NationStates Jolt Archive

It occurred to me last evening as I contemplated why some are so opposed to the idea of God as a benevolent, caring God who has the best interest of His creation in mind and that His law and leading is always in the best interest of His creatures, particularly us.

As I pondered, the following verse came to mind, "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." I wondered to myself, if those so opposed to God don't perhaps carry with them a mentality that says something along the lines of, "I know what is best for my life. I'll do what I want, when I want and how I want. I don't want anyone or any "God" telling me what to do nor do I need guidance from anyone or anything."

I know I personally have this internal struggle from time to time, my will or God's. When my will wins, I've almost always regreted, sometimes more than others granted and usually not immidiately, but it eventually becomes clear that had I chosen God's will, at least to the best of my knowledge, my life would have been a more pleasant place to live.

Anyway, I interpret that willfullness to follow my own way as pride. What in the world could possibly give me the notion that I know better what is in my best interest than the being that created me to begin with? And, beyond that, what makes me think that I could know or understand my world or the universe or existance, better than the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God of the universe?

Now I suppose that you have to believe that God exists and has those characteristics before any of that makes sense. It also requires a level of faith that says what feels good in the immidiate is not necessarily in my best interest or the best interest of creation as a whole. Anyway, it still seems to me that this is tide up in the issue of pride and that willfully giving control of our lives to someone we can see or measure with science, though it does provide ample evidence of his existance.

I'm sure those of you who don't believe will attack this post haste, but consider for a moment if it isn't personal pride that is the central reason why.

i've considered your theory, and i have to say that it is not the case with me. i fully admit all my limitations and flaws, i know that i make mistakes, and i am completely aware that i often don't know what is really best for myself. my lack of belief in God is based on completely different issues, and i wouldn't believe or disbelieve simply because of my personal feelings or desires as to the existence of God. there is no more reason for me to believe in God than there is for me to believe in the invisible magical tigers that surround all of us and control us with rays shot from their stripes, so i afford both God and the tigers equal levels of consideration. my personal confidence or belief in my own abilities doesn't factor into that.

Barring that, g.d created us with needs, wants, and free will. He wants us to live our lives as we see fit. We honor him by trying to abide by commandments, but it's more or less a guideline to living in civilized society we have created along with any civic or penal codes.

Whatever you're doing, you're doing it for His greater glory. Yeah, even the sinning. If g.d had wanted us to live our lives in repent over gluttonny or having premarital sex, he wouldn't have given us such needs.

/eats kosher, though. no mad cow for me!

There should be noted a great difference between being "anti-God" and simply being an atheist. I'm not anti-God, I don't believe, therefore there is no mythical force to protest.

I'm very anti- to the people who preach it and try to cram it down my throat. I'm anti- to the people who try to legislate its observance. I'm anti- to the people who get offended or angry with me because I refuse to share in their mental illness. Most faiths profess compassion and acceptance, but rare is the "true follower" I've met that displays either trait when confronted with the reality that I've managed to get this far just fine without needing an outside authority to dictate my every move and choice.

It occurred to me last evening as I contemplated why some are so opposed to the idea of God as a benevolent, caring God who has the best interest of His creation in mind and that His law and leading is always in the best interest of His creatures, particularly us.

As I pondered, the following verse came to mind, "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." I wondered to myself, if those so opposed to God don't perhaps carry with them a mentality that says something along the lines of, "I know what is best for my life. I'll do what I want, when I want and how I want. I don't want anyone or any "God" telling me what to do nor do I need guidance from anyone or anything."

I know I personally have this internal struggle from time to time, my will or God's. When my will wins, I've almost always regreted, sometimes more than others granted and usually not immidiately, but it eventually becomes clear that had I chosen God's will, at least to the best of my knowledge, my life would have been a more pleasant place to live.

Anyway, I interpret that willfullness to follow my own way as pride. What in the world could possibly give me the notion that I know better what is in my best interest than the being that created me to begin with? And, beyond that, what makes me think that I could know or understand my world or the universe or existance, better than the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God of the universe?

Now I suppose that you have to believe that God exists and has those characteristics before any of that makes sense. It also requires a level of faith that says what feels good in the immidiate is not necessarily in my best interest or the best interest of creation as a whole. Anyway, it still seems to me that this is tide up in the issue of pride and that willfully giving control of our lives to someone we can see or measure with science, though it does provide ample evidence of his existance.

I'm sure those of you who don't believe will attack this post haste, but consider for a moment if it isn't personal pride that is the central reason why.
personally, i dont have the attitude of I know what is best for my life. I'll do what I want, when I want and how I want. I don't want anyone or any "God" telling me what to do nor do I need guidance from anyone or anything.. for me, and im sure this is true of a number of people, its not a case of thinking I know better than god, as you put it, just that i simply do not believe in god.
i cannot imagine putting myself in a position where i would, thus cannot comment on your arguement.

What in the world could possibly give me the notion that I know better what is in my best interest than the being that created me to begin with?
You may suppose that God ultimately created you, but even if this is true, it is your parents that biologically brought about your conception, birth and almost certainly upbringing. I know that despite immense respect and love for my parents, there are times when I disagree with what they feel are in my best interests. For example, my mother is fervently against the possibility of me joining the police, given that here in NI it's still a dangerous job. I however am seriously considering it because the work is challenging, interesting and, for me, better than your average day job. I really feel that a police job is more in my best interests than what my mother postulates. So, am I wrong? Given that my mother, at least in part, created me, should I forget all my own ideas, principles and choices and do what she tells me, since she will obviously and definitively know what's in my best interests better than I do?

for me, and im sure this is true of a number of people, its not a case of thinking I know better than god, as you put it, just that i simply do not believe in god.
i cannot imagine putting myself in a position where i would, thus cannot comment on your arguement.

What would you think about God when you find out God is open and understanding to your truth whatever it may be? What if you found out that God was the one that didn't judge people, and people are the ones that enjoy doing that? What if you found out God has "no formalities & "no labels" and people were the only ones to have such? What if you found out that it was God that is all open & understanding and it was the people that assumed all of the rules in the first place?

I like the way Bottle put it--no surprise--and so I'll only add this. For a long time, I lived my life according to laws and tenets that I believed God had set down for me, all based on the premise that my reward for being self-sacrificing and obedient would be eternal life in the future. Eventually I came to the conclusion that nothing about that future life was certain, and that the only life I could count on living was the one I was currently in. Contrary to what many churchgoers will tell you, that didn't turn me into a nihilist--in fact, it gave me an even greater appreciation for what I'm experiencing right now and a desire to live my life to the fullest. It's not a question of whether I know better than God--even assuming he or she or it exists--it's a matter of taking responsibility for one's own decisions and both accepting the joy and suffering the guilt for those decisions.

I like the way Bottle put it--no surprise...I came to the conclusion that nothing about that future life was certain, and that the only life I could count on living was the one I was currently in. Contrary to what many churchgoers will tell you, that didn't turn me into a nihilist--in fact, it gave me an even greater appreciation for what I'm experiencing right now and a desire to live my life to the fullest. It's not a question of whether I know better than God--even assuming he or she or it exists--it's a matter of taking responsibility for one's own decisions and both accepting the joy and suffering the guilt for those decisions.
Have to voice my strong agreement with both this and Bottle's earlier statement. Couldn't have put it better :)

What would you think about God when you find out God is open and understanding to your truth whatever it may be? What if you found out that God was the one that didn't judge people, and people are the ones that enjoy doing that? What if you found out God has "no formalities & "no labels" and people were the only ones to have such? What if you found out that it was God that is all open & understanding and it was the people that assumed all of the rules in the first place?
id think god was an intrinsically good thing. i would, for want of a better word (been down the pub ;)), like god. That still doesnt change the fact i don't believe he exists.
all im saying is that because i dont believe in god - nothing to do with what i think about god - i dont think my opinion is valid in this debate.

It occurred to me last evening as I contemplated why some are so opposed to the idea of God as a benevolent, caring God who has the best interest of His creation in mind and that His law and leading is always in the best interest of His creatures, particularly us.

...

I'm sure those of you who don't believe will attack this post haste, but consider for a moment if it isn't personal pride that is the central reason why.

You make a number of assumptions. Many people subscribe to a concept of God, but the vast majority of subscribers in the world expressly don't subscribe to the Christian avatar, Jehovah. Jehovah's laws and his 'leadership' are perhaps in the best interests of his own adherents, but what of the rest of us? There are those among us who have extremely personal relationships with our concepts of God. I call into question the notion of relegating my own relationship with God to a back-burner in order to venerate a version of God that I don't subscribe to, a version of God who twice-removed from my daily existence.

God has told me directly that we don't need any middlemen muscling in on our relationship - people who would claim to interpret God's 'will'. The only things God has ever asked of me is to enjoy this thing some call Creation, others Spacetime, or any of a multitude of ways to describe this place in which we dwell. There are one or two other things we've discussed, but this...'directive' is paramount.

Caring...benevolent...yes, those are aspects of my God that definitely carry over. But my God doesn't 'lead' anybody. My God leaves that to humanity. There are no demands upon me, save that I relish this time here, and find ways to help free my fellows from the chains of their own making. Fear, mistrust, loathing and predation.

I don't need a book to do this. I don't need a prophet, or a messiah, a priest, a guru or a king. God doesn't need any of those either. God speaks directly to our hearts, our minds, our souls - we are in a pepetual state of low-level mutual awareness. And why not? We are made of the same elements as this place in which we dwell, made by God's own hand. We are all of God - and it is good that some of us doubt. Doubt is much-loved by my concept of God, so much so that I now regard Faith as anathema to God.

Faith is a dead-end street, an easy out for those who choose not to explore and enjoy this sensory feast that God has lain out for us. My God is deeply saddened by those who would throw away their chance to live - to directly experience all the possibilities - in order to lead unexamined lives accruing and retaining worthless capital, punctuated by the worst sort of once-weekly sycophancy.

Get up off your knees, get rid of your dusty old books, and go...do something. Anything. If you want to be closer to God, take the time to smell the flowers. And stop listening to what the middlemen say. They're in it for the money. God doesn't care about money. Or churches. Or any of the cumulative crap that's come to be associated with God over the last several thousand years.

Okay, so if you don't believe in the Bible or God this question is hard to apply to one's self. Yes, there are assumptions in this thought. I believe them to be true on the basis of the evidence I have experienced in my life. The main reason I brought this up was some of the arguments I've seen on other threads, where people claiming to believe in both God and Satan, have suggested that God is little more than a punitive Dictator. I've never encountered such venom toward God before in my life and have been looking for an explanation for their hatred.

I know that no one likes having God, no matter from what religious perspective, rammed down their throat. I hope I haven't come across that way. Clearly I believe in God and hold the Bible to be His inspired word/guide book for life to humanity. This is at the very foundation of who I am as a person and having studied major world religions (minor in religion) as well as both creation and evolutionary science combined with my personal experience of God, for me there is more than sufficient evidence upon which to base my faith.

In that search of God's Word, I have come to believe that free will is an absolute necessity to God's perfect government. To force my religion on some one completely flies in the face of that and as a result I would never advocate for legislated religion and in fact am quite fearful of that possibility myself. We really don't need a repeat of the Dark Ages.

However, in my study and personal experience, I have found in subjecting my will to that of God out of love for what He has done for me to have been the happiest, healthiest most guilt free way of life. In the Bible, I also see this as a necessity in terms of maintaining an eternal relationship with God. It occured to me that those who are so angry at God may well be blaming him for the negative natural consequences of living in deliberate and intentional defiance of Him. That doesn't apply to people who don't believe in Him of course, as you can't live in intentional defiance of something you don't believe exists.

Okay, so if you don't believe in the Bible or God this question is hard to apply to one's self. Yes, there are assumptions in this thought. I believe them to be true on the basis of the evidence I have experienced in my life. The main reason I brought this up was some of the arguments I've seen on other threads, where people claiming to believe in both God and Satan, have suggested that God is little more than a punitive Dictator. I've never encountered such venom toward God before in my life and have been looking for an explanation for their hatred.

I know that no one likes having God, no matter from what religious perspective, rammed down their throat. I hope I haven't come across that way. Clearly I believe in God and hold the Bible to be His inspired word/guide book for life to humanity. This is at the very foundation of who I am as a person and having studied major world religions (minor in religion) as well as both creation and evolutionary science combined with my personal experience of God, for me there is more than sufficient evidence upon which to base my faith.

In that search of God's Word, I have come to believe that free will is an absolute necessity to God's perfect government. To force my religion on some one completely flies in the face of that and as a result I would never advocate for legislated religion and in fact am quite fearful of that possibility myself. We really don't need a repeat of the Dark Ages.

However, in my study and personal experience, I have found in subjecting my will to that of God out of love for what He has done for me to have been the happiest, healthiest most guilt free way of life. In the Bible, I also see this as a necessity in terms of maintaining an eternal relationship with God. It occured to me that those who are so angry at God may well be blaming him for the negative natural consequences of living in deliberate and intentional defiance of Him. That doesn't apply to people who don't believe in Him of course, as you can't live in intentional defiance of something you don't believe exists.

1)I think a lot of the venom that you see directed toward God is directed toward god-as-defined-by-fundamentalists-who-would-have-everyone-follow- the-rules-and-regulations-of-god-as-interpreted-by-said-fundamentalists.

Acting in certain "non-Christian" ways will have negative consequences in a largely Christian society because a)some of the things considered Christian are true of most human societies and have been incorporated into religious and secular belief structures alike because of their general harmfullness to the shape that most societies have taken and b)the attitudes of society toward something that is and of itself non-harmful can inflict negative consequences. If one believes in God and acts in intentional defiance of said beliefs, the it would make sense that a certain amount of guilt would be a natural consequence of that.

My idea of 'god' is very in line with Dobbs' (however Dobbs arrived at that view). It doesn't require a 'subjecting of the will' to anything. It does however, require a reasoned exercise of the will and sometimes denying immediate gratification and personal wants because of the knowledge that all action will have consequences on both the self and all around it (and to some extent on the entire universe itself).

I have a considerable amount of respect, admiration and love for God. It's His fan clubs that annoy me. :p