no idea what they're doing. They only watch fox and therefore have distorted views of whats going on. (watch "Outfoxed" a movie about rupert murdoch's war on journalism) People who watch fox are actually LESS informed then in if they had not watched fox news at all because it gives people distorted views. Im so tired of these threads. WE GET IT WERE A BUNCH OF JERKS NOW WE KNOW WHATS GOING ON IN IRAQ STOP MAKING THESE STUPID THREADS!!!! :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: DIE DIE DIE THREAD! :headbang:

You are quite the ignoramous. I said HYPOTHETICAL situation where you might want to consider torture as a possibility. HYPOTHETICAL.

And the HYPOTHETICAL situation involved Al-Qaeda and a nuclear weapon.

HYPOTHETICAL. HYPOTHETICAL.

We're talking on this thread about whether or not torture is OK to use, and if so, under what circumstances.

Your team has just captured an Al-Qaeda terrorist team (five people).The bomb experts on your team tell you that it is extremely likely that these people have assembled an atomic weapon, but that it is not on the premises.

Would you torture them for information on the location of the bomb? Or would you do nothing? What level of torture would you permit?


I smell My Gun Not Yours.

Anyway, it's an entirely laughable notion. Dr. Imad Khadduri, a key Iraqi nuclear scientist who worked for Iraq’s nuclear program until 1998, went to terrific lengths to try to counter official US misinformation re: Iraq's nuclear program...basically, there WAS no Iraqi nuclear program post-1991. Most of the researchers were killed in '91, and Iraq had no funds to rebuild the reactors destroyed in bombing runs.

So no, I wouldn't torture anyone for the simple reason that this entire 'example' is an utter load of BS - there's no pocket-sized nukes being cranked out by five-man teams in apartment blocks. There are no Iraqi atomic engineers with access to those materials in Baghdad. There's just a whole helluva lot of bad info floating around unchallenged, armchair quarterbacking, and more paranoia than you'd find at your average Klan meeting.

Over to you, Gun.

It's not OK for the US to use torture. If you would pay attention you would see that there are courts martial being held for those suspected of torturing prisoners. The US and it's people don't condone torture. As for people being held in Guantanamo bay just for being muslim, that's bull. In fact, they were captured in Afghanistan while they fought on behalf of the Taliban and Al Quada. A large number of those released so far have gone back to working for violent islamist organizations. They aren't locked up for their religion, but because they are a threat to the USA.

You are quite the ignoramous. I said HYPOTHETICAL situation where you might want to consider torture as a possibility. HYPOTHETICAL.

And the HYPOTHETICAL situation involved Al-Qaeda and a nuclear weapon.

HYPOTHETICAL. HYPOTHETICAL.

We're talking on this thread about whether or not torture is OK to use, and if so, under what circumstances.
Never. You hear me never! While you seem to be okay with being as bad as Al-Queda (if you permit torture), but I don't.
I want to keep the higher ground and never become the enemy. Because once you fight like the enemy to beat them...you are worse than them.

So no one would ever entertain the so-called "ticking time bomb" scenario used by so many academics to discuss the possible rationale for torture?

You would rather just not discuss it? Or do you not know what "hypothetical" means?

So no one would ever entertain the so-called "ticking time bomb" scenario used by so many academics to discuss the possible rationale for torture?

You would rather just not discuss it? Or do you not know what "hypothetical" means?

I do know what 'hypothetical' means - do you know what 'skewing results' means? You, and Gun, seem to be fond of creating 'What If' scenarios that are designed to result in one possible outcome, or one of a series of limited outcomes. Life isn't like that, unless you live in a Tom Clancy novel.

Like Isaid, there's no pocket nukes in Baghdad - your example is malarky.

Why is it only OK for the US to torture?

Because they're the Good Guys[tm] silly. Really, they are. Fox says so, so it must be true !

Though you ask a legitimate question that should have long ago been answered, it seems- at least, to me- that you're making claims in order to bolster your arguments while holding no truth. I am referring to two quotes of yours:

1. "Lots of muslims are still in jail in the US after 9/11, just because they are muslim."

Do you KNOW that for a fact? Or is that just inference?

2. "Thank you for the reaction but I know both worlds in the west since long and am affraid to say that the media in the EU is more informative and more open, they say everything..."

Again, how would you know if media sources in the EU were witholding information such as the location, prisoners, and nature of treatment of those prisoners in a top-secret prison? Granted, this is a bit extreme, but on the other hand, in the event that there is indeed a second Guatnamo controlled by the EU, what are the odds that the EU would want Europe to know all about it?

Prove me wrong- throw me a few media sources here!

I do know what 'hypothetical' means - do you know what 'skewing results' means? You, and Gun, seem to be fond of creating 'What If' scenarios that are designed to result in one possible outcome, or one of a series of limited outcomes. Life isn't like that, unless you live in a Tom Clancy novel.

Like Isaid, there's no pocket nukes in Baghdad - your example is malarky.

Alright then. Are there any potential situations in which you would use torture? The Israelis have evidently run into more than one "ticking time bomb" scenario that was Not Malarky, and the torture worked. Not that they haven't also tortured people just to do it.

But are there any situations which you could identify as plausible reasons to torture?

Alright then. Are there any potential situations in which you would use torture? The Israelis have evidently run into more than one "ticking time bomb" scenario that was Not Malarky, and the torture worked. Not that they haven't also tortured people just to do it.

But are there any situations which you could identify as plausible reasons to torture?

No.

There are no situations which I could identify as plausible reasons for torture.

Surprise!

No.

There are no situations which I could identify as plausible reasons for torture.

Surprise!

Then why do you single out the US about torture? Surely many other nations do it? What nation are you from?

Then why do you single out the US about torture? Surely many other nations do it? What nation are you from?
The United States is supposed to be better than other countries...surprise!

Please don't flame and don't wury bout the log in name, it was open and like the fact show us, close to the truth.
Sorry, your name says all anyone needs to know about you. Trite partisanship fits in well around here. That is bullshit and has nothing to do with the original post, you troll.Your posts is bullshit, and you have a lot of nerve calling others troll.

The United States is supposed to be better than other countries...surprise!

Hmm. So I guess that the US shouldn't have said during WW II that it was better than Germany, and left Europe to whatever fate would have dictated.

I'll keep that in mind.

Hmm. So I guess that the US shouldn't have said during WW II that it was better than Germany, and left Europe to whatever fate would have dictated.

I'll keep that in mind.
No because we didn't torture Germany. Defending another contry and torturing a country are two different events.

Your Hoc statements won't work here, Sith. Some of us are immune to your jedi mind tricks.

Then why do you single out the US about torture? Surely many other nations do it? What nation are you from?

I single out the US because until Shrub, America stood head and shoulders above most other nations on such things as human rights. Four years of dog kennels, kangaroo courts, and outright torture have stripped away your crowing rights.

More nations torture than ever before, thanks to the sterling example set by Shrub and his gang of thugs. 'If America can thumb it's nose to the Rule of Law, then why can't I', say the tinpot dictators.

What do you care what nation I'm from? If I'm not American, I'm most likely a terrorist, or a drug czar, a pedophile, or French. And even if I was an American, I'm not *really* an American if I didn't vote for Shrub, right?

Maybe you should torture me to establish my identity. Let's try THAT scenario.

No because we didn't torture Germany. Defending another contry and torturing a country are two different events.

Your Hoc statements won't work here, Sith. Some of us are immune to your jedi mind tricks.

We did torture Germans during WW II. We even tortured German civilians who were caught in a sabotage plot - and then hung them without a civilian trial. And we did it all in the name of trying to free Europe from German oppression.

Well, if you want help next time, we'll be sure to put the contract in writing so that you'll be forced to accept our use of torture, or we'll just have to let you fend for yourself.

We all remember how well you all did the last time on your own.

We did torture Germans during WW II. We even tortured German civilians who were caught in a sabotage plot - and then hung them without a civilian trial. And we did it all in the name of trying to free Europe from German oppression.

Well, if you want help next time, we'll be sure to put the contract in writing so that you'll be forced to accept our use of torture, or we'll just have to let you fend for yourself.

We all remember how well you all did the last time on your own.

There wasn't a UN during WWII, pally.

hmmmmmm i'm a right wing jezuzfreak


Great.

You don't know but i guess I'll tell you that the I.D. tags I wear have Athiest as Religious Preference (the New set i'm getting has No REL PREF in that spot)

Oh I'm a Democrat, yup registered within the 16th Prescint of Stark County Ohio.

I voted for Kerry. Yup you might find that one hard to belive.

Oh and I don't support nor Condone Torture. Or the Mass Imprisonments. Show me a thread where I have said I do that.


The Geneva Convention is very dear to me, you know why? Because I hope if I ever get captured that others would follow those rules. I am against this administration BUT, I am still an American Soldier, I'm still a Patriot and I still Love my Country. I hate Bush's Social Security plan, thats why i'm trying to become a State Employee so that I won't have to deal with it.


On that online Political Compass test I come out a Moderate Democrat very close to the Center leaning to the Political Left and Libretarian.


I support Gun ownership. Do I own a Firearm? no, but i'm trained in their use and enjoy shooting.


NEVER EVER MENTION MY Online Persona AGAIN AS ONE THAT SUPPORTS TORTURE. I don't thats it.

We did torture Germans during WW II. We even tortured German civilians who were caught in a sabotage plot - and then hung them without a civilian trial. And we did it all in the name of trying to free Europe from German oppression.

Well, if you want help next time, we'll be sure to put the contract in writing so that you'll be forced to accept our use of torture, or we'll just have to let you fend for yourself.

We all remember how well you all did the last time on your own.

So you are saying because we acted mean, brutal, and wrong before we should do it again?

I won't justify the actions of that torture. It was wrong then and wrong now.

You can win wars without torture.

There wasn't a UN during WWII, pally.


Yes there was.

When Germany Surrendered They surrendered to forces of "The United Nations" The UN was formed at Yalta Conference I believe. It wasn't very old but it was there.

My whole problem with this thread is what you people seem to be defining as torture. Some US troops are guilty of putting some Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing and uncomfortable position. That hardly constitues torture.

Cutting a person's tongue while they're conscious is torture; making a man strip in front of other men is not torture.

Pushing a person feet first through a shredder is torture; making a person kneel unconfortably for a few hours is not torture.

Shocking a man's genitals is torture; putting a bag over his head is not torture.

If you define what happened at Abu Grhaib (sp?) as torture, you're defing High School gym class as torture.

So you are saying because we acted mean, brutal, and wrong before we should do it again?

I won't justify the actions of that torture. It was wrong then and wrong now.

You can win wars without torture.

Really? You know of one that you can certify contained no acts of torture?

Really? You know of one that you can certify contained no acts of torture?
On Earth: i'm not sure, but in Heaven yes.

In the beginning once Satan rebelled there was a war. Eventually the fopllowers of Satan were cast down. But till then there was a war. No torture took place.

Earth: Revolutionary war has little talk of it. War of 1812 doesn't speak much of torture. America-Mexico wars didn't have torture to my knowledge.

A few Japanese wars.

Chinese wars back with the Dynastys. Honor was important back then so thats worse than death.

So yes there was a few wars without torture.

My whole problem with this thread is what you people seem to be defining as torture. Some US troops are guilty of putting some Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing and uncomfortable position. That hardly constitues torture.

Cutting a person's tongue while they're conscious is torture; making a man strip in front of other men is not torture.

Pushing a person feet first through a shredder is torture; making a person kneel unconfortably for a few hours is not torture.

Shocking a man's genitals is torture; putting a bag over his head is not torture.

If you define what happened at Abu Grhaib (sp?) as torture, you're defing High School gym class as torture.
Which high school was that? Mine wasn't like that!

So in your high school. You have to strip naked infront of other guys with everyone staring and laughing. And the ciaches like that attitude.

You put a bag over someone's head? You shocked a man's testicles?

You sound like asick man: get help immedeately.

Yes there was.

When Germany Surrendered They surrendered to forces of "The United Nations" The UN was formed at Yalta Conference I believe. It wasn't very old but it was there.
In fact...the Allied Powers official title was "The United Nations"

My whole problem with this thread is what you people seem to be defining as torture. Some US troops are guilty of putting some Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing and uncomfortable position. That hardly constitues torture.

Cutting a person's tongue while they're conscious is torture; making a man strip in front of other men is not torture.

Pushing a person feet first through a shredder is torture; making a person kneel unconfortably for a few hours is not torture.

Shocking a man's genitals is torture; putting a bag over his head is not torture.

If you define what happened at Abu Grhaib (sp?) as torture, you're defing High School gym class as torture.
Allowing a bound prisoner to be bitten by dogs, beating prisoners, forcing prisoners to kneel with mouth open while another prisoner is forced to masturbate into his face is in my book torture. Sleep deprivation and the like are not.

My whole problem with this thread is what you people seem to be defining as torture. Some US troops are guilty of putting some Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing and uncomfortable position. That hardly constitues torture.

Cutting a person's tongue while they're conscious is torture; making a man strip in front of other men is not torture.

Pushing a person feet first through a shredder is torture; making a person kneel unconfortably for a few hours is not torture.

Shocking a man's genitals is torture; putting a bag over his head is not torture.

If you define what happened at Abu Grhaib (sp?) as torture, you're defing High School gym class as torture.

this is essentially the only thing intelligible said in this entire trainwreck of a thread.

On Earth: i'm not sure, but in Heaven yes.

In the beginning once Satan rebelled there was a war. Eventually the fopllowers of Satan were cast down. But till then there was a war. No torture took place.

Earth: Revolutionary war has little talk of it. War of 1812 doesn't speak much of torture. America-Mexico wars didn't have torture to my knowledge.

A few Japanese wars.

Chinese wars back with the Dynastys. Honor was important back then so thats worse than death.

So yes there was a few wars without torture.

Both sides used torture during the American Revolutionary War. And during 1812. Texans and Mexicans tortured each other during their wars.

Chinese routinely used torture. Especially under the Mongols and afterwards.

You'll be hard pressed to find one. It would have to be an extremely short war.

Allowing a bound prisoner to be bitten by dogs, beating prisoners, forcing prisoners to kneel with mouth open while another prisoner is forced to masturbate into his face is in my book torture. Sleep deprivation and the like are not.
And the people who carried out these acts are being punished.

And the people who carried out these acts are being punished.
I know. See my first post in this thread.

And the people who carried out these acts are being punished.
Yes but the point is that high schools do not do these actions.

And that these actions are wrong no matter the reason.

People are trying to justify the actions on the htread.

My whole problem with this thread is what you people seem to be defining as torture. Some US troops are guilty of putting some Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing and uncomfortable position. That hardly constitues torture.

Cutting a person's tongue while they're conscious is torture; making a man strip in front of other men is not torture.

Pushing a person feet first through a shredder is torture; making a person kneel unconfortably for a few hours is not torture.

Shocking a man's genitals is torture; putting a bag over his head is not torture.

If you define what happened at Abu Grhaib (sp?) as torture, you're defing High School gym class as torture.
maybe you need to wait for the aclu's case to come out or go look up their documents, that is the least of the shit they did.

the military is guilty of psychological, emotional AND physical torture, and it goes to the top of the line

Have you ever had to endure sustained sleep deprivation?

It's torture, believe me.

Sensory deprivation?

Ditto.

...and these fun, innovative techniques, which leave no physical scarring, were pioneered by the CIA and test-driven in Central and South American dictatorships propped up by Washington.

Have you ever had to endure sustained sleep deprivation?

It's torture, believe me.

Sensory deprivation?

Ditto.

...and these fun, innovative techniques, which leave no physical scarring, were pioneered by the CIA and test-driven in Central and South American dictatorships propped up by Washington.
I have endured days of sleep deprivation. It's not fun, but it's not the same as having your testicles shocked by high voltage. Some level of coersion must be used in interrogation of prisoners. It should be limited to such techniques that don't endanger life and limb.

Have you ever had to endure sustained sleep deprivation?
It's torture, believe me.
Sensory deprivation?
Ditto.

...and these fun, innovative techniques, which leave no physical scarring, were pioneered by the CIA and test-driven in Central and South American dictatorships propped up by Washington.

No, test driven by Canadian doctors on unwitting Canadian nurses at McGill University. Then test driven on CIA employees by Canadian doctors.

Invented by Canadian doctors who suggested first that the CIA grant them a contract to study it.

This is old news. Thanks, Canada.

I have endured days of sleep deprivation. It's not fun, but it's not the same as having your testicles shocked by high voltage. Some level of coersion must be used in interrogation of prisoners. It should be limited to such techniques that don't endanger life and limb.
psychological damage is just as bad if not worse than physical damage, go check out some veteran homes

Um no, THERE ARE NO CONNECTIONS BETWEEN AL QUADA (look im too lazy to look it up) AND IRAQ!!! IF YOU READ ANYTHING NOT FROM A CONSERVATIVE BIASED MEDIA YOU WILL KNOW THAT! We are not in iraq for terrorists. Bush planned this war way before 9/11 Terrorists are in afghanistan, we arent. We are in iraq, and the whole in iraq is a huge lie. Think about, first we went in due to ties with osama bin laden. Guess what? there werent any! then we went in because of weapons of mass destruction. Guess what? NONE OF THOSE EITHER. SO then we went in to "free" the people from saddam. Hes captured, but WERE STILL THERE.

This isn't the US this is one dictator and his cabinet taking advantage of the US presidency and peoples ignorance.

Its because of Bush, people who vote for him have no idea what they're doing. They only watch fox and therefore have distorted views of whats going on. (watch "Outfoxed" a movie about rupert murdoch's war on journalism) People who watch fox are actually LESS informed then in if they had not watched fox news at all because it gives people distorted views. Im so tired of these threads. WE GET IT WERE A BUNCH OF JERKS NOW WE KNOW WHATS GOING ON IN IRAQ STOP MAKING THESE STUPID THREADS!!!! :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper: DIE DIE DIE THREAD! :headbang:
Where the hell do these idiots come from? Did someone close all the insane asylums and let the inmates out? Jeeze.

psychological damage is just as bad if not worse than physical damage, go check out some veteran homes
Navy guys who want to become SEALs go through sleep deprivation for days as part of their training. A few days with no sleep isn't going to destroy anyone's sanity.

Let's all remember Dr. Ewen Cameron, famous Canadian neurologist and psychiatrist, who invented the modern torture techniques BEFORE he brought them to the CIA and asked for a contract - the man who sacrificed several of his nurses to a life of permanent insanity at his hands.

The man who was never held accountable by McGill University or the Canadian Government (or any other government, for that matter).

Navy guys who want to become SEALs go through sleep deprivation for days as part of their training. A few days with no sleep isn't going to destroy anyone's sanity.
actually... yes, enough days of sleep deprivation will fuck up your head. and most military people are brainwashed anyway, the sleep deprivation may be doing it..

Navy guys who want to become SEALs go through sleep deprivation for days as part of their training. A few days with no sleep isn't going to destroy anyone's sanity.

thank you Dr. Drunk Commies. I look forward to you publishing your paper in the near future.

And at this point, that famous Canadian, Dr. Cameron, isn't being criticized in the least for inventing sleep deprivation, white noise, and what Dr. Cameron termed "psychic driving" as a method of torture.

He's not even being criticized by Dobbs, who believes that anyone who is Not An American is incapable of doing anything wrong.

And at this point, that famous Canadian, Dr. Cameron, isn't being criticized in the least for inventing sleep deprivation, white noise, and what Dr. Cameron termed "psychic driving" as a method of torture.

He's not even being criticized by Dobbs, who believes that anyone who is Not An American is incapable of doing anything wrong.

Ahhh, thanks for telling me what I believe. I'm getting used to being told by Americans what I believe in. Someday, FoxNews will be here to provide me with correct beliefs whenever I need them.

Oh joy.

Ahhh, thanks for telling me what I believe. I'm getting used to being told by Americans what I believe in. Someday, FoxNews will be here to provide me with correct beliefs whenever I need them.

Oh joy.

Well, I only hear from you that the US and Bush are bad. Why not Canada? Why not Dr. Cameron?

at least we take prisoners....we don't execute them...we don't behead them.....why isn't there anything said about that? And i don't call waht happened in abu ghraib was torture...that was breaking them to get them to talk.....they were not beat, etc.....it happens all over the world in all different militaries and prisons...they were just stupid enough to take pictures and brag about it....nobody is cristical of anyone except the us anymore...

at least we take prisoners....we don't execute them...we don't behead them.....why isn't there anything said about that? And i don't call waht happened in abu ghraib was torture...that was breaking them to get them to talk.....they were not beat, etc.....it happens all over the world in all different militaries and prisons...they were just stupid enough to take pictures and brag about it....nobody is cristical of anyone except the us anymore...

Auto (auto parts!),

They were beaten. Please read some before posting. It's not the methods that people are upset about, it's the concept. Dobbs here wouldn't do anything that could be considered torture by anyone - so we can't do the dripping water thing, or the comfy chair, or the Spanish Inquisition.

Yes, it was stupid to take pictures. But it probably was a Kodak moment.

at least we take prisoners....we don't execute them...we don't behead them.....why isn't there anything said about that?

Yes, at least there is that. At least. But do you really expect to be praised for not beheading prisoners? Come on, dude.

And i don't call waht happened in abu ghraib was torture...that was breaking them to get them to talk.....they were not beat, etc.....it happens all over the world in all different militaries and prisons...they were just stupid enough to take pictures and brag about it....nobody is cristical of anyone except the us anymore...

It's not supposed to happen, anywhere. Saying it's okay because the Saudis do it is like saying it's okay to ship political dissidents off to gulags 'cause the Soviets used to do it. Maybe they weren't physically tortured, but emotionally, mentally - remember, you've got to live inside your own skull your entire life. A lot of these people who have been tortured aren't going to have an expensive analyst at their fingertips when this is all over and done with.

I've known people who were so tortured, and try as they might, they are permanently damaged as a result of it.

thank you Dr. Drunk Commies. I look forward to you publishing your paper in the near future.
Look, plenty of people go without sleep for days on end. In some situations it results in hallucinations. When they get to catch up on sleep they get back to normal. I don't claim to be a doctor, but I've exerienced it. Also methamphetamine addicts go through long periods of sleep deprivation. Those who quit the drug go on to be fairly normal stable people. The sleep deprivation endured by a prisoner under interrogation is shorter than that of a speed addict on a big binge, and speed freaks tend to repeat their bouts of sleep deprivation. The prisoner's sleep deprivation only occur once or twice until he either gives up the information or time makes the information he might have useless.

Yes, it was stupid to take pictures. But it probably was a Kodak moment.

That's got to be the single most heartless post I've read on these forums all year long.

Hang your pointed little head in shame.

at least we take prisoners....we don't execute them...we don't behead them.....why isn't there anything said about that? And i don't call waht happened in abu ghraib was torture...that was breaking them to get them to talk.....they were not beat, etc.....it happens all over the world in all different militaries and prisons...they were just stupid enough to take pictures and brag about it....nobody is cristical of anyone except the us anymore...
1) yes they were beat
2) physical and emotional torture will NOT get people to talk, ie tell you what they know, it WILL get them to tell you what you WANT TO HEAR
3) so because the evil communists and dictators do it in their gfovernments, its ok for the supposed advocate of freedom to do it to its prisoners and expect not to be criticised?

That's got to be the single most heartless post I've read on these forums all year long.

Hang your pointed little head in shame.

Pointy heads,
pointy pointy
Anoint my head,
anointy nointy

Dobbs, the most frightening moment I ever had in my life was finding out during high school that my best friends mother (who was a June Cleaver lookalike) had tortured people in the 1960s.

She was the sweetest mom, too. Just scary.

Why do people speak as though the advent of torture is a new development, or that it is somehow more haneous today then it was 10 or even 20 years ago.
Torture has occured in every major military event in the history of man, and occurs everday (according to the liberal interpretation of today's humanitarian organizations)

Infact what we think of torture today is pale in comparison to what torture once was. Today enemies of the state must edure the "hardship" of living through humilitation, sleep deprevation, and fear (use of barking dogs) so that information is extracted. In the old days enemies of the state were electritcuted or physically mutulated, or eventually killed. The unpleastries which we force on precieved enemies can in no right be compared to those of the tortrous nature of the past.. and should not be thought of in the same way. The practiced employed by the United States or any government using similar techniques are hardly able to be considered war crimes, or crimes against humanity.

While to occurance at the prision in IRAQ were vastly more impactful and greatly reprehensible.. they are in no way comparable to the techniques endorsed by the government in guantanimo.

While the employment of mild tortoure is an unpleasent technique, it is a nessesary one when lives are on the line. To be fair.. humanitarian groups will always condem the use of any technique which inflicts unpleasentries on humans no matter the conditions. But in this world.. some unpleasentries are nesseasry!

If the US government did not expect the same to be done to any soldier captured by the enemy, then they would not train them for such situations.

yeah, thats why rules of what can and cant be done were devloped... and the fact that torture doesnt get you REAL information..

Pointy heads,
pointy pointy
Anoint my head,
anointy nointy

Dobbs, the most frightening moment I ever had in my life was finding out during high school that my best friends mother (who was a June Cleaver lookalike) had tortured people in the 1960s.

She was the sweetest mom, too. Just scary.
Under what circumstances did she torture people? Was she a dominatrix?

Under what circumstances did she torture people? Was she a dominatrix?

Apparently, during the 1950s and early 1960s, the US didn't believe that eastern european defectors were really defectors.

They thought they were spies.

So they tortured them hard, some of them to death.

Apparently, during the 1950s and early 1960s, the US didn't believe that eastern european defectors were really defectors.

They thought they were spies.

So they tortured them hard, some of them to death.
Oh, that's not as fun.

Now imagine hearing the story direct from a woman who looks and dresses like June Cleaver, and hear her husband nod in assent.

You're eating the cake she and her daughter helped you frost in the kitchen that afternoon.

Now imagine hearing the story direct from a woman who looks and dresses like June Cleaver, and hear her husband nod in assent.

You're eating the cake she and her daughter helped you frost in the kitchen that afternoon.

Did it make finishing the piece of cake any harder for you?

1) yes they were beat
2) physical and emotional torture will NOT get people to talk, ie tell you what they know, it WILL get them to tell you what you WANT TO HEAR
3) so because the evil communists and dictators do it in their gfovernments, its ok for the supposed advocate of freedom to do it to its prisoners and expect not to be criticised?

you people have no idea why the US did what it did. they're not emotional torture tactics, they're physical disorientation tactics, and they're allegedly effective.

Did it make finishing the piece of cake any harder for you?

Well, I was still hungry for cake, but my legs wanted to run in the worst way. It also became difficult to talk.

She was a bit more crude than sleep deprivation. She actually did horrific things with blades and hooks.

Dont you think the techniques used today are tested to provide proven results.. If torture is the ineffective method of information extraction you call it to be.. why then has it been employed for so long. Besides Sleep deprevation is very different from pain inducing technqiues.. a day or 2 without sleep and you are more seceptiable to influence (much like using a truth syrm)

Because Freedom isnt america's gift to the world, it is God's gift to mankind.

We have the divine right to do anything we want to spread Freedom.

Ahhh, thanks for telling me what I believe. I'm getting used to being told by Americans what I believe in. Someday, FoxNews will be here to provide me with correct beliefs whenever I need them.

Oh joy.

BBC is always telling me what my country is doiung wrong....and how wrong the things i beleive are...

There is not one single representative government in the "civilized" world who would not employ the same techniques given the circumstances if it would better secure their citizens from death or destruction

Dont you think the techniques used today are tested to provide proven results.. If torture is the ineffective method of information extraction you call it to be.. why then has it been employed for so long. Besides Sleep deprevation is very different from pain inducing technqiues.. a day or 2 without sleep and you are more seceptiable to influence (much like using a truth syrm)

Some techniques work better than others, but most are a function of the skill of the interrogator (something usually admitted by interrogators). Each will employ the methods they get the best results with. Recent successful Israeli interrogators use outright deception - they put people in prison with the suspects to befriend them and being stupid, people talk.

Some techniques work better than others, but most are a function of the skill of the interrogator (something usually admitted by interrogators). Each will employ the methods they get the best results with. Recent successful Israeli interrogators use outright deception - they put people in prison with the suspects to befriend them and being stupid, people talk.
That's routinely done in some US jails as well. The problem is that the inmates who are used to inform in this manner are usually willing to lie. They get better treatment if they give the guards what they want.

and to american media.. making Fox as though it were represenative of american media is a joke in of itself. Fox is an extreme example.. as a whole American media is far more tempered while of course bias to american view points.. but then all media is bias to their own view points.. espeically those of Europe and their anti americanism.. no media organization is "truely" unbias... not even BBC.. though they are as close as we can hope for.

and to american media.. making Fox as though it were represenative of american media is a joke in of itself. Fox is an extreme example.. as a whole American media is far more tempered while of course bias to american view points.. but then all media is bias to their own view points.. espeically those of Europe and their anti americanism.. no media organization is "truely" unbias... not even BBC.. though they are as close as we can hope for.

I guess you don't watch Canadian news, then.

I guess you don't watch Canadian news, then.

At least on the French news, they admit up front that they're owned by a corporate interest. When you watch them interview a corporate CEO who is under investigation by the government, they stroke the CEO so tenderly.

Some techniques work better than others, but most are a function of the skill of the interrogator (something usually admitted by interrogators). Each will employ the methods they get the best results with. Recent successful Israeli interrogators use outright deception - they put people in prison with the suspects to befriend them and being stupid, people talk.

This is true.. but circumstance truely defines what techniques will be the most effective.. Not every individual will respond the same way to every technique... and the ones employed by the government are proven effective, or they would not be so widley used. To those who call the Use of humilitation (nudity, sleep deprevation, and fear (barking dog !?!) inhumane torture.. truely must review what torture was once considered before crying human rights violation.

My whole problem with this thread is what you people seem to be defining as torture. Some US troops are guilty of putting some Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing and uncomfortable position. That hardly constitues torture.
Cutting a person's tongue while they're conscious is torture; making a man strip in front of other men is not torture.
*snip rest*


To you it is not torture. But have you ever considered that those men were raised in a different culture ? Maybe they would have preferred their tongues being cut out over being dishonoured. That they were forced to do things their religion considers a grave sin, that they were humiliated by what they consider infidels and have thereby brought shame upon their families may be something that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. Yes, the removal of their tongues would have been extremely painful and they would have been handicapped for the rest of their lives. But they would have kept their honour, and maybe even gained prestige.

The above is all just thinking out loud on my part, I do not know of the prisoners really felt that way. But simply saying they weren't tortured is shortsighted IMO.

Technically, if we don't give the prisoner whatever he wants, whenever he wants it, including his freedom, it's torture, or can be claimed as such.

My whole problem with this thread is what you people seem to be defining as torture. Some US troops are guilty of putting some Iraqi prisoners in embarrassing and uncomfortable position. That hardly constitues torture.

Cutting a person's tongue while they're conscious is torture; making a man strip in front of other men is not torture.

Pushing a person feet first through a shredder is torture; making a person kneel unconfortably for a few hours is not torture.

Shocking a man's genitals is torture; putting a bag over his head is not torture.

If you define what happened at Abu Grhaib (sp?) as torture, you're defing High School gym class as torture.

Wow, you are like me, a US hypocrit. BTW what about the rape of Iraqi's by or gay US army in those prisons? Or the anal 450 Volt tortures in Iraqi ass? Let's conclude that we are even worse then Saddam but under Saddam, the world knew about it, now we don't.

We are such heros in those prisons, we are a lightning example for those people there :rolleyes:

If the US thought it was OK, it wouldn't investigate the issue of torture. If the US thought it was OK, there wouldn't be prosecutions over the issue of torture. If the US thought it was OK, the ACLU would not be able to file suit over the issue of torture.

Unlike some systems, we have checks and balances. There seems to be an acknowledgement in the US that people will do bad things. So we watch for it. And we try to stop it.

Name one group who has recently opposed the US militarily who holds themselves accountable to the same level.

Name one group who has recently opposed the US militarily who holds themselves accountable to the same level.

Even higher moral standards: France , Belgium, Spain, Italy, the Uk( all opposed us once) admited and excused and payed much more for its collonial dirty history then we did: (even no excuse for the A bombs), the UK/US joint killing of 750.000 German citizens (OK the Brits started and bombed mostly civilians while we focused more on industrial and millitary targets, but we helped in Dresden and Hamburg aso..), Argentina and it's US sponsored junta in wich 30.000 where killed, helped by the CIA; Pinochet (idem) and all the other regimes in Asia and Africa that we supported in the name of the fight against communism (in fact we know now that it was all a Rumsfeld/Cheney way of politics and not a fight against a system but a system to enrich the mighty, payed by Joe Sixpack).

Hell those Belgians (in fact their King LeoII and his private dominion for a while) killed 10.000's of natives in the 19th century and they helped us killing the first PM in Congo (long and difficult matter with Tchombe, Mobutu aso.., still dark), but they helped the country more then we did (and they are sooooo smmaaaalll). They even gave us the Kongo uranium for Little Man (witouth them and their scientists, no Allamo project, like we forget) I never saw us helping a third world country like those darn Europeans do, mostly we only install pupets like the former CIA agant and ex terrorist we put in charge in Iraq. We had collonoies to and repair less of the damage then some of them do. Yeah, not all, the Dutch are greedy and are the worst of them.

Hell I'am done with this EU bashing whilst we don't look to ourselves. They even spend 3 times more on help then we ("the most rich nation, ya know") and we (our governement) still have the guts to lie about it.
Poor US.(But I hope and think that our great nation can do better then our new enemies and ex friends, I HOPE).

There wasn't a UN during WWII, pally.
Hmm, yes, a UN that contains N Korea, China, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Egypt, and how many other insanely authoritarian and generally human rights violating countries? Oh yeah, I'd trust the UN all right.

On Earth: i'm not sure, but in Heaven yes.

In the beginning once Satan rebelled there was a war. Eventually the fopllowers of Satan were cast down. But till then there was a war. No torture took place.

Earth: Revolutionary war has little talk of it. War of 1812 doesn't speak much of torture. America-Mexico wars didn't have torture to my knowledge.

A few Japanese wars.

Chinese wars back with the Dynastys. Honor was important back then so thats worse than death.
Depending on who you talk to, Satan may or may not but trapped under a lake of ice. Qualifies as torture in my book.

I don't know of any exact incidents of torture, although I bet there was a bit if we took prisoners at all. I do know GW essentially ordered the genocide of an american indian tribe. Again, if we captured soldiers there was some torture.

The media in Japan wasn't exactly open, so I'm pretty sure you're blowing smoke out your ass referencing the Japanese wars.

Honor in both China and Japan was really not a code of morals so much as it was a code of fealty.

To the author, while I understand your squemishness etc, your government is

dealing with people who have no such qualms about doing the same to your

countrys people.

Sometimes in messy and deadly situations as 9/11 etc torture is necessary to

extract information from suspects, and believe me they will talk after a few

beatings and torn off fingernails, that are necessary in order to save lives.

Lives that could be little kids somewhere playing happily one moment in the

park, then suddenly dieing from a horrible chemical attack, that could have

been avoided with the right and necessary pressure on suspects with holding

information.

So whats worse, a little torture, or kids lying around dying, choking on their

own blood, can you honestly look at the victims familys of a terrorist attack

in your country, and say we could have stopped this, but the Geneva

convention, which no terrorist follows, prevented us from using quick

methods to stop it in time.

You may argue this country has to not bow down to terrorism, but at the

same time not resort to their methods of interrogation, or we will become like

them.

You may have little choice in the future, if you wish to avoid another 9/11 or

worse.

Get hard or wear the consequences

In wars, people get hurt. Some people get tortured. And some people die. Some are lucky enough just to be imprisoned.

All wars, not just this one. And you can't have a war without some of this happenning, whether you try hard to prevent it, or order it, or something in-between.

On the subject of who (if anyone) should be permitted to torture, and under what (if any) conditions, should torture be allowed, I propose that you answer the following example:

Your team has just captured an Al-Qaeda terrorist team (five people). In their apartment, you find machined bits of plutonium, scraps of plastic explosives, machined bits of beryllium, wires, etc. You also find detailed plans for an atomic weapon. The bomb experts on your team tell you that it is extremely likely that these people have assembled an atomic weapon, but that it is not on the premises. They also say that if it's far enough inside one of the city's skyscrapers, they're not going to be able to detect it from the outside using neutron detectors.

One of the terrorists speaks up to say one thing:

"You have 60 minutes before it goes off".

Would you torture them for information on the location of the bomb? Or would you do nothing? What level of torture would you permit?


Or try another scenario.

Al Qaeda captures an American commander. He tells them one of their "safe houses" is going to be raided soon.

Are they permitted to torture him?

If not, why not?

Torture is either right or wrong in and of itself.

It can never be O.K. for one side but not another.

I am not pleased with the idea of torture.. but if when you say torutre that he shall be subjected to sleep deprevation..s triped.. or frigtened by barking dogs.. yes.. those methods of "torture" are perfectly fine.. soldiers are trained to resist it.. if the militiary did not expect their men to be tortured..t h ey would not give them the subsiquent training.

On the other hand.. if when you say torture.. you mean he will be hooked up to a battery and blasted till he throws up his inards, or his hand or fingers are choped off one at a time.. or his stomach opened up so he can see his inards while still alive.. obviously these are not OK .. but they may still be even expected.. especially from a terrorist group.. it is not OK for it to be done..a nd its not OK for us to do it..

the definition of torture is very important here.. in the first case.. i would have little problem.. in the second.. there are issues.. still its always expected.. war is not pretty, nor are sacrifices not made.. obiously i say this in an objective tone.. since im detached from the issue myself

Bump

I am not pleased with the idea of torture.. but if when you say torutre that he shall be subjected to sleep deprevation..s triped.. or frigtened by barking dogs.. yes.. those methods of "torture" are perfectly fine.. soldiers are trained to resist it.. if the militiary did not expect their men to be tortured..t h ey would not give them the subsiquent training.

On the other hand.. if when you say torture.. you mean he will be hooked up to a battery and blasted till he throws up his inards, or his hand or fingers are choped off one at a time.. or his stomach opened up so he can see his inards while still alive.. obviously these are not OK .. but they may still be even expected.. especially from a terrorist group.. it is not OK for it to be done..a nd its not OK for us to do it..

the definition of torture is very important here.. in the first case.. i would have little problem.. in the second.. there are issues.. still its always expected.. war is not pretty, nor are sacrifices not made.. obiously i say this in an objective tone.. since im detached from the issue myself

Of course, the word torture is subjective.

To a Muslim man, being stripped naked and being piled up in a naked man-pile could preclude him going to heaven. To most Americans, this is normal routine hazing at a fraternity. To a Muslim man, having your eyebrows shaved may be a huge shame, while some guys in America would do it for concert tickets. The big problem here is that people forget that we are talkiing about two very different societies here.

I do think, however, (and most people I have talked to agree) that a small number of soldiers seeking to get a little fun out of forcing people to do things that are against their religion is wrong and worthy of punishment.

Please don't flame.

I'm sorry, but I might have to break that rule of yours.

Last days, we saw a lot of new evidence about the torturing of people in US hands, specially those in Guantanamo and Iraq and have questions about the fate of lots of jailed muslims in the main US after 9/11. People that don't have the right to fall under the Geneva convention (according the US, not according the civilised world and the coventions signed by the US itself).

Now let me tell you a couple of things boy... The USA was attacked. I bet you havent experienced anything of that manner, and if you are a US citizen my guess would be that you havent realized how horrible the attacks were. Being attacked in the way the USA was attacked is one of the worst things that can happen to a country and the USA had to fight back. The events of 9/11 were a declaration of war and in order to make that war not be fought on American soil the US went into Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, US forces captured a lot of terrorists and they, like every one else that wouldn't fail on a mental test kept them in prisons, of course they didn't release those who were fighting against the US and committed the terrible acts of terrorism on 9/11. Some of the terrorists were cought inside the USA and like we both probably understand, they also needed to be put in jail. As in every war fought, a country keeps POWs untill the end of the war, they do not need to use resources to give the POWs a trial. The fact is that the US doesnt have to follow the Geneva conventions if it thinks that the rules put it and the rest of the free world in danger. Mr. Donald Rumsfeld put it the right way. He said that fighting this enemy, wich doesnt follow the rules of war, in a formal way would be like bringing a knife to a gunfight. Plus, I remember reading about a few terrorists who were released from Gitmo being killed later, in combat, in Afghanistan.

Lots of muslims are still in jail in the US after 9/11, just because they are muslim. There is no western state in wich so much muslims are kept in jail because of their believes and seen as terrorist because of their believes. Those people still have no right to see a advocate (wich is against international law and the US constitution).

What evidence do you have of muslims being held in prisons in the US for just being muslims? I visited the US this autumn and I saw dozens of muslims there. According to you that can't be true, because if they are muslims, they are supposed to be in jail in the US. It is also a fact that most of the members of al Qaeda, if not all, are muslims. So arresting 10 muslims who are suspected terrorists would be more reasonable than arresting 5 muslims who are suspected terrorists and 5 christians, jews or anyone of another religion, just to look like you're not arresting muslims.


The torturing of political prisonars in Guantanamo, Afghanistan and Iraq still continues (like we all know but are to affraid to discuss in the US).
All this is shamefull for a nation that had once (upon a time) a tradition of democratic rules and a role in WWII on witch it can be proud (forget WWI, some ignorants on NS think that it is the same but they are to stupid to discuss "Kaiserslacht"). But now we see this great nation acting like the political systems that it fought long ago. A small minority in charge that abolishes all intern and international laws.

Are terrorists political prisoners? Or are you saying that democrats are being arrested and tortured? You call the republicans in charge a small minority. Didn't Bush win the last election with a few million votes and more than enough electoral votes? His administration is ofcourse a small percent of the american population, but so is almost every other administration, but I wouldn't call having a majority of the country backing the administration a small minority. You also put the spotlight on the few US troops who were abusing POWs. Like almost everyone else, I think torture is a terrible thing and that it should not be practiced unless as a last resort. But you are "cursing" at those few US troops who tortured terrorists and other kinds of horrible criminals. Werent those tortured the same kind of criminals as those who were cutting heads of westerners? I think you don't want to admit that your friends, the head-cutters were the bad guys.
And now about the US troops who tortured those prisoners: The US isn't afraid to discuss their acts. After all, some of the troops have been sent to prison and others are waiting for a trial. Those US troops were also humiliated on TV all over the world, but unlike with the enemy prisoners, the US troop's faces were shown, so when they get out of prison they will be recognized everywhere. The enemy prisoners won't be recognized and have a chance of beginning new lives after the war.

One of the worst things are those youngsters (the "future"!) that behave like real nazi's in the way that they denie each fact, or worse, only think that those cases are isolated ones... like they lack the vission to be critic about the crimes of their own in general (or in the past), something seldom seen amongst other western states now.

IMO the US youngsters who will most likely rule the country after a few years are a bright future for the US. They arent like nazis. They feel passionately about their country and will probably do everything in their power to keep their country safe and free. Many of them believe that those cases were isolated ones because they most likely were. The people in the military are pretty much like other people. And like every other large group of people, there are most likely a few who don't obey all the rules. They can be officers, privates or in any other rank, just like rich, poor and middle class people each have their bad apples. I know that the US military doesn't have a policy that encourages the torture and bad treatement of POWs and I believe the military, for I havent seen any evidence that proves that the military has that type of policy.

Those deniers, like we often see on NS by a small minority of extremists, admit at max. the last facts of torture and have the guts to say that "it is only this fact"....until the next, in wich they repeate the old denieing that the torturing is not generaly spread and denie that this Bush regime is not better then any of the regimes it fought in the past (the soviet dictatures) or supported (the Pinochet, Argentina aso dictatures).In fact those Etru.a's; WWII Counc. O. Cl. on NS and other are a minority of extreme fanatics, some people say "Jezuslandfools" or CRWN's.
Fact is that those are irelivant when people match them with the moderate Joe, Bill, José aso. that want to take take care for their own in a peacefull world in wich their nation does not oppress the world and want a cleaner, more enviromental friendly world just like their latest real elected politicians worked together with the civilised and sientific world.

What went wrong, how is this once great nation becoming the ennemy of its former friends and the rest of the world, how is this this nation turning in to the orgasme of 4th Reich like old Nazi's and other 3th Reich nostalgists :
inside destruction of everything that does not make the rich even more rich; most people getting even more poor; a dying middleclass that pays for the rich; support of new Stalins like Putin; wars for oilmoney; wars that kill more civilians then in the last 10 years and only benefit some guys in the giverment and there conglomerates; torturing that is excused as isolated while every NCO and other govs say that (and prooves) that it is widespread...aso aso aso..Ok this can be black and white but it is like most Americans feel (not even speaking about the rest of the mostly unkown world for Americans).

What is wrong? Are we getting stupid in the west? What is wrong with the Nato partners that allways were very happy when they asked for more attention to human rights towards the commie states in the old days and were happy when the the US did the same or started it. Nowadays, those allies have the moral obligation (like we all know) to ask the same questions at their "friend" that fell down to a Ayatollah Khomeiny levell: respect for human rights...

But they are so bussy with themselves and the making of a big market. A big market in wich they even let in the influence of the old allie/new enemy: the US that does everything to destroy a political EU (Turkey, Polland and other out of the US hand eater cappo states) in wich the real heroes; nations that want a pollitical EU and have the guts to say no towards this old friend when this old friend acts like the old fascist enemy, are sabotaged and shouted at by this US regime. (but still seen as the right guys by the majority of the world).

Why can the US get away with things that it condems towards other nations? Terrorisme?
No, when you believe that, please read something and stay out of the discussion, because the US blaimed almost every country (exept the right wing Latin Condor regimes) in the past for this when it fitted the US..

It's 6 AM where I am and I think I'll go to sleep after this last answer:

I didn't read all of the text in the last quote, but judging by a quick look at it, you seem certain that prisoner abuse in US military prisons is everywhere around us. What proof do you have to back that up? How many abuse photos have you seen? 20? 30? How many prisoners do you think the US military has in it's prisons? The ones on the pictures are only a small percent of the prisoners in US military prisons. I don't believe anything I haven't seen or am not certain of. Don't go calling US troops torturing, babykilling pigs, because they are part of the few people who are willing to fight for you and the rest of the free world. As far as you know there are only a few cases of prisoner abuse. I say again: I'm against such abuse. But accusing all, or most US troops of torture, abuse and pig-ism is kind of like accusing all muslims, or arabs of being terrorists.
I have one-two points that I'd like to share about the war being about oil money: How is the US economy doing now? Isn't the oil money paying off? How much has gasoline price risen since the war began? Stealing Iraq's oil would lower gasoline prices and strengthen the economy.
How dare you call the US a nazi country? The US has lower taxes for the rich, but that is good for the economy, and the US needs to strengthen it's economy now. Should the US sacrifice it's economy for the middle and lower class? Then everyone would be poor in the US. And I bet some of you liberals would like that.
It also looks like you aren't on the free worlds side. You seem to be defending the terrorists.

Just remember that we can all have our oppinions because of those who have fought for the free world. I the terrorists won the War Against Terrorism, we couldn't have these oppinions, and we most likely wouldn't be writing on our computers.


:)

Last days, we saw a lot of new evidence about the torturing of people in US hands, specially those in Guantanamo and Iraq and have questions about the fate of lots of jailed muslims in the main US after 9/11. People that don't have the right to fall under the Geneva convention (according the US, not according the civilised world and the coventions signed by the US itself).
Lots of muslims are still in jail in the US after 9/11, just because they are muslim. There is no western state in wich so much muslims are kept in jail because of their believes and seen as terrorist because of their believes. Those people still have no right to see a advocate (wich is against international law and the US constitution).
The torturing of political prisonars in Guantanamo, Afghanistan and Iraq still continues (like we all know but are to affraid to discuss in the US).
All this is shamefull for a nation that had once (upon a time) a tradition of democratic rules and a role in WWII on witch it can be proud (forget WWI, some ignorants on NS think that it is the same but they are to stupid to discuss "Kaiserslacht"). But now we see this great nation acting like the political systems that it fought long ago. A small minority in charge that abolishes all intern and international laws.
One of the worst things are those youngsters (the "future"!) that behave like real nazi's in the way that they denie each fact, or worse, only think that those cases are isolated ones... like they lack the vission to be critic about the crimes of their own in general (or in the past), something seldom seen amongst other western states now.
Those deniers, like we often see on NS by a small minority of extremists, admit at max. the last facts of torture and have the guts to say that "it is only this fact"....until the next, in wich they repeate the old denieing that the torturing is not generaly spread and denie that this Bush regime is not better then any of the regimes it fought in the past (the soviet dictatures) or supported (the Pinochet, Argentina aso dictatures).In fact those Etru.a's; WWII Counc. O. Cl. on NS and other are a minority of extreme fanatics, some people say "Jezuslandfools" or CRWN's.
Fact is that those are irelivant when people match them with the moderate Joe, Bill, José aso. that want to take take care for their own in a peacefull world in wich their nation does not oppress the world and want a cleaner, more enviromental friendly world just like their latest real elected politicians worked together with the civilised and sientific world.
What went wrong, how is this once great nation becoming the ennemy of its former friends and the rest of the world, how is this this nation turning in to the orgasme of 4th Reich like old Nazi's and other 3th Reich nostalgists :
inside destruction of everything that does not make the rich even more rich; most people getting even more poor; a dying middleclass that pays for the rich; support of new Stalins like Putin; wars for oilmoney; wars that kill more civilians then in the last 10 years and only benefit some guys in the giverment and there conglomerates; torturing that is excused as isolated while every NCO and other govs say that (and prooves) that it is widespread...aso aso aso..Ok this can be black and white but it is like most Americans feel (not even speaking about the rest of the mostly unkown world for Americans).
What is wrong? Are we getting stupid in the west? What is wrong with the Nato partners that allways were very happy when they asked for more attention to human rights towards the commie states in the old days and were happy when the the US did the same or started it. Nowadays, those allies have the moral obligation (like we all know) to ask the same questions at their "friend" that fell down to a Ayatollah Khomeiny levell: respect for human rights...
But they are so bussy with themselves and the making of a big market. A big market in wich they even let in the influence of the old allie/new enemy: the US that does everything to destroy a political EU (Turkey, Polland and other out of the US hand eater cappo states) in wich the real heroes; nations that want a pollitical EU and have the guts to say no towards this old friend when this old friend acts like the old fascist enemy, are sabotaged and shouted at by this US regime. (but still seen as the right guys by the majority of the world).
Why can the US get away with things that it condems towards other nations? Terrorisme?
No, when you believe that, please read something and stay out of the discussion, because the US blaimed almost every country (exept the right wing Latin Condor regimes) in the past for this when it fitted the US.
Please don't flame and don't wury bout the log in name, it was open and like the fact show us, close to the truth.

You poor weak fool, torture is necessary when it gets this serious.

If information is extracted speedily, aka torture, that will save people in your

country quickly from another 9/11 or worse, then so be it.

Get some backbone and a stronger stomach.

Just remember, these people who hate your country this much, do not have

the same regard to human life, that you want your government to have

towards them.

Do they care about the Geneva convention, have they ever?

No, so why should they recieve its benefits, fuck them.

Rip their nuts off and ram them down their throats if you

have to.

Speaking only for the British only at the moment, I guess we should feel pretty silly compared to our ally; we only have 4 kept in custody without rights. Blast, guess we'll have to create our own Guantamno in Ireland...wait, no, ooops, that'll get the IRA on our asses and we already have THAT to take care of...

(I'm not being serious, so if your Irish, realise it's just for fun! :P)

I doubt Muslim insurgents would make it far in the UK. We have a lot of muslims here and despite the more extremist speakers, most muslim-worshipping of the UK like it here, though they are getting a bit tired and angry at the special attention put on them. I mean, I would feel the same if I got searched and tagged at each and every airport just because I'm chinese by blood! " Oh no, its a commie bastard, get him boys!" *shudders*

So, yeah, should a terrorist attack happen in the UK by a muslim group, I am pretty sure, though of course not certain (while I have a lot of Muslim friends, they're not from central london, land of townies, pikies and dangerous folk overall...not insulting any london folk, they're everywhere, winchester and manchester and cornwall...) but I'd think that any muslim terrorist attacks would thus inflict casualties on the many other ethnic races and religions here...including Islam.

I'm babbling at the moment. bleh.

but I'd think that any muslim terrorist attacks would thus inflict casualties on the many other ethnic races and religions here...including Islam.


I dont think that worrys them much, if a thousand muslims die in an attack

that wipes out over ten thousand whitey, then it would be the will of Allah to

them, or something like that, regardless, if the attacks on American troops in

Iraq, and on polling booths, police stations etc are anything to go by, the

muslim extremeists dont really care much how many of their brethren they

kill, if it stops western interests, or kills westerners,

Question to torture advocats:

Let's look at Little Minds' scenario.

Al Qaeda, 60 mins, nuke etc etc etc.

Right now your enemy is someone who will gladly take their own life, or have it taken, if it means striking a major blow to the 'infidels'.

You capture them, they know there is 60 minutes until detonation, they tell you as much.

All they have to do is wait 60 minutes and they win. You sure torture will get the location from them? They mightn't say anything. They might lie and send you in the wrong direction. They might tell you just too late for you to do anything for fun.

If torture won't work here, can it be justified?

You capture them, they know there is 60 minutes until detonation, they tell you as much.
All they have to do is wait 60 minutes and they win. You sure torture will get the location from them? They mightn't say anything. They might lie and send you in the wrong direction. They might tell you just too late for you to do anything for fun.
If torture won't work here, can it be justified?

I think so, you may get sent on a goose chase, or the suspect might handle

the torture for 60 minutes, and when I say torture I dont mean the no

moving, uncomfortable position bullshit, I'm talking toenails lifted up slowly

with pliers, fingers cut off etc, real fair dinkum torture.

But just because a few do this, and you get nil results, the torture will get a

few in the end, well probably most suspects, and save innocent lives from an

Islamic act of terror.

If you want to beat these guys, you have to be on their playing field.

No, what I'm asking is, can you justify no-holds-barred torture if you can't be sure you'll get what you want when it's REALLY needed.

Heck, these guys might even take severe doses of painkillers to 'ease' their passing.

=Nsendalen]No, what I'm asking is, can you justify no-holds-barred torture if you can't be sure you'll get what you want when it's REALLY needed.

Well, can you justify not trying?


Heck, these guys might even take severe doses of painkillers to 'ease' their passing.

lol, where are they going to get those from, think body search...

also anything they can conceal from their capors, would have to be

extremely small, and lethal, as in cynaid tablet.

I'd like to point out that while I don't like these activities, I'm sure that other countries have it going on but the media just doesn't report it.

And this opinion is based on ....?
Or supported by ....?

Unless, of course, you mean some of the more repressive regimes throughout the world.

And if you believe that their activity justifies the same by the US, which claims to be the champion of freedom and democracy, how do you reconcile what is claimed to be motive with what is actually occuring?

Well, can you justify not trying?


lol, where are they going to get those from, think body search...

also anything they can conceal from their capors, would have to be

extremely small, and lethal, as in cynaid tablet.


I'm thinking heavy dose before they even know they're about to be captured.

As for justifying not trying, I myself can by going with what I consider to be right, which is, inflicting massive amounts of pain for no definite benefit being plain wrong, amongst others. With 60 minutes left, I doubt there'd be much I could do anyway to prevent detonation.

Where the hell do these idiots come from? Did someone close all the insane asylums and let the inmates out? Jeeze.
I wonder that when I read your posts.

It's not okay but it is not likely that any nation is going to say anything about it or even fight the most powerfull military in the world.

Last days, we saw a lot of new evidence about the torturing of people in US hands, specially those in Guantanamo and Iraq and have questions about the fate of lots of jailed muslims in the main US after 9/11. People that don't have the right to fall under the Geneva convention (according the US, not according the civilised world and the coventions signed by the US itself).

Lots of muslims are still in jail in the US after 9/11, just because they are muslim. There is no western state in wich so much muslims are kept in jail because of their believes and seen as terrorist because of their believes. Those people still have no right to see a advocate (wich is against international law and the US constitution).

The torturing of political prisonars in Guantanamo, Afghanistan and Iraq still continues (like we all know but are to affraid to discuss in the US).
All this is shamefull for a nation that had once (upon a time) a tradition of democratic rules and a role in WWII on witch it can be proud (forget WWI, some ignorants on NS think that it is the same but they are to stupid to discuss "Kaiserslacht"). But now we see this great nation acting like the political systems that it fought long ago. A small minority in charge that abolishes all intern and international laws.

One of the worst things are those youngsters (the "future"!) that behave like real nazi's in the way that they denie each fact, or worse, only think that those cases are isolated ones... like they lack the vission to be critic about the crimes of their own in general (or in the past), something seldom seen amongst other western states now.

Those deniers, like we often see on NS by a small minority of extremists, admit at max. the last facts of torture and have the guts to say that "it is only this fact"....until the next, in wich they repeate the old denieing that the torturing is not generaly spread and denie that this Bush regime is not better then any of the regimes it fought in the past (the soviet dictatures) or supported (the Pinochet, Argentina aso dictatures).In fact those Etru.a's; WWII Counc. O. Cl. on NS and other are a minority of extreme fanatics, some people say "Jezuslandfools" or CRWN's.
Fact is that those are irelivant when people match them with the moderate Joe, Bill, José aso. that want to take take care for their own in a peacefull world in wich their nation does not oppress the world and want a cleaner, more enviromental friendly world just like their latest real elected politicians worked together with the civilised and sientific world.

What went wrong, how is this once great nation becoming the ennemy of its former friends and the rest of the world, how is this this nation turning in to the orgasme of 4th Reich like old Nazi's and other 3th Reich nostalgists :
inside destruction of everything that does not make the rich even more rich; most people getting even more poor; a dying middleclass that pays for the rich; support of new Stalins like Putin; wars for oilmoney; wars that kill more civilians then in the last 10 years and only benefit some guys in the giverment and there conglomerates; torturing that is excused as isolated while every NCO and other govs say that (and prooves) that it is widespread...aso aso aso..Ok this can be black and white but it is like most Americans feel (not even speaking about the rest of the mostly unkown world for Americans).

What is wrong? Are we getting stupid in the west? What is wrong with the Nato partners that allways were very happy when they asked for more attention to human rights towards the commie states in the old days and were happy when the the US did the same or started it. Nowadays, those allies have the moral obligation (like we all know) to ask the same questions at their "friend" that fell down to a Ayatollah Khomeiny levell: respect for human rights...

But they are so bussy with themselves and the making of a big market. A big market in wich they even let in the influence of the old allie/new enemy: the US that does everything to destroy a political EU (Turkey, Polland and other out of the US hand eater cappo states) in wich the real heroes; nations that want a pollitical EU and have the guts to say no towards this old friend when this old friend acts like the old fascist enemy, are sabotaged and shouted at by this US regime. (but still seen as the right guys by the majority of the world).

Why can the US get away with things that it condems towards other nations? Terrorisme?
No, when you believe that, please read something and stay out of the discussion, because the US blaimed almost every country (exept the right wing Latin Condor regimes) in the past for this when it fitted the US.

Please don't flame and don't wury bout the log in name, it was open and like the fact show us, close to the truth.
You are more wrong than you know, just be thankful that the fate of the world lies with 300,000,000 good hard working americans. And not with some megalomaniacal dictator from germany or the ussr. You are a sad result of misinformation campaign. Just because there are about 5 stupid soldiers @ abu ghraib prison who illegaly humiliated (they're getting convicted for abuse as we speak) terrorists to soften them up for interrogations. It dosent make all americans torturers. And about the EU!! Can you tell me what happened the last time europe was consolidated in this manner!!! Well it was bad, also why are all of the europeans so happy to give up their national soverienty just so they can compete with the USA???? Trust me they'll regret it when foreign beaurocrats start making laws that blanket their litttle towns and they have no say. Can you say ugly revolt, oh yes you can, and who'll come to the rescue, just take a guess.............

And one more thing anyone who compares my president to the Nazi murderers can kiss my ass!!! There you have it, illogical answer for a retarded comparison.

And one more thing anyone who compares my president to the Nazi murderers can kiss my ass!!! There you have it, illogical answer for a retarded comparison.

Grow up kid, don't be such a ignorant retard.His conclusions are far more intelligent then all your irrelevant blabla