NationStates Jolt Archive

Sunday, December 19, 2004. New York Times. Section 4, page 1.

Does Christmas Need to be Saved?

A pastor in Raleigh N.C. took out a full page newspaper ad in November exhorting Christians to shop only at stores that included 'Merry Christmas' in their promotions.
. . .
In Mustang, Okla., Parents last week voted against an $11m bond for schools after the superintendent excised a nativity scene at the end of the annual Christmas play.
. . .
And in Kansas, the Wichita Eagle published a correction this month noting that the tree lighted at Winterfest was a 'Community Tree', not a 'Christmas Tree.
. . .
This year however, Conservatives, who have long pushed to "put the Christ back in Christmas" say they have been emboldened by election results that they took as an affirmation that most Americans share not only their faith but their beleif that the nation has lost its bearings.

Okay, I can understand some Christians wanting faith in their nice little consumerist holiday but really, these people take it too far. Raleigh - only shop in stores that say 'Merry Christmas' I mean really. Way to try and limit others. "You can only shop here and here, but nowhere else."
"But that store doesn't have what I want."
"Too bad. Its un-christian to shop in the other stores."

Mustang Okla - way to vote against your child's future. They rejected 11m for schools because they didn't like the superintendant. Well, when their kids are on the street as beggars with no money, they can only blame themselves for not educating their kids.

Kansas - Deal with the fact that people practice other religions than Christianity.

Its this kind of thing that makes me a little sick. Christians claiming their rights are infringed and there is a war against Christianity, yet they are the ones waging the war. Why the need to make others feel uncomfortable? Why the need to make sure no one else can have a holiday around Christmas? Why the need to assure yourself that your child, even though he or she is in a public school, can only learn the Christian holidays?

What the hell is so wrong about making things secular (at public schools, like they are supposed to be) or actually including the other Holidays at this time of year? Why can't the Christians just cope with it and move on?

War against Christianity my ass.

Americans really need to stop taking religion to 'unhealthy' levels....

Americans really need to stop taking religion to 'unhealthy' levels....
Lol like we are the first ... or the only people that do that :p

Lol like we are the first ... or the only people that do that :p

Well the example set by those that did it first should be more than enough to show us what is wrong with doing that.

Well the example set by those that did it first should be more than enough to show us what is wrong with doing that.

Except remember: We're Americans. We don't care what the rest of the world did because we're always right.

There seems to be a lot of new extremist christians on the board as well...

Well the example set by those that did it first should be more than enough to show us what is wrong with doing that.
I just think the more accurate statement is "people" not americans but whatever :p

There seems to be a lot of new extremist christians on the board as well...

Yeah, where have all these fundamentalist catholics come from. I have never seen so much anti-semetism in all my life.

Yeah, where have all these fundamentalist catholics come from.

There are more than one or two of them?

There are more than one or two of them?

I thought there were at least three, with a couple of plain christians backing them up.

There are more than one or two of them?

Good point, I've seen Defensor Fedei and Fascist Emerica;

I'm going to bet you dollars to donuts there's more of them though...

I thought there were at least three, with a couple of plain christians backing them up.

Really? I've never seen more than one at a time on this forum. Could you link me to the thread? I've got to see that. :D

Really? I've never seen more than one at a time on this forum. Could you link me to the thread? I've got to see that. :D


There is also SSDivisionViking. I don't remember what thread they dominated maybe someone else does.

Really? I've never seen more than one at a time on this forum. Could you link me to the thread? I've got to see that. :D


Go look at the forum called "If you're catholic and support Kerry"

I feel like I want to punch him.

Good point, I've seen Defensor Fedei and Fascist Emerica;

I'm going to bet you dollars to donuts there's more of them though...

Don't forget Austrealite. *grumbles*

The first two are pretty stupid I think, namely the one where they wouldn't give schools money because the super intendant didn't want to unintentionally offend someone but oddly enough I also believe that they do have to admit that it IS in fact a Christmas tree and the religion it comes from IS Christianity...moderation is in order really.

Honestly I think the whole thing could be settled if they just celebrated every holiday, regardless of religion, equally but that isn't going to happen so moderation seems to be the only thing neccassary.

SOME Christians take the whole "oh my God everyone doesn't believe what we do" thing too far but so do some people with the "oh my god people DO believe in that" as well. It is not all or even close to a majority. It is simply the views of people who are at the opposite sides of the spectrum really that causes all the commotion. Most people just don't really care either way and want to live and believe what they will.

Just my 2 cents...

There is also SSDivisionViking. I don't remember what thread they dominated maybe someone else does.

I'm pretty sure SSDivisionViking is just a parody poster, not an actual fascist "Christian". Defensor Fidei I'm not sure about yet. Fascist Emerica is not someone I'm familiar with, so I'll reserve judgement on that one.

Go look at the forum called "If you're catholic and support Kerry"

I feel like I want to punch him.

Thanks. I'll take a look.

I don't think we should be pointing them out.

Seriously, though, separation of Church and State, anyone? I am so glad I live Canada, sometimes.

I don't think we should be pointing them out.

Seriously, though, separation of Church and State, anyone? I am so glad I live Canada, sometimes.

You're right, we should be nicer to them. We're all part of the same gene-universe. Same pool is still debatable.

But the fact that the opportunity such as this exists is far too tempting...

What the hell is so wrong about making things secular (at public schools, like they are supposed to be) or actually including the other Holidays at this time of year? Why can't the Christians just cope with it and move on?

War against Christianity my ass.

There are plenty of things wrong with secularizing non-governmental things. I agree that schools should be, even though I am a Christian. That Superindendant (sp?) was being dumb IMHO by taking the root theme out of Christmas, but the parents went way too far. Bring the situation to the school board or something, but don't hurt your children.

A "Community" Tree is absolute politically correct garbage. Why can't other people realize that there are Christians who beleive differently from them?

I wouldn't say there is a war, just a constant movement of secularism. It is consuming every aspect of America (not sure about other countries) and is trying to banish religion under the excuse of "seperation of church and state." Which isn't even in the Constitution. Sheesh, why don't you guys accept that WE created this holiday, so WE should get some say in how it goes. 'K?

I wouldn't say there is a war, just a constant movement of secularism. It is consuming every aspect of America (not sure about other countries) and is trying to banish religion under the excuse of "seperation of church and state." Which isn't even in the Constitution. Sheesh, why don't you guys accept that WE created this holiday, so WE should get some say in how it goes. 'K?

Congress shall make no laws regarding the establishment of religion. Amendment One. Seperation of Church and State is right there.


On the other point - the Christians jacked the Chistmas date from the Pagans. They didn't invent it, they don't even know the date when Jesus was born. The Pagans had a celebration and Christians took it over. Maybe the Pagans should say how it goes.

I wouldn't say there is a war, just a constant movement of secularism. It is consuming every aspect of America (not sure about other countries) and is trying to banish religion under the excuse of "seperation of church and state." Which isn't even in the Constitution. Sheesh, why don't you guys accept that WE created this holiday, so WE should get some say in how it goes. 'K?

Most aren't trying to banish religion, they just want you to keep it in your home and church.

I wouldn't say there is a war, just a constant movement of secularism. It is consuming every aspect of America (not sure about other countries) and is trying to banish religion under the excuse of "seperation of church and state." Which isn't even in the Constitution. Sheesh, why don't you guys accept that WE created this holiday, so WE should get some say in how it goes. 'K?

Ah, you too worship the glory that is Mithras!

Where I live, we don't have any problems with people that have other religions or have no religion at all. There really aren't any Jewish people around because we don't exactly have a place for them to worship, we don't have very many Buddhists around because there aren't very many Asian people, and not very many people who don't believe in God are around. Ever since I've been in school there has been some kind of Christmas program, and there have been no complaints that I know about. We have "winter" parties and "winter" breaks at our school but everyone just says "Christmas".

We also don't have a lot of people that say "Keep everything Christian!" or that are prejudice against other races and religions (and if they are they are smart enough to keep their mouths shut). So I really don't know what it is like to meet someone that forces religion on you.

[...]It IS in fact a Christmas tree and the religion it comes from IS Christianity

Actually, it is not. The tree with everything on it is from pre-christian descent, from the Yule festival. The early christian clergy incorporated it into the christian calendar when they found out they couldn't stop people from celebrating it.
In the eastern & russian orthodoxies, christ's birth is celebrated on January 6th.

BTW, the same sort of thing goes for Easter.

Sunday, December 19, 2004. New York Times. Section 4, page 1.

I think it would be nice if you would put in a link to this article so we could read the entire article and not just selected quotes. :headbang:

I think it would be nice if you would put in a link to this article so we could read the entire article and not just selected quotes. :headbang:

You'll have to look for it on the site. I got it from the print version.

In the eastern & russian orthodoxies, christ's birth is celebrated on January 6th.

Wrong! They celebrate Jan. 6th as "Three Kings Day not Christ's birthday. That is the day the Three Kings brought their presents to the Christ Child. The Spanish also exchange gifts on Jan 6th. and Dec 25th is a religious Holy Day not a national holiday.

Where I live, we don't have any problems with people that have other religions or have no religion at all. There really aren't any Jewish people around because we don't exactly have a place for them to worship, we don't have very many Buddhists around because there aren't very many Asian people, and not very many people who don't believe in God are around. Ever since I've been in school there has been some kind of Christmas program, and there have been no complaints that I know about. We have "winter" parties and "winter" breaks at our school but everyone just says "Christmas".

We also don't have a lot of people that say "Keep everything Christian!" or that are prejudice against other races and religions (and if they are they are smart enough to keep their mouths shut). So I really don't know what it is like to meet someone that forces religion on you.

What country do you live in? Sounds like my kind of place.

Congress shall make no laws regarding the establishment of religion. Amendment One. Seperation of Church and State is right there.


On the other point - the Christians jacked the Chistmas date from the Pagans. They didn't invent it, they don't even know the date when Jesus was born. The Pagans had a celebration and Christians took it over. Maybe the Pagans should say how it goes.


Thank YOU!!! The ancient Romans celebrated a festival called Saturnalia, which lasted from December 17 to December 25; with the Christian invasion of Rome, it was 'replaced' with "Christmas" -- an attempt to make a smooth transition from the so-called 'heathen' festivals to "Christian" holidays.