NationStates Jolt Archive

Many people find the idea that Christians take offence at the waxwork of the nativity in Maddame Tusards laughable and talk of freedom of expression and rights not to be offended being overseen by the right to offend and that Christians need to "lighten up". But if something simmilar was done to Islam, would people be so relaxed. Or would we be hearing cries of racisim and the centre complaining at what the far right are doing. What about for example the comment someone made about the idea that Allah would have taken one of the Miss world finalists as a wife and then Muslims were attacking their hotel. Did anyone ask those Muslims to "lighten up"? I doubt it.

Many people find the idea that Christians take offence at the waxwork of the nativity in Maddame Tusards laughable and talk of freedom of expression and rights not to be offended being overseen by the right to offend and that Christians need to "lighten up". But if something simmilar was done to Islam, would people be so relaxed. Or would we be hearing cries of racisim and the centre complaining at what the far right are doing. What about for example the comment someone made about the idea that Allah would have taken one of the Miss world finalists as a wife and then Muslims were attacking their hotel. Did anyone ask those Muslims to "lighten up"? I doubt it.
There would have been jihads declared. There would have been outrage in the media, and multiple talking heads pointing out how racist and demeaning it is. It would have been labled a hate crime.

Dude, what's laughable is the waxwork, not the reaction of christians. I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

There would have been jihads declared. There would have been outrage in the media, and multiple talking heads pointing out how racist and demeaning it is. It would have been labled a hate crime.

Precisely. So I think Christians can be excused for being angry. In this respect many Muslims can be seen to be far more agressive and hateful than Christainity. And the media can be said to have turned to favour them unfairly.

It's all about positions of power and influence in a particular society, where the satire is coming from etc.
I mean, this is a UK, a country with a Judaeo-Christian background, aren't they allowed to mock THEMSELVES once in a while.
It's like that whole "why are black people allowed to use the word '******?' "
issue.
Pointless...

It's all about positions of power and influence in a particular society, where the satire is coming from etc.
I mean, this is a UK, a country with a Judaeo-Christian background, aren't they allowed to mock THEMSELVES once in a while.
It's like that whole "why are black people allowed to use the word '******?' "
issue.
Pointless...

By your logic (that people can mock themselves but not others) is not therefore a place for the equal treeting of others. If that is the case, how do you reconsile that with Muslim nations refusal to treet Christians as equals in their countries?

By your logic (that people can mock themselves but not others) is not therefore a place for the equal treeting of others. If that is the case, how do you reconsile that with Muslim nations refusal to treet Christians as equals in their countries?
Well obviously, being the logical person that I am, I disagree with that.
HOWEVER I think your Christianity vs Islam view which seems to come across here is EXTREMELY unproductive. Besides, organised religion is a waste of time and a tool for division. ;)

Precisely. So I think Christians can be excused for being angry. In this respect many Muslims can be seen to be far more agressive and hateful than Christainity. And the media can be said to have turned to favour them unfairly.

I'll give you a little example from way back before 9/11. I went on a school trip to all of my local places of worship once. We visited mosques, synagogues, churches, baptist halls, etc. However, all the kids especially liked the mosque as we were all given drinks and biscuits - muslims have to be hospitable to visitors according to their religion.

A couple of years later (after 9/11) I heard that many parents had refused to allow their children on the trip, because "muslims are terrorists".

That sounds a bit crap now I've written it down, oh well.

I think we all need to lighten up a bit

Many people find the idea that Christians take offence at the waxwork of the nativity in Maddame Tusards laughable and talk of freedom of expression and rights not to be offended being overseen by the right to offend and that Christians need to "lighten up". But if something simmilar was done to Islam, would people be so relaxed. Or would we be hearing cries of racisim and the centre complaining at what the far right are doing. What about for example the comment someone made about the idea that Allah would have taken one of the Miss world finalists as a wife and then Muslims were attacking their hotel. Did anyone ask those Muslims to "lighten up"? I doubt it.

It's funny how liberals always wail about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc. They claim to be strongly against racism, but if it's directed against whites or Christians, they have no problem with it. All types of prejudices are wrong, a fact that seems to elude them.

I think we all need to lighten up a bit

*does a little happy dance*

:D

HOWEVER I think your Christianity vs Islam view which seems to come across here is EXTREMELY unproductive. Besides, organised religion is a waste of time and a tool for division. ;)

I dont have a Christianity Vs Islam view. I am simpley stateing what would apper to be the case given the evidence. I believe however that if you are going to have equality then it should not favour the minority and offend the majority.

It's funny how liberals always wail about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc. They claim to be strongly against racism, but if it's directed against whites or Christians, they have no problem with it. All types of prejudices are wrong, a fact that seems to elude them.

Here here!

It's funny how liberals always wail about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc. They claim to be strongly against racism, but if it's directed against whites or Christians, they have no problem with it. All types of prejudices are wrong, a fact that seems to elude them.
It's funny how conservatives always forget that intolerance is much more loaded when it's direct from the historical oppressor to the person who has been traditionally oppressed.
I agree that ALL intolerance is wrong, it's just that much more potent from say awhite person to a black person if you take historical context and even current social standings into account.

I'll give you a little example from way back before 9/11. I went on a school trip to all of my local places of worship once. We visited mosques, synagogues, churches, baptist halls, etc. However, all the kids especially liked the mosque as we were all given drinks and biscuits - muslims have to be hospitable to visitors according to their religion.

A couple of years later (after 9/11) I heard that many parents had refused to allow their children on the trip, because "muslims are terrorists".

That sounds a bit crap now I've written it down, oh well.

I said "many Muslims" not "Islam" or "All Muslims". It would seem that "Many" Muslims are far more vilonet and hateful when it comes to any kind of offence to them.

It's funny how liberals always wail about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc. They claim to be strongly against racism, but if it's directed against whites or Christians, they have no problem with it. All types of prejudices are wrong, a fact that seems to elude them.
Speak the truth, my man.

It's funny how liberals always wail about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc. They claim to be strongly against racism, but if it's directed against whites or Christians, they have no problem with it. All types of prejudices are wrong, a fact that seems to elude them.
Keep in mind that the original posters' idea was a hypothetical situation. I think that most liberals do not apply double sandards like that. I think the only ones who think like that are loud PC reactionaries.

Roach, don't fall victim to the conservative myth that Christians are persecuted. They're not.

A couple of years later (after 9/11) I heard that many parents had refused to allow their children on the trip, because "muslims are terrorists".
Where the hell do you live?

I dont have a Christianity Vs Islam view. I am simpley stateing what would apper to be the case given the evidence. I believe however that if you are going to have equality then it should not favour the minority and offend the majority.

Everyone agrees that the Madame Tussauds statue is dumb, okay?

I do think that everyone should be treated fairly and that nobody should be favoured because of their religion. However, I do think that your view of Islam is slightly skewed.

It's funny how liberals always wail about freedom of speech, tolerance, etc. They claim to be strongly against racism, but if it's directed against whites or Christians, they have no problem with it. All types of prejudices are wrong, a fact that seems to elude them.

Its funny how people like Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh claim to be Christians. And yet they hate anyone who isn't exactly the same as they are. Yup, those are some good Christians there, yessiree.

Where the hell do you live?

Devon. It's in England.

Keep in mind that the original posters' idea was a hypothetical situation. I think that most liberals do not apply double sandards like that. I think the only ones who think like that are loud PC reactionaries.

Roach, don't fall victim to the conservative myth that Christians are persecuted. They're not.


Where the hell do you live?

Agreed, most liberals don't, but as you said, the PC reactionaries sure do.

And I never said Christians were persecuted.

Its funny how people like Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh claim to be Christians. And yet they hate anyone who isn't exactly the same as they are. Yup, those are some good Christians there, yessiree.

As I said, all types of prejudice are wrong. Which is why I can't stand either of those two bastards.

It's funny how conservatives always forget that intolerance is much more loaded when it's direct from the historical oppressor to the person who has been traditionally oppressed.
I agree that ALL intolerance is wrong, it's just that much more potent from say awhite person to a black person if you take historical context and even current social standings into account.

Intollernce is not "Loaded" with anything. Intollerence is intolleracne. Its funny how so many liberals complain about "Institutional racisim" and the idea that the police is full of racist even though the force itself is not racist in its outward apperence but forget that in Saudi Arabia there is ACTIVE racism in terms of the removal of religious freedoms. The muttawa are a police force in Saudi Arabia that specificly tries to route out non Islamic worship. Any Muslims converting in Saudi Arabia can be subjected to a death sentence. Complain about that intollerence before institutional racisim.

The muttawa are a police force in Saudi Arabia that specificly tries to route out non Islamic worship. Any Muslims converting in Saudi Arabia can be subjected to a death sentence. Complain about that intollerence before institutional racisim.
To be fair, I have hardly ever heard people in the West, least of all liberals, say anything positive about Saudi Arabia.

To be fair, I have hardly ever heard people in the West, least of all liberals, say anything positive about Saudi Arabia.

But they are quite happy to harras the Metropolitan police commisoner all the time about every little slightest charge of racisim.

What if the Maddame Tusaurds waxwork had been a parody of something from the Qu'ran?

You do know that the nativity of Jesus does appear in the Koran, yes?

You do know that the nativity of Jesus does appear in the Koran, yes?

WTH? Where?

Many people find the idea that Christians take offence at the waxwork of the nativity in Maddame Tusards laughable and talk of freedom of expression and rights not to be offended being overseen by the right to offend and that Christians need to "lighten up". But if something simmilar was done to Islam, would people be so relaxed. Or would we be hearing cries of racisim and the centre complaining at what the far right are doing. What about for example the comment someone made about the idea that Allah would have taken one of the Miss world finalists as a wife and then Muslims were attacking their hotel. Did anyone ask those Muslims to "lighten up"? I doubt it.

I'm pretty sure that someone did ask exactly that.

Christians have every right to be offended by the waxwork. Hell, I'm kind of offended, although from what I can tell they at least left the baby Jesus as just an average waxwork baby.

**However, Christians have no right to in any way ban the waxwork, as it is the private property of the museum, and anyone who doesn't want to see it, doesn't have to.**

If it were something depicting a Muslim idea in the same manner (which, btw, would most likely be completely against their religion, regardless of how Allah, etc. was portrayed), I would say the same thing. They would have every right to be offended, and the museum would have every right to keep displaying it.

That is all.

WTH? Where?

A somewhat different narrative, but the nativity of Jesus, none the less.

http://www.christmasarchives.com/quran.html

You seem somewhat surprised. You haven't fallen for that old chestnut from the crusades about the Muslims not believing in Jesus, have you?

But they are quite happy to harras the Metropolitan police commisoner all the time about every little slightest charge of racisim.

Well, you said that the only equality we can have is legal equality.

And none of us have any legal rights to change the govnerment of Saudi Arabia. All we can really do is use words, which you have said you detest.

However, we *do* have legal rights to make sure that our *own* police force enforces the laws properly.

So what if instead of being a wax work a group of celebs got together and decided to make a short film, or a movie about the nativity. Or how about childrens school plays on the nativity. You know, the ones where the class fat kid is playing a wise man and picks his nose on stage. Not offensive?
People are complaining about it because people will always complain about something, this is just the target of the week.
When Mel Gibson's 'Passion of the Christ ' came out some christian and jewish groups were screaming that it was prejudiced and anti-semetic. Yet more people have found it to be such a moving film that they started going back to church for the first time in years. Attendance numbers were higher in some areas then they ever had been.
The point is that every representation of a religious scene is going to draw fire from someone sometime. Whether its serious like the Passion, or satire like the wax work.

The reason people don't mock the Qu'ran and use it for satire is because they don't know it or understand it in western society. Everyone knows the nativity scene though.

Or how about childrens school plays on the nativity. You know, the ones where the class fat kid is playing a wise man and picks his nose on stage. Not offensive?

Are you implying that the Magi could never have been overweight or ever picked their nose?

Are you implying that the Magi could never have been overweight or ever picked their nose?

Not at all. I am saying however that a nose picking fat guy is not how any of the magi are traditionally shown. Classical art and other biblical works show them as being highly respectable.
Some of the people who find the waxwork to be offensive are also those who would be offended by the actions of a said child in the school play. Where as the rest of us wouldn't think much of it other then I hope he didn't eat it.

I have no doubt that each of the magi pciked their noses at one time or another. Why? Because they were humans and humans do gross things sometimes, even if its only as kids.

Precisely. So I think Christians can be excused for being angry. In this respect many Muslims can be seen to be far more agressive and hateful than Christainity. And the media can be said to have turned to favour them unfairly.
Actually both groups need to get rid of the stick up their ass and lighten up.

Religion, for the most part, is a choice.

Choices can be made fun of without regret.

Race is another matter. People don't have a choice about their race.

That said, its all legal, and should be so. If some jackass KKK folk want to have a "Black Face" wax museum, fine. I won't get within a hundred miles of it, but it's not my business unless the government is paying them. Hell, if someone wants to take a stereotype of people like me, and make an insulting statue about it, fine.

The wax museum of anonymous atheists who play D&D, cuddle with bisexual women, hang out on NS boards, and have a mullet, being humped by rabid, automated camels, isn't going to get more than a snicker from me.

But then, I'm an adult.

Many people find the idea that Christians take offence at the waxwork of the nativity in Maddame Tusards laughable and talk of freedom of expression and rights not to be offended being overseen by the right to offend and that Christians need to "lighten up". But if something simmilar was done to Islam, would people be so relaxed. Or would we be hearing cries of racisim and the centre complaining at what the far right are doing. What about for example the comment someone made about the idea that Allah would have taken one of the Miss world finalists as a wife and then Muslims were attacking their hotel. Did anyone ask those Muslims to "lighten up"? I doubt it.

What I don't get, is why Xtians are getting all bent out of shape, anyway.

So - someone created a waxwork that depicts historical characters (that nobody currently alive can describe - how many people have actually SEEN any of the people mentioned?) and given them current 'faces', so that a new generation can find some kind of identity with which they identify.

It's pop-art, and it's for entertainment, and it facilitates learning... what is there to object to?

Intollernce is not "Loaded" with anything. Intollerence is intolleracne. Its funny how so many liberals complain about "Institutional racisim" and the idea that the police is full of racist even though the force itself is not racist in its outward apperence but forget that in Saudi Arabia there is ACTIVE racism in terms of the removal of religious freedoms. The muttawa are a police force in Saudi Arabia that specificly tries to route out non Islamic worship. Any Muslims converting in Saudi Arabia can be subjected to a death sentence. Complain about that intollerence before institutional racisim.
No. I mean seriously, no. This falls under the same catagory as people who try to devalue someone saying it's cold because somewhere else it's colder. So what? It's still f'n cold. So tolerance isn't as previlant in Saudi Arabia so until they catch up with us we shouldn't complain or try to fix things here? No. Sorry, no. They aren't pretending to be anything that they aren't, and more importantly, HERE is where I live. Here is where we are supposed to have the freedoms. Here. Don't tell me it's worse somewhere else so I can't complain. That's just stupid. Every other place can be where ever it wants. I can want them to change, but it's not my place to force it-I just won't live there, I'll live here and make sure this place lives up to it's word.

If a muslim made a art piece that made fun of their dominant culture, thats up to them. Dominant culture has an influance on how things are read no matter how you stomp your foot on the ground and say it shouldn't.