NationStates Jolt Archive

Once again the latest tests and surveys show Americans lagging behind the world in math skills. How much math do we actually need and is there really an argument to support universal algebra education?

Two points of view from a NYTimes article:

"In all but the most arcane specialties (like teaching math), the need for math has atrophied. Electronic scales can price 4.15 pounds of chicken at $3.79 a pound faster than any butcher. Artillerymen in Iraq don't use slide rules as their counterparts on Iwo Jima did. Cars announce how many miles each gallon gets. Some restaurant bills calculate suggested tips of 15, 18 or 20 percent. Architects and accountants now have spreadsheets for everything from wind stress to foreign tax shelters. The new math is plug-and-play."

or

"...kids don't study poetry just because they're going to grow up to be poets. It's about a habit of mind. Your mind doesn't think abstractly unless it's asked to - and it needs to be asked to from a relatively young age. The rigor and logic that goes into math is a good way for your brain to be trained."

The Last Time You Used Algebra Was...
By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

Published: December 12, 2004

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/weekinreview/12mcne.html?ex=1260594000&en=cc1d9f3c15faedbd&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo

Well, I don't know about most of you, but I personally find calculus fascinating. Calculus, in combination with physics, explains so much about the world and has a profound impact on the mind. You realize that most things are exactly predicable, its just a matter of applying the formulae and measuring correctly. Having the world be a predicable place has a profound impact on how you view things.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Who exactly do you think is making these devices that do all of our math for us? Math is becoming increasingly important because of this technology that we rely on, and it was pretty important to begin with.

Well, I don't know about most of you, but I personally find calculus fascinating.
This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Who exactly do you think is making these devices that do all of our math for us? Math is becoming increasingly important because of this technology that we rely on, and it was pretty important to begin with.

Certainly there are people, like you two, Imnsvale and EmoBuddy, who enjoy math and have an aptitude for it. But, does that mean everyone should study it? Maybe. Maybe not.

Yes, these math machines require designing, building, and maintainence. But, it will not take that many people to program and operate our math-labor saving devices. I can be as much of a Luddite as the next person when it come to techology, but are you really ready to give up your calculator for a sliderule?

I find the study of obscure and archane history to be fascinating, but I don't expect everyone to share that same passion. I'm not ready to throw out the study of math for everyone, but I think it is valid to ask what we expect students to learn and why we expect them to learn it.

When's the last time that you used history? O.K., you can argue things with it. Congratulations. The world could use a bit less arguing.

I use algebra all the time because I understand it. It gives me a competitive edge in many strategic games. Certainly, I could get somebody else to do it for me, but somebody needs to know it. And I have to trust that person. Typically, the people who don't want to learn algebra are the same people who don't trust computers.

Also, all of your examples are just arithmetic.

Ogiek: Hell, I'd even give up a slide rule for an abacus (and I sort of know how to use both :P). But isn't that like saying "Hey, we only need a few people who know how to write!"? It's a valuable skill. Plus, you never know if you'll like or have an aptitude for something until you try. I took AP Art History (on a whim) and loved it. There's no reason we should allow people to close doors on themselves until they've at least tried it.

The point of public education isn't to teach you what you want to learn for an uncertain future, but to prepare you for the adult world.

If you don't need Algebra, then don't bother taking it in college. It's as simple as that.

Yes, these math machines require designing, building, and maintainence. But, it will not take that many people to program and operate our math-labor saving devices. I can be as much of a Luddite as the next person when it come to techology, but are you really ready to give up your calculator for a sliderule?
Being proficient at arithmetic gives you a lot more of an advantage than you might think. It saves a lot of time while doing algebra. 8) Also, in high school, I did about half of my chemistry exams without a calculator because I just didn't know that I had a test that day. I did long division and computed logarithms by hand. Sometimes, you just don't have a calculator, but you still need to know.

People need to learn Math for two reasons. In the first place, our society needs an increasing number of people skilled in technical fields - people to maintain and operate the technology we're developing - and these people need to know Math at least at the level of Algebra (and often Calculus). Learning a mathematical and scientific way of thinking opens up a large range of high paying and desirable jobs, and we need people to fill them.

More importantly, in my opinion, a well rounded person should have a reasonable understanding of the basics of all the academic disciplines. People should know a litle about art and literature, and they should know some history and social sciences, and they should know something about math and science too.

Math especially is useful, because the sort of abstract thinking Math forces you to practice can be applied usefully to almost any field.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

When's the last time that you used history? O.K., you can argue things with it. Congratulations. The world could use a bit less arguing.

I use algebra all the time because I understand it. It gives me a competitive edge in many strategic games. Certainly, I could get somebody else to do it for me, but somebody needs to know it. And I have to trust that person. Typically, the people who don't want to learn algebra are the same people who don't trust computers.

Also, all of your examples are just arithmetic.

The last time I used history was on November 2, when I went into the voting booth. How many wars has the U.S. blundered into because our people and leaders know so little about the rest of the world and its history? However, the importance of history is a topic for another thread.

Far be it from me to argue math with someone named Pythagoras, but since taking high school algebra over 25 years ago I have never once used it (except this year when I had to re-learn it to help my son with his Algebra class).

Imnsvall mentioned he took AP Art on a lark. How did we reach the decision that all American students must have algebra and 3-4 years of math in high school? Why not 3-4 years of art or drama or auto mechanics? Certainly larger numbers of people are more likely to use public speaking skills or automotive ability far more than they will need to "factor the Greatest Common Factor out of a polynomial."

I think we just blindly say, “this is what kids need, because this is what we have always taught.” I'm not anti-math and I'm receptive to the idea of learning for learnings sake. I just am not convinced that everyone needs the same level of math.

You know those people who are never quite sure how long it'll take for their car to slow down, so they get way up close and slam on their brakes? If we all had a decently fast internal integration unit built in, you could tell they were just being assholes instead of idiots.

Yes.

Calculus, probably not (though I intend to learn it on my own since I don't have time to do so as a lagging English major), but algebra, definately.

LOL, O.K., I'm a bit biased. I did complete a math major while I was earning my degree in Electrical Engineering, and if I decide to go to graduate school, then it will be in mathematics.

I agree with you, but I don't agree with your points. I don't think that we should force anybody to learn anything. People will be responsible for what they need to know.

I think we just blindly say, “this is what kids need, because this is what we have always taught.” I'm not anti-math and I'm receptive to the idea of learning for learnings sake. I just am not convinced that everyone needs the same level of math.

The reason we need to learn Math isn't because we'll use it directly anymore than we directly use knowledge of, say, Shakespeare's plays. The reason to learn math, is because in the process you learn a way of thinking that is useful in a much broader context. Being able to quote a monologue from Macbeth has been of almost no practical use to me, but I would say that that knowledge nonetheless has a great deal of value. I think the value of learning Math is similar.

Besides, as someone already pointed out, we want to expose our children to it to give them a chance and see if its something they want to do.

Hmph.

No matter how much you teach an individual, it won't change how smart they are. I could know everything in the world, but if I don't understand what I'm doing, or if I lack deductive and inductive reasoning, common sense, an ability to derive and itemize information --- hell, if I lack simple street smarts, I'm nothing... And that's that.

So, despite the fact that I love math and detest the lethargy that technological advancements have wrought on mankind, I still respect and encourage people who don't like or don't care about math. The same goes for poetry, or any other thing I take interest in [any form of acedemic knowledge].

Knowledge isn't power. A lust for knowledge isn't even power.

But the ability to "figure things out" is.

The reason we need to learn Math isn't because we'll use it directly anymore than we directly use knowledge of, say, Shakespeare's plays. The reason to learn math, is because in the process you learn a way of thinking that is useful in a much broader context. Being able to quote a monologue from Macbeth has been of almost no practical use to me, but I would say that that knowledge nonetheless has a great deal of value. I think the value of learning Math is similar.

Besides, as someone already pointed out, we want to expose our children to it to give them a chance and see if its something they want to do.

As a believer in learning being its own reward that is the argument that most resonates with me. However, I have found too much of what passes for teaching is nothing more than following the path of least resistance.

Many of us took Biology, Chemistry, and Physics - in that order - in high school. Why did we take it in that order? Because one builds on the other? No. Because over a century ago the course catalogue was arranged in alphabetical order. Yet, we continue to follow that pattern without asking if it would be more helpful to have an understanding of chemistry before tackling biology.

I believe much of the same kind of thinking applies in math curriculums around the nation. I have visited schools in England, Ireland, Scotland, Ukraine, and Japan, and am constantly amazed that the United State continues to be one of the only countries that looks at applied mathematics as a subject for slow learners - for dummies. We teach abstract concepts to our most talented students, but ignore things like balancing a checking account, figuring compound interest on a 30 year mortgage, or determining how many square feet of carpet it takes to furnish a house. For many schools such applied math is only for the most challenged kids, if it is taught at all.

LOL, O.K., I'm a bit biased. I did complete a math major while I was earning my degree in Electrical Engineering, and if I decide to go to graduate school, then it will be in mathematics.

I agree with you, but I don't agree with your points. I don't think that we should force anybody to learn anything. People will be responsible for what they need to know.

I agree with you completely.

By the way, I want to major in Analytical Mathematics, but I've been scared into taking a "real" major so I'm 'needed' in the real world. If I major in engineering, will I be able to take all the courses of Analytical Mathematics, or will I need to double major?

Many of us took Biology, Chemistry, and Physics - in that order - in high school. Why did we take it in that order? Because one builds on the other? No. Because over a century ago the course catalogue was arranged in alphabetical order. Yet, we continue to follow that pattern without asking if it would be more helpful to have an understanding of chemistry before tackling biology.

I believe much of the same kind of thinking applies in math curriculums around the nation. I have visited schools in England, Ireland, Scotland, Ukraine, and Japan, and am constantly amazed that the United State continues to be one of the only countries that looks at applied mathematics as a subject for slow learners - for dummies. We teach abstract concepts to our most talented students, but ignore things like balancing a checking account, figuring compound interest on a 30 year mortgage, or determining how many square feet of carpet it takes to furnish a house. For many schools such applied math is only for the most challenged kids, if it is taught at all.

I have to agree with you, especially about how we order the sciences. To really understand Biology well, you need to know a decent amount of Chemistry, and to understand Chemistry well, you really ought to know Quantum Mechanics and Thermodynamics. Of course to understand those properly you really need to know linear algebra, calculus, and a good helping of combinatorics. This causes a problem because of course it takes years to learn that much relatively advanced math.
So instead they teach things in reverse, possibly based on the idea that by starting with the Biology you're starting as far away from Math on the chain as you can...

As far as the math goes, I think people probably would benefit from more applied math, because it's not necessarily simpler or easier, and putting problems in terms of things you run into regularly gets you used to the idea of figuring things out for yourself, which might be the most important habit you can learn from Math.

Schools should concentrate more on math and science, and less on the touchy feely stuff. Math and science have practical applications outside the realm of education, whereas a great deal of other babble, i.e., "great" literature does not.

A knowledge of Shakespere never built a bridge or imporved crop yields. And I bet that Edison fellow wasn't thinking "Hmmm it's a good job I studied all that social science, because now I can invent the lightbulb."

I do think schools should teach more economics. But it should be taught by real economists, not professional teachers.

All I got to say is that I don’t think math is stressed enough

Abstract thinking and the thought processes that follow are absolutely essential in life … even outside of math situations

OK, a practical situation:

I've been in a car wreck, it wasn't my fault. My medical bills are $5,000.00 and the cost to fix my car is $4,000. I also missed 2 weeks of work with wages of $375.00/week. The other guy says the wreck was my fault and his insurance company will only offer to pay me $10,000.00 for my damages. I still hurt today and the doctor says the pain in my back may never go away. I hire a lawyer who charges a fee of 25% (cheap) of the total he can get plus expenses. It costs him $200.00 to get all the police reports, medical records, bills, etc. and the insurance company ups its offer on his demand to $11,500.00 he says file suit and prove my case. His fee goes up to 33.33% if we actually sue and the expenses go to $3,000.00 by the time we take the deposition of the eye-witnesses to the wreck and pay my doctor to testify about my injuries. Meanwhile, my insurance company has paid my medical bills, but demands they get paid back from the person who was at fault in the accident, but they will accept $0.75 on the dollar for what they have paid out, but 1/3 of the money I don't have to pay back also goes to my lawyer as an attorney fee since he has "recovered" that much money for me as well. How much money do I have to get from the jury to put the same amount in my pocket as I will get if I just accept the $11,500.00 settlement offer or the $10,000.00 offer I got to begin with? How do I figure that, oh, yeah, wait, I need to know ALGEBRA!!!

It's more useful than you think.

And don't go blasting lawyers, that is not the point of the thread or the post, the point is to show one way in which Algebra has a practical, everyday, application. There are others, this is just one I've dealt with.

"I'll have you know that I use algebra nearly every day of my life!"

"What do you do?"

"I'm an algebra teacher."

-some sitcom.

OK, a practical situation:

I've been in a car wreck, it wasn't my fault. My medical bills are $5,000.00 and the cost to fix my car is $4,000. I also missed 2 weeks of work with wages of $375.00/week. The other guy says the wreck was my fault and his insurance company will only offer to pay me $10,000.00 for my damages. I still hurt today and the doctor says the pain in my back may never go away. I hire a lawyer who charges a fee of 25% (cheap) of the total he can get plus expenses. It costs him $200.00 to get all the police reports, medical records, bills, etc. and the insurance company ups its offer on his demand to $11,500.00 he says file suit and prove my case. His fee goes up to 33.33% if we actually sue and the expenses go to $3,000.00 by the time we take the deposition of the eye-witnesses to the wreck and pay my doctor to testify about my injuries. Meanwhile, my insurance company has paid my medical bills, but demands they get paid back from the person who was at fault in the accident, but they will accept $0.75 on the dollar for what they have paid out, but 1/3 of the money I don't have to pay back also goes to my lawyer as an attorney fee since he has "recovered" that much money for me as well. How much money do I have to get from the jury to put the same amount in my pocket as I will get if I just accept the $11,500.00 settlement offer or the $10,000.00 offer I got to begin with? How do I figure that, oh, yeah, wait, I need to know ALGEBRA!!!

It's more useful than you think.

And don't go blasting lawyers, that is not the point of the thread or the post, the point is to show one way in which Algebra has a practical, everyday, application. There are others, this is just one I've dealt with.

"I hire a lawyer who charges a fee of 25%"

I am paying my lawyer to give me that answer.

Hey, just being a smart ass. I know algebra and mathematics have many uses for fun and profit. I just would like to know how we decided it is more important than music, art, drama, woodworking, electrical engineering, auto mechanics, computer science, and a whole range of subjects that are not required or emphasized to the same degree as are the mathematical sciences.

Is advanced mathmaticsuseful in everyday life? I think this link will answer the question.

http://faculty.uml.edu/mstick/92.122/material/Mgt_Calculus_and_module_topics.pdf

Stores use calculus to dtermine how much of an item they should stock in order to maximuze profit. Manyone interested in business management sould have a firm grasp of math.

The argument that calculators will do the job for you doesn't stand up to the reality. If you don't usderstand algebra and calculus you won't know what all of the functions on the calculator are far in the first place.
The point of calculators is to do hard number crunching in a short amount of time. In many cases, I can do the math in my head faster than I can put it into a calculator, but when working with logs, roots, and very volumious numbers, they are very useful.

I recomend that all persons ask themselves this question, If a phycopathic killer pointed a gun to your head and demanded that you win you continued existance by solving for x when f(x) = x^2 + 6x +3 and y = 163, would you survive the encounter?

"I hire a lawyer who charges a fee of 25%"

I am paying my lawyer to give me that answer.

Hey, just being a smart ass. I know algebra and mathematics have many uses for fun and profit. I just would like to know how we decided it is more important than music, art, drama, woodworking, electrical engineering, auto mechanics, computer science, and a whole range of subjects that are not required or emphasized to the same degree as are the mathematical sciences.

1. And so your lawyer has to know algebra, you don't want to get ripped off or you want to make sure your lawyer knows what he talking about, you need Algebra to double check his numbers.

2. I'm not willing to say it is more important that ALL the things you list, but it does teach logic and rational thought and is a building block upon which many things can branch from - such as mechanical drawing/drafting/architecture/carpentry/computer science/engineering/physics/chemistry - The list goes on and on.

It may not be "more" important than the stuff in your list, but it is just AS important as they are if not more.

Is advanced mathmaticsuseful in everyday life? I think this link will answer the question.

http://faculty.uml.edu/mstick/92.122/material/Mgt_Calculus_and_module_topics.pdf

Stores use calculus to dtermine how much of an item they should stock in order to maximuze profit. Manyone interested in business management sould have a firm grasp of math.

The argument that calculators will do the job for you doesn't stand up to the reality. If you don't usderstand algebra and calculus you won't know what all of the functions on the calculator are far in the first place.
The point of calculators is to do hard number crunching in a short amount of time. In many cases, I can do the math in my head faster than I can put it into a calculator, but when working with logs, roots, and very volumious numbers, they are very useful.

I recomend that all persons ask themselves this question, If a phycopathic killer pointed a gun to your head and demanded that you win you continued existance by solving for x when f(x) = x^2 + 6x +3 and y = 163, would you survive the encounter?

I'd say "10 you bastard, now give me YOUR money!!" :)

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Who exactly do you think is making these devices that do all of our math for us? Math is becoming increasingly important because of this technology that we rely on, and it was pretty important to begin with.

Why I am not surprised by your opinion?

Oh yeah, that's right. You're the one making all the calculator games.

"I hire a lawyer who charges a fee of 25%"

I am paying my lawyer to give me that answer.

Hey, just being a smart ass. I know algebra and mathematics have many uses for fun and profit. I just would like to know how we decided it is more important than music, art, drama, woodworking, electrical engineering, auto mechanics, computer science, and a whole range of subjects that are not required or emphasized to the same degree as are the mathematical sciences.

Well, electrical engineering and comp. sci. both require decent levels of math, probably at least calculus, so obviously more people should take Math than either of those. Woodwoorking and auto mechanics are probably not all that applicable beyond their specific purposes.

Art, Music, and Drama are an other issue entirely. They probably deserve more attention than they get, but the problem, as I see it, is that not that many people know how to teach them well. I've seen some arts courses that were basically jokes. Plus, they do have less practical application, which makes it easier to ignore them. Math, at least, you know can be useful, and at the basic precalculus level, teaching it is pretty straightforward (not that our teaching methods couldn't use improvement).

Plus, the mathematical way of thinking is extrememly valuable in almost any area. I know some people doubt this, and I'm not sure how to convince anyone, but it really is true.

I recomend that all persons ask themselves this question, If a phycopathic killer pointed a gun to your head and demanded that you win you continued existance by solving for x when f(x) = x^2 + 6x +3 and y = 163, would you survive the encounter?

163 = x^2 + 6x +3
0 = x^2 + 6x - 160

x = ( -6 ± ?(36 - 4*1*-160) ) / ( 2*1 )
x = ( -6 ± ?(676) ) / 2
x = ( -6 ± 26 ) / 2
x = -3 ± 13

x = { -16, 10 }

Art, Music, and Drama are an other issue entirely. They probably deserve more attention than they get, but the problem, as I see it, is that not that many people know how to teach them well. I've seen some arts courses that were basically jokes. Plus, they do have less practical application, which makes it easier to ignore them. Math, at least, you know can be useful, and at the basic precalculus level, teaching it is pretty straightforward (not that our teaching methods couldn't use improvement).

That is interesting. My experience has been the opposite. Some of the most talented teachers I have come across have been in the fine and liberal arts, whereas it has been my experience, personally and professionally, that math teachers sometimes comprehend their subject matter so well and so clearly that they often have a difficult time understanding why their students don't get it, as well. It is a rare math teacher who can make math understandable to one not already gifted in mathematics.

Nope. Sorry. y is completely irrelevant.

math sucks i agree with that, but its not persay the use of math on daily bases thats makes it necessary to learn, also the fact that it develops your mind in thinking on different levels. I hated it at school, but it does really help you building on your own comprehensive ability.

Maybe I've gotten lucky with Math teachers :-). Giving it a little thought, though, I think you're right that often Math teachers aren't the best.

What I was thinking of mostly was more on the level of curiculum. In Math you have a pretty straigforward notion of what yo're supposed to be teaching the students. In the arts, things aren't nearly so simple, since people haven't even generally agreed on a definition of art, or what good art is. And I would say that while I've seen some fantastic art teachers, I've also seen plenty who really teach basically nothing. With Math, even if your teacher isn't very good, the material he presents is solid.

Basically, teaching math is a safer bet.

and there's always a need for math teachers.
in holland for instance there where only 2 math teacher graduates last year, so there'll be a shortage sooner or later

i prolly die, but....

f(x) = x^2 + 6x +3 and y = 163

f(x) = x^2 + 6x = 160

10^2 = 100
6*10 = 60

so its 10, cuz 10 makes

f(x) = 10^2(=100) + 6*10(=60) +3, = y = 163

or i might have understood the question wrong:(
i'm just a dutchie, but if i understood it right. You dont need advanced, math you can just see it when u look at it fairly easy

Being an English major with something of an artistic background, I'll remark on the 'touchy feely' stuff versus the 'hard and real' stuff of math and science.

1) English, the actual usage of the language to communicate, is extremely important, and sadly neglected in society. Reading is a powerful tool. Effective communication is a powerful tool. Communicating in a convincing manner alters the course of history. Just being able to write a good computer manual would make life easier for multitudes.

2) Literature, for the most part, is useful, but it isn't TAUGHT in a useful manner, much like history. We're given stuff to read, jabbered at about it, made to write an essay, then made to move on. Shakespeare, though not even the most skilled writer of his time (The bugger who WAS died young, so Shakespeare just has more to show) in that part of the world. World literature and genre literature is nearly ignored, instead, its all about Western traditional literature. As such, people only learn about a very narrow area of what's actually written. There's no world view about ideas being shown, nor are many ever actually equipped to evaluate literary works. We're mostly just TOLD that they're important and good and that we're bad people for not enjoying them. Just like history, few ever actually figure out what its about, so few ever learn from it. There's a LOT to be learned from literature... but even most of my fellow English majors, and many profs, are utterly unaware of it.

3) Art used to be important. It used to be one of the most important forms of communication. Then Picasso and Modern art hit. Once people HAD to be educated to understand art, it lost its power. Once in awhile, a truly powerful art piece is brought forth, but people are so used to art being the realm of silly rich people that they rarely look at it long enough to be effected. Sadly, as with literature, some of the best examples are in comics, and thus ignored (The 9/11 series of comic artist images, for instance, was fairly powerful in design, and quite skilled, but few people actually care to look to comics as anything but kids stuff, despite the artistic manga and graphic novels such as Sandman that are so readily available to those who dare to look.)

4) Math is always important. You need it to deal with money, especially loans. Loans have some of the most insane math you'll ever see, all designed to suck the money out of you. Math is also vastly important for computer programming, population issues, and so forth.

5) Science needs to be revitalized like mad. The current surge of religious doctrine overtaking America is proof that science isn't getting through to people: People don't even acknowledge facts when they're waved in their faces anymore. Partly because they so rarely have to understand what's being done for them.

Everyone should make a serious attempt to learn algebra. A thourough understanding of the subject will allow you to solve virtually any math problem you might ever encounter. Try calculating mortgage payments without it. Don't arbitrarily limit your potential, because you think you know what you'll be doing the rest of your life.

Nope. Sorry. y is completely irrelevant.

I was wondering about that, though this could be a killer that uses f(x) and y interchangeably...?


*cough*
Mathematics is the basis of everything in this world.
Advanced mathematics isn't really necessary, but it's handy for understanding how a lot of things work.
There is mathematics hidden in almost everything.

I think mathematics at highschool is important, due to the fact that it exercises the other side of the brain. The part that english and other arty type subjects don't.

Having said that, I also take math at university. And I prefer discrete math type courses over Calculus. Indeed I just recently finished Linear Algebra...so ofcourse I think algebra is handy. Though when the hell I would use anything I learnt in my Lin Algebra course, I have no idea...

Let's see about the math i have used in daily life:

-construction of an ellips to build a table in the shape of an ellips for 30 people.
-dijkstra: To calculate the shortest path whenever i have to give a note to my group (i'm a leader in a youth movement). this is a 'travelling salesman' problem, but it can still be calculated exactly in a short amount of time(allthough it's a close call).
-basic math: to calculate my average week budget, to organise a big party (1500-2000 people), ... basicly everything that needs organising, works with a budget or just means i have to pay for more than 1 item in a store.
-basic statistics: to optimize the outcome of the dice in risk, to make a few very basic strategies for playing poker, ...

There should be different tests in basic and more advanced maths. The first should be compulsory, and would show competence at arithmetic, etc (ie, the stuff everybody would use in their jobs/everyday lives). Then people who can do that but just don't get algebra wouldn't be so disadvantaged.

It would also show much better if a kid has numeracy difficulties (ie, the numerical version of dyslexia, can't remember what it's called but it's more common than dyslexia) - they often do much better at algebra because the numbers have disappeared.

Certainly there are people, like you two, Imnsvale and EmoBuddy, who enjoy math and have an aptitude for it. But, does that mean everyone should study it? Maybe. Maybe not.

Yes, these math machines require designing, building, and maintainence. But, it will not take that many people to program and operate our math-labor saving devices. I can be as much of a Luddite as the next person when it come to techology, but are you really ready to give up your calculator for a sliderule?


Well, I guess you could not bother learning maths, but of course then you'll have to rely on either every shop you go to has all the necessary machines to tell you what to pay, as well as relying on the ppl serving you to be accurate and not give you the wring amount (either intentionally or not).

Personally, I prefer having a bit more control in my life and not have to be completely dependant on everyone else to tell me how much I owe.

And yes, you do usee Algebra everyday. Obviously not in the x + y way, but in other ways. When you're shopping have you ever tried to work out if the super-size economy package is better value? Or if the current special is worth buying? If so you've used Algebra.
Have you ever tried to work out which is the quickest public transport method to get to a particular destination? That's Algebra.
Ever had to work out how much money you're owed for the work you've done? What about splitting a dinner bill? Algebra.
How about trying to work out a budget, or going shopping with only a few dollars and working out what you can afford? That's right - Algebra

As for using the machines to tell us the answer:
Having been a Maths teacher, I noticed that students are far too reliant on calculators, and as a result have lost the ability to estimate. They assume the answer they get from the machine has to be correct and write it down without any thought. I've had answers where they're multiplied instead of adding, so 37+17 has the answer 629* which is an obvious asurdity. But the lack of estimation skills (i.e. to think "40+ 20 =60, so the answer is less than 60") coupled with the dependence on machines and idea that machines are infalliable has seriously undermined today's student's Maths abilities.


*and yes I worked that out in my head, but multiplying numbers is a specialty. I once totally freaked a student out by working out how many seconds she been alive for on her 16th birthday, faster than she could on the calculator. Don't ask me why I do this. I just can't stop myself. I've even counted the small tiles on the stairs leading up to my apartment on the 7th floor, and worked out their total surface area. It occupies my mind while I'm walking.


Hisab al-jabr w'almuqabala!

I agree with demented (in life alg is necessary)

Another point is this

When do you take algebra? For me it was 9th grade with alg2 trig coming at 11th grade

Now when do you decide what you want to do for a living?


I mean if we don’t force kids to take a minimum they wont do it … simple fact. I am GLAD someone forced me through math class because I hit collage and decided I was GOOD at computers but to get into networking it is a STATISTICS field

As such I needed to get through Calculus 4

Now if no one had ever made me take algebra I would have been in NO position to even consider this line of work. I would not only not have the correct thinking, but I would have had a CHANCE of even starting into that field

All because the school did not give me a broad enough starting point to live my dreams.

That is what k-12 is about … providing a base of skills and a broad starting point so you can go into ANYTHING your heart desires afterwards. By not making algebra necessary (and it is a very basic skill) you are narrowing the fields that these kids have available to them.

Not only that math is a great logical thought builder … and we need more of that.

I agree with demented (in life alg is necessary)

Another point is this

When do you take algebra? For me it was 9th grade with alg2 trig coming at 11th grade

Now when do you decide what you want to do for a living?


I mean if we don’t force kids to take a minimum they wont do it … simple fact. I am GLAD someone forced me through math class because I hit collage and decided I was GOOD at computers but to get into networking it is a STATISTICS field

As such I needed to get through Calculus 4

Now if no one had ever made me take algebra I would have been in NO position to even consider this line of work. I would not only not have the correct thinking, but I would have had a CHANCE of even starting into that field

All because the school did not give me a broad enough starting point to live my dreams.

That is what k-12 is about … providing a base of skills and a broad starting point so you can go into ANYTHING your heart desires afterwards. By not making algebra necessary (and it is a very basic skill) you are narrowing the fields that these kids have available to them.

Not only that math is a great logical thought builder … and we need more of that.
Ohh good point!
I forgot to mention that. It was something I always stressed to my students -that it gives you openings and alternatives.
Check to see how many jobs need even basic minimal maths skills. Then check the really well-paying jobs. You want a Doctor who lacks the ability to calculate the dosage to give you? How about an engineer who doesn't understand stress loads? Or a pilot who doesn't know about Shear factors? I guess if you're happy asking ppl if they want fries with that, then you don't need maths. But if you want a decent interesting job, you will.

Actually, I'd recommend learning philosophy (especially logic), as it's the basis of mathematics, which is itself the basis of all computer language.

And strangely enough, even though Maths is viewed as the ultimate logic process, a lot of mathematicians (and maths teachers) are left-handed (statistically more than the populace average), thus right-brain dominant - the creative side. But until you get into high level maths (knots, chaos, topology, etc) you don't see the creativeness of maths.

Of course algebra is indispensable and should be part of any curriculum. Appart from the reasons already mentioned, I'd like to point out that the existence of calculators and computers doesn't render the knowledge of algebra useless. On the contrary, it makes it more important.

Without knowing whether you have to multiply or divide to get a certain result the calculator is going to be useless. If you don't know what the computer is supposed to be doing checking the results for obvious errors will be impossible. And so on.

Even a painter has to calculate how many paintings she has to sell if she wants to pay her rent for that month.