NationStates Jolt Archive

*this is the kind of Big Govt Terror Infrastructure Bush is creating to crush dissent in America nationwide

the Washington Post reports two police officers recently visited the home of an 11-year-old and questioned his parents for three hours about anti-American comments their son made in school The student had refused to participate in a Veterans Day exercise and criticized the Marines. The school claimed he had said, "I wish all Americans were dead and that American soldiers should die." The Police questioned his parents about their views on Sept. 11, the military and if they knew any foreigners who criticized US policy. They also inquired whether the parents might be teaching "anti-American values" at home. The mother, Pamela Allbaugh, told the Washington Post "It was intimidating. I told them it's like a George Orwell novel, that it felt like they were the thought police." She went on to say "If someone would have asked me five years ago if this was something my government would do, I would have said never."
WashingtonPost.com

[1]Where did this happen?
[2]Can you please link this to Bush? Please make a logical argument.

Well, it makes sense.
Kids tend to repeat what they hear at home, and if the kids parents were, say, plotting to blow up their town hall or local military base, their kid would most likely say things like that.
As to the length, police questioning tends to take a long time. Cops like to hold people up.

Saying I wish all Americans were dead isn't an antiwar statement..

The kid was probably pissed off at some other American. And also, the parents don't have to let in the cops if they don't have a search warrant.

I don't mean to nitpick here...but howizit I can't find anything in the washington post about this stuff?

[1]Where did this happen?
[2]Can you please link this to Bush? Please make a logical argument.
it happened in Virginia and Bush is to blame since hes the one that created the political climate for criminalizing dissent

Well, it makes sense.
Kids tend to repeat what they hear at home, and if the kids parents were, say, plotting to blow up their town hall or local military base, their kid would most likely say things like that.
As to the length, police questioning tends to take a long time. Cops like to hold people up.
it makes sense if you want to live in an Orwellian police state

Saying I wish all Americans were dead isn't an antiwar statement..
thats an 11 year olds version of an antiwar statement

it happened in Virginia and Bush is to blame since hes the one that created the political climate for criminalizing dissent
Where in Virginia? And how exactly Bush do that ? A lot of you Bush bashers seem to have a whole lot of nothing to say - let's see if you can actually support your point.

I would truly not be surprised if this happened, espicially if the parents were of arab, muslim, black(or two of the previous) or descended from any other middle eastern tribe.

Where in Virginia? And how exactly Bush do that ? A lot of you Bush bashers seem to have a whole lot of nothing to say - let's see if you can actually support your point.

Bush and his puppeteers granted Security Forces the authority to do such things, and encouraged them.

Where in Virginia? And how exactly Bush do that ? A lot of you Bush bashers seem to have a whole lot of nothing to say - let's see if you can actually support your point.

I'm not sure if that story's true, but if it WAS, the police would probably be allowed to do it because of the Patriot Act, which, if I remember correctly, was Bush's baby.

Well, it makes sense.
Kids tend to repeat what they hear at home, and if the kids parents were, say, plotting to blow up their town hall or local military base, their kid would most likely say things like that.
As to the length, police questioning tends to take a long time. Cops like to hold people up.
maybe we can give the children who turn their parents in for statements against the reich, i mean america special awards for service to the reich, i mean candy

yah, let's do it! No, better yet, let's tell them we'll do it and then when they do, abandone them! And if they complain, we'll throw them in prison for being "un-patriotic"!

God bless America!

Hiya, Red Arrow.

Where in Virginia? And how exactly Bush do that ? A lot of you Bush bashers seem to have a whole lot of nothing to say - let's see if you can actually support your point.
in the state of Virginina and in the nation of here Bush has spent the last four years equating anyone who opposed his facist excesses of being a "terrorist" so its no wonder that cops would get to the point of harassing people for speaking out against Bushs crimes against humanity in Iraq

Hiya, Red Arrow.
hey New Anthrus where have you been?

hey New Anthrus where have you been?
Around. Is it really you? I notice similarities between this name, and the last two names of The Red Arrow/MKULTRA complex.

First of all, assuming this story is true (may or may not be the case), I think it's only prudent for the police to look into something like this. Kids at that age DO tend to believe anything they are told by their parents. It forms the core of their beliefs until they are old/mature enough to start making their own opinions. I'm 20 years old and I'm really only starting to drift slightly away from my parents' beliefs (although mind you I'm still far closer to their views than apart from them).
Now, if I were that student's teacher, I would be worried about what he said and I would also bring it up to the principal. From that point on, it would be the principal's decision whether or not to take it any farther.
"I wish all Americans were dead and that all American soldiers should die." When you hear that, you have to wonder what this kid's being told at home. There is always that chance that maybe, just maybe this could be the one break that could allow terrorists to be caught before they can do damage.

That being said, please don't start bashing me for "supporting Bush" or whatever, because I do NOT support him.

Around. Is it really you? I notice similarities between this name, and the last two names of The Red Arrow/MKULTRA complex.
any similiaritys in names must be purely unconscuss but your right that its me

First of all, assuming this story is true (may or may not be the case), I think it's only prudent for the police to look into something like this. Kids at that age DO tend to believe anything they are told by their parents. It forms the core of their beliefs until they are old/mature enough to start making their own opinions. I'm 20 years old and I'm really only starting to drift slightly away from my parents' beliefs (although mind you I'm still far closer to their views than apart from them).
Now, if I were that student's teacher, I would be worried about what he said and I would also bring it up to the principal. From that point on, it would be the principal's decision whether or not to take it any farther.
"I wish all Americans were dead and that all American soldiers should die." When you hear that, you have to wonder what this kid's being told at home. There is always that chance that maybe, just maybe this could be the one break that could allow terrorists to be caught before they can do damage.

That being said, please don't start bashing me for "supporting Bush" or whatever, because I do NOT support him.The cops had no right to intimidate the family by questioning them the way they did-Im not saying they shouldnt be alert but what did they gain by terrorizing them other then attempting to crush peoples right to dissent?

An eleven year old wishing all Americans dead is a far cry from an eleven year old plotting to blow up military installations. This is just as ridiculous as the Zero Tolerance school policies where kids get expelled for carrying nail clippers and being put in prison for stealing an ice cream sandwich.

If it's true, then clearly whoever gets elected next term will need a lot of honeybuckets to clean up the shit Bush leaves behind... if there's still a United States of America intact by then.

An eleven year old wishing all Americans dead is a far cry from an eleven year old plotting to blow up military installations. This is just as ridiculous as the Zero Tolerance school policies where kids get expelled for carrying nail clippers and being put in prison for stealing an ice cream sandwich.

If it's true, then clearly whoever gets elected next term will need a lot of honeybuckets to clean up the shit Bush leaves behind... if there's still a United States of America intact by then.
everytime zero tolerance oppression abuses any schoolkids their parents and the ACLU should sue that school district for civil rights violations

any similiaritys in names must be purely unconscuss but your right that its me
How could've I guessed?

The cops had no right to intimidate the family by questioning them the way they did-Im not saying they shouldnt be alert but what did they gain by terrorizing them other then attempting to crush peoples right to dissent?
There's a difference between "questioning" and "terrorizing."
An eleven year old wishing all Americans dead is a far cry from an eleven year old plotting to blow up military installations. This is just as ridiculous as the Zero Tolerance school policies where kids get expelled for carrying nail clippers and being put in prison for stealing an ice cream sandwich.

If it's true, then clearly whoever gets elected next term will need a lot of honeybuckets to clean up the shit Bush leaves behind... if there's still a United States of America intact by then.
I didn't mean the 11 year old, I meant the parents. In a situation where a kid says something like that, it may be prudent to check out the parents and maybe even question them.

How could've I guessed?
we're all physic deep down

There's a difference between "questioning" and "terrorizing."

I didn't mean the 11 year old, I meant the parents. In a situation where a kid says something like that, it may be prudent to check out the parents and maybe even question them.
maybe they can quietly watch them for a bit to see if theres something there but to actually confront them over something as vague as this is overkill

maybe they can quietly watch them for a bit to see if theres something there but to actually confront them over something as vague as this is overkill
Maybe it is, but people do get a bit touchy about these things anymore.

Can I please have a link to the story? I can't even find it on VA news websites! If this is true, then maybe a new documentary on post 9/11ism and how the terrorists have actually won by making people scared ^&$@less, and not directed by Michael Moore would be good.

Can I please have a link to the story? I can't even find it on VA news websites! If this is true, then maybe a new documentary on post 9/11ism and how the terrorists have actually won by making people scared ^&$@less, and not directed by Michael Moore would be good.
Amen to that.

How could've I guessed?
Because from the very title of the thread it feels like MKULTRA ... though suprized to see it was not from democracynow

Things have gotten doubleplusungood :(

The cops had no right to intimidate the family by questioning them the way they did-Im not saying they shouldnt be alert but what did they gain by terrorizing them other then attempting to crush peoples right to dissent?
The police not only have the right, they have the obligation to see what is behind such extreme statements.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A64726-2004Dec14.html <-- I believe this is the link, but you need to be a subscriber/registered to read it.

I can tell you, as an educator, that since Columbine, such remarks ARE taken quite seriously -- as no one thought two teens were going to bomb and shoot up their school and did not take their threats seriously.

maybe they can quietly watch them for a bit to see if theres something there but to actually confront them over something as vague as this is overkill
Are you suggesting it is prefferable to surreptitiously observe the family rather than have it out on the table? Which approach do you consider less threatening to their civil rights?

Are you suggesting it is prefferable to surreptitiously observe the family rather than have it out on the table? Which approach do you consider less threatening to their civil rights?
we're talking about an 11 year old kid for starters- I think cops and the school district can learn to try and put things in perspective-if his parents really were terrorists what good would questioning them do anyway? its not like theyre going to admit it--as for Columbine that was a special case--those shooters were older and were bullied to within an inch of their lives and driven to such acts and the school district shares the blame for that--that case shoudnt be considered the norm tho

we're talking about an 11 year old kid for starters- I think cops and the school district can learn to try and put things in perspective-if his parents really were terrorists what good would questioning them do anyway? its not like theyre going to admit it--as for Columbine that was a special case--those shooters were older and were bullied to within an inch of their lives and driven to such acts and the school district shares the blame for that--that case shoudnt be considered the norm tho
How about the other school shootings ? I mean how many more does it take to make people more worried about that?

The cops had no right to intimidate the family by questioning them the way they did-Im not saying they shouldnt be alert but what did they gain by terrorizing them other then attempting to crush peoples right to dissent?
They did not crush their dissent and the parents were not nor was the child ever arressted from the sound of it....The yhad to investigate...Wha tdo you want them to do?" Did you teach your child to say this Mr and mrs. Smithe?"
"No officer we did not...."
"Ok then Mr. and Mrs. Smithe have a good day...."
Cop walks away......
"OK honey get out the Semtac ...I heard that the 82nd Airborne is deploying soon. Maybe we can nail a barracks or two before they go out on mission...."
I am not saying they are terrorists but if an attack had happened and it got oout that the cops had not investigated the people would have had a coniption fit...

I don't mean to nitpick here...but howizit I can't find anything in the washington post about this stuff?
Cause it didn't really happen?

Cause it didn't really happen?
Lol for some reason I have the urge to check democracynow … after I get done recompiling my kernel maybe

isn't this a pretty little shitstorm we have here?

well...for starters.....i would definitely question anyone saying that all americans should be killed.....and that all marines should die.....i am a marine and an american, so that kinda puts me in there......and couldn't that be suicidal remark too if that child is an american.....lol.....well....the point is that any child that goes around spewing things like that is going to get some negative attention at some point based on those so called beliefs....and thse beliefs were mostly propagated by his parents if by anyone.....this is all assuming that tis isn't some anti-american propaganda that seems to permeate the entire internet culture nowadays.....

These parents were questioned...they were not interrogated, tortured, etc....(this is still assuing that it is true).....this is not a breach of civil rights....and no.....you do not need a warrent to question someone......esp if they comply readily......this is a load of crap and should be dealt with as such

*shits on thread*

isn't this a pretty little shitstorm we have here?

well...for starters.....i would definitely question anyone saying that all americans should be killed.....and that all marines should die.....i am a marine and an american, so that kinda puts me in there......and couldn't that be suicidal remark too if that child is an american.....lol.....well....the point is that any child that goes around spewing things like that is going to get some negative attention at some point based on those so called beliefs....and thse beliefs were mostly propagated by his parents if by anyone.....this is all assuming that tis isn't some anti-american propaganda that seems to permeate the entire internet culture nowadays.....

These parents were questioned...they were not interrogated, tortured, etc....(this is still assuing that it is true).....this is not a breach of civil rights....and no.....you do not need a warrent to question someone......esp if they comply readily......this is a load of crap and should be dealt with as such

*shits on thread*

quote from the actual article says:
Albaugh described her son as a rambunctious student who has long opposed armies of any kind. He refused the Veterans Day assignment and told his teacher that the Marines "might as well die, as much as I care." Whatever was said, the words had been the source of anguished conferences, phone calls and, ultimately, a day of in-school suspension.

"they can die for all i care" is different to "i want all americans to die".

the school however reported it as him saying he wanted american marines to die.

which one was right? who knows.

The police not only have the right, they have the obligation to see what is behind such extreme statements.
You have never said anything like :"I wish you all were dead!" I remember I have. When I was about 11 and pissed of something. Did I mean it? of course not.

Paranoia will destroy ya...

How about the other school shootings ? I mean how many more does it take to make people more worried about that?
2 things can stop that-schools adopting anti-bullying programs and stop the forced drugging of kids with violence inducing poisons like ritalin prozac and other mind control drugs

Hi Skapedroe.

kids also can have opinions of their own too

Hi Skapedroe.
hail comrade

Considering that novelists have their houses searched for researching about the Middle East (http://www.geocities.com/arancaytar/nanowrimo/dilyn-article.html), Bush-critical bloggers can expect late-night visits from the secret service (http://www.livejournal.com/users/anniesj/331112.html#cutid1), and US troops are shooting 12-year-old terrorist girls in Iraq (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8012117%255E1702,00.html), I have no problem at all believing this is true. What's new about it?

Times are changing and the school system is evolving. Parents should be thankful that in this day and age with full size classrooms that they are still being regulated. Risk and safety management is a large part of what Principles of schools are taught after so many school shootings and violent incodents. They are accessing a situation and if my child was in that school I would commend the staff for protecting my blood, my baby. I am trying to empathize with those that feel harrassed but protecting children simply outweighs all my ethical views. Violence is violence no matter how the message is portrayed. In no way is my view a conformity to society or the government but a matter of survival in a cruel, cruel world.

Your statement appears to boil down to "I have no problem with investigators interrogating critics, as long as it's a followup to violent statements made by an 11-year old." Based on that, we could have secret service conducting house searches after elementary school kids threaten to "beat the crap" out of one another. >_<

If this was highschool, or college, there'd be more to your point (though I'd still disagree; political dissenters in America have a stunningly poor record of starting school massacres, though some have been killed by them (http://www.ustrek.org/odyssey/semester2/040401/040401beckykent.html).

Also, it appears there has been some doubt about the validity of this story and its existence on Washington Post.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A64726-2004Dec14?language=printer

I think saying that children follow their parent's opinion is bullshit ^^.
I have never followed my parent's opinion about hunting. They don't really care, and never talk about it, but I hate it. I have never been "on the fence" about it.

This isn't an invite to talk about hunting, I'm just saying...

"His parents said the boy's words were those of a confused adolescent"

What the f? This boy is 11 years old! Not 16! He's entitled to his own opinion, and no-one can stop him.

Lol. Funny.

Serves the kid right though.

You think so? You think it serves people right to get harassed this way? I think it would serve Bush right if someone made more than threats to him.

---

There, I said it. Let's see them come over and ship me off to Guantanamo.

Isn't this supposed to be the info age? Don't we have the Patriot Act to help circumvent this direct and confrontational appraoch by Law enforcement. I mean, couldn't the Authorities conduct a sneap-and-peak warant or bug the phones, do a background and financial check, and use surveillance for a while to determine if any of this family was real threat to national security. It's not that I'm trying to be sarcastic or flipant or dismissive of the implications of such activites under the Patriot Act. I just don't get why the authorities aren't using the powers they supposedly have been given. Unless this is one of those areas where the Patriot Act is under contention and not being utilized. The other unless is that they wanted to send some kind of strong-arm message to this family and the community which I see as just another kind of bullying and intimidation.

Regardless, the moral of this story -- watch what you say in public.

Regardless, the moral of this story -- watch what you say in public.

Precisely.

isn't this a pretty little shitstorm we have here?

well...for starters.....i would definitely question anyone saying that all americans should be killed.....and that all marines should die.....i am a marine and an american, so that kinda puts me in there......and couldn't that be suicidal remark too if that child is an american.....lol.....well....the point is that any child that goes around spewing things like that is going to get some negative attention at some point based on those so called beliefs....and thse beliefs were mostly propagated by his parents if by anyone.....this is all assuming that tis isn't some anti-american propaganda that seems to permeate the entire internet culture nowadays.....

These parents were questioned...they were not interrogated, tortured, etc....(this is still assuing that it is true).....this is not a breach of civil rights....and no.....you do not need a warrent to question someone......esp if they comply readily......this is a load of crap and should be dealt with as such

*shits on thread*

YAWN!

*this is the kind of Big Govt Terror Infrastructure Bush is creating to crush dissent in America nationwide

the Washington Post reports two police officers recently visited the home of an 11-year-old and questioned his parents for three hours about anti-American comments their son made in school The student had refused to participate in a Veterans Day exercise and criticized the Marines. The school claimed he had said, "I wish all Americans were dead and that American soldiers should die." The Police questioned his parents about their views on Sept. 11, the military and if they knew any foreigners who criticized US policy. They also inquired whether the parents might be teaching "anti-American values" at home. The mother, Pamela Allbaugh, told the Washington Post "It was intimidating. I told them it's like a George Orwell novel, that it felt like they were the thought police." She went on to say "If someone would have asked me five years ago if this was something my government would do, I would have said never."
WashingtonPost.com
I'm still waiting to hear how they were hurt, abused, injured, incarcerated, intimidated, threatened, harmed, or even had their poor widdle feewings hurted! Heh!

The police not only have the right, they have the obligation to see what is behind such extreme statements.
Nonsense. Absolute fucking nonsense. It is not a crime to wish someone dead.

Risk and safety management is a large part of what Principles of schools are taught after so many school shootings and violent incodents. They are accessing a situation and if my child was in that school I would commend the staff for protecting my blood, my baby. I am trying to empathize with those that feel harrassed but protecting children simply outweighs all my ethical views.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" --Benjamin Franklin

Face it, you're a safety nazi.

I'm still waiting to hear how they were hurt, abused, injured, incarcerated, intimidated, threatened, harmed, or even had their poor widdle feewings hurted! Heh!

You have to admit it was a bit of dick move there E.

I'm still waiting to hear how they were hurt, abused, injured, incarcerated, intimidated, threatened, harmed, or even had their poor widdle feewings hurted! Heh!
It's rather hard to proove that they FELT intimidated or threathened. It's not like we were there. But it'S a safe bet they were. When the police knock on your door, you don't feel like it's super-happy-fun-time.

It's rather hard to proove that they FELT intimidated or threathened. It's not like we were there. But it'S a safe bet they were. When the police knock on your door, you don't feel like it's super-happy-fun-time.
oh sure, most people feel intimidated when authority figures question them about something that they may have done wrong, but I don't whine when a cop pulls me over because my car matches some description. The police were doing their job in this instance which certainly makes a lot of people feel less threatened.

Originally Posted by Battery Charger
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" --Benjamin Franklin
Franklin also never lived to see wireless detonation of explosives, air travel, rockets that can reach any place on Earth, weapons capable of leveling entire cities or decimating whole populations.

Yeah, but how does any of that have relevance with following up a mis-interpreted statement from an 11 year old?

OMG HE GONNA NUUK JOO!

That is terrifying. I have posted the link in my own LJ to inform people.

I like this quote


She was aware of an incident at Belmont Ridge Middle School in which her son, Yishai Asido, was assigned to write a letter to U.S. Marines and responded, according to his teacher, by saying, "I wish all Americans were dead and that American soldiers should die." Yishai and Albaugh deny that the boy wished his countrymen dead.


LOL she knew about it but denies it … the kids words don’t leave much room for argument.

Though from the Full article (thanks whoever found it again (cant remember the name)) it sounds mostly like they really were worried post columbine about excessive and violent statements.

And generally opinions such as these don’t come out of thin air (but does not mean parents were the source … just a possible one)



So essentially it boils down to this … a student makes a few rather violent and hateful statements (some encompassing his classmates) manages to get himself suspended … and the police looked into the matter
They went there questioned her … when there was nothing to find … they left, no warnings no charges.

I mean we can maybe question where the questioning itself went (though it didn’t SEEM that bad … could be more to it) but as too them being there to question in the first place I don’t really see what is wrong with it. (like I said they just TALKED to her …)

God bless free speech because it's an endangered species in America.

It was only an investigation. Police are allowed to investigate.

During the Washington DC sniper shootings, thousands of legitimate, innocent gun owners were questioned by local police and Federal agents more than once each to ask about their whereabouts and to ask and see if they owned any weapons that might be like the one used in the shootings. Some weapons were even confiscated without a warrant or legal proceeding and tested to see if they matched the weapon used in the shooting.

You will note carefully that absolutely NOTHING came of all that questioning, all that illegal confiscation, and all that testing.

The criminal who committed the act was not a Maryland resident. He didn't buy his gun at a store. And he was never on the list of people to be questioned as the rest of us were - by the thousand.

If a subject is politically hot enough, whether it's locals demanding that shootings stop or the average American voter demanding more anti-terror enforcement, people will be questioned - which is not illegal. There will also be steps taken in violation of the law - confiscation, seizure without warrant, imprisonment without charge - you name it, the abuse WILL take place.

And it doesn't matter if it's the US or some other country.

I think the real problem here was the extreme reaction by the school. Why immediately bring the cops into it?
What was wrong with asking the parents in for a meeting to discuss their child's behaviour and attitude? Or going around there to meet them if they couldn't come in?
The school really needs to be sued over this. A kid makes a negative comment and they're sending the cops round to interrogate the parents. It's pathetic. It really is.

It's rather hard to proove that they FELT intimidated or threathened. It's not like we were there. But it'S a safe bet they were. When the police knock on your door, you don't feel like it's super-happy-fun-time.

I do. It means my wife is home from work. :D

I think the real problem here was the extreme reaction by the school. Why immediately bring the cops into it?
What was wrong with asking the parents in for a meeting to discuss their child's behaviour and attitude? Or going around there to meet them if they couldn't come in?
The school really needs to be sued over this. A kid makes a negative comment and they're sending the cops round to interrogate the parents. It's pathetic. It really is.
It did not sound immediate … or an action of the school at all (read the full article)

The school dealt directly with the parents … informed them of what was going on and took steps… and the police just showed up at some later date

Not sure if it was a direct action from the school

It did not sound immediate … or an action of the school at all (read the full article)

The school dealt directly with the parents … informed them of what was going on and took steps… and the police just showed up at some later date

Not sure if it was a direct action from the school
Yes it is, because the school informed the police. Why bring the police into it at all? Why couldn't this have been dealt with by having a meeting with the parents at school with the child's teacher, the principal and perhaps the guidance counsellor?
To ring up the parents and tell them their child has been saying bad things at school and the police have been informed IS pathetic of the school.

i don't know what was posted on the LAST page as i didn't feel like readin it....but the secret service investigating you is HIGHYLY unlikely......the secret service has 2 functions and ONLY 2 functions....the protect the president's person........and they investigave counterfeiting....THAT IS ALL THEY DO!!!! Anyone who tells you otherwise is spewing anti-bush propaganda....

oh sure, most people feel intimidated when authority figures question them about something that they may have done wrong, but I don't whine when a cop pulls me over because my car matches some description. The police were doing their job in this instance which certainly makes a lot of people feel less threatened.

they were questioned for 3+ hours about "anti-american" activities, thats not like being pulled over cuz the you and the get away car for a robbery are the same and saying oh thats alright and driving off

it couldve been worse, they couldve arrested a 10 year old for having a pair of scissors at schoo... oh wait they did that...

i don't know what was posted on the LAST page as i didn't feel like readin it....but the secret service investigating you is HIGHYLY unlikely......the secret service has 2 functions and ONLY 2 functions....the protect the president's person........and they investigave counterfeiting....THAT IS ALL THEY DO!!!! Anyone who tells you otherwise is spewing anti-bush propaganda....
or is counterfeiting bills

i don't know what was posted on the LAST page as i didn't feel like readin it....but the secret service investigating you is HIGHYLY unlikely......the secret service has 2 functions and ONLY 2 functions....the protect the president's person........and they investigave counterfeiting....THAT IS ALL THEY DO!!!! Anyone who tells you otherwise is spewing anti-bush propaganda....
I always got confused why they had BOTH of thoes functions ... just seems like a wierd combination of duty's

Actually, if in the course of any other form of speech, you make any threatening statements concerning any person under Secret Service protection (and the list is quite long), you can be investigated for saying or writing those things.

And if they find in the course of the investigation, that you have any material possessions that imply an ability to carry out those threats, they prosecute.

It's called executive protection. And it's very pro-active.

I would like to note that I cannot think of any first-world, so-called democratic nation apart from the US that would send investigators to question an adult who made such statements - let alone an 11-year-old.

I would further like to note that the last time I remember reading about similar events in the history of my country was around 65 years ago.

*this is the kind of Big Govt Terror Infrastructure Bush is creating to crush dissent in America nationwide

the Washington Post reports two police officers recently visited the home of an 11-year-old and questioned his parents for three hours about anti-American comments their son made in school The student had refused to participate in a Veterans Day exercise and criticized the Marines. The school claimed he had said, "I wish all Americans were dead and that American soldiers should die." The Police questioned his parents about their views on Sept. 11, the military and if they knew any foreigners who criticized US policy. They also inquired whether the parents might be teaching "anti-American values" at home. The mother, Pamela Allbaugh, told the Washington Post "It was intimidating. I told them it's like a George Orwell novel, that it felt like they were the thought police." She went on to say "If someone would have asked me five years ago if this was something my government would do, I would have said never."
WashingtonPost.com

I believe in free speech and all, but what the kid said went way too far. I don't see why this is such a big deal. I mean, it's not like they threw the kid and his parents in jail or anything.

Considering that novelists have their houses searched for researching about the Middle East (http://www.geocities.com/arancaytar/nanowrimo/dilyn-article.html), Bush-critical bloggers can expect late-night visits from the secret service (http://www.livejournal.com/users/anniesj/331112.html#cutid1), and US troops are shooting 12-year-old terrorist girls in Iraq (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8012117%255E1702,00.html), I have no problem at all believing this is true. What's new about it?
its also not surprizing considering that this kind of behavior fits in well with Bushs sick and perverted value system

Times are changing and the school system is evolving. Parents should be thankful that in this day and age with full size classrooms that they are still being regulated. Risk and safety management is a large part of what Principles of schools are taught after so many school shootings and violent incodents. They are accessing a situation and if my child was in that school I would commend the staff for protecting my blood, my baby. I am trying to empathize with those that feel harrassed but protecting children simply outweighs all my ethical views. Violence is violence no matter how the message is portrayed. In no way is my view a conformity to society or the government but a matter of survival in a cruel, cruel world.
I understand your concern but this is a case of overkill and punishing dissent not safety

at most the kid shouldve been suspended, at least there shouldve been a parent teacher conference, at not point anywhere between there should the police have been contacted, much less sent out interrogating people

Isn't this supposed to be the info age? Don't we have the Patriot Act to help circumvent this direct and confrontational appraoch by Law enforcement. I mean, couldn't the Authorities conduct a sneap-and-peak warant or bug the phones, do a background and financial check, and use surveillance for a while to determine if any of this family was real threat to national security. It's not that I'm trying to be sarcastic or flipant or dismissive of the implications of such activites under the Patriot Act. I just don't get why the authorities aren't using the powers they supposedly have been given. Unless this is one of those areas where the Patriot Act is under contention and not being utilized. The other unless is that they wanted to send some kind of strong-arm message to this family and the community which I see as just another kind of bullying and intimidation.

Regardless, the moral of this story -- watch what you say in public.watch what you say but continue the resistance to Americas first Dictator

watch what you say but continue the resistance to Americas first Dictator

Bush is not America's first dictator. Lincoln was. FDR was a dictator, as well.

oh sure, most people feel intimidated when authority figures question them about something that they may have done wrong, but I don't whine when a cop pulls me over because my car matches some description. The police were doing their job in this instance which certainly makes a lot of people feel less threatened.


Franklin also never lived to see wireless detonation of explosives, air travel, rockets that can reach any place on Earth, weapons capable of leveling entire cities or decimating whole populations.
what about the people being threatened by cops over enforcing the law? Franklin lived times that were equally oppressive and even tho they didnt have all that high tech weaponry peoples lives were no less safer. If your so concerned about nuclear catastrophe then why dont you criticize the Bush administration that ended all the Clinton programs that were dealing with nukes on the black market? I think thats a more realistic approach then sending cops to intimidate harmless families over a statement an infant made

It was only an investigation. Police are allowed to investigate.

During the Washington DC sniper shootings, thousands of legitimate, innocent gun owners were questioned by local police and Federal agents more than once each to ask about their whereabouts and to ask and see if they owned any weapons that might be like the one used in the shootings. Some weapons were even confiscated without a warrant or legal proceeding and tested to see if they matched the weapon used in the shooting.

You will note carefully that absolutely NOTHING came of all that questioning, all that illegal confiscation, and all that testing.

The criminal who committed the act was not a Maryland resident. He didn't buy his gun at a store. And he was never on the list of people to be questioned as the rest of us were - by the thousand.

If a subject is politically hot enough, whether it's locals demanding that shootings stop or the average American voter demanding more anti-terror enforcement, people will be questioned - which is not illegal. There will also be steps taken in violation of the law - confiscation, seizure without warrant, imprisonment without charge - you name it, the abuse WILL take place.

And it doesn't matter if it's the US or some other country.it was a statement made by an 11 year old schoolkid and the cops were intimidating not investigating

and the dc sniper shootings were a crime in progess, that had to be solved. it was a pre teen kid at school going "i hate america" hours of police interrogation is not needed here

I think the real problem here was the extreme reaction by the school. Why immediately bring the cops into it?
What was wrong with asking the parents in for a meeting to discuss their child's behaviour and attitude? Or going around there to meet them if they couldn't come in?
The school really needs to be sued over this. A kid makes a negative comment and they're sending the cops round to interrogate the parents. It's pathetic. It really is.
zero tolerance facism by school districts--people should file lawsuits everytime it occurs

I believe in free speech and all, but what the kid said went way too far. I don't see why this is such a big deal. I mean, it's not like they threw the kid and his parents in jail or anything.
the kid and his family were exposed to psychological terrorism by govt jackboots in Bushs police state amerikkka

Bush is not America's first dictator. Lincoln was. FDR was a dictator, as well.
Lincoln and FDR never criminalized dissent

Lincoln and FDR never criminalized dissent

Yes, they did.

:headbang: Frankly, I don't know what's "going down" anymore, but by the time we DO know where all this is headed, it will probably be too late. Freedoms are usually lost gradually over time, so nobody really notices very much, and the incidents are almost always "little things" like this. BUT, after Columbine and 9/11, I'm afraid the price of NOT checking might be worse. Mind you, I see a lot of Orwellian logic being applied today, which scares me, yet without the ability to see the future we're pretty much screwed, no matter what. Worse, we have a bunch of LOONIES in control of the ACLU, when we need this kind of Constitutional watchdog the most. At 55, I've seen McCarthyism, Kent State, Watergate, and Dubya just gives me chills. Not that he's evil, or fascist; actually, he seems sincere and reasonably intelligent. Unfortunately, he and his party have been taken over by extremist conservatives---who, again, are sincere and intelligent people! It would be sooo much easier if we could find a VILLAIN here (okay, Osama and Al Quaida, but I'm talking about AMERICA), yet all I see are people who share a common concern for democracy---except differ on what to DO. Sigh. Yeah, I know, you could say that a lot of Germans who backed Hitler ALSO were sincere, etc. I guess I'm old enough to see TOO many sides to this. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed.

God bless free speech because it's an endangered species in America.

Free speech comes with responsibilities -- you can say what you like, but there are consequences. Or does no one remember the Supreme Court's famous decision about shouting Fire in a crowded theater?

Because of Columbine and the many many MANY other incidents like it, I can tell you that teachers are required to report anything that a student says or does that implies they might do harm to themselves or to other people -- as much to protect the student himself as others. There have been a number of times in my career that a word in the guidance counselor's ear has gotten a suicidal student help.

Lincoln and FDR never criminalized dissent

Are you JOKING? Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus and jailed people for years on suspicion they might be allied with the enemy.... oh, wait...

It might help to keep in mind that sincerity does not equate to being right. A great part of the sincere Hitler-supporters were deceived by his well-greased propaganda machine. The term "Gleichschaltung der Medien", or "Synchronization of the Media", comes from that time. It means to surreptiously take control of all branches of public information and make them say the same things, so as to shield the population from any influence running counter to your intentions.

It is what I think of when I see, side by side, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Jerry Falwell... the Sinclair network owned by Murdoch...

How could've I guessed?

Maybe it's his refusal to make a logically valid argument that seemed familiar to you.

watch what you say but continue the resistance to Americas first Dictator

Define dictator, and demonstrate that Bush fits the definition.

Lincoln and FDR never criminalized dissent

If we're talking about criminalizing dissent, then John Adams was America's first dictator.

As someone else said earlier, the problem here is not a government conspiracy to suppress dissent, but an overreaction by one school, notifying the police (who have a responsibility to conduct a serious investigation of matters brought to them by the schools) instead of keeping the matter within the school and conducting a conference with the child's parents.

It might help to keep in mind that sincerity does not equate to being right. A great part of the sincere Hitler-supporters were deceived by his well-greased propaganda machine. The term "Gleichschaltung der Medien", or "Synchronization of the Media", comes from that time. It means to surreptiously take control of all branches of public information and make them say the same things, so as to shield the population from any influence running counter to your intentions.

It is what I think of when I see, side by side, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, Jerry Falwell... the Sinclair network owned by Murdoch...

Er... I hate to break it to you, but there's a whole other side to the American media that you're completely ignoring.

As someone else said earlier, the problem here is not a government conspiracy to suppress dissent, but an overreaction by one school, notifying the police (who have a responsibility to conduct a serious investigation of matters brought to them by the schools) instead of keeping the matter within the school and conducting a conference with the child's parents.

Yes, but you don't understand -- that doesn't fit the AGENDA.

Yes, but you don't understand -- that doesn't fit the AGENDA.

My mistake. I'll try not to introduce any more rational thought into this thread. ;)

Er... I hate to break it to you, but there's a whole other side to the American media that you're completely ignoring.

A side that is replaced, during prime time hours, with a propaganda documentary intended to smear a political opponent days before the election.
Not on behalf of Bush of course. The Synchronization you are witnessing is not the same as that one was, not "under one leader". Instead, it is the money that rules the world's most powerful nation. A good policy actually: Tell the rednecks you're a warhawk, tell the fundies you're a homophobe and give big bucks to big business. It'll all work out.

red?

*this is the kind of Big Govt Terror Infrastructure Bush is creating to crush dissent in America nationwide

the Washington Post reports two police officers recently visited the home of an 11-year-old and questioned his parents for three hours about anti-American comments their son made in school The student had refused to participate in a Veterans Day exercise and criticized the Marines. The school claimed he had said, "I wish all Americans were dead and that American soldiers should die." The Police questioned his parents about their views on Sept. 11, the military and if they knew any foreigners who criticized US policy. They also inquired whether the parents might be teaching "anti-American values" at home. The mother, Pamela Allbaugh, told the Washington Post "It was intimidating. I told them it's like a George Orwell novel, that it felt like they were the thought police." She went on to say "If someone would have asked me five years ago if this was something my government would do, I would have said never."
WashingtonPost.com
regardless of the stories' credibility, i can quite see this, or similar, happening in the modern day US. What kind of "free country" is it where the government tells people what they, even their children, can and cannot say? Freedom of speech my ass.
And the 'what might happen if we didn't check everybody' argument i simply do not agree with. The UK and Europe do not - could not - apply this mentality or policy; and yet we have almost no terrorist threats. or at least none that we hear of - the police manage to keep control of the situation without invading our freedom. Sure, the US is the primary target of the terrorists, but that's not to say that they have not both named Europe and specifically the UK as a target, and attempted terrorist attacks.
In my view the corrupt US government/Bush administration has used the media to blow this totally out of proportion and is using it as a method of tightening control on the people. not an original arguement i know but hey im ranting...

The kid was probably pissed off at some other American. And also, the parents don't have to let in the cops if they don't have a search warrant.

Ever heard of the Patriot act?

Personally I think there is nothing wrong with that. Now dont get me wrong, this is a clear act of the police using the patriot act, which I hate. But if the kid heard that at home, (and chances are he did) than it might mean his parents are terrorists. I mean think. Of course there is freedom of Speech and all, but from such a little boy, thats very bizare.

As someone else said earlier, the problem here is not a government conspiracy to suppress dissent, but an overreaction by one school, notifying the police (who have a responsibility to conduct a serious investigation of matters brought to them by the schools) instead of keeping the matter within the school and conducting a conference with the child's parents.

No one is suggesting that the government sent memos telling all the schools to contact federal authorities in cases of students voicing dissent.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't a conspiracy to suppress dissent. The fewer people "in" on the actual policy making of the "conspiracy" itself, the greater the chance that policy has to succeed.

Government feeds mainstream media its stories. It allows a lot of leeway in how those stories are interpreted, but if the journalists get too critical, or stray too far away from what should be printed then the government agencies will withhold information and then the paper or news show will suffer, because if they are not telling the same basic stories as all the other media, people will think that they aren't getting the news.

Maybe I'm not explaining it now. Here is an essay that says it better (and its from Lew Rockwell blog - not exacly uber liberal idealogy):
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo88.html

Anyway, the media colors people's perceptions. So they over-react. The people enforcing the suppression of dissent do not even have to be aware of what they are doing - in fact it is more effective when they aren't. So people start accepting things that they would have jumped all over before as 'just over-reacting' or 'just trying to protect us.' And as time goes by these over-reactions can and do become ever more extreme without upsetting people, because they get used to the abuse. Unless people speak out against these abuses, the abuses will come to be seen as NORMAL. The "conspiracy," if you will, is in the eroding of the shock value, and most of the people who participate have no idea that they are doing so.

Ask yourself - has over-policing made things safer really? Do you feel safer now or are you more likely to be afraid when you hear anything outside of an ever narrower confine of what is becoming acceptable speech? Has zero-tolerance decreased the amount of violence in schools, or does it just give people a false sense of security while fostering policies that actually do little to make people safer while doing a lot to step on personal freedoms?

It's rather hard to proove that they FELT intimidated or threathened. It's not like we were there. But it'S a safe bet they were. When the police knock on your door, you don't feel like it's super-happy-fun-time.
Well, since I've done nothing illegal, immoral or fattening ( well, maybe drop the fattening part ), I would welcome the police with an open door and an invitation to accept a cup of coffe or a can of Pepsi.

On the other hand, if I had a guilty conscience, or had committed some sort of criminal act, then, yes, I probably wouldn't feel like it's "super-happy-fun-time."

Where in Virginia? And how exactly Bush do that ? A lot of you Bush bashers seem to have a whole lot of nothing to say - let's see if you can actually support your point.


you like emo also, you should get something better to do than be a conservitive fan of emo

[QUOTE=Aeruillin]A side that is replaced, during prime time hours, with a propaganda documentary intended to smear a political opponent days before the election.

wtf are are you talking about......maybe smear against the right.....please give me examples.....

A side that is replaced, during prime time hours, with a propaganda documentary intended to smear a political opponent days before the election.
Not on behalf of Bush of course. The Synchronization you are witnessing is not the same as that one was, not "under one leader". Instead, it is the money that rules the world's most powerful nation. A good policy actually: Tell the rednecks you're a warhawk, tell the fundies you're a homophobe and give big bucks to big business. It'll all work out.

Could you be a little clearer about what you're trying to say?

I understand your concern but this is a case of overkill and punishing dissent not safety


It could very well be which is unfortunate that by the time it reached authority, that those authoritarian figures asked the wrong questions. But, the family already hated American authority so they were automatically on the defence. I would have taught my child to love his fellow man no matter what dissent rather then slue antiwar hatred. Poor little boy.

This is scary...if it's true, though I find it an intreguing coincidence that the age of the little kid is eleven when this occurred on Veteran's Day, which is the eleventh of November, the eleventh month.

I would like to note that I cannot think of any first-world, so-called democratic nation apart from the US that would send investigators to question an adult who made such statements - let alone an 11-year-old.

I would further like to note that the last time I remember reading about similar events in the history of my country was around 65 years ago.
Maybe they don't deal with it the same, but Europe's not big on free speech either. There's no such thing as legally defined 'hate speech' in the US.

This is scary...if it's true, though I find it an intreguing coincidence that the age of the little kid is eleven when this occurred on Veteran's Day, which is the eleventh of November, the eleventh month.

And secretly he has eleven toes!

This statement isn't being punished for being un-american. It's being punished as a threat against the students. The kid said s/he wished Americans would die. In the school system I went to, expressing a sentiment that one wished anyone would die would get you into deep deep shit.

It's part of the result of the Columbine shooting actually. The zero tolerance policies of the nineties are the causers of this, not anything else.

Free speech comes with responsibilities -- you can say what you like, but there are consequences. Or does no one remember the Supreme Court's famous decision about shouting Fire in a crowded theater?

Because of Columbine and the many many MANY other incidents like it, I can tell you that teachers are required to report anything that a student says or does that implies they might do harm to themselves or to other people -- as much to protect the student himself as others. There have been a number of times in my career that a word in the guidance counselor's ear has gotten a suicidal student help.
teachers shouldnt get cops involved with vague shit like this tho--this was a total overreaction and I think the teachers reported it to the cops more out of spite against what the kid was saying then any true safety concerns

Er... I hate to break it to you, but there's a whole other side to the American media that you're completely ignoring.
and that side is completely marginalized and doesnt reach a mass audience

red?
Kis post your anti-MTV rant

Personally I think there is nothing wrong with that. Now dont get me wrong, this is a clear act of the police using the patriot act, which I hate. But if the kid heard that at home, (and chances are he did) than it might mean his parents are terrorists. I mean think. Of course there is freedom of Speech and all, but from such a little boy, thats very bizare.
not really--Ive been expressing anti authority views since I was 5 years old

No one is suggesting that the government sent memos telling all the schools to contact federal authorities in cases of students voicing dissent.

But that doesn't mean that there isn't a conspiracy to suppress dissent. The fewer people "in" on the actual policy making of the "conspiracy" itself, the greater the chance that policy has to succeed.

Government feeds mainstream media its stories. It allows a lot of leeway in how those stories are interpreted, but if the journalists get too critical, or stray too far away from what should be printed then the government agencies will withhold information and then the paper or news show will suffer, because if they are not telling the same basic stories as all the other media, people will think that they aren't getting the news.

Maybe I'm not explaining it now. Here is an essay that says it better (and its from Lew Rockwell blog - not exacly uber liberal idealogy):
http://www.lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo88.html

Anyway, the media colors people's perceptions. So they over-react. The people enforcing the suppression of dissent do not even have to be aware of what they are doing - in fact it is more effective when they aren't. So people start accepting things that they would have jumped all over before as 'just over-reacting' or 'just trying to protect us.' And as time goes by these over-reactions can and do become ever more extreme without upsetting people, because they get used to the abuse. Unless people speak out against these abuses, the abuses will come to be seen as NORMAL. The "conspiracy," if you will, is in the eroding of the shock value, and most of the people who participate have no idea that they are doing so.

Ask yourself - has over-policing made things safer really? Do you feel safer now or are you more likely to be afraid when you hear anything outside of an ever narrower confine of what is becoming acceptable speech? Has zero-tolerance decreased the amount of violence in schools, or does it just give people a false sense of security while fostering policies that actually do little to make people safer while doing a lot to step on personal freedoms?
also if the media gets too rambunctious the CIA will threaten the individual reporters

Well, since I've done nothing illegal, immoral or fattening ( well, maybe drop the fattening part ), I would welcome the police with an open door and an invitation to accept a cup of coffe or a can of Pepsi.

On the other hand, if I had a guilty conscience, or had committed some sort of criminal act, then, yes, I probably wouldn't feel like it's "super-happy-fun-time."
this is the kind of attatude that breeds facism

Originally Posted by Skapedroe
and that side is completely marginalized and doesnt reach a mass audience
Ha! Falwell and most of the other "conservative" media personalities are the marginalized ones, and in most cases rightly so. I lean more towards conservative myself, but Anne Coulter doesn't seem to understand how the world works, let alone keep an open mind about it. Still, the mainstream media, specifically the entertainment industry, is liberal.

Originally Posted by Battery Charger
Maybe they don't deal with it the same, but Europe's not big on free speech either. There's no such thing as legally defined 'hate speech' in the US.

Maybe that isn't such a good thing...

also if the media gets too rambunctious the CIA will threaten the individual reporters

Back up this accusation.

teachers shouldnt get cops involved with vague shit like this tho--this was a total overreaction and I think the teachers reported it to the cops more out of spite against what the kid was saying then any true safety concerns

The idea that a teacher would report this 'out of spite' is completely out of touch with reality.

Let me explain what the chain of events would have been had this happened in my school.

The teacher, hearing a student making a statement about wishing others dead (or getting it in writing as an assignment that the child handed in) would have been required to report it to the child's guidance counselor -- a person who is trained specifically to decide if a statement or action a child makes constitutes a possible threat to himself or others.

If after interviewing the child the counselor could not definitively decide that the statement was not in fact a serious one, s/he might talk to the school psychologist, if there were one available. If not, it would go (in my school) to the assistant principal in charge of pupil personnel.

The assistant principal (who's the head of guidance) would then have to decide if this child might be a danger to himself or others. If s/he could not definitively say, "No, he is not," then it goes to the principal, who then has to make the judgment call.

I believe that if it has gotten to that point, the principal MUST report it to the police for investigation, regardless of what the school then decides. When the police were informed, it was because there was no longer any legal choice for the school.

Trust me, the LAST thing a school wants is to involve the police force IN ANY WAY with its day-to-day running of the school -- it is a last resort. Schools do NOT like bad publicity and media coming to them and saying, "Why are you harassing students," or "Why didn't you know little Johnny was planning to blow up the student cafeteria."

Ha! Falwell and most of the other "conservative" media personalities are the marginalized ones, and in most cases rightly so. I lean more towards conservative myself, but Anne Coulter doesn't seem to understand how the world works, let alone keep an open mind about it. Still, the mainstream media, specifically the entertainment industry, is liberal.



Maybe that isn't such a good thing...
the mainstream american media is deeply conservative and controlled-the entertainment industry is liberal because their educated but the entertainment industry doesnt exactly report the news

Entertainment is the mainstream American media. Compare the number of people who watch CNN on a regular basis (even if its just the nightly news) to the number of people who watch Spike TV, MTV, Comedy Central, etc. Or to the number of people who watched Friends, Will & Grace (pretty good), Survivor, Millionaire, or various other sitcoms and "reality TV" shows. And that isn't even counting the Disney Channel, Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon (sp?), or numerous others that show children's programming. More people know the names of celebrities than the names of their local news anchors, or even some of the major anchors. I consider the "mainstream" to be that which forms and perpetuates the popular culture.

And for reasons I don't quite get, the media is generally slanted toward the liberal (although it is not always a bad thing). It also seems to be slated towards the stupid, amoral, and easily amused. (No, I'm not implying any sort of connection between liberals and such programming. Many liberals I have met are just as upset as I am.) As a social conservative, I have to say that "Jackass" is not what I want the public to watch.

the mainstream american media is deeply conservative and controlled-the entertainment industry is liberal because their educated but the entertainment industry doesnt exactly report the news

Please show evidence that the American news media has a conservative slant.

The kid's statement was not antiwar really, nor was the school's handling of it indicative of any sort of oppressive-Patriot-Act-inspired pandemonial fear. The kid, an 11 year old, wished death upon all Americans, and marines. His lack of concern of life is concerning, and it would be terribly remiss of a teacher not to inform any higher ups of these statements. And you've lost your perspective if you think the teacher reporting this is inducive to a fascist society.

Generally speaking, I think to wish death upon entire groups of people is unhealthy, particularly for an 11 year old. As was stated in the report, the police, once notified, were required by law to talk to the parents. It did seem like the interview was somewhat long, and maybe too intrusive, but you have to realize that police are people, too, and for this one story that's somewhat outrageous, there are many more which are not.

Were I a police officer, and I wanted to ascertain why a child was making such comments in a public school, would I have to fear of asking the parents direct questions because I might be accused of fascism? Of course not. While I suspect that the police officers were being Pro-American, I can hardly blame them for that. Moreover, is it wrong to ask someone if he/she is teaching their child anti-American ideologies when you're trying to get to the bottom of a child's radical (particularly for the age) ideologies? No. Is it wrong to persecute them for that? Definitely. In this case, the police probably crossed the boundary, but people are human, and this doesn't mean the U.S. is sinking into a doubleplusbad state.

Entertainment is the mainstream American media. Compare the number of people who watch CNN on a regular basis (even if its just the nightly news) to the number of people who watch Spike TV, MTV, Comedy Central, etc. Or to the number of people who watched Friends, Will & Grace (pretty good), Survivor, Millionaire, or various other sitcoms and "reality TV" shows. And that isn't even counting the Disney Channel, Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon (sp?), or numerous others that show children's programming. More people know the names of celebrities than the names of their local news anchors, or even some of the major anchors. I consider the "mainstream" to be that which forms and perpetuates the popular culture.

And for reasons I don't quite get, the media is generally slanted toward the liberal (although it is not always a bad thing). It also seems to be slated towards the stupid, amoral, and easily amused. (No, I'm not implying any sort of connection between liberals and such programming. Many liberals I have met are just as upset as I am.) As a social conservative, I have to say that "Jackass" is not what I want the public to watch.yeah but my point was the media that reports NEWS isnt liberal oriented at all--it has a republican conservative corporate bias

Please show evidence that the American news media has a conservative slant.
FAIR.ORG and others have done extensive studies that have proven the bias

The kid's statement was not antiwar really, nor was the school's handling of it indicative of any sort of oppressive-Patriot-Act-inspired pandemonial fear. The kid, an 11 year old, wished death upon all Americans, and marines. His lack of concern of life is concerning, and it would be terribly remiss of a teacher not to inform any higher ups of these statements. And you've lost your perspective if you think the teacher reporting this is inducive to a fascist society.

Generally speaking, I think to wish death upon entire groups of people is unhealthy, particularly for an 11 year old. As was stated in the report, the police, once notified, were required by law to talk to the parents. It did seem like the interview was somewhat long, and maybe too intrusive, but you have to realize that police are people, too, and for this one story that's somewhat outrageous, there are many more which are not.

Were I a police officer, and I wanted to ascertain why a child was making such comments in a public school, would I have to fear of asking the parents direct questions because I might be accused of fascism? Of course not. While I suspect that the police officers were being Pro-American, I can hardly blame them for that. Moreover, is it wrong to ask someone if he/she is teaching their child anti-American ideologies when you're trying to get to the bottom of a child's radical (particularly for the age) ideologies? No. Is it wrong to persecute them for that? Definitely. In this case, the police probably crossed the boundary, but people are human, and this doesn't mean the U.S. is sinking into a doubleplusbad state.interrogating them for 3+ Hours?

interrogating them for 3+ Hours?
Actually, yes. In fact the situation was amazingly lenient. Such a comment in some Northeast Ohio schools could actually result in expulsion, as it would be treated as a threat against the students fellow students.

This kid should consider him/herself lucky.

Yes, if necessary.

I was just involved in a hit-and-run accident. Just filling out the report required better than an hour.

interrogating them for 3+ Hours?
As I said, it seems a bit much. But drop the word interrogating, as it happened in the people's home, and they could have kicked the police out anytime they wanted.

Right. The time has come to cut through all the bullshit and ask a question.

Do you think that it is right for the police to question the parents of a child who makes anti-war or anti-US marine comments?

There is, of course, a qualifier to this question:

Do you think it should be illegal for a person to make anti-war or anti-US marine comments?

Would you change your mind if the person was under the age of majority (voting age)?

Would you change your mind if those comments were "anti-American"?

What, in you opinion, are "anti-American" comments?

Right. The time has come to cut through all the bullshit and ask a question.

Do you think that it is right for the police to question the parents of a child who makes anti-war or anti-US marine comments?

There is, of course, a qualifier to this question:

Do you think it should be illegal for a person to make anti-war or anti-US marine comments?

Would you change your mind if the person was under the age of majority (voting age)?

Would you change your mind if those comments were "anti-American"?

What, in you opinion, are "anti-American" comments?

I'd suspect the big problem is the fact that the kid said that s/he wished that all American's would die.

Is saying you wish all Americans would die against the law? Should it be? Is it the correct usage of police time and manpower to investigate the parents of a child who states this opinion? Does it violate your opinion on what constitutes free speech? How do you feel about a child expressing this view? How do you feel about a person expressing this view, regardless of age?

Is saying you wish all Americans would die against the law? Should it be? Is it the correct usage of police time and manpower to investigate the parents of a child who states this opinion? Does it violate your opinion on what constitutes free speech? How do you feel about a child expressing this view? How do you feel about a person expressing this view, regardless of age?
The thing is it occured in a school. It's considered a threat against the safety of the fellow children in the school. And zero tolerance policies exist all across the nation. These policies are reactions to the Columbine school shooting.

I'm not a big fan of these policies, but they are the reason why this incident occured.

Does it infringe upon the safety of children for a person to express anti-war / anti-US marine / "anti-American" views? Would it infringe upon their safety if the "person" was a child? a teacher? an adult asked to speak at the school?

How about if the views were pro-war / pro-US marine / "pro-American"? Would that change your view? If a person expressed those views? If that person was a student? A teacher? An adult brought in to speak at the school?

Does it infringe upon the safety of children for a person to express anti-war / anti-US marine / "anti-American" views? Would it infringe upon their safety if the "person" was a child? a teacher? an adult asked to speak at the school?

How about if the views were pro-war / pro-US marine / "pro-American"? Would that change your view? If a person expressed those views? If that person was a student? A teacher? An adult brought in to speak at the school?
If the student were to say, shall we say "I wish all muslims would die" at school I believe it would be perfectly legit to do something along similiar lines. Espescially if a muslim child was attending the school. It can easily be taken as a threat against the child, and such it is not a good thing.

The kid's statements weren't only 'anti-american'-- he said he wished all Americans would die. Moreover, this was an eleven year old. The schools have to be watching out for unhealthy behavior--and yes, an 11-year old wishing death upon the rest of us is very unhealthy.

If the kid said, 'I believe war is wrong' or 'Americans are stupid as a whole' or some other such thing, I'd be pissed if he and his family were investigated. But that's not what happened, so don't try to act as if it is.

We need to crack down on these thoughtcrimes and keep our country doubleplusgood. :rolleyes:

The kid was probably pissed off at some other American. And also, the parents don't have to let in the cops if they don't have a search warrant.
While true, how many parents would insist on that if a cop turned up and asked if they could talk to them about their 11-year-old son?


I believe in free speech and all, but what the kid said went way too far. I don't see why this is such a big deal. I mean, it's not like they threw the kid and his parents in jail or anything.
Not yet, anyway. Wait til 2006. ;)

FAIR.ORG and others have done extensive studies that have proven the bias

Quit stalling and link the studies.

Right. The time has come to cut through all the bullshit and ask a question.

Do you think that it is right for the police to question the parents of a child who makes anti-war or anti-US marine comments?

As long as we're cutting through all the bullshit, let me point out once again that this is not about anti-war or anti-US marine comments. This is about comments perceived by the school as signs that the child was either A) emotionally distressed or B) dangerous to his fellow students. The school made the choice to inform the police, and once a school does this it is the responsibility, not the right of the police to investigate. You may disagree with the school's choice. You may believe that they misunderstood the student's comments, or overreacted to them. But whatever you think about this, the buck stops at a school official who in all likelihood was just trying to ensure that his school remained a safe environment.

the kid has no right to say the things he said in the constitution and the bill of rights there is no mention of child rights the only the adults of our beloved country have any rights knowing that the child heard these statements somewhere else is the disturbing part We live in a country that grants us more freedoms then any other nation in the world and all we can do about it is bitch cause its not good enough for the small minded individuals outthere it is easy to point the finger at bush but easier to point it at the childs parents the school and the police did the right thing by the statement I am in a military family and from military family and to know that ther are people taking advantage of the freedoms my family has helped to protect for the past 100 years is a disappointment......

Quit stalling and link the studies.


http://www.fair.org/media-woes/media-woes.html

For starters

I'm not sure if that story's true, but if it WAS, the police would probably be allowed to do it because of the Patriot Act, which, if I remember correctly, was Bush's baby.

No go read the Act again. Cops had a right to question folks for suspected beliefs LONG before Bush was in office. The Patriot act has mostly to do with cutting through red tape in terms of surveillance

Bush and his puppeteers granted Security Forces the authority to do such things, and encouraged them.

Bush nor his "puppeteers" do not have any control over municiple police forces, county police forces, state police etc etc unless they fall under Federal Jurisdiction. If the two cops were FBI agents it'd be a different story.

No go read the Act again. Cops had a right to question folks for suspected beliefs LONG before Bush was in office. The Patriot act has mostly to do with cutting through red tape in terms of surveillance


I ask again, with the implementation of the Patriot Act, why didn't the authorities just use this law and watch the family for a while to determine if they were actually a theat or not?

*this is the kind of Big Govt Terror Infrastructure Bush is creating to crush dissent in America nationwide

the Washington Post reports two police officers recently visited the home of an 11-year-old and questioned his parents for three hours about anti-American comments their son made in school The student had refused to participate in a Veterans Day exercise and criticized the Marines. The school claimed he had said, "I wish all Americans were dead and that American soldiers should die." The Police questioned his parents about their views on Sept. 11, the military and if they knew any foreigners who criticized US policy. They also inquired whether the parents might be teaching "anti-American values" at home. The mother, Pamela Allbaugh, told the Washington Post "It was intimidating. I told them it's like a George Orwell novel, that it felt like they were the thought police." She went on to say "If someone would have asked me five years ago if this was something my government would do, I would have said never."
WashingtonPost.com
Oh my god, what has america come to? *shakes head*

Someone had better get rid of Bush soon, and they'd better hurry up, 'cause civil rights in USA is rapidly becoming "Unheard Of."

Well, it makes sense.
Kids tend to repeat what they hear at home, and if the kids parents were, say, plotting to blow up their town hall or local military base, their kid would most likely say things like that.
As to the length, police questioning tends to take a long time. Cops like to hold people up.
Maybe this kid just says random stuff?

But yeah, considering what he said, they were right to question his parents. You can't live in a country where the police ignore what could be an illegal act.

Oh my god, what has america come to? *shakes head*

Someone had better get rid of Bush soon, and they'd better hurry up, 'cause civil rights in USA is rapidly becoming "Unheard Of."


Get rid of Bush and Cheney takes his place - and institutes martial law. Rumsfeld probably becomes VP. Now how's that for an upgrade?

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, KEEP GEORGE BUSH ALIVE!!!

I always got confused why they had BOTH of thoes functions ... just seems like a wierd combination of duty's

The Secret Service wasnt at first designed to protect the President. One of Lincolns last acts was to establish the agency and in the early 20th century it became their role to protect the President(The FBI didnt exist) and the U.S. Marshal Agency which would have been the logical choice was overlooked due to internal politics and so on..thats why.

I ask again, with the implementation of the Patriot Act, why didn't the authorities just use this law and watch the family for a while to determine if they were actually a theat or not?

Because while the Act cuts through the redtape, no self respecting judge is going to issue a warrant to watch a family because a kid said he wanted all americans to die. He'd tell the prosecutors to not waste the courts time and go gather other evidence which can be obtained through normal police methods. Not every little bit of suspected terrorism is covered under the Patriot Act

Entertainment is the mainstream American media. Compare the number of people who watch CNN on a regular basis (even if its just the nightly news) to the number of people who watch Spike TV, MTV, Comedy Central, etc. Or to the number of people who watched Friends, Will & Grace (pretty good), Survivor, Millionaire, or various other sitcoms and "reality TV" shows. And that isn't even counting the Disney Channel, Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon (sp?), or numerous others that show children's programming. More people know the names of celebrities than the names of their local news anchors, or even some of the major anchors. I consider the "mainstream" to be that which forms and perpetuates the popular culture.

And for reasons I don't quite get, the media is generally slanted toward the liberal (although it is not always a bad thing). It also seems to be slated towards the stupid, amoral, and easily amused. (No, I'm not implying any sort of connection between liberals and such programming. Many liberals I have met are just as upset as I am.) As a social conservative, I have to say that "Jackass" is not what I want the public to watch.

Entertainment media is pretty much totally controlled by the corporations. It is designed to lull people into being passive, non-thinking consumer-bots. On social issues it is slanted toward the liberal (cultural, sexual) because that is the message that sells goods. In more purely political issues it seems more moderate to conservative ( from what I have seen -admittedly I don't watch enough to have a decent statistical sampling -for the most part I hate entertainment television) although lately I must admit other than the social issues I see no real difference between what the US calls liberal and conservative anymore.

And final..the Supreme Court ruled awhile ago before Bush was president that freedom of speech does not extend to schools. Thats just how it goes. Cant sue the school or the police for doing their jobs. Oh..and if you threaten the President of the US(no matter who it is) it IS a crime. And the Secret Service WILL investigate the claim. They get thousands of 'em a year and run down each one to be on the safe side. Normally it takes them about 5-10 minutes for a case..someone joking and so on so forth...but freedom of speech in the US has its limitations

And for reasons I don't quite get, the media is generally slanted toward the liberal (although it is not always a bad thing).

That's not really true. While artists in the entertainment business are generally liberal, the executives who control content are generally more conservative. And the corporations themselves are typically apolitical. They are motivated by profits. Period. So if it sells, they'll air it if they can get away with it.

As a social conservative, I have to say that "Jackass" is not what I want the public to watch.

But that's what sells. That's your media bias. It's not liberal or conservative. It's $$$.

I think the problem in this case is not that the police investigated a kid for making inflammatory statements. And the statements were inflammatory.

It's that the police questioned the family for possibly teaching the kid "anti-American" statements. And that definitely flirts with the first amendment rights of the parents to free speech.

isn't this a pretty little shitstorm we have here?

well...for starters.....i would definitely question anyone saying that all americans should be killed.....and that all marines should die.....i am a marine and an american, so that kinda puts me in there......and couldn't that be suicidal remark too if that child is an american.....lol.....well....the point is that any child that goes around spewing things like that is going to get some negative attention at some point based on those so called beliefs....and thse beliefs were mostly propagated by his parents if by anyone.....this is all assuming that tis isn't some anti-american propaganda that seems to permeate the entire internet culture nowadays.....

These parents were questioned...they were not interrogated, tortured, etc....(this is still assuing that it is true).....this is not a breach of civil rights....and no.....you do not need a warrent to question someone......esp if they comply readily......this is a load of crap and should be dealt with as such

*shits on thread*

Well, for starters, grunt, how about some common sense from the teacher?
If one of the 11-year-old students expresses opinions like that, wouldn't it be best to discuss them in class? Isn't providing non-biased information and encouraging discussion the duty of a teacher? You simply do not involve the police in a matter like this. Personally, I might have discussed it with the parents, but simply talking it over with the kid should have been enough.
That was a gross overreaction from the officials and neglect from the teacher. These people didn't fulfill their duties. Another system failure.

the kid has no right to say the things he said in the constitution and the bill of rights there is no mention of child rights the only the adults of our beloved country have any rights knowing that the child heard these statements somewhere else is the disturbing part We live in a country that grants us more freedoms then any other nation in the world and all we can do about it is bitch cause its not good enough for the small minded individuals outthere it is easy to point the finger at bush but easier to point it at the childs parents the school and the police did the right thing by the statement I am in a military family and from military family and to know that ther are people taking advantage of the freedoms my family has helped to protect for the past 100 years is a disappointment......

Your statement might have been easier to read if you didn't save all of your punctuation until the end of your sentence/paragraph.

But, now that I have read what you have to say, WTF?!? What is the point of a nation *granting* free speech if people are not allowed to use it? The child was exercising her right to use the freedoms that people have fought for. I think that *YOU* and anyone who claims that dissent should not be tolerated are a *disgrace* their sacrifice. Being obliged to agree with one's nation is not freedom.

Finally, minors do have certain rights under the Consitiution, although to a limited degree some of those rights are under parental control (while others like right to fair trial are fully there so where the hell you get that minors have not rights is beyond me.)

First of all, I do think it was a little overkill to call in the police to investigate this, but as someone pointed out earlier, the parents could have refused to speak with the police, and I don't think a judge would issue a warrant for this.
But for those of you who don't think this matter should have been investigated at all (even by the school), let's examine the situation. On a Veteran's Day, the kid said he wished all Americans and American soldiers were dead. Is this any different than saying, on MLK day, "I wish all blacks wre dead."? Or how about "I wish all Jews and Muslims were dead."? I doubt there is anyone that wouldn't want to question the parents in at least some fashion after statements like that. The kid's parents might be teaching him hate group stuff or something. How then is this statement any less inflammatory just because it is directed against Americans? Just some food for thought. :cool:

Just some food for thought. :cool:


Food for thought in a thread of starving Somalians who refuse any food.

http://www.fair.org/media-woes/media-woes.html

For starters

Interesting. I could have sworn I asked for studies, not unsupported assertions labeled as "analysis."

We need to crack down on these thoughtcrimes and keep our country doubleplusgood. :rolleyes:
These policies were instituted under Bill Clinton you do realize. This sort of thing was not the result of the Patriot Act or George Bush, but the paranoia that was caused by the Columbine school shootings.

Maybe they don't deal with it the same, but Europe's not big on free speech either. There's no such thing as legally defined 'hate speech' in the US.

Maybe that isn't such a good thing...
It is if you value free speech.

It is if you value free speech.

Come back to Kramerica

the kid has no right to say the things he said in the constitution and the bill of rights there is no mention of child rights....
Please buy a keyboard with a shift key and learn how to use the period.

Maybe this kid just says random stuff?

But yeah, considering what he said, they were right to question his parents. You can't live in a country where the police ignore what could be an illegal act.
Illegal act??? What exactly are you talking about?

not really--Ive been expressing anti authority views since I was 5 years old

Yeah but blurting out in a classroom full of 5th graders that you wish all the marines were dead, it could mean they are plotting something. But probably not, this seems to be over-reaction.

Come back to Kramerica
I appreciate feeling wanted, but I really don't belong there.

maybe they can quietly watch them for a bit to see if theres something there but to actually confront them over something as vague as this is overkill

maybe they did, the news isn't the whole story, the way it was written makes me think that a background check or some observation turned something up so the police decided to check it out

And final..the Supreme Court ruled awhile ago before Bush was president that freedom of speech does not extend to schools. Thats just how it goes. Cant sue the school or the police for doing their jobs. Oh..and if you threaten the President of the US(no matter who it is) it IS a crime. And the Secret Service WILL investigate the claim. They get thousands of 'em a year and run down each one to be on the safe side. Normally it takes them about 5-10 minutes for a case..someone joking and so on so forth...but freedom of speech in the US has its limitations
freedom of speech does too extend to schools--altho they may seem like it more and more- schools are not jails

freedom of speech does too extend to schools--altho they may seem like it more and more- schools are not jails

No it doesnt..thats why schools have the ability to censor what goes into school newspapers, and what a persons shirt says, or the kind of clothes someone can wear(especially true in some neighborhoods of urban schools.). Again the Supreme Court ruled there is a limit to not only the freedom of speech in schools but freedom of religion in schools..

Originally Posted by Der Lieben
First of all, I do think it was a little overkill to call in the police to investigate this, but as someone pointed out earlier, the parents could have refused to speak with the police, and I don't think a judge would issue a warrant for this.
But for those of you who don't think this matter should have been investigated at all (even by the school), let's examine the situation. On a Veteran's Day, the kid said he wished all Americans and American soldiers were dead. Is this any different than saying, on MLK day, "I wish all blacks wre dead."? Or how about "I wish all Jews and Muslims were dead."? I doubt there is anyone that wouldn't want to question the parents in at least some fashion after statements like that. The kid's parents might be teaching him hate group stuff or something. How then is this statement any less inflammatory just because it is directed against Americans? Just some food for thought.
Absolutely correct. The parents were not questioned because their child was expressing anti-American views in the sense that the child dislikes our nation or disagrees with its politics, but that the child was expressing anti-American views in the same manner that a homophobe might wish for all homosexuals to die, or an anti-Semite might wish death upon all those of the Jewish faith.

I would also hasten to point out that society ignores the voices of minors at its own peril. As a minor myself, I am well aware of how extreme some of my "peers" can be, and know several people who, with some careful prodding, could do very drastic things. That is also one reason why I consider it foolish that an arbitrary age is set as the point of gaining discretion, but that is another topic.

Yeah but blurting out in a classroom full of 5th graders that you wish all the marines were dead, it could mean they are plotting something. But probably not, this seems to be over-reaction.

What I think shouldve been done was the school called the parents and had a conference first.

Illegal act??? What exactly are you talking about?

Wake up, it's 1984 - it's illegal to make controversial statements. Did you miss it in the news? :-/

Wake up, it's 1984 - it's illegal to make controversial statements. Did you miss it in the news? :-/

Oh my its 1984!No its 2004 god damnit,wake up,and stop using that stupid analogy.I swear to god everytime a government from the city level on up attempts to further regulate something everyone screams "Its 1984! Welcome to 1984" Go read that book again. Because if you think this is exactly what 1984 was describing then you need a second helping of it. :rolleyes:

No it doesnt..thats why schools have the ability to censor what goes into school newspapers, and what a persons shirt says, or the kind of clothes someone can wear(especially true in some neighborhoods of urban schools.). Again the Supreme Court ruled there is a limit to not only the freedom of speech in schools but freedom of religion in schools..

Actualy, schools are very limited in the ways that they can restrict free speach. Courts have consistantly ruled that schools cannot abridge student speach unless it is obscene or disruptive. While students can be suspended by wearing a pornographic t-shirt they can't be barred from wearing trench-coats or black armbands. While Students can be disciplined by jabbering during a lecture, they cannot be disciplined for conversing during lunch.

This religion thing is rather touchy. Schools can't sponser any religion and cannot allow public prayer at school sponsered functions. However, schools cannot prevent anyone from exercising their religion either. Student can pray privatly and students whose religion require prayer at certain time during the day must be accomidated. In the most extreme of cases, courts have rulled that Sikh students cannot be prohibited from carring kirpans, cerimonial daggers, to school.