NationStates Jolt Archive

I know there have been threads already made on this and people have displayed their opinions but I've been on NS for only a few minutes each day in the last 10 days or so, hence this question. Personally, it's good to see the people that you can normally count as loyal and trusting to a President and his administraition in war time stand and ask why they don't have better equipment, given the danger of the missions they will be going on once they get into Iraq. Your thoughts?

I think it was a courageous thing for the soldier to do, and you can tell that Rumsfeld wasn't expecting it. And I think Rumsfeld's answer was pretty shitty as well.

He should have been shot, for spreading dissension in the ranks.

Oh well, I guess the military just doesn't mean anything anymore.

He should have been shot, for spreading dissension in the ranks.

Oh well, I guess the military just doesn't mean anything anymore.


If you're going to send soldiers into a country that dangerous, you should give them half decent equipment if you want them to do a decent job. And what happened to free speech?

He should have been shot, for spreading dissension in the ranks.

Oh well, I guess the military just doesn't mean anything anymore.
Actually if you didn't notice... the other soldiers already had the same dissension so they couldn't have gotten it just then.

And if you shoot our whole army...who is going to fight the war? Iraqis? Pfft. They can't fight by themselves.

If you're going to send soldiers into a country that dangerous, you should give them half decent equipment if you want them to do a decent job. And what happened to free speech?


Soldiers don't have free speech.

They have the equipment that they have. Tough shit. They are all volunteers. Stop whinging and inciting mutiny.

Soldiers don't have free speech.

They have the equipment that they have. Tough shit. They are all volunteers. Stop whinging and inciting mutiny.


What the fuck? They are Americans too and hence are entitled to freedom of speech. It's like if you send a guy out to catch a marlin and all you give him is a normal fishing rod. He should complain, that isn't enough to do the job. And give how dangerous the insurgents are, the troops should be equipped accordingly.

i like the tank defense

"You can have a tank with all the best armor, it can still be blown up"

or something to that effect, and that was used to justify the troops have bad armor and badly armored vehicles

Soldiers don't have free speech.

They have the equipment that they have. Tough shit. They are all volunteers. Stop whinging and inciting mutiny.
and we found our ass a candidate for iraqi cannon fodder

Soldiers don't have free speech.

They have the equipment that they have. Tough shit. They are all volunteers. Stop whinging and inciting mutiny.
As if we needed more proof that you're a punk ass chump with no sense of reality...

And by the way, you can only mutiny in the Navy. In the Army, it's called insubordination.

Why do you hold a press conference if not to answer questions? You can't say "What's on your mind?" and follow up with "You can't have that on your mind."

Why do you hold a press conference if not to answer questions? You can't say "What's on your mind?" and follow up with "You can't have that on your mind."
Well, Bush manages to do it all the time. Of course, after four years, his staff has gotten pretty good at keeping anyone who might ask an embarassing question out of the press conferences when he deigns to hold them so it doesn't come up much.

The soldier didn't really do much, his question was planted by a reporter embedded in his unit.

So I guess props to the media?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/09/rumsfeld.reporter/index.html

He should have been shot, for spreading dissension in the ranks.

Oh well, I guess the military just doesn't mean anything anymore.


Actually, given the rousing applause he got from the rest of the crowd even before Rummy answered, I would say that he was spreading unit cohesion by asking a question many of the other troops would have liked to ask. Griping is as old a tradition as is following orders you know.

Soldiers don't have free speech.

They have the equipment that they have. Tough shit. They are all volunteers. Stop whinging and inciting mutiny.

Soldiers still have the right to ask questions when invited to do so. And with the recent stop-loss practices, their status as "volunteers" is questionable in many cases.



But I hope that you are at least thankful that these brave men and women signed up as being willing to fight and die for the cause of allowing you the freedom of speech to shit on them.

Your gratitude, I'm sure, overwhelms them.

The soldier didn't really do much, his question was planted by a reporter embedded in his unit.

So I guess props to the media?

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/12/09/rumsfeld.reporter/index.html

Actually, the soldier and the reporter discussed this question and, I'm sure, the reporter helped frame it in the way it was presented.

The reaction from the crowd, however, was clearly indicitive that this was a question that they wanted the answer to - regardless of who helped write it.

But I hope that you are at least thankful that these brave men and women signed up as being willing to fight and die for the cause of allowing you the freedom of speech to shit on them.

Your gratitude, I'm sure, overwhelms them.

Zzzzzzing!

Right on da money. Thanks, Zepp. Always a pleasure.

I think Lacadameon is just playing Devils advocate. Noone can be that ignorant. Can they? He's just trying to get a rise ot of people. :mp5:

The only way any army can continue to adapt to changing environments is to act on feedback from the men actually involved in operations. If the people responsible for R&D, procurement and logistics don't get feedback, they can't do their job, and the whole thing falls to bits.

For example, if the air conditioning system gets clogged with sand, causing overheating, an electrical fire and the explosion of the tank (this happened to a British self-propelled gun during the Safe Sword exercise in Oman in 2001), you don't tell the crew "STFU! We don't care it's 60 deg C in there, deal with it! There's a war on, you know!" No, you ask the manufacturer to fit appropriate sand filters. It is not unpatriotic to suggest that a vehicle designed to meet winter warfare requirements in 1980s Poland might need modifications to deal with a doctrine of military intervention in the Middle East.

Rumsfeld basically tried to make an awkward moment pass, and ended up giving every appearance of total ignorance of what management of the military is all about.

Anr Rumsfeld said that they can't make the armored Humvees fast enough but the manufacturers disagree.

He should have been shot, for spreading dissension in the ranks.

Oh well, I guess the military just doesn't mean anything anymore.

Ohhh pfft... and you've spent how long in the military?

If you're going to send soldiers into a country that dangerous, you should give them half decent equipment if you want them to do a decent job. And what happened to free speech?

Members of the American armed forces are not allowed to criticise the president, members of congress or the government in general. If you dont like it thats too bad. I have been on active Duty for 2 years now and I have found this is true. Someone at our command was sent to Captains Mast for spreading an anti-kerry email using the command email system.

Captains Mast is non judicial punishment for you groundpounders out there.

He should have been shot, for spreading dissension in the ranks.

Oh well, I guess the military just doesn't mean anything anymore.

Did you see the news bit? Many soldiers cheered after he asked......

Soldiers don't have free speech.

They have the equipment that they have. Tough shit. They are all volunteers. Stop whinging and inciting mutiny.

Have you even served?

Members of the American armed forces are not allowed to criticise the president, members of congress or the government in general. If you dont like it thats too bad. I have been on active Duty for 2 years now and I have found this is true. Someone at our command was sent to Captains Mast for spreading an anti-kerry email using the command email system.

Captains Mast is non judicial punishment for you groundpounders out there.

Come on now. You know that is only policed in public situations or active work like email and fliers.

I have heard soldiers and sailors bitch about democratic presidents all the time.

Just because you're in the army doesn't automatically make you a robotic killing machine without any basic human rights, even that is the image that is generated through some of the media. You're just as huamn as everyone else. You have the right to know you're going to at least have adequate equipment when you put your ass on the line for some ungrateful countryman.

You probably also want your family to be reassured that ypu'll be safe when the insurgents are trying to shoot you up the ass for invading their country. You want to serve in the army, you want to fight for your country but you have no idea why the hell you're in Iraq, but all you know is you want good equipment and the knowledge that you won't die because you were driving a flimsey military jeep that was poorly armoured.

Mind you, I'm not in the army, but, a lot of it's just common sense.

Join the army, its great!*


*Upon joining you lose all rights to freedom of speech, press, and petition and any other number of general rights provided by the constitution

"Military justice is to justice wha military music is to music." - Groucho Marx

What the fuck? They are Americans too and hence are entitled to freedom of speech. It's like if you send a guy out to catch a marlin and all you give him is a normal fishing rod. He should complain, that isn't enough to do the job. And give how dangerous the insurgents are, the troops should be equipped accordingly.

actually they are not americans. they are waiting to finish their service in the army so they can finally become americans. don't tell me that the average white middle class american would ever think to go to war, not even as an officer. GWbush didn't do it, so shouldn't any repubblican, am i right?

the soldiers there die because this administration isn't able to gain control of the situation, and they don't have the right to complain, right, but they have to, otherwise they would be dead.

It's a fair point, as I understand it, a fair few soldiers in the US military are actually green card holders from Mexico and other places, and don't have full citizenship yet.

Did you see the news bit? Many soldiers cheered after he asked......


Exactly. Inspiring mutiny. He should be shot. As an example to others who want to "voice" there opinion.

When I was in the military there was two things I would not tolerate in my command:

1. Backchat

2. Comabat fatigue.

3. Dissent in the ranks.

4. Arithmetic.

Lacadaemon, could you please stop posting crap just to get a rise out of provoking people? Ever so kind. Cheers.

As if we needed more proof that you're a punk ass chump with no sense of reality...

And by the way, you can only mutiny in the Navy. In the Army, it's called insubordination.

Wrong.

Try again.

Lacadaemon, could you please stop posting crap just to get a rise out of provoking people? Ever so kind. Cheers.


Okay.

The last thing was posted after I saw this. Alright.

Exactly. Inspiring mutiny. He should be shot. As an example to others who want to "voice" there opinion.

When I was in the military there was two things I would not tolerate in my command:

1. Backchat

2. Comabat fatigue.

3. Dissent in the ranks.

4. Arithmetic.
That's four things. :D

actually they are not americans. they are waiting to finish their service in the army so they can finally become americans. don't tell me that the average white middle class american would ever think to go to war, not even as an officer. GWbush didn't do it, so shouldn't any repubblican, am i right?

the soldiers there die because this administration isn't able to gain control of the situation, and they don't have the right to complain, right, but they have to, otherwise they would be dead.


no offense of course but i am currently in the marine corps and i am an "average middle class white american" not to mention not an officer. and i would (will) gladly go to war for my country and if need be die for it.

Exactly. Inspiring mutiny. He should be shot. As an example to others who want to "voice" there opinion.

When I was in the military there was two things I would not tolerate in my command:

1. Backchat

2. Comabat fatigue.

3. Dissent in the ranks.

4. Arithmetic.

Obviously... and when did you get your big chicken dinner?

That's four things. :D

Psst! Look at number 4 again! ;)

Wrong.

Try again.

If you know, then why don't you tell him? Do you know it yourself?

Exactly. Inspiring mutiny. He should be shot. As an example to others who want to "voice" there opinion.

When I was in the military there was two things I would not tolerate in my command:

1. Backchat

2. Comabat fatigue.

3. Dissent in the ranks.

4. Arithmetic.

I'm sorry but I have to give you the leary eye. You don't sound like a commander. I have been around them(relatives and goverment days).

So give the obvious if you were......

Hooah :d !

Wrong.

Try again.

Wrong, try reading UCMJ Subchapter X, 894.94-a-1.) again. You would have a tough time charging him with mutiny.


(Any person subject to this chapter who) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;


And once again, when exactly did you get your big chicken dinner?

Am I the only person who sees the incredible and tragic irony of asking our troops to put their lives on the line to preserve our Constitution --including freedom of speech -- and then tell them that they themselves don't have those rights? If anyone deserves a right to free speech, it's those who are risking their hides to preserve our rights.

When you add in the questionable nature of our business in Iraq, the horrible way Rummy has conducted himself and dealt with the various issues that have arisen as a result of this war (too few troops, poor equipment, questionable tactics, attempted cover-ups/burying the prison scandal for months, etc., etc.), and the way our troops have been sold a bill of goods with regards to forced extensions of service because Rummy wants to engage in this fiasco with a "leaner army"...well, sorry to carry on, but my blood boils. (And Bush wants him to stay on because he's doing a "good job"? Has anyone ever done a worse job?)

I love how the left and the press only give a shit about soldiers when it is damaging to Republicans and the president. otherwise, they couldn't care less about us.

I love how the left and the press only give a shit about soldiers when it is damaging to Republicans and the president. otherwise, they couldn't care less about us.

Ewwwww I do love a good consipiracy theory!

Tell us more!

Captains Mast is non judicial punishment for you groundpounders out there.
So says Mr. "I have a nametag on my ass" :D

I love how the left and the press only give a shit about soldiers when it is damaging to Republicans and the president. otherwise, they couldn't care less about us.
I love how you make completely bullshit statements like that and then act as though you're morally superior. If the left--as you so inanely describe them--really didn't care about you, they wouldn't have protested this stupid fucking war so loudly and for so long. You just don't get it--we don't want you to go to war because we don't want you to be killed so someone's approval ratings will go up three points. We truly believe you should only go to war when it's absolutely necessary, not just because the limp-dick in charge wants to play soldier.

he's got guts, i'll give him that; but he has no or very little respect. whether he likes it or not he must obey all orders passed down to him unless they are in violation of the Code of Military Justice. if he has no intention of doing so then why did he even join the military?

As for not wanting to participate in bringing freedom to the Iraqi or any other people he must not care very much for what our country was founded upon:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

And what happened to free speech?

Such things don't apply to the military. They live by different rules once they put the uniform on.

I love how you make completely bullshit statements like that and then act as though you're morally superior. If the left--as you so inanely describe them--really didn't care about you, they wouldn't have protested this stupid fucking war so loudly and for so long. You just don't get it--we don't want you to go to war because we don't want you to be killed so someone's approval ratings will go up three points. We truly believe you should only go to war when it's absolutely necessary, not just because the limp-dick in charge wants to play soldier.

Once again, a member of the left doesn't grasp what the other side is saying. The soldiers don't want you telling them that they're wrong. They don't want you blaming their leaders as if you know better than the ruler of the free world. They want, and deserve, your support and respect. Protesting this war doesn't make you a better person or a better American. It makes you a loudmouth.

he's got guts, i'll give him that; but he has no or very little respect. whether he likes it or not he must obey all orders passed down to him unless they are in violation of the Code of Military Justice. if he has no intention of doing so then why did he even join the military?

As for not wanting to participate in bringing freedom to the Iraqi or any other people he must not care very much for what our country was founded upon:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson
Did he say he wasn't going to obey orders? Did he say, "Get us some armor or I'm not goin' out anymore?" Did he drop his gun and walk away? No, he was told he could ask questions and he asked an important one. Why is it wrong for someone who has to carry out the orders to point out what they need to do the job they're asked to do?

Once again, a member of the left doesn't grasp what the other side is saying. The soldiers don't want you telling them that they're wrong. They don't want you blaming their leaders as if you know better than the ruler of the free world. They want, and deserve, your support and respect. Protesting this war doesn't make you a better person or a better American. It makes you a loudmouth.
Talk about not getting what the other side is saying. Christ O'mighty. Pull your head out of Sixties retro-spectives. We're not saying that the soldiers are wrong, we're saying that the leaders who are using thier lives frivolously are wrong. Protesting and speaking out against the war is being active in the DEMOCRACY, or did you think that freedom of speech was so you could get porn?

he's got guts, i'll give him that; but he has no or very little respect. whether he likes it or not he must obey all orders passed down to him unless they are in violation of the Code of Military Justice. if he has no intention of doing so then why did he even join the military?

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson

Actually as i saw it the question was asked fairly respectfully. It was a q and a for the troops, he respectfully asked about why this was a fubar situation. Just because it makes Rummy look like a freaking incompetent that he doesnt have an answer doesnt make it disrespectful.

I see your Thomas Jefferson with a "A witty saying proves nothing"

I think Rumsfeld will get a stern lecture from Cheney and Rove when he gets back at just how NOT to hold a town hall, if he hasn't already. I like the flurry of activity that's happened since that little photo-op. And good on the soldier for asking the question, reagrdless of where it came from, and bad on Rumsfeld for such a piss-poor response.

Once again, a member of the left doesn't grasp what the other side is saying. The soldiers don't want you telling them that they're wrong. They don't want you blaming their leaders as if you know better than the ruler of the free world. They want, and deserve, your support and respect. Protesting this war doesn't make you a better person or a better American. It makes you a loudmouth.

Maybe one day in the military you will die, if you are in the military, maybe you will not die instantly but suffer alone. This is the kind of thing we Democrats want to stop, if you get a thrill out of killing innocent people and than watching your fellow soldier die, than be my guest, we wont protest this war, no matter how bad it is to Americas credibility.

I got it. Put Rummy in an unarmoured vehicle and drive him around in Iraq. When he finds out it does not have armour and complains, complain back it is way the vehicle was provided by his army.

Once again, a member of the left doesn't grasp what the other side is saying. The soldiers don't want you telling them that they're wrong. They don't want you blaming their leaders as if you know better than the ruler of the free world. They want, and deserve, your support and respect. Protesting this war doesn't make you a better person or a better American. It makes you a loudmouth.Talk about not getting what the other side is saying. Christ O'mighty. Pull your head out of Sixties retro-spectives. We're not saying that the soldiers are wrong, we're saying that the leaders who are using thier lives frivolously are wrong. Protesting and speaking out against the war is being active in the DEMOCRACY, or did you think that freedom of speech was so you could get porn?
Nailed it in the head. And by the way, Thrakkon, you might think protesting this war might not make me a better American (it does, by the way), but it certainly makes me a smarter one simply because I didn't fall for the bullshit lies that Bush passed off on the American people who supported him.

Once again, a member of the left doesn't grasp what the other side is saying. The soldiers don't want you telling them that they're wrong. They don't want you blaming their leaders as if you know better than the ruler of the free world. They want, and deserve, your support and respect. Protesting this war doesn't make you a better person or a better American. It makes you a loudmouth.

Wow you are the appointed speaker for the enlisted?

Protesting this war is very american.

If soldiers are against protests, then they aren't defending the Consitituion.

Rummy was stupid in his responce. He could have said "I will look into it" and that would have ended it. Yet "When you go to war; you go with the army you have; not with the army you would like" Idiot that was over a year ago.

Ahh well.....

What the fuck? They are Americans too and hence are entitled to freedom of speech. It's like if you send a guy out to catch a marlin and all you give him is a normal fishing rod. He should complain, that isn't enough to do the job. And give how dangerous the insurgents are, the troops should be equipped accordingly.
I am glad he spoke up and know for a fact it was no meant as an anti-Bush or anti-war comment by him but I have to say that once you sign on the dotted line you have actally given up your rights....It is true...You can still vote but that is true.....You can not even claim the right of freedom of association...Check the wording of the contracts...

He must have been really pissed. After all, there he is, a National Guardsman, fighting a shooting war and unable to get out of doing his duty ... like the President did ...

I find it a little ironic about how the military is known to vote overwhelmingly Republican. In this case all I can say is: the military got the armaments and war they voted for, no point bitching about it now.

Yet "When you go to war; you go with the army you have; not with the army you would like" Not to mention: that really doesn't hold water since the administration decided when and where they went to war. If they weren't prepared enough they could have waited a year to build up arms.

Once again, a member of the left doesn't grasp what the other side is saying. The soldiers don't want you telling them that they're wrong. They don't want you blaming their leaders as if you know better than the ruler of the free world. They want, and deserve, your support and respect. Protesting this war doesn't make you a better person or a better American. It makes you a loudmouth.

So, "You don't get it because you're not a member of the party that started this war; I don't want you pointing out that I'm wrong, ESPECIALLY when I'm wrong. I don't want you mentioning that my leaders could even POSSIBLY be incorrect; I wish to live in utter and total ignorance of any and all other possible ways of doing anything.

I want and believe I deserve your unconditional (and I MEAN unconditional) willingness to let me die alone and afraid on the battlefield for no other reason than my commanders thought it ever so slightly inconvenient for them to bother armoring my vehicle in the middle of a war zone.

Respect my willingness to lay down and die without complaint for a cause that is vaugely defined and changes often with the shifting of poitical winds. Pointing out that this campaign is poorly managed by disinterested leaders who are getting good men killed and refusing to do anything about it does not make you better than a man perfectly willing to die for no reason at all (myself)."

Is that what you were trying to say? Because that's what the world seems to hear. You are unimpressive in your defense of the silent suffering of our military men and women. They can suffer in silence on an induvidual basis if they want; but I for one want them alive, unhurt, and justly rewarded for their sacrifices. I don't want them ignored and left to die in an unarmored vehicle because YOU don't like people mentioning blatant mismanagment.

Come to think of it, I should probably be indignant that you would even concive of covering up the horrible situation of your comrades just so your poitical leaders don't look as bad as they are...Yeah, I really should be.

Originally Posted by Lacadaemon
Exactly. Inspiring mutiny. He should be shot. As an example to others who want to "voice" there opinion.

When I was in the military there was two things I would not tolerate in my command:

1. Backchat

2. Comabat fatigue.

3. Dissent in the ranks.

4. Arithmetic.

Really...

What rank did Lacedaemon achieve?


w/s

Major,
Paratroops,
retired.

And while someone seems so fond of putting Jefferson quotes in his signature (and then speak in manners to which Jefferson likely would have cursed him out for):

"The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted
freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be
submitted to." --Thomas Jefferson

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not
warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit
of resistance?" --Thomas Jefferson

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain
occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often
be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at
all." --Thomas Jefferson

"There is... an artificial aristocracy founded on wealth and
birth, without either virtue or talents... The artificial
aristocracy is a mischievous ingredient in government, and
provision should be made to prevent its ascendency." --Thomas
Jefferson

"Difference of opinion leads to enquiry, and enquiry to truth; and
I am sure...we both value too much the freedom of opinion
sanctioned by our Constitution, not to cherish its exercise even
where in opposition to ourselves." --Thomas Jefferson

"The opinions of men are not the object of civil government, nor
under its jurisdiction." --Thomas Jefferson

"Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle."
--Thomas Jefferson

Nailed it in the head. And by the way, Thrakkon, you might think protesting this war might not make me a better American (it does, by the way), but it certainly makes me a smarter one simply because I didn't fall for the bullshit lies that Bush passed off on the American people who supported him. :rolleyes:
Wow, you are completly in a deluded world of your own. Protesting the war does not make you a better American, it just makes you an American. It doesn't make you smarter than anyone else, just because you insist on being loud, obnoxoius and obtuse. Take you "smarter than thou" attitude and stick wher the sun don't shine. You just as big a fool as everyone else for accepting the moveon.org line hook, line and sinker.