NationStates Jolt Archive

I have noticed not just on this site, but on plenty of different forums people have a habit that Christians should listen to the Old Testament... or people will quote it.

Let me clear some things up.

Only Jews listen to the OT! JEWS! J-E-W-S!

If you’re a non-Jew, you have to obey the 7 Noahide laws.

7 Noahide Laws Click! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide)

If you want to question the Jews about sacrificing and other 'weird' concepts... most of that stuff requires that the temple exists or that the person lives in Israel. Why do you think there are so many Jewish lawyers? Every passage has a loophole.

I'll give you a great example.

Misconception: By the year 2240 (6000 in Jewish calendar) if the Messiah doesn't come, it proves Judaism is wrong.

Which is wrong, it just proves we've been very bad Jews. X_X, Moshiach, can come at any time... he can arrive 20 billion years later when Earth is destroyed from the Sun's Nova.


Anyways my point is, unless your Jewish, stop quoting anything from the Old Testament... it is pointless. If you’re quoting it, to understand why that law exists that is fine.

Any questions?

I have noticed not just on this site, but on plenty of different forums people have a habit that Christians should listen to the Old Testament... or people will quote it.

Let me clear some things up.

Only Jews listen to the OT! JEWS! J-E-W-S!

If you’re a non-Jew, you have to obey the 7 Noahide laws.

7 Noahide Laws Click! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide)

If you want to question the Jews about sacrificing and other 'weird' concepts... most of that stuff requires that the temple exists or that the person lives in Israel. Why do you think there are so many Jewish lawyers? Every passage has a loophole.

I'll give you a great example.

Misconception: By the year 2240 (6000 in Jewish calendar) if the Messiah doesn't come, it proves Judaism is wrong.

Which is wrong, it just proves we've been very bad Jews. X_X, Moshiach, can come at any time... he can arrive 20 billion years later when Earth is destroyed from the Sun's Nova.


Anyways my point is, unless your Jewish, stop quoting anything from the Old Testament... it is pointless. If you’re quoting it, to understand why that law exists that is fine.

Any questions?

I have a quick question:

Who the hell are you to tell me what religious texts to believe and which ones not to?

I will believe any damn thing I want.

Whole sections of both the Old Testament and New Testament alike are little more than political documents(even assuming they have been translated accurately). So if you don't mind, I will decide for myself what to take on faith and what to question.

:D

I didn't say what faith you had to pick...

I am saying that Non-Christians do not have to adhere to the OT, if you are so inclined to listen to it, then you might as well do the 7 Noahide laws.

Otherwise what is the point of quoting the OT into Christianity? To me it is like saying Water and Fire is actually grass in disguise.

I didn't say what faith you had to pick...

I am saying that Non-Christians do not have to adhere to the OT, if you are so inclined to listen to it, then you might as well do the 7 Noahide laws.

Otherwise what is the point of quoting the OT into Christianity? To me it is like saying Water and Fire is actually grass in disguise.
when Christians stop quoting Leviticus at me as "proof" that being gay is a sin, then i will stop quoting it back at them to prove that eating shellfish is a sin.

I didn't say what faith you had to pick...

I am saying that Non-Christians do not have to adhere to the OT, if you are so inclined to listen to it, then you might as well do the 7 Noahide laws.

Otherwise what is the point of quoting the OT into Christianity? To me it is like saying Water and Fire is actually grass in disguise.

I'm a christian. As a christian, I believe that Christ was the son of God and died to give me and everyone else that have faith in him the chance for eternal life. That is the basis of my personal belief. So, obviosuly, I'm not a Jew. Because regardless of what jewish tenets I agree with, that one belief(christ was the son of God) is pretty much non-jewish.

However, when it comes to everything else, I reserve the right to decide for myself what God wants of me and what was the constructions of man. Whether that be from the Old Testament, or New is irrelevant.

My point is simply this: As a christian, I'll quote any part of the Old Testament I please. As will any other christian that believes it.

Umm...Christians typically follow the Bible. And, it just so happens that the Bible is divided into two sections, the Old and the New Testament. So, yeah, if you only want to regard the New Testament, then have at it. You have the right to decide what you believe in. It's just that if you discount the Old Testament, you disregard Genesis and the creation myth of Christianity, which a major part of all religions. Except for the Celts, but they were just weird.

If you’re a non-Jew, you have to obey the 7 Noahide laws.

Correction: this is what Jews believe non-Jews should believe. Not the same thing.
If you wish to stop Christians quoting the OT, then I suggest that you instead turn to Christian scripture; Acts 15 is all about what Gentile believers are supposed to do, and is notably short.

Misconception: By the year 2240 (6000 in Jewish calendar) if the Messiah doesn't come, it proves Judaism is wrong.

were the blazes did you get that figure from?

Now okay, the messiah has to turn up about 70 years before the destruction of the 2nd Temple, and be killed about 35 years later - check Daniel. And has to turn up once there's a non-Davidian king of Israel (Herod) as God promised David that his line would continue be the rulers until the Messiah turned up. But where are you getting the 2240/6000 figure from?(seriously, pls answer)

The Old Testament is just as much canon for christians as is the new testament and carries equal weight.

The Old Testament is just as much canon for christians as is the new testament and carries equal weight.
now THAT i have to disagree with. Christians constantly tell me about how material from the New Testament trumps contradictory information in the Old. clearly the NT takes precident for Christians.

Only Jews listen to the OT! JEWS! J-E-W-S!

If you’re a non-Jew, you have to obey the 7 Noahide laws.

7 Noahide Laws Click! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noahide)Ah come on, why do Jews get to be the only idiots to pay homage to a collection of fables and tall tales? Surely your average bible belt Christian Fundamentalist is stupid enough to wave it about and tell others to live by it's irrelevent sections.

And I read the Noahide laws. Crap, you got me on the Molech whorship.

There go my plans for next weekend.

now THAT i have to disagree with. Christians constantly tell me about how material from the New Testament trumps contradictory information in the Old. clearly the NT takes precident for Christians.
Yeah though like stated before by you ...thoes idiots still like to quote it to further their own purposes (gay marrige) though what pisses me off is when they selectivly quote it (while ignoring things in ajacent passages calling them "irrelevent"

Yeah though like stated before by you ...thoes idiots still like to quote it to further their own purposes (gay marrige) though what pisses me off is when they selectivly quote it (while ignoring things in ajacent passages calling them "irrelevent"
The beauty of religion! The option to ignore whatever you want!

The beauty of religion! The option to ignore whatever you want!
It must be so nice to not have to abide by logic

Another of my favorite arguments is when you finaly pull a damning quote from somewhere they use the SAME arguments you have been making for hours

Translation errors
Cultural context errors
Communication errors
Bias

So on so forth …

But when they make those arguments about a damning quote it MUST be true but if you make that same argument “you just don’t understand”

Translation errors
Cultural context errors
Communication errors
Bias
Yeah, It's a bitch. The only (partial) solution I've found is to insist on using a parallel Bible; having multiple translations gives an impartial aid.

And make sure that you are more interested in the truth than in twisting the data to fit your prejudices, of course!

Yeah, It's a bitch. The only (partial) solution I've found is to insist on using a parallel Bible; having multiple translations gives an impartial aid.
Even better would be to learn Hebrew. And Latin if the New Testament was written in that language originally. Cuts out the middle man. Or one of them.

when Christians stop quoting Leviticus at me as "proof" that being gay is a sin, then i will stop quoting it back at them to prove that eating shellfish is a sin.

*applauds*

Yeah, It's a bitch. The only (partial) solution I've found is to insist on using a parallel Bible; having multiple translations gives an impartial aid.

And make sure that you are more interested in the truth than in twisting the data to fit your prejudices, of course!
Not trying to twist it … usually trying to stem the tide of self-righteous hate that seems to emanate from certain people on certain topics. I would prefer the bible not be used at all honestly but as long as people make arguments based on it …

And on top of the multiple versions (which you have to be careful … some are just rehashes of King James) I find it helpful to consult some of the posters around here … a couple speak Hebrew and have worked themselves at translating to the extent they could. They a lot of times can shed new light on the ambiguities of translations in general … and on the specifics also

Even better would be to learn Hebrew. And Latin if the New Testament was written in that language originally. Cuts out the middle man. Or one of them.
Yup … grave_n_idle did that himself … I find it very enlightening to sometimes listen to his thoughts on the subject … as always not infallible and personal bias but he has a more known bias then some of the original translators … all and all a good resource to take of course with consideration

You know i've always wondered why people think the bible is a load of hooey, and now i know... people abuse it without needing it in the first place.

when Christians stop quoting Leviticus at me as "proof" that being gay is a sin, then i will stop quoting it back at them to prove that eating shellfish is a sin.

Fair enough, but now they can quote Noahide against you as it has exactly the same rule. :)

I'm a christian. As a christian, I believe that Christ was the son of God and died to give me and everyone else that have faith in him the chance for eternal life. That is the basis of my personal belief. So, obviosuly, I'm not a Jew. Because regardless of what jewish tenets I agree with, that one belief(christ was the son of God) is pretty much non-jewish.

Ok, just to repeat myself, if you are not jewish it is not necessary for you to live by the lifestyle, so there is no need to quote Levitus unless you are jewish. It is like me quoting the Koran because Islam was influenced by Christianity.

However, when it comes to everything else, I reserve the right to decide for myself what God wants of me and what was the constructions of man. Whether that be from the Old Testament, or New is irrelevant.

Fine do that... just please read! Don't quote the Old Testament against other people unless they are jewish themselves. It is unfair that you are destroying our religion just because your founder himself was Jewish.

My point is simply this: As a christian, I'll quote any part of the Old Testament I please. As will any other christian that believes it.

If you believe the Old Testament, then you are breaking many laws by not working on shabbat, by eating pork and unkosher animals, and probably a handful of others.

So in short, you do have the right to quote it, but you are not allowed to quote it against someone else in an effort to make them 'see the light'

Umm...Christians typically follow the Bible. And, it just so happens that the Bible is divided into two sections, the Old and the New Testament. So, yeah, if you only want to regard the New Testament, then have at it. You have the right to decide what you believe in. It's just that if you discount the Old Testament, you disregard Genesis and the creation myth of Christianity, which a major part of all religions. Except for the Celts, but they were just weird.

You do not have to discount the stories, just the laws. Well you can discount the stories as well, but that doesn't matter, but it does matter if you start quoting a law from a religion you do not practice.

Correction: this is what Jews believe non-Jews should believe. Not the same thing.
If you wish to stop Christians quoting the OT, then I suggest that you instead turn to Christian scripture; Acts 15 is all about what Gentile believers are supposed to do, and is notably short.

Gentile... does Gentile in NT mean Non-Christians or Non-jews?, if Non-Jews then they are adding stuff to the bible.

were the blazes did you get that figure from?

Now okay, the messiah has to turn up about 70 years before the destruction of the 2nd Temple, and be killed about 35 years later - check Daniel. And has to turn up once there's a non-Davidian king of Israel (Herod) as God promised David that his line would continue be the rulers until the Messiah turned up. But where are you getting the 2240/6000 figure from?(seriously, pls answer)

the messaigh has to turn up 70 years before the destruction?... i think it passed long ago then.

and the year 6000 symbolizes Friday, where we are supposed to be in the Messianic Era. That is the deadline to show if we were good little boys and girls. You may go ask a rabbi...but not the Ultra-Orthodox, ask a normal one.

Ah come on, why do Jews get to be the only idiots to pay homage to a collection of fables and tall tales? Surely your average bible belt Christian Fundamentalist is stupid enough to wave it about and tell others to live by it's irrelevent sections.

And I read the Noahide laws. Crap, you got me on the Molech whorship.

There go my plans for next weekend.

Pay homage to fables and tall tales? sorry not sure what branch of Judaism your thinking of, but we only pay homage to the real tales. Anyways how does it feel to know your related to chickens and rodents?


The beauty of religion! The option to ignore whatever you want!

Technically that applies only to Fundie Christians... They are allowed to quote whatever benefits them.




So from what i'm reading from you guys..... You are allowed to quote some passages and not others, because you feel like it. Makes perfect sense now.

Now if you excuse me i'm going to quote some Koranic passages against you and expect you to listen, regardless of the fact your not muslim.

MuhOre, the entire crux of my faith in God and Jesus Christ is that it's MY FAITH. It would be completely hypocritical of me to hold anybody to my beliefs but myself.

My opinion is that the worst thing that ever happened to faith is when people got together and started creating clubs.

Judaism has no club, I mean waht benefits do you get by being Jewish? Persecution? Dietary laws? No having fun or working on saturdays?

never heard of a club where all you get is negatives.

Judaism has no club, I mean waht benefits do you get by being Jewish? Persecution? Dietary laws? No having fun or working on saturdays?

never heard of a club where all you get is negatives.

Cool hats. Eight days of presents. Comedians.

But you forgot one major negative; Circumcision at age 13. :eek:

Pay homage to fables and tall tales? sorry not sure what branch of Judaism your thinking of, but we only pay homage to the real tales. Which ones are the real ones. The ones with 700 year old men, talking burning bushes, floods that cover the world, parted seas, people turning into salt pillars, men being made from clay, etc. or are there others?

I notice you said "real" but stopped short of saying "true".

So from what i'm reading from you guys..... You are allowed to quote some passages and not others, because you feel like it. Makes perfect sense now.

Now if you excuse me i'm going to quote some Koranic passages against you and expect you to listen, regardless of the fact your not muslim.Sure, quote whatever you want, we haven't had anything new to ridicule in a while.

But you forgot one major negative; Circumcision at age 13.


Errr... that's Islam. Jew's get circumsized at 8 days old.

Errr... that's Islam. Jew's get circumsized at 8 days old.

Oh, well that's okay then. :D

Judaism has no club, I mean waht benefits do you get by being Jewish? Persecution? Dietary laws? No having fun or working on saturdays?

never heard of a club where all you get is negatives.
A since of “belonging” it is a club and not all clubs are beneficial
They usually start that way but …


As for the quoting the OT … for Christians the OT is a basis of faith amended by the NT (oversimplification I know) but they have as much right as you to quote it

Which ones are the real ones. The ones with 700 year old men, talking burning bushes, floods that cover the world, parted seas, people turning into salt pillars, men being made from clay, etc. or are there others?

I notice you said "real" but stopped short of saying "true".

The Real and the True ones are one and the same. I would figure that you would understand that... i guess your a little slow.

And they stopped living past even 200 after the flood.

Sure, quote whatever you want, we haven't had anything new to ridicule in a while.

How about the great Darwin quote that we evolved from monkeys, us religious people mock it all the time, why don't you start with us?

Errr... that's Islam. Jew's get circumsized at 8 days old.
Islam? That's a new one for me. I think your conception of muslim circumcism is as screwed up as LG's is of Jews.

A since of “belonging” it is a club and not all clubs are beneficial
They usually start that way but …


As for the quoting the OT … for Christians the OT is a basis of faith amended by the NT (oversimplification I know) but they have as much right as you to quote it

Nothing will happen if your not a jew, you don't have to worry about fire and brimstone like you do in Christianity and Islam. Well.. actually purgatory is pretty vague in Judaism, some say you might have to endure a sort of spiritual pain for a bit to be cleansed of your sins. But i have no idea.

The Real and the True ones are one and the same. I would figure that you would understand that... i guess your a little slow.

And they stopped living past even 200 after the flood.



How about the great Darwin quote that we evolved from monkeys, us religious people mock it all the time, why don't you start with us?
Because the monkeys thing is more believable :)

Islam? That's a new one for me. I think you're conception of muslim circumcism is as screwed up as LG's is of Jews.


That's what i heard in papers and TV, and from apaprently the muslims themselves.

Unless they were being sarcastic, this it the truth to me. Is it wrong?

Because the monkeys thing is more believable

ROFL, i'd love to reply to this, but i g2g. I'll reply to the msg's tommorow i guess.

Nothing will happen if your not a jew, you don't have to worry about fire and brimstone like you do in Christianity and Islam. Well.. actually purgatory is pretty vague in Judaism, some say you might have to endure a sort of spiritual pain for a bit to be cleansed of your sins. But i have no idea.
Not saying because of a lack of punishment …

General since of belonging … and I am sure being a “jew” in its infant stages had its benefits … or maybe in hits peak rather then infancy

Now it is just general group identity and “spiritual” advantage

Still a club

That's what i heard in papers and TV, and from apaprently the muslims themselves.

Unless they were being sarcastic, this it the truth to me. Is it wrong?



ROFL, i'd love to reply to this, but i g2g. I'll reply to the msg's tommorow i guess.
Awww you got to go … no one to toe the ignorant line till then
( I know I cant stoop to blind faith even for the sake of an argument)

The Real and the True ones are one and the same. I would figure that you would understand that... i guess your a little slow.

And they stopped living past even 200 after the flood.Yeah Riiiiiight.

And I'm supposed to be the slow one.

How about the great Darwin quote that we evolved from monkeys, us religious people mock it all the time, why don't you start with us?Actually, mocking you would be a little redundant at this point ;) .

That's what i heard in papers and TV, and from apaprently the muslims themselves.

Unless they were being sarcastic, this it the truth to me. Is it wrong?

The Koran doesn't specify an age or even call for circumcision, although most muslims consider it essential. The most common age is 7 years, although it can range from infants to the age you specify or beyond.

The Koran doesn't specify an age or even call for circumcision, although most muslims consider it essential. The most common age is 7 years, although it can range from infants to the age you specify or beyond.
Hmmm learn something new every day

Then who gets the ol' snip-snip at 13? :confused:

Then who gets the ol' snip-snip at 13? :confused:Dunno. You thinkin' of cruisin' the local Jr. High and looking for volunteers?

Dunno. You thinkin' of cruisin' the local Jr. High and looking for volunteers?

Volunteers?!? What fun is it if they volunteer? :D