NationStates Jolt Archive

Kwanzaa is known as a celebration of the life of human-beings, yet is not of African origins (Kwanzaa is collectively referred with Maoism); as informed during a Washington Post interview with the Kwanzaa creator, Ron Karenga, "People think it's African, but it's not. I came up with Kwanzaa because Black people wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of Bloods are partying."

What many black people don't know - Karenga developed Kwanzaa off of a cult-religion called 'Kawaida' that he attempted to establish. Karenga declared that African Americans must reject Jesus Christ as their Savior because religions such as Judaism & Christianity are myths of the white man.

People created the Christmas holiday out of celebration for their Christian belief, Ron Karenga created Kwanzaa because he hated white people and wanted his own "black christmas".

The majority of us wouldn't want a holiday invented by neo-nazism, so why should I treat Kwanzaa as any different. Karenga preached hatred for "white people" and "white culture". He still tells African-Americans to not follow Christianity because it is the white man's myth. This isn't some wonderful man who wants to bring African-Americans back to their roots. This man incited violence.

F#$% you, you f#$%&@# racist b@$#%&%.

ThePhimoticRing :sniper: :sniper: :mp5: :mp5:

F#$% you, you f#$%&@# racist b@$#%&%.

ThePhimoticRing :sniper: :sniper: :mp5: :mp5:

:rolleyes: How am I a racist this time?

"Kwanzaa" is a real holiday, a devil-worshipping one at that.

Oh yeah... I have to post the source so people will believe it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Karenga
:rolleyes:

Mr. Karenga had been involved in the torture of two female members of the Us Organization (then known as "United Slaves", a black nationalist cult that he himself had founded).

As reported in a May, 1971 article in the Los Angeles Times describing the testimony of one of the women: "Deborah Jones, who once was given the Swahili title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were living at Karenga's home when Karenga accused them of trying to kill him by placing 'crystals' in his food and water and in various areas of his house.

When they denied it, they were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis' mouth and placed against Miss Davis' face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vise. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said."

A key issue during this trial was whether Karenga was sane. Judge Arthur L. Alarcon read from a psychiatrist's report: "Since his admission here he has been isolated and has been exhibiting bizarre behavior, such as staring at the wall, talking to imaginary persons, claiming that he was attacked by dive-bombers and that his attorney was in the next cell."

During part of the interview Karenga would look around as if reacting to hallucinations as; when the examiner walked away for a moment he began a conversation with a blanket located on his bed, stating that there was someone there and implying indirectly that the 'someone' was a woman imprisoned with him for some offense.

Ron Karenga presented a picture which defined as "paranoid and schizophrenic with hallucinations and elusions, inappropriate affect, disorganization, and impaired contact with the environment."

yah, the guy did create it.

That's true.

But the thing is, that doesn't make it not a real holiday.

It is there, if you haven't noticed.

Here's another source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa

Mr. Karenga had been involved in the torture of two female members of the Us Organization (then known as "United Slaves", a black nationalist cult that he himself had founded).

As reported in a May, 1971 article in the Los Angeles Times describing the testimony of one of the women: "Deborah Jones, who once was given the Swahili title of an African queen, said she and Gail Davis were living at Karenga's home when Karenga accused them of trying to kill him by placing 'crystals' in his food and water and in various areas of his house.

When they denied it, they were whipped with an electrical cord and beaten with a karate baton after being ordered to remove their clothes. She testified that a hot soldering iron was placed in Miss Davis' mouth and placed against Miss Davis' face and that one of her own big toes was tightened in a vise. Karenga, head of US, also put detergent and running hoses in their mouths, she said."

A key issue during this trial was whether Karenga was sane. Judge Arthur L. Alarcon read from a psychiatrist's report: "Since his admission here he has been isolated and has been exhibiting bizarre behavior, such as staring at the wall, talking to imaginary persons, claiming that he was attacked by dive-bombers and that his attorney was in the next cell."

During part of the interview Karenga would look around as if reacting to hallucinations as; when the examiner walked away for a moment he began a conversation with a blanket located on his bed, stating that there was someone there and implying indirectly that the 'someone' was a woman imprisoned with him for some offense.

Ron Karenga presented a picture which defined as "paranoid and schizophrenic with hallucinations and elusions, inappropriate affect, disorganization, and impaired contact with the environment."


That is also all true, but the fact remains, Kwanzaa is a real holiday.

He is correct.

Kwanzaa was invented by a prisoner and has no roots in Africa.

"Kwanzaa" is a real holiday, a devil-worshipping one at that.

Kwanzaa was made up and I have no idea how people were duped into believing it is a real holiday. It could be devil-worshipin, but I don't know. :confused:

Christmas was made up and I have no idea how people were duped into believing it is a real holiday.

Listen, it wouldn't matter if they celebrated the greatness of can openers, it wouldn't matter if it were made up by an eight year old girl, the fact remains, it is a real holiday, even if you don't like it.

Christmas was made up and I have no idea how people were duped into believing it is a real holiday.
\


exactly.

that guy is coo coo for cocoa puffs

The language of Kwanzaa is all Swahili which is on the other side of Africa has has nothing to do with African American ancestory.

The symbol of CORN used in Kwanzaa is also wrong because corn is not indigenous to Africa.

Karenga used the hanukkah menorah candles in his Kwanzaa symbolisms.

The colors red green & black are used in the Kwanzaa traditon yet those colors represent Jamaica not Africa.

The Kwanzaa traditions are all Maoist, Marxist ideas.

The symbol of CORN used in Kwanzaa is also wrong because corn is not indigenous to Africa.

HOW MANY PINE TREES DO U SEE GROWING IN JERUSALEM?????

Don't be too hard on Kwanzaa. All holidays had to start somewhere, and whether this one started in Africa or in the US is largely irrelevant.

The way I look at it, if it makes my African-American brothers and sisters feel better about their heritage, go for it! God knows, we all need a lil something to feel good about now and then. :)

HOW MANY PINE TREES DO U SEE GROWING IN JERUSALEM?????

Nine.

holy fucking crap. look, referring to wikipedia is bunk. anybody can post an entry saying whatever they want on wikipedia.
nobody ever said kwanzaa had roots in africa.
Christmas has no roots in christianity.
nor does easter for that matter.

Christmas was moved to december 25th not just to be around the winter solstice/festival of lights holidays of many pagan religions, but specifically to coincide with Saturnalia, which was a big, fun holiday, and the romans weren't willing to go christian till they were assured that they could still have a grand old partyin' drunkenin' time on the 25th.

Easter (notice it's not called "jesus resurrection day") was first of all, arbitrarily moved to not coincide with passover anymore (remember how the Last Supper was a passover seder? actually you probably don't) because the christian jews (i.e. the cult of Jesus) had decided they didn't like mainstream jews anymore. and the word "Easter" has nothing to do with jesus. it's from the same root as Estrus and Estrogen, and was originally to worship the goddess Oestre, as a springtime Orgy, rabbit sacrifice, and fertility ritual, round about the spring equinox.

so quit your racist bullcrap. the only argument for kwanzaa being less "legitimate" than either of the above things is that it ain't been around as long. people celebrate it, so what the hell do you mean it's not a "real holiday"?

for that matter, a lot of african pride movements got their start around an idolization of ethiopia as a free black nation which resisted colonization. (yes, haile selassie was a horrible dictator. that's irrelevant to the importance of ethiopian symbolism to early black american movements. it's same place that the red, black, and green comes from. the Rastas and the Garveyites. that region speaks LOTS of swahili. so there's your connection.

and just in case we're still unclear, Kwanzaa is an AFRICAN-AMERICAN holiday. nobody says it's AFRICAN. Corn was a staple of the diets of not only black slaves in the US, but throughout the continent.

nobody says corn is from africa. stop building up your stupid straw man, if your only purpose is to paint him black and lynch him.

calling something communist is not a sound reason for being a prick.

just forget all these commmecial holidays

Celebrate Festivus, "the holiday for the rest of us"

I heard that the Christmas tree has something to do with Norse mythology. Some tree called Yggdrasil or something like that.

Don't be too hard on Kwanzaa. All holidays had to start somewhere, and whether this one started in Africa or in the US is largely irrelevant.

The way I look at it, if it makes my African-American brothers and sisters feel better about their heritage, go for it! God knows, we all need a lil something to feel good about now and then. :)

It was created by a psychopath that hated white people.

holy fucking crap. look, referring to wikipedia is bunk. anybody can post an entry saying whatever they want on wikipedia.
nobody ever said kwanzaa had roots in africa.
Christmas has no roots in christianity.
nor does easter for that matter.

Christmas was moved to december 25th not just to be around the winter solstice/festival of lights holidays of many pagan religions, but specifically to coincide with Saturnalia, which was a big, fun holiday, and the romans weren't willing to go christian till they were assured that they could still have a grand old partyin' drunkenin' time on the 25th.

Easter (notice it's not called "jesus resurrection day") was first of all, arbitrarily moved to not coincide with passover anymore (remember how the Last Supper was a passover seder? actually you probably don't) because the christian jews (i.e. the cult of Jesus) had decided they didn't like mainstream jews anymore. and the word "Easter" has nothing to do with jesus. it's from the same root as Estrus and Estrogen, and was originally to worship the goddess Oestre, as a springtime Orgy, rabbit sacrifice, and fertility ritual, round about the spring equinox.

so quit your racist bullcrap. the only argument for kwanzaa being less "legitimate" than either of the above things is that it ain't been around as long. people celebrate it, so what the hell do you mean it's not a "real holiday"?

Your mother must slap you in the face alot.

Fascist!

It was created by a psychopath that hated white people.



So what?!!!! It's STILL A FUCKING HOLIDAY!!!!

The guy who you yankees love so much who said "Give me liberty or give me death!" owned almost eighty slave plantations, but you still love him! Fuck it, whitey, don't be such a bigoted hypocrite!


God am I a genius....

It was created by a psychopath that hated white people.
Well, I can't help that, now can I? All I know is that a number of my African-American friends celebrate Kwanzaa because they feel it celebrates their heritage much more effectively than most other holidays. These are good people. They understand that it's a recently created holiday, and they add some of their own flair to it and have a great time. And if it's good enough for them, that's good enough for me. :)

We're taught that after the war the Nazis vanished without a trace
But batallions of fascists still dream of a master race
The history books they tell of their defeat in forty-five
But they all come out of the woodwork on the day the Nazi died
They say the prisoner of Spandau was a symbol of defeat
Whilst Hess remained imprisoned and the fascists they were beat
So the promise of an aryan world would never materialise
So why did they all come out of the woodwork on the day the Nazi died
The world is riddled with maggots--the maggots are getting fat
They're making a tasty meal of all the bosses and bureacrats
They're taking over the board rooms and they're fat and full of pride
And they all came out of the woodwork on the day the Nazi died
So if you meet with these historians I'll tell you what to say
Tell them that the Nazis never really went away
They're out there burning houses down and peddling racist lies
And we'll never rest again until every Nazi dies

Someone has been taking Michael Savage a little too seriously. All holidays are "fake" in the sense that they were created by men to commemorate or celebrate something. In my opinion (being an American Mid-West Athiest raised as a non-practicing Christan) is that the holiday is made by what it currently celebrates. Celebrating race history is a horrible way to derive self esteem, happiness or joy.

Over the years, holidays themselves evolve. Christmas celebrations as they are known today were unheard of before the industrial revolution. People started to take less seriously this nonsense of original sin, and started to accept christmas as a way to celebrate material abundance and happiness here, now, on this earth. This is the current meaning of christmas, and in some respects the festival of lights is as well. I have little cultural exposure to how Kwanza is celebrated now days, but if it's as commercial as the other winter holidays, then I think it's all right. Who needs to feel guilty or put down during the dead of winter?

I say celebrate the return to longer and warmer days with shows of good will and benevolence, no matter what form this celebration takes and no matter who dreamed up the day in the first place.

Your mother must slap you in the face alot.

oh my, did i use naughty language? surely i must be punished for such a terrible transgression. maybe you would be willing to take up the task, oh wise-and-all-knowing-fatherland-figure.

you see, even when i was a young'n, my mother believed that lashing out against people with physical violence for doing things you don't like is wrong. clearly, if only i had been beaten about the head more, i would have incurred enough brain damage to see things your way.

My idea is that we celebrate the return of Spring with classic orgies, drinking contests, tests of skill and daring, and make sure everyone gets a present! :D

All holidays are equally "fake" in that they are created by people, for whatever reasons. Also, try backing up Wikipedia citations with additional sources. Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia that anyone can post to.

My idea is that we celebrate the return of Spring with classic orgies, drinking contests, tests of skill and daring, and make sure everyone gets a present! :D

Done deal.

Done deal.
Kewl! Let's start this Spring! I'll bring the women if you bring the beer! Heh!

( must be my Scandinavian background coming out, eh? Damned Vikings! LOL! )

Thanksgiving relates to the survival of the early settlers - Christmas relates to the birth of Christ - Hannukah commemorates the victory of the Maccabees over the Hellenistic Syrians - Easter relates to the resurrection of Christ - but Kwanzaa was just made up.

The official site of Kwanzaa says that it is an African celebration of the harvest. But Ron Karenga, the creator of Kwanzaa, just made it all up.
Harvet time is in October, Halloween was a Celtic tradition that celebrated the harvest season. Corn wasn't even indigneous to Africa. The guy got all of his facts wrong when he created it.

What's really ridiculous is that kids can't celebrate Christmas in school because of the seperation of church & state, but because Kwanzaa it isn't a religious holiday they will celebrate it instead. Why should we teach kids to celebrate a fake holiday invented by a racist psychopath?

Kwanzaa is every bit as real as Christ's birth being on December 25th.

It is as real a holiday as Veteran's Day. Or Memorial Day. Or Independence Day. or Arbor Day or.... need I go on?

Making up holidays is how we celebrate or remember ideas or events that need remembering.

I'm still trying to push forward 'International Play In Mud Day'. It's not going so well. :(

Kwanzaa is every bit as real as Christ's birth being on December 25th.

It is as real a holiday as Veteran's Day. Or Memorial Day. Or Independence Day. or Arbor Day or.... need I go on?

Making up holidays is how we celebrate or remember ideas or events that need remembering.

I'm still trying to push forward 'International Play In Mud Day'. It's not going so well. :(

The guy created Kwanzaa within his cult and declared that only African Americans could celebrate it. He cited that it was an African tradition, only to later admit he had just made it all up. He was a nutjob convicted for torturing two women from his own cult, and during a psychological examination in prison they discovered he was was suffering from paranoid delusions & schizophrenia. So now we take Christmas out of school and replace it with this man's Marxist beliefs.

The guy created Kwanzaa within his cult and declared that only African Americans could celebrate it. He cited that it was an African tradition, only to later admit he had just made it all up. He was a nutjob convicted for torturing two women from his own cult, and during a psychological examination in prison they discovered he was was suffering from paranoid delusions & schizophrenia. So now we take Christmas out of school and replace it with this man's Marxist beliefs.

And the Nazis stuck pink triangles on homosexuals in Germany so they would stand out from 'normal' people and they could be carted away along with the jews. Later it became a symbol of homosexuality. Mostly to rub it in his cold dead face.

The Mormon religion was invented by a lunatic who 'listened to angels' and made a rather groovy story about Jesus's further adventures.

To help us remember the life and death of Christ(Easter), we stick colored eggs in the grass and hide candy in kids' socks.

People are weird. We shouldn't hold that against em.

My favorite part of Kwanzaa is if you step back and look objectivly at it,
It is simple a modified Haunakah,
they even call their Menorah something similar isnt is Kenorah or some nonsense?

if you want a African holiday Im sure one of the tribes from whom the persons sold in America were stolen from by their Tribal neighbors when the Dutch came calling had something.

My favorite part of Kwanzaa is if you step back and look objectivly at it,
It is simple a modified Haunakah,
they even call their Menorah something similar isnt is Kenorah or some nonsense?

if you want a African holiday Im sure one of the tribes from whom the persons sold in America were stolen from by their Tribal neighbors when the Dutch came calling had something.

The ethnic groups from whence most African Americans come were not tribes, they were kingdoms. Read a book, you would know.

There are festivals in many parts of Africa that celebrate personal values or social phenomena like Kwanzaa does. True, Karenga basically shot in the dark and hit a bullseye in saying that (he didn't know qnd got lucky) but these festivals do exist all the same: Gelede (celebration of women's power and mystery) amongst the Yoruba and the celebratons of the Moran (warrior) attributes amongst the Maasai of Kenya come immediately to mind, though there are many many others and not just in Africa.

Is "Kwanzaa" a "made-up" holiday? Yep. Just like Mother's Day and Father's Day which were invented by Hallmark Greeting Card Company to sell more cards, Thanksgiving (we don't ACTUALLY know if the Pilgrims celebrated anything with the Indians, but it's a nice story) Memorial Day, or any other holiday, really. Christmas is a made-up date -- most Biblical scholars think Jesus was actually born somewhere in April or May, 3 BCE.

So what? What's so offensive about Kwanzaa over any other made-up holiday? Mad that black people decided to have their own holiday? How do Muslims or Jews feel about Christmas, or Italians on Saint Patrick's Day?

If you want to celebrate Kwanzaa, do it. I personally don't give a damn, and I doubt many other folks would either.

Geez people, get over it.


Ge-Ren

heres a link that tells you all about "christmas" http://www.witchvox.com/holidays/yule/yulehistory.html

I heard that the Christmas tree has something to do with Norse mythology. Some tree called Yggdrasil or something like that.

Yggdrasil, (or Lärad or Irminsol.) the tree of life, with its three roots etc. Yes, that was the world according to the norse mythology (Here you could find, from top to bottom, Asgård, the land of the Gods (with the legendary halls of Valhall, owned by Oden), Midgård (Where humans and Giants lived. ) and the realms of the dwarfs.
And beneath it all was the underworld, where the evil goddess Hel (Yupp. That's where the English word 'hell' comes from) who ruled over the people who've died a cowards death. (Think she was a bit of a loonie. She collected nails from the dead people to build her ship. )

BUT, Yggdrasil was an ash-tree, and has nothing to do with our modern x-mas trees.
The tradition of having x-mas trees comes from Germany. In souther Germany and Switzerland x-mas trees are mentioned during the medevial times.
But the x-mas tree as we see it today (a pine with candles and all that) was first mentioned in Pfalz (Germany) during the 1660's.

Thou, in the Viking times, in the kingdom of Svealand (today, the middle part of Sweden) in the holy town of Uppsala, there was a big sacrifice tree, where, every mid winter festivities, a large quantity of slaughtered animals were hung up. (That tree were later chopped down by christian missionaries, with their usual no-respect for other religions. THEY however were tortured and burned at the stake for their crime.)
This is why many thinks that the x-mas tree is a ancient norse tradition, when in fact it is ze Germans who invented ze whole concept.

My idea is that we celebrate the return of Spring with classic orgies, drinking contests, tests of skill and daring, and make sure everyone gets a present! :D



mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......classic orgies.

The language of Kwanzaa is all Swahili which is on the other side of Africa has has nothing to do with African American ancestory.
Except Kwanzaa isn't a real Swahili word. But you're right, Swahili is the East African coastal language that was born of lots of Bantu languages and Arabic through trading (including slavery) relationships many moons ago. If you go to Zanzibar they'll tell you it started there. If you go to Dar Es Salaam they'll tell you it started there. If you go to... well, anyway, you get the picture, they're all very proud of their language.

These days it's the official language of Tanzania, and the joint official language (with English) of Kenya.

The symbol of CORN used in Kwanzaa is also wrong because corn is not indigenous to Africa.
They do, however, grow lots of maize. Remember, English people are very proud of their apples, but they come from the Middle East. It doesn't mean it can't be a symbol of our identity.

Karenga used the hanukkah menorah candles in his Kwanzaa symbolisms.
Okay.

The colors red green & black are used in the Kwanzaa traditon yet those colors represent Jamaica not Africa.
I think you'd be hard pushed to find yourself an African flag. I think you'll find that there are lots of different countries, with lots of different national colours, in Africa. It's not just one country, contrary to popular belief. It's a whole continent.

The Kwanzaa traditions are all Maoist, Marxist ideas.
Well, I wouldn't know. But what's that got to do with whether it's a festival or not?

Kwanzaa is known as a celebration of the life of human-beings, yet is not of African origins (Kwanzaa is collectively referred with Maoism); as informed during a Washington Post interview with the Kwanzaa creator, Ron Karenga, "People think it's African, but it's not. I came up with Kwanzaa because Black people wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of Bloods are partying."


And your point is? Who cares? If people want a reason to party, who am I to say no?

for that matter, a lot of african pride movements got their start around an idolization of ethiopia as a free black nation which resisted colonization. (yes, haile selassie was a horrible dictator. that's irrelevant to the importance of ethiopian symbolism to early black american movements. it's same place that the red, black, and green comes from. the Rastas and the Garveyites. that region speaks LOTS of swahili. so there's your connection.
Are you sure about that? Some speak it in Uganda, it's widely spoken in Kenya, and it's the official language of Tanzania, but Ethiopia?

The guy created Kwanzaa within his cult and declared that only African Americans could celebrate it. He cited that it was an African tradition, only to later admit he had just made it all up. He was a nutjob convicted for torturing two women from his own cult, and during a psychological examination in prison they discovered he was was suffering from paranoid delusions & schizophrenia. So now we take Christmas out of school and replace it with this man's Marxist beliefs.

And this is the REAL intended point of this thread. The acceptance of any and all holidays not associated with Christianity and the attempts to deny Christians their religious practices on the pretext of social and cultural correctness.

How about a festevous for the rest uf us

I heard the line, 'it's devil worship', and it doesn't sit well with me. By some people's standards, all celebrations and observances that are not expressly their own are deemed 'devil worship' - an incredible, if puerile, attempt to project a rather parochial 'either/or, black/white, good/evil' outlook on the rest of our species.

Dualism is not universal. Religious suppositions aren't binding on non-subscribers. If you want to see demons lurking in every breadbox, that's your prerogative, but understand it's your psychosis as well. Don't expect the world to embrace your mindest if your mindset cannot embrace the world.

Peace to all,

DT.

"Kwanzaa" is a real holiday, a devil-worshipping one at that.
All I got to say is "Santa Did not die for your sins"

So, what you're saying is that Kwanzaa is not as real as the celebration of the birth of a child presumed to be the son of God (although he never claimed this himself) on a day which is not his real birthday but was chosen to match an arbitrary pagan holday, and that we celebrate by increasing the deforrestation of the planet, impoverishing oursleves to buy each other gifts spurred on to satisfy the greed of others (recal those seven sins if you will), and cover this by lying to our children with some bullshit story that a magic fat guy who sees flying animals actually made the gifts with help from height-deficient helpers and then broke into the house overnight to deliver them?



Fair enough.


What COULD be that "real"?

Ya know what?

It's real enough to the people who celebrate it. Let whoever wants to celebrate Kwanzaa celebrate Kwanzaa. Religion is a very personal thing, so maybe we should not intrude into peoples personal lives and let them live as they choose. Like the 1st Amendment says we should... ;)

Does anyone really need a 'real' reason to eat, drink and spend time with friends and family? I think not.

Kwanzaa is not, per se, a religious holiday. It's a recent (1970s) cultural creation. I'm not going to judge those pretexts, however.

The question of how Christians were duped into celebrating Christmas is actually far more interesting.

Celebrate the birth of a guy you think is the son of God? Fine by me, a good reason for a holiday.

Putting it on the winter equinox, coinciding with a holy day for the mystic cult of Mithra, as well as the chosen day to celebrate the birth of "The Unconquered Sun," in the late Roman pagan tradition? Now that, my friends, is an interesting choice. You could have picked any day, but you chose Dec. 25th, a day already filled with two other god-birth traditions.

Doesn't mean either Kwanzaa or Christmas isn't a holiday, just that their origins and chosen dates are pretty interesting from an outsider's perspective.

There's something about these kinds of threads you've got to love. Nobody reads the previous posts, merely wishing to show off their own vast knowledge on a subject, thus repeating the same points over and over again.

I, of course, am utterly guilty in this regard.

There's something about these kinds of threads you've got to love. Nobody reads the previous posts, merely wishing to show off their own vast knowledge on a subject, thus repeating the same points over and over again.

I, of course, am utterly guilty in this regard.

Here, have another drumstick.
*hands over a piece of fried chicken*

Fuck it, whitey, don't be such a bigoted hypocrite!



Aw, good to see rational discussion thrives here.

Didn't we cover this last december in three or four long threads?

So what? How is Kwanzaa fake? Ron Karenga started it. He might have had a checkered past, but what bearing does that have on the legitimacy of the holiday?

But you wanna talk about fake holidays? How about the fact that as a nation, we're about to celebrate the birthday of some dude who may not ever have existed. Happy Birthday, Jesus! Give the Easter Bunny a high five for me.

I think instead of "fake" you meant to say "recent."

So, noone read any of the information about why Kwanzaa is fake... typical.

Kwanzaa is like a Mad TV parody;

Some racist psycho convict doesn't research anything about Africa and comes up with a harvest festival in December instead the actual harvest season. He uses corn as a symbol when corn was never indigenous to Africa. He steals symbols from Hanukkah and uses the colors of Jamaica. Ron Karenga created this holiday to be celebrated by "blacks only" and declared it an offense to allow anglo-saxon culture within Kwanzaa. Karenga tortured women, and talked to imaginary friends. Members of his cult robbed & murdered people through the late 60's and early 70's. It's based on stupidity, lies and racism.

Christmas is different; It was once a highly celebrated Celtic festival. The modern traditions; like the lighting of the tree, came over a period of hundreds of years - Noone made up the symbolisms, they arrived naturally - the Christmas tree came from Germany where families left candles burning in the snow covered trees so workers could find their way home. The giving of gifts came from Saint Nicholas who was known to leave a gold coin in the stockings of children that would hang clothing from windows to dry. The day of the birth of Jesus Christ is not the same day throughout the world, as Christmas is celebrated during different times in other countries and often don't include religious ideals. It's based on beliefs, giving & togetherness.

So what?!!!! It's STILL A FUCKING HOLIDAY!!!!

The guy who you yankees love so much who said "Give me liberty or give me death!" owned almost eighty slave plantations, but you still love him! Fuck it, whitey, don't be such a bigoted hypocrite!


God am I a genius....

If you are a genius, you whould be able to make your point without yelling or cussing. :(

Does anyone know in what year Christmas was made a national holiday in the U.S.? What about England and Australia?

Kwanzaa is every bit as real as Christ's birth being on December 25th.

It is as real a holiday as Veteran's Day. Or Memorial Day. Or Independence Day. or Arbor Day or.... need I go on?

Making up holidays is how we celebrate or remember ideas or events that need remembering.

I'm still trying to push forward 'International Play In Mud Day'. It's not going so well. :(

I think what we are trying to say is the holidays are built on some historical event or to honor some real or historical person or persons. Kwanzaa is not related to any historical event, nor does it honor some real person or persons.

Methinks the author of the thread wanted to use Kwanzaa and its founders as a scapegoat for saying that blacks have no cultural relevance.

:rolleyes:

Frighteningly enough, I'm with Etru on this one.

Who the fuck cares how or why it started? It's god damned December. Let people celebrate what they went. Weither it's Christmas, Kwanzaa, Wintereenmass, Gifty WubWub Day, WHATEVER. You post shows that you're nothing more then a cold hearted little prick who gets his kicks from demeaning others. Oh poor baby, you don't like the holiday? Does somebody need a wamburger and some cries? Grow up, little child.

Just what constitutes a "real" holiday anyway? They're all made up... every holiday started somewhere for some purpose. Does that mean there's no such thing as a holiday?

Kwanzaa does have totally fraudulant origins though, at least the version I heard about it (am I the only one who was told it was an African harvest festival?)

Anyway, why don't we just celebrate something like the winter solstice? The validity of the event isn't that debatable, at least. :rolleyes:

"Kwanzaa" is a real holiday, a devil-worshipping one at that.
Yes, just like everything else that doesn't fit into your sad, lonely little view of the world.

I can't wait for faith to completly die out.

Kwanzaa does have totally fraudulant origins though, at least the version I heard about it (am I the only one who was told it was an African harvest festival?)

Anyway, why don't we just celebrate something like the winter solstice? The validity of the event isn't that debatable, at least. :rolleyes:

The word is "fraudulent." Let's start there.

I'll end by saying: if you don't like "fraudulent" holidays, don't send your parents Mother's or Father's Day cards, don't celebrate Thanksgiving or any national holidays, and definitely don't think you're celebrating Jesus' true birthday on the 25th. ALL holidays are "fraudulent" by this definition.

I don't see how Kwanzaa is fraudulent when Karenga has been clear about why he started it. A guy who had seen his friends and neighbors suffering under gang violence comes up with an idea to give them something to celebrate aside from misery, and he's chastized for it. Yet we applaud Hallmark Card Company for finding yet another way to rip us off by inventing two holidays.

I just don't get it. Racism does weird stuff to people.

Ge-Ren

Christmas was made up and I have no idea how people were duped into believing it is a real holiday.

Actually, the choice for Dec. 25 was decided by people, and there is some belief that they wanted to put it near a pagan holiday to help exorcise that celebration. The day, however, is accepted as a particular day to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ.

As for Kwanzaa, I suppose it is for black Americans who prefer against celebrating the birth of Christ.

Does anyone know in what year Christmas was made a national holiday in the U.S.? What about England and Australia?
At least as early as 1643, although it was celebrated before this, it was banned for a while by puritans.

As for Kwanzaa, I suppose it is for black Americans who prefer against celebrating the birth of Christ.

No, it's not. Most African-Americans are Christian. Those who celebrate Kwanzaa (many don't) celebrate BOTH if they are Christian. It's not an "alternative" holiday to Christmas. It's totally seperate.


Ge-Ren

This is about the stupidest thread I ever saw.

What holiday was not made up?

The pre bronze age dudes who decided that it would be nice to have a party around the winter solstice because it was an otherwise boring and cold time of year may well have raped and tortured the crap out of each other. That isn't going to spoil my enjoyment of christmas.

Kwanzaa is an obviously created holiday, and so is Mother's Day, Father's Day and Valentine's Day. Kwanzaa is a kind of "African-American Families Day". Which is fair enough, because Lord knows we can use my excuses to keep families together these days.

While I have no oppion on Kwanzaa, mostly because I know really nothing about the holiday, I can say more than a few things on the christian holidays that we know today. The early christians had no holidays except for the celibation of Christ's death and resorection since they actually had a solid time of year for its celibration, but they were great adaptors of cultur and celibrations. (For some reason modern christians don't seem to have that open mindedness anymore. And I can say this because I am a christian myself.) As they grew in numbers and gained more support they found that the only way to win recrute or keep their members from celibrating "pagan" holidays was to adopt them into the yearly cycle. What they had decided to do was rather than fight other religions they would adopt significant dates and meaningful tradions and make them their own. And in some ways the holidays retained their original meanings. Since Easter is still as much about the coming of spring and new life as it is about the resorection. As a side note Thanksgiving did occur, but the one we think of in our cleibrations happened in October rather than November. Perhaps if one wants to argue the legitamacy of holidays then consider this many holidays that have been handed down for generations are founded upon even older celibrations, most coinsiding with the changing of the seasons.

I think people are bagging on Wikipedia rather unfairly in this thread. Yes, anyone can post to it, but it's also got a tremendous amount of fact-checking and (potential) peer review. Thanks to the intellectual one-upsmanship fostered by forums and other online communication, any entry that's been on Wikipedia for any length of time has been worked over with a fine toothed comb by some know-it-all.

Besides, this is the same process that goes into the production of any encyclopedia. Only difference is that the depth of peer review is shallower in print encyclopedias (most entries are written by a single expert in the field, whereas Wikipedia allows anyone to contest an entry. While this allows Joe Schmoe to contest an entry, it also allows a dozen Ph.D.s to input varied views) and that the revision process is instant on Wikipedia whereas it takes a reprint to amend a print encyclopedia.

Also, it's kind of silly to argue about this when Wikipedia is correct about Karenga and Kwanzaa.

- from the Martin Luther King Jr website:

The Truth About Kwanzaa (http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html)
http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html

- from the Martin Luther King Jr website:

The Truth About Kwanzaa (http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html)
http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html

Ron Everett (aka. Maulana Karenga), the leader of a violent racist gang of black Marxist thugs called US attempted to create a religion called Kawaida. Kwanzaa is an offshoot of that religion. Both were intended as an alternative to Christianity, which Everett (aka. Maulana) calls "spookism" and "eurocentric". He claims the Bible and Judaism is myth and asks for blacks to reject Jesus Christ.

The racist observance was invented 5 years before Everett was served time in prison for torturing two teenage girls. Everett and an associate had suspected the girls, who lived in a commune with him, of putting "crystals" in his food and had tortured the girls overnight by forcing them to disrobe, eat caustic detergeant, putting their toes in a vice, whipping them with an extension cord, and burning them and their various orifices with a soldering iron. He did at least 5 years in prison for this crime.

Later, at a meeting in a UCLA student union lunch room about who would run the new black studies program, some members of the rival Black Panthers heckled Everett during his presentation. After the meeting, Everett's gang shot and killed 2 of those same Panthers before they could leave the building.

Everett went on to capitalize on his violent, racist history and tendencies and his Marxist worldview (he is a self-described Marxist) to qualify for the position, which he hold to this day, of head of the black studies program at California State University Long Beach.

Kwanzaa was designed to spread Everett's bizarre religious and Marxist beliefs. It is a sham. There is no harvest nor harvest festival in December in Africa. No tribe in Africa celebrates anything remotely similar. Only a small piece of Africa knows Swahili. Maize is not an African crop. Etc. You should have the picture by now.

The 7 themes or ideas of Kwanzaa are racially/culturally divisive and even Marxist by design. They are the same identical tenets used by the Symbionese Liberation Army, the terrorist group who kidnapped Patty Hearst and murdered at least one security guard.

Kwanzaa is a nostalgia for a history that never happened and a culture that never existed, a desire for a failed system of collective economics that has left millions dead in its wake, and a misguided hope for a racially divided nation that should never exist.

So what point is there in bringing this up?

Is this code talk for "Black shoodn't be allow to celebray any holidays that the massas didn' approov ov"?

:rolleyes:

Why hasn't this thread been locked? It's useless. All holidays must've been invented sometime. You know why we celebrate the birth of Christ in December? because it fit with most other religions around the world. Most cultures celebrate someting during the darkest bit of the year, this makes it a lot easier to convert people.

"You're celebrating anyway, why not just put up a few angles and celebrate our way instead? It'll be much the same."

If we all thought the way you do, all holidays would be false ones.

It's a holiday, get over it. The only thing that actually "defines" whether something is a holiday or not, is whether or not people observe it... People observe it, therefore it is a holiday.

If Kwanza is not a "real" holiday because someone invented it then

Thanksgiving is not a holiday.
President's Day is not a holiday.
Veterans Day is not a holiday.
Labor Day is not a holiday.
Independence Day is not a holiday.
Christmas is not a holiday.
Easter is not a holiday.
Memorial Day is not a holiday.
Lee/Jackson/King Day is not a holiday (That's what its called here).
etc.

Just, get over it folks.

Let me put it this way: regardless of how it came about, and regardless as to whether it actually means anything, we're still left with one thing: people celebrate it anyway. Therefore, I say more power to them, whether we consider it a real holiday or not.
Though your initial post was, I believe, more an attempt at so called "intelligent racism," not to mention bashing the entire left-wing of politics at the same time.

It's exclusive and marginalizing discussions like this that make us lose sight of the true reason for Christmas: The birth of Santa.

We need an American Christmas Carol!


Christmas time is here, by golly,
Disapproval would be folly,
Deck the halls with hunks of holly,
Fill the cup and don't say when.

Kill the turkeys, ducks and chickens,
Mix the punch, drag out the Dickens,
Even though the prospect sickens,
Brother, here we go again.

On christmas day you can't be sore,
Your fellow man you must adore,
There's time to rob him all the more,
The other three hundred and sixty-four.

Relations, sparing no expense'll
Send some useless old utensil,
Or a matching pen and pencil.
Just the thing I need, how nice!

Its doesn't matter how sincere it
Is, nor how heartfelt the spirit,
Sentiment will not endear it,
What's important is the price.

Hark the Herald.... Tribune sings,
Advertising wonderous things!

God rest ye merry merchants
May you make the yuletide pay.

Angels we have heard on high
Tell us to go out and buy!

So let the raucous sleigh bells jingle,
Hail our dear old friend Kris Kringle,
Driving his reindeer across the sky.
Don't stand underneath when they fly by!

Karenga is a creep, Kwanzaa is a real holiday, and in my opinion it takes someone really superficial to accept a brand-new holiday just because it was created in an attempt to make something anti-American that actually means something. :rolleyes:

The meaning of Easter and the celebration of Easter are two very different things. One is about the death and rebirth of Chirst, the other is about chocolate bunnies and colorful eggs.
Heck Chirstmas is about the birth of Christ. Christ wasn't even born in Decemeber, he was born in like April. Christians just made the celebration more in line with the Roman holidays so is wouldn't seem out of place.

And by the way, bashing all of left-wing politics is both fun and purposeful, not to mention comparatively easy.

- from the Martin Luther King Jr website:

The Truth About Kwanzaa (http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html)
http://www.martinlutherking.org/kwanzaa.html
Wow. Just wow. Squating on a website name using Martin Luther King Jr. for your little agenda. Wow. You are a horrible person. No, really. You are a really horrible human being. I'm stunned. I didn't think I could have such a low opinion of somebody, but here we are. I'm amazed....

And by the way, bashing all of left-wing politics is both fun and purposeful, not to mention comparatively easy.
So is bashing all of right-wing politics, not to mention that left-wing politics are very obviously the better choice for countries.

From iSteve.com:

Annual Kwanzaa Song Search

A December tradition here at iSteve.com is our attempt to find out if anyone in Kwanzaa's 35 years of bureaucratically recognized existence has ever written a Kwanzaa song that is not intended either to parody Kwanzaa or to indoctrinate children, but simply to celebrate the holiday...

http://www.isteve.com/04DecA.htm#ktimmy

---

I'm european, so it is quite hard to me to understand the peculiarities of the Political Correctness in US. There has been no reason to create such an artificial holiday for any minorities over here. Such activities only seek to separate the races and forestall any integration. Marxists of the 60s did their best to stir internal dissent and chaos, for it was part of their revolutionary agenda.

As such, Kwanzaa is one of the stupidest things I have heard, after Affirmative Action and reverse discrimination. The all-powerful Market Forces of Global Capitalism have tried hard to get us adopt many of your american festivities (like Valentine's Day and your terrible "X-Mas" ways) instead of our native traditions. I hope Kwanzaa isn't coming next.

If you want real nazism, head to the left . . .

This myth about the right being the controlling power and Gestapo-like force is really very unfair. We know what the goals of the liberal left (at least here in America) are, and it winds up in the same sad direction. But a moralistic democracy is better than the "Civil rights lovefest" we've got going here now.

Wow. Just wow. Squating on a website name using Martin Luther King Jr. for your little agenda. Wow. You are a horrible person. No, really. You are a really horrible human being. I'm stunned. I didn't think I could have such a low opinion of somebody, but here we are. I'm amazed....

I think ThePhimoticRing is black RL. It's too bad really, but I've seen this kind of thing before from African-Americans who hate themselves. Maybe he's having a little penis envy because he works against the African-American stereotype? Who else would give themselves a name involving "phimotic"?


Ge-Ren

.
Kawaida:

What many black people don't know - Karenga developed Kwanzaa off of a cult-religion called 'Kawaida' that he attempted to establish. Karenga declared that African Americans must reject Jesus Christ as their Savior because religions such as Judaism & Christianity are myths of the white man.

.

Being neither left, nor right, but libertarian, I find the right-left debates and jabbing quite pedantic.

Either side blames the other for things they themselves do.... It's quite humorous for a study of human nature.

:rolleyes: How am I a racist this time?
because your post had the word "black" in it

nigs smell

Why hasn't this thread been locked? It's useless.

I don't think, "It's useless." I've learned quite a bit here. I damn sure don't know everything and find it very informational, except for the flames.

It's exclusive and marginalizing discussions like this that make us lose sight of the true reason for Christmas: The birth of Santa.

:eek: :gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

From iSteve.com:

I'm european, so it is quite hard to me to understand the peculiarities of the Political Correctness in US. There has been no reason to create such an artificial holiday for any minorities over here. Such activities only seek to separate the races and forestall any integration. Marxists of the 60s did their best to stir internal dissent and chaos, for it was part of their revolutionary agenda.

As such, Kwanzaa is one of the stupidest things I have heard, after Affirmative Action and reverse discrimination. The all-powerful Market Forces of Global Capitalism have tried hard to get us adopt many of your american festivities (like Valentine's Day and your terrible "X-Mas" ways) instead of our native traditions. I hope Kwanzaa isn't coming next.

Very well said. Look out though, Kwanzaa is in the mail.

I like the way they celebrate Christmas in Spain. Dec 25th is a religious Holy Day, no different from any other Holy day. Gifts are exchanged on Three Kings Day, which is a holiday.

Do you do something similar in your country?

Kwanzaa is another winter-dwelling WTF moment..just like everything else we celebrate.

Let me put it like this.

If Kwanzaa isn't allowed to be celebrated, then neither is Christmas. Jesus wasn't born in December, so christmas is an artificial holiday.



In fact, the only two holiday that really works is Mithras' birthday. That's it.



Now, I dunno what Phimotic has stuck up his ass, but really, who cares? OMFG A holiday was invented...like ALL THE OTHERS.

Seriously, how do you morons breath?

To help us remember the life and death of Christ(Easter), we stick colored eggs in the grass and hide candy in kids' socks.

don't forget the orgies and pagan fertility rituals! they're the best part!

.
Kawaida:

What many black people don't know - Karenga developed Kwanzaa off of a cult-religion called 'Kawaida' that he attempted to establish. Karenga declared that African Americans must reject Jesus Christ as their Savior because religions such as Judaism & Christianity are myths of the white man.

.

A lot of black people DO know it, and they ignored the more racist Afrocentric notions involved with the festival. Many blacks in the 60's and 70's were justifiably dissatisfied with "mainstream" culture given their treatment in society. Is it surprising that some expressed their anger by calling for a separation from society? Some people heeded the call, others took the elemenbts they found positive and dealt with those instead.

So what? Evangelical Christians call to "mainstream" America to re-create a totally religious Christmas season, and most of America ignores that too. What's the difference? Karenga is no threat to anything in society, neither is Kwanzaa. Time has proven that.

Get over it, accept that you're going to be black no matter how you say you are, and be happy you have the choice to dislike Karenga as much as you do.

Yay freedom of speech!


Ge-Ren

I would have to clearify that the difference between Kwanzaa & Christmas:

People created the Christmas holiday out of celebration for their Christian belief, Ron Karenga (http://www.nathanielturner.com/karenga2.htm) created Kwanzaa because he hated white people and wanted his own "black christmas".

The majority of us wouldn't want a holiday invented by neo-nazism, so why should I treat Kwanzaa as any different. Karenga preached hatred for "white people" and "white culture". He still tells African-Americans to not follow Christianity because it is the white man's myth. This isn't some wonderful man who wants to bring African-Americans back to their roots. This man incited violence.

*points at her previous post* like I said...

And the Nazis stuck pink triangles on homosexuals in Germany so they would stand out from 'normal' people and they could be carted away along with the jews. Later it became a symbol of homosexuality. Mostly to rub it in his cold dead face.

The Mormon religion was invented by a lunatic who 'listened to angels' and made a rather groovy story about Jesus's further adventures.

To help us remember the life and death of Christ(Easter), we stick colored eggs in the grass and hide candy in kids' socks.

People are weird. We shouldn't hold that against em.
You know Jesus and all the Prophets down through history listen to angels too.
So calling him a lunatic for doing what the other Prophets did is foolish and ignorant.

He is correct.

Kwanzaa was invented by a prisoner and has no roots in Africa.
How does that make it a "less real" holiday? Holidays cannot be measured by their "reality".

Ummm...Aren't all Holidays made up???

My 1987(!) Webster's New Lexicon Dictionary defines it as:
Kwanza (or Kwanzaa) n: A divisible form of Angolan currency.

Now, that's that's all cleared up... :)


BTW, here's a place to convert *anything* into Kwanza! (looks like it's just a redirect of Oanda.Com)

http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/africa/angola/currency.htm

You know Jesus and all the Prophets down through history listen to angels too.
So calling him a lunatic for doing what the other Prophets did is foolish and ignorant.

What you just posted tells me you know nothing about Ron Karenga, and yes it made you look ignorant. The man was sentenced to 10 years in prison for acting out with hatred. He was schitzophrenic; he talked to his blankets & carried on conversations with a lawyer that wasn't there.

He invented a "Black Christmas" to be celebrated by ONLY African Americans because he hated white people and wanted nothing to do with non-blacks. NOW, because some people can be so stupid; Only if it were a holiday created out of hatred for black people would they understand.

It would be no different if David Duke made up the same thing and claimed it was a Welsh celebration for whites only.