NationStates Jolt Archive

I find it odd that so many people say that Satan is evil, but going by the Bible, all Satan did was:

-Get King David to take a census, which was followed by God killing 20,000-some people...oddly enough, earlier in the Bible, that same story was told, only God had David take the census. Hmm...
-Torment Job...with permission from God (...actually, I think GOD did that because Satan dared him to. Either way...)
-Tempt Jesus


That's all that I can remember, but it's pretty sad compared to what God's done:
-He routinely ordered human sacrifice
-He killed 42 children just because they taunted a prophet.
-He created evil (see Isaiah 45:7)
-He killed 15,000-some people for questioning Moses, then killed those who thought it was too harsh with the plauge
-He gave haughty women scabs and uncovered their private parts
-Gave permisssion to Satan to torment Job/Tormented Job because Satan dared him to
-Encouraged war and violence




Hmm.

He didn't do anything wrong the poor guy.

He was the most beautiful of God's archangels, and became so consumed with his own arrogance that he believed he was better than God and tried to take over or something.

That's a rather boiled down version of it...

hello, he didnt do crap more htan likely, god was a pissy man. he massacred people cuz he felt like it, god probably got tired of satan going "dude you dont gotta do that"

He didn't do anything wrong the poor guy.
Satan is a chick!

Are you one of dark lords minions too? Well done brother, its good to be bad. :cool:

Satan is a chick!
Oooohhh...now I get it. She didn't want to give God head. So she was cast out.

I seem to recall something about a naked couple and a certain tree... :cool:

uncovered their private parts
I can live with that ;)

Okay to elaborate on what I said at first...

Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth was (Job 38:4-7), Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden or a few years, Scripture does not specifically say. Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.

Likely he was the highest of all the angels. He was persuasive enough to convince one-third of the angels to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:4). Even after his fall from heaven, not even Michael the archangel dared to confront him without the Lord’s help (Jude 9). Satan is the “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 2:2b). Believers are exhorted “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7b).

I don't know why I'm answering this =/ I'm not even Christian lol. I've just looked into Christian religion alot...

Whispers: neither of them exist.

I think our perception of Satan has changed, post-Milton. Before Paradise Lost he was one of God's minions who's job was to carry out the sort of work God didn't want to be associated with - Satan was a sort of Ollie North to God's Reagan (Deniability is all important when you have a universe to run). As a result, Satan got a bad rep and was seen as the source of all evil. In fact the true villan is this self-appointed God thing, who runs the whole show. He's the ultimate villan.

Satan didn't do anything. He's actually a fictional character invented by the Church in the first several decades after the death of Jesus to scare the ignorant masses into accepting the new Christian religion. On occassion he is described or depicted with the lower half and horns of a goat, but this is merely propaganda against the Celtic deity of the woodlands, Cernunnos, aka Pan to the ancient Greeks. They used this image to convince the resident pagans that their religon was wrong, and their god was evil. After that, he evolved into a red-bodied, goat-legged, bat-winged, pitchfork-bearing demon with horns and a pointy tail.

Crazy, huh?

See what the christians have it all wrong about it ... God is a pissy little kid, and well " Lucifer" We'll use his proper name not that evil one christians gave him/her to make him seem worse. Lucifer = Bringer of light.
From this we can therefore see that God really = Satan because like the pissy little kid he was he didn;'t like it that Lucifer was just so much cooler than him. So meh .. Kick him out so forth and so on .. Christians worship the most evil and hateful god in existance and force their incorrect fanatical religious beliefs on the rest of the world .. Yay .. Go Christians ... fucking retards...

Anyways .. all this is based on the fact that there are infact gods ... Being an Athiest .. I would say no ... and therefore this entire thing is irrelevant to me =P

Also .. as a side note ... Hell is run by a committee...

I find it odd that so many people say that Satan is evil, but going by the Bible, all Satan did was:

-Get King David to take a census, which was followed by God killing 20,000-some people...oddly enough, earlier in the Bible, that same story was told, only God had David take the census. Hmm...
-Torment Job...with permission from God (...actually, I think GOD did that because Satan dared him to. Either way...)
-Tempt Jesus


That's all that I can remember, but it's pretty sad compared to what God's done:
-He routinely ordered human sacrifice
-He killed 42 children just because they taunted a prophet.
-He created evil (see Isaiah 45:7)
-He killed 15,000-some people for questioning Moses, then killed those who thought it was too harsh with the plauge
-He gave haughty women scabs and uncovered their private parts
-Gave permisssion to Satan to torment Job/Tormented Job because Satan dared him to
-Encouraged war and violence




Hmm.

Where to begin. Read Rev. 12. You have grossly misinterpret Is. 45:7. God pointing out to the leader of the rebelion that His argument about it being impossible to live according to His law, was in fact being carried out in Job's life. Tormenting Job was Satan's evil idea. When God did engage in the destruction of human life, it was always as a result of their cutting themselves off from Him or disrespecting His Divine authority and he mercifully allowed them the just reward for their behavior.

As for child sacrifices, the only time this was ever the case is when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and upon seeing Abrahams willingness to follow Him faithfully, stopped this from being carried out. Abraham proved truly that he was able to keep the first great commandment and that it had top priority in his life.

Did Satan really tempt Adam? I don't think so. This is a quite common misinterpretation of the Genesis; such as it is nowhere mentioned that the Fruit of Knowledge (not sure about the translation) was an apple.
There was another thing not mentioned by Chansu: God eradicated the whole Earth's population except Noah and his Arch during the Big Flood... Or think about the twelve plaques of Egypt.

Actually, the Old Testament's God was quite merciless when it came to punishment. Most people seem to forget that.

As a matter of fact, I'm no Christian, either.

Where to begin. Read Rev. 12. You have grossly misinterpret Is. 45:7. God pointing out to the leader of the rebelion that His argument about it being impossible to live according to His law, was in fact being carried out in Job's life. Tormenting Job was Satan's evil idea. When God did engage in the destruction of human life, it was always as a result of their cutting themselves off from Him or disrespecting His Divine authority and he mercifully allowed them the just reward for their behavior.

As for child sacrifices, the only time this was ever the case is when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and upon seeing Abrahams willingness to follow Him faithfully, stopped this from being carried out. Abraham proved truly that he was able to keep the first great commandment and that it had top priority in his life.
he also had a couple bears kill alot of annoying kids

Okay to elaborate on what I said at first...

Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth was (Job 38:4-7), Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden or a few years, Scripture does not specifically say. Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.

Likely he was the highest of all the angels. He was persuasive enough to convince one-third of the angels to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:4). Even after his fall from heaven, not even Michael the archangel dared to confront him without the Lord’s help (Jude 9). Satan is the “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 2:2b). Believers are exhorted “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7b).

I don't know why I'm answering this =/ I'm not even Christian lol. I've just looked into Christian religion alot...


For not being a Christian, that was pretty well said. It is nice to know that all non-believers are not ignorant of or bent on distorting what the Bible actually teaches.

Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift, and then what does He do, I swear for His own amusement, his own private, cosmic gag reel, He sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, don't swallow. Ahaha. And while you're jumpin' from one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughin' His sick, fuckin' ass off. He's a tight-ass. He's a sadist. He's an absentee landlord. Worship that? Never.

"Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven", is that it?

Why not? I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began. I've nurtured every sensation man's been inspired to have. I cared about what he wanted and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him, in spite of all his imperfections. I'm a fan of man. I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist.

Definately something to think about. Now...what movie's that from?

As for child sacrifices, the only time this was ever the case is when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and upon seeing Abrahams willingness to follow Him faithfully, stopped this from being carried out. Abraham proved truly that he was able to keep the first great commandment and that it had top priority in his life.

He was the original fundamentalist fanatic, you mean, willing to sacrifice the lives of others (Might have been a bit more reluctant to sacrifice his own, though) for the 'Glory' of God?

If you want to watch a good movie about Lucifer and his modus operadi, watch The Devil's Advocate. Minus the messed up eschatology at the end it is pretty accurate, though he's probably not the head of a law firm in NY.

He was the original fundamentalist fanatic, you mean, willing to sacrifice the lives of others (Might have been a bit more reluctant to sacrifice his own, though) for the 'Glory' of God?

If he was a fanatic, I'd like to be more fanatical then. Not that he didn't make his mistakes, but being a personal friend of God is a pretty special privilege.

For the record, anyone who thinks they have been given a special mission from God ... Is actualyl being misguided by Satan. Think about it. Why would God need happless humans to do his bidding? Why would God appear to some and not to others? Why is it so often the sad and lonely that God appears to? Why does God want these people to go forth and knock on other people's doors and bug other people and make them think that Christianity is the religion of fruitcakes?

BECAUSE THE VOICES THESE PEOPLE HEAR, THE VISIONS THEY HAVE, ARE OF SATAN.

Satan was God's most beautiful Angel. Satan has immense power, and was almost able to tempt Jesus. What chance does a feeble human have, if Satan tries to tempt him or her? How could a human distingush between God and Satan?

This argument works quite well when Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door. You look at them wild-eyed and say "Thank goodness you are here! Do you realise you are doing the Devil's work?"

They usually run for it, and never come back.

If he was a fanatic, I'd like to be more fanatical then. Not that he didn't make his mistakes, but being a personal friend of God is a pretty special privilege.

i fail to see what makes him any different from a suicide bomber in Israel, or Osama Bin Laden, for that matter. They all think they are doing God's work. And how can we say they aren't?

For the record, anyone who thinks they have been given a special mission from God ... Is actualyl being misguided by Satan. Think about it. Why would God need happless humans to do his bidding? Why would God appear to some and not to others? Why is it so often the sad and lonely that God appears to? Why does God want these people to go forth and knock on other people's doors and bug other people and make them think that Christianity is the religion of fruitcakes?

BECAUSE THE VOICES THESE PEOPLE HEAR, THE VISIONS THEY HAVE, ARE OF SATAN.

Satan was God's most beautiful Angel. Satan has immense power, and was almost able to tempt Jesus. What chance does a feeble human have, if Satan tries to tempt him or her? How could a human distingush between God and Satan?

This argument works quite well when Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door. You look at them wild-eyed and say "Thank goodness you are here! Do you realise you are doing the Devil's work?"

They usually run for it, and never come back.
If this is all true, than why does he need people to believe in Him?

Jesus was Satan, to make people believe in him rather than that pesky God

The topic post illustrates quite well why I hate God.

If you want a Satanist's POV (many of you don't, but different perspectives are always nice): When we were created and had finished our purpose (mining gold and acting as servants while they were here), God's side seeked to kill us, Satan's did not, the two split apart taking various angels and demons (who were once the same race, evolution on different energy techniques have changed them) with them. Thus was the division.

i fail to see what makes him any different from a suicide bomber in Israel, or Osama Bin Laden, for that matter. They all think they are doing God's work. And how can we say they aren't?

We can't say for sure, but the best test is whether or not they live according to the two great commandments or you can break it down to the 10 if you like as long as they are practiced in the spirit of the 2.

Definately something to think about. Now...what movie's that from?

Ah, Dogma, wasn't it? That movie told you all the problems atheists have with religion right in the face, without really act blasphemic...

If this is all true, than why does he need people to believe in Him?


Given the general way God has treated us, I don't think God cares what we do, particularly.

If this is all true, than why does he need people to believe in Him?

Jesus was Satan, to make people believe in him rather than that pesky God

He doesn't need people to believe in Him. He loves people and does everything in His power to get their attention so they don't seal their own eternal destruction. He sent His Son to take the punishment that you and I deserve.

Given the general way God has treated us, I don't think God cares what we do, particularly.
So Jesus might have been Satan?

Ah, Dogma, wasn't it? That movie told you all the problems atheists have with religion right in the face, without really act blasphemic...

No, someone already guessed it without really guessing it. It was Devil's Advocate...a really good movie.

He doesn't need people to believe in Him. He loves people and does everything in His power to get their attention so they don't seal their own eternal destruction. He sent His Son to take the punishment that you and I deserve.

For violating the rules that God made up in a game that God set up and that God umpires. But God doesn't need us to believe in God, God merely makes it a condition of our salvation that we do so. But that doesn't suggest God NEEDS our belief, no, not at all.

He doesn't need people to believe in Him. He loves people and does everything in His power to get their attention so they don't seal their own eternal destruction. He sent His Son to take the punishment that you and I deserve.
So, since Jesus no one is going to Hell anymore?

So, since Jesus no one is going to Hell anymore?

Since Jesus no one is going to hell against their will.

Since Jesus no one is going to hell against their will.
I thought all people go to hell against their will (it being a rather awful place and stuff)

Ah, Dogma, wasn't it? That movie told you all the problems atheists have with religion right in the face, without really act blasphemic...

Devil's Advocate, actually. And overall, I'd have to say that as far as that movie goes, I was more impressed by Connie Nielson's breasts than I was its take on the nature of good and evil.


As for child sacrifices, the only time this was ever the case is when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, and upon seeing Abrahams willingness to follow Him faithfully, stopped this from being carried out. Abraham proved truly that he was able to keep the first great commandment and that it had top priority in his life.

For one, he did kill the firstborn son of every child in Egypt, did he not? Even worse, if you look at the actual text, God is responsible for bringing about those deaths, not Pharoah, because it was God who hardened Pharoah's heart against Moses' entreaties, not Pharoah himself.

Moreover, on the part of the text itself, what does that say about God that the father of the Jewish people was perfectly willing to kill his only son simply because God asked it? If you ask me, it says that either the Bible is wrong and God never asked that of Abraham, or that Abraham is vying with God for the title of most despicable character in literary history.

For violating the rules that God made up in a game that God set up and that God umpires. But God doesn't need us to believe in God, God merely makes it a condition of our salvation that we do so. But that doesn't suggest God NEEDS our belief, no, not at all.

Given that He created us, loves us, provided everything necessary for our wellbeing only to be slapped in the face and then in spite of that gave His life to save those who desire to be saved, I'd say He has the right to make up what ever rules He wants. Particularly since they are always in our best interest, whether we know it or not, anyway.

I thought all people go to hell against their will (it being a rather awful place and stuff)

Actually, my first statement contains a slight inaccuracy. Since we chose to sin, though not before, eternal destruction is the default setting. Anyone who so desires can willfully accept Christ's substitutionary payment of the wages of sin and accept the "gift of God" which is "eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".

Seeing that no one's responded to the "bears killing kids" comment, I will.

firstly, the quote: 2 Kings 2:23

23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Firstly, I'd like to point out that Elisha, the person doing the walking, was being completely non-confrontational and the "children" were doing the antagonizing.
Secondly, the interpretation of "little children" is very VERY off, since it IS being translated from another language. The more accurate translation of this is "young men." and to justify this, the Hebrew for "children" (men between 12 and oh say...30) is used in 1 Kings 20:14-15 describing an ARMY.
OK... so? a bunch of "young men" were laughing at him, big deal.
I don't know about you, but if i saw 42 guys together making fun of me, I'd be very intimidated, seeing that there's 84 of their fists and only two of mine. Keep in mind that the text says "forty and two children" were mauled... it doesn't mention how many of them their were TOTAL... there could have been a hundred. But moving on...
By calling someone a "bald head" in that time, you were essentially calling them a leper (as in someone with an extremely contagious and fatal disease), and since Elisha was a prophet, they were essentially being disrespectful of God. So instead of this being a cosmic overeaction, when placed in the correct context it is a prudent move. Hope this cleared up the arguement.

~Z

Given that He created us, loves us, provided everything necessary for our wellbeing only to be slapped in the face and then in spite of that gave His life to save those who desire to be saved, I'd say He has the right to make up what ever rules He wants. Particularly since they are always in our best interest, whether we know it or not, anyway.

If we follow the Eden myth, God created everything that was responsible for our downfall, so it seems a bit unfair of God to punish us for God's own laxness. How were Adam and Eve supposed to resist the charms of Lucifer? Why would God plant a bloody great Tree Of Knowledge where they could get at it? If God is going to go about greating worlds and peoples God should be prepared for the consequences and not get up set when God gets 'Slapped in the face.' God should be bigger than that and if God really does not need our belief, why the threats of Hellfire?

Seeing that no one's responded to the "bears killing kids" comment, I will.

Hope this cleared up the arguement.

~Z

Thank you. I hadn't gotton that far yet. As for clearing up the argument, not likely but only because people just don't seem to want to understand the Bible. I guess there is stronger delusion to believe a lie than I once suspected. :confused:

Actually Satan is one of God's angels, the angel of temptation, God created him just to test mortals

Secondly, the interpretation of "little children" is very VERY off, since it IS being translated from another language. The more accurate translation of this is "young men." and to justify this, the Hebrew for "children" (men between 12 and oh say...30) is used in 1 Kings 20:14-15 describing an ARMY.
OK... so? a bunch of "young men" were laughing at him, big deal.
I don't know about you, but if i saw 42 guys together making fun of me, I'd be very intimidated, seeing that there's 84 of their fists and only two of mine.

I would have though being bolstered by the knowledge you were doing God's work would be enough to reassure you. If a few people yelling insults is enough to bring you out in a cold sweat, then perhaps God should find someone else to do God's work.

(And as an aside - why did God intervene to stop this martyrdom and not others? Could it be God doesn't approve of our modern Saints?)

(And another aside - surely God's work is proof against mis-translation. This could have all sorts of implications. Soon you'll be admitting the 'Virgin' Mary was no such thing, and someone confused the words for 'Young woman' and 'Virgin.' Don't tewll the Catholics!!!)

Thank you. I hadn't gotton that far yet. As for clearing up the argument, not likely but only because people just don't seem to want to understand the Bible. I guess there is stronger delusion to believe a lie than I once suspected. :confused:

feh... people will believe what they want to... I just give what I think is the most logical answer.
If you (and by "you" i mean anyone) think I'm wrong, post something! I'd love to debate.

If we follow the Eden myth, God created everything that was responsible for our downfall, so it seems a bit unfair of God to punish us for God's own laxness. How were Adam and Eve supposed to resist the charms of Lucifer? Why would God plant a bloody great Tree Of Knowledge where they could get at it? If God is going to go about greating worlds and peoples God should be prepared for the consequences and not get up set when God gets 'Slapped in the face.' God should be bigger than that and if God ruly does not need our belief, why the threats of Hellfire?

God desires chosen service out of love, in much the same way we pefer people, spouses, significant others, whatever, to do nice things for us because we love them and they love us, not because someone is hold a gun to their heads. Therefore, there has to at least be a choice to other than that which is loving, hence the tree, offering a choice to love and serve or to go our own way, which is to essentially cut ourselves off from the source of life, thus eternal death. Not I don't buy into the idea that hell = burning in fire for all eternity. See Eccl. 9:5.

Satan relies on brainless moronic goths and people who smoke crack. Makes you wonder where he is doing wrong.

Actually Satan is one of God's angels, the angel of temptation, God created him just to test mortals

Please read the passages in Ezekial and Isaiah previously quoted on page 1.

heres the deal

GOD SUCKS
GOD IS GAY
SATAN KICKS ASS
SATAN IS MY GOD :mp5:

THE FUNNY THING IS
IM JEWISH!! :sniper:

satan was the angel of light, not temptation. Hense "Lucifer".

God desires chosen service out of love, in much the same way we pefer people, spouses, significant others, whatever, to do nice things for us because we love them and they love us, not because someone is hold a gun to their heads. Therefore, there has to at least be a choice to other than that which is loving, hence the tree, offering a choice to love and serve or to go our own way, which is to essentially cut ourselves off from the source of life, thus eternal death. Not I don't buy into the idea that hell = burning in fire for all eternity. See Eccl. 9:5.

Ah, well, that's fine and dandy, but it isn't Christian theology. According to Augustine, we sin because we are born into it because it has been handed down like a bad case of herpes through insemination.

Yeah sorry, I forgot that part, he is the angel of light. But he was created to tempt, but yes he desired to be in power and he fell. I've heard that St. Michael fought him and cast him down to hell.

Even if there is no god or satan, satanists need to be burned.

Secondly, the interpretation of "little children" is very VERY off, since it IS being translated from another language. The more accurate translation of this is "young men." and to justify this, the Hebrew for "children" (men between 12 and oh say...30) is used in 1 Kings 20:14-15 describing an ARMY.
OK... so? a bunch of "young men" were laughing at him, big deal.


1 Kings 20: 14-15 reads

14 And Ahab said, By whom? And he said, Thus saith the LORD, Even by the young men of the princes of the provinces. Then he said, Who shall order the battle? And he answered, Thou.

15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand.

The text specifies young men in this instance, and the story from 2 Kings specifies children. The distinction is very clear. The 'Children Of Israel' is meant figuratively, I assume, not to mean actual children. So I don't think your argument holds water.

He doesn't need people to believe in Him. He loves people and does everything in His power to get their attention so they don't seal their own eternal destruction. He sent His Son to take the punishment that you and I deserve.

well if his son took the rap then party time why should i then spend my time worrying about this sin nonsense i mean really now if the big mans son vouched for me then i am home freeeeeee sweet. cmon give me a break, god is jealous, vindictive, and murderous. read old testament not the new testament which is about god's son. but about god, and tell me he's a loving, forgiving, and benevolent deity.

I would have though being bolstered by the knowledge you were doing God's work would be enough to reassure you. If a few people yelling insults is enough to bring you out in a cold sweat, then perhaps God should find someone else to do God's work.

(And as an aside - why did God intervene to stop this martyrdom and not others? Could it be God doesn't approve of our modern Saints?)

(And another aside - surely God's work is proof against mis-translation. This could have all sorts of implications. Soon you'll be admitting the 'Virgin' Mary was no such thing, and someone confused the words for 'Young woman' and 'Virgin.' Don't tewll the Catholics!!!)

"cold sweat?" I was merely pointing out my opinion in a place where no one else had answered it? I fair to see where the "cold sweat" comes in...
And to answer your "aside," Seeing that I'm not God, I don't pretend to KNOW this... but i would suspect that the reason why He protected Elisha in this case is because he was the only prophet of this time period, he dies, the ministry of judaism (and later Christianity) dies. And seeing that you are against Christianity, I don't expect you to know any stories about modern miracles, seeing that you'd have to be looking for them (the media doesn't like promoting Christian stories... i can't imagine why...)

http://www.worldinlight.org/miraclestories.htm

And your other aside? Sure, I can see your arguement concerning Mary, but seeing that Jesus filled the other prophecies-

(google it, I'm sure you can find a page with them... no? ok, here's one)
http://www.carm.org/atheism/why_believe.htm

-and that there is a plausible account of it (another interesting fact, Luke was a Doctor... meaning someone who was concerned with accuracy), I'm willing to wager that "virgin" in this case meant the modern day idea of "virgin."

~Z

He was the most beautiful of God's archangels, and became so consumed with his own arrogance that he believed he was better than God and tried to take over or something.

That's a rather boiled down version of it...
Well, that's God's version of events anyway.

Satan's biggest crime, was questioning God.

If you read the bible cover to cover, you'll see one central theme.

The bibe is a simple question; "Does mankind have the right to rule itself?"

Obviously, God and his followers believe that only God can rule us, where as Satan and the majority of the "evil" characters in the book believe that since we have free will...it is our right to rule ourselves.



Personally, I think both Satan and Judas got the shaft.

Honestly, it all comes down to which version of the Bible you read. The original Greek and Hebrew Bibles tell, in many ways, a different tale from modern Bibles, due to translation to Latin, then re-translation into various other languages. When things didn't translate directly (like the Greek word "noas" which has no English translation), the translators were left to interpret such things, and those interpretations were naturally colored by the interprator's own views. Thus, in some version the Morning Star/Lucifer/Satan/Shaitan really was a bastard. In others, however, he was either thrown out on a technicality or not thrown out at all, but rather bound to carry out God's will (how can he rebel, after all, if God is omnipotent and omniscent?). Speaking of which, I highly suggest (even to non-roleplayers) people interested in a completely different perspective of Satan and the demons pick up White Wolf's "Demon: The Fallen." It manages to cast a completely different light on the whole Bible and the Fall from the DEMONS' point of view, without offending western Monotheists of any type (my very conservative Catholic friend loved it). Pretty damn cool, no pun intended. It draws its roots (like most White Wolf games) from genuine Scripture, specifically the old Greek and Hebrew editions of the Bible. VERY highly recommened.

1 Kings 20: 14-15 reads

14 And Ahab said, By whom? And he said, Thus saith the LORD, Even by the young men of the princes of the provinces. Then he said, Who shall order the battle? And he answered, Thou.

15 Then he numbered the young men of the princes of the provinces, and they were two hundred and thirty two: and after them he numbered all the people, even all the children of Israel, being seven thousand.

The text specifies young men in this instance, and the story from 2 Kings specifies children. The distinction is very clear. The 'Children Of Israel' is meant figuratively, I assume, not to mean actual children. So I don't think your argument holds water.

I'm refering to the actual hebrew word for "young men." This instance of "young men" and the previously mentioned instance use the same word.

Where to begin. Read Rev. 12. You have grossly misinterpret Is. 45:7. God pointing out to the leader of the rebelion that His argument about it being impossible to live according to His law, was in fact being carried out in Job's life. Tormenting Job was Satan's evil idea. When God did engage in the destruction of human life, it was always as a result of their cutting themselves off from Him or disrespecting His Divine authority and he mercifully allowed them the just reward for their behavior.
God - A whiny little kid with absolute power.

Being god's brother, i will lay this entire argument to rest. God is a Ninja, Satan is a Pirate. Ninja's hate pirates since they're such retards. One day Satan was being his douche pirate self and called god's girlfriend a slut and that was the end of that. God was like 'what the hell satan?' and satan was like 'i like to eat soap!'. So god ninja kicked satan in the face, retarded him even more, and satan flew straight to hell.

God desires chosen service out of love, in much the same way we pefer people, spouses, significant others, whatever, to do nice things for us because we love them and they love us, not because someone is hold a gun to their heads. Therefore, there has to at least be a choice to other than that which is loving, hence the tree, offering a choice to love and serve or to go our own way, which is to essentially cut ourselves off from the source of life, thus eternal death. Not I don't buy into the idea that hell = burning in fire for all eternity. See Eccl. 9:5.

Chosen service out of love? With the threat of eternal damnation if we don't? Not much of a choice, is it?

There are plenty of examples of the threat of unpleasantness:

Psalms 9:17: The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Revelation 14: 9-11: 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Definately something to think about. Now...what movie's that from?
Isn't that from Job: A Comedy of Justice by Robert Heinlein?

It seems like there are two Devils, one is simply more powerful than another.

Chosen service out of love? With the threat of eternal damnation if we don't? Not much of a choice, is it?

There are plenty of examples of the threat of unpleasantness:

Psalms 9:17: The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Revelation 14: 9-11: 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

do you know the true meaning of hell? "Heaven" is defined as a place where one remains with God. So logically Hell is defined as a place where one remains withOUT God. The true pain of Hell is separation from God and, therefore, all that is good (from the Christian perspective). And as far as God being "mean" and damning people because they don't believe him. Consider this: You offer the keys to a brand new Lamborgini Diablo (or another car of your choice) to a person, and they reject the keys, but still want to drive the car (lets also assume that there is an anti-hijack/hotwire security device in the car, making driving without the keys impossible). Thus it is with God and Heaven.

~Z

do you know the true meaning of hell? "Heaven" is defined as a place where one remains with God. So logically Hell is defined as a place where one remains withOUT God. The true pain of Hell is separation from God and, therefore, all that is good (from the Christian perspective). And as far as God being "mean" and damning people because they don't believe him. Consider this: You offer the keys to a brand new Lamborgini Diablo (or another car of your choice) to a person, and they reject the keys, but still want to drive the car (lets also assume that there is an anti-hijack/hotwire security device in the car, making driving without the keys impossible). Thus it is with God and Heaven.

~Z
Well, not really. More like you are offered a Diablo but you have to jump through a bunch of random hoops because some sadistic asshole says you should, or you have the alternative of driving a Pinto.

u sure like to turn every1 against god, dont u guys? :rolleyes:

i suppose thats alright as you say behemothly intelligent things :p

Well, not really. More like you are offered a Diablo but you have to jump through a bunch of random hoops because some sadistic asshole says you should, or you have the alternative of driving a Pinto.

Random hoops? I believe that the fundamental doctrine of Christianity states that a SINCERE belief in Christ is the only "hoop" needed. after that, the rest falls into place.

I can speak from experience.

~Z

Random hoops? I believe that the fundamental doctrine of Christianity states that a SINCERE belief in Christ is the only "hoop" needed. after that, the rest falls into place.

I can speak from experience.

~Z
Since most of christianity doesn't believe that is the only requirement I stand by my hoops statement.

Since most of christianity doesn't believe that is the only requirement I stand by my hoops statement.

Like what? What are the "other requirements?" Now I'm curious...

The Truth of the Matter is is that Satan Represents all that are the faults of man Arogance, Jelousy, Ambition. He is every thing we are and yet not able to have the free will god intrusted upon us unworthy in Satans eyes. This act of rebellion is what made god punish Satan prooving that Man Kind with all its faults are on the Good side of God because we where created in his image

do you know the true meaning of hell? "Heaven" is defined as a place where one remains with God. So logically Hell is defined as a place where one remains withOUT God. The true pain of Hell is separation from God and, therefore, all that is good (from the Christian perspective). And as far as God being "mean" and damning people because they don't believe him. Consider this: You offer the keys to a brand new Lamborgini Diablo (or another car of your choice) to a person, and they reject the keys, but still want to drive the car (lets also assume that there is an anti-hijack/hotwire security device in the car, making driving without the keys impossible). Thus it is with God and Heaven.
~Z

Imagine this, putting a jar of cookies in front of your one year old child...then slapping them in the face when they try and get one. Imagine this, not just happening once...but spending the rest of your days instilling your children with different desires, then causing them pain for acting upon the desires you created.


If there is a god, then we are but babies compared to him/her/it. All of who we are was created by him/her/it, yet it would apprear that the majority of our desires were created for no reason other then to give him/her/it a good chance to smack us around some.
Some Christians believe that we were a perfect race, before Adam and Steve..erm, Eve...fell under the temptations of one Lucifer. That we are now all born into sin, and face the chance of hellfire if we (as NOW imperfect beings) cannot resist the sin that god gave us because of the sins of the first two humans.

So...basically, I'm doomed too a life of trying not to do things that god makes me want to do or face hellfire...because my Great (insert a million Great's) Grandfather and Grandmother fucked up?

Nice.


Fair.


Loving...oh yeah. /sarcasm off

The Truth of the Matter is is that Satan Represents all that are the faults of man Arogance, Jelousy, Ambition. He is every thing we are and yet not able to have the free will god intrusted upon us unworthy in Satans eyes. This act of rebellion is what made god punish Satan prooving that Man Kind with all its faults are on the Good side of God because we where created in his image
How can one not have free will and yet rebel?


Lucifer, the first Paradox.

Like what? What are the "other requirements?" Now I'm curious...
I could come up with examples but I'm lazy. I do know that Catholics, Methodists, Calvinists, and some of the more strict Lutheran sects believe in other requirements that just truly believing in Christ.

Random hoops? I believe that the fundamental doctrine of Christianity states that a SINCERE belief in Christ is the only "hoop" needed. after that, the rest falls into place.

I can speak from experience.

~Z


Hmmm, homosexuality is wrong.-Hellfire
Disobeying your parents is wrong.-Hellfire
Working on the Sabbath is wrong.-Hellfire
Sex outside of marriage is wrong-Hellfire
Bowing down to Golden Calf's in the mountains is wrong-Hellfire
Coveting(sp?) thy nieghbors wife is wrong-Hellfire




Um...need anymore, or is my point more or less made?

Hmmm, homosexuality is wrong.-Hellfire
Disobeying your parents is wrong.-Hellfire
Working on the Sabbath is wrong.-Hellfire
Sex outside of marriage is wrong-Hellfire
Bowing down to Golden Calf's in the mountains is wrong-Hellfire
Coveting(sp?) thy nieghbors wife is wrong-Hellfire




Um...need anymore, or is my point more or less made?

notice that those are ideas that are instilled by the Bible, which God wrote, who is Christ.
And where does it say that those are REQUIRED to go to heaven, Chirstians simply decide to follow those because they believe it to be God's will... show me where it is said that those are REQUIRED.

Imagine this, putting a jar of cookies in front of your one year old child...then slapping them in the face when they try and get one. Imagine this, not just happening once...but spending the rest of your days instilling your children with different desires, then causing them pain for acting upon the desires you created.


If there is a god, then we are but babies compared to him/her/it. All of who we are was created by him/her/it, yet it would apprear that the majority of our desires were created for no reason other then to give him/her/it a good chance to smack us around some.
Some Christians believe that we were a perfect race, before Adam and Steve..erm, Eve...fell under the temptations of one Lucifer. That we are now all born into sin, and face the chance of hellfire if we (as NOW imperfect beings) cannot resist the sin that god gave us because of the sins of the first two humans.

So...basically, I'm doomed too a life of trying not to do things that god makes me want to do or face hellfire...because my Great (insert a million Great's) Grandfather and Grandmother fucked up?

Nice.


Fair.


Loving...oh yeah. /sarcasm off

Concerning the cookies analogy: That's the child thinking that he/she knows better than the parents, let's assume that the child has a severe alergy to chocolate (and those are chocolate chip cookies), but the child is too young to realize/remember that those cookies could kill him. Is the parent wrong to slap the child's hand?
How many sins are good for you in the long run? (Extramarital sex: emotional scarring in the case of a breakup and the risk of childbirth.)

Now concerning Adam/Eve: let's assume that their sin that long ago was fabricated. How do you explain our tendency to sin now? Yes it seems unfair that we are bent to sin. But if it were our tendency to not sin, then we would simply be puppets for God. Same case if there was no evil at all, and I would rather take that challenge then be a puppet.

Satan does have Free will in the sense as he can do what he wants but he cannot be forgiven for the mistakes he ment. Human live there lives go to church on sundays get comunion and thats all god asks them to do Angels have to literaly be servents to god doing all his bitting and from lucifers stand point why should humans have this right while Angels who are almost perfect in every way shape and form have to be in perpetual slavery

Satan does have Free will in the sense as he can do what he wants but he cannot be forgiven for the mistakes he ment. Human live there lives go to church on sundays get comunion and thats all god asks them to do Angels have to literaly be servents to god doing all his bitting and from lucifers stand point why should humans have this right while Angels who are almost perfect in every way shape and form have to be in perpetual slavery

to clarify a little, it's not that Satan CAN'T be forgiven, it's that he doesn't want to.
Or at least that's what seems accurate to me, I could be wrong.

Okay to elaborate on what I said at first...

Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth was (Job 38:4-7), Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden or a few years, Scripture does not specifically say. Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.

Likely he was the highest of all the angels. He was persuasive enough to convince one-third of the angels to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:4). Even after his fall from heaven, not even Michael the archangel dared to confront him without the Lord’s help (Jude 9). Satan is the “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 2:2b). Believers are exhorted “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7b).

I don't know why I'm answering this =/ I'm not even Christian lol. I've just looked into Christian religion alot...

For someone who is not Christian, you had that all on the nose. Satan was incredibly prideful and wanted to be God. Though, I believe there were some other things to it. The missing books of the Bible (the ones the Catholic church took out and are still not in the Bible to this day) supposively explain it more.

But my point is that he has fallen from grace and just as we can never go back to the garden of Eden (Besides heaven of course) he can not be fogiven the question is not whether or not he can be forgivin but its that he made a choice that was against gods will. We have a choice of right or wrong but Angels have no choice they do as they are told and Satan is an example of what happens if they do not obbey god. Also there is a wide spread beleif that Satan is the leader of hell and is responsible for many evil deeds but in contridiction to this and the bible Dantes Version of hell is that Satan is trapped in a lake of ice and is inprisoned there. I just find that interestin that there are thos to versions of Satan. I beleive Dantes makes more sense because if God is all powerful it seems logical that he would imprison Satan and no let him posses tempt and do many of the other things he did in the bible

But my point is that he has fallen from grace and just as we can never go back to the garden of Eden (Besides heaven of course) he can not be fogiven the question is not whether or not he can be forgivin but its that he made a choice that was against gods will. We have a choice of right or wrong but Angels have no choice they do as they are told and Satan is an example of what happens if they do not obbey god. Also there is a wide spread beleif that Satan is the leader of hell and is responsible for many evil deeds but in contridiction to this and the bible Dantes Version of hell is that Satan is trapped in a lake of ice and is inprisoned there. I just find that interestin that there are thos to versions of Satan. I beleive Dantes makes more sense because if God is all powerful it seems logical that he would imprison Satan and no let him posses tempt and do many of the other things he did in the bible
Soo, either Satan is in control of hell and doing God's job for him by punishing the sinners, ooooorrrr Satan is trapped under a lake of ice and God is acting like a whiny little kid with absolute power who didn't get his cookie.

LOL, I read the title fast and I thought it said santa, I was like, WTF, santa is awesome.

LOL, I read the title fast and I thought it said santa, I was like, WTF, santa is awesome.


<on a much less serious note>
well.. Santa is an anagram for satan... so... SANTA IS SATAN! CAPITALISM IS THE DEVIL! WHERE IS NINJA-GOD TO DESTROY THE EVIL PIRATE SANTA!

~Z

Ninja-God was impaled by the Mockingbrd's flaming lightsabers and exploded.

Here is my certainly flawed understanding. Lucifer was the first angel and creaded by God to be perfect. Being perfect, he possessed a sort of free will and could choose to go against God and it is quite natural that he would resent subordination to lesser inferior beings (humans) even if he didn't resent subordination to God. God, being omnicient, know this would happen from the very begining.
Adam and Eve were not perfect or without sin, they were simply innocent in the sense that they didn't know what sin was. Without knowledge of good and evil they could not choose between the two. When God said that they shouldn't eat the fruit they did not know that it was wrong to disobey God. They simply lack the capicity to understand the concept. It ws neccessary for them to eat the fruit or they would forever lack the capacity to exercise their free will.
Gd, of course, knew from the begining that they would be tempted and he know that they would eat the fruit. His order not to was simply a pretext to kick them out of paradise becuase without hardship they would simply stagnate in luxury. God, however, inteded humans to evolve to spiritual perfection by our own efforts.

Concerning the cookies analogy: That's the child thinking that he/she knows better than the parents, let's assume that the child has a severe alergy to chocolate (and those are chocolate chip cookies), but the child is too young to realize/remember that those cookies could kill him. Is the parent wrong to slap the child's hand?

Yes, because the parent put the jar of *chocolate* cookies in front of his kid in the first place.
Maybe he should, I dunno, explain to his kid why chocolate is bad and give him a non-chocolate cookie instead?

Satan didn't do anything wrong at all. He followed his programming perfectly. God is pleased.

I don't know how exactly to get into this with so many God-haters/satanists that seem to infest these forums, but I'll try to explain a few things.

First, God didn't cause anyone to sin, but he did decree that it would happen. He set the events in motion so that the fall was almost inevitable. However this was not out of spite/hatred/sadism, etc. In letting these things happen and letting our innocense be taken away, he set us up on a precipice. Here we had the choice of sinning or the choice of achieving something far greater than we could ever imagine - becomeing part of God's family and through that, divinization. We will be like God in heaven, divinized, and see him for who he truely is- our Father. Without the sin of adam, nonoe of this would be possible. We might live in eden for an eternity seemingly happy on a natural level, but what God has in store for us is so much greater that we can't even imagine it. It's not by our own efforts that we achieve spiritual perfection as someone put it, but through God's plan that was set in motion in Eden.

Secondly, Satan is not the tormentor of hell, the master of pain. Hell is essentially becoming bonded to the demonic spirit of the devil which is cast away from God's presence. I won't get into the Hebrew definitions of 'Seraphim' and such, but suffice it to say that satan experiences the worst of the pains in hell and we would simply share in those sufferings - for all of eternity.

Lastly, we make our own choices for ourselves. In chosing to sin, knowing it is wrong and making up our minds to do it anyways (even if we don't follow through), we turn away from God and his love and blessings. It is not his fault if we make these personal decisions and he is not a vindictive sadist punishing us for not choosing him. In that we cannot see God and the spiritual world we tend to make choices based on the flesh and it's desires. If we choose these lesser earthly goods over the giver of the goods, the greatest good of all, we choose not to go to heaven. We cannot be condemned for an accident of a spur-of-the-moment event. We needs to know that we are choosing a lesser good/evil and commit ourselves to that.

Even after his fall from heaven, not even Michael the archangel dared to confront him without the Lord’s help

That's expected. If Satan was the head of the angels, he would have been a Serephim. An Archangel is only a level 2 angel is basic terms. :cool:

I don't know how exactly to get into this with so many God-haters/satanists that seem to infest these forums, but I'll try to explain a few things.

First, God didn't cause anyone to sin, but he did decree that it would happen. He set the events in motion so that the fall was almost inevitable. However this was not out of spite/hatred/sadism, etc. In letting these things happen and letting our innocense be taken away, he set us up on a precipice. Here we had the choice of sinning or the choice of achieving something far greater than we could ever imagine - becomeing part of God's family and through that, divinization. We will be like God in heaven, divinized, and see him for who he truely is- our Father. Without the sin of adam, nonoe of this would be possible. We might live in eden for an eternity seemingly happy on a natural level, but what God has in store for us is so much greater that we can't even imagine it. It's not by our own efforts that we achieve spiritual perfection as someone put it, but through God's plan that was set in motion in Eden.

Secondly, Satan is not the tormentor of hell, the master of pain. Hell is essentially becoming bonded to the demonic spirit of the devil which is cast away from God's presence. I won't get into the Hebrew definitions of 'Seraphim' and such, but suffice it to say that satan experiences the worst of the pains in hell and we would simply share in those sufferings - for all of eternity.

Lastly, we make our own choices for ourselves. In chosing to sin, knowing it is wrong and making up our minds to do it anyways (even if we don't follow through), we turn away from God and his love and blessings. It is not his fault if we make these personal decisions and he is not a vindictive sadist punishing us for not choosing him. In that we cannot see God and the spiritual world we tend to make choices based on the flesh and it's desires. If we choose these lesser earthly goods over the giver of the goods, the greatest good of all, we choose not to go to heaven. We cannot be condemned for an accident of a spur-of-the-moment event. We needs to know that we are choosing a lesser good/evil and commit ourselves to that.
Interesting, God - The Architect, Satan - The Oracle?

and no one noticed that neither god, nor the devil existed, or exist now.
They were just things that humans created because they wanted to try and explain how all the sh*t happens in this world, but now we have science.
Why do people take so much atention to an old book that if it had not been popular through out the ages it would have been thought to be written by savages.

I see god as a mob boss. Think about it: He's got a monopoly on the whole system, he's got followers who he constantly tests, and he's an arrogant A**hole. See any logic in that?

In some of these posts I get the feeling because as many think, "satan didn't do much, therefore, did nothing wrong," and God did what you think to be wrong, Satan is an alright guy. Clearly you've been brought under the spell pretty well then.

I am a Christian. I've seen this to be rather unpopular in these threads. But I appreciate this thread, and the creator of the thread, it makes you question things you were told not to, I appreciate that, being devil's advocate, no pun intended. I feel stronger in my faith because of it. Christianity is much more about Jesus, well, in being a Presbyterian anyway, than it is God or Satan.

Also, in every religion there is good and there is evil, or the equivalent of such. Its necessary that way to create balance.

I am liberal by the way, some may find it strange that I can be Christian and pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, against the death penalty, and detest the President, but such is how I am.

I can end this all now just by saying.....
there is no God and there is no Satan.

God and Satan represent the two parts of a person's brain. The intellectual which is God. The intellectual part wants peace, kindness, and most of all understanding. The other part is the primitive side. The primitive side wants violence, greed, and hate. It is very simple.

If this is all true, than why does he need people to believe in Him?

Jesus was Satan, to make people believe in him rather than that pesky God

Obviously you know nothing about Christianity. The TRILOGY! Father, Son, and The Holy Spirit!!! Jesus and God, (as hard as it may be for you to believe) are one in the same.

For the record, anyone who thinks they have been given a special mission from God ... Is actualyl being misguided by Satan. Think about it. Why would God need happless humans to do his bidding? Why would God appear to some and not to others? Why is it so often the sad and lonely that God appears to? Why does God want these people to go forth and knock on other people's doors and bug other people and make them think that Christianity is the religion of fruitcakes?

BECAUSE THE VOICES THESE PEOPLE HEAR, THE VISIONS THEY HAVE, ARE OF SATAN.

Satan was God's most beautiful Angel. Satan has immense power, and was almost able to tempt Jesus. What chance does a feeble human have, if Satan tries to tempt him or her? How could a human distingush between God and Satan?

This argument works quite well when Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door. You look at them wild-eyed and say "Thank goodness you are here! Do you realise you are doing the Devil's work?"

They usually run for it, and never come back.

Why does God want "feeble humans" to do his bidding? This is a good question, and one I'd love to answer for you. Because it goes back to the whole issue of faith, as well as good will for others. Of course God wants us to be good to each other, i.e. What Would Jesus Do? The issue of faith, he can't simply show up to the entire world and say, "I am God, believe in me!" Though, that would be very simple for him to do. He wants other people to proclaim it for him, because he wants you to believe in him because of a heart connection, not because it's been proven.

I can end this all now just by saying.....
there is no God and there is no Satan.

God and Satan represent the two parts of a person's brain. The intellectual which is God. The intellectual part wants peace, kindness, and most of all understanding. The other part is the primitive side. The primitive side wants violence, greed, and hate. It is very simple.
No, it's not in the mind, they really do exist. They're just very small. Lucifer sits on my left shoulder, and God on my right. And they whisper instructions to me all the time.

Given the general way God has treated us, I don't think God cares what we do, particularly.

How have you treated God? How have you treated yourself? How have you treated your brethren?

Obviously you know nothing about Christianity. The TRILOGY! Father, Son, and The Holy Spirit!!! Jesus and God, (as hard as it may be for you to believe) are one in the same.
Obviously you know nothing about Legless Pirates.

How have you treated God? How have you treated yourself? How have you treated your brethren?

Wow right wing christian nutz really do exist!!!! I

If we follow the Eden myth, God created everything that was responsible for our downfall, so it seems a bit unfair of God to punish us for God's own laxness. How were Adam and Eve supposed to resist the charms of Lucifer? Why would God plant a bloody great Tree Of Knowledge where they could get at it? If God is going to go about greating worlds and peoples God should be prepared for the consequences and not get up set when God gets 'Slapped in the face.' God should be bigger than that and if God really does not need our belief, why the threats of Hellfire?

God, crazily enough, gives you the CHOICE to follow him, or not.

Obviously you know nothing about Legless Pirates.

Sure don't, just what I responded to and have read in this thread.

Sure don't, just what I responded to and have read in this thread.
Still, it was a very obvious joke.

Wow right wing christian nutz really do exist!!!! I

I'm not right-wing at all. That quote was actually, inspired by the "God Bless America," bumper stickers that I hate. I think it should be America Bless God. How can you ask to be treated well if you don't treat others that way. If you don't honor yourself, you can't honor others, and can't do God's work.

God, crazily enough, gives you the CHOICE to follow him, or not.
No, god gives you an ultimatum to follow him. Much more accurate.

Still, it was a very obvious joke.

OK

can't do God's work.
Woh woh woh hold on there a mintue. God's work? Why should god get all the credit for my work? He shouldn't. Plus there is no god.

No, god gives you an ultimatum to follow him. Much more accurate.

There are always consequences for EVERY wrong choice or bad decision.

Woh woh woh hold on there a mintue. God's work? Why should god get all the credit for my work? He shouldn't. Plus there is no god.

I haven't attacked your arguments, remember this when other's tell you Christian's are intrusive and push their values, this is simply a defense for my own arguments. When you claim there is no God, I can't argue with that, because that would simply amount to us sounding like children. Me yelling, "Is To!" You yelling, "Is Not!"
But as far as for why I think that it's God's work, and appropriate that he take credit for what you see as your work, is that he created you, and can therefore, take responsiblity for your work. Because without him creating you, there would be no "you" to do "your" work.

There are always consequences for EVERY wrong choice or bad decision.
Ah, but that is the ONLY choice given. In the end a binary solution set like the one given is no choice at all.

Like what? What are the "other requirements?" Now I'm curious...

Catholics have to have belief and do good works. It was one of the major splitting points at the time of the Reformation. It is the main reason that some of the Fundamentalists denominations that hold tightly to the doctrine of "faith alone" consider Catholics non-Christian.

Ah, but that is the ONLY choice given. In the end a binary solution set like the one given is no choice at all.

I'm not quite sure I follow what you are saying, I might have misunderstood you. But I think you answered it for yourself. So, if there are always consequences you say, then there are no real choices? This is just a friendly question by the way, free of hostility.

Concerning the cookies analogy: That's the child thinking that he/she knows better than the parents, let's assume that the child has a severe alergy to chocolate (and those are chocolate chip cookies), but the child is too young to realize/remember that those cookies could kill him. Is the parent wrong to slap the child's hand?
How many sins are good for you in the long run? (Extramarital sex: emotional scarring in the case of a breakup and the risk of childbirth.)

Now concerning Adam/Eve: let's assume that their sin that long ago was fabricated. How do you explain our tendency to sin now? Yes it seems unfair that we are bent to sin. But if it were our tendency to not sin, then we would simply be puppets for God. Same case if there was no evil at all, and I would rather take that challenge then be a puppet.

A good parent would just hide the damned cookies away instead of continuing to abuse the child.

Risk of childbirth is happens with any heterosexual sex - extamarital or not. Why the assumption that just because someone is married thay want babies?
Committed monogomous lesbian or homosexual sex hurts no-one.
Not "honoring the sabbath" harms no one.
Bowing to a golden calf may be really silly, but again hurts... no one.
Usury - well, that hurts a lot of people, but that is a sin that modern Christians seem to have forgotten about...

In some of these posts I get the feeling because as many think, "satan didn't do much, therefore, did nothing wrong," and God did what you think to be wrong, Satan is an alright guy. Clearly you've been brought under the spell pretty well then.

I am a Christian. I've seen this to be rather unpopular in these threads. But I appreciate this thread, and the creator of the thread, it makes you question things you were told not to, I appreciate that, being devil's advocate, no pun intended. I feel stronger in my faith because of it. Christianity is much more about Jesus, well, in being a Presbyterian anyway, than it is God or Satan.

Also, in every religion there is good and there is evil, or the equivalent of such. Its necessary that way to create balance.

I am liberal by the way, some may find it strange that I can be Christian and pro-choice, pro-stem cell research, against the death penalty, and detest the President, but such is how I am.

There would be much less anti-Christian bias (not nec. the same as more Christian belief) if the most people didn't automatically think about people like Falwell when Christianity was mentioned.

There would be much less anti-Christian bias (not nec. the same as more Christian belief) if the most people didn't automatically think about people like Falwell when Christianity was mentioned.

Tell me about it! Anyone who speaks words of hate, has their own agenda and is not a good representative of God. For that fact, I don't care to hear words of hate spoken from anyone, no matter what faith, if any they have!

I'm not quite sure I follow what you are saying, I might have misunderstood you. But I think you answered it for yourself. So, if there are always consequences you say, then there are no real choices? This is just a friendly question by the way, free of hostility.
Look at it this way. You live in a Pre-Colony American society. You are male. You have one of two choices, three really. You can become one of the "hunter" class and enjoy all that entails, or you can shoot for the position of "shaman". Or you can die. Do you really have a "choice"? Flash forwards to present day America. You can choose to work your ass off and become quite a few things in your life if you want to. You can even change your sex. You can choose the gangbanger scene. A million and one truly life-changing choices. In which situation is "choice" truly present?

Look at it this way. You live in a Pre-Colony American society. You are male. You have one of two choices, three really. You can become one of the "hunter" class and enjoy all that entails, or you can shoot for the position of "shaman". Or you can die. Do you really have a "choice"? Flash forwards to present day America. You can choose to work your ass off and become quite a few things in your life if you want to. You can even change your sex. You can choose the gangbanger scene. A million and one truly life-changing choices. In which situation is "choice" truly present?

Very interesting. Maybe its more a decision than a choice, if the two can be divided.

Very interesting. Maybe its more a decision than a choice, if the two can be divided.

However, I think it's still a choice even with consequences. I can choose to speed to work today, because if I'm late I'll get fired, but on the other hand, if I'm pulled over for speeding I'll get a ticket. It would be easier in this situation, to pay the fine than to grovel for my job back.

You're very philosophical from what I've noticed, Armed Bookworm, and I admire that. However, its a little more philosophical than I am prepared to be at nearly 3am.

Great Agnostica, I've enjoyed the debate. However, it's getting late for me and I must go to sleep now.

Goodnight, and God be with you!

I strongly recommend all present read Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Material' trilogy then continue the debate. Puts the fall in different perspective. And then watch Pleasantville, similar idea.

Mikorlias of Imardeavia

However, I think it's still a choice even with consequences. I can choose to speed to work today, because if I'm late I'll get fired, but on the other hand, if I'm pulled over for speeding I'll get a ticket. It would be easier in this situation, to pay the fine than to grovel for my job back.

You're very philosophical from what I've noticed, Armed Bookworm, and I admire that. However, its a little more philosophical than I am prepared to be at nearly 3am.

Great Agnostica, I've enjoyed the debate. However, it's getting late for me and I must go to sleep now.

Goodnight, and God be with you!
I'm not exactly the one who came up with that argument as I lifted it from a book by David Weber, although it was being used just about the difference between barbarism and modern society and the difference between the amount of choices in them. Still applies in the long run, however.

I strongly recommend all present read Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Material' trilogy then continue the debate. Puts the fall in different perspective. And then watch Pleasantville, similar idea.

Mikorlias of Imardeavia
If you're talking about the Fall itself read "To Reign in Hell" by Stephen Brust. Quite interesting.

Was't he an angel who got too big for his wings, wanted to start some form of Angel revolt against god(or not) and was banished from heaven. He contacted his local property dealer and decided he was through with the pearly white thing opened an amusement park called hell where all supposedly unsavory characters go. The reason its so hot is because every one is committing sins and bodies are starting to pile up. CNN just released a report saying St Peter is lowering the standard of applicants to heaven. And that is just to let the priests and nuns in!!!!!!! :p

Actually, my first statement contains a slight inaccuracy. Since we chose to sin, though not before, eternal destruction is the default setting. Anyone who so desires can willfully accept Christ's substitutionary payment of the wages of sin and accept the "gift of God" which is "eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord".

First - we don't chose to sin - we are, by nature, sinful creatures - according to scripture.

So, god created a sinful creature, and then punishes it for sin.

Second - Eternal Destruction isn't the default setting. If god did not create a place for us to suffer, we would not suffer.

So, god deliberately built an eternal torture, made us automatically fail the test, and then we are supposed to thank him for his mercy?

I don't want to start an argument, but I'm just curious to those of you mad about God killing people; what is your position on abortion? Granted some of you will be againts it, but what about those of you who aren't?

i fail to see what makes him any different from a suicide bomber in Israel, or Osama Bin Laden, for that matter. They all think they are doing God's work. And how can we say they aren't?

The difference is Christianity doesn't teach that we should kill non-believers. We let God do that himself. The Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh Away. ;)

I don't want to start an argument, but I'm just curious to those of you mad about God killing people; what is your position on abortion? Granted some of you will be againts it, but what about those of you who aren't?



The difference is Christianity doesn't teach that we should kill non-believers. We let God do that himself. The Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh Away. ;)


Except for Canaanites - god says we have to stop them being alive... which I read as "killing them".

Oh, and witches.

Oh, and naughty children.

etc...

So - actually - if you believe the Old Testament to be the word of god, he pretty much goes out of his way to tell you it's okay to kill just about anyone...

Of course, we'd have to kill just about everyone just to level the playing feild, since he has such a big lead already....

[QUOTE=Sakido]I don't want to start an argument, but I'm just curious to those of you mad about God killing people; what is your position on abortion? Granted some of you will be againts it, but what about those of you who aren't?



The difference is Christianity doesn't teach that we should kill non-believers. We let God do that himself. The Lord Giveth and the Lord Taketh Away. ;)[/QUOTe

I don't think God actually kills people. Maybe death is her way of population control?

Oh, and witches.

Ahem, Poisoners. Witches is a mistranslation. And anyone who doesn't want to kill poisoners is insane.

Ahem, Poisoners. Witches is a mistranslation. And anyone who doesn't want to kill poisoners is insane.

Sorry, friend - you are thinking New Testament - where they use the Greek word "Pharmakeia" - which does indeed suggest someone who poisons (or just administers drugs to) people.

Thinking about it - The New Testament is telling us to kill all the doctors, nurses and pharmacists...

The Old Tetsament reference (I'm thinking Exodus 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.") uses the Hebrew 'Kashaph' - which is taken to mean someone who practices witchcraft or sorcery - but which probably comes CLOSER to meaning someone that communes with the dead.


But, my point was - the Bible pretty specifically DOES order the killing of, well, quite a lot of people.

Can't really disagree there.

Ahem, Poisoners. Witches is a mistranslation. And anyone who doesn't want to kill poisoners is insane.
What about organisations like Rentokil who started out by poisoning rats ;)

OK, you can ignore this, being deliberately obtuse. lack of sleep does that to me : D

There seem to be a number of different takes on the Christian God and why he punishes (and, yes, even if there is no Hell non-addmitance to heaven would be construed as punishment). So here's my take on them:

We are sinners. Our only way to absolve sin is to ask forgiveness for them.

God created the world in such a way as to make us sinners. Thus God is like a man who whispers in your ear why it would be a really, really good idea to steal candy, then in passing tells you stealing candy is bad. When you do steal some candy, however, he expects you to ask his forgiveness or he'll beat you to a bloody pulp.

God loves us. All God asks in return is our love and faith.

I would ask you to consider the following scenario:

You love someone absolutely. Despite everything you do, however, they do not return this love. Indeed, they spurn you regularly, laugh at you behind your back and generally treat you like excrement.

By a convenient plot device you are both captured by evil terrorists. For some unfathomable reason the head evil terrorist tells you that he plans to brutally and sadistically torture the one you love for an incredibly long period of time. You can stop this however. All you need do is raise your little finger.

What is the Christian thing to do in this scenario?

All you need to do is to choose to accept God

I can only offer a question in response to this line, can anyone explain to me why it is I do not choose to accept God?

If you are talking the little finger bit as sincere belief well, believing in something just because if I don't I may or may not go to hell if I don't is impossible for me. Faith is not high on my list of affinities.

If you are talking the little finger bit as sincere belief well, believing in something just because if I don't I may or may not go to hell if I don't is impossible for me. Faith is not high on my list of affinities.

The little finger thing has nothing to do with belief. I should've made that clearer. Erm, OK:

"You have a 100% infallible brain-reading device and thus know that the terrorist will keep his promise."

Doesn't this prove God doesn't exist? or is inherently evil?
Cause he created Satan, and being omnipotent/omniscient surely knew that Satan would revolt against him. So in other words God delibrately created someone to attack Himself (which indicates a possible SM thing going on), only to throw Satan down where Satan can have the opportunity to tempt and defile (which incidently also means to march in single file) us poor ppl.
So really it either shows that God is a nasty bugger who wanted to see us tormented (cause he created the evil that afflicts us) or if He didn't foresee that this was going to happen (and certainly hasn't tried to stop it since) proves that He isn't omnipotent/omniscient.

Concerning the cookies analogy: That's the child thinking that he/she knows better than the parents, let's assume that the child has a severe alergy to chocolate (and those are chocolate chip cookies), but the child is too young to realize/remember that those cookies could kill him. Is the parent wrong to slap the child's hand?
How many sins are good for you in the long run? (Extramarital sex: emotional scarring in the case of a breakup and the risk of childbirth.)

Now concerning Adam/Eve: let's assume that their sin that long ago was fabricated. How do you explain our tendency to sin now? Yes it seems unfair that we are bent to sin. But if it were our tendency to not sin, then we would simply be puppets for God. Same case if there was no evil at all, and I would rather take that challenge then be a puppet.

Let's examine this example...

God (the parent) has the capacity to, not only have children, but to build EXACTLY the sort of child he wants.

God build a child that LOVES chocolate - and then builds in a fatal allergy to it...

God (the parent), then shows how much he loves his child, by taking the poor chocolate-loving, but chocolate-allergic child, and sitting a jar of cookies RIGHT IN FRONT of the child... no lid, no label, no warning.

The infant looks in the jar and gets the whiff of chocolate. God turns round and hits the infant in the face with a frying pan full of hot oil.

see - maybe I'm being too 'liberal', but I don't think smashing babies in the face with cooking implements is really qualified as 'good parenting'...

So - god is a child abuser, as well as an incestuous rapist... (after all, Mary (a child of god) never did consent...)

Wait a minute, this one is the GOOD guy?

Obviously you know nothing about Christianity. The TRILOGY! Father, Son, and The Holy Spirit!!! Jesus and God, (as hard as it may be for you to believe) are one in the same.

Really? Who says?

Back to the topic of what did Satan do wrong anyway, he became proud (not that he'd done anything to be proud of) and hence sinned. I personally don't believe he/she eve exists but that is how I would justify it. Oh and for all the God bashers, humans are the ones who do all this shit and then blame on God cuz we're too damn arrogant and stupid to accept the consiquences.

Doesn't this prove God doesn't exist? or is inherently evil?
Cause he created Satan, and being omnipotent/omniscient surely knew that Satan would revolt against him. So in other words God delibrately created someone to attack Himself (which indicates a possible SM thing going on), only to throw Satan down where Satan can have the opportunity to tempt and defile (which incidently also means to march in single file) us poor ppl.
So really it either shows that God is a nasty bugger who wanted to see us tormented (cause he created the evil that afflicts us) or if He didn't foresee that this was going to happen (and certainly hasn't tried to stop it since) proves that He isn't omnipotent/omniscient.


No it does not prove that God is inherently evil. The fact that evil exists is not evidence agianst his omniscience/omnipotence because evil is not a thing that was or can be created. That is like saying someone created darkness. Darkness is nothing more than the absence of light just as evil is the absence of good. There is a very logical reason for creating a being that has the ability to rebel. If the being did not have that ability then it could never have a true loving relationship with God, they would simply be robots. Robots cannot have true relationships it is only master and slave. God is also not nasty bugger who wants to see ud tormented, he wants to see us grow. Without adversity their is no character developement. Also you can not use qualities of God to prove he does not exist that makes no sense.

We're on a highway to hell! *sings and bangs his head until he passes out*

Demented Hamsters said that God is inherently because he created Satan, even though he knew that Satan would revolt against him. That proves nothing, given he created man and he knew what we'd become. If God is evil that way, then man surely is (when we created the atom bomb, we knew we could blow any city sky high and sure enough, we did it twice!).

Ah, well, that's fine and dandy, but it isn't Christian theology. According to Augustine, we sin because we are born into it because it has been handed down like a bad case of herpes through insemination.

Augustine's theology of original sin is not indicative of all Christian Theology. Ever heard of the Reformation?

To take us back to the original thread, I didn't do anything wrong.

well if his son took the rap then party time why should i then spend my time worrying about this sin nonsense i mean really now if the big mans son vouched for me then i am home freeeeeee sweet. cmon give me a break, god is jealous, vindictive, and murderous. read old testament not the new testament which is about god's son. but about god, and tell me he's a loving, forgiving, and benevolent deity.

That's what the Bible says all the way through from the beginning to the end. Just because we have a hard time reconciling His justice with His merciful loving nature does not make it less true. See Exodus 34:6.

As for a sin free for all, if you genuinely accept God's gift, part of that gift if the capacity and desire to live a holy life, not because it saves you, but out of genuine love and gratitude. Living according to His commandments/ love for God and love for others is the evidence of that gift at work in one's life.

Satan's biggest crime, was questioning God.

If you read the bible cover to cover, you'll see one central theme.

The bibe is a simple question; "Does mankind have the right to rule itself?"

Obviously, God and his followers believe that only God can rule us, where as Satan and the majority of the "evil" characters in the book believe that since we have free will...it is our right to rule ourselves.



Actually, this is fairly true. The problem is when we chose to rule ourselves we willfully seperate ourselves from the source of life, God, and eventually, when He stops artificially sustaining us in our sins, we will die for all eternity unless we have chosen to accept is gift/offer to reconnect with Him as the source of life.

Obviously, God and his followers believe that only God can rule us, where as Satan and the majority of the "evil" characters in the book believe that since we have free will...it is our right to rule ourselves.

Another interpretation is that the believers married (coupled, as one w/God, etc...) to God can rule themselves. While the believers in satan believe it is our right to rule over each other.

Chosen service out of love? With the threat of eternal damnation if we don't? Not much of a choice, is it?

There are plenty of examples of the threat of unpleasantness:

Psalms 9:17: The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Revelation 14: 9-11: 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Mark 16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


If you think of God like a father, which He is, if you dissed your dad, didn't he punish you? Even more so if he was going out of his way to help you and you threw that help back in his face. Your father would have been "righteously indignant" as God is when we treat Him similarly. On the positive side He offers to forgive us if we will only acknowledge Him and accept His gift.

If there is a god, then we are but babies compared to him/her/it. All of who we are was created by him/her/it, yet it would apprear that the majority of our desires were created for no reason other then to give him/her/it a good chance to smack us around some.
Some Christians believe that we were a perfect race, before Adam and Steve..erm, Eve...fell under the temptations of one Lucifer. That we are now all born into sin, and face the chance of hellfire if we (as NOW imperfect beings) cannot resist the sin that god gave us because of the sins of the first two humans.


Not quite accurate. God is the source of life. Sin seperates from God. God gave us the free will to decide whether on not we wanted to seperate ourselves from Him. When we as a race chose to do this that seperation has been the cause of gradual degradation of human desires as well as the gradual death of our planet. God did not create evil. It is the soul thing that exists that He did not create. Lucifer was created perfect and until "iniquity was found in him" not having an origin outside of him, sinful desires did not exist. Eve chose, willfully to believe Satan/Lucifer and Adam chose willfully to follow her though neither of them had a predisposition toward sin. After they sinned that is another story and in a sense the rest of us are caught in the reprocussions of that choice, but not without hope of restoration.

I see god as a mob boss. Think about it: He's got a monopoly on the whole system, he's got followers who he constantly tests, and he's an arrogant A**hole. See any logic in that?

It's not arrogance when He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, in Whom we live and move and have our being. If you'd like to live apart from God, you'll have to accept all that that means, but last I checked we don't have the capacity to bring the inanimate to life.

God did not create evil.

Prove it - I believe scripture opposes your argument.

If you think of God like a father, which He is, if you dissed your dad, didn't he punish you? Even more so if he was going out of his way to help you and you threw that help back in his face. Your father would have been "righteously indignant" as God is when we treat Him similarly. On the positive side He offers to forgive us if we will only acknowledge Him and accept His gift.

OK, time for me to repost my thought experiment:

You love someone absolutely. Despite everything you do, however, they do not return this love. Indeed, they spurn you regularly, laugh at you behind your back and generally treat you like excrement.

By a convenient plot device you are both captured by evil terrorists. For some unfathomable reason the head evil terrorist tells you that he plans to brutally and sadistically torture the one you love for an incredibly long period of time. You can stop this however. All you need do is raise your little finger. You have a 100% infallible brain-reading device and thus know that the terrorist will keep his promise.

What would be the Christian thing to do?

It's not arrogance when He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe, in Whom we live and move and have our being. If you'd like to live apart from God, you'll have to accept all that that means, but last I checked we don't have the capacity to bring the inanimate to life.

Even in the history of Judeo-Christian theology - it has been an issue of indecision whether god was the creator of the world.

The earliest Hebrew quite clearly suggests that 'YHWH' is but one of the creative forces... other 'judeo-christian' though has suggested other creation stories.

Why does 'man' need to bring the inanimate to life?

We can create building blocks of life in the laboratory... we can 'bring back to life' someone who is 'dead' (if the conditions are right)... we can create new life with astounding simplicity (often, simply by forgetting a condom).

Prove it - I believe scripture opposes your argument.

Try Ezek. 28:12-15. This is the orgin of Evil. God didn't create it Lucifer did. Also see John 8:44.

Even in the history of Judeo-Christian theology - it has been an issue of indecision whether god was the creator of the world.

The earliest Hebrew quite clearly suggests that 'YHWH' is but one of the creative forces... other 'judeo-christian' though has suggested other creation stories.

Why does 'man' need to bring the inanimate to life?

We can create building blocks of life in the laboratory... we can 'bring back to life' someone who is 'dead' (if the conditions are right)... we can create new life with astounding simplicity (often, simply by forgetting a condom).

Ah the miricle of life. Actually, that is something God given even in conception. Can you take a still born child and make live or better yet, can you take the various elements that the body of any living thing is made of, combine them to make proteins, put those together into bones, flesh and sinews. Or better yet, can you create the elements before putting them together. Yes, we have gotton relatively proficient at manipulating that which God has already created, but I'd challenge you to show me one thing that human kind has created from nothing.

OK, time for me to repost my thought experiment:

You love someone absolutely. Despite everything you do, however, they do not return this love. Indeed, they spurn you regularly, laugh at you behind your back and generally treat you like excrement.

By a convenient plot device you are both captured by evil terrorists. For some unfathomable reason the head evil terrorist tells you that he plans to brutally and sadistically torture the one you love for an incredibly long period of time. You can stop this however. All you need do is raise your little finger. You have a 100% infallible brain-reading device and thus know that the terrorist will keep his promise.

What would be the Christian thing to do?

To save a life. The problem is Satan doesn't have control of the situation and neither does God. We do with our own free will. A free will that God will not violate. We can chose to go with Him or not. He will not force us.

Okay to elaborate on what I said at first...

Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth was (Job 38:4-7), Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden or a few years, Scripture does not specifically say. Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.

Likely he was the highest of all the angels. He was persuasive enough to convince one-third of the angels to join him in his rebellion (Revelation 12:4). Even after his fall from heaven, not even Michael the archangel dared to confront him without the Lord’s help (Jude 9). Satan is the “the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient” (Ephesians 2:2b). Believers are exhorted “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you” (James 4:7b).

I don't know why I'm answering this =/ I'm not even Christian lol. I've just looked into Christian religion alot...

This is right on target. I choose to worship God.

Back in the beginning in the Great Council of Heaven. Most if not all of the spirits in the Host of Heaven were present. This includes you and me.

Now Heavenly father gave us a gift but he needed a plan to help get everyone back but he also wanted it to be our choice.

Satan (Lucifer) and Jesus were the favorites of Heavenly Father.
They both presented a plan.

Satan's plan took away our free choice but he said it would ensure none would be lost.

Jesus's plan would give free choice, he even planned to die to save us from our sins if it came to that, but anyway he wanted us to keep our choice. He didn't want to force anyone.

Heavenly Father after much thinking decided to go with Jesus's plan. Satan was furious. He could not handle this defeat and so he decided he should try a coup.

He conspired with other angels (1/3rd heaven) and started a war.

Heavenly Father and the rest of the angels 2/3's of heaven easily defeated Lucifer. Lucifer would not surrender becuse he said its better to rule in hell than serve in Heaven. Heaveny Father could not kill his son so he banished him to earth and Outer Darkness without a body as well as his other conspirators.

Anyway, Satan has since then done a host of bad things like turn people's hearts against God, start the Crusades, tempt/test people with sinful ideas, and more.

To save a life. The problem is Satan doesn't have control of the situation and neither does God. We do with our own free will. A free will that God will not violate. We can chose to go with Him or not. He will not force us.

Yes, and neither can you make the person in question accept you. They have their own free will to reject you. The question is, is it Christian to allow them to be tortured even though it is wholly within your power to stop it solely on the basis that they reject you?

I'd challenge you to show me one thing that human kind has created from nothing.

God

(sorry, couldn't resist)

There is a beautiful Islamic story about why Satan has found himself in his current situation.

When God created Man, He insisted that all the angels bow down before His creation. Satan, who loved God so much, could not bring himself to bow down to anyone but God and was accused of pride and cast out. The story goes on to say that in the end time, Satan will be forgiven and allowed back into heaven.

For all the animosity about Islam nowadays, I like to think that story says a lot about the capacity of Islam for forgiveness.

What's this I see here?
Religion doesn't make sense?
However can this be?
You'd think someone, nay, a whole group of, let's say, generally intellectually superior people, would have noticed and pointed this out by now?

Yes, and neither can you make the person in question accept you. They have their own free will to reject you. The question is, is it Christian to allow them to be tortured even though it is wholly within your power to stop it solely on the basis that they reject you?

Again, it isn't solely on the basis that they reject you. Love isn't love without allowing someone the choice. If the choice is to have nothing to do with God, His hands are tied. It has nothing to do with whether or not He desires to save or what is Christian. The first issue is that He has to allow us to do as we chose and His capacity to save us is restricted by allowing us that freedom. Incidentally, I eternal torture is not the outcome, it is eternal death/the second death.

God

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Okay, now how about a real answer. If you don't believe He exists, we obviously didn't create Him. Imagined maybe, but not created.

What's this I see here?
Religion doesn't make sense?
However can this be?
You'd think someone, nay, a whole group of, let's say, generally intellectually superior people, would have noticed and pointed this out by now?

Or at least arrogant enough to believe they are intellectually superior. Care to compare IQ scores? Not that mine is that high, but it is right on the edge of 2 standard deviations from the mean.

At least one poll at some point showed that something around 7% of scientists are religious.
It may just be a poll, but interesting findings, no?
I did take care to put in 'generally'.

At least one poll at some point showed that something around 7% of scientists are religious.
It may just be a poll, but interesting findings, no?
I did take care to put in 'generally'.

yet it's interesting that the deeper scientists delve into biology, psychology, and astronomy (the science one, not the zodiac one, i keep getting those confused), more and more of them change from agnostic and atheist to deists of some sort simply because the evidence suggests intelligent design.

Back in the beginning in the Great Council of Heaven. Most if not all of the spirits in the Host of Heaven were present. This includes you and me.

Now Heavenly father gave us a gift but he needed a plan to help get everyone back but he also wanted it to be our choice.

Satan (Lucifer) and Jesus were the favorites of Heavenly Father.
They both presented a plan.

Satan's plan took away our free choice but he said it would ensure none would be lost.

Jesus's plan would give free choice, he even planned to die to save us from our sins if it came to that, but anyway he wanted us to keep our choice. He didn't want to force anyone.

Heavenly Father after much thinking decided to go with Jesus's plan. Satan was furious. He could not handle this defeat and so he decided he should try a coup.

He conspired with other angels (1/3rd heaven) and started a war.

Heavenly Father and the rest of the angels 2/3's of heaven easily defeated Lucifer. Lucifer would not surrender becuse he said its better to rule in hell than serve in Heaven. Heaveny Father could not kill his son so he banished him to earth and Outer Darkness without a body as well as his other conspirators.

Anyway, Satan has since then done a host of bad things like turn people's hearts against God, start the Crusades, tempt/test people with sinful ideas, and more.

That's the Mormon story right?

yet it's interesting that the deeper scientists delve into biology, psychology, and astronomy (the science one, not the zodiac one, i keep getting those confused), more and more of them change from agnostic and atheist to deists of some sort simply because the evidence suggests intelligent design.

Intelligent design? Explain the purpose of, say, wasps- surely the intelligence of any design is based on its usefulness?

That's the Mormon story right?
Well i added a bit but yes that is basically the true story.

At least one poll at some point showed that something around 7% of scientists are religious.
It may just be a poll, but interesting findings, no?
I did take care to put in 'generally'.

So the religion of science denies the existance of God. That is what they chose to believe in of course it is just as much brainwashed into them as some religion is into its practitioners. Doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. There are intelligent people who believe and intelligent people who do not. And, if you think that all scientist are intelligent, you should meet some of the scientists I went to school with... :rolleyes:

Intelligent design? Explain the purpose of, say, wasps- surely the intelligence of any design is based on its usefulness?

Since when do I have all the knowledge of the universe. You'll have to ask God. Actually, there are some valuable things wasps do, but I don't like them much either as their cousins are responsible for my father's death.

Since when do I have all the knowledge of the universe. You'll have to ask God. Actually, there are some valuable things wasps do, but I don't like them much either as their cousins are responsible for my father's death.
Certain wasps lay eggs in harmful insects. So they are very useful.

Everyone is usually food for another.

Well i added a bit but yes that is basically the true story.

Or at least the "true" story according to the Book of Mormon. Personally, I prefer the Bible, but there are some good ideas in the book of Mormon.

The were the inspiration for the invention of paper. Wasps that is...

Again, it isn't solely on the basis that they reject you. Love isn't love without allowing someone the choice. If the choice is to have nothing to do with God, His hands are tied. It has nothing to do with whether or not He desires to save or what is Christian. The first issue is that He has to allow us to do as we chose and His capacity to save us is restricted by allowing us that freedom.

Granted, but why does that entail punishment (and, yes, eternal death would also be punishment of deprivation), rather than forgiveness afterwards? It may be out of God's power to restrict our free will but it surely is not out of God's power to forgive unconditionally. Even if the person in no way seeks forgiveness.

Incidentally, I eternal torture is not the outcome, it is eternal death/the second death.

Well, the Scriptures tend to disagree but we'll run with it. Just change the original thought experiment to a quick kill, rather than slow torture. Doesn't really change the moral situation, IMHO.

Sure, wasps are important in the food web but what use is that (or the entire ecosystem for that matter). If the world was created for humans surely it would be easier to create a world with just corn, fish and cows.

Okay, now how about a real answer. If you don't believe He exists, we obviously didn't create Him. Imagined maybe, but not created.

OK, apologies for being flippant. Man cannot, of course, create something out of nothing because to do so is a logical impossiblity (nothing is not something and therefore cannot become something). If you are arguing that God can violate the rules of logic then feel free to do so. I'd like you to consider the ramifications, however...

Try Ezek. 28:12-15. This is the orgin of Evil. God didn't create it Lucifer did. Also see John 8:44.

Your Ezekiel reference doesn't say that Evil originated in anything other than god. It says that it was found in other places (well, iniquity), but doesn't mention where it was first created.

ALso, of course, that passage of Ezekiel is not a record of an event, but a record of what Ezekiel was going to say/did say to the King of Tyre.

And, John 8:44 doesn't say that Satan created evil, it says that the devil is the "father of lies" (although one translation just says that he is "senior" in lies - so he has been doing it a long time).


Conversley, Joshua 23:15 "Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your GOD promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all EVIL things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your GOD hath given you."

This passage expressly shows Evil coming from god... as does Judges 9:23 "Then GOD sent an EVIL spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech"

and 1 Samuel 16:15 "And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an EVIL spirit from GOD troubleth thee."

and 2 Kings 21:12 "Therefore thus saith the LORD GOD of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such EVIL upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle."

and Ecclesiastes 12:14 "For GOD shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be EVIL."

and Jeremiah 19:3 "And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the GOD of Israel; Behold, I will bring EVIL upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle."

and Jeremiah 40:2 "And the captain of the guard took Jeremiah, and said unto him, The LORD thy GOD hath pronounced this EVIL upon this place."


I could continue....

Granted, but why does that entail punishment (and, yes, eternal death would also be punishment of deprivation), rather than forgiveness afterwards? It may be out of God's power to restrict our free will but it surely is not out of God's power to forgive unconditionally. Even if the person in no way seeks forgiveness.



Well, the Scriptures tend to disagree but we'll run with it. Just change the original thought experiment to a quick kill, rather than slow torture. Doesn't really change the moral situation, IMHO.


Okay, moving along. When you consider that sin, willful seperation from God, is the cause of all pain, suffering, death, torture etc., someone who continues to willfully seperate themself from God would be the ongoing source of pain, suffering, misery and death. Selfishness inherently leads to the harm of others and even though God has already forgiven those who refuse them, they would neither be happy as citizens of Heaven nor would they be safe citizens of Heaven as they would eventually re-instigate Lucifer's rebelion. This wouldn't be fair to them or to everyone else. Making their eternal death the most merciful thing God can grant them.

yet it's interesting that the deeper scientists delve into biology, psychology, and astronomy (the science one, not the zodiac one, i keep getting those confused), more and more of them change from agnostic and atheist to deists of some sort simply because the evidence suggests intelligent design.

Where'd you get that, a "Creation Science" site?

You should really watch the Devil's Advocate, some of hte monologues in that are very insightful.

Look at it this way. You live in a Pre-Colony American society. You are male. You have one of two choices, three really. You can become one of the "hunter" class and enjoy all that entails, or you can shoot for the position of "shaman". Or you can die. Do you really have a "choice"? Flash forwards to present day America. You can choose to work your ass off and become quite a few things in your life if you want to. You can even change your sex. You can choose the gangbanger scene. A million and one truly life-changing choices. In which situation is "choice" truly present?

I can't being to rant on how completelly wrong this is. Not the philosophical question but the characterization of Native American civilization. Many Native American societies were pastoral and several grew crops. They had some fairly large cities, as well, and government systems as complex as their classical European counterparts. What the Native American's didn't have werw guns and small pox.


As for the existance of God debate, philosophy tells us that God, by definition, must be. However, it also tells us that God cannot exist. God, god is superior to everything else and subbordinate to nothing. Everything in the Universe is subbordinate to God, therefore God can be defined as the ultimate reality. Since God is ultimate reality, it cannot exist within reality. However, everything in reality is an aspect of God. This pretty much shoots down the possibility to a personal God with understandable thoughts and motivations.
The mistake most religions make is that they attempt to anthropamorphize God. They try to map human traits onto a being that is, by its very nature, beyond human understanding. This will always result in a flawed interpretation.

Did Satan really tempt Adam? I don't think so. This is a quite common misinterpretation of the Genesis; such as it is nowhere mentioned that the Fruit of Knowledge (not sure about the translation) was an apple.
There was another thing not mentioned by Chansu: God eradicated the whole Earth's population except Noah and his Arch during the Big Flood... Or think about the twelve plaques of Egypt.

Actually, the Old Testament's God was quite merciless when it came to punishment. Most people seem to forget that.

As a matter of fact, I'm no Christian, either. But God was never vindictive without provocation.

Satan is just another name for the Devil. I think that he, as somebody said so earlier, became proud and believed he was better than God, and was cast to Hel (Viking spelling).

Intelligent design? I agree. How can anyone explain how a Venus Fly Trap could have possibly evolved? I mean, did a plant start by catching insects in its randomly moving leaves… and digesting them with what?

Philosophy doesn't demand the existance of a deity. All you'll ever get from philosophy is proofs against certain aspects of deities (Omni-stuff, mostly), that no deity can have morals any more objective than anyone else, and that you can't disprove the existance of a 'highest' entity anymore than you can prove it.

As for Venus flytraps, they're a pretty bad place to point for intelligent design considering they waste so much energy; They fricking drop their 'maws' rather than having a good mechanism for reopening them constantly. Big waste of growth.

Every argument for intelligent design begs the question as to whether the designer could really be called all that intelligent...

Okay, moving along. When you consider that sin, willful seperation from God, is the cause of all pain, suffering, death, torture etc., someone who continues to willfully seperate themself from God would be the ongoing source of pain, suffering, misery and death. Selfishness inherently leads to the harm of others and even though God has already forgiven those who refuse them, they would neither be happy as citizens of Heaven nor would they be safe citizens of Heaven as they would eventually re-instigate Lucifer's rebelion. This wouldn't be fair to them or to everyone else. Making their eternal death the most merciful thing God can grant them.

Ignoring both the claims that sin causes causes pain, suffering etc. (contentious) or that sin is the cause of all pain, suffering etc. (even more contentious) I'll deal with the final part. Who is to say that those who reject God would not wholly reject their previous position when faced with the majesty of Him and His Domain? It would seem pretty likely to me. So even granting your premises I would still feel a whole post-death redemption loophole would exist.

Note, it would not inhibit free will. It would just provide more information on which to base a free decision.

And anyway, if we enter heaven still as impure sinners I fail to see why even those who freely follow God would be immune to rebellion. Christians they may be, but they are also imperfect, fallible, Christian sinners. And in eternity its pretty much a given that an imperfect being will foul up.

But God was never vindictive without provocation.


How, precisely, does one provoke an infinite, omnipotent wholly good being?

So the religion of science denies the existance of God. That is what they chose to believe in of course it is just as much brainwashed into them as some religion is into its practitioners. Doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. There are intelligent people who believe and intelligent people who do not. And, if you think that all scientist are intelligent, you should meet some of the scientists I went to school with... :rolleyes:

The 'religion' of science does no such thing. Many scientists belief in some form of deity. Few scientists, speaking as scientists, will outright state that there is no God - because ultimately there might be, inspite of all the evidence agaist God - Bill Hicks' joke about God burying dinosaur bones and desgning the Platypus just to annoy Darwin. The might state that they don't believe in God, personally, but they will admit that first causes of creation are still a bit murky and theoretical.

What very, very few scientists would say is that a) Creation happened as per the Garden of Eden myth and, b) Evolution is a theory, not an observable fact. This is enough for most Christians, who are sensible people on the whole, who accept the Garden Of Eden story is not in fact how the world came into being, but is a charming creation myth, as most cultures have.

This in itself does not disprove or undermine God's existance, nor does it make the Bible any more or less reliable for other information - no more than the earlier admission that parts of the Bible were possibly mistranslated (Weren't the translators meant to be guided by God, anyway? If God doesn't care about the message getting across, I suggest God doesn't care about us, full stop.) There is a difference between the Creationists and the comparatively sane Christians. Creationists are to Christianity what Marxists are to socialism and Mullah Omar is to Islam - an extremist embarrassment who is constantly trying to colonise words with special meanings and interpretations to make themselves seem more important and more privileged with special understanding. Witness the claim that increasing numbers of scientists become religious as they investigate the origins of the universe (Presented without a shred of evidence, naturally). So what? As I said, many scientists believe in a deity. Many more refuse to rule the possibility of one out, because to do so with would be unscientific. What this claim does not mean, is that scientists are flocking to the Garden of Eden myth and joining the ranks of the creationists. Because they aren't.

Satan's biggest crime, was questioning God.

If you read the bible cover to cover, you'll see one central theme.

The bibe is a simple question; "Does mankind have the right to rule itself?"

Obviously, God and his followers believe that only God can rule us, where as Satan and the majority of the "evil" characters in the book believe that since we have free will...it is our right to rule ourselves.



Personally, I think both Satan and Judas got the shaft.

Nah, Judas was a piece of shit traitor. I don't care who he was betraying, I hate people like that.

Satan on the other hand...it's an interesting argument if done correctly.

Whispers: neither of them exist.

I think our perception of Satan has changed, post-Milton. Before Paradise Lost he was one of God's minions who's job was to carry out the sort of work God didn't want to be associated with - Satan was a sort of Ollie North to God's Reagan (Deniability is all important when you have a universe to run). As a result, Satan got a bad rep and was seen as the source of all evil. In fact the true villan is this self-appointed God thing, who runs the whole show. He's the ultimate villan.


I think Isaeah and Ezikiel are a little bit older than Milton...

How, precisely, does one provoke an infinite, omnipotent wholly good being?

Who is worshipped as the perfect idol by perhaps billions. If we humans are so insignificant, how can we possibly anger a perfect being?

Nah, Judas was a piece of shit traitor. I don't care who he was betraying, I hate people like that.

Although there are two arguments in support of Judas:

1) Some people beleive Jesus wanted to be turned over to the authorities so he could become a martyr and pursuade the jewish people to rebel against their roman masters.

2) Judas may have felt he was saving his people by sacrificing Jesus. I am sure Jews were mistreated and threatened during the search for Jesus by their Roman overlords.

There is a beautiful Islamic story about why Satan has found himself in his current situation.

When God created Man, He insisted that all the angels bow down before His creation. Satan, who loved God so much, could not bring himself to bow down to anyone but God and was accused of pride and cast out. The story goes on to say that in the end time, Satan will be forgiven and allowed back into heaven.

For all the animosity about Islam nowadays, I like to think that story says a lot about the capacity of Islam for forgiveness.
There's a webcomic somewhere on the net that uses the first part of the myth as the basis for it's plotline. Don't remember what it's called.

Although there are two arguments in support of Judas:

1) Some people beleive Jesus wanted to be turned over to the authorities so he could become a martyr and pursuade the jewish people to rebel against their roman masters.

2) Judas may have felt he was saving his people by sacrificing Jesus. I am sure Jews were mistreated and threatened during the search for Jesus by their Roman overlords.

1. Jesus was a spiritual leader, not a political one. Even though the jews wanted political salvation, that wasn't what Jesus "came" to do. He came to "save their souls."

2. Judas was greedy. The Jewish High Priests offered him money, and he took it, not caring that he was betraying a friend, son of god or not. Afterwards, he felt so bad about it that he threw the money back at their feet and hung himself.

There's a webcomic somewhere on the net that uses the first part of the myth as the basis for it's plotline. Don't remember what it's called.

Heh, I wonder if in the end, America, the great satan, will be forgiven?

Perhaps if we start mistreating our women more and restricting their everyday lives.

I can't being to rant on how completelly wrong this is. Not the philosophical question but the characterization of Native American civilization. Many Native American societies were pastoral and several grew crops. They had some fairly large cities, as well, and government systems as complex as their classical European counterparts. What the Native American's didn't have werw guns and small pox.
Alright, fine. Let's go back to Pre Agrarian instead. The point stands. Besides which, did I ever say all societies were like that? I was putting up an analogy. Sheesh.

Heh, I wonder if in the end, America, the great satan, will be forgiven?

Perhaps if we start mistreating our women more and restricting their everyday lives.
From the first three pages I read I don't think Islam is all that involved.

From the first three pages I read I don't think Islam is all that involved.

I know...I'm in the first three pages I think. It was merely an observation, although a harsh one.

1. Jesus was a spiritual leader, not a political one. Even though the jews wanted political salvation, that wasn't what Jesus "came" to do. He came to "save their souls."

2. Judas was greedy. The Jewish High Priests offered him money, and he took it, not caring that he was betraying a friend, son of god or not. Afterwards, he felt so bad about it that he threw the money back at their feet and hung himself.

1. Even from just reading the bible, it is evident that Jesus was very politically involved. Why would the Romans be interested in them if he had not done anything political?

The bible is rather confusing and unclear. However, it is accepted that he did come to help the people through his suffering. Whether that assistance was saving them from their "original sin" which didn't exist before or saving them from the Romans is fuzzy.

2. The wording in the bible suggests that Jesus may have ordered him to accept money or maybe he was simply given the money. The fact that he threw it back indicates that he wasn't really interested. And the fact that he hung himself indicates that he felt very guilty. These are not the actions of a greedy selfish traitor. These are the actions of someone who felt forced to give up a dear friend to the authorities for some reason and then could not live on in these circumstances.

1. Even from just reading the bible, it is evident that Jesus was very politically involved. Why would the Romans be interested in them if he had not done anything political?

The bible is rather confusing and unclear. However, it is accepted that he did come to help the people through his suffering. Whether that assistance was saving them from their "original sin" which didn't exist before or saving them from the Romans is fuzzy.

2. The wording in the bible suggests that Jesus may have ordered him to accept money or maybe he was simply given the money. The fact that he threw it back indicates that he wasn't really interested. And the fact that he hung himself indicates that he felt very guilty. These are not the actions of a greedy selfish traitor. These are the actions of someone who felt forced to give up a dear friend to the authorities for some reason and then could not live on in these circumstances. Given it was the Roman authorities, can anyone say torture?

1. Even from just reading the bible, it is evident that Jesus was very politically involved. Why would the Romans be interested in them if he had not done anything political?

The bible is rather confusing and unclear. However, it is accepted that he did come to help the people through his suffering. Whether that assistance was saving them from their "original sin" which didn't exist before or saving them from the Romans is fuzzy.

2. The wording in the bible suggests that Jesus may have ordered him to accept money or maybe he was simply given the money. The fact that he threw it back indicates that he wasn't really interested. And the fact that he hung himself indicates that he felt very guilty. These are not the actions of a greedy selfish traitor. These are the actions of someone who felt forced to give up a dear friend to the authorities for some reason and then could not live on in these circumstances.

Just so you know, you're arguing with an agnostic who was brought up Roman Catholic. I rarely mess up with stuff like this.

Where in the bible does Jesus get overly political, in the form of helping the jews? The Romans cared about Jesus cause they were the lawmakers and law enforcers where Jesus was. Jesus was accused of a "crime" and they had to preside over it. The Romans wanted to make the jews happy and to get the high priests to shut up. That's why jesus was "convicted."

Where does it say that Jesus ordered him to collect the money? Him throwing it back was an afterthought, a guilty concience (sp?) catching up to him. He hung himself out of shame, once he had realized what his greed had cost his friend. Granted christians believe that it was destined to happen, so they may not fault him for his actions, however I don't share those believes, and I call him what he is - a traitor. Not one to a government, but one to his loyal friends...both are horrible.

what a horrible, stupid and undermining thing to say you fool butterfly he never hung himself that fate was the man who betrayed jesus to the romans when it was found out that he was wanted for a false crime he never commited. he did not hang himself he was nailed to the cross because the jewish high preists feared him and what he was and did what human instinct demands, his destruction. the high preists turned most of the populace against him and used them to demand his death from the romans who were forced to agree or the mob would riot simple as that this crap about him being a 'traitor' is stupid in the extreme and i will laugh real hard when you are burning in hell. (excluding the people defending christ and god, of course)

There Is No Damn God!
..The only reason the word "God" was created was to spice up the word "damn"
*ie. - "GOD DAMNIT!"

Actually, there is.

Let's say that God created Satan, and thus, evil. Who would you say is worse-the mobster hired to beat you up, or the mob boss, the guy who authorized the beating, who is watching it on 50-inch HDTV with surround sound?

Satan didn't do anything. He's actually a fictional character invented by the Church in the first several decades after the death of Jesus to scare the ignorant masses into accepting the new Christian religion. On occassion he is described or depicted with the lower half and horns of a goat, but this is merely propaganda against the Celtic deity of the woodlands, Cernunnos, aka Pan to the ancient Greeks. They used this image to convince the resident pagans that their religon was wrong, and their god was evil. After that, he evolved into a red-bodied, goat-legged, bat-winged, pitchfork-bearing demon with horns and a pointy tail.

Crazy, huh?
Satan or the devil was around long before the death of Christ but the depiction of him as commonly seen now is an Early Catholic teaching....Satan looks like man and goes about as man...He will walk the earth until Anti Christ comes and the indwelling occurs and he will then be cast into the lake of fire...

Just so you know, you're arguing with an agnostic who was brought up Roman Catholic. I rarely mess up with stuff like this.

Where in the bible does Jesus get overly political, in the form of helping the jews? The Romans cared about Jesus cause they were the lawmakers and law enforcers where Jesus was. Jesus was accused of a "crime" and they had to preside over it. The Romans wanted to make the jews happy and to get the high priests to shut up. That's why jesus was "convicted."

Where does it say that Jesus ordered him to collect the money? Him throwing it back was an afterthought, a guilty concience (sp?) catching up to him. He hung himself out of shame, once he had realized what his greed had cost his friend. Granted christians believe that it was destined to happen, so they may not fault him for his actions, however I don't share those believes, and I call him what he is - a traitor. Not one to a government, but one to his loyal friends...both are horrible.

Here (http://www.probe.org/docs/martyr.html) is a link expanding on the viewpoint.

I was basing my statements on stuff I learned in 11 years of Sunday School.

I am a Jewish Athiest.

I am very interested in all religion.

Y'know what Satan really did wrong?

He let the other side tell the story.

Hmm. Let's see.

Some basic traits of the usual modern christian conception of God:
God made everything other than himself.
God doesn't make mistakes.
God knows everything.

Now, just from those three points...
If God made everything, then in addition to relatively prosaic things like "dirt" and "people", he's also responsible for the creation of such things as love, hate, etc. Most importantly for this kind of conversation, he created the idea of sin.

Now, you can blame the serpent if you want, but all he did was point the tree out to Eve and say "Go on, take a bite, it won't hurt... Nobody will know..." The thing is, if God didn't want them to eat the fruit, he wouldn't have put the tree there.

He made adam. He made eve. He made the serpent. He made their personalities, strengths and weaknesses. They, by definition, had to have come out exactly as he wanted them to, because he is infallable. He, by definition, had to know what would occur as a result, because he is omniscient.

By the same token, God made satan. He created all his personality traits, etc. If Satan did something "wrong" then it's because God created him to DO something "wrong".

Mind you, given that the modern conception of God has him defined as "perfect in every way" but he describes HIMSELF as being jealous a great many times in the literature...

Hmm. While I'm thinking about it... Evil... If god created evil and suffering, as Christian doctrine says that he must have, them being a part of "everything", then how good can he be? I mean, one of the usual answers is that he created them "as a test", but an all-knowing being has no need to "test" anyone or anything. The nature of the concept behind a "test" is that you don't know the outcome. If you're never wrong about anything, the word "test" has no meaning whatsoever. I mean, nobody performs a "test" to see if the water they happen to be bathing in is still there...

Bah. There's even an mention in the bible about how god couldn't help some guy capture a valley because the people who lived there had iron chariots.

So the question is - we talking the actual christian god, as described in the books, who had some serious personality flaws, and things he couldn't quite get a handle on, or we talking the shiny, perfect god that people generally think of today? 'Cuz there's just no way they are the same guy.

Here's an interesting take on the whole matter. http://www.baen.com/library/0671877038/0671877038.htm

She looked up toward Heaven, and with her eyes wide open, she said, "Okay, God. I've had it. I've thought about this until I can't stand to think about it anymore, and now we're going to have to do something about it. You said that whatever we asked of you, if we had faith, you would give to us." She took a deep breath, and her hands clenched into fists.

"Hell is all wrong. You claim that we have free choice—the choice to love you or not, to follow you or not. But there isn't any choice to it. If a thief held a gun to my head and told me to give him my car keys or he'd kill me, I'd give him my keys . . . but nobody would say I did so of my own free will. And if he stuck the same gun to my head and told me to love him or else, I might pretend to love him . . . at least until I got hold of the gun.

"You're holding a gun to our heads, God. You're saying `Love me or writhe in torment for eternity' and eternal torment is a pretty damned big gun for anything a person could do in eighty years.

"You claim to be a God of love. I say that only a sadistic, spoiled child would torture someone for eternity, no matter what reason he had."

I recommend reading it, although the ending's a bit too mushy for me.

Let's say that God created Satan, and thus, evil. Who would you say is worse-the mobster hired to beat you up, or the mob boss, the guy who authorized the beating, who is watching it on 50-inch HDTV with surround sound?

By saying that God created evil, you're assuming that evil is a real thing. However evil can be seen as a privative, that is, the absence of something else i.e. good - just like cold doesn't exist, it's just the name given to the absence of heat, and dark doesn't exist except as the absence of light.

what a horrible, stupid and undermining thing to say you fool butterfly he never hung himself that fate was the man who betrayed jesus to the romans when it was found out that he was wanted for a false crime he never commited. he did not hang himself he was nailed to the cross because the jewish high preists feared him and what he was and did what human instinct demands, his destruction. the high preists turned most of the populace against him and used them to demand his death from the romans who were forced to agree or the mob would riot simple as that this crap about him being a 'traitor' is stupid in the extreme and i will laugh real hard when you are burning in hell. (excluding the people defending christ and god, of course)

Get your religious head out of your ignorant ass and read my post before flaming me. Judas did hang himself. No one said Jesus did.

One thing i've never been sure of, and I may be showing my ignorance here 'cos it really isn't my field of expertise but...

Why would Romans care about killing Jewish heretics?

Okay to elaborate on what I said at first...

Satan’s fall from heaven is described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. These passages describe why Satan fell, but they do not say when the fall occurred. What we do know is this: the angels were created before the earth was (Job 38:4-7), Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden (Genesis 3:1-14). Satan’s fall must have occurred somewhere after the time the angels were created and before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. Whether Satan’s fall occurred a few days before he tempted Adam and Eve in the garden or a few years, Scripture does not specifically say. Why did Satan fall from Heaven? Satan fell because of pride. He desired to be God, not to be a servant of God. Notice the many "I will..." statements in Isaiah 14:12-15.


Isaiah 14 has absolutely nothing to do with Satan whatsoever. The passage is directed against the king of Babylon.

By saying that God created evil, you're assuming that evil is a real thing. However evil can be seen as a privative, that is, the absence of something else i.e. good - just like cold doesn't exist, it's just the name given to the absence of heat, and dark doesn't exist except as the absence of light.

Things like good and evil are very differant from light/dark and heat/cold. For one thing, those are physical. Good and evil are, however, conceptual in nature. Neither has any actual reality, in the way that light and dark do.

In creating a concept like "good" or "beauty", one creates the opposing concepts of "evil" and "ugliness" at the same time. In raising one side, the other is lowered. When you dig a hole, the dirt forms a hill.

However, to assume that your theory is correct... God was, originally all that existed. God created stuff. Much of the stuff he created was lacking in "good". And thus, he created evil.

Even if evil were a privation, he still created it by making all the things that lack in goodness. Just like I can make cold by turning on an air conditioner, or darkness by closing a box. The nature of cold or darkness doesn't change the fact that it's my fault that it's there.

Satan or the devil was around long before the death of Christ but the depiction of him as commonly seen now is an Early Catholic teaching....Satan looks like man and goes about as man...He will walk the earth until Anti Christ comes and the indwelling occurs and he will then be cast into the lake of fire...

You're quoting a religion that believes the Earth is only several thousand years old, and also states that all creatures are as they have always been, as they will always be. Your first mistake is not seeing the facts of life.

Second flaw: You forget your fifth grade theology. Aside from a few jealous goddesses and greedy gods, until Christianity spurted in the centuries after the death of Jesus, there never existed a representation of true and absolute evil, at least not to the extent of Satan. Sorry, but humans are receptive little critters; if such an evil did in fact exist, why did the Greeks not come up with it?

Bah. There's even an mention in the bible about how god couldn't help some guy capture a valley because the people who lived there had iron chariots.


Obviously, Ford is what killed God off.

:D

Satan and I are pals. I don't see what everyone has against him. God is much worse. This is just another one of the hypocricies of religion... oh well.

Nah, Judas was a piece of shit traitor. I don't care who he was betraying, I hate people like that.

Satan on the other hand...it's an interesting argument if done correctly.

Interesting perspective - I have to assume that you are a church-attending christian - since Judas=bad is party line.

Did Jesus have to die to save the souls of the many?

Was the crucifixion not, therefore, a requirement?

(Although not much fun for Jesus at the time, one imagines).

If Jesus was to be crucified, and, as he prophesied, he had to be betrayed by a friend - does that not mean that one of his friends had to betray him?

Given that most of his 'friends' denied him in his lowest hour, who among his friends LOVED Jesus enough to be the one to fulfill prophecy?

(Even at the cost of his dearest friend, a burden he apparently couldn't bear, since he committed suicide just a little while later).

So - far from being a "piece of shit traitor" - Judas is a hero.

He fulfilled an unpleasant task that was REQUIRED by god, that was distasteful to him, and that harmed his dearest friend.

He was the most beautiful of God's archangels, and became so consumed with his own arrogance that he believed he was better than God and tried to take over or something.

That's a rather boiled down version of it...

Sorry, that is a great misconception.

I study Occult and religious lore, and Satan is one of the most misunderstood figures in religion (besides, perhaps, God himself)

I'm going to give you the abridged version, since it is 1 in the morning here.

Satan literally means adversary or accuser.

Througout human history, figures like Satan have existed, but in christianity hes has been mixed up with various other figures.

Lucifer, or literally "the light bringer" was gods holiest and most treasured angel and was considered closest to God (exept for perhaps Metatron). He was also one of the four Archangels, and leader of the Seraphim (flaming ones) the first choir of the first order closest to God and Highest in heaven (according to the Dionysian shema)

Lucifer lead the revold against God as described in Genesis and covered in greater detail in the Book of Enoch (now considered to be Apochryphal by the church). Lucifer leads an apparently justified uprising and in the end is defeated by God's loyal angels.

Satan plays a rather different role in Biblic lore. Satan is the tempter, the trickster, and and deciever. Satan, by some middle-age chroniclers was considered an angel sent by God to tempt mankind as a test. (as God cannot make Satan as powerful as himself, otherwise monotheist could not hold)
This "testing" is also seen in the Book of Job and all throughout the various versions of holy scripture, Judaism, Christian, or Islam.

It is also impertant to keep in mind that the Bible speaks primarily of Satan metaphorically and as an abstract entity than as any specific being.

Thus anything "Satanic" is by definition merely an advisary of God. One could argue that priests who touch little boys are "Satanic", though they may be devout believers in God.

The devil is even more vauge, as it can determine anything devil-ish or demonic.

There, that should clear some things up.

Hope you have fun.

~Wizdro out

Technically, Judas is the one who 'saved' the Christians. Jesus didn't just walk up to the Romans and say "Make Jew Jerky of Me!"

Of course, this all could have been avoided if the Christian deity had said, "Ah, screw it, see this pillar of fire? It means you're all saved if you're good people, so lighten up!"

One thing i've never been sure of, and I may be showing my ignorance here 'cos it really isn't my field of expertise but...

Why would Romans care about killing Jewish heretics?

The Roman Empire was struggling to keep its very isolated areas of influence under control, and that is very hard to do with religious conflict.

Under Constantine, the Kannon of Catholicism as we know it today was established, and anything that deviated from that religious agreement was strictly against Rome.

Rome had nothing personal against Jews, they slaughtered Druids, Gypsies, Islamic peoples, African and Egyptian peoples and any others I have failed to mention just as equally.

Technically, Judas is the one who 'saved' the Christians. Jesus didn't just walk up to the Romans and say "Make Jew Jerky of Me!"

Of course, this all could have been avoided if the Christian deity had said, "Ah, screw it, see this pillar of fire? It means you're all saved if you're good people, so lighten up!"

:) I might not have phrased it quite like that...

The problem with the 'pillar of fire' idea - is that it misses what Judeo-Christian theology has always been about. And that is, Killing Things.

From Cain's sacrifice of his most treasured thing, to Jacob's sacrifice of his most treasured thing, to 'god' sacrificing his most treasured thing, the one CONSISTENT thread throughout the whole biblical scripture, is the sanctity of spilling blood.

Yaaaaaaaay! Bloodshed!

Let's have a big round of applause for the foundation of organized religion.