NationStates Jolt Archive

An 18-month ethnographic study at 11 schools in North Carolina found that black students basically have the same attitudes about achievement as their white counterparts do: they want to succeed, understand that doing well in school has important consequences in later life and feel better about themselves the better they do.

The myth that Blacks make fun of other Blacks who achieve as "acting White" may actually originate with teachers and administrators who have a built in prejudice that Blacks don't value education.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12ACTING.html?ex=1260594000&en=0adbddd8d0708853&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo

well your talking about north carolina...

And quoting the NYT :rolleyes:

Maybe they were rich black kids? Or smart ones?

And quoting the NYT :rolleyes:

The New York Times, the paper of record for the United States, is as valid a newspaper source as you will find. I simply do not understand people who say, "oh, well it’s the New York Times," as if that is some kind of argument. Yes, the paper has gone through some embarrassing incidents recently. But, it is staffed with professional writers, researcher, fact checkers, editors, and lawyers who answer for what they print. Their stories go through far more scrutiny than what you will find on any internet web site, which people are so fond of quoting.

I argue with, rail against, and get angry at the Times frequently. On more than one occassion I have cancelled my subsription because of their editorial policies. However, there is no finer paper in the United States.

If you have a specific beef with the validity of this or any other story, then make your claim and support it. But don't just roll your eyes at one of the oldest, most prestigious papers in the nation and indeed the world and think you have made a meaningful statement.

*Cough* Why exactly didn't they do an 18 month ethnographic survey in 11 schools in DC, CH, NYC, and LA?

The New York Times, the paper of record for the United States, is as valid a newspaper source as you will find. I simply do not understand people who say, "oh, well it’s the New York Times," as if that is some kind of argument. Yes, the paper has gone through some embarrassing incidents recently. But, it is staffed with professional writers, researcher, fact checkers, editors, and lawyers who answer for what they print. Their stories go through far more scrutiny than what you will find on any internet web site, which people are so fond of quoting.

I argue with, rail against, and get angry at the Times frequently. On more than one occassion I have cancelled my subsription because of their editorial policies. However, there is no finer paper in the United States.

If you have a specific beef with the validity of this or any other story, then make your claim and support it. But don't just roll your eyes at one of the oldest, most prestigious papers in the nation and indeed the world and think you have made a meaningful statement.

The Wall Street Journal is the finest paper in the Nation. Case closed.

The New York Times, the paper of record for the United States, is as valid a newspaper source as you will find. I simply do not understand people who say, "oh, well it’s the New York Times," as if that is some kind of argument. Yes, the paper has gone through some embarrassing incidents recently. But, it is staffed with professional writers, researcher, fact checkers, editors, and lawyers who answer for what they print. Their stories go through far more scrutiny than what you will find on any internet web site, which people are so fond of quoting.

I argue with, rail against, and get angry at the Times frequently. On more than one occassion I have cancelled my subsription because of their editorial policies. However, there is no finer paper in the United States.

If you have a specific beef with the validity of this or any other story, then make your claim and support it. But don't just roll your eyes at one of the oldest, most prestigious papers in the nation and indeed the world and think you have made a meaningful statement.


The New York Times has consistently misrepresnted, misreported and misinformed since the turn of the century. (Starting with it's ridiculous WWI coverage).

Also remember that time it covered up the famine in the Ukraine so it could point out the wonders of stalinsm.

Every month the manhattan institute makes a list of its misquotes and faulty reports in respect of New York City matters. (Mostly done with an obvious bias towards certain political causes).

I personally know three people who have been misquoted by said "rag". Moreover, I only know three people who have ever been quoted. Not a very good average, whether you think it is the paper of record or not.

In any event, the most respected paper in the US for hews reporting would either be the Wall Street Journal, or the Washington Post. The Times is just a tabloid for the Hoi-polloi printed on broadsheet paper.

*Cough* Why exactly didn't they do an 18 month ethnographic survey in 11 schools in DC, CH, NYC, and LA?

Take a lozenge and read the article. The researchers are from Duke and U.N.C. Besides, what makes North Carolina any less valid than the places you mentioned?

Take a lozenge and read the article. The researchers are from Duke and U.N.C. Besides, what makes North Carolina any less valid than the places you mentioned?
If the study was centered on big inner city schools I suspect the conclusions their study came to would be quite the opposite.

The New York Times has consistently misrepresnted, misreported and misinformed since the turn of the century. (Starting with it's ridiculous WWI coverage).

Also remember that time it covered up the famine in the Ukraine so it could point out the wonders of stalinsm.

Every month the manhattan institute makes a list of its misquotes and faulty reports in respect of New York City matters. (Mostly done with an obvious bias towards certain political causes).

I personally know three people who have been misquoted by said "rag". Moreover, I only know three people who have ever been quoted. Not a very good average, whether you think it is the paper of record or not.

In any event, the most respected paper in the US for hews reporting would either be the Wall Street Journal, or the Washington Post. The Times is just a tabloid for the Hoi-polloi printed on broadsheet paper.

You must be much older than I am if you recall the Times coverage of World War I and the Ukrainian famine. However, without defending practices that are over 85 years old, I will say that most mainstream American papers jumped on the bandwagon to support American involvement in the Great War, once war was declared, just as the Times and others did in the most recent war against Iraq (unpardonably in my view). Remember, Eugene Debs had to run for president from a jail cell just because he opposed that war.

As to the famine in Ukraine, no newspaper reported that story for the simple reason that no one knew about it. Stalin kept all information about the famine under tight wrap. I have been to Ukraine and stayed with a family whose grandparents died in the famine. Even they didn't know the extent of the tragedy until years later.

I'm glad the Manhattan Institute, a conservative foundation started by William Casey, Ronald Reagan's CIA director, and funded by other right-wing contributors including Richard Mellon Scaife (famous for spending hundreds of millions to bring down Bill Clinton), keeps an eye on the Times. All papers should have to answer to the public. And it is no wonder that the Manhattan Institute would find fault with the Times. It would be a story if that very conservative group didn't.

I myself have been frequently angered at the Times conservative slant in foreign affairs and their shameful reporting and participation in the mudslinging attacks on President Clinton.

But, for you to disregard the Times as a tabloid is just partisan silliness. Frankly, I doubt you have ever read the paper with any regularity. If you did you would find columnists from every political stripe from Maureen Dowd, Paul Krugman, and Bob Herbert on the left, to Thomas Friedman and Nicholas Kristof in the center-left, to William Safire and David Brooks on the right.

The study is obsurd.
The problem in the black community has never been among the Rural children.
The "strereo type"--like most black problems is an Urban issue.

DO a study in New York city--the results will be different.
DO a study in Detroit, MI
Atlanta,GA
Memphis, TN
Second the study should be on several tiers of economic status.
Of course the black children in a Buckhead school are eager to achieve--
What about the children of SwAts school.

Of course black children in Grosse Point MI are eager to achieve and value the Academic, what about the same age demographic in say Chatsy, or Cody highschool in the Detroit school district.

I have personally heard the phrase "Books are for white people"--In emulation of that stupid as$ movie.
No NC, can not even be remotely considered indicative of the Urban Black mentality.
It cant even be responsibly called a snapshot of rural American Blacks.
EDIT: While I am a-Washington Post Man myself, I agree that the Times being the printer of this story should not slant ones opinion either way--while the Times has its detractors--it is still a reputable newspaper for the most part. With just about as much good as bad.

I have personally heard the phrase "Books are for white people

I'm not sure how one personal experience stacks up against a study of 11 public schools, but if we are offering anecdotal evidence then let me say that in 15 years of teaching high school and middle school student in schools with large and even majority Black populations, I have never heard such a comment.

You must be much older than I am if you recall the Times coverage of World War I and the Ukrainian famine. However, without defending practices that are over 85 years old, I will say that most mainstream American papers jumped on the bandwagon to support American involvement in the Great War, once war was declared, just as the Times and others did in the most recent war against Iraq (unpardonably in my view). Remember, Eugene Debs had to run for president from a jail cell just because he opposed that war.

As to the famine in Ukraine, no newspaper reported that story for the simple reason that no one knew about it. Stalin kept all information about the famine under tight wrap. I have been to Ukraine and stayed with a family whose grandparents died in the famine. Even they didn't know the extent of the tragedy until years later.

I'm glad the Manhattan Institute, a conservative foundation started by William Casey, Ronald Reagan's CIA director, and funded by other right-wing contributors including Richard Mellon Scaife (famous for spending hundreds of millions to bring down Bill Clinton), keeps an eye on the Times. All papers should have to answer to the public. And it is no wonder that the Manhattan Institute would find fault with the Times. It would be a story if that very conservative group didn't.

I myself have been frequently angered at the Times conservative slant in foreign affairs and their shameful reporting and participation in the mudslinging attacks on President Clinton.

But, for you to disregard the Times as a tabloid is just partisan silliness. Frankly, I doubt you have ever read the paper with any regularity. If you did you would find columnists from every political stripe from Maureen Dowd, Paul Krugman, and Bob Herbert on the left, to Thomas Friedman and Nicholas Kristof in the center-left, to William Safire and David Brooks on the right.

The problem with the Times WWI coverage was not that it jumped on the band wangon. Rather it would just makes stories up. That is, by no stretch of the imagination, honest reporting. As to the Ukrainian famine; yes a times reporter did know about it, and chose to ignore it in order to give plaudits to Stalin. There was quite a flap about it a while ago.

I only mentioned these things because you were intent on relying upon the Times's long and distingiushed history, when the fact remains it has been plauged with inaccuracy and baised reporting thorughout the last century.

I am also well aware of the pedigree of the Manhattan institute. Neverthless, whatever their political affiliation is, they consistently demonstrate that the times publishes unsupported untruths in order to promote pet political causes. At the same time, the NYT can be deafeningly silent about otther issues in the city.

And you are right, I don't read the times regularly, and in fact I ignore everything they say, because every story they have reported on that I have personal knowledge about, they have gotten completely wrong and sensationalized. Most particularly the Penthouse murders back in the mid 90s, where they reported a suicide in the work place as a gangland type slaying involving drugs and sex rings. It is on that basis I choose to classify that "rag" as a tabloid; not on the basis of partisanship. You will note, I do not place the Washington Post in that catagory.

I'm not sure how one personal experience stacks up against a study of 11 public schools, but if we are offering antidotal evidence then let me say that in 15 years of teaching high school and middle school student in schools with large and even majority Black populations, I have never heard such a comment.
Because you are a teacher.
Where are these predominately Black schools you have taught at?
Most importantly how am I supposed to beleive a teacher who cant spell 'anecdotal'.
You are a piss poor impostor.

As to the famine in Ukraine, no newspaper reported that story for the simple reason that no one knew about it. Stalin kept all information about the famine under tight wrap. I have been to Ukraine and stayed with a family whose grandparents died in the famine. Even they didn't know the extent of the tragedy until years later.

There's an irrefutable documented proof (in declassified British government archives) that the NYT indeed was fully aware of the extent of the famine just as it was happening (British government actually used private conversations with NYT personnel as its main source of information on that subject). So it was even worse than Holocaust denial now - at least nothing can be done about it now, while in 1932 it was still possible to pressure Soviet government (which at that time strongly depended on hired American talent in its industrialization program). Firthermore, they did not simply keep silent - they actually published articles about happy lives of Soviet collective farmers. What's even more relevant RIGHT NOW, that Stalinist reporting from the Soviet Union earned them a Pulitzer Prize and as late as THIS YEAR they opposed attempts to revoke it. In other words, they are STILL very proud of all those horrible lies that they published. As long as this situation continues, I will not recognize them as a valid source of any kind of information.

Because you are a teacher.
Where are these predominately Black schools you have taught at?
Most importantly how am I supposed to beleive a teacher who cant spell 'anecdotal'.
You are a piss poor impostor.

Ah, spelling. The bane of all teachers. Let a teacher spell one word wrong and nothing he or she says makes a difference. In my defense I offer the example of Andrew Jackson, known for frequently spelling words two or three different ways in the same sentence.

Feel fortunate that I do not judge you on your ability to spell "believe" and "can't" correctly.

And honestly, how many people do you know who would attempt to pass themselves off as a teacher who was not? Did it suddenly become such a prestigious, well respected, glamorous position in our country?

By the way if you want to know where I teach, look at the information under my name.

There's an irrefutable documented proof (in declassified British government archives) that the NYT indeed was fully aware of the extent of the famine just as it was happening (British government actually used private conversations with NYT personnel as its main source of information on that subject). So it was even worse than Holocaust denial now - at least nothing can be done about it now, while in 1932 it was still possible to pressure Soviet government (which at that time strongly depended on hired American talent in its industrialization program). Firthermore, they did not simply keep silent - they actually published articles about happy lives of Soviet collective farmers. What's even more relevant RIGHT NOW, that Stalinist reporting from the Soviet Union earned them a Pulitzer Prize and as late as THIS YEAR they opposed attempts to revoke it. In other words, they are STILL very proud of all those horrible lies that they published. As long as this situation continues, I will not recognize them as a valid source of any kind of information.


Waste of time. I just found out that Og is teacher. All teachers love the NYT, it is their paper, and can do no wrong.

Consistantly from 1970 to 2001 the droprate among balcks was a minimum--I say a minimum of 3% with a maximum of double the white dropout rate.
Now, that is not a fluke, it is not an anachronism, it is not a matter of chance.
Since I do not (science is also with me on this) believe that Whites have a Genetic disposition to excell, the flaw must be cultural.
There is clearly demonstrated in the action of the Urban Black a cultural disposition against academic achievement.
Proper language skills are not encouraged.
Proper life skills are not encouraged.
When successful Blacks address or confront these issues they are met with hostility from the Urban Black.
Years of segregation have bred a self defeating mentality into the Black culture which remains pervasive today.
Heaps of material on the subject pervade countless examinations of the divisions between Blacks and Whites.
While your sited study may be a quaint idea, it hardly and obviously does not apply to reality.
It is the type of "feel good" hand ringing tripe which dismisses the genuine problem, leaving an entire section of our country to wallow in a self defeatist mud hole.
Finally, I am insulted that you would claim to be someone who has even the remotest understanding of black culture in this country when the obvious so easily escapes you.
If you do indeed teach Black children, learn how to spell, and re-examine your easily swayed ideas that there is no real problem.
There is damned certainly one.

There's an irrefutable documented proof (in declassified British government archives) that the NYT indeed was fully aware of the extent of the famine just as it was happening (British government actually used private conversations with NYT personnel as its main source of information on that subject). So it was even worse than Holocaust denial now - at least nothing can be done about it now, while in 1932 it was still possible to pressure Soviet government (which at that time strongly depended on hired American talent in its industrialization program). Firthermore, they did not simply keep silent - they actually published articles about happy lives of Soviet collective farmers. What's even more relevant RIGHT NOW, that Stalinist reporting from the Soviet Union earned them a Pulitzer Prize and as late as THIS YEAR they opposed attempts to revoke it. In other words, they are STILL very proud of all those horrible lies that they published. As long as this situation continues, I will not recognize them as a valid source of any kind of information.

Other than a one week visit to Ukraine two years ago, my main understanding of the famine comes from Dolot's Execution by Hunger. However, nothing was mentioned about the role of the NYTimes. I would be interested in reading any material you could recommend or websites you might direct me to.

If you re-read my posts you will see I am not an uncritical supporter of the Times. However, I recognize them as one of the best newspapers in the nation.

Waste of time. I just found out that Og is teacher. All teachers love the NYT, it is their paper, and can do no wrong.

You want to make your argument black and white, right and wrong? "All teachers" and "can do no wrong." Did you just skip over my criticisms of the Times?

Consistantly from 1970 to 2001 the droprate among balcks was a minimum--I say a minimum of 3% with a maximum of double the white dropout rate.
Now, that is not a fluke, it is not an anachronism, it is not a matter of chance.
Since I do not (science is also with me on this) believe that Whites have a Genetic disposition to excell, the flaw must be cultural.

If you do indeed teach Black children, learn how to spell


Any tips you can offer will be appreciated.

Ah, spelling. The bane of all teachers. Let a teacher spell one word wrong and nothing he or she says makes a difference. In my defense I offer the example of Andrew Jackson, known for frequently spelling words two or three different ways in the same sentence.

Feel fortunate that I do not judge you on your ability to spell "believe" and "can't" correctly.

And honestly, how many people do you know who would attempt to pass themselves off as a teacher who was not? Did it suddenly become such a prestigious, well respected, glamorous position in our country?

By the way if you want to know where I teach, look at the information under my name.
Ma'am, I never claimed to be a teacher.
Your JOB-is proper spelling.
Your JOB-is properly communicating your thoughts to others.
I am truck driver with a 9th grade education.
You should be embarrassed that not only can I judge you on your spelling, your obvious deception to merely up hold your flawed and very much unjustified opinion.
You should be embarrassed that I am more proficient with the language then you are.

What school district ma'am is it that is predominately Black?
Or cant you even name the district.
Or does the state of Florida now only have one district?

What school district ma'am is it that is predominately Black?
Or cant you even name the district.
Or does the state of Florida now only have one district?

Take a guess. Where do you think "Mousetown" is in Florida?

You want to make your argument black and white? "All teachers" and "can do no wrong." Did you just skip over my my criticisms of the Times?

You said, "there is no finer paper in the United States." I maintain this is your opinion becuase you are a teacher. If you were from another profession, you would realize how truly flawed the NYT is.

It's a professional bias. The Times tends to support the prevailing weltanschauung of the teaching profession. Thus in the area you are most knowledgeble about it tends to confirm what you already know. Naturally you therefore assume that it must be the product of fine journalism.

I on the other hand am not a teacher, and on those infrequent ocassions where I am saddled with the Times as the only option, I am often left wondering what in the hell they are talking about.

Admittedly it's reporting is not as poor as Time magazine - which frankly beggars belief. Notwithstanding, it can in no event be described as a fine Newspaper. I am reasonably confident, for example, that if the authors of the study described in the current article in question were contacted, they would give a very different description of the conclusions they arrived at. I am also reasonably sure they would concede the inherent limitations in geographical sample the study used.

Edit: I actually just read the article now:

1. My eyes hurt from looking at the times and it's garbage.

2. It's an ethongraphic study. Those are not real studies in any sense of the word. They are in fact just BS, based upon a pastiche of non-random interviews and therefore discreditable ab initio. Yet again the Times does it's usual job, reporting something as gospel, when it damn well knows the underlying study is worthless, because the theme of the story serves a larger point. One day there is going to be a reckoning for those people.

I see that you still are incapable of addressing either issue of importance.
While catching me with a double L is quite a coup.
what a frenzy of typing it must have been for the word "antidotal"--to exit your wise hands.

However you have my permission to continue on this, the only part on an arguement you could hope to win.
As again-you claim to be a teacher,
who is incapable of direct answers.

http://unicast.org/forums/topic.php?topic_id=10049

A study of Urban Black areas--what do they have in common?
Poverty.
Crime.
Illiteracy.

Luckily that little study you posted says the Illitracy rate has nothing to do with Black culture. I am certain the NAACP will be quite relieved.

Adult Literacy:
White:14-16% at Level 1 Black:38-43% at level 1

As of 1992.
The 2003 stasitics will be available until 2005--so any numbers to the contrary are speculative.
http://nces.ed.gov/naal/faq/faqresults.asp#2

Well with numbers like that I can see, how that myth about about acting white is just completely off base.

"Ogbu points to the fact that the other minorities, such as Asian immigrants, who are also raised in households with different beliefs and values, achieve high levels of academic success. He writes that a reason why there is a disproportionate gap between the literacy levels of our dominant ethnicity and black Americans may be because of the way the two cultures view schooling. "Blacks have had to fight for almost every increase in their access to public school." (Ogbu 141) Blacks' history of schooling has placed an us-versus-them attitude among many black social circles. (Ogbu 140) This idea coupled with the theory that blacks do not have a trust for some of the white educators in the city, cause many black adults to become very skeptical. (144) This skepticism is seen by the children of these parents and causes them to become disenchanted with the whole education system. Often when this happens a cycle of discontent is created and a large mental obstruction is placed in the way of learning. "
http://eserver.org/courses/spring97/76100o/contributions/hayes/

"The Civil Rights Project at Howard University (March, 2001), and Education Week (Oct 30, 2002), Black students are at risk in most inner-city schools. Research shows that more than 480,000 school age minority children have a working vocabulary of less than 50 words. "
http://www.ncsc.info/newsletter/nov2003/educationalchoice.htm

No problem at all.

"The average Black inner city teenager experiences his entire school years within an 18-mile radius, where he may live in as many as five different residences and attend as many as three different schools. Within that 18-mile radius, more than half of all minority at-risk students never graduate. In Detroit, 69% never experience graduation."

I'm not sure how one personal experience stacks up against a study of 11 public schools, but if we are offering antidotal evidence then let me say that in 15 years of teaching high school and middle school student in schools with large and even majority Black populations, I have never heard such a comment.

Eleven public schools is nothing compared to an entire nation, its a sample a tiny tiny bit of how many schools actually exist in the US, and therefore can't be taken as hard solid fact, and placed as the truth for everyone everywhere, the fact of the matter is, that eleven public schools isn't even big enough to develop a proper confidence level in a true statistical survey.

Eleven public schools is nothing compared to an entire nation, its a sample a tiny tiny bit of how many schools actually exist in the US, and therefore can't be taken as hard solid fact, and placed as the truth for everyone everywhere, the fact of the matter is, that eleven public schools isn't even big enough to develop a proper confidence level in a true statistical survey.

As I noted above, if you read carefully, it's not even a real study. It's an ethanographic survey.

Typical times dissimulation. Reporting specualtion as fact.

Bedou, is it possible I offended you in some previous thread? I am having a difficult time understanding your hostility. Surely, you don't think one misspelled word warrants the personal insults and attacks you have offered? I'll clue you in to a secret about teachers - we make no claims to being perfect. In fact teaching is about learning from mistakes. No mistakes, no learning.

So, if I promise to write "anecdotal" a hundred times do you think you can cut me some slack?

By the way, Lacadaemon, I rarely read about education in the paper and could not tell you what the Times position is on education issues. My being a teacher has nothing to do with my respect for their journalism.

Also, the article you read was not hard news, but rather a commentary. There is a different standard when a columnist is attempting to influence or sway than there is for a journalist reporting a story. The study cited made no claims to be anything other than what it is - an examination of attitudes toward education by young Blacks in 11 North Carolina schools. Nor do I make any claims as to the veracity of the study. I offered it as a starting point for discussion.

I do know that I personally have not witnessed this trend of Blacks denigrating other Blacks for being successful in school - at least to no greater degree than found in all students who tend to scowl at the kid who gets an "A" on a test.

My hostility was a reaction-not an action.
As well, you failed to address anything that was of real relevance.
You held fast to the spelling issue because you knew you had no valid arguement EDITED.
While I dont believe that the Times is in and of its self wrong.
It most certainly does not lend immediate credibility to something merely by printing it.
So while I am happy to cut you slack on spelling--since it is not my profession to catch such things.
EDITED.
I apologize.
Personal attacks were certainly not called for.
Since I dont know you, dont take them to heart.
Some other time.
Good Night.

My hostility was a reaction-not an action.
As well, you failed to address anything that was of real relevance.
You held fast to the spelling issue because you knew you had no valid arguement EDITED.
While I dont believe that the Times is in and of its self wrong.
It most certainly does not lend immediate credibility to something merely by printing it.
So while I am happy to cut you slack on spelling--since it is not my profession to catch such things.
EDITED.
I apologize.
Personal attacks were certainly not called for.
Since I dont know you, dont take them to heart.
Some other time.
Good Night.

Fair enough.

Be well.

I can tell just how racist we are by this:

The entire first page is Ogiek trying to defend his post and the validity of his post, and the people arguing with him provided absolutely no logical reasons to back up their arguments. It is that hard to believe that blacks actually want to succeed as well or have movies and the news so brainwashed that we actually believe that most inner city blacks are only concerned with gang banging?

http://unicast.org/forums/topic.php?topic_id=10049

A study of Urban Black areas--what do they have in common?
Poverty.
Crime.
Illiteracy.

Luckily that little study you posted says the Illitracy rate has nothing to do with Black culture. I am certain the NAACP will be quite relieved.

How do your views collide with those of the article? The article says that blacks are no more driven to success than white people.

If I am right, then you are saying that there is a problem with inner city culture that breeds a resentment of success. Now do either of those ideas clash, or do you believe that Black culture is responsible for that?