NationStates Jolt Archive

Hey there ppl. It's Chizzilla here, bringing up something big. I ask you earnestly to debate the existence of one or multiple dieties. Debate the Bible, debate Jesus, Mary, the flood, adam and eve, etc. But most of all, does God really exist or is it just a sham to make us feel less alone and allow us to be ruled without force by charlatans?

:confused:

I'm agnostic, so I neither accept or deny the factuality of religion. What I do believe is that in the 50/50 chance there is existance of the divine, it would be a very benevolent one.

Hey there ppl. It's Chizzilla here, bringing up something big. I ask you earnestly to debate the existence of one or multiple dieties. Debate the Bible, debate Jesus, Mary, the flood, adam and eve, etc. But most of all, does God really exist or is it just a sham to make us feel less alone and allow us to be ruled without force by charlatans?

:confused:
Bible exists. The exsistance of the Bible is documented and I've touched it so I know its not a illusion :)

Jesus the story is debatable (I believe) but the man exists acvcording to science and facts.

Mary was his mother so its logical to assume she existed

The Flood is documented, but the severity of the flood might be debatable. It might not have covered the whole world just the continent they were on.

We are linked to a comon ancestor thus Adam and Eve. (And Lilith)

God exists. If he did not we would not exist. He created us in Heaven before we came to earth thus one is related to the other. No Earth to live if no God to make us.

Another religious debate thread? Why didn't you open it with: "ALL CHRISTIANS/ATHEISTS ARE WRONG!!!!" Just curious.

I accept the existence of the Bible, Jesus, a huge flood, and God; because without God (or some sort of divinity) existence is meaningless.

Another religious debate thread? Why didn't you open it with: "ALL CHRISTIANS/ATHEISTS ARE WRONG!!!!" Just curious.

I accept the existence of the Bible, Jesus, a huge flood, and God; because without God (or some sort of divinity) existence is meaningless.
So you belive something HAS to have meaning

Why?

Religion? Fact or Fiction?

I can assure you. There is, in fact, religion.

So you belive something HAS to have meaning

Why?

I prefer it that way.

I understand that many of you are too weak to accept that life has no meaning, but here it is anyway… God isn't real. He is just a fairytale told to children to make them behave. He is like Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy and all the rest of your childhood idols.

I understand that many of you are too weak to accept that life has no meaning

Likewise, I understand that you may be too weak to realize that it does.

Ha! Nice try, but I am strong enough to live happily without resorting to the worship of some false idol. I can appreciate the beauty of life without relying on some abstract concept of a creator to find meaning. Meaning is in the act of living, not God anyway.

Anyone that starts a topic of such deep implications with, "hey there ppl" needs to be beaten, just like a baby seal.

Has anyone read the book The Da Vinci Code? It's excessively good and raises some good points about religion.

Has anyone read the book The Da Vinci Code? It's excessively good and raises some good points about religion.
Yeah; same goes for its predecessor: Angels and Demons

..God isn't real. He is just a fairytale told to children to make them behave. He is like Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy and all the rest of your childhood idols.

That's a good way to put it. You know, if christianity was polytheistic, then we'd have deified santa claus and the tooth fairy long ago :)

Let me make a far-going claim: I am just as much prophet as Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha combined! :D Proof me wrong!

LOGICAL PROOF THAT CONSUL AUGUSTUS IS WRONG:

Given
1. That which is incorrect is wrong
2. That which is wrong, if created by a person, is therefore created by a person who is wrong.
3. A person who is wrong is wrong.

- Consul Augustus did not capitalize "Christianity" or "Santa Claus," and improperly used "Proof" - THEREFORE - his post contained that which was incorrect.
- THEREFORE - his post contained that which is wrong (1 & 2)
- Consul Augustus is a person who is wrong (2)
- Therefore, Consul Augustus is wrong.

Done and Done.

:D Proof me wrong!

PROVE

Yeah but Jesus could spell.

Ha! Nice try, but I am strong enough to live happily without resorting to the worship of some false idol. I can appreciate the beauty of life without relying on some abstract concept of a creator to find meaning. Meaning is in the act of living, not God anyway.

I think you need to re-examine your definition of "idol" and "abstract", but I'll let it slide for now with the proviso that I may return to it at any time.

Now .... you say life has no meaning, but you also say you appreciate the beauty of life. Hence, you believe that beauty = no meaning.

Since beauty and appreciation are, in fact, arbitrary and subjective, you have clearly proven that you grasp a fundamental basis of belief in the arbitrary, which lends itself to even further proof that you can accept, without question, the abstract.

Now I shall return to the definition of "idol".

1. a. An image used as an object of worship.
b. A false god.
2. One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.
3. Something visible but without substance.

Jews and Muslims do not fall into category 1a.
1b is completely subjective.
Category 2 cannot be held to the standards of Judaism or Islam either, as neither religion deifies anything in nature.
Category 3 cannot be held to the standards of Judaism, Islam, Christianity, or, well, just about any of the world's religions because almost all of them agree that the Divine is be felt and experienced, but not seen.

So, as a Muslim, I also do not require the "the worship of some false idol".

Nor do I feel that my chosen creator is abstract, but is a rather concrete belief shared by me and 1.3 billion of my brothers and sisters.

So, to summarize, you're clearly more religious than you think, you just don't realize it. You will find that which is right for you once you get over the need to denegrate others just to try to prove a point that you never had in the first place.

LOGICAL PROOF THAT CONSUL AUGUSTUS IS WRONG:

Given
1. That which is incorrect is wrong
2. That which is wrong, if created by a person, is therefore created by a person who is wrong.
3. A person who is wrong is wrong.

- Consul Augustus did not capitalize "Christianity" or "Santa Claus," and improperly used "Proof" - THEREFORE - his post contained that which was incorrect.
- THEREFORE - his post contained that which is wrong (1 & 2)
- Consul Augustus is a person who is wrong (2)
- Therefore, Consul Augustus is wrong.

Done and Done.

Amuzement value - 5/5
In-depthness - 2/5
Creativity - 4/5

Not bad, not bad at all ;)

But really, should a prophet be perfect? The prophet is only the channel which guides the word of god, it's the paper on which his word is written. If I damage a bible, doesn't it still contain the word of god (if it did so in the first place)?

And by the way, if Jesus had preached in his second language, probably latin, he would have made the casual spelling mistake :)

But now let me prove I am a true prophet. "Human existince is not for ever, there will be a day that sees the end of humankind!". There you go. Now compare this prophesy with any remark from the bible. Could you prove that my prophesy is in any way less true?

Could you prove that my prophesy is in any way less true?

Yes. Yes I could. I simply choose not too.

PROVE

Yeah but Jesus could spell.
is there evidence that jesus knew how to write?

While you're not a prophet of any organized relgion, you are a prophet of yourself. One thing that I want to know is why a god is necessary for meaning. I would think that the existence of a being so much more powerful than any of us that seems to care so little about our lives (look at the holocaust) and that obviously has a mindset so incredibly alien as to make it incomprehensible (an all powerful being whose goals are impossible to guess and whol lives outside of time and space) would make us puny humans feel even more meaningless. By contrast, without a higher being each human is individually powerful and thus so much more meaningful.

I'll leave you with this proof that a sentient, all powerful, all knowing god would never create the world.
-Every sentient being tries to achieve happiness
-An all powerful being could just banish all forms of guilt and boredom and give itself infinite pleasure for eternity, thus achieving happiness
-An all knowing being would know he could do this

I call this my "God jacks off for eternity" proof. Enjoy.

anyway
i think its harsh to call it fiction

religion is metaphor. it explains the unexplainable in ways that satisfy our most human selves.

it is seldom meant to be literally scientifically true, it holds truths that trancend "facts"

"Human existince is not for ever, there will be a day that sees the end of humankind!". There you go. Now compare this prophesy with any remark from the bible. Could you prove that my prophesy is in any way less true?

Genesis 8:21, translation from Hebrew (ie. not KJV or NIV):

"And the Lord smelled the sweet savour; and the Lord said in His heart: 'I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done, and all the days of the Earth shall never end."

Kinda proves your prophecy a shambles, don't it? ;)

How do we know the events discribed in the Torah really took place?

First off, here's a question for you. How do you we know anything in history happened? How do we know, for example, that Julius Ceaser ever lived? We know because of books, paintings, etc. that exist from that time period. No one alive today can claim they were there when Julius Ceaser was alive, yet no scientist or archiologist can claim that he never existed.

So then, how do we know the Bible events ever took place at all? Maybe they're just myths?

The Dead Sea Scrolls, descovered in 1947 have been dated to the period of the 2nd Temple. Note that more time has passed from Julius Ceasar's to our own then have passed from the Exodus from Egypt to the time of the writers of the scrolls, so if they had any reason whatsoever to doubt Moses, Joshua, the Judges, wouldn't they have just not tried to hard to write it down and make sure it is preserved well and hidden well for future generations?

How about some more. Since Darwin's Evolution Theory, nearly every scientist has labeled the Bible as incorrect with it's "7 day" creation. Well first off, who says 7 "days" are like the days we know? They could be 7 periods of time, no? And besides, the Bible says that less complex creatures in the waters appeared before more complex creatures on land. Isn't that what science is now confirming?

What about the Flood of Noah? Doesn't that sound weird? I mean a huge flod that destoryed everything. Sounds pretty mythie. So, let's go belong Judaism and look at other peoples, I mean if something as big as a flood happened, then wouldn't other nations know something about it? Sure enough they do, in fact, over 200 different nations/tribes/peoples have stories similar to the one in the Bible about a flood, including the Greek "Epic of Gilgamesh" where a man named Utnapishtim builds a boat, or maybe the Indian tradition of Satyavrata. How about the Mexican tradition of "Coxcox". More importantly, over 90% of these stories are all placed in the same time frame as the one in the Bible. Artifacts in the middle east also highly suggest that around this time populations in areas were dropping very quickly. So I guess everyone just made up the same story?

What about the Towel of Babel? I mean tall towers... in those days?! Impossible! Of course archeology in Iraq (Babel[onia]) has shown lots of large towers, some even over 100 feet tall!

Oh, and Ur Kasdim, Abraham's birthplace, was believed to not exist for hundreds of years. In the '20's, Sir Charles Wooley sent an archeological expedition to a possible sight of Ur Kasdim, along the Euphrates river. They found a city, which in the ancient Mesopotamian language (archeologists had already known this one) was called Ur Kaldi (in Hebrew it's called Kasdim). Turns out it was a well developed society, which was polytheistic and heavily involved in... wait can it be?...YES! idol worship! Seems the Bible was right about something at least.

The Torah also describes how Soddom and Amorrah were destroyed by God for their wickedness and that it was submerged under water. Soddom was located by the Dead Sea, which remains very salty today, and crusted trees rise up from under the water.

Let's learn a bit about other cultures? Abraham had a son with Hagar, Sarah's maid, whom they named Yishmael ("God has heard"). Arabs throught history have revered a man named "Ibra'im" and his son "Ismail" as whom they are descended from. Also, it has been an Arab custom to circumcise boys at the age of thirteen, the age that the Bible says Yishmael was circumcised at. (oh and remember, you should never use a preposition to end a sentance with ;D)

Anyways, the Bible tells how Joseph was given a purple robe and gold ring and such. Historical records show that at that time, that was exactly the way Egyptians honored people. Also, speaking of Egypt, it says in the Bible that Joseph was enbalmed after his death (basically he was mummified) which we all know is something the Egyptians did, yet, until that descovery, no one believed the Jews. Also, we know that the Jews built the cities of Pittom and Ramses. A rock tomb in Egypt in Thebes contains a series of paintings, depicting vizier Rekhmire, one has him holding a rod overseeing bricklaying done by foreighners (you can tell they are foreigners because they look really different then any Egyptian in a painting.) These foreighners are drawn with bears and skin lighter then that of the Egyptians. The ensctiption under it reads "Habiru hauled the stones for the Great Fortress of Pi-Ramses-Meni-Amun." Habiru really reminds me of the world Hebrews. Hmmm… Also, an ancient canal near Cairo is still called “Bahar Yusuf.”, “Joseph’s Canal.”

The Cairo Museum contains inscriptions with the Pharoah Merenptah’s victory over the Libians. It also has some other text, but it is partially cut off. What can be made out from that other text are the words “people of Israel.” That Pharoah came to power about 50 years after the Jews entered Israel under Joshua’s leadership, so it would have been enough time for them to become a well known nation.

The Philistines came from Caphtore, also known as Crete. Says the Bible, and so says archeology. Also, ruins of King Saul’s stables were found in Tell el Ful (Givah). They were traced back to Saul’s time.

I can go on and on, so shall I?

The “Black Obelism” was found in Ninevah, but is now in the British Museum shows Israel’s king Yeshu bowing to Assyrian king Shalmanesar III. Also, a Moabite stone found in Tell el Muteshillim reads “Omri king of Israel humbled Moab many years.” And in the Biblical land of Tyre (Assyria), an inscription reads “Esarhhadon. I gathered together the kings of Syria and the king from across the sea. Menashe, king of Judah. This agrees with the Bible in that Menashe was captured by Assyria. Of course the inscription doesn’t mention Esarhhadon’s defeat, but nothing in Assyrian artifacts mentions failures. (As opposed to the Bible which mentions tons (spies, golden calf, miriam’s thing, zeal, etc)

And finally, Susa, Persia (now Iran) was excavated by French archaeologist Macel Dielefoy, and he concluded that whoever wrote the story of Esther had to have lived at the time and known the palace very well, because everything matched up. And speaking of holidsays, it’s important to know that coins from the time of Chanukah still exist. A mikveh (bathe house) has been found and traced to second temple period, and checked. Turns out it was built and operated under the laws in the Torah.

my teacher in my world religions class showed us some scenarios one day:

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
GAIN: you live in paradise forever

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
LOSE: you suffer eternal punishment

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

but that's only if you really care about odds

my teacher in my world religions class showed us some scenarios one day:


Pascal's Wager has been debunked for hundreds of years. It only takes into account the choice between Catholicism and Atheism and that's it. Stop bringing it up. It's stupid and Pascal was a fool.

The Dalai Lama says that the purpose of any religion is to produce better people. If people actually followed the tenets of thier chosen or given religion, then there would be a lot of good and better people, and that is a definite unproven fact.

Genesis 8:21, translation from Hebrew (ie. not KJV or NIV):

"And the Lord smelled the sweet savour; and the Lord said in His heart: 'I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done, and all the days of the Earth shall never end."

Kinda proves your prophecy a shambles, don't it? ;)

Or my prophecy proves the bible is wrong :D

Really, I'm serious: God is all-knowing, so he can't disagree with himself. Through me He said that human existence will end, while it says in the bible that human existence will not end. That means either me or the bible is wrong. So it's my word against the word of eh Moses was it? I cannot imagine a way to prove that Moses is more true then me (or Jesus, or Muhammed, etc).

That means I'm still a prophet :cool:

my teacher in my world religions class showed us some scenarios one day:

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
GAIN: you live in paradise forever

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
LOSE: you suffer eternal punishment

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

but that's only if you really care about odds

I don't agree with the second one: 'you believe in christ and heaven doesnt exist, means no gain or lose'.
A lot of people give up part of their joy in life in order to gain access to a heaven, some even give up their lives entirely for it. So for a lot of people this scenario means a quite heavy loss.

so the conclusion is ...religion is fiction



next thread please

While you're not a prophet of any organized relgion, you are a prophet of yourself. One thing that I want to know is why a god is necessary for meaning. I would think that the existence of a being so much more powerful than any of us that seems to care so little about our lives (look at the holocaust) and that obviously has a mindset so incredibly alien as to make it incomprehensible (an all powerful being whose goals are impossible to guess and whol lives outside of time and space) would make us puny humans feel even more meaningless. By contrast, without a higher being each human is individually powerful and thus so much more meaningful.

I'll leave you with this proof that a sentient, all powerful, all knowing god would never create the world.
-Every sentient being tries to achieve happiness
-An all powerful being could just banish all forms of guilt and boredom and give itself infinite pleasure for eternity, thus achieving happiness
-An all knowing being would know he could do this

I call this my "God jacks off for eternity" proof. Enjoy.

You are a hypocrite, and while I don't think you're stupid, I do find you to be remarkably unenlightened and juvinile.

The reason that God has allowed such things as the holocaust, 9/11, and starvation to happen despite the fact that He was the one who created us, and the reason why he doesn't jack off for eternity, is already explained in your post. However, since you probably won't grasp it yourself, let me requote you "obviously has a mindset so incredibly alien as to make it incomprehensible" this is a scriptural principal. Men cannot understand the mind of God. However, He probably wasn't happy with Hitler, and likely mourned the deaths of so many of His chosen people.

The bible is too complex and intertwined to be made up, there are no contradictions - if you dont belive that try and point one out to me. And anyway the trinity is far too complex for anyone to explain so how could it have been thought up out of the blue? All these 40 odd different writers, many of which had never even heard of each other, never mind spoken and conferred with each other, they lived over a period of about 2000 years (taking Moses to be the first writer in about 3000 BC and John the apostle to be the last writer in about 70-90 AD) how could they all have though this up? only one answer, God, the creator of heaven and earth (im not debating creation evolution here) gave them the inspiration - 'All scripture is given by inspiration of God' 2Timothy ch3v16. If you have any answers or issues you wish to debate to this please telegram me and i'l debate it with you over email. But one last point: if christianity is wrong, than all us christians have wasted our lives following some fake illusion and when we die, we die. however if christianty is not wrong then we will go to be with God in heaven and those who dont believe it and have a faith in it will be screwed.

Wow! Another forum for religious people and anti-religious people to bash each other over questions no one will have the ultimate answer to until they die.

What a good idea.

Genesis 8:21, translation from Hebrew (ie. not KJV or NIV):


It's very difficult to get ahold of an actual Torah, so unless you are in fact Jewish, I doubt this is a litteral translation. Many other translations exist, I have a Bible that inside has the HKJV, NIV, NLT, and NAS(revised) translations side by side, and by using all four some grasp of the original hebrew can be achieved. Have you ever tried to translate anything to or from english? A lot of words carry over poorly because the language functions differently, and English, despite it's massive word capacity, doesn't have the right words to describe some things. That's why we end up being left speechless, because we feel things that english cannot properly connotate.

Another religious debate thread? Why didn't you open it with: "ALL CHRISTIANS/ATHEISTS ARE WRONG!!!!" Just curious.

I accept the existence of the Bible, Jesus, a huge flood, and God; because without God (or some sort of divinity) existence is meaningless.


this may have been asked before but to be hoinest there are about 9 thousand threads of this nature and i couldn't be bothered re-reading all of them. but, why is existence meaningless without god? do we not qualify our lives by our own actions and the way in which we embrace our fellow humans. kick a cat

Has anyone read the book The Da Vinci Code? It's excessively good and raises some good points about religion.
The da Vinci Code is a load of you-know-what.

my teacher in my world religions class showed us some scenarios one day:

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
GAIN: you live in paradise forever

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
LOSE: you suffer eternal punishment

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

but that's only if you really care about odds

For being so originally based in scripture the US has some really distorted views, which one of these people believe is irrelevant compared to which one is true.

Have you ever tried to translate anything to or from english?
Latin poetry is hell. :p

I prefer it that way.
So god exists to make people feel better? (And I honestly think this is true of a large majority of people that believe in religion)

Why does it have to be fact? (I guess the illusion of something actually being “out there” is only complete only if you think it is true)

You people need to worship demons for awhile. I did, and for all of you who believe that spirits don't exist, telegram me. Then sit down in a nice quiet room and call out to some of the names I'll be happy to give you, then start doing what they lead you to do. You'll believe before long, and may God reach you before you're to fargone. I was fortunate enough to be one such case

my teacher in my world religions class showed us some scenarios one day:

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
GAIN: you live in paradise forever

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
LOSE: you suffer eternal punishment

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

but that's only if you really care about odds


That’s assuming you picked the correct religion to believe ... what if the scenario is

You believe in Christ But heaven is in fact spirit re-incarnation

Then you are boned

And there are literally thousands of religions out there … how do you know you have picked the right one? Cause yours is currently the most popular?

This seems to have turned into a debate between Christianity and Aethiesm/Agnosticism. I thought this thread was for general religous debate? I myself, am neither. I follow the Goddess, and so I know that She exists. Religion is a fact of life.

I have read some very good arguments in this one (apparantly the idiots haven't arrived to piss people off yet), and I must say I am impressed. Yes, there is archeological proof that things in the Bible have happened. Yes, that same proof in places can be used to disprove the Bible.

But I have a question (and don't try to shoot this back at me, I follow no religous texts, and as far as I know, none are in existance for the Goddess, so the point on me, is moot.): While there is proof that Jesus existed, the Jews have been persecuted, and many other things (which I thank Romish Maldova for pointing out), but this still leaves no evidence of any sort of deity, so where can you conclusivly prove to a non-believer that God exists?

Or, if that bores you, how about this:

If you are Christian, I would like to see you attempt to disprove God.
If you are Aethiest/Agnostic, let us see you prove that God exists.

Maybe we can all learn something about eachothers veiws in this method.

Any other religions out there: Let us all here what you think about this debate.

This should be interesting, no?

That’s assuming you picked the correct religion to believe ... what if the scenario is

You believe in Christ But heaven is in fact spirit re-incarnation

Then you are boned

And there are literally thousands of religions out there … how do you know you have picked the right one? Cause yours is currently the most popular?

This is where the principal of faith comes in. I personally have what are probably some pretty unique views on reincarnaiton. I think it's probably a tool that God uses when he wants someone to learn something they failed to learn the first time. Am I a heretic and a hypocrite for saying it? Not necessarily, because ultimately it's God's call not mine, I just believe in the possibility.

If you are Christian, I would like to see you attempt to disprove God.
If you are Aethiest/Agnostic, let us see you prove that God exists.


Don't say things like this, it makes you sound like a masochistic submoron, and based on your manner of typing and simple word usage, I can tell that's not the case, curiosity is rarely good grounds to try something. just look at the darwin awards.

just look at the darwin awards.


Oh, how I love those things ^_^. I did edit my post after you got to it (before I knew you had), realising I had left something out: That in doing this, maybe we can learn something about eachothers views.

I feel that this is an important part of debate that too many overlook.

This is where the principal of faith comes in. I personally have what are probably some pretty unique views on reincarnaiton. I think it's probably a tool that God uses when he wants someone to learn something they failed to learn the first time. Am I a heretic and a hypocrite for saying it? Not necessarily, because ultimately it's God's call not mine, I just believe in the possibility.
Maybe it is my stats and computer like thinking but personally I would not be able to trust those odds …
And lets say there was a god … I think he would be just as happy or happier with me being skeptical (agnostic) then if I took a random guess and managed to pick a religion I totally believed in but did not jive with his views

Maybe it is my stats and computer like thinking but personally I would not be able to trust those odds …
And lets say there was a god … I think he would be just as happy or happier with me being skeptical (agnostic) then if I took a random guess and managed to pick a religion I totally believed in but did not jive with his views

He has shown me my path, and as long as He continues to guide me on it, I'll follow Him. I didn't take out a big chart with all the religions on it and say "Where m'finger lands is what Ah'm gonna do." The word random is completely misplaced

He has shown me my path, and as long as He continues to guide me on it, I'll follow Him. I didn't take out a big chart with all the religions on it and say "Where m'finger lands is what Ah'm gonna do."
But you essentially went ... ahhhh this feels right … I think ill stay here (does not mean the religion is right just that it agreed with your feelings at the time)

Well, if you people would excuse me from this terribly entertaining debate (no joke, I do find this interesting), I think I am going to go. Peace peoples.

But you essentially went ... ahhhh this feels right … I think ill stay here (does not mean the religion is right just that it agreed with your feelings at the time)

No, I sat in my room listening to music thinking about what my life would be like sharing in the joy my sister and friend Dustin found in God, rather than squandering in depression and demon worship. The more I thought about it I realized all I had to do was make that choice. He put those two people in my life at that time and place for a reason, then I chose Him.

No, I sat in my room listening to music thinking about what my life would be like sharing in the joy my sister and friend Dustin found in God, rather than squandering in depression and demon worship. The more I thought about it I realized all I had to do was make that choice. He put those two people in my life at that time and place for a reason, then I chose Him.
Or random chance did ... but I have more faith in random chance

So it comes down to faith as to whether or not it was God or coincidence. I've seen way to much happen to believe in coincidences anymore. There is very little that isn't done deliberately. Hey, take me up on that names bit I posted awhile back. Well then again, if you're this much of a skeptic, they may not see fit to oblige you. Demons prefer willing, faithful hosts.

So it comes down to faith as to whether or not it was God or coincidence. I've seen way to much happen to believe in coincidences anymore. There is very little that isn't done deliberately. Hey, take me up on that names bit I posted awhile back. Well then again, if you're this much of a skeptic, they may not see fit to oblige you. Demons prefer willing, faithful hosts.
Don’t worry I am this skeptical about EVERYTHING :) I understand the necessity of things don’t get me wrong but I make sure I think about what I choose is “necessary” and of course have faith in something’s … that’s un avoidable … just try not to have too much blind faith

Don’t worry I am this skeptical about EVERYTHING :) I understand the necessity of things don’t get me wrong but I make sure I think about what I choose is “necessary” and of course have faith in something’s … that’s un avoidable … just try not to have too much blind faith

Would it still be blind faith if I've been given visions? Or at that point have I seen some trace of the divine? Or does that just make me a looney? Or is it some unexplained phenomenon this having visions? Do you even have the answer?

I prefer it that way.

Aren't you man enough to make the meaning of your life? What you do is who you are -- end of story.

is there evidence that jesus knew how to write?
Only if you've read the Bible. Somewhere along the Path this Post went haywire.

my teacher in my world religions class showed us some scenarios one day:

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
GAIN: you live in paradise forever

You Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Really Exists
LOSE: you suffer eternal punishment

You Don't Believe in Christ and Heaven Doesn't Exist
NEITHER GAIN OR LOSE: nothing happens, you're dead

but that's only if you really care about odds

I think it is more accurate to say:

You believe in a God and a God exists
You spiritually gain, but only as long as it is the same God and you're honouring them correctly, so choose wisely or it's the Fires Of Damnation (or the Ice Plains Of The Giant Penguin People) for you...
You could gain or lose on the physical plain, it depends if your choice meshes well with the culture you live in, but perhaps that doesn't matter if you've got it right and are getting your eternity of reward (or punishment) anyway.

You believe in a God and yet no God exists
You do not spiritually lose, because there is no difference in destination (oblivion?) between those who did and did not believe.
Physically, you lose out if you do not mesh well enough with opinions of the real world. (Edit: But could gain if you do! I meant to mention that!)

You do not believe in a God and a God exists
Spiritually you aren't prepared, so may well go to Hell, but then again perhaps the diety that exists has lenience when it comes to 'innocents' (who were never taught about Them) and non-believers who nonetheless conduct their life in an manner that does not displease them.
Physically, you could easily lose out if incompatible with the culture, but could eek out a little more excitement from life than your thiestic bretheren (without too much risk of annoying the God that exists) if you're generally a good member of humanity.

You do not believe in a God and no God exists
Spiritually there's no difference.
Physically, it depends on how you conduct yourself in this world. You could gain loads. (Though a wise person unknowingly in a world governed by this rule would, in the absence of absolute proof, probably find it best to bear in mind the possibility of this not being the correct option and want to hege their bets and temper their excesses to allow for the possibility of the previous option.

Fatalism
You're in a rut. What you do, think, believe and will end up like (and whether/if there are afterlives and which one(s) you might end up visiting, if there are) are predestined. Go with the flow. Do what you want (you're going to anyway) whether that be to run amuck with a gun or go live as a religious recluse. I'm not going to change you, because it was destined that these words of mine would be written and that you would read them and that whatever you did in reaction to them was going to occur as well. How about that as a product disclaimer... :)



(PS. Note that "a God" can be used to refer to non-God spiritual realities, such as deterministic reincarnation.

Aren't you man enough to make the meaning of your life? What you do is who you are -- end of story.

I see your point,but I see fit to follow, not think. Besides, pretend God is real for a moment, and you've been creating your own meaning, when an all-knowing creator has had something better in mind for you the entire time. Whose plan looks better in that light?

Only if you've read the Bible.

yeah, he wrote in the sand at least once. But he may have been drawing. Assuming that he was indeed God made flesh, things like language barriers and literacy would have meant very little to Him.

Would it still be blind faith if I've been given visions? Or at that point have I seen some trace of the divine? Or does that just make me a looney? Or is it some unexplained phenomenon this having visions? Do you even have the answer?

But personally have had no visions ... I have had urges to believe one thing or another but I can see they were out of want to believe something not because of any info (and never quite the same thing)

I guess I just understand myself …
If proof were put forward I probably would believe

But so far no proof (and “good” things don’t count … could get into an argument about objective “good” as well as objective truth)

I don’t want to believe something because I need it … I want to believe it cause it is true

I follow the Goddess, and so I know that She exists. Religion is a fact of life.

Nooo another feel-good semi-religion has born :( How do you know this goddess is not your imagination, how do you know she exists?

(by the way, you might want to consider registering your new religion, here in Nederland it'll get you some handsome government funding, they'd even allow you to start your own, gov'nt funded, schoolsystem :) )

If you are Christian, I would like to see you attempt to disprove God.
If you are Aethiest/Agnostic, let us see you prove that God exists.

Maybe we can all learn something about eachothers veiws in this method.


Ok sounds good. That would mean arguing for the existence of a god in my case. The problem is, I don't know how to start..How can I prove something that's inherently improvable? :confused:

Anyway, I do think I understand why people believe. Religion is a feeling.

As a child they told me stories about good people who suffered on earth, but were greated as saints in heaven. It felt good, it felt just. Religion is a warm feeling, the idea of a 'good father' who's always with you, who knows you did try your best, who understands your problems.

Sometimes I wish I could believe, but I can't. I cannot believe that there's something up there that doesnt comply to the laws of physics. I cannot believe that the bible or any religious text is anything more than a collection of stories compiled by humans. I cannot help questioning this 'warm feeling of being watched over', which I think is a definition of religion.

The sad fate of a scientist ;)

But personally have had no visions ... I have had urges to believe one thing or another but I can see they were out of want to believe something not because of any info (and never quite the same thing)

I guess I just understand myself …
If proof were put forward I probably would believe

But so far no proof (and “good” things don’t count … could get into an argument about objective “good” as well as objective truth)

I don’t want to believe something because I need it … I want to believe it cause it is true

I definitively agree that truth is more important than belief. I also have faith that what I believe is true. As per scripture, Jesus saying "I am the way the truth, and the life."

I definitively agree that truth is more important than belief. I also have faith that what I believe is true. As per scripture, Jesus saying "I am the way the truth, and the life."
Now you see why I am agostic ...
you have found proof enough for you ... thats good I guess I have not found mine yet if it exists (I am fairly diehard skeptic)

Does it matter?

Nearly everyone here is thinking FAR too much.
There is no way to prove or disprove the existance or non-existance of God.

Faith and some old stories don't prove anything. Sorry religous people.

Reason and logic can't disprove the existance of the supernatural. Sorry Atheists.


I personally don't believe in God, but that's me. We all have our own belief constructs handed down to us by our cultures. The only truth is that we don't know anything about ANYTHING when it comes to religion/spirituality.

One of our biggest problems as a species has stemmed from needless fighting over religion. Who cares what God whoever believes in or not? I don't.

Everyone - and I don't just mean on this forum - needs to chill the hell out (espescially those RED STATES) when it comes to religion. We all focus on how we are all different and not what makes us all alike.

My final advice is to have everyone around the world put on the song "Maggot Brain" by Funkadelic, chill the hell out, and get in a good frame of mind. :D

I believe there is religion, but I think God is a Load of rubbish

People think of God as one person who runs everything, but surely if one being, no matter how devine, ruled every aspect of the world they would go mad with power? And If god is so great why does he kill off millions of his followers?

Does it matter?
People are basing their whole life’s on it … not to mention effecting others life’s (through rules or charity or other means)



I guess that puts it in the realm of “mattering” to me

Nooo another feel-good semi-religion has born :( How do you know this goddess is not your imagination, how do you know she exists?

(by the way, you might want to consider registering your new religion, here in Nederland it'll get you some handsome government funding, they'd even allow you to start your own, gov'nt funded, schoolsystem :) )



Ok sounds good. That would mean arguing for the existence of a god in my case. The problem is, I don't know how to start..How can I prove something that's inherently improvable? :confused:

Anyway, I do think I understand why people believe. Religion is a feeling.

As a child they told me stories about good people who suffered on earth, but were greated as saints in heaven. It felt good, it felt just. Religion is a warm feeling, the idea of a 'good father' who's always with you, who knows you did try your best, who understands your problems.

Sometimes I wish I could believe, but I can't. I cannot believe that there's something up there that doesnt comply to the laws of physics. I cannot believe that the bible or any religious text is anything more than a collection of stories compiled by humans. I cannot help questioning this 'warm feeling of being watched over', which I think is a definition of religion.

The sad fate of a scientist ;)

According to us, God created physics. In what ways does he not comply? Oh, and if it's the walking on water thing, it's kind of an isolated incident, and He is the Son of God, if it's rebuking storms, I've done that before (though not as big as the one Jesus rebuked), and if it's something else, well, tell on.

Listen Guys,
God Made Grass
Man Made Weed
Who do you Trust?

Listen Guys,
God Made Grass
Man Made Weed
Who do you Trust?

Umm...they are both plants...God made both. :p

According to us, God created physics. In what ways does he not comply? Oh, and if it's the walking on water thing, it's kind of an isolated incident, and He is the Son of God, if it's rebuking storms, I've done that before (though not as big as the one Jesus rebuked), and if it's something else, well, tell on.

Well it's not some action of his that doesnt comply with physics, it's his whole existence. Do you believe that there's a man sitting on a solid cloud, with a material body etc? Or that god is a 'being' that exists 'nowhere and everywhere', which has 'no shape and every shape' at the same time? Either case, physics don't comply.

Umm...they are both plants...God made both. :p

Actually no
God made both the plants, but man was the person who made weed into a recreational drug bye deciding to smoke it there for man made weed.

I believe there is religion, but I think God is a Load of rubbish

People think of God as one person who runs everything, but surely if one being, no matter how devine, ruled every aspect of the world they would go mad with power? And If god is so great why does he kill off millions of his followers?

He hasn't killed anyone in recent days. Truth is He is incorruptible, and far beyond our comprehension. That is why he hasn't gone "mad with power" as you say. And He doesn't kill them, what most of my brothers and sisters would refer to as "heathens" do. I think they are simply misguided and believe that no one is beyond redemption. We Christians need to stop condemning everything else, we're not helping His Majesty, we need to start being better demonstrations of His perfect love.

He hasn't killed anyone in recent days. Truth is He is incorruptible, and far beyond our comprehension. That is why he hasn't gone "mad with power" as you say. And He doesn't kill them, what most of my brothers and sisters would refer to as "heathens" do. I think they are simply misguided and believe that no one is beyond redemption. We Christians need to stop condemning everything else, we're not helping His Majesty, we need to start being better demonstrations of His perfect love.

If this is true, then why did Hitler start the hollocaust?

Jews and Christians both believe in exactly the same god, and yet Hitler said that Jews where heathen. If god is devine then why did he not strike Hitler down?

Well it's not some action of his that doesnt comply with physics, it's his whole existence. Do you believe that there's a man sitting on a solid cloud, with a material body etc? Or that god is a 'being' that exists 'nowhere and everywhere', which has 'no shape and every shape' at the same time? Either case, physics don't comply.

Me trying to explain God to a physicist is like a physicist trying to explain the physics of universal movement to a Christian spiritualist. We're just not gonna be able to manage. Our two lives deal with far to drastically different things.

If this is true, then why did Hitler start the hollocaust?

Jews and Christians both believe in exactly the same god, and yet Hitler said that Jews where heathen. If god is devine then why did he not strike Hitler down?

He hasn't smote anyone since Jesus came. Yes, the Jews are His chosen people, but Jesus came as a way to salvation for all men. He didn't abolish free will. That's why Hitler did as he did. He had a powerful spirit, albeit evil, and Germany was looking for a powerful leader. He fit the bill for that, but had some extremist and highly distorted views, but he still had free will. Thats whay a good number of people don't like the Jews, because they are His chosen.

I was just reminded of a great joke.

A scientist walks into the Throneroom and stands before the Lord. He says "God, we don't need you anymore, we have discovered how to create life from nothing, just as you can." God says "Really, well show me." So the scientist reaches down and picks up a handful of dirt to make a person out of it and God says "Wait, use your own dirt." :p

I was just reminded of a great joke.

A scientist walks into the Throneroom and stands before the Lord. He says "God, we don't need you anymore, we have discovered how to create life from nothing, just as you can." God says "Really, well show me." So the scientist reaches down and picks up a handful of dirt to make a person out of it and God says "Wait, use your own dirt." :p
Ohhh making his own dirt ... a toughy ... but bet the scientist gets it down by the time the year is out ;)

Ohhh making his own dirt ... a toughy ... but bet the scientist gets it down by the time the year is out ;)

lol

Well, both science and spirituality are in the same boat. There's just stuff that one side can't explain without the other, and to many people are interested in proving themselves right and everything else wrong to just believe in both. Just yesterday, I posted on a thread about evolution, something along the lines of God creating us with the capacity to grow, adapt, and evolve. Problem is, neither one can disprove the other, and both are widely accepted.

well, this is an interesting millionth religious/antireligious thread...

as for these so-called religious experiances everyone's so keen to make so vague references to, that allow you to "know" that your deity exists, can we have some elaboration please... if you've been "possessed by demons" how the hell do you know it's not just your mind messing with you? thats a very big complicated unexplained organ sitting behind your eyes, and it's still quite easily decieved.

what I hate about these threads is that they are almost always only discussed as if there is christianity and athiesm and a few irrelevant alternatives. what about buddism and hinduism, islam?

just because a lot of the historical aspects of the bible are true does not mean god exists, ok? I think it's very likely that jesus and mary and the rest did exist (although as far genesis is concerned, if you can't guess what I think about that from my post, you're an idiot) what I severely doubt is that jesus was the son of god, as that would mean believing god existed.

you're all happy to refer to a load of old testement hebrew scripture, while, you're at it ...... what is also never addressed is the book of Leviticus... excuse me, can anyone stand up having read that and try to tell me that the average modern day christian lives by a single one of those rules? I don't see you sacrificing doves, pigeons or bulls, or washing your clothes every time you go to the toilet or have sex... if THAT is staying "clean" according to christianity, how are any of you going to heaven?

I don't see why you even try to prove or disprove god, religion is set up to discourage people from disproving it, there's always have some small print with "erm, god moves in mysterious ways" or "I dunno, satan did it" please. you're trying to say the earth is 5000 years old?

I don't care if people want to spend their lives religiously, it's theirs to use however they please. what I dislike is religious teaching of a child at the age at which they will believe anything you tell them onwards. it amounts to indoctrination. finally....

LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL AND IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND BUT MEANINGLESS. GET OVER IT!
enjoy it.

well, this is an interesting millionth religious/antireligious thread...

as for these so-called religious experiances everyone's so keen to make so vague references to, that allow you to "know" that your deity exists, can we have some elaboration please... if you've been "possessed by demons" how the hell do you know it's not just your mind messing with you? thats a very big complicated unexplained organ sitting behind your eyes, and it's still quite easily decieved.

what I hate about these threads is that they are almost always only discussed as if there is christianity and athiesm and a few irrelevant alternatives. what about buddism and hinduism, islam?

just because a lot of the historical aspects of the bible are true does not mean god exists, ok? I think it's very likely that jesus and mary and the rest did exist (although as far genesis is concerned, if you can't guess what I think about that from my post, you're an idiot) what I severely doubt is that jesus was the son of god, as that would mean believing god existed.

you're all happy to refer to a load of old testement hebrew scripture, while, you're at it ...... what is also never addressed is the book of Leviticus... excuse me, can anyone stand up having read that and try to tell me that the average modern day christian lives by a single one of those rules? I don't see you sacrificing doves, pigeons or bulls, or washing your clothes every time you go to the toilet or have sex... if THAT is staying "clean" according to christianity, how are any of you going to heaven?

I don't see why you even try to prove or disprove god, religion is set up to discourage people from disproving it, there's always have some small print with "erm, god moves in mysterious ways" or "I dunno, satan did it" please. you're trying to say the earth is 5000 years old?

I don't care if people want to spend their lives religiously, it's theirs to use however they please. what I dislike is religious teaching of a child at the age at which they will believe anything you tell them onwards. it amounts to indoctrination. finally....

LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL AND IMPOSSIBLE TO UNDERSTAND BUT MEANINGLESS. GET OVER IT!
enjoy it.

We don't need to sacrifice anymore because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. The rest of this is essentially flaming and we were having a legitimate discussion before you barged in here. Also I was never posessed, I hosted and worshipped a demon willingly, there's a big difference. As for the Buddhists, hindus, and islamics, we had some islamics posting, but they left, and no buddhists or hindus have yet to come, that is why they are unaccounted for. We also had someone posting whom I believe was wiccan since they made a direct reference to the goddess.

Religion and superstition serve the psychological purpose of giving people a sense of hope in situations where they have no control. Some even contend belief in the supernatural is a survival mechanism that has been passed down genetically through the process of evolution.
People have always attributed supernatural explanations to everything they don’t understand or feel unable to cope with. There have been gods of the sun, sea, harvest, thunder, lakes, deserts, stars, love, birth, war, lightning, etc. Also when people are faced with death, the possibility of totally ceasing to exist as a conscious entity is so unbearable they can’t accept it and must believe in a supernatural continuation of their existence in order to cope.
Some things we have answers for and no longer need to attribute to gods such as rain, thunder, the sun coming up, etc. Other things we have no clear answers for such as , the nature of time, and why Uncle Dan was hit by a truck, some of us still attribute to supernatural reasons.
I contend that there is no evidence for the existence of gods or the supernatural. Not having an answer to a question does not constitute proof or a viable explanation. So far, the only “evidence” I’ve seen from theists is: “you can’t prove there is no god”, the question, “how did all of this get here?”, or the statement “we’re so much better off with a belief in god”.

Religion and superstition serve the psychological purpose of giving people a sense of hope in situations where they have no control. Some even contend belief in the supernatural is a survival mechanism that has been passed down genetically through the process of evolution.
People have always attributed supernatural explanations to everything they don’t understand or feel unable to cope with. There have been gods of the sun, sea, harvest, thunder, lakes, deserts, stars, love, birth, war, lightning, etc. Also when people are faced with death, the possibility of totally ceasing to exist as a conscious entity is so unbearable they can’t accept it and must believe in a supernatural continuation of their existence in order to cope.
Some things we have answers for and no longer need to attribute to gods such as rain, thunder, the sun coming up, etc. Other things we have no clear answers for such as , the nature of time, and why Uncle Dan was hit by a truck, some of us still attribute to supernatural reasons.
I contend that there is no evidence for the existence of gods or the supernatural. Not having an answer to a question does not constitute proof or a viable explanation. So far, the only “evidence” I’ve seen from theists is: “you can’t prove there is no god”, the question, “how did all of this get here?”, or the statement “we’re so much better off with a belief in god”.

Well well well, I would dare to call you borderline brilliant. However, He hasn't allowed Himself to be proven scientifically for a reason, that would negate the need for faith.

Well well well, I would dare to call you borderline brilliant. However, He hasn't allowed Himself to be proven scientifically for a reason, that would negate the need for faith.
That's simply another version of “you can’t prove there is no god”. Faith is all you theists really have.

That's simply another version of “you can’t prove there is no god”. Faith is all you theists really have.

Do you not realize that I didn't contradict you? Faith is simply what is required of us and all we need.

I think our intelligence makes us ask questions about the world and where it came from, why we have to die, why there is pain. In the past there was no science so someone invented Gods to explain the worlds existence. A god would be a tree, a river, an animal. Then people realised they wern't gods, so they decided there must be unseen forces. Pantheistic Gods sprang up, which were very human, but supernatural. They could be used to form more complex societies where the population could be controlled using organised religion.

Then the idea of one God emerged, meaning the local deities of cities and regions could be eliminated and the whole area could worship the same God, mening more control for the rulers and for the religion. It was a very good symbiotic relationship. People could be stopped from causing crimes to the state by using the fear and guilt of retribution from a God.

We then come to the age of empires and people began to realise that these greedy people in power were really quite nasty, and so rebels and guerrillas began to form in the undderground. New ideas about morality began to form, and one mans idea of morality was so good, he thought he must be the son of god. He then took an old religion and gave it a new twist, and managed to get himself to live forever in the empire which he hated so much. Ironically.

The only proof we have of his divinity is a few biased accounts of his miracles. Four contradicting gospels, and a church which has become a parody of itself, because it, in turn has become corrupt.

Now knowlege has increased, we realise we are probably the closest thing to a God that has ever existed on this planet, and soon there will be no need for religion, and people will amke the most of the life they have left, and love life. Accepting one day you will no longer exist, is quite liberating.

Although I would hate to entirely dismiss the fact that there could be a higher being out there, but why he would punish you for your mistakes, or why he would want to destroy the world he created, or send people to an eternal punishment, when he isn't very noticable in the world (apart from the very creation he made?) is a bit unconvincing. What the hell he would do with a book is a bit limiting for an omnipotent God. He really cares about the illiterate!

There is no hell, or heaven. There could be a spirit, but I imagine like most things in the world, there is no distinction between a bad spirit or a good one. Good or bad is only relevant to the observor. Its also very black and white, which is a silly way to look at things in life.

The people that tend to do all the "bad" things are the ones who have had quite a lot of bad done to them, its done from fear and from pain. Nobody wants to go out and do bad unless they think it will be the better option in the long run. 100 years ago it was seen as moral to allow the state to kill people, now it is not. Now being gay, black, or female is no longer a limiting experience. It was morally correct 100 years ago.

Having a God to worship is out of fear for not wanting to take responsibility for your own actions, or out of fear for living how you want to live. The only control God has over you is fear. I have been told to love God, but I can't love a God who would send my non-religious friends to hell. My family who have died, would also have gone here, which disgraces me, as they were "good" people.

God is an evil, controlling concept, which in todays day and age, after it has been disproven by all the science we know, should be banned. Religions now just cause conflict in the world. Look at 9/11 etc.

So yes, a load of fiction that should be left to the past. :)

Do you not realize that I didn't contradict you? Faith is simply what is required of us and all we need.

Yup. It's just that belief in something with no evidence is living a lie. It also causes wars, hinders scientific and social advancements in some cases, and is an excuse for repression. Therefore it's worth discussing.

1. God and spirituality do nothing to try and disprove science and vice versa.

2. Certainly worth discussing not worth flaming.

Yup. It's just that belief in something with no evidence is living a lie. It also causes wars, hinders scientific and social advancements in some cases, and is an excuse for repression. Therefore it's worth discussing.

The living a lie bit is based on perceptions, and as far as most Christians are concerned, everyone else lives a lie. Not to sure on that one, it's for God to decide not me. As for the negatives it causes that is spawned from corrupt religious leaders who are more interested in power then spiritual growth and development, and are undoubtedly poor representations of God's love, which is what we are actually supposed to be. You can't condemn someone into believing.

Yup. It's just that belief in something with no evidence is living a lie. It also causes wars, hinders scientific and social advancements in some cases, and is an excuse for repression. Therefore it's worth discussing.

Hear hear.

The church muscles in on everything nowadays it doesnt like. And they affect other peoples lives, who don't care about religion. Look at things like abortion, gay marriage, slavery, black rights, Islam, divorce, stem cell research, evolution, big bang theory, the list is endless.

If you want to follow some belief, thats fine, but please don't enforce it on other people with common sense. :mad:

Hear hear.

The church muscles in on everything nowadays it doesnt like. And they affect other peoples lives, who don't care about religion. Look at things like abortion, gay marriage, slavery, black rights, Islam, divorce, stem cell research, evolution, big bang theory, the list is endless.

If you want to follow some belief, thats fine, but please don't enforce it on other people with common sense. :mad:

Gays are declared an abomination before God in the old testement, sorry fellas. I don't believe that that automatically condemns them to hell, since that would remove all worth from Jesus' sacrifice. As for muscling in on things, that's a piss poor way for us to work, but my brothers and sisters see fit to do it anyway. We are supposed to be demonstrating the will of a loving God, but most people are deluded and see fit to condemn everything they don't like, including the very scriptures of a God they supposedly serve.

I think that even if no deities exist, religion is useful for providing guidelines with which people can live e.g. do not murder etc. However, it can also be counterproductive when forced upon people and followed to the point of idiocy.

In my own personal philosophy it doesn't matter whether there's a god or not - I believe in evolution and the big bang etc... but maybe a god put everything there in the first place to go bang and evolve.
I believe that when you look at all the complex beauty in the world it's more amazing to think that it arose by chance and not by conscious design.

The living a lie bit is based on perceptions, and as far as most Christians are concerned, everyone else lives a lie. Not to sure on that one, it's for God to decide not me. As for the negatives it causes that is spawned from corrupt religious leaders who are more interested in power then spiritual growth and development, and are undoubtedly poor representations of God's love, which is what we are actually supposed to be. You can't condemn someone into believing.

How can it be a lie, when everyone else (secular) believe in what they can see, smell, taste, hear, touch, feel? We are just facing reality. But I suppose that argument is never going to be resolved. I just feel such a loving God would never make human beings have to believe in him so they can go to hell, by not being "physical". And why would a God feel the need to create? That would give him a human characteristic.

These corrupt religious leaders are the problem. As there is no way to see a persons intentions, they can say all sorts of mumbo-jumbo to get people thinking they are good. They can followers to say or do anything, and there is nothing to stop them. Look at things like the Waco incident, or the Spanish Inquisition, all done in the name of religion. If you start saying God told me this, or God told me that, there is nothing you can do to disprove it, so you are wandering about aimlessly following peoples whimsical imaginations. I'd rather stay with the facts. I really don't think a God would rely on such ridiculous farcical nonsense. How do you know who to believe or follow?

You can condemn someone into believing. Just look at medieval times and the time when the bible was wrote. Yes non-believers were all sacrificed because they dared to question the foolish rulers, and their "God". :headbang:

Gays are declared an abomination before God in the old testement, sorry fellas. I don't believe that that automatically condemns them to hell, since that would remove all worth from Jesus' sacrifice. As for muscling in on things, that's a piss poor way for us to work, but my brothers and sisters see fit to do it anyway. We are supposed to be demonstrating the will of a loving God, but most people are deluded and see fit to condemn everything they don't like, including the very scriptures of a God they supposedly serve.

Yep, as is slavery made moral, and the treatment of women as servants to men.

Don't apoligise. You didnt write the ridiculous book. Some control freak a few thousand years ago did that for you.

This is what I mean? Why would God need you to demonstate his love, when he is a God? Surely he can do it himself?

I'm sorry if I am offending you at all, this is not a personal insult my friend, I just have no time for the concept of religion. It's done some horrible things in my life and I would never let it in. Not in a million years.

How can it be a lie, when everyone else (secular) believe in what they can see, smell, taste, hear, touch, feel? We are just facing reality. But I suppose that argument is never going to be resolved. I just feel such a loving God would never make human beings have to believe in him so they can go to hell, by not being "physical". And why would a God feel the need to create? That would give him a human characteristic.

These corrupt religious leaders are the problem. As there is no way to see a persons intentions, they can say all sorts of mumbo-jumbo to get people thinking they are good. They can followers to say or do anything, and there is nothing to stop them. Look at things like the Waco incident, or the Spanish Inquisition, all done in the name of religion. If you start saying God told me this, or God told me that, there is nothing you can do to disprove it, so you are wandering about aimlessly following peoples whimsical imaginations. I'd rather stay with the facts. I really don't think a God would rely on such ridiculous farcical nonsense. How do you know who to believe or follow?

You can condemn someone into believing. Just look at medieval times and the time when the bible was wrote. Yes non-believers were all sacrificed because they dared to question the foolish rulers, and their "God". :headbang:

I was speaking in modern times, and actually was refering to this.

"Times are hard now, but there is a loving God who cares, and if you'll turn to him, you will see how He can help you through this." This is closer to what we should be doing

As opposed to.

"You're suffering because ye are a vial sinnah, and if you don't repent NOW then you are DOOOOMED to forevah suffah the flames of HELL!" This is closer to what we actually do, sadly.

Yep, as is slavery made moral, and the treatment of women as servants to men.

Don't apoligise. You didnt write the ridiculous book. Some control freak a few thousand years ago did that for you.

This is what I mean? Why would God need you to demonstate his love, when he is a God? Surely he can do it himself?

I'm sorry if I am offending you at all, this is not a personal insult my friend, I just have no time for the concept of religion. It's done some horrible things in my life and I would never let it in. Not in a million years.

I'm truly sorry then. i know people who have gone through similar things. Been condemned and mistreated by my own "brothers." Even the KKK claims to have their basis in scripture. Distorting for the sake of racism. That is one of the two greatest perversions of God's will that I have ever witnessed. The other is me, but I have a special spot in my heart for racism.

I was speaking in modern times, and actually was refering to this.

"Times are hard now, but there is a loving God who cares, and if you'll turn to him, you will see how He can help you through this." This is closer to what we should be doing

As opposed to.

"You're suffering because ye are a vial sinnah, and if you don't repent NOW then you are DOOOOMED to forevah suffah the flames of HELL!" This is closer to what we actually do, sadly.

Yeah, and I agree. I do think the concept of someone else being there for you in a difficult time is a good one. Although people can make this up for themselves, they dont need organised religion. As soon as that happens, the rot sets in.

sadly the latter quote, is, and will be used on people with the fear method. And that is the only way religion is going to survive. I really see organised religion having its swan song and dying in the west very soon. i really hope so anyway. :p

I'm truly sorry then. i know people who have gone through similar things. Been condemned and mistreated by my own "brothers." Even the KKK claims to have their basis in scripture. Distorting for the sake of racism. That is one of the two greatest perversions of God's will that I have ever witnessed. The other is me, but I have a special spot in my heart for racism.

I know and this is my point! Why would God allow his holy self to get so perverted? And cause others to get that way?

He is not a God, because his power is very laughable. I've seen more will and love in a grapefruit.

Yeah, and I agree. I do think the concept of someone else being there for you in a difficult time is a good one. Although people can make this up for themselves, they dont need organised religion. As soon as that happens, the rot sets in.

sadly the latter quote, is, and will be used on people with the fear method. And that is the only way religion is going to survive. I really see organised religion having its swan song and dying in the west very soon. i really hope so anyway. :p

I doubt it, but I really think a massive reformation is in order. We need to get away from denominationalism and simply follow Christ for ourselves, as he wants each of us to individually, but that isn't going to happen either because of cults like the Church of Christ. They're creepy. They are hellfire and brimstone preachers, think that only they are right, and sing doomsday songs in major keys. Creepy stuff

I know and this is my point! Why would God allow his holy self to get so perverted? And cause others to get that way?

He is not a God, because his power is very laughable. I've seen more will and love in a grapefruit.

It's distorted by men. His greatest gift and greatest mistake to give us was free will. All it takes is one guy with a knack for manipulation and an organization like that springs up.

I don't particular care if the any god[s] or the beliefs of any religion are true or not.

I'll tell you if I ever meet any gods/witness miracles etc.

Even if there is a god I wouldn't worship them; what would be the point? They probably wouldn't deserve it, especially if it's just because they're a god/creator.

Plus the "evil exists so god doesn't" argument doesn't really cut it 'cause god could just be a total bastard.

I don't particular care if the any god[s] or the beliefs of any religion are true or not. Even if there is a god I wouldn't worship them; what would be the point?

The point varies from person to person. I know what he designed me for, and I know what he designed my covenant friend Brock for. I don't know what he had in mind for you, but I know that you'd enjoy it, and that he'd like you to find out.

The point varies from person to person. I know what he designed me for, and I know what he designed my covenant friend Brock for. I don't know what he had in mind for you, but I know that you'd enjoy it, and that he'd like you to find out.

I don't want to find out.

I don't want to find out.

suit yourself, like I said you'd enjoy it.

I don't think I would. Why would I enjoy something I don't believe or agree with?

I am going to throw in my 2 cents worth. I am not the most educated person, but through talking with people and some reading, it seems to me that most religions were created to require people to follow common sense rules they would not otherwise have followed.

As I said I am not the brightest bulb but some of the rules I can think of are along the lines of:

do not eat of the cloven hoofed animal (pork made people very sick)

Do not murder

Do not steal

there are others as well.

Many people are A-moral at heart and without a GOD telling them no they would do what they want, creating chaos in society.

I am going to throw in my 2 cents worth. I am not the most educated person, but through talking with people and some reading, it seems to me that most religions were created to require people to follow common sense rules they would not otherwise have followed.

As I said I am not the brightest bulb but some of the rules I can think of are along the lines of:

do not eat of the cloven hoofed animal (pork made people very sick)

Do not murder

Do not steal

there are others as well.

Many people are A-moral at heart and without a GOD telling them no they would do what they want, creating chaos in society.


I agree with the "common sense rules" part but I'm not sure if enough people are/were amoral to warrant the invention of god to make them moral. Seems kind of patronising to assume people are too stupid to be moral without a god to tell them... But then no-one ever said religious leaders couldn't be patronising so maybe... whatever...

I really don’t care if people want to believe in the supernatural as long as it doesn’t negatively affect the general welfare of the people. But when discriminatory and needlessly repressive laws are written, wars are waged , and judgements are passed based on what some mythological being supposedly wrote or whispered in someone’s ear then I’ve a real problem with that. If I’m accused of a crime of which I’m innocent, I don’t want some judge or jury relying on “prayer” to determine my fate. If I have to go into battle I don’t want my commanders depending on a god’s help for victory.

I don't think I would. Why would I enjoy something I don't believe or agree with?

I can tell you you'd enjoy it all I want, but unless you eventually become willing, it isn't going to do a whole lot of good. He discusses this in His word, it's why he gave us free will. He wants us to come to Him, then He reveals His will. That's why the people who believe believe so strong, and why the people that are insistent that there is no God haven't seen the proof the rest of us have.

I really don’t care if people want to believe in the supernatural as long as it doesn’t negatively affect the general welfare of the people. But when discriminatory and needlessly repressive laws are written, wars are waged , and judgements are passed based on what some mythological being supposedly wrote or whispered in someone’s ear then I’ve a real problem with that. If I’m accused of a crime of which I’m innocent, I don’t want some judge or jury relying on “prayer” to determine my fate. If I have to go into battle I don’t want my commanders depending on a god’s help for victory.

If the commanders always relied on God's will for victory, one side would always be very upset, and probably receiving something along the lines of "I told you not to get involved." As for the fate in court, I would rather have God decide my fate than men.

I agree with the "common sense rules" part but I'm not sure if enough people are/were amoral to warrant the invention of god to make them moral. Seems kind of patronising to assume people are too stupid to be moral without a god to tell them... But then no-one ever said religious leaders couldn't be patronising so maybe... whatever...

Religion is the problem. Religion is defined as a tool that higherups use to control the masses. That's why denominationalism is wrong, and why I follow Christ, not his people. I rely on his people for things like prayer support, and emotional help in times of need. These people are my brothers and sisters in Christ afterall. But I don't do what priests and pastors tell me to do if I feel that God isn't leading me in that direction.

i think it basically comes down to either

a) knowing that there are questions but being content to never know the answers and living on 'faith (religion as fact)
b) Being assured that there are answers to all questions and denying the need for faith (atheism as a viable way of life)

its down to individuals to choose their path and who are any of us to stand in the other man's way to happiness, be it found in chasing answers or living in faith?

i think it basically comes down to either

a) knowing that there are questions but being content to never know the answers and living on 'faith (religion as fact)
b) Being assured that there are answers to all questions and denying the need for faith (atheism as a viable way of life)

its down to individuals to choose their path and who are any of us to stand in the other man's way to happiness, be it found in chasing answers or living in faith?

We go on missions trips not to prove others wrong, but to share how great God's love really is. Aside from that one comment *applauds*

As for the fate in court, I would rather have God decide my fate than men.
Then we have an irreconcilable difference here. I guess if I was guilty I'd like that since nothing would happen.

Then we have an irreconcilable difference here. I guess if I was guilty I'd like that since nothing would happen.

that depends on how in tune with the divine the judge was. I he was a good enough conduit for God's will and his will was your punishment, you'd be screwd, but I'm really more interested in discussion than gainsay.

I can tell you you'd enjoy it all I want, but unless you eventually become willing, it isn't going to do a whole lot of good. He discusses this in His word, it's why he gave us free will. He wants us to come to Him, then He reveals His will. That's why the people who believe believe so strong, and why the people that are insistent that there is no God haven't seen the proof the rest of us have.

i don't believe in "Him" but that's irrelevant. If He wants me to "come to Him", why should I? You say I'd enjoy but don't say why.

dude I WAS contributing to the discussion, and you just chose to dismiss it as a flame (which it was NOT) and ignore everything else I brought up.

I He wants us to come to Him, then He reveals His will. That's why the people who believe believe so strong, and why the people that are insistent that there is no God haven't seen the proof the rest of us have.

well isn't that a handy excuse. "I have proof god exists but I'm not gonna show you 'cuz I don't wanna, and you're not one of us" come on, that's just some playground argument. I asked you about what you were saying about demons, I was genunely interested as to what you saying, but you ignored that. I'm not surprised.

you seem to assume that as an athiest I must be deeply immoral. shame. I've seen and heard too much done in the name of religion to believe.

Religion is the problem. Religion is defined as a tool that higherups use to control the masses. That's why denominationalism is wrong, and why I follow Christ, not his people. I rely on his people for things like prayer support, and emotional help in times of need. These people are my brothers and sisters in Christ afterall. But I don't do what priests and pastors tell me to do if I feel that God isn't leading me in that direction.

What if God's direction is wrong?

Following Christ rather than your own conscience is denominationalism.

dude I WAS contributing to the discussion, and you just chose to dismiss it as a flame (which it was NOT) and ignore everything else I brought up.



well isn't that a handy excuse. "I have proof god exists but I'm not gonna show you 'cuz I don't wanna, and you're not one of us" come on, that's just some playground argument. I asked you about what you were saying about demons, I was genunely interested as to what you saying, but you ignored that. I'm not surprised.

you seem to assume that as an athiest I must be deeply immoral. shame. I've seen and heard too much done in the name of religion to believe.

Point taken. I used to worship a demon. All I can give you is a personal account and a couple of witnesses, but I used to be able to essentially give myself an adrenaline rush at will, I was never as obedient as he would have liked so more rewards never came, just drip feeding me a feeling of superiority over everyone around me, and a certain knack for manipulation. I gave that up for something better. Very few athiests are immoral I just misinterpretted your meaning. If they were straight edge wouldn't exist.

What if God's direction is wrong?

Following Christ rather than your own conscience is denominationalism.

No, following baptist or catholic, or episcopalian etc. etc. dogma is denominationalism. Following Christ without that is Christianity. I still go to them as houses of worship, but don't have a singular church family. They're all my brothers and sisters in Christ.

dude I WAS contributing to the discussion, and you just chose to dismiss it as a flame (which it was NOT) and ignore everything else I brought up.



well isn't that a handy excuse. "I have proof god exists but I'm not gonna show you 'cuz I don't wanna, and you're not one of us" come on, that's just some playground argument. I asked you about what you were saying about demons, I was genunely interested as to what you saying, but you ignored that. I'm not surprised.

you seem to assume that as an athiest I must be deeply immoral. shame. I've seen and heard too much done in the name of religion to believe.
Something I forgot to address. I found personal proof that God exists, not universal proof. If I told you that the day I was saved it felt like something drastic inside me reversed itself would that be proof enough for you? I doubt it, but if you experienced it for yourself...

What if th christian god is wrong? Why limit yourself to the ideas of Christ or any single other? That devides people.

...Is what I meant.

i don't believe in "Him" but that's irrelevant. If He wants me to "come to Him", why should I? You say I'd enjoy but don't say why.
It's not easy to say why. All I can say is that He's revealed to me some of His plans for me, and I like them. That and the promise of our fulfillment through serving Him is scriptural. You have to make that decision yourself to discover that it rings true.

What if th christian god is wrong? Why limit yourself to the ideas of Christ or any single other? That devides people.

...Is what I meant.
If Christ isn't the son of God then my life is entirely backwards and worthless because I follow a lie. I have faith that that isn't the case though. It ultimately comes down to that one thing, faith.

Exactly. But faith doesn't intrinsically make your life better, whatever you may think about your particular faith. I just think that you should fully consider all points of view expressed in religion/philosophy etc in order to avoid falling into the trap of blindly following something without any actual reason.

Exactly. But faith doesn't intrinsically make your life better, whatever you may think about your particular faith. I just think that you should fully consider all points of view expressed in religion/philosophy etc in order to avoid falling into the trap of blindly following something without any actual reason.
I have a reason, but if I expounded on them you wouldn't be able to understand. The things I feel in my spirit, the gift of discerning, the covenant I made, the differences I felt worshiping a demon, my answered prayers, these are irrelevant to you, but they are what sustain and increase my faith. I don't need other views because I am already resigned to accept certain things as true, and that isn't going to change. My perspective on those truths may change, but what's true won't.

I have a reason, but if I expounded on them you wouldn't be able to understand.
...
I don't need other views because I am already resigned to accept certain things as true, and that isn't going to change. My perspective on those truths may change, but what's true won't.

That is a poor argument. Ever considered that you wouldn't understand why I don't believe and wouldn't convert even if I met God. I assume you haven't since you "don't need other views". To dismiss all other views out of hand illustrates to me one of the many things wrong with the idea of religious "truth" or "the word of God".

It seems to me that you have fallen into blind faith and ignorace of others. If you don't question the "truth" or your faith maybe your life will be "backwards and meaningless", you'll never know if you don't consider other possiblities and evaluate why you accept certain things as true. Are your Christian beliefs really any more legitimate than a Buddhist's, Muslim's or a Jew's or anyone else's faith?

I don't need religion in my life. Maybe you do, but I think you should ask yourself why.

That is a poor argument. Ever considered that you wouldn't understand why I don't believe and wouldn't convert even if I met God. I assume you haven't since you "don't need other views". To dismiss all other views out of hand illustrates to me one of the many things wrong with the idea of religious "truth" or "the word of God".

It seems to me that you have fallen into blind faith and ignorace of others. If you don't question the "truth" or your faith maybe your life will be "backwards and meaningless", you'll never know if you don't consider other possiblities and evaluate why you accept certain things as true. Are your Christian beliefs really any more legitimate than a Buddhist's, Muslim's or a Jew's or anyone else's faith?

I don't need religion in my life. Maybe you do, but I think you should ask yourself why.
I never said I needed it. Some things would be easier without it, but I know the cost. I am not ignorant. That is again a perception. Again I must address something on a personal level, God has revealed many things to me and I've seen many personal verifications of His existence and His will that don't apply to you. If you won't accept Him, that's your choice, and I can't change that. I'm pretty sure I've already explained what it is I try to do. I may not understand why you wouldn't change your mind, but to me you seem open to possibilities, I like to think that since you ask me to be open to other religions being true, you're at least open to the idea that mine could be, again, all I can do is my best to provide a good example, plant seeds, and hope for you.

We also had someone posting whom I believe was wiccan since they made a direct reference to the goddess.

I am not, nor have I ever been, part of a Wiccan. Yes, I follow the Goddess, or at the very least, A Goddess. But, I am no Wiccan.

I saw a comment about documenting my religon, I would, but I don't live in the Nederlands. Otherwise, that could be rather interesting.

As for how I know she exists? Whoever asked that, you do have a point. The organ behind the eyes is an extremely complex one. So can I truly believe what a dream can tell me? Not that I saw her in a dream mind you, I'm just giving an example. The reason I started following Her is because a month ago I was an Aethiest thru and thru. Then, about two or three weeks ago, I realised that I was praying before I fell asleep, something I haven't EVER done in my life (honestly, I have never believed in God.). I was praying to Her. So, ever since, I have pretty much believed in Her. I don't know why or how, but thats the way of it.

And just to raise an interesting point: Might my Goddess, or the Wiccan Goddess(Who I believe is very much lunar related), and the Christian God, be one and the same? Just perceived differently?

I think I will go think on this....

I am not, nor have I ever been, part of a Wiccan. Yes, I follow the Goddess, or at the very least, A Goddess. But, I am no Wiccan.

I saw a comment about documenting my religon, I would, but I don't live in the Nederlands. Otherwise, that could be rather interesting.

As for how I know she exists? Whoever asked that, you do have a point. The organ behind the eyes is an extremely complex one. So can I truly believe what a dream can tell me? Not that I saw her in a dream mind you, I'm just giving an example. The reason I started following Her is because a month ago I was an Aethiest thru and thru. Then, about two or three weeks ago, I realised that I was praying before I fell asleep, something I haven't EVER done in my life (honestly, I have never believed in God.). I was praying to Her. So, ever since, I have pretty much believed in Her. I don't know why or how, but thats the way of it.

And just to raise an interesting point: Might my Goddess, or the Wiccan Goddess(Who I believe is very much lunar related), and the Christian God, be one and the same? Just perceived differently?

I think I will go think on this....
I won't bother thinking on that. That's for Him/Them to worry about not me. There's a part of me that doubts it greatly, but I can't fully dismiss it because I just don't know.

I won't bother thinking on that. That's for Him/Them to worry about not me. There's a part of me that doubts it greatly, but I can't fully dismiss it because I just don't know.


Actually, now this opens a place for Hinduism to come in, as they have the perfect example of the "Multi-Faceted God". If one thinks about it, most all of th e basic religous laws are strikingly similar (sp?), so there's also the possibility that nearly every supposed God or Goddess currently in belief today (and who knows? maybe even as far back as the Greek Pantheon), are all just facets of one God. Whether or not you feel you should think about it, I would like input from some others. This is an interesting point. 'Course, I could be just digging myself deep into a pit with pungee sticks a short fall away... Either way though.

it's obvious that the physical stuff n organizations exist, such as the bible or religion.

n there are many things in wich you can believe in, but as a matter of fact, it's just your choice. If you believe in the flood or in adam and eve, then may it be.

but you have to consider all the other religions, not only the christian one.

In my opinion god exists as an entity, as all the things in the world, as the world. in my opinion religions just came to neglect the "real n pure" faith.

and by the way....why do we actually need to believe in something bigger than mankind? whats the need in that?

Actually, now this opens a place for Hinduism to come in, as they have the perfect example of the "Multi-Faceted God". If one thinks about it, most all of th e basic religous laws are strikingly similar (sp?), so there's also the possibility that nearly every supposed God or Goddess currently in belief today (and who knows? maybe even as far back as the Greek Pantheon), are all just facets of one God. Whether or not you feel you should think about it, I would like input from some others. This is an interesting point. 'Course, I could be just digging myself deep into a pit with pungee sticks a short fall away... Either way though.
Yes, they are very similar, all describe an innitial fall, many account for the flood, it's possible that all are linked to one Divine, but I already have a path and His Majesty hasn't let me down yet, and never will.

Yes, they are very similar, all describe an innitial fall, many account for the flood, it's possible that all are linked to one Divine, but I already have a path and His Majesty hasn't let me down yet, and never will.

Ah, so being Christian grants you Foresight? Just kidding.

Thank you for saying it though (about the similarity thing).

Ah, so being Christian grants you Foresight? Just kidding.

Thank you for saying it though (about the similarity thing).
I'd be lying to deny it, and revelation says some pretty mean things about liars. Also, it's not foresight per se, just faith.

I never said I needed it. Some things would be easier without it, but I know the cost. I am not ignorant. That is again a perception. Again I must address something on a personal level, God has revealed many things to me and I've seen many personal verifications of His existence and His will that don't apply to you. If you won't accept Him, that's your choice, and I can't change that. I'm pretty sure I've already explained what it is I try to do. I may not understand why you wouldn't change your mind, but to me you seem open to possibilities, I like to think that since you ask me to be open to other religions being true, you're at least open to the idea that mine could be, again, all I can do is my best to provide a good example, plant seeds, and hope for you.

I said maybe you needed it.

I am absolutely open to the possiblity [though I believe it to be minute] that your, or indeed any, religion may be true. However, as I think I mentioned in my first post I simply don't believe on a personal level that any religion being true would justify me joining it.

Please don't patronise me with your hope, I do not patronise you with mine.

I'd be lying to deny it, and revelation says some pretty mean things about liars. Also, it's not foresight per se, just faith.

-Shrugs- Well, it's good to know that I have managed to have an intelligent debate with you, and not piss you off (something that happens all too often these days, too many hotheads in the world... just take the Japanese (?) congress/parliament/thing meetings. More fist fights than WWE.)


At anyrate, I'm going to take my leave of this discussion (and the NS forums) till at least the end of the year. Merry Christmas, Hannukah (sp?) Qwanza (sp?), or whatever else you believe in, and may you have a most totally excellent New Years.

-Shrugs- Well, it's good to know that I have managed to have an intelligent debate with you, and not piss you off (something that happens all too often these days, too many hotheads in the world... just take the Japanese (?) congress/parliament/thing meetings. More fist fights than WWE.)
lol, I hate gainsay, but love a good discussion/debate. I also hate flamers. Message board ones of course.

God exists. If he did not we would not exist. He created us in Heaven before we came to earth thus one is related to the other. No Earth to live if no God to make us.

Who says? Big Bang theory works - although we don't know whether or not there was one, we know it makes sense, it works scientificly with what there is now.

Big supernatural beings are the complete opposite.

You say that if he did not exist we wouldn't, because he makes us in heaven. What if we're not made and we actually come about through the manner science has backed up?

No Earth to live in if no god to make us? Who said that a god makes us, or the Earth which we live on?

Who says? Big Bang theory works - although we don't know whether or not there was one, we know it makes sense, it works scientificly with what there is now.

Big supernatural beings are the complete opposite.

You say that if he did not exist we wouldn't, because he makes us in heaven. What if we're not made and we actually come about through the manner science has backed up?

No Earth to live in if no god to make us? Who said that a god makes us, or the Earth which we live on?
Describe the big bang theory to me again, I seem to a bit fuzzy on it's exact description.

A while back on this thread, people continually questioned my insistence that existence needed meaning.

A while back I read a book called Grendel by John Gardner. The book chronicles the tale of Beowulf (Ye Olde English epic) from Grendel's perspective, and Grendel journeys through full spectrum of existentialist philosophy. He begins as a solopsist ("Only I exist, therefore, I provide meaning to existence), later he becomes a nihilist (existence is meaningless), until in the end he becomes an empiricist (What I see exists - the meaning of life is to create further life). The book is very deep, very well recommended, but it sent me into what I can only describe as a mental tailspin. For the first time ever, I really considered the idea "What if there is no God?"

That, I realized, was a frightening idea. Without God (or some sort of divinity) there is clearly no afterlife - only permanent, unconscious, extinction. In this case, what was the point of living at all? To create more life? Regardless of how much of my genetic makeup I project blindly into the future, my fate after death is the same as everyone else's. Why prolong my life another second, since I'll be dead eventually anyway, and at that point I won't be conscious enough to recognize that I'm even dead? These were the questions that convinced me all existentialism (all atheism, really) was a practice in self-deceipt or nihilism.

Being a fairly clear-minded individual, however, I decided not to attempt suicide in the hopes that I would manage to prove myself wrong. I could not; however, an internet search (on what I cannot remember) turned up the site www.carm.org. I had never before encountered apologetics, and this gave me hope. Here was someone working to prove the Faith in Christ was viable, not outdated or contradictory, but possible. It was not enough still, but enough to take me out of the nosedive I was in and bring me to a sort of spiritual neutrality.

One day, I was showering, and thinking. I thought about God, about the meanings of existence and life and such deep philosophy as I'm sure all of you do when engaging in hygiene maintenance. I remembered what I had been like before this episode - confident in my faith, happily following God as what I felt was a good Lutheran, a proud Lutheran who was plenty happy with being the only person of almost all his friends to attend church regularly. When I became an atheist (and, briefly, a nihilist), all of that evaporated. My confidence was gone, I stayed up late at night, sick with the thought of my own inevitable, permanent death. Strangely, while church prior to the episode had been mostly ritual, during this time it became an hour-long haven each week. It was a simple hour that was utterly free of despairing thought.

Now, this is the part I don't think that many people will understand. I felt the Holy Spirit - the Divine Presence of God. It is a sudden, warming, loving feeling, that says "You are not alone" on a deep, touching level. I rose, in perhaps an instant, out of spiritual grayness back into light. Like Ghannas, I can't offer you any universal proof that God exists. You have to find God more through experience than evidence.

Now, in the service of my God, I write a little column in cyberspace about my thoughts about Him. When I said that without God there was no meaning to existence, and I prefer that belief, I didn't mean that God's purpose is to provide meaning to existence... it just... happens. Because God exists, there is meaning. Without the Divine, there is Nothing.

I hope that clarified things, or at least bored you enough that you will never again want to debate a theological point with me.

Well, just for my 2 cents....

Since I am Wiccan, my views lie in there is a God and a Goddess, but life has existed way before 'Adam and Eve'. Half the Bible has been proven incorrect and the rest is hypocrisy. As far as I know(from what I've been told), the Torah(sorry if spelled wrong) is mostly hymns, prayers, and factual stories, backed by history.

Wicca and other pagan religions have been around for a few thousand years. Whereas Christianity <2000.

I don't know where I'm going with this exactly, but I suppose the point I'm trying to make is, I do believe in a divine higher being. I do believe in the threefold law(that which you do comes back to you with 3 times the intensity, good or bad). I do believe in karma. I don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, but I do know that he did Raeke(sorry if spelled wrong, again) or Laying On Hands. I don't see the pope as a religious icon, but more of a political icon. Buddah was not on the Atkins diet. The Dalai Llama is a pretty cool guy. Ghandi was the shizzy. I'm against war and abortion, and don't like these anti-gay laws.

View me as you wish. Wether you believe in religion or not is your choice, I suppose. My choice is to believe what I do, and I'm open to learning new things. Learning is what makes us who we are. I do apologize if I offended anyone.

A while back on this thread, people continually questioned my insistence that existence needed meaning.

A while back I read a book called Grendel by John Gardner. The book chronicles the tale of Beowulf (Ye Olde English epic) from Grendel's perspective, and Grendel journeys through full spectrum of existentialist philosophy. He begins as a solopsist ("Only I exist, therefore, I provide meaning to existence), later he becomes a nihilist (existence is meaningless), until in the end he becomes an empiricist (What I see exists - the meaning of life is to create further life). The book is very deep, very well recommended, but it sent me into what I can only describe as a mental tailspin. For the first time ever, I really considered the idea "What if there is no God?"

That, I realized, was a frightening idea. Without God (or some sort of divinity) there is clearly no afterlife - only permanent, unconscious, extinction. In this case, what was the point of living at all? To create more life? Regardless of how much of my genetic makeup I project blindly into the future, my fate after death is the same as everyone else's. Why prolong my life another second, since I'll be dead eventually anyway, and at that point I won't be conscious enough to recognize that I'm even dead? These were the questions that convinced me all existentialism (all atheism, really) was a practice in self-deceipt or nihilism.

Being a fairly clear-minded individual, however, I decided not to attempt suicide in the hopes that I would manage to prove myself wrong. I could not; however, an internet search (on what I cannot remember) turned up the site www.carm.org. I had never before encountered apologetics, and this gave me hope. Here was someone working to prove the Faith in Christ was viable, not outdated or contradictory, but possible. It was not enough still, but enough to take me out of the nosedive I was in and bring me to a sort of spiritual neutrality.

One day, I was showering, and thinking. I thought about God, about the meanings of existence and life and such deep philosophy as I'm sure all of you do when engaging in hygiene maintenance. I remembered what I had been like before this episode - confident in my faith, happily following God as what I felt was a good Lutheran, a proud Lutheran who was plenty happy with being the only person of almost all his friends to attend church regularly. When I became an atheist (and, briefly, a nihilist), all of that evaporated. My confidence was gone, I stayed up late at night, sick with the thought of my own inevitable, permanent death. Strangely, while church prior to the episode had been mostly ritual, during this time it became an hour-long haven each week. It was a simple hour that was utterly free of despairing thought.

Now, this is the part I don't think that many people will understand. I felt the Holy Spirit - the Divine Presence of God. It is a sudden, warming, loving feeling, that says "You are not alone" on a deep, touching level. I rose, in perhaps an instant, out of spiritual grayness back into light. Like Ghannas, I can't offer you any universal proof that God exists. You have to find God more through experience than evidence.

Now, in the service of my God, I write a little column in cyberspace about my thoughts about Him. When I said that without God there was no meaning to existence, and I prefer that belief, I didn't mean that God's purpose is to provide meaning to existence... it just... happens. Because God exists, there is meaning. Without the Divine, there is Nothing.

I hope that clarified things, or at least bored you enough that you will never again want to debate a theological point with me.


Nice story but still boils down to "because it makes me feel better" and I just can not accept something just because it makes it easier for me much rather be in the persuit of truth then to give up because it is too hard or I feel the one I ran across "may" be it

Actually, now this opens a place for Hinduism to come in, as they have the perfect example of the "Multi-Faceted God". If one thinks about it, most all of th e basic religous laws are strikingly similar (sp?), so there's also the possibility that nearly every supposed God or Goddess currently in belief today (and who knows? maybe even as far back as the Greek Pantheon), are all just facets of one God. Whether or not you feel you should think about it, I would like input from some others. This is an interesting point. 'Course, I could be just digging myself deep into a pit with pungee sticks a short fall away... Either way though.

Isn't there only one God. I am really baffled by how often I hear ppl say or write that is more than one God. Which God created us then??? How could there possibly be more than one God. All revealed religions have come from God to humanity through Messengers of God. Take a look at the time line for the major religions they are seperated by one to two thousand years and bring nearly identical spiritual laws and new social laws such as dietary etc. to meet the changing social conditions of human need. Case in point Christ did not outlaw slavery, Baha'u'llah the Prophet founder of the Baha'i Faith did. There are many other examples of need to change social laws too numerous to mention.

Describe the big bang theory to me again, I seem to a bit fuzzy on it's exact description.Nobody else has yet answered this, so I'm going to stick my great big fat oar in and make a fool out of myself...

In essence, the Big Bang theory is that there was a... let's call it 'time', though that's not a good description... there was a 'time' when the Universe as we knew did not exist. There was nothing, not even empty space. Then (and I suppose I should quote 'then' much the same as 'time') and then, in the middle (ignoring for a moment that spacial descriptions were as meaningless as time-based ones) of the nothing the entirity of space/time as we know it emerged, unfolding and expanding and allowing the broiling, initially densely packed matter and energy to spread into it. There were particles and anti-particles, and it appears that a lot of these met and mutually destroyed themselves to provide most of the energy in the Universe that we now know of...

This is but one interpretation, and ignores some of the finer points (like the apparent matter/anti-matter disparity, how you can have space-less and time-less conditions and such-like) that are explainable but that I'm not qualified enough to start spouting off about, but nicely fits the observed facts without too much flapping about...

As to what caused the Big Bang, well you may assign responsibility to a Creator, the Judeo-Christian God perhaps, or you can theorise about M-Theory, where 'bubbles' of stuff are expanding/floating through 11-dimensions of space and where they meet the 10-dimensional impact-zone (a bit like a 3D soap bubble has a 2D surface and creates a flat interface if it touches another bubble) within which 'the stuff that we see and experience' occurs. To be honest, there's a lot of 'faith' needed for both those approaches, the differences being in how you interpret the words of the people who support the respective views and I'm sure others will debate the main differences.

Anyway, something that looked like the Big Bang seems to have occured, and from this various other stages seem to have come to pass (according to all available evidence), including the separation of the forces, the Universe turning 'transparent', stellar structures forming with heavy-element formation, accumulation of solar-discs, planetoid and planet formation, geology occuring, environmental conditions allowing the formation of self-replicating molecules under evolutionary pressures, the exploitation and maintenance of other molecules and reactions, the creation of self-contained cell-structures, the cooperation of specialised cell colonies, development of multi-cellular organisms, amphibiousness, land-dwellability, intelligence/versatility, language and extelligence, social responsibility, rule of law/religion, culture, division of labour, sufficient food production by proxy allowing more esoteric activities, alchemy/curiosity, science, computers, Nation States. It was almost inevitable... :)

I'm an agnostic, as well as an empiricist. People who refuse to change their point of view based on learning new facts are disadvantaged by evolution.

(Note that 'he' is used solely for convenience in the following. If there really is a god and God had a gender like any human, the world might even be better off with a Goddess?) However, I don't think there is a God in the "intervening, all-powerful" sense. There's this argument... (excuse archaic English ahead) "Is God Willing to prevent Evil, but not Able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he Able, but not Willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both willing and able? Then whence cometh Evil? Is he neither willing nor malevolent? Then why do we call him God?"

If he was omnipotent and willing to intervene and benevolent, we wouldn't see a lot of the things that are currently going on. People like Jerry "Kill them all in the name of the Lord" Falwell would get a singed backside, George "Moral Values" Bush wouldn't be able to rely on his Mandate to kill 'heathens'... If he was malevolent, it would all be a lot worse.

So I conclude that, assuming he exists, he either is unable to intervene, or doesn't want to disturb his handiwork. Either of these mean that we pretty much have to take matters into our own hands and hope he doesn't disagree with it strongly enough to suddenly change his policy.

The story of man begins:


:) :eek: :confused: :mad: :sniper: :headbang: :eek: :) :fluffle:

I'm an agnostic, as well as an empiricist. People who refuse to change their point of view based on learning new facts are disadvantaged by evolution.

(Note that 'he' is used solely for convenience in the following. If there really is a god and God had a gender like any human, the world might even be better off with a Goddess?) However, I don't think there is a God in the "intervening, all-powerful" sense. There's this argument... (excuse archaic English ahead) "Is God Willing to prevent Evil, but not Able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he Able, but not Willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both willing and able? Then whence cometh Evil? Is he neither willing nor malevolent? Then why do we call him God?"

If he was omnipotent and willing to intervene and benevolent, we wouldn't see a lot of the things that are currently going on. People like Jerry "Kill them all in the name of the Lord" Falwell would get a singed backside, George "Moral Values" Bush wouldn't be able to rely on his Mandate to kill 'heathens'... If he was malevolent, it would all be a lot worse.

So I conclude that, assuming he exists, he either is unable to intervene, or doesn't want to disturb his handiwork. Either of these mean that we pretty much have to take matters into our own hands and hope he doesn't disagree with it strongly enough to suddenly change his policy.
His greatest gift to us, and one that He will never take away is free will. What we say is of our own will, He won't intervene in that manner.

OK GUYS! LISTEN UP!

I AM, IN FACT, AN ATHEIST! I KNOW LIFE HAS NO MEANING OR PURPOSE (EXCEPT ANCTUALLY LIVING) TO IT AND BELIEVE THAT THE GENERAL RELIGION IS A SHAM AND A LIE MEANT TO KEEP US IN LINE BENEATH FALSE HOLY MEN

Yet, I agree with the basic principles that is teaches, but I completely disagree with giving people false hope for their 'afterlives' and promising them salvation if they find no 'earthly pleasures'.

Hey Chizz didn't you start this thread about religion? So what's the big deal. You have every right to believe or not believe. I am not a Christian, in but I do believe in what Christ said. I don't agree with the many, sometimes (to me) strange, ideas that have cropped up in Christendom. I do wonder what it is that Christ said that you don't agree with. The things that Christ said make perfect sense to me. It is all of the other dogma and ritual that I always had trouble with even as a child. So what is it with the words of Christ that bother you so much? I really am just curious and in no way wish to condemn or judge.

His greatest gift to us, and one that He will never take away is free will. What we say is of our own will, He won't intervene in that manner.I always have problems with this "He gave us Free Will" thing. Having the Three 'O's (Omniscience, Omnipotentence and Omnipresance), He would know exactly what we were were going to do with it even before we did (perhaps even before He gave us it in the first place).

That's not to say I haven't heard some fine arguments to the contrary, but we start seeing ineffability at that point. Some might use the term "wilful neglect" to describe the state of His mind, were it transposed into a person caring for pets, but naturally that sort of assumption doesn't really do justice to the situation...