NationStates Jolt Archive

Before I start, let me state that my nation is deamed a non-offensive centrist democracy, and that is essentially where I stand. I'm a swing-voter, who belongs to an obscure third-party and is not a member of either the Democrats or Republicans. I have strong political feelings, but they do not completely conform to either party.

However, I am getting quite upset that most of this board would like nothing more than to see our president's head on a pike. I'm not sure what he's done to offend you so much, but I have the feeling alot of it is because of common misconceptions that I would like to clear up.

Yes, I supported Bush, but I also supported Clinton, so don't think this is party rhetoric.

1. Bush supporters are all bible-hugging rednecks

Not true. I am a New Yorker who is very religious but owes no allegence to any church. I have not married my cousin, nor have I ever lived in the south. There are many like me.

2. Americans hate Bush

Not true for the most part. I heard that the Europeans expected Bush to lose in a landslide. From what I hear, the news that he was re-elected was a total shock.

Folks, over 60,000,000 people voted for the man, the most in the country's history, and his party actually gained seats, something unheard of in a mid-presidency election. The Republicans have power over the senate and the house. Bush-bashers may be very vocal, but they do not have the support of all of America.

3. The Patriot Act is the tool of the devil

Has anyone actually read this thing? It has been so vilianized and treated as if it were some order from Nazi high-command. Read the law, folks. It's not bad at all. It simply removed red-tape and allows orginizations to better communicate. The only people who's rights it infringes on are criminals and terrorists.

4. He wants to wipe out gay marrage!!!

News flash, people, both parties are against gay marrage. The only difference is that Bush wants a gay marrage ammendment. Personally, I think that's a stupid idea, and I disagree with the president, but none-the-less, my point remains, niether side was going to legalize gay marrage!

5. Bush is an idiot

G. W. is the only American president to have recieved a masters in buisness, and did so from Yale, a very prestigous institution.

6. Bush is a draft dodger

No, Bush served in the Texas National Guard where he recieved honors as a pilot. Yeah, daddy kept him out of the mainstream forces, why? Because he was the director of the CIA and the director's children are prohibited from active combat, since capture or death of said child would create a security risk.

7. Tax cuts for the rich!

My favorite line, I think. I'm not rich, not anywhere near it. I got my check in the mail. We all got a tax cut, the only people that didn't were those who don't pay taxes.

7a. He squandered the surplus!

Folks... If you take too much money from people, what do you do? YOU GIVE IT BACK! To say that giving back to the people what he took too much of is wrong is crazy!

8. Michael Moore represents America

No, no, no, no, no, no and no!

9. Bush wants to censor everyone!

Said by Elton John the same week that Farinhiet 9/11 was the number one pitcure in America, that the number one album had the line "Why did Bush knock down the towers?" and when there were more than two hundred Bush-bashing books on sale.

10. Bush stole the 2000 election

*Sigh... We were all alive in 2000 right? Wasn't anyone paying attention? Bush won. There was a recount. He won again. There was another recount. He won a third time. Another re-count was started in an illegal fashion by the Florida supream court, who had been re-writing election law, which it can't do, and the Federal court squished the Florida court.

11. The Iraq war was started for Halliburton!

Folks... Haliburton is one of two companies in the entire world that does what they needed to be done, and the other one is French. So, why would we not use Halliburton?

11a. Dick Chaney made a fortune on Iraq

Chaney's assets were frozen, just like Bush's. Anything done during the presidency will not affect their bottom line

12. Bush ran the economy into the ground

No, 9/11 did that. Bush on the other hand, did a fairly good job of keeping things going while the economy recovered itself. We're now out of the recession.

Alright, anymore you can think of, I'll clear them up. I'd tell you not to bash Bush here, but you won't listen anyway. All I can say is that if you insist on making baseless claims, I'm going to ignore you.

4. He wants to wipe out gay marrage!!!

News flash, people, both parties are against gay marrage. The only difference is that Bush wants a gay marrage ammendment. Personally, I think that's a stupid idea, and I disagree with the president, but none-the-less, my point remains, niether side was going to legalize gay marrage!
Kerry was against gay marriage. The entire Democratic party isn't.

Good points.

However, my reason for disliking him is quite simple.

By beginning the Iraqi conflict as part of his greater War on Terror, he dragged the UK into something we had no business being in, and I do care how my country is perceived on the world stage. Partially because it makes us look like a better target.

13. Bush lied about Iraq.
Not completely true. He had bad information given to him by the CIA. He did know that the info might be bad but that does not make it a lie. It is not a lie if he believed there were WMDs in Iraq.

Kerry was against gay marriage. The entire Democratic party isn't.

Niether is the entire Republican party, but both candidates were against it

Kerry was against gay marriage. The entire Democratic party isn't.
No, but Kerry was not the only one in the party against gay marriages. And not all of the Republicans want to ban them either.

13. Bush lied about Iraq.
Not completely true. He had bad information given to him by the CIA. He did know that the info might be bad but that does not make it a lie. It is not a lie if he believed there were WMDs in Iraq.
It's a lie when you deliberately avoid information that might contradict what you wish to be the case. Bush and others in his administration wanted a case for war and deliberately ignored anything that contradicted the case they were trying to make to the American people. That's a lie no matter how you how to get around it rhetorically. The intent was there, and the execution was there--it was a lie.

Good points.

However, my reason for disliking him is quite simple.

By beginning the Iraqi conflict as part of his greater War on Terror, he dragged the UK into something we had no business being in, and I do care how my country is perceived on the world stage. Partially because it makes us look like a better target.

The UK did the right thing. They're our allies, that's what you do for an ally.

Also, France and Germany have been hit as well. Terrorists don't care where you stand on terrorism, if they can kill you, they will

13. Bush lied about Iraq.
Not completely true. He had bad information given to him by the CIA. He did know that the info might be bad but that does not make it a lie. It is not a lie if he believed there were WMDs in Iraq.

I have no doubts that he lied, but even if he didn't it has shown to be such a huge mistake and has cost so many lives that he should have fessed up to it and resigned. Not shun his responsibility in such a dishonest way. "Operation Iraqi Freedom" - Ha! He made a mockery of you all.

half of america hates bush. The younger generation hates him by about ~70%, i forgot the exact number(as well as the article stating it).

Bush is stupid. He graduated from Yale, but with mediocre grades. His peers, when asked about bush, said that he was below average. His teachers said he was mediocre at Yale. He got in because his dad had connections.

As for Iraq, the information was faulty. However, after learning that the information was faulty, he didn't change his actions and reasserted that Iraq was a threat. You can tell me Iraq was a threat if they had WMD, but if they didn't have any, then we shouldn't have been there in the first place.

The UK did the right thing. They're our allies, that's what you do for an ally.

Also, France and Germany have been hit as well. Terrorists don't care where you stand on terrorism, if they can kill you, they will

That's what you do for an ally? Lend resources to fight unnecessary wars? Time we re-thought our position then. :p

I never said other countries weren't hit. I said our affiliation makes us a prettier target.

5. Bush is an idiot

G. W. is the only American president to have recieved a masters in buisness, and did so from Yale, a very prestigous institution.


I qoute bush : " Is our children learning." "I have my own opinions, strong opinions, i just dont always agree with them." "The vast majority of our imports come from outside the country." "They misuderestimated me." "One fifth of the world is either Iraqui or Muslim" "I can't imagine someone like Ossama Bin Ladin missing out on the joys of Hannakah." "You've heard Al Gore say he invented the internet. Well, if he was so smart, why do all the addresses begin with "W"?" "They said this issue wouldn't resignate with the People. They've been proved wrong, it does resignate." ("resonate"?!) "A surplus means there'll be money left over. Otherwise, it wouldn't be called a surplus." "I think if you know what you believe, it makes it a lot easier to
answer questions. I can't answer your question." "After standing on the stage, after the debates, I made it very plain, we will not have an all-volunteer army. And yet, this week—we will have an all-volunteer army. Let me restate that." "I'm honored to shake the hand of a brave Iraqi citizen who had his hand cut off by Saddam Hussein." "I was a prisoner too, but for bad reasons."

The first truth to come out of his mouth: "In my sentences, i go where no man has gone before."

Folks, over 60,000,000 people voted for the man, the most in the country's history, and his party actually gained seats, something unheard of in a mid-presidency election. The Republicans have power over the senate and the house. Bush-bashers may be very vocal, but they do not have the support of all of America.

Yeah, only about 48-50%.

3. The Patriot Act is the tool of the devil

Has anyone actually read this thing? It has been so vilianized and treated as if it were some order from Nazi high-command. Read the law, folks. It's not bad at all. It simply removed red-tape and allows orginizations to better communicate. The only people who's rights it infringes on are criminals and terrorists.

Apparently, you haven't. You *do* realize that it allows the government to hold people *indefinitely, **without charge** for as long as they want as long as they claim "suspicion of terrorism", right? This is a *CLEAR* violation of the 4th Amendment.

You *do* realize that it removed the "red tape" from the government tapping phones, looking at library records (thought crime, anyone?), etc. by making it so that warrants are no longer required for such activity, right? *Also* a clear violation of the 4th Amendment.

4. He wants to wipe out gay marrage!!!

News flash, people, both parties are against gay marrage. The only difference is that Bush wants a gay marrage ammendment. Personally, I think that's a stupid idea, and I disagree with the president, but none-the-less, my point remains, niether side was going to legalize gay marrage!

Both *candidates* were against gay *marriage*. However, *many* Democrats (and Independents and even some Republicans) are not opposed to it, and even those that are (including the Democratic candidates this past election) at least support *some* kind of legal equivalent.

5. Bush is an idiot

G. W. is the only American president to have recieved a masters in buisness, and did so from Yale, a very prestigous institution.

(a) Grade inflation is **huge** at Yale and Dubya barely passed.
(b) You can graduate from *any* institution if your parents are rich/influential enough.

In other words, this proves nothing. I can tell by the way Bush runs things that he should have failed history, government, economics, and theology, at the very least ((if he actually ever took any such classes)).

7. Tax cuts for the rich!

My favorite line, I think. I'm not rich, not anywhere near it. I got my check in the mail. We all got a tax cut, the only people that didn't were those who don't pay taxes.

Actually, property owners didn't get a tax cut. See, the federal government handed taxes back, but increased spending - so it pawned some money off on the states, requiring that they spend X amount on certain measures. The states don't want to raise taxes any more than the fed, so they pass the burden off to the counties. Guess who the counties get the bulk of their money from? -- Homeowners -- So basically, all Bush's "tax cuts" did was shift the burden to a smaller group. You *cannot* cut taxes without cutting spending - the money has to come from somewhere.

7a. He squandered the surplus!

Folks... If you take too much money from people, what do you do? YOU GIVE IT BACK! To say that giving back to the people what he took too much of is wrong is crazy!

Not when said people (through the government) already owe trillions of dollars.

What do *you* do when you get extra money? Do you pay off your debts, or do you go spend it on something else or hand it out to charities?

9. Bush wants to censor everyone!

Append *in science that says anything he doesn't like* and you've got a true quote.

13. Bush lied about Iraq.
Not completely true. He had bad information given to him by the CIA. He did know that the info might be bad but that does not make it a lie. It is not a lie if he believed there were WMDs in Iraq.

Bush has proven in the scientific arena that he gets rid of advisors based on whether or not he likes what he hears. ((AKA, he hires people with no standing just because they are willing to say what he wants))

I see no reason to believe that he doesn't do so in other fields as well. Therefore, the "misinformation" would be due to Bush *wanting* to hear it, and would be his fault.

Bush saw the same information we all did, and I would have sworn that hey had WMDs. And they did, actually (Although they had like... a ton of them when we were looking for about a million tons!), but we do know there were WMD programs in Iraq.

Bush saw the same information we all did, and I would have sworn that hey had WMDs. And they did, actually (Although they had like... a ton of them when we were looking for about a million tons!), but we do know there were WMD programs in Iraq.

If you honestly think that we saw all the information Bush saw, you are *incredibly* naive.

13. Bush lied about Iraq.
Not completely true. He had bad information given to him by the CIA. He did know that the info might be bad but that does not make it a lie. It is not a lie if he believed there were WMDs in Iraq.

There are confirmed reports from multiple sources that Bush wanted to invade Iraq after 9/11 even b4 he had heard the evidence to the contrary. He then said when building the case for war in Iraq that it had established links with Al-Qaeda, Anthrax, mustard gas, and ricin poison, had been training pilots to use biological weapons on people, and was related to 9/11. None of that is true. If you are going to tell me that these are all either coincidences or a series of horrible mistakes made by the most pretigious intel community in the world, then forgive me if i am highly doubtful. I would support getting rid of Saddam Hussein, but don't "hype" going into a war if you can't sell your original stance well enough. The Washington Post has broken a story of memos put forth by the new intelligence czar Porter Goss telling his agents to look for information to support the president.

Bush saw the same information we all did, and I would have sworn that hey had WMDs. And they did, actually (Although they had like... a ton of them when we were looking for about a million tons!), but we do know there were WMD programs in Iraq.

Oh, yeah. "Weapons of mass destruction related activity"!

You still have no proof, interestingly enough, since you claimed to know exactly what he was up to. And, you still haven't found WMD in Iraq - not even that ton Fox News may have fooled you into believing.

Anyone can have a WMD program. To quantify this, you need to look at the threat posed by those in charge, the quality and capabilities of their development and manufacturing aspects, likelyhood to use and so on.

Bush saw the same information we all did, and I would have sworn that hey had WMDs. And they did, actually (Although they had like... a ton of them when we were looking for about a million tons!), but we do know there were WMD programs in Iraq.
Bush saw considerably more information than we all did, and I came to the completely opposite conclusion. Am I really that much smarter than both of you?

And for the last time, there were no WMD programs in Iraq. None. Zip. Zero. Nil. Nada. Bupkus.

Actually, most people (err... Americans, I guess) thought it was better from him to invade Iraq rather than do nothing at all (they prefer action men, even bad, to reflexion men), even though it turned out horrible.

There are confirmed reports from multiple sources that Bush wanted to invade Iraq after 9/11 even b4 he had heard the evidence to the contrary. He then said when building the case for war in Iraq that it had established links with Al-Qaeda, Anthrax, mustard gas, and ricin poison, had been training pilots to use biological weapons on people, and was related to 9/11. None of that is true. If you are going to tell me that these are all either coincidences or a series of horrible mistakes made by the most pretigious intel community in the world, then forgive me if i am highly doubtful. I would support getting rid of Saddam Hussein, but don't "hype" going into a war if you can't sell your original stance well enough. The Washington Post has broken a story of memos put forth by the new intelligence czar Porter Goss telling his agents to look for information to support the president.
You are right. The CIA is the greatest intelligence servici in the world and they are not undergoing an overhaul at the moment. The have not been making several mistakes in the last few years. Those were only coincidneces.

If Bush believed that Iraq had links to Al-Qaeda and that Iraq had those programs running, even if it were not true, he did not lie.

It was very ignorant and should not have been done until better information came forth, but it was not lying.

Before I start: I must state my nation is Democratic Socialists right now... strange I used to be unoffensuve centralist...

I'm a Democrat. Not fully a Liberal, I'm not anti-religious since I have one. Republicans just haven't been as good in weighing their actions policy-wise.
But Enough of that: Now I tackle this guy's questions.

Before I start, let me state that my nation is deamed a non-offensive centrist democracy, and that is essentially where I stand. I'm a swing-voter, who belongs to an obscure third-party and is not a member of either the Democrats or Republicans. I have strong political feelings, but they do not completely conform to either party.

However, I am getting quite upset that most of this board would like nothing more than to see our president's head on a pike. I'm not sure what he's done to offend you so much, but I have the feeling alot of it is because of common misconceptions that I would like to clear up.

Yes, I supported Bush, but I also supported Clinton, so don't think this is party rhetoric.

1. Bush supporters are all bible-hugging rednecks

Not true. I am a New Yorker who is very religious but owes no allegence to any church. I have not married my cousin, nor have I ever lived in the south. There are many like me.

2. Americans hate Bush

Not true for the most part. I heard that the Europeans expected Bush to lose in a landslide. From what I hear, the news that he was re-elected was a total shock.

Folks, over 60,000,000 people voted for the man, the most in the country's history, and his party actually gained seats, something unheard of in a mid-presidency election. The Republicans have power over the senate and the house. Bush-bashers may be very vocal, but they do not have the support of all of America.

3. The Patriot Act is the tool of the devil

Has anyone actually read this thing? It has been so vilianized and treated as if it were some order from Nazi high-command. Read the law, folks. It's not bad at all. It simply removed red-tape and allows orginizations to better communicate. The only people who's rights it infringes on are criminals and terrorists.

4. He wants to wipe out gay marrage!!!

News flash, people, both parties are against gay marrage. The only difference is that Bush wants a gay marrage ammendment. Personally, I think that's a stupid idea, and I disagree with the president, but none-the-less, my point remains, niether side was going to legalize gay marrage!

5. Bush is an idiot

G. W. is the only American president to have recieved a masters in buisness, and did so from Yale, a very prestigous institution.

6. Bush is a draft dodger

No, Bush served in the Texas National Guard where he recieved honors as a pilot. Yeah, daddy kept him out of the mainstream forces, why? Because he was the director of the CIA and the director's children are prohibited from active combat, since capture or death of said child would create a security risk.

7. Tax cuts for the rich!

My favorite line, I think. I'm not rich, not anywhere near it. I got my check in the mail. We all got a tax cut, the only people that didn't were those who don't pay taxes.

7a. He squandered the surplus!

Folks... If you take too much money from people, what do you do? YOU GIVE IT BACK! To say that giving back to the people what he took too much of is wrong is crazy!

8. Michael Moore represents America

No, no, no, no, no, no and no!

9. Bush wants to censor everyone!

Said by Elton John the same week that Farinhiet 9/11 was the number one pitcure in America, that the number one album had the line "Why did Bush knock down the towers?" and when there were more than two hundred Bush-bashing books on sale.

10. Bush stole the 2000 election

*Sigh... We were all alive in 2000 right? Wasn't anyone paying attention? Bush won. There was a recount. He won again. There was another recount. He won a third time. Another re-count was started in an illegal fashion by the Florida supream court, who had been re-writing election law, which it can't do, and the Federal court squished the Florida court.

11. The Iraq war was started for Halliburton!

Folks... Haliburton is one of two companies in the entire world that does what they needed to be done, and the other one is French. So, why would we not use Halliburton?

11a. Dick Chaney made a fortune on Iraq

Chaney's assets were frozen, just like Bush's. Anything done during the presidency will not affect their bottom line

12. Bush ran the economy into the ground

No, 9/11 did that. Bush on the other hand, did a fairly good job of keeping things going while the economy recovered itself. We're now out of the recession.

Alright, anymore you can think of, I'll clear them up. I'd tell you not to bash Bush here, but you won't listen anyway. All I can say is that if you insist on making baseless claims, I'm going to ignore you.
First, you numbered wtrong. You can't do a 7a. without a 7b. You should just make another number as I have.


1. Bush supporters are all bible-hugging rednecks

There are Bible-hugging Rednecks that support Bush. My Stepdad is one so I know its true. But you probably meaning that most are not?
I'll granted that about half of Bush voters are in the military and they vote republican 2/3rds of time.
So 50% Military, 20% Rednecks, and maybe 20% Christian/Religious. Leaving about 10% split between undecided and those who chose one value like Security over economy or something.
Now there are Redneck Military Christians, but The major reason for each is in the Percentage.

2. Americans hate Bush

I agree most Americans do not hate Bush. We just don't like most of what he has done. Some voted for him anyway like the Libertarians because they didn't trust Kerry(to be President) or Badnik(to win). I dislike his policies; I don't hate the guy.

3. The Patriot Act is the tool of the devil

I've read it. It is almost as bad as what is said about it. So yes people have a right to fear it.

4. He wants to wipe out gay marrage!!!

He does want to wipe it out. The democrats wanted to make Civil Unions legal, but Bush won't allow them. He is also taking the power out of states and making marriage a federal issue. I thought Republicvans were about State rights; and Govt out of State?

5. Bush is an idiot

He isn't very smart after the Cocaine usage. Listen to Bush after passing those things and he speaks beautifully. But now he isn't smart at all. Or at least to use a quote," Stupid is as Stupid does." So if he acts stupid its okay to call him that way. Some of his actions seemed stupid to people.

6. Bush is a draft dodger

Bush did go AWOL at some point of his carreer. The Military decided not to look for him, and its possible his Father pulled strings so they did not.

7. Tax cuts for the rich!

The Rich pay more taxes because they make more. Its Progressive that way. So the Tax cuts were leaned toward the Rich. Thus the words, " Tax Cuts directed toward the rich."

8. He squandered the surplus!

It was a Social Security Surplus. Social Security was well-funded till way past what it is now. But Bush decided to give away that to make people like him.

9. Michael Moore represents America

Huh? I'm lost...who said that?

10. Bush wants to censor everyone!

No, he just wants to censor the democrat. Micheal Moore isn't a democrat. He is a LIberal. There is a difference: one does not mean you must be the other.

11. Bush stole the 2000 election

Florida records show it was entirely possible. Actually a Statewide recount says Gore won. But according to the ruling that would have offended Bush and he wouldn't like that. Seriously its hilarious.

11. The Iraq war was started for Halliburton!

No but the profits sure look good. I'd allow a bid and see who wins. If Halliburton still wins: guess what no more fuss! But we didn't do that because Bush decided to let his bias get in way of the troops.

12. Dick Chaney made a fortune on Iraq

He still gets interest added from those stocks. Also he has stock options. And yes their stocks were affected by the Presidency.

13. Bush ran the economy into the ground

Sorry those tax cuts took money and made us have a deficiet. And 9/11 didn't affect things as badly as Bush's policies.


There I shown how most of your statements were false; happy

Bush saw considerably more information than we all did, and I came to the completely opposite conclusion. Am I really that much smarter than both of you?

And for the last time, there were no WMD programs in Iraq. None. Zip. Zero. Nil. Nada. Bupkus.
He he came to the opposite conclusion, then he was not lying. The information was horrible and the war should never have happened. If he believed in the programs existing and that there were ties to bin Laden, then he did not lie.

He he came to the opposite conclusion, then he was not lying. The information was horrible and the war should never have happened. If he believed in the programs existing and that there were ties to bin Laden, then he did not lie.

Of course, he most likely believed that *because* he wanted to go to war and wouldn't listen to anything else. Therefore, lying or not, it is still his fault.

Of course, he most likely believed that *because* he wanted to go to war and wouldn't listen to anything else. Therefore, lying or not, it is still his fault.
Didn't say it wasn't. In fact, I think the war is the worst thing to happen in a while. I just wanted to clear up the misconception that he lied.

Hey. Bush's a man, just like every other man around. Perhaps he's even a woman! Why not, after all?

Didn't say it wasn't. In fact, I think the war is the worst thing to happen in a while. I just wanted to clear up the misconception that he lied.

There is *very* little difference between ignoring all evidence that doesn't say what you want and straight out lying.

It amounts to saying "Don't tell me that! I want to be able to say what I want to say without lying!"

There is *very* little difference between ignoring all evidence that doesn't say what you want and straight out lying.

It amounts to saying "Don't tell me that! I want to be able to say what I want to say without lying!"
Basically He means Bush is Dishonest, but not a liar or something?

Basically He means Bush is Dishonest, but not a liar or something?
Basically. I like to make sure everyone has their definitions right.

He he came to the opposite conclusion, then he was not lying. The information was horrible and the war should never have happened. If he believed in the programs existing and that there were ties to bin Laden, then he did not lie.
Answer my last statement as to why it was a lie. Here's the short form: deliberate ignorance still constitutes lying.

Bush saw considerably more information than we all did, and I came to the completely opposite conclusion. Am I really that much smarter than both of you?

And for the last time, there were no WMD programs in Iraq. None. Zip. Zero. Nil. Nada. Bupkus.
Is this the last statement you are referring to?

Hmm, I guess if Bush saw more information than us (information we have never seen), then he must have lied to us. It is quite possible that the info he saw showed that it was more likely that Iraq had WMDs. That could be why he got a differnet conclusion than you did. The actions he took were bad and we all regret them. He should have listened to some of his advisers and believed the info might not be correct. How is that lying? But I guess you really were the genious in the end.

Anyone can have a WMD program. To quantify this, you need to look at the threat posed by those in charge, the quality and capabilities of their development and manufacturing aspects, likelyhood to use and so on.

i just like ur Halo 2 signature, good stuff

*Sigh... Bush never went AWOL. He got his points done quickly in his final year and left early to work on the Republican Convention.

half of america hates bush. The younger generation hates him by about ~70%, i forgot the exact number(as well as the article stating it).

Bush is stupid. He graduated from Yale, but with mediocre grades. His peers, when asked about bush, said that he was below average. His teachers said he was mediocre at Yale. He got in because his dad had connections.

As for Iraq, the information was faulty. However, after learning that the information was faulty, he didn't change his actions and reasserted that Iraq was a threat. You can tell me Iraq was a threat if they had WMD, but if they didn't have any, then we shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Seeing as I am in the younger generation, I might want to fill you in. At least in my area, when it comes to higher end students most of them supported Bush. Now two of the smartest kids i know supported Kerry. But there are far more kids that should have been held back grades that support kerry. But they mainly support kerry just because ma and pa said bush was evil. When the majority of my psych class were really pissed about the results of the election, they also could not think of a cause and effect relationship.

The Iraq war is hard to justify. I just point at all the UN resolutions. League of Nations failed because A) US wasn't in it and B) they would not enforce any legislation made. Hopefully the UN won't follow the same path.

Yale is still Yale. A mediocre student at yale is more valuable than the brightest community college graduate. I have roughly a B in all of my AP classes, does not mean the kids in remedial classes with A's are smarter than me.

The Patriot Act is the tool of the devil
Has anyone actually read this thing?...It's not bad at all. It simply removed red-tape and allows orginizations to better communicate. The only people who's rights it infringes on are criminals and terrorists.
Apparently you haven't, or at least haven't considered that fact that a strict interpretation makes any American fair game for detention without trial or other recourse. This is a bad thing, even though they haven't abused it that much yet. But situations like the recent "Homeland security" raid of a toy store that had been mistakenly accused of selling counterfeit Rubik's Cubes will become more common. This doesn't mean that the act was written to facilitate a police state, but it breaks down important legal barriers that inevitably lead to abuses because humans are what we are...and when given total power over others, we tend to be s#1+heads.

4. He wants to wipe out gay marrage!!!
You're right...this one really bugged me - Bush and Kerry had identical stands on gay marriage, and the whole thing is absurd. It is simply no business of the state. If some church wants to refuse to marry anyone but redhaired Capricorns, that's their right. On the other hand, if the state is setting up special breaks for people who join together to make a family, everyone deserves equal access to that benefit, not just SOME kinds of family.

Bush is a draft dodger
You pretty much defined draft dodging there, and your excuse of the CIA link is very original...even Karl Rove hasn't tried that dodge.

But this is another one the Dems were silly about...of COURSE you are going to take advantage of your family ties not to be sent off to a senseless war that has nothing to do with our safety! Bush did what anyone would do in that case, though the attempted lies later are pretty undignified of him

Bush served in the Texas National Guard where he recieved honors as a pilot.
You are referring to when they stripped him of his pilot status for skipping out on a medical exam which would have included drug tests?

He squandered the surplus!
Folks... If you take too much money from people, what do you do? YOU GIVE IT BACK!
That would be true if there WAS a surplus, but actually the U.S. (thanks to both parties) carries so much debt that if the Asians called in their loans tomorrow you would be begging for food at the Canadian border next week.

That money should have been used to pay our debt, or better yet to finance the destruction of the Fed and reform of our out of control borrowing - borrowing which would make a communist blush and which Bush has taken to record levels, a betrayal of common sense and conservatism.

Bush stole the 2000 election
There was a recount. He won again. There was another recount. He won a third time.
Actually, there was a partial recount. When Gore pulled even and would have likely gone over the top due to the miami count, paid republican operatives who flew in on an Enron-owned airplane staged a riot, attacking officials and even police (it was on tv, but they were pretending to be 'outraged voters'...they weren't even Floridians and some now serve in the Bush administration) to stop the count. The court then decided the election. I'm not saying Bush didn't/shouldn't have won, necessarily, but what you say here is a fairy tale.

11. The Iraq war was started for Halliburton!
Folks... Haliburton is one of two companies in the entire world that does what they needed to be done, and the other one is French. So, why would we not use Halliburton?
In other words, they were one of two entities in the world with something to gain from such a war?

You can see the entire blueprint for the Iraq war here -http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm
The documents were written in the 90s by none other than Cheney, Wolfowitz, and the rest of Bush's chickenhawk contingent. That war and what will follow was planned long before 911, and by the very people who profit from such things.

11a. Dick Chaney made a fortune on Iraq
Chaney's assets were frozen, just like Bush's. Anything done during the presidency will not affect their bottom line
Where do you get this? "Frozen"? Their assets are not "frozen" and Cheney is still getting money from Halliburton. The Bush family, busted repeatedly in the 30s and 40s for financing the Nazis, are chest-deep in war profiteering, and to pretend this doesn't play a part in their decisions is...adorable.

I have to agree that some of the accusations leveled toward Bush are unfair, but you picked some pretty indefensible points.

BTW I'm not a Democrat or Kerry fan, though I though he'd be less horrible than Bush.

Is this the last statement you are referring to?

Hmm, I guess if Bush saw more information than us (information we have never seen), then he must have lied to us. It is quite possible that the info he saw showed that it was more likely that Iraq had WMDs. That could be why he got a differnet conclusion than you did. The actions he took were bad and we all regret them. He should have listened to some of his advisers and believed the info might not be correct. How is that lying? But I guess you really were the genious in the end.
Actually, this was the statement I was referring to--my original reply to your first post on this subject.
It's a lie when you deliberately avoid information that might contradict what you wish to be the case. Bush and others in his administration wanted a case for war and deliberately ignored anything that contradicted the case they were trying to make to the American people. That's a lie no matter how you how to get around it rhetorically. The intent was there, and the execution was there--it was a lie.
My argument is that Bush wanted only intel that proved Iraq had WMD programs and wanted any evidence to the contrary suppressed. Deliberately keeping yourself in the dark so you can tell a falsehood and still not be caught in it is still lying, no matter how you slice it.

And it didn't take a genius to realize that Saddam probably didn't have WMD programs. We'd decimated him in 1991 and UN weapons inspectors had destroyed tons upon tons of stockpiles in the years after that. In 1998, when he kicked inspectors out, we bombed and cruise-missiled the shit out of him, and we tightened the embargo. We continued bombing him for no-fly zone infractions for the next four years after that, and if we didn't have satellite recon all over the place, then I'll eat my hat. Not even Colin Powell thought Hussein had any ability to project power outside his own country in 2001--how the hell could Hussein have gone from chump to champ in less than a year? Simple answer--it's not bloody likely that he did, and when you factor in the neo-cons' Iraq bloodlust along with a healthy dose of "I want to revenge my daddy," you can easily come to the conclusion that Bush might have been overselling an already weak case.

And by the way--who are you referring to when you say "the actions he [Bush] were bad and we all regret them"? Because you certainly aren't talking about Bush or his advisers or many of the people on this board who think Bush is the greatest thing since canned beer.

1. Bush supporters are all bible-hugging rednecks

Not true. I am a New Yorker who is very religious but owes no allegence to any church. I have not married my cousin, nor have I ever lived in the south. There are many like me.


Sweet- I thought I was the only conservative in New York.

I wait, you aren't a conservative.

Still, you are a clear thinker and you support the President. I'll take it.

I wait, you aren't a conservative

Neither is Bush. Conservatives are fiscally responsible, they hesitate to intervene internationally, they don't create enormous bureaucracies, and they believe in the right of individuals to autonomy and privacy.

Can't we just agree that both candidates were aweful?

Neither is Bush. Conservatives are fiscally responsible, they hesitate to intervene internationally, they don't create enormous bureaucracies, and they believe in the right of individuals to autonomy and privacy.

Yeah, Bush is far from a conservative. He's the epitomy of stupidity, which is why most Americans can associate with him. :p

Neither is Bush. Conservatives are fiscally responsible, they hesitate to intervene internationally, they don't create enormous bureaucracies, and they believe in the right of individuals to autonomy and privacy.

You're thinking of paleocons, I believe. See also nativists, isolationists, Pat Buchanan, Bob Dole, religious nutfudges, the reason liberals owned this country from the Roosevelt administration to the Reagan administration.

Bush is a neocon- the future of the party and the future of the country.

If I may be excused for a shameless plug- here (clicky (http://chainik_hocker.blogspot.com/2004/12/chainik-hocker-reads-entrails-yuck-he.html) I explain why I think the Republican Party will split between paleo- and neocons. It may help to think of them as Red State Republicans and Blue State Republicans.

Again, I apoligize for the shameless plug.

Can't we just agree that both candidates were aweful?

Yes. Yes, we can. Although I'm not complaining too loudly- my guy won.

I really really hate voting for the lesser of two evils.

Can't we just agree that both candidates were aweful?

Well, I will agree that a bag of rocks would likely have beaten Kerry.

Did anyone actually vote FOR him and not against Bush?

yes, i was for Kerry, but both canidates were bad. I just couldnt vote for someone as dumb as bush.

Well, I will agree that a bag of rocks would likely have beaten Kerry.

Did anyone actually vote FOR him and not against Bush?
I did. Why is it so hard for you to believe some of us care about who we vote for?

I have no doubts that he lied, but even if he didn't it has shown to be such a huge mistake and has cost so many lives that he should have fessed up to it and resigned. Not shun his responsibility in such a dishonest way. "Operation Iraqi Freedom" - Ha! He made a mockery of you all.

and what would you have him do?!!!!! not a d*** thing and let those sand monkeys bring the fight on the home front of american siol??? perhaps another round of "crash the planes" would satisfy your nads!!!! the man has a degree from YALE for cryin' out loud and if you think that you could have done a better job i propose you grow some!!!!! no my dear sweedy pants you have made a mockery of yourself!! (truth hurts :) )

Anyone can have a WMD program. To quantify this, you need to look at the threat posed by those in charge, the quality and capabilities of their development and manufacturing aspects, likelyhood to use and so on.

:eek: Somebody else actually thinks like this. I honestly thought I was the only one for a while.

and what would you have him do?!!!!! not a d*** thing and let those sand monkeys bring the fight on the home front of american siol??? perhaps another round of "crash the planes" would satisfy your nads!!!! the man has a degree from YALE for cryin' out loud and if you think that you could have done a better job i propose you grow some!!!!! no my dear sweedy pants you have made a mockery of yourself!! (truth hurts :) )
Iraq never would have have sent troops to America soil.

If you are talking about Afganistan, few are disagreeing with you.

Please chose which you mean. Iraq never attacked america soil. And there are many so called "sand monkeys" living in the US so they are already here. So Bush failed if he was supposed to keep them out.

Yale is still Yale. A mediocre student at yale is more valuable than the brightest community college graduate.

Yale has horrible grade inflation, so it is entirely likely that a community college graduate worked much harder and took more difficult coursework for his grade than someone from Yale.

So, while Yale is a big name and people like it, someone who goes to a school that isn't afraid to fail you is going to have a much better education than a school like Yale, which passes people through to try and look good.

I have roughly a B in all of my AP classes, does not mean the kids in remedial classes with A's are smarter than me.

Suppose you were taking an AP class at one school, and someone else was taking the same class at another. Now suppose that your teacher gave you the grade you earned, while the other teacher gave lots of A's and B's to make her class look good. That other school is Yale.

Yale has horrible grade inflation, so it is entirely likely that a community college graduate worked much harder and took more difficult coursework for his grade than someone from Yale.

So, while Yale is a big name and people like it, someone who goes to a school that isn't afraid to fail you is going to have a much better education than a school like Yale, which passes people through to try and look good.



Suppose you were taking an AP class at one school, and someone else was taking the same class at another. Now suppose that your teacher gave you the grade you earned, while the other teacher gave lots of A's and B's to make her class look good. That other school is Yale.


Bingo.

Prestige != quality.

the man has a degree from YALE for cryin' out loud and if you think that you could have done a better job i propose you grow some!!!!! no my dear sweedy pants you have made a mockery of yourself!! (truth hurts :) )

I love this worship of Ivy League schools. You know what gets you into Yale? -- Connections.

You know what gets you through Yale? -- being there The profs give out A's like candy at Yale (ok, so this is a bit of an exaggeration - but you get the point) - in order to perpetuate the myth that those who go there are actually better students than any other school. In truth, a student with a 2.5 from GATech or a similar school probably worked harder and took harder courses than someone with a 4.0 from Yale.

I heard that the Europeans expected Bush to lose in a landslide.
Actually most of us hoped Kerry would win. Not me though. Bush is good for the Anti American sentiment here. But most people I spoke to either didn't care or expected Bush would win eventhough they hoped he wouldn't.




4. He wants to wipe out gay marrage!!!

News flash, people, both parties are against gay marrage. The only difference is that Bush wants a gay marrage ammendment. Personally, I think that's a stupid idea, and I disagree with the president, but none-the-less, my point remains, niether side was going to legalize gay marrage!
You can't wipe something out that doesn't exist to begin with. He wants to abort it before it's born.

5. Bush is an idiot

G. W. is the only American president to have recieved a masters in buisness, and did so from Yale, a very prestigous institution.
Bush is an idiot. My personal favorit quote of his beeing: The problem with the French is they don't even have a word for entrepeneur.
And apparently his supporters aren't much better if they don't know he got his MBA from Harvard. Not Yale. :rolleyes:

12. Bush ran the economy into the ground

No, 9/11 did that. Bush on the other hand, did a fairly good job of keeping things going while the economy recovered itself. We're now out of the recession.
With a new record trade deficit in the last quarter. :D All together a bit over 500 billion dollars over the past 10 months. :D :D :D