NationStates Jolt Archive

Why are the Chinese being such dicks about it?

There'll be fog on the shore tonight. Eh, Bosun?

Because they are communists.

Dirty commie bastards.

Dirty commie bastards.We have a brain fixing machine, sir. Would you like that, sir?

Because they are communists.

Since when?

If I call myself a duck, would you accept it, even if I'm plainly *not* (in fact) a duck?

Since when?

If I call myself a duck, would you accept it, even if I'm plainly *not* (in fact) a duck?
Do you weigh as much as one?

China is a fascist nation that is far more capitalist than the US.

China is a fascist nation that is far more capitalist than the US.

Actually they have more extensive social programs due to greater population density demands, but far worse safety and healthcare concerns. It is a social capitalist state like the US which, unlike the US, actively dismantles special interests like Labor and Environmental Protection by means of intimidation and active removal. The government of China itself steals far too much for it to really be considered "more capitalist," especially considering that your description of China as fascist is vaguely accurate, and Fascism does generally impede capitalism as it is a populist system of management.

Since when?

If I call myself a duck, would you accept it, even if I'm plainly *not* (in fact) a duck?


sure... if you think yer a duck then yer a duck. simple as that. Why make things more complicated than they need to be?

Should I not listen to what you tell me and keep asking you, "No, really... what are you?"

Should I hire a private investigator to follow you around and see if you really do what ducks do?

No, when someone asks me what Shaed is I will say "Shaed is a duck."

"Shaed doesn't look or act like a duck", they tell me.

"Then call Shaed whatever the hell you want.", I say. "Call Shaed a communist or a fascist nazi jew. It really makes no difference."

Why are the Chinese being such dicks about it?

From what I can see, the answer is complicated, and lies in the nature of traditional Chinese culture as influenced (and distorted) by the Maoist revolution.

One factor is that Chinese culture lays much more emphasis on society-as-extended-family than we do in the west, especially with regard to the sense of identity both individual and corporate. So, anything too disruptive to society can come to be regarded as a threat to family coherence and so to the sense of self.

Another thing that strikes me is that in their history, when mystical religious practice becomes a mass movement, it can lead to political/social unrest on a scale we can't easily imagine. The so-called "Boxer Rebellion" is what I have in mind here. Read again about that movement, and imagine what it must have been like at the time. Then imagine the Chinese leaders pondering to themselves, "what would happen if Falun Gong practitioners ever decided to confront us in that way?"

One last thing about the government that stands out to me is that the peculiar nature of the way "communism" is interpreted into Chinese culture makes for a singular lack of tolerance towards dissidents of all types anyway (let us remember the people in Tiennanmen Square and honour them for what they tried to do). Large numbers of dissidents who are make no attempt to achieve harmony with the government, and who are unified by a strong ideology with spiritual or religioius overtones will always be treated even more harshly. They are a danger to the peace, coherence and sense of identity of the society, they threaten to disrupt the authority of the government, and of course, the are too much like the Maoist revolutionaries, to be tolerated.

It is also important that we don't overlook that Falun Gong is not always wise in the way they handle oppostion or outsiders in general. In my personal experience, they don't always handle anything they suspect of being criticism very well, sometimes treating even probing but essentially non-hostile questions as though they were attacks. It is as if the assumption is that anyone who does not simply accept their word for things, and accept their account of the way things are, is a potential opponent. The possibility that such an attitude may be no more than the desire to look at an issue from all sides before drawing conclusions, and that the person with such an attitude may be attempting to understand before deciding, does not seem to come easily to all Falun Gong members. At least, that has been my experience. In this, although they would hate to hear this, I found them eerily like spokespersons for the Chinese government on the same subject. To me, the two sides of this issue have most often been little more than "fundamentalists" in their mind-set, substituting their respective versions of communism and Buddhism for the things we more usually think of when we use the word "fundamentalism".

I think it may be more complex than even that, but I'm on my way to sleep. But I think we probably have to start there.

China is a fascist nation that is far more capitalist than the US.
Weren't you born in China, or was that another nation by the name ofHe Hate Me? I seem to remember him from long before October of this year.

China doesn't tolerate the falun gong because they are a stupid cult.

Falun Gong preaches “truthfulness, benevolence and forbearance,” while warning that people of mixed race will have difficulty finding a proper place in the afterlife. It also teaches that modern machines (such as computers and airplanes) were created by extraterrestrials disguised as human beings. Falun Gong devotees are taught that by practicing a series of five exercises they can develop a golden-colored spinning “falun” within their bodies which will enable them to absorb energy from different universes, while simultaneously attaining religious enlightenment and physical health.

Yes I plagerized this.

China doesn't tolerate the falun gong because they are a stupid cult.

Falun Gong preaches “truthfulness, benevolence and forbearance,” while warning that people of mixed race will have difficulty finding a proper place in the afterlife. It also teaches that modern machines (such as computers and airplanes) were created by extraterrestrials disguised as human beings. Falun Gong devotees are taught that by practicing a series of five exercises they can develop a golden-colored spinning “falun” within their bodies which will enable them to absorb energy from different universes, while simultaneously attaining religious enlightenment and physical health.

Yes I plagerized this.



Some people might like to argue that your conclusion that they are "a stupid cult" is phrased in especially unenlightening terms, but if we "unpack" the meaning of it, we might make it useful. Let's say "'stupid' = 'in a stupor, dulled in senses and mental functions'", and then let's say "'cult' = 'isolationist elitists who think they are the only people who know anything or do anything of value'". We end up with something like "a group of isolationist elitists who think they are the only people who know anything or do anything of value, but who in fact have come to be dulled in their senses and their mental functions, as if they were in a stupor". In that case your phrase is pretty accurate.

That still doesn't take account of the nature of the Red Chinese government itself, nor of their role in all this. To give just one example, they are the only country so far that has claimed to have "documentary evidence" of murders and suicides within Falun Gong. Nowhere else is it even suspected or reported, even by the most virulently anti-Falun Gong people. Now, examine the "evidence" China offers. I have. I'm inclined to say their "evidence" is at least as likely to represent the results of torture by Chinese interrogators as it is to show any "murders" or "suicides". Some of it is frankly impossible to regard seriously as inflicted by the Falun Gong people themselves, but much of it resembles tortures documented as having been carried out by the Red Chinese in other circumstances. As for the willingness of the Chinese government to kill large numbers of its own citizens if they don't like them, we need only to think back to Tiennanmen Square. If you can drive tanks over your own people without blinking, in plain view of the world, you probably won't stop at much else. Altogether, I consider those claims by the Chinese government unproven at best, and in bad faith at worst.

Does any of what I said exonerate Falun Gong for defrauding its followers and teaching a load of hot-and-steaming to anybody who's too polite to tell them where they can stick their Faluns? No! As con-jobs go, they're pretty bad -- not the worst, but pretty bad.

BUT -- I don't believe we can let the Chinese government off the hook either. If we go back to your words "stupid cult", and if use my proposed definition, "a group of isolationist elitists who think they are the only people who know anything or do anything of value, but who in fact have come to be dulled in their senses and their mental functions, as if they were in a stupor", we could just as easily be talking about Red China under the Beijing government. The main difference is that Red China is richer and is a growing military power not just in the region but worldwide. And they have ambitions that we can't yet guess -- no wonder Taiwan is worried about them.

I guess I'm saying that in Red China -vs- Falun Gong, I see it as a case of "stupid cult" -vs- "stupid cult".

I ask: Why is this stupid cult so threatening? What harm does it really do? Why does it deserve being stalked by the Chinese police? I really don't see any reason at all. Besides the fact that the Central Communist Party sees it as a threat to their power.

China doesn't tolerate the falun gong because they are a stupid cult.

Falun Gong preaches “truthfulness, benevolence and forbearance,” while warning that people of mixed race will have difficulty finding a proper place in the afterlife. It also teaches that modern machines (such as computers and airplanes) were created by extraterrestrials disguised as human beings. Falun Gong devotees are taught that by practicing a series of five exercises they can develop a golden-colored spinning “falun” within their bodies which will enable them to absorb energy from different universes, while simultaneously attaining religious enlightenment and physical health.

Yes I plagerized this.
Still no reason to arrest, torture and kill them.

China doesn't tolerate the falun gong because they are a stupid cult.


That's what the Romans said about the Christians...

LOL

Man, I have no sympathy for the Falun Gong people. They /cover/ New York City, handing out thier newspaper to people on their way to work and genenrally being a nuisance.
And /jeez/, yes the Chinese communists don't like religion... just ask the Tibetans.

Why are the Chinese being such dicks about it?
Because they are a nasty communist dictatorship that oppresses religion and any dissention.

Dirty commie scum. :)

Why are the Chinese government trying to ban this non-political organisation of Falun Gong? I think I know.

Falun Gong is the only organisation in China larger than the Communist Party. Why can't this be tolerated?

The Chinese government is one of the largest, most propagandist governments in history. They want to maintain and expand their mind control over the entire Chinese population. Falun Gong represents an alternative, liberty - a threat to the mind control agenda. They cannot tolerate that.

I'm an american member of Falun Gong. Unless you practice it, it's impossible to know if it's good or bad at all. To say it is a 'Stupid Cult' is somewhat unfair. Do I call other peoples beliefs stupid, such as Christianaty or Islam? Give something a chance before you call it stupid.

Now, since I am a member, does this mean that i do belive that airplanes were made by aliens? No. I am sensible. But practicing Falun Gong gives you an uncomparable peace you calm. That's all i have to say.

Why are the Chinese being such dicks about it?

Because they are seen as a threat to the power structure. In this respect the repression of Falun Gong is very much like that of Islam in the western parts of China or Vajrayana Buddhism in Tibet. All are seen as threats because they aren't answerable to the party.

(See Pure Thought's anwer above)

That's what the Romans said about the Christians...

LOL

They were right! Should have nipped that problem in the bud, perhaps we would be worshipping father Zeus now.

I'm an american member of Falun Gong. Unless you practice it, it's impossible to know if it's good or bad at all. To say it is a 'Stupid Cult' is somewhat unfair. Do I call other peoples beliefs stupid, such as Christianaty or Islam? Give something a chance before you call it stupid.

Now, since I am a member, does this mean that i do belive that airplanes were made by aliens? No. I am sensible. But practicing Falun Gong gives you an uncomparable peace you calm. That's all i have to say.

I apologize now for this long post. I think this is important enough to write carefully.

Ravea, you've reminded us of a valid and important point, that the individual members of any group, no matter what the nature of that group, cannot be regarded as uniform with all its other members, as though the group were somehow "homogenized".

But that reminder has to work both ways. The fact that you are sensible in how you pursue your practice isn't necessarily a statement about how others pursue theirs, one way or the other.

One example: would you be surprised to learn that a group of your fellow practitioners attempted to take over a meeting during a conference at a university last year? The meeting they attacked and ruined was not about them in any way, and they already had been invited to speak during another meeting later at the same conference. They refused to let the person who was supposed to speak have his full time unhindered, choosing instead to be so disruptive that they had to be asked to leave. During their own meeting, they were unpleasant to other conferees during the question time. Between meetings, they were unpleasant and hectoring to conferees in the halls. It was only when they were threatened with expulsion from the whole conference that they became less unpleasant.

How do I know this? I was at the conference. After all their fellow-practitioners have gone through in China, they managed to alienate many of the conferees who had been quite sympathetic to them before those events.

I'm going to stick my neck out here, and bet you (and many other faithful practitioners of Falun Gong) were never told that members of the group ever behaved in this fashion towards outsiders. I'm also going to bet you personally would never behave this way. This is why I say the reminder goes both ways. Just as you shouldn't be accused of the worst behaviour observed in other members, we can't be expected to assume that all members are as sensible as you are. By direct observation over a number of years now, I believe they aren't.

I'm sorry you felt insulted by the way some of us discussed your practice. It must be hard, reading some of the comments here. I suspect at least some of the contributions arise from feelings and experiences just as personal and intense (though negative) as your positive ones.

Speaking for myself, I meant you no harm or insult, and I don't believe others here did either. However, I meant what I said and I can defend it with personal observation and hard data.

You are proof that this is a difficult subject and its complexity needs to be considered in careful fashion. The complexity of this subject is the reason why I said I didn't think the phrase "stupid cult" was useful unless it were redefined, and it's the reason I attempted to give it more meaningful definition. It's also why I tried to call attention to the complexity of the situation as it really is in Communist China, where many of the charges against the group appear to most fair-minded observers to be manufactured and to be based on the political concerns of the government rather than on reality.

It may be that my definition does not fit the practice as you observe it, but that does not mean that it may not fit the practice as at least some of your fellow practitioners observe it. I'm sorry to say, my experience is that my definition fits very well in the case of a number of the practitioners I've met.

+++++++++

One thing should not escape the notice of any of us: if we were living within Communist China, we would not be allowed even to have this conversation. We would not be allowed to have access to this thread on the internet, and it is within my knowledge that attempting to discuss Falun Gong in a public place, say, in a tea house, would probably end with someone calling the police on us. Once they arrived, our lives could become unpleasant. It is in this environment that Chinese practitioners of Falun Gong live, and are sometimes murdered.

On the other hand, in the West there is no such danger. The only "danger" faced here by Falun Gong members is that people here are accustomed to questioning, challenging, and debating such beliefs and claims as are made by the group. If people dislike the group, they say so; if they think something in the group is ridiculous, they mock; if they think something lacks evidence, they challenge; and if they think something in the group is illegal, immoral or dishonest, they criticize. It is the same for all beliefs and practices, as you know.

The very real dangers of practising in Red China can never exempt the group from open examination and debate here. And if Falun Gong believers cannot endure disapproval, mockery, challenges and criticism, they will have a tough time outside of China as well as inside it. So although I regret that your feelings were hurt, and I appreciate being reminded that members are individuals, I must tell you, examination of Falun Gong by such debate is a fact of life. You will not serve Truth or yourself by dismissing such debate and criticism as "unfair". Open debate is so much fairer than arresting you in the dead of night, torturing you to death, and then displaying photos of your mangled body and claiming you did it to yourself or your fellow-practitioners did it to you, like the Communist Chinese do!

+++++++++

Sorry to go on, but I want to finish and leave it up to others, and you Ravea, to write.

Ravea, you wrote, "Unless you practice it, it's impossible to know if it's good or bad at all." And you went on to point out -- rightly -- that calling it stupid isn't helpful.

I'm attracted by your idea that only experience makes us able to evaluate it, I really am. Except for one thing. I wish I had a dollar -- no, make that half-a-dollar -- for every heroin addict who ever told me that I couldn't possibly know if using heroin is a bad thing or not because I'd never been a user. What do you think, Ravea, are all those heroin addicts right? Should society refrain from trying to stop the use of heroin, until all our lawmakers and law enforcers actually use it? I didn't think so.

In fact, your appeal to the authority of experience could be (and sometimes is) applied to all kinds of behaviour, often to things that aren't all that good for us although we may not realize it until it's too late. There are a great many things I have never experienced, but I am sure that they are thoroughly bad ideas. Free-falling out of a plane at 10,000 meters altitude without a parachute is one example that comes to mind. Experience may tell us a great deal about a thing, but it also may conceal a great deal from us about that same thing. I cannot accept your proposition that Falun Gong cannot be understood and evaluated except by practising it.

You admit that there is a difference between accepting Falun Gong at face value and being "sensible". Using your appeal to experience, I could perhaps say to you, 'how do you know if belief in the alien race is sensible or not until you believe it?' And because you are sensible, you might wonder if I was dropped on my head as a baby.

You end by writing, "...practicing Falun Gong gives you an uncomparable peace ..." I have no doubt that it gives you peace. However, the claim that Falun Gong gives peace that is incomparable to other kinds of peace simply cannot be argued. Nearly all forms of meditation cause people to feel peace, at least usually. But how are we to quantify that for comparison? "Peace" is such a subjective thing, it does not lend itself to such quantification. How do you know that the peace Falun Gong gives you is greater than the peace my meditation gives me? How do you compare the peace either of us experience with the peace experienced by the Dalai Lama? Or that which is experienced by D Suzuki? Or Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh? What about the peace written about by Juliana of Norwich, François Fénelon, or Sadhu Sundar Singh? Have you (or I) tried the methods they each used, that we can be sure to evaluate them accurately? Without trying them all, there can be no comparison. With trying them all, the comparison can only apply to that one individual who tried all the methods; at best, all he knows is how they compare within his own psychological and spiritual nature.

It is good that you find peace Ravea; our world sorely lacks peace, and we all suffer for that. It is good that you are able to maintain sense even within a group of people that does not always encourage sense in its members. I hope you will always be able to cling to those things. Thank you for being so open with us about yourself, and once more, I'm sorry if I offended you. I hope we can grow to understand each other better through this discussion.

"a group of isolationist elitists who think they are the only people who know anything or do anything of value, but who in fact have come to be dulled in their senses and their mental functions, as if they were in a stupor"

That description sounds so very familiar... :confused:

Yeah sorry for calling it a stupid cult, but thats what it is. Read about ithttp://www.apologeticsindex.org/f02.html and you will start to get the impression that these guys are not right in the head. Peace and harmony and all that are great but why not just practice good old fashion tai chi or yoga? The Falun Gong is most deffinitely a cult. Should they be beaten or killed? no but that doesn't mean the falun Gong is necessarily something the world needs. OF course they get huge support here becasue the opppose the Chinese government our enemies but if they started converting millions of Christians I am sure the American perception of them woud rapidly change.

Anyway as a general rule of thumb, if you join a religion founded in 1992 odds are you are signing up for a cult.

The falung gong were never bothered severely until they caused some large disturbances with regards to protesting and such... afterwards they were labelled as a cult... btw they still do bad things for example in HK they are allowed due to freedom of religion... so they highjacked some tv signals from a HK satellite and pumped their message onto the airwaves... the airwaves were going to Mainland china btw... when u do shit like this... the government is going to crack down

you can find the article on this on bbc news i believe

There'll be fog on the shore tonight. Eh, Bosun?

Why, if it isn't Barbara... Logan-Price....

Yeah sorry for calling it a stupid cult, but thats what it is. Read about ithttp://www.apologeticsindex.org/f02.html and you will start to get the impression that these guys are not right in the head. Peace and harmony and all that are great but why not just practice good old fashion tai chi or yoga? The Falun Gong is most deffinitely a cult. Should they be beaten or killed? no but that doesn't mean the falun Gong is necessarily something the world needs. OF course they get huge support here becasue the opppose the Chinese government our enemies but if they started converting millions of Christians I am sure the American perception of them woud rapidly change.

Anyway as a general rule of thumb, if you join a religion founded in 1992 odds are you are signing up for a cult.

Every religion was a 'cult' at some point.

Drawing up an arbitrary 'cult' origins date isn't helpful.

To the atheist, every religion involves a certain degree of being 'not-right-in-the-head'... so your 'stupid' cult comments aren't much help either.

From what I can see, the answer is complicated...

You said everything I was going to say. I hate you.

One thing I will add is that as well as the Boxers there's other cults that have caused the established regime serious problems in the past; off the top of my head I can think of the White Lotus Sect, the Niens, the Red Turbans and, most notably of all, the Taipings.

For those who don't know the Taipings were a sect influenced by Christianity who followed a leader, Hong Xiuquan, who claimed to be the brother of Jesus Christ. They rebelled against the Qing government in 1851 and managed to capture the old capital of Nanjing, even setting up a short lived Christian theocracy that covered most of southern of China. They were finally defeated in 1853, leaving about 20-30 million people dead, large parts of southern China ravaged and Nanjing wrecked.

All these movements started from small, unobtrusive religious sects.

The lesson of all this is that to understand the clampdown on Falun Gong you need to understand it within the context of Chinese history as a whole. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong, just that in part at least it's due to uniquely Chinese factors which are not widely understood or even known about in the west.


One thing should not escape the notice of any of us: if we were living within Communist China, we would not be allowed even to have this conversation. We would not be allowed to have access to this thread on the internet,


This isn't strictly true. Look at my location.