NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok answering some of the computer exam questions and looking though it all I was wondering

Who here is a computer geek?
(also any Hackers out there … you can give a shout out too … white hat since 01 and proud of it)
And if so what kind of geek are you?(and I understand some people are in more then one category)

Example: I am overall a Networking geek … anything hardware or software side (focusing on the first 4 layers of the OSI) also network security

Besides networking very strong in hardware …
Also Very strong in Viral


Weak points
Productivity software … good with excel and access but beyond that …
Visual … such as flash site design

Overall programming … I can do C++ Java VB Basic C … and a few others but I get BORED easy so I am usually for a single task then done…



Anyways I am sure there is some stuff I am missing

But just curious as to who out there is geeky :)

I'm really good at wordpad

I'm really good at wordpad
See I go for the notepad cowd myself

See I go for the notepad cowd myself
because it's more geeky? Yes.

Wordpad? pfffffffft

Every 1337 hacker uses Notepad.

Your such a square Legless...

Wordpad? pfffffffft

Every 1337 hacker uses Notepad.

Your such a square Legless...
I used to be a square and use Word... pesky paperclip> :eek: :gundge: <me

Only because wordpad takes that little bit longer to load :p

I used to be a square and use Word... pesky paperclip> :eek: :gundge: <me
Oh god I hate that paperclip!

because it's more geeky? Yes.
Yup

Actually I use Textpad more but … yeah


(and more so because it is real plain text … but I digress)

I am a systems Administrator Specializing in Networking.

:p

Caution: Swearing!

PaperClip Comeuppance (http://www.remote-films.com/salmondays/downloads/paper_clip.mpg)

I am a systems Administrator Specializing in Networking.
YAY networking geek!

Anyways if anyone wants to do a “quiz the geek” I wouldn’t be opposed to it either

What does www mean? :p

I am a systems Administrator Specializing in Networking.
I'm a Computer Systems Networking student who will likely specialize in Administration or Data Communications.

What is the dieeference between a geek and a nerd? Me and my friends have always said nerds were the ones with social skills and "lifes" but I have heard the opposite.

I play a lot of minesweeper.

notepad is for M$ slaves. Real geeks use vi.

What does www mean? :p
pffffttt!! Too easy! World Wide Web!

Here are some acronyms:
MESI
HTTP
OSI
CPU
RAM
ROM
CMOS
TCP/IP
FIFO
IO
IRQ

notepad is for M$ slaves. Real geeks use vi.
VI is pure evil. :D I can use it, but I still hate it....

VI is pure evil. :D I can use it, but I still hate it....
It's not for liking, it is for productivity.
when you get used to it, you find anything else too slow.

But just curious as to who out there is geeky :)
well im a dab-hand (is that the phrase? it sounds stupid!) at some CAD - more Corel and Quark etc than say 3DSMax (wish i had that prog :) )
other than that im a bit of an all-rounder. buld pcs, never had any problems with networking, websites are pretty good - tho still having troubles making a database driven site (got Dreamweaver ultradev 4 and MX but just keep getting the same syntax error :mad: - and yes i am a wysiwyg goon)

so yes *stands up... strikes heroic pose* i am a geek!


edit: not anywhere near the standard of some of u lot it would seem :( id love to know about programming and more depth about how computers function. took an ICT class hoping it would help, but i literally ended up taking over and teaching the class on more than one occasion :rolleyes: waste of time

and id also just like to say: boo Apple! (flamebait? :D )

Anyone who uses M$ software is not a real geek.

I unbreak broken computers, usually with lots of blood and swearing. I also give birth to unliving computers. My pets at the moment include a high-end FX-55-based computer, and I'm trying to build a 386-based computer with Windows 3.1 on it for posterity, without using any new parts. I also have a 1980s Nixdorf 'laptop' (AKA 'THE LAP CRUSHER') and I used to have a Nixdorf mainframe, though that's gone the way of the sofa -- to the skip.
Software-wise I can do some nifty things with Flash and Photoshop, but I'm stuck with WYSIWYG editors for websites.
That's about it. I don't know about networking because I don't use them. If I did, I would know about it. That's how I work.

Anyone who uses M$ software is not a real geek.
What about those of us who use lets say xp for just gaming purposes :-D


(personal choices for os is FreeBSD … followed by slackware debian mandrake readhat gopher gentoo)

Also they aren’t THAT bad for things like word-processing (I hate corell)

It's not for liking, it is for productivity.
when you get used to it, you find anything else too slow.
It's still evil... Bloody vulcan pinch command keys!

I unbreak broken computers, usually with lots of blood and swearing. Software-wise I can do some nifty things with Flash and Photoshop, but I'm stuck with WYSIWYG editors for websites.
That's about it. I don't know about networking because I don't use them. If I did, I would know about it. That's how I work.
If you use the internet (obviously you posted here) you are “Using” more then a few networks

BTW I'm some GPL geek. Not interested that much in hardware, although I like some asm from time to time (PPC asm is much fun. x86 is hell, but not everybody can have an IBM Regatta to play with).

It's not for liking, it is for productivity.
when you get used to it, you find anything else too slow.
BAH Vim is way better (sorry but the arrow key and backspace really pisses me off in strait up vi)

If you use the internet (obviously you posted here) you are “Using” more then a few networks

You knew exactly what I meant.

erm, I can turn on my computer 0_o

You knew exactly what I meant.
Yup but I am always a smartass :)

Oh by the way
Just for
Psylos

GO PICO!

BAH Vim is way better (sorry but the arrow key and backspace really pisses me off in strait up vi)
depends. If you are on a terminal with a slow connection to the X server, the arrow keys are sometimes much faster.

depends. If you are on a terminal with a slow connection to the X server, the arrow keys are sometimes much faster.
I was just talking about the fact that vi traditionally does not have arrow key movement enabled

That’s why I like vim running in normal mode …

(Though some un-printing key issues are terminal type and shell interpreters but yeah)

Yup but I am always a smartass :)

Oh by the way
Just for
Psylos

GO PICO!
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI....

Sorry... :D reminded me of something they made us type when we first had to learn how to use VI.

PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI.
PICO is evil. We must use VI....

Sorry... :D reminded me of something they made us type when we first had to learn how to use VI.
Lol I know ... Though it is not TOO bad when short changes or just actual text editing.

Personaly dislike emacs more

I was just talking about the fact that vi traditionally does not have arrow key movement enabled

That’s why I like vim running in normal mode …

(Though some un-printing key issues are terminal type and shell interpreters but yeah)
Oh I see.
I did map my arrow keys to hjkl on my terminal. There is no problem anymore ^^
I've never used PICO. Is it better than vi (or vim, or gvim)?

Oh I see.
I did map my arrow keys to hjkl on my terminal. There is no problem anymore ^^
I've never used PICO. Is it better than vi (or vim, or gvim)?
No … well

It is SIMPLE

Think notepad for *nix

No advanced features

Fine if you are just text editing but for programming it is … like I said notepad

Lol I know ... Though it is not TOO bad when short changes or just actual text editing.

Personaly dislike emacs more
Emacs are just as evil... ^_^

Emacs are just as evil... ^_^
You talking about the computer or the editor?

I'm a dbx addict. I like to follow everything a program does in asm and spot the inefficient calls. on a PPC architecture, it is even more funny. Can I get any geekier than that?

I'm a dbx addict. I like to follow everything a program does in asm and spot the inefficient calls. on a PPC architecture, it is even more funny. Can I get any geekier than that?
Um how about me rewriting TCP to do essentially the same thing work out performance issues just for the hell of it.

(mmmm tcpdump … you are my friend)

Ok to add to this … hardware geeks post your system :)

:confused:

I just built my current computer this weekend:

AMD Athlon 64 FX-55
2GB DDR-400 Dual-Channel RAM
NVidia GeForce 6800 256MB
Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2
1x 120GB WD Caviar 7200rpm HDD
1x 250GB WD Caviar 7200rpm HDD
Asus A8V Deluxe Socket-939 Mobo
Coolermaster 'Wavemaster' case
16x DVD ROM
32x CDRW

Seems expensive, but a friend of the family works for a local company called GCI, who stock computer parts for companies. Trade prices, typically 'bout 40% cheaper than the cheapest retail prices.

My last computer wasn't exactly a piece of crud, but it was on its last legs so far as gaming was concerned:

AMD Athlon XP TB2 2400+
512MB DDR400 RAM
1x 20GB Quantum Fireball HDD
1x 120GB WD Caviar 7200rpm HDD
Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 128MB 8x AGP
Creative Soundblaster Audigy

I forget what motherboard it was, though I know it was an NForce 2-based one. The case was some obscure AOpen case, with a terrible airflow.

I'm a programming geek. Or a geek-in-training at least. Java, C++, Q basic and VB (if you can call those last two languages.)

And MIPS assembly, thanks to the useless class I am currently taking.

Learning all about RISC and CISC and registers, buses, processors...stuff that I might find interesting and useful if I didn't hate the class so much.

Emacs are just as evil... ^_^
Hey! I was raised on Emacs!

Anyone who uses M$ software is not a real geek.

And any professional geek who ignores the fact that virtually their entire paying target market uses M$ is putting their ideals ahead of their bank book.


My first program ever was in Fortran and loaded into the mainframe on hand-filled punch cards. That was in 1980.

My first modem (in around 84) was a 150Baud unit that was the size of a thick paperback novel that needed manual reconfiguration most times you wanted to dial into a diferent BBS.

Anyone complaining abut MS's inadequacies now would have run screaming from the room in the earlier days of computing and hid in their closets in the hopes that they could escape the BS that we had to go through then.

Notepad Ownz Your Asses!

And any professional geek who ignores the fact that virtually their entire paying target market uses M$ is putting their ideals ahead of their bank book.
Or putting their long-term bank account ahead of their short-term bank account, because they'll get betrayed by M$ sooner or later.
Anyway serious businesses don't use M$ products. I don't know about any industry where the Supply chain relies on windows (or maybe just for non-critical business like bureautics or on some non-critical terminal clients).
What is your business and why is your entire paying target market using windows? Wouldn't it be smart to switch to something more reliable before M$ changes the API which is critical? Just wondering...

:confused:

I just built my current computer this weekend:

AMD Athlon 64 FX-55
2GB DDR-400 Dual-Channel RAM
NVidia GeForce 6800 256MB
Creative Soundblaster Audigy 2
1x 120GB WD Caviar 7200rpm HDD
1x 250GB WD Caviar 7200rpm HDD
Asus A8V Deluxe Socket-939 Mobo
Coolermaster 'Wavemaster' case
16x DVD ROM
32x CDRW

Seems expensive, but a friend of the family works for a local company called GCI, who stock computer parts for companies. Trade prices, typically 'bout 40% cheaper than the cheapest retail prices.

My last computer wasn't exactly a piece of crud, but it was on its last legs so far as gaming was concerned:

AMD Athlon XP TB2 2400+
512MB DDR400 RAM
1x 20GB Quantum Fireball HDD
1x 120GB WD Caviar 7200rpm HDD
Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 128MB 8x AGP
Creative Soundblaster Audigy

I forget what motherboard it was, though I know it was an NForce 2-based one. The case was some obscure AOpen case, with a terrible airflow.

Nice ... lets jsut say I am runing dual amd64 3500's on my last desktop

Or putting their long-term bank account ahead of their short-term bank account, because they'll get betrayed by M$ sooner or later.
Anyway serious businesses don't use M$ products. I don't know about any industry where the Supply chain relies on windows (or maybe just for non-critical business like bureautics or on some non-critical terminal clients).
What is your business and why is your entire paying target market using windows? Wouldn't it be smart to switch to something more reliable before M$ changes the API which is critical? Just wondering...
Um anything to do with front end coustomers or home use computers?

You try to teach my fauther that I just built a computer for that he has to use *nix ... even if it is using something like KDE

Or putting their long-term bank account ahead of their short-term bank account, because they'll get betrayed by M$ sooner or later.
Anyway serious businesses don't use M$ products. I don't know about any industry where the Supply chain relies on windows (or maybe just for non-critical business like bureautics or on some non-critical terminal clients).
What is your business and why is your entire paying target market using windows? Wouldn't it be smart to switch to something more reliable before M$ changes the API which is critical? Just wondering...

Well right off the hop you are discussing marketing products to businesses, and in your case in the specialized field of Supply chain. This hardly defines the entirety of the software industry. There is, don't forget, a huge market of software sales to end-users. You can ignore that if you like, however almost everyone here is reading this through a browser on an M$ machine that has a shitload of software loaded on it.


And actually, all of my back-end code IS on various flavours of UNIX - I work in telecommunications. But even then almost everything front-end for my work (and most others) still has to be either web-compliant or Windows compliant, or perhaps both.

And I'm sorry, but even your complaint about API's is rather moot. Yes, it is more frequent with MS, but it's not like anything UNIX based hasn't got updated along the way either. Newer widgets we all used as old ones fell by the wayside as X got more robust. Updates in protocol versions for many common interfaces. Even when poeople tried being as non-specific as possible and built in Java (which I have done a lot of), then along comes newer versions that deprecate half of your code. AWT? Swing? Pick a Java GUI layer and watch it change and eventually slide into obscurity. Want to go pure C-Unix? Either be 100% ANSI-compliant or start running into HP/Sun issues if you want to market across diferent platforms. Even with strict compliance you may run into issues if you are getting low-level enough with your code.

Every platform has positive and negative aspects. And the best business decisions are based on applying that knowledge to your product and your target market. So you do supply-chain for major companies? Sure, use something better than M$. you can afford to because the companies you are marketing to can support it. However if you are doing supply chain/ordering systems for a wholesaler marketing their products to Mom 'n pop corner stores then you you may also want to build them a Windows component that will integrate your online-ordering front end into their Quick Books! If yuo are selling inventory tracking software directly to the mom ;n pop, then make it run on windows or they probably won;t buy it. They have enough to do running their store without worrying about learning a new OS.

I mean - which do you want to sell to? Make 100 sales of huge apps to your "serious" big businesses? Or 100,000 small sales to smaller, workstation-based companies that don't have IT departments?

If the answer is the 100,000 sales, then you best be building on M$ or your clients won't buy it. They don't want to have to buy an HP for the back and learn Unix administration.

But whichever you choose doesn't make your business any more "serious" than the other. You are just going after diferent markets.

Would I want to build what I do on a pure M$ platform? Hell no! I run multi terabyte sized data warehouses. But do I limit my craft to one OS? No. I don't believe in making career-limiting decisions and overspecializing either!

Well right off the hop you are discussing marketing products to businesses, and in your case in the specialized field of Supply chain. This hardly defines the entirety of the software industry. There is, don't forget, a huge market of software sales to end-users. You can ignore that if you like, however almost everyone here is reading this through a browser on an M$ machine that has a shitload of software loaded on it.


And actually, all of my back-end code IS on various flavours of UNIX - I work in telecommunications. But even then almost everything front-end for my work (and most others) still has to be either web-compliant or Windows compliant, or perhaps both.

And I'm sorry, but even your complaint about API's is rather moot. Yes, it is more frequent with MS, but it's not like anything UNIX based hasn't got updated along the way either. Newer widgets we all used as old ones fell by the wayside as X got more robust. Updates in protocol versions for many common interfaces. Even when poeople tried being as non-specific as possible and built in Java (which I have done a lot of), then along comes newer versions that deprecate half of your code. AWT? Swing? Pick a Java GUI layer and watch it change and eventually slide into obscurity. Want to go pure C-Unix? Either be 100% ANSI-compliant or start running into HP/Sun issues if you want to market across diferent platforms. Even with strict compliance you may run into issues if you are getting low-level enough with your code.

Every platform has positive and negative aspects. And the best business decisions are based on applying that knowledge to your product and your target market. So you do supply-chain for major companies? Sure, use something better than M$. you can afford to because the companies you are marketing to can support it. However if you are doing supply chain/ordering systems for a wholesaler marketing their products to Mom 'n pop corner stores then you you may also want to build them a Windows component that will integrate your online-ordering front end into their Quick Books! If yuo are selling inventory tracking software directly to the mom ;n pop, then make it run on windows or they probably won;t buy it. They have enough to do running their store without worrying about learning a new OS.

I mean - which do you want to sell to? Make 100 sales of huge apps to your "serious" big businesses? Or 100,000 small sales to smaller, workstation-based companies that don't have IT departments?

If the answer is the 100,000 sales, then you best be building on M$ or your clients won't buy it. They don't want to have to buy an HP for the back and learn Unix administration.

But whichever you choose doesn't make your business any more "serious" than the other. You are just going after diferent markets.

Would I want to build what I do on a pure M$ platform? Hell no! I run multi terabyte sized data warehouses. But do I limit my craft to one OS? No. I don't believe in making career-limiting decisions and overspecializing either!


What he said … lol
:)
Not a fan of M$ but … lol they do have their advantages

I a Computer Science student, I'm "fluent" in nearly a dozen programming languages.

Well right off the hop you are discussing marketing products to businesses, and in your case in the specialized field of Supply chain. This hardly defines the entirety of the software industry. There is, don't forget, a huge market of software sales to end-users. You can ignore that if you like, however almost everyone here is reading this through a browser on an M$ machine that has a shitload of software loaded on it.Sorry you're right, but I think this is the past. People surfing the internet are less and less willing to pay for software. they more and more want the top of software for no cost and they want freedom. They get their software from emule. Major sotware corporations (IBM, Oracle, SAP, even M$) are trying to climb up the food chain. M$ is buying like mad entreprise software companies. They know the end-user business will be buried soon.

And actually, all of my back-end code IS on various flavours of UNIX - I work in telecommunications. But even then almost everything front-end for my work (and most others) still has to be either web-compliant or Windows compliant, or perhaps both.
I see, but it is short term logic. You use the word 'still' yourself. Soon, front-end will have to be no cost.

And I'm sorry, but even your complaint about API's is rather moot. Yes, it is more frequent with MS, but it's not like anything UNIX based hasn't got updated along the way either. Newer widgets we all used as old ones fell by the wayside as X got more robust. Updates in protocol versions for many common interfaces. Even when poeople tried being as non-specific as possible and built in Java (which I have done a lot of), then along comes newer versions that deprecate half of your code. AWT? Swing? Pick a Java GUI layer and watch it change and eventually slide into obscurity. Want to go pure C-Unix? Either be 100% ANSI-compliant or start running into HP/Sun issues if you want to market across diferent platforms. Even with strict compliance you may run into issues if you are getting low-level enough with your code.
But you will still get support with GPL, because the source is open. Better dump your windows/Solaris/HPUX and have something GPL. And remember you can use and modify in-house GPL software with no limit.

Sorry you're right, but I think this is the past. People surfing the internet are less and less willing to pay for software. they more and more want the top of software for no cost and they want freedom. They get their software from emule. Major sotware corporations (IBM, Oracle, SAP, even M$) are trying to climb up the food chain. M$ is buying like mad entreprise software companies. They know the end-user business will be buried soon.
I see, but it is short term logic. You use the word 'still' yourself. Soon, front-end will have to be no cost.


Yes, I agree that people seem to expect that the entire software industry should be moving into the realm of freeware. Indeed, the internet has raised an entire generation of people that expect other people to do all of the work without renumeration while they get the benefits. Otherwise refered to as "cheap greedy assholes who also never learn to RTFM."

Free OS, free software, free music, free movies, free everything.

Of course, the issue then becomes, who will bother getting into these industries if there is little future in them for financial gain?

Right now the user community benefits from the fact that the old industry paradigms still are holding on in the face of the "gimme for free" onslaught. This means that there are many talented people who have trained themselves to be top programmers who indulge themselves in various GPL projects, usually as an aside to a paid job in the industry. Eventually though, this golden era will fade if the future pans out the way you seem to think. And as software development becomes accepted as a poor career choice monetarily speaking then the best and brightest of us will instead focus their energies in other pursuits.


But you will still get support with GPL, because the source is open. Better dump your windows/Solaris/HPUX and have something GPL. And remember you can use and modify in-house GPL software with no limit.

In other words, you like open-source and want to give yourself job-security by creating custom versions therof for your specific client thus holding intellectual knowledge that they can't afford to lose. Frankly, that is an equally appalling way for the industry to progress - even as it is, to some degree, exactly what I do as a consultant. I benefit from it, but I recognize the issues with this sort of business model, especially as this really is restricted to the large players. The mom 'n pop is NEVER going to hire someone to modify their OS so they can integrate better with their chocolate bar supplier. But if all the small software users go entirely GPL in their product choices then the huge custom apps are going to be the only paying jobs left.

and indeed you have actually identified one of the central issues why many larger players are wary of pure modified-open-source solutions. Yes, GPL IS often fairly well supported, however when a small team starts modifying it then the community support goes out the window. You are now beholden to the small team, and if the small team wants job security then code-obfuscation is going to become the name of the game. I have worked jobs that allowed open-source to be used as part of a solution in order to save costs but that would accept this only on the condition that it not be modified for just that reason. Their problem being that the modifications would need to also be patched into any future upgrades of the base GPL code. This represents a future expense and risk that they prefered not to assume.

For example, building an app that requires a modified version or RedHat to run on becomes a self-perpetuating internal support issue if you want to keep your RedHat up to date with security patches.


The other worry actualy goes further back to your initial comment about MS APIs. The GPL community has the singular distinction that it really need not care if they decide to take an abrupt left-turn with their code. What? Are their customers going to stop paying them? From a business-perspective, there is risk attached with making your mission-critical code depend on applications that have no vested interest in keeping you a happy customer.


Will this become the software business model of the future? I hope not. It is my career and frankly I'd like to keep it going until I'm ready to retire. I'm getting too damn old to want to think about going back to school.Clealry GPL is here to stay so it will always be a factor, but the idea that GPL will become the defacto standard for most computer apps and OS's will wreak havoc on the industry.


Would I reccomend to my son or daughter that they take up coding as a career choice? Not right now I wouldn't - for the reasons we have been discussing. The market for software use keeps growing, but the market for software sales and software development jobs keeps shrinking. And so if I maintain some reservtions about totally embracing GPL, well then you can write that off to self-interest if you like, but I think that my points have merit.

Who will bother learning coding well enough to keep maintaining and building all of this GPL code in 50 years if they can't make a career of it? Expecting the bulk of the software industry to end up as intelectual charity to the masses is putting more faith in humanity that I have.

Perhaps you don't like it, but it is how the world is functioning.
I don't blame the people who want free software. I blame the states who should subsidize software and culture development.
Free (as in free beer and as in free speech) access to information is a good thing in my opinion, because information should not be artificially limited to the few.

im no hacker hell i never even got itno the programing thing bores the hell outa me :/ but i did have the admin pass for my school district so that was a hoot :D

Perhaps you don't like it, but it is how the world is functioning.
I don't blame the people who want free software. I blame the states who should subsidize software and culture development.
Free (as in free beer and as in free speech) access to information is a good thing in my opinion, because information should not be artificially limited to the few.

while I agree with your sentiment regarding information, it seems an odd thing to throw into this debate. Free access to information does NOT equate to a required access to all possible computer programs for free. Thats like saying that freedom of mobility should equate to free cars of any type to all.

while I agree with your sentiment regarding information, it seems an odd thing to throw into this debate. Free access to information does NOT equate to a required access to all possible computer programs for free. Thats like saying that freedom of mobility should equate to free cars of any type to all.Well no I don't agree. Producing cars cost. Copying software doesn't cost. If I steal your car, you don't have it anymore. If I steal your idea, you can still use it. False analogy.
While I agree programmers should get a decent wage to live, it doesn't mean they have the right to limit access to information. That is why I think it is the role of the state to provide software for free, by subsidizing software development.

Well no I don't agree. Producing cars cost. Copying software doesn't cost. If I steal your car, you don't have it anymore. If I steal your idea, you can still use it. False analogy.
While I agree programmers should get a decent wage to live, it doesn't mean they have the right to limit access to information. That is why I think it is the role of the state to provide software for free, by subsidizing software development.


For starters, ideas are at least copyrightable, but proving what has been copied from compiled code is very dificult to prove in a court of law. Your "right" to steal my ideas does not neccessarily imply a right to profit from it. It's called intellectual property. and if you are taking my hard work to facilitate your task without compensating me, then that goes counter to every other industry. "Cost" is an amorphous term. It cost me time out of my life to develop the code. Copying it saves time out of yours to be more productive. Why do you get to benefit from my investment when I don't?


As to it's being the government's role to subsidize all software development? Bullshit! Under that line of thinking the government should be in the business of subsidizing EVERYTHING, because everything can be shown to be of an informational nature to some citizens.

Didn't like the car analogy? How about this then:

You can't steal a bestselling novel, add in a couple of characters and chapters, and then resell it as your own for profit. That is, in efect, what you are suggesting should be allowed. That the first version, no matter how popular it becomes, has no more value than a crappy novel, and that others should have the right to do what they want with it with no incremental value to the originating author regardless of how much time or effort or talent they put into their product.

I don't buy that.

I HAVE put code out into the public domain. I HAVE invested time into freeware. That was my choice to do so with my efforts. But the idea that I should be mandated to hand over every output from my skill into the public domain so that other (perhaps less talented) programmers can compete against me in the market with my own code to prop them up - is bullshit of the highest order.

It's like allowing plagerism in an essay-writing contest.

For starters, ideas are at least copyrightable, but proving what has been copied from compiled code is very dificult to prove in a court of law. Your "right" to steal my ideas does not neccessarily imply a right to profit from it. It's called intellectual property. and if you are taking my hard work to facilitate your task without compensating me, then that goes counter to every other industry. "Cost" is an amorphous term. It cost me time out of my life to develop the code. Copying it saves time out of yours to be more productive. Why do you get to benefit from my investment when I don't?
Intellectual property is capitalist bullshit. What if Einstein had copyrighted e=mc2? Maybe we would still be gathering and hunting for survival.
Like I said, I think you have a right to benefit from your investment, that is why you should get subsidies from the state.
After that, the more people can benefit from it, the better. If people can study your code and improve it, everybody benefit. This is what progress is about and we can not afford not to progress. Just look at some GPL software and you will understand that copyrighting software is a very inefficient and unsecure way of making software. It's high time we move into the 21th centuary.

As to it's being the government's role to subsidize all software development? Bullshit! Under that line of thinking the government should be in the business of subsidizing EVERYTHING, because everything can be shown to be of an informational nature to some citizens.
What about privatizing the MIT and NASA then? So they become totally useless. Information is useless if it is not shared. And sharing between a few oligarchs at the top is not sharing.

Didn't like the car analogy? How about this then:

You can't steal a bestselling novel, add in a couple of characters and chapters, and then resell it as your own for profit. That is, in efect, what you are suggesting should be allowed. That the first version, no matter how popular it becomes, has no more value than a crappy novel, and that others should have the right to do what they want with it with no incremental value to the originating author regardless of how much time or effort or talent they put into their product.
With GPL, you don't have the right to make money out of that. I say it again, I think the government should subsidize information, including culture. I don't want to be sued by some crazy capitalists for telling a story to a friend and find out that it was copyrighted.
I work for a company which has just been sued for using the term "is on" in an advert campaign, because the term "is on" is copyrighted. They passed a memo requesting that we stop using the term "is on" in any communication. Come on, this is total bullshit! If I hear something and I repeat it I'm not stealing anything. I'm just using my free speech right. Those who copyright are not protecting themselves from stealing, they are denying the right to free speech to everybody else.

I don't buy that.

I HAVE put code out into the public domain. I HAVE invested time into freeware. That was my choice to do so with my efforts. But the idea that I should be mandated to hand over every output from my skill into the public domain so that other (perhaps less talented) programmers can compete against me in the market with my own code to prop them up - is bullshit of the highest order.

It's like allowing plagerism in an essay-writing contest.
You should stop thinking about competing all the time. You are not at war with the rest of the world. You should think about cooperating with the rest of your fellow human beings and try to make progress. The market of information you talk about is total bullshit. Information is infinite, there is no market, it's not like oil or carrots. State subsidies = cooperation. Competition = Olympic games, not software.

So... what you want, is actually... communism? But only for software? Interesting... daft and it'll never happen, but interesting...

So... what you want, is actually... communism? But only for software? Interesting... daft and it'll never happen, but interesting...
Well we have communism in science already. The NASA/MIT and everything.
Isn't software science?
I don't know if we have any alternative actually, because emule is here to stay anyway.

I am a Female Nerd ;)

Here are the things I can do:
I can build computers at a beginer to intermediate level.
I can fix computers at a beginer to intermediate level.
I can design web sites at a beginning level.
I can utilize the internet at an advanced level.

At the moment, my computer is sadly behind. I was living at my mother's house while I was going through a divorce, and her wiring was bad. My computer caught fire, destroying it. :eek: I had to rebuild it with lesser parts :( Right now I am running:

Pentium 3 600
512 Meg of PC-100 ram
Soundblaster Live Soundcard
Matrox Videocard with dual monitor capibility
DVD rom
CD rom
100 gig+ hard drive

My old computer was MUCH better. Had a CD writer in it, and I was saving up for a DVD writer and new videocard, but...BOOM!

I would love to take some classes, but I can't, as i have no money, and am disabled. I may take some over the internet though.

Speaking of the original subject (O.K., I'm a little late)....

I'm primarily a math nerd, but I have my share of adventures in computer geekdom.

I have to agree that anybody bringing up wordpad is not really a geek. When I'm stuck in Windows, I use Notepad. vi/vim are ok, but sometimes it is faster to use a mouse. I usually wind up using gedit because it's so much faster than emacs.

I'm one of those weird people who likes writing databases. I also enjoy writing adaptive/genetic code and AI. I've done some work in computer vision/image analysis. I want to write an HTTP bot, but I have no worthy cause. I make a lot of websites.

My preferred language is Perl. If it's important, I'll use C or even assembly. I also have an unhealthy addiction to `make -j'.

I don't do much on the hardware side. I build my computers. I've designed a few autonomous robots, but that's not so unusual for someone with a degree in Electrical Engineering.

I love female nerds. You can't beat that.

I love female nerds. You can't beat that.

;) I'm single, too...ROFLMAO :eek:

;) I'm single, too...ROFLMAO :eek:
Impossible!

Impossible!
Many male computer geeks are single....

Many male computer geeks are single....
*sniff sniff* So?

*sniff sniff* So?
:( <- geeky me

Impossible!

Yes. I'm single, although it's by choice, not because I haven't been asked. I am still going through my divorce, it's VERY recent, so I've decided for the time being that I'm not going to date. I tried it, but i ended up calling it off.
I have my picture up on my Yahoo profile, but I'm thinking of taking it down, because guys keep messaging me, wantinmg to cyber, and I'm not into that. LOL.

Yes. I'm single, although it's by choice,
Yeah, that's what I say, too. And I mean it. Really. 8)

Yes. I'm single, although it's by choice, not because I haven't been asked. I am still going through my divorce, it's VERY recent, so I've decided for the time being that I'm not going to date. I tried it, but i ended up calling it off.
I have my picture up on my Yahoo profile, but I'm thinking of taking it down, because guys keep messaging me, wantinmg to cyber, and I'm not into that. LOL.
Wanna cyber?

Yeah, that's what I say, too. And I mean it. Really. 8)

ROFLMAO. :)
Well, you see, my ex-husband and I were together for about 12 years, since high school, and he is the one who called it off. So, I'm really unhappy about it. We went back and forth for over a year getting back together, and then him dumping me again, til he finally dumped me for good and said he's be sending me divorce papers. I had a boyfriend, but i decided I'm not 0into casual sex, or casual relationships, so for right now I just want to be single. I'm not going to start dating again until i feel like it. :(

Wanna cyber?

<inset witty cumback here>

Heh, I suppose I'm an aspiring computer geek...

I'm one of the most computer-knowledgeable people I know in real life (the guy whom everyone calls for help fixing things and such), but compared to some of you guys, I'm a complete novice... It's just easy to seem advanced in a group of "illiterates," which the majority of those around me are...lol

But, I do know more than the average guy on the street... I built the machine I'm typing this on (sounds more impressive (to the layman, anyways) than it really is... it's not that difficult of an undertaking...lol), I know a programming language or two (none of the commercially used ones, though... yet), I can handle most popular software apps, I can build an (HTML only) website (from scratch, or through an editor), I know the majority of the "lingo", etc, etc...

But, aside from at least being able to follow the conversations going on in here, I'm no where near the level some of you are at...lol

I'm a Micro$oft drone as well... I'm content using my "inferior" OS, with all of its various "inferior" applications... I'm a bit curious about other systems, but not to the point where I have any drive to do something about it...lol

As for the debate that has sprung up in this thread, my opinion lies with Zeppistan's... Windows is an all-pervasive entity in the computing world... The vast majority of the market uses it, and will continue to use it (face it, only the true geeks even know that other platforms even exist, and the average Joes out there outnumber the geeks by a thousand to one)... You'd be a fool not to make your products geared towards it...

As for open source? I'm a fan of capitalism, so that doesn't fly well... Why shouldn't someone get paid for their work? And if they do, why should that money come from the government? Heck, you're only adding a middleman... The money for those subsidies comes from taxes... Those tax dollars come from your end customers... All you're doing is passing the cash through another hand, and Uncle Sam is more than likely going to take his "fair" share out of the transaction... Not good...

Besides, competition is great... It forces evolution... If you remove competition from the system, you stagnate... Regardless of how many people can get free access to the information... No one will ever use it for anything better, because they don't have to...

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCS>GFA d-(+) s++:+>++: a- C++(+)$ US(+)>++$ P L+ E--- W++$ !N o? K- w+ O- !M V PS++(+) PE- Y+ PGP- t+ 5 X+ R+@ tv b++ DI+(++) D++@ G>++ e++ h-- r++ y+++@*
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

I'm not going to start dating again until i feel like it.
That's probably a good idea.


As for open source? I'm a fan of capitalism, so that doesn't fly well... Why shouldn't someone get paid for their work?
I think that open source is very capitalist. When's the last time you saw an advertisement that offered you something for free? You know there's a catch, right? If you get people to start using your operating system, then they'll purchase things to go with it. Also, it's really the only way to compete against a monopoly. Most people would agree that monopolies are not in the best interests of a capitalist society.

What have competition ever brought to the computer industry?
The computer and the internet were invented with state funds in universities/military government funded organizations.
The private sector has invented the click to buy concept (patented by Amazon.com), and many different more or less effective ways to protect software from piracy. They have driven the best inovators out of business while imposing inferior software to the masses.
The PC has emerged as the standard platform because IBM forgot to copyright the architecture. Just imagine how it would be if IBM had copyrighted the PC. You would still be struggling with EGA screens at $3000 and 5.25 floppy disks at $10 each.

Competition drives innovation... It is the same in the computing world as it is in all other industries...

The only reason companies try to make better products is to win over more customers from the competition...

If that goal is taken away, because there are no "sales" to drive it, innovation will dwindle... Nothing will ever become improved, because there's no reason to, other than to impress your friends, and improve your own experience... You've got no motivation to share that with the rest of the world, because you won't be getting paid for it...

You mention obsolete and inferior hardware in your post... You want to know why we have other, better options today? It is because of competition...

Granted, the personality of the average programmer or hardware enthusiast is one that likes to improve things and push the boundaries, and this may be enough to keep things going, but I'm not going to bet on it...

Competition drives innovation... It is the same in the computing world as it is in all other industries...Granted, but what kind of innovation? They don't innovate to add value to their product, they innovate to lock the customers into paying more.

The only reason companies try to make better products is to win over more customers from the competition...
But there is no competition since they have copyrights and patents which ensure them monopoly. They only make better products out of open standards like the PC architecture and then they lock their curtomers.

If that goal is taken away, because there are no "sales" to drive it, innovation will dwindle... Nothing will ever become improved, because there's no reason to, other than to impress your friends, and improve your own experience... You've got no motivation to share that with the rest of the world, because you won't be getting paid for it...except when government funds inovation.

You mention obsolete and inferior hardware in your post... You want to know why we have other, better options today? It is because of competition...Competition between companies making hardware components. IBM made the architecture and there is no competition on the architecture. The IDE is inferior to the SCSI and yet it is the standard. windows is inferior to MacOS and yet it sells more, because there are using open standards.

When I come to think about it I will agree that competitions is useful for software but there should be additional government funding for open standards as well, because it's like cars and road. You can have competition on cars but you can't have a competition on roads (it's the same road for everybody). I think the OS is like a road and should be open.

It's a mix of cooperation and competition that I'm suggesting : competition on highest level software and cooperation for open standards on lower levels.

I'll be the first person to agree that intellectual property laws are anti-capitalist. I'll be the last person to agree that the answer is government funding. As was astutely (in my opinion) pointed out earlier, that only adds a middle man.

I don't use roads. Should I pay for them? My grandmother doesn't use a computer. Should she pay some programmer's salary? You can argue for the benefit of society as much as you want; that doesn't make it fair. I'll choose the causes that I believe are worth supporting.

You seem to suggest that it was unintentional that IBM allowed other manufacturers to imitate their product. There was already a precedent for that tactic with Beta vs. VHS. Unfortunately, Beta's superiority receives little debate. I will gladly debate with you the superiority of Apple's hardware design. Apples don't have a text-only video mode. That means that there's an extra processor on the mainboard that you can't upgrade by getting a new video card. It also makes Apple computers much less desirable for servers. And, worst of all, it means that you can't run an Apple in text-only mode. SCSI is better, but it's more expensive.

That's probably a good idea.


I think that open source is very capitalist. When's the last time you saw an advertisement that offered you something for free? You know there's a catch, right? If you get people to start using your operating system, then they'll purchase things to go with it. Also, it's really the only way to compete against a monopoly. Most people would agree that monopolies are not in the best interests of a capitalist society.
I just want to point out that open source != free

Look at readhat ... still open source but they only provide you with the source ... not the compiled version and not any updates or patches or package installers.

Can be done (if you are a true geek you can compile the source but pain in the ass ontop of not having any support)

So they charge for it ...

Red Hat is for commercial use. If you want free software from Red Hat, you should try Fedora Core. It has an update agent and does lots of things for you.

I'll be the first person to agree that intellectual property laws are anti-capitalist. I'll be the last person to agree that the answer is government funding. As was astutely (in my opinion) pointed out earlier, that only adds a middle man.

I don't use roads. Should I pay for them? My grandmother doesn't use a computer. Should she pay some programmer's salary? You can argue for the benefit of society as much as you want; that doesn't make it fair. I'll choose the causes that I believe are worth supporting.

You seem to suggest that it was unintentional that IBM allowed other manufacturers to imitate their product. There was already a precedent for that tactic with Beta vs. VHS. Unfortunately, Beta's superiority receives little debate. I will gladly debate with you the superiority of Apple's hardware design. Apples don't have a text-only video mode. That means that there's an extra processor on the mainboard that you can't upgrade by getting a new video card. It also makes Apple computers much less desirable for servers. And, worst of all, it means that you can't run an Apple in text-only mode. SCSI is better, but it's more expensive.


note a LOT more expensive ... prohibitivly so

Example

Seagate 40 gb Ultra IDE drive 54$

80 gb SATA (serial ata) drive 73$ (this aproches scsi proformance and is relitivly easy to raid and can be hot swapable)

36 gb SCSI drive 164$ (OUCH)

I mean prime example of why they dont catch on besides server apps
And with the release of SATA we are seeing a shift away from SCSI drives

Red Hat is for commercial use. If you want free software from Red Hat, you should try Fedora Core. It has an update agent and does lots of things for you.
No I am a FreeBSD fan

Just pointing out that just because it is open source it can still make money and compete in a capatalistic envyroment

Granted, but what kind of innovation? They don't innovate to add value to their product, they innovate to lock the customers into paying more.

I disagree with this... They innovate to make a product that is more appealing (because it is "better") than that of the competition... This draws more customers to purchase their product rather than the competition's, which gains them higher profits...

Yes, a better product often comes with a higher price tag, but here is another area in which competition comes into play... If another company offers a similar product at a lower price, the customers will shift to that product... The company with the higher price will be forced to lower their price to compete... (and so on)

But there is no competition since they have copyrights and patents which ensure them monopoly. They only make better products out of open standards like the PC architecture and then they lock their curtomers.

I can't fault them for wanting to hold onto their innovations... But even in the case of a copyrighted item, there's nothing stopping others from making something similar, but better... You can innovate in an area, without having to improve a copyrighted object or program... For instance, Paint Shop Pro is copyrighted, but that doesn't stop Adobe from putting out Photoshop, a very similar, yet original piece of software, which some would argue is better in many aspects...

And Adobe has copyrighted that software as well... So what does Jasc do? They make a new version of PSP, that is improved... And so on...

Also, my wireless optical mouse is patented by Microsoft... But that still doesn't mean another company can't make their own... They just can't make theirs the same as Microsoft's... If they find a way to make one that's better, then that helps the consumer... But it only occurs through competition...

Monopolies aren't good, of course, but it's nearly impossible to acheieve one...

except when government funds inovation.

But again, where does this government funding come from? The taxpayers... So the dollars that drive these innovations are still coming from the same original source, but now you've got another hand to pass them through... And then, how do you divide these funds? Spread them evenly among the various companies? If everyone gets their fair share, then what's the use in innovating anything? You're getting your money either way... But, if you've got to fight for your income, you're vastly more likely to improve your product...

Or do you give more money to the companies that make the best innovations? Well, that's exactly what the consumer-driven economy does already, without having to throw in an unnecessary middleman...

Competition between companies making hardware components. IBM made the architecture and there is no competition on the architecture. The IDE is inferior to the SCSI and yet it is the standard. windows is inferior to MacOS and yet it sells more, because there are using open standards.

I can concede that Microsoft abused the system a bit...lol Windows holds the market because MS outmarketed Apple (and other competitors) with some rather shady practices... And once they'd gotten out to a virtually unassailable lead, no competition is going to be able to touch them, even if they come to the table with a better product... When the word "Windows" or "Microsoft" is slapped on 90% of the computer products the average consumer sees and uses, they're not going to even look at anything else...

I don't think it has anything to do with the product itself, how it is built, or how well it runs... It's just a simple matter of saturation... Windows is everywhere, and that's a self-sustaining foothold... The others can't replace it, because not enough people are willing to switch... After all, unless everyone is going to switch, you're better off sticking with the one most people use...

I'd say this is a problem of not enough competition...

When I come to think about it I will agree that competitions is useful for software but there should be additional government funding for open standards as well, because it's like cars and road. You can have competition on cars but you can't have a competition on roads (it's the same road for everybody). I think the OS is like a road and should be open.

It's a mix of cooperation and competition that I'm suggesting : competition on highest level software and cooperation for open standards on lower levels.

Ahhh, I can agree that the base upon which things are built should remain as universal and standardized as possible... The fundamental systems of a computer should be the same in all computers... This would facilitate software development, because you don't have to worry about OS compatibility and porting issues...

So perhaps the operating systems should be an open source sort of thing, or at the very least, there should be a set of standards set up for the various companies to comply with... But individual software applications (and hardware, as long as it remains standards compliant) simply must remain closed and in constant competition in order to have any growth or innovation...

You seem to suggest that it was unintentional that IBM allowed other manufacturers to imitate their product. There was already a precedent for that tactic with Beta vs. VHS. Unfortunately, Beta's superiority receives little debate. I will gladly debate with you the superiority of Apple's hardware design. Apples don't have a text-only video mode. That means that there's an extra processor on the mainboard that you can't upgrade by getting a new video card. It also makes Apple computers much less desirable for servers. And, worst of all, it means that you can't run an Apple in text-only mode. SCSI is better, but it's more expensive.I did not talk about apple, but more about the TSX.
Anyway, Apple Macintosh is much more recent than the PC and it doesn't need a text mode. I don't see what it has to do with servers. Apple macintosh are not suited for servers because they are designed to be clients, just like PC computers (which stands for Personal Computer) but that has nothing to do with text mode. Why do you need text mode on servers? Text mode is ugly.
And SCSI is more expensive because it is less common. If it was produced at the same scale as IDE, it would cost the same.
BTW, IBM is out of the PC business now.

I did not talk about apple, but more about the TSX.
Anyway, Apple Macintosh is much more recent than the PC and it doesn't need a text mode. I don't see what it has to do with servers. Apple macintosh are not suited for servers because they are designed to be clients, just like PC computers (which stands for Personal Computer) but that has nothing to do with text mode. Why do you need text mode on servers? Text mode is ugly.
And SCSI is more expensive because it is less common. If it was produced at the same scale as IDE, it would cost the same.
BTW, IBM is out of the PC business now.
Lol in fact I believe they are making the new G5 processors

Also besides being PC the IBM architecture is much more suited to server situations (note the difference between a RISC and a SISC processor) Not to mention hardware expandability

Lol in fact I believe they are making the new G5 processors

Also besides being PC the IBM architecture is much more suited to server situations (note the difference between a RISC and a SISC processor) Not to mention hardware expandability
PC can be used for small servers, but I would call that suited.
You can't warm-upgrade the processor for instance (You can do that on Sun SPARC servers for instance).
I don't get what you mean with the RISC and CICS thing. The G5 is a RISC. Intell processors are CISC. I agree RISC is better suited for servers because they have to be more scalable.

Ok answering some of the computer exam questions and looking though it all I was wondering

Who here is a computer geek?
(also any Hackers out there … you can give a shout out too … white hat since 01 and proud of it)
And if so what kind of geek are you?(and I understand some people are in more then one category)

Example: I am overall a Networking geek … anything hardware or software side (focusing on the first 4 layers of the OSI) also network security

Besides networking very strong in hardware …
Also Very strong in Viral


Weak points
Productivity software … good with excel and access but beyond that …
Visual … such as flash site design

Overall programming … I can do C++ Java VB Basic C … and a few others but I get BORED easy so I am usually for a single task then done…



Anyways I am sure there is some stuff I am missing

But just curious as to who out there is geeky :)

I should have known there was a reason I liked you....

What is it with me finding all the gay guys and computer geeks? =)

PC can be used for small servers, but I would call that suited.
You can't warm-upgrade the processor for instance (You can do that on Sun SPARC servers for instance).
I don't get what you mean with the RISC and CICS thing. The G5 is a RISC. Intell processors are CISC. I agree RISC is better suited for servers because they have to be more scalable.
Sorry was comaring things incorectly ... traditionaly mac's moterolla processors were a RISK ... PC's are a CISC (as far as scaling up IBM archatecture they do fine) we handle 20 k people no problem

Full email ... roming desktops full front end support for just about anything you want to do ... loaded images servers. also running a 6 terabyte SAN no problem

All bassed off of IBM archatecture ...

Anyways sorry if I am not thinking clearly today ... lol

I should have known there was a reason I liked you....

What is it with me finding all the gay guys and computer geeks? =)
Ohhh you like me ;) lol and I find this out AFTER I put ur name up for the most respected NS'r

And yes I am

Sorry was comaring things incorectly ... traditionaly mac's moterolla processors were a RISK ... PC's are a CISC (as far as scaling up IBM archatecture they do fine) we handle 20 k people no problem

Full email ... roming desktops full front end support for just about anything you want to do ... loaded images servers. also running a 6 terabyte SAN no problem

All bassed off of IBM archatecture ...

Anyways sorry if I am not thinking clearly today ... lol
Actually the PPC processors are RISC. The G5 is a PPC processor. PPC is made by IBM BTW.
No problem you have a right to get drunk. I'm just a bit jealous because I still have to wait 1 hour or so before I can get high.

Actually the PPC processors are RISC. The G5 is a PPC processor. PPC is made by IBM BTW.
No problem you have a right to get drunk. I'm just a bit jealous because I still have to wait 1 hour or so before I can get high.
Lol I think I pointed out that IBM was making the G5 back in post 91 :) LOL but yeah they are the exception (great machine if expensive)

Anyway serious businesses don't use M$ products.

I guess Monster.com is not a serious business then. AFAIK, the only Unixes over here are some mail servers.

Aaanyway, back to the original topic ... I am a Perl and SQL geek.
Of course not the only languages I know and use.

Ohhh you like me ;)

Usually. =)

lol and I find this out AFTER I put ur name up for the most respected NS'r

Really? *goes to look*

And yes I am

Eh...you are what? A computer geek? I got that impression... =)