NationStates Jolt Archive

I was reading last weeks Time magazine and came across a '10 Question' interview with Billy Graham. Mostly the same drival but question #8 got my attention.

When asked about social issues he'd like to see Christians embrace such as poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis he was dismissive of all of them and said "The big issue is sin."

WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Whatever happened to Christian charity? Helping the unfortunate? Sin?!?

Billy, I hope Hell has a special place set aside just for you.

The Religious Right gets off on being Holier Than Thou to everyone who isn't a like-minded drone. Billy Graham is just one of the few who aren't afraid to admit that upfront.

The Devil's greatest evil was convincing the world he didn't exist. For his next trick, he got a whole bunch of people to do his dirty work in the name of Tha Lawd.

By "sin", I'm guessing he means homosexuality.

By "sin", I'm guessing he means homosexuality.

I think that's a reasonable reading of religious right-wing code.

Yep. The Religious Right's worst nightmare: Dawn of the Gay.

i.e. Dawn of the Dead with homosexuals instead of zombies.

Yep. The Religious Right's worst nightmare: Dawn of the Gay.

i.e. Dawn of the Dead with homosexuals instead of zombies.

What, I'm having visions of...uhh, people walking down the street. Like normal. The Religious Right must find most Disney pictures a tad frightening, let alone Dawn of the Gay. Or is it that the pictures move and talk that upsets them so. Who knows.

Does anyone else think the Religious Right will be utterly powerless 50 years from now?

They're driven by aging 70s televangelists, and have negligible support from anyone younger than 40.

Does anyone else think the Religious Right will be utterly powerless 50 years from now?

They're driven by aging 70s televangelists, and have negligible support from anyone younger than 40.

Yes, but they breed like rabbits...

LOL

Does anyone else think the Religious Right will be utterly powerless 50 years from now?

They're driven by aging 70s televangelists, and have negligible support from anyone younger than 40.
If trends stay the same, there is no change in the makeup of political parties, and noone gets older, yes.

Yep. The Religious Right's worst nightmare: Dawn of the Gay.

i.e. Dawn of the Dead with homosexuals instead of zombies.

It will be my goal, in my life time, to make this scenario come to pass.

I imagine Christians huddled tightly in a mall amidst hoards of gays, fending them off with copies of playboy and rubber vaginas. >.>

I was reading last weeks Time magazine and came across a '10 Question' interview with Billy Graham. Mostly the same drival but question #8 got my attention.

When asked about social issues he'd like to see Christians embrace such as poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis he was dismissive of all of them and said "The big issue is sin."

WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Whatever happened to Christian charity? Helping the unfortunate? Sin?!?

Billy, I hope Hell has a special place set aside just for you.

Ah, so this is the skillful trolling of which you spoke to me a few weeks ago.

Good job, it's really working out for you there, Pa.

Yep. The Religious Right's worst nightmare: Dawn of the Gay.

i.e. Dawn of the Dead with homosexuals instead of zombies.

What a great idea! ANd when they hug their victims, they turn gay too!

Sounds like a pleasant independent film project to consider.

Yep. The Religious Right's worst nightmare: Dawn of the Gay.

i.e. Dawn of the Dead with homosexuals instead of zombies.

Hey, so long as people in shopping malls are torn apart like fresh bread, I'm fine with it.

Ah, so this is the skillful trolling of which you spoke to me a few weeks ago.

Good job, it's really working out for you there, Pa.

You mean the way he was a point, an issue to ponder, and you usually don't? Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty effective way to post on the forum...

If you 'd like to try it, perhaps you'd start by addressing the issue he raises.

I was reading last weeks Time magazine and came across a '10 Question' interview with Billy Graham. Mostly the same drival but question #8 got my attention.

When asked about social issues he'd like to see Christians embrace such as poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis he was dismissive of all of them and said "The big issue is sin."

WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Whatever happened to Christian charity? Helping the unfortunate? Sin?!?

Billy, I hope Hell has a special place set aside just for you.

You're abit closed minded here... You need to step into his perspective as an evangelist... A christians primary duty is "preaching and teaching" not general social welfare. Within the realm of Christian thought sin is the reason for all the problems in the world; political, social or economic; and therefore, within their own theological construct they head into the source of the problem, rather than addressing secondary issues.... which from their perspective, all those other "social" issues are. For someone who claims to be liberal, you are frankly extremely rightist and bigoted in your perspectives of peoples personal views.

You mean the way he was a point, an issue to ponder, and you usually don't? Yeah, I'd say that's a pretty effective way to post on the forum...

If you 'd like to try it, perhaps you'd start by addressing the issue he raises.

No he's not. He gave me a condescending lecture last week about the finer points of trolling, and how he is an expert. (Look at his name). So no point.

And since you obviously don't follow my threads in any detail, you probably shouldn't be commenting at all.

No he's not. He gave me a condescending lecture last week about the finer points of trolling, and how he is an expert. (Look at his name). So no point.

And since you obviously don't follow my threads in any detail, you probably shouldn't be commenting at all.
And the amusing thing is, despite posting what a wonderful troll it is, this will probably continue for many a page.

And the amusing thing is, despite posting what a wonderful troll it is, this will probably continue for many a page.


It's true though. My fatwah on micheal moore (I don't think you were around for that one) lasted for like 20 pages.

Never mind the fake war or lazy poor.

It's true though. My fatwah on micheal moore (I don't think you were around for that one) lasted for like 20 pages.

Never mind the fake war or lazy poor.
Ah, but the shooting burglars one got to about page 26, if I remember rightly.

Ah, but the shooting burglars one got to about page 26, if I remember rightly.


Yes the burglars. Tho' I help there from someone who really did want to shoot people.

This board is priceless.

You're abit closed minded here... You need to step into his perspective as an evangelist... A christians primary duty is "preaching and teaching" not general social welfare. Within the realm of Christian thought sin is the reason for all the problems in the world; political, social or economic; and therefore, within their own theological construct they head into the source of the problem, rather than addressing secondary issues.... which from their perspective, all those other "social" issues are. For someone who claims to be liberal, you are frankly extremely rightist and bigoted in your perspectives of peoples personal views.


Bigoted, the original poster cretainly is. Rightist, this person is in no way shape or form. Leftists are ALWAYS bigoted, yes, ALWAYS. Leftist "ideals" are not popular with 80% of the people in the United States (ie, getting rid of religion, being OK with abortion, income-redistribution) and they can't get their agenda thru on the merits of the agenda because it is BAD! Therefore, they use personal attacks on people; calling them racist and "closed-minded" or heartless, "homophobic" even.
Religious people have as much a right to be religious as you people do to be...whatever on Earth it is that you are. The pope has a new word for people like the original poster: "Christianophobe".

P.S. The poster quoted is correct in his/her analysis of Mr. Graham's perspective: Witout sin, there would be no poverty or crime or "social injustice". - We all sin, however, but that's why Jesus came, so that we can be forgiven and not be interned in hell forever.

P.P.S. George Bush is NOT, and "big corporations" are NOT, responsible for poverty or "social injustice".

Bigoted, the original poster cretainly is. Rightist, this person is in no way shape or form. Leftists are ALWAYS bigoted, yes, ALWAYS. Leftist "ideals" are not popular with 80% of the people in the United States (ie, getting rid of religion, being OK with abortion, income-redistribution) and they can't get their agenda thru on the merits of the agenda because it is BAD! Therefore, they use personal attacks on people; calling them racist and "closed-minded" or heartless, "homophobic" even.
Religious people have as much a right to be religious as you people do to be...whatever on Earth it is that you are. The pope has a new word for people like the original poster: "Christianophobe".

P.S. The poster quoted is correct in his/her analysis of Mr. Graham's perspective: Witout sin, there would be no poverty or crime or "social injustice". - We all sin, however, but that's why Jesus came, so that we can be forgiven and not be interned in hell forever.

P.P.S. George Bush is NOT, and "big corporations" are NOT, responsible for poverty or "social injustice".

You're going to get much help from me, I find general US leftist and rightist mentality with contempt... US "leftism" possesses no true fundemental difference between US "rightism"... Both views are fundamentally anti-american in their nature... We need more true liberals....... those of libertine mindset.

I was reading last weeks Time magazine and came across a '10 Question' interview with Billy Graham. Mostly the same drival but question #8 got my attention.

When asked about social issues he'd like to see Christians embrace such as poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis he was dismissive of all of them and said "The big issue is sin."

WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Whatever happened to Christian charity? Helping the unfortunate? Sin?!?

Billy, I hope Hell has a special place set aside just for you.
Christianity is a religion predicated on denial, so it can hardly come as a surprise when its leaders deny actual problems in favor of perpetuating their own importance. Billy just wants more people to listen to his personal instructions and give money to his church, and people who are dying of AIDS or starving to death aren't likely going to contribute much so he couldn't care less about them.

No he's not. He gave me a condescending lecture last week about the finer points of trolling, and how he is an expert. (Look at his name). So no point.

And since you obviously don't follow my threads in any detail, you probably shouldn't be commenting at all.

Oh dear, I must have missed the announcement which decreed that a close reading of your threads was mandatory before addressing you. Will there be a test? However shall I make amends? How about I start with, "Bite me."

Get over yourself, I'll comment whenever I damn well feel like it. He raised a point - Jesus was about tackling real issues while on earth (i.e. dining with prositutes and tax collectors rather than sitting in a temple discussing scripture), and whatever happened to that when Christians like Graham make such statements? Perfectly valid, regardless of what he said to you last week (what do you think this is, the gossip corner in the cafeteria?). If it's trolling, it's pretty poor, since there's actually some substance there, and it's neither poorly thought out nor horrendously slanted. Modern Christianity does have a problem with sticking its head in the clouds, so to speak.

Oh dear, I must have missed the announcement which decreed that a close reading of your threads was mandatory before addressing you. Will there be a test? However shall I make amends? How about I start with, "Bite me."

Get over yourself, I'll comment whenever I damn well feel like it. He raised a point - Jesus was about tackling real issues while on earth (i.e. dining with prositutes and tax collectors rather than sitting in a temple discussing scripture), and whatever happened to that when Christians like Graham make such statements? Perfectly valid, regardless of what he said to you last week (what do you think this is, the gossip corner in the cafeteria?). If it's trolling, it's pretty poor, since there's actually some substance there, and it's neither poorly thought out nor horrendously slanted. Modern Christianity does have a problem with sticking its head in the clouds, so to speak.


Actually he was talking about Billy Graham. So, in other words, the purported article merely asserts that there exists at least one christian that does not agree with his assesment of how question eight should be answered. Further, said christian should go to hell. It really doesn't say much more. This well thought out point seems to be your own interpretation.

You do know that the Dalai Lama considers homosexuality unatural don't you.

Now run along and start condemning buddhists for their lack of tolerance.

As somebody who makes only infrequent guest appearences on this forum, may I just comment on how very arguementative you all are.

P.s Just to join in, I am a Catholic and I think that Jesus' views are very left wing, much more so than the ultra-capitalist Democratic party of America. This strange American entity of a Religious Right is deeply confusing to me.

your own interpretation.

You do know that the Dalai Lama considers homosexuality unatural don't you.

Now run along and start condemning buddhists for their lack of tolerance.
Buddhists have a hive mind?

Buddhists have a hive mind?

Yes, they clearly do. Just like christians.

As somebody who makes only infrequent guest appearences on this forum, may I just comment on how very arguementative you all are.

P.s Just to join in, I am a Catholic and I think that Jesus' views are very left wing, much more so than the ultra-capitalist Democratic party of America. This strange American entity of a Religious Right is deeply confusing to me.
Have you read "Marzism and Christianity," by Denys Turner [IIRC]?

Reading whole tracts of threads is beyond me. In this series, some time back, a person presumed that Billy Graham meant that sin was homosexual behavior. Actually, sin is whatever separates a human from God. There is a lot of sin in the world. I think the Rev. Graham wants people to understand that they sin, and that they can be forgiven by God for those sins when they accept that Jesus was the mortal incarnation of God, who came to teach humans about love and forgiveness.

And, adding a brief bit to my last statement, the person must accept Jesus as their Savior from sin -- if they want eternal life in Heaven. This is a choice. God gave us free will. Not everyone will choose to be a Christian. Living as a Christian, however, does include showing love, mercy, compassion and forgiveness, among other things. Therefore, if a person is hungry, even if he or she is not of a like mind regarding homosexuality, or anything else, then we must feed them. We must love all people, even those whom we may initially think are enemies. Christians do not let others suffer, when they can relieve that suffering. Let's feed the hungry, no matter what they believe. Let's house the homeless, whether they are atheists, pagans, Christians or whatever.

Reading whole tracts of threads is beyond me. In this series, some time back, a person presumed that Billy Graham meant that sin was homosexual behavior. Actually, sin is whatever separates a human from God. There is a lot of sin in the world. I think the Rev. Graham wants people to understand that they sin, and that they can be forgiven by God for those sins when they accept that Jesus was the mortal incarnation of God, who came to teach humans about love and forgiveness.
Ah, but is it the biggest issue facing the world? Is it more important than helping the needy?

Ah, but is it the biggest issue facing the world? Is it more important than helping the needy?

Jebus did say that there would alway be poor though, so if your a christian maybe the needy aren't the first priority.

Jebus did say that there would alway be poor though, so if your a christian maybe the needy aren't the first priority.
True. We need the poor because we need someone to help, in order to be good people. They're an important part of the community. I was down the soup kitchen only last week.

BTW, who the hell was Jebus?

True. We need the poor because we need someone to help, in order to be good people. They're an important part of the community. I was down the soup kitchen only last week.

BTW, who the hell was Jebus?

Jesus.

Jesus.
Oh.

Well, you're quite correct when you say that "Graham nailed it" but perhaps not in the way you think. Billy Graham bases his understanding of the world on the Bible. From a Biblical perspective the problems of the world (eg: hunger, war, hatred, etc ...) all stem from the fact that we're all sinful. You don't need to teach a child to lie or be selfish; you don't need to teach a nation to go to war. These things all come naturally to us because of our sinful natures. So, if the world take care of its sin problem first, the world would be a much better place. Now, Graham's message (and the Bible's for that matter) is that you and I cannot take care of our sin problem on our own, but must do so through Jesus Christ who is completely sinless. He is willing and able to forgive us of our sins and to bring us into a fruitful relationship with Him such that sin will be become a smaller and smaller part of our lives. After all, the highest commandment according to Christ is, "Love your neighbour as yourself and love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength."

Well, you're quite correct when you say that "Graham nailed it" but perhaps not in the way you think. Billy Graham bases his understanding of the world on the Bible. From a Biblical perspective the problems of the world (eg: hunger, war, hatred, etc ...) all stem from the fact that we're all sinful. You don't need to teach a child to lie or be selfish; you don't need to teach a nation to go to war. These things all come naturally to us because of our sinful natures. So, if the world take care of its sin problem first, the world would be a much better place. Now, Graham's message (and the Bible's for that matter) is that you and I cannot take care of our sin problem on our own, but must do so through Jesus Christ who is completely sinless. He is willing and able to forgive us of our sins and to bring us into a fruitful relationship with Him such that sin will be become a smaller and smaller part of our lives. After all, the highest commandment according to Christ is, "Love your neighbour as yourself and love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength."
That's what I thought, but it was more fun not to point it out.

People give talking heads like Billy Graham more power than they actually yield. "Religious right" is actually practicing Christians with conservative political leanings. Lumping them all in with Billy Graham and Pat Robertson is like lumping all liberals in with Michael Moore. Talking heads talk loud and with authority, giving an illusion of power greater than what they actually possess.

People give talking heads like Billy Graham more power than they actually yield. "Religious right" is actually practicing Christians with conservative political leanings. Lumping them all in with Billy Graham and Pat Robertson is like lumping all liberals in with Michael Moore. Talking heads talk loud and with authority, giving an illusion of power greater than what they actually possess.
Like Osama Bin Laden.

Like Osama Bin Laden.

I'm no fan of Billy Graham or Pat Robertson but I'm not sure of the validity of that comparison. Unless you're implying Osama Bin Laden is Billy Graham to the Nth degree.

"Leftist "ideals" are not popular with 80% of the people in the United States"

First off this stat is wrong (as 49% voted Democrat +/- a few for fraud), but beyond that it IS popular with the rest of the Educated Western world.

The difference? The other countries tried Capitalist Colonialism already and it failed miserably. Americans will eventually come to realise the error in their close minded, thinly veiled sexists, racist, mysogynist, homophobic waysthat this does not work.

Billy Graham, Michael Moore, Ann Coulter, Osama bin Laden are all different sides of the same coin, the one that believes they are absolutely right and there is no other truth to what they say.

Good luck with this, but when the next attack happens perhaps you should ask why instead of looking for the next country to bomb.

Lumping them all in with Billy Graham and Pat Robertson is like lumping all liberals in with Michael Moore.
Lumping Billy Graham in with the Pat Robertson / Jerry Falwell school of hatred and fundraising isn't fair to Billy Graham.

I have no use for any evangelists, but Graham is at least a class act. He's about saving people according to the tenets of his religion, not primarily for raising money or running for office. He deserves repect for not being a hypocrite about it, something the others can't claim.

Oh dear, I must have missed the announcement which decreed that a close reading of your threads was mandatory before addressing you. Will there be a test? However shall I make amends? How about I start with, "Bite me."

Get over yourself, I'll comment whenever I damn well feel like it. He raised a point - Jesus was about tackling real issues while on earth (i.e. dining with prositutes and tax collectors rather than sitting in a temple discussing scripture), and whatever happened to that when Christians like Graham make such statements? Perfectly valid, regardless of what he said to you last week (what do you think this is, the gossip corner in the cafeteria?). If it's trolling, it's pretty poor, since there's actually some substance there, and it's neither poorly thought out nor horrendously slanted. Modern Christianity does have a problem with sticking its head in the clouds, so to speak.

(large obnoxious klaxon goes off) Oh, I'm sorry, you lost....

Dude, there is little difference... Christ sat with, and preached to these people, called "sinners"... Which is what Graham has been doing for decades... Now you are advocating a false historical presumption to justify his previous viewpoints, which are inherantly self-deceptive... You do realize there are somewhere along the order of several thousand "Billy Graham Hate pages" run by "Religious Right" organizations that specifically condemn him for association with sinners, and more or less not preaching hate. (Same accusations made by the Pharisees, more or less, upon Christ)... The fact that the author of this thread, and yourself, would clump him in with the "Religious Right" is laughable, and indicative of a mental and logical failure on your part to realistically process data and formulate functional honest conclusions... Merely because someone is Christian, does not make them a part of the Religious Right.... There are fundamental differences... The Religious Rights seeks to propound their view by deception, and power-hoarding, through the imposition of political force.... People like Graham do not do that... they follow their own masters teachings, and go out and actually preach and teach people in the world... And to top it off, Billy Graham, his son, and his church, have a long history of inter-cooperation with the Salvation Army.... Stop acting like a blind fool.

Does anyone else think the Religious Right will be utterly powerless 50 years from now?

They're driven by aging 70s televangelists, and have negligible support from anyone younger than 40.
Not true. They have legions of misguided self-hating teenagers who pledge abstinence until marriage either because they can't get laid, or so their parents won't suspect they are getting laid. Kids in college who prey on their lonely homesick peers and try to get them to join prayer meetings and bible study groups. There are plenty of young fundies waiting for their chance to screw up the country.

I'm no fan of Billy Graham or Pat Robertson but I'm not sure of the validity of that comparison. Unless you're implying Osama Bin Laden is Billy Graham to the Nth degree.
No, I meant this bit:

Talking heads talk loud and with authority, giving an illusion of power greater than what they actually possess.

Yes, but they breed like rabbits...

LOL
that because they are afraid of abortions and not taught to use any form of birth control

Actually he was talking about Billy Graham. So, in other words, the purported article merely asserts that there exists at least one christian that does not agree with his assesment of how question eight should be answered. Further, said christian should go to hell. It really doesn't say much more. This well thought out point seems to be your own interpretation.

"WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?"

Sounds like a point about Christians in general to me. There's nothing at all wrong with citing a person who presents an apt example of one's point regarding a group to which he belongs and using it to start a thread. In fact, many threads are started that way. However, he was only speaking of Billy Graham when he mentioned Hell. Hmm, guess you must have mistakenly flipped those two, huh? That's okay...a lack of critical thinking doesn't usually yield perfect results. ;)

You do know that the Dalai Lama considers homosexuality unatural don't you.

Now run along and start condemning buddhists for their lack of tolerance.

Weren't you the idiot who kept making stupid claims on that thread a while back, like "The Dalai Lama is the head of the Buddhist religion?" I guess you did learn something from that debate...but it only shows how narrow your mind is. Out of all of that, all you took away was "The Dalai Lama considers homosexuality unnatural," and it seems you completely forgot the next part. You know, the part about how he doesn't feel it natural, but feels that each person has a right to decide what how they'd like to live. Oops again, huh?

Or, are you just playing dumb to troll (but I repeat myself)?

You do know that the Dalai Lama considers homosexuality unatural don't you.
Someone can consider homosexuality unnatural if they want, that's their own opinion. But they cross the line when they actively oppress gays.

In that case, you'll find a world of difference between the Dalai Lama and the Jerry Falwell crowd.

(large obnoxious klaxon goes off) Oh, I'm sorry, you lost....

Gee, your alarm seems to need some adjustment, it went off before you posted. Now, let me point out each thing you got wrong...

Dude, there is little difference... Christ sat with, and preached to these people, called "sinners"... Which is what Graham has been doing for decades...

Go back and show me where I said that Graham specifically was a hypocrite and did no social work in his life. Oh, that's right, my point was that modern Christians as a whole seem to do this. It was also a comment on the attitude presented, not his history. We don't even know what Graham meant (those who say he was speaking about the causes of those hardships as sin are very likely right), but he inadvertantly said something interesting nonetheless.

Now you are advocating a false historical presumption to justify his previous viewpoints, which are inherantly self-deceptive...

Big words...makes a horrid quagmire of a sentence, though. That made no sense.

You do realize there are somewhere along the order of several thousand "Billy Graham Hate pages" run by "Religious Right" organizations that specifically condemn him for association with sinners, and more or less not preaching hate. (Same accusations made by the Pharisees, more or less, upon Christ)...The fact that the author of this thread, and yourself, would clump him in with the "Religious Right" is laughable, and indicative of a mental and logical failure on your part to realistically process data and formulate functional honest conclusions... Merely because someone is Christian, does not make them a part of the Religious Right.... There are fundamental differences... The Religious Rights seeks to propound their view by deception, and power-hoarding, through the imposition of political force.... People like Graham do not do that... they follow their own masters teachings, and go out and actually preach and teach people in the world... And to top it off, Billy Graham, his son, and his church, have a long history of inter-cooperation with the Salvation Army.... Stop acting like a blind fool.

Oh, spare me the Christ comparisons. Michael Savage regularly calls Bush a liberal, but that doesn't make it any more true. People are what they are by degrees, but this is beside the point - Graham is not the focus of anything I've said. Anyway, back to the point, what's the heading of this thread? Oh, yeah...Billy Graham nails it - the problem with the religious right." I'd say that Billy Graham did nail the problem with the religious right...but I said nothing about lumping him in with it, and I've said nothing belittling Graham as all. So, spare me your kneejerk overreactions as well. I like the part in bold above...it's like the banner for your response.

I'd call the blind fool the person who just spent a paragraph putting words into my mouth. Read a little more carefully next time.

Actually he was talking about Billy Graham. So, in other words, the purported article merely asserts that there exists at least one christian that does not agree with his assesment of how question eight should be answered. Further, said christian should go to hell. It really doesn't say much more. This well thought out point seems to be your own interpretation.

You do know that the Dalai Lama considers homosexuality unatural don't you.

Now run along and start condemning buddhists for their lack of tolerance.'Purported Article', junior? Nov. 29, 2004 Time magazine, page 8. One of the finer points of trolling is don't make shit up. He was asked about social issues he thought Christians should embrace with the interviewer asking about poverty, famine and the aids crisis specifically. "The big issue is sin." is an accurate quote from his answer and although there was more, it is also an accurate summation of it. You should try reading the whole thing yourself before you try to actually post anything that might make you look stupid.

Whoops.

Too late.

Another fine point of trolling is knowing what a parody is, when someones yanking your chain to get a reaction and what's for real.

Don't look to me for any clues there buddy boy, you're too much fun when you're hooked and thrashing on the line.

I was reading last weeks Time magazine and came across a '10 Question' interview with Billy Graham. Mostly the same drival but question #8 got my attention.

When asked about social issues he'd like to see Christians embrace such as poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis he was dismissive of all of them and said "The big issue is sin."

WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Whatever happened to Christian charity? Helping the unfortunate? Sin?!?

Billy, I hope Hell has a special place set aside just for you.

OK, I'm sorry if I'm reading this wrongly, since I do not have the said article. But what I seem to be reading is that you are implying that Mr Graham is overlooking all the social problems by saying that 'The big issue is sin'. If this is what is happening then I'm afraid you are badly mistaken. Mr Graham is saying we should tackle sin. Ignoring poverty, famine, and the well-being of our neighbours is clearly sin. So Mr Graham is not asking us to dismiss them all. On the contrary he is asking Christians not to sin, in addition to guiding the lost away from sin, which encompasses charity and helping the unfortunate. So he's actually asking us to embrace ALL of these social issues in a way that is pleasing to God.

Wassamatter? Can't anybody read a week old Time magizine article? If picking up an actual magazine is too much I'm sure you can find it online if you really tried.

No. Billy's not talking about not addressing social issues being a sin. He actually mentions original sin and that garden of eden crap. That's the 'social issue' he thinks is more important than poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis.

Get why it pisses me off so much now?

'Purported Article', junior? Nov. 29, 2004 Time magazine, page 8. One of the finer points of trolling is don't make shit up. He was asked about social issues he thought Christians should embrace with the interviewer asking about poverty, famine and the aids crisis specifically. "The big issue is sin." is an accurate quote from his answer and although there was more, it is also an accurate summation of it. You should try reading the whole thing yourself before you try to actually post anything that might make you look stupid.

Whoops.

Too late.

Another fine point of trolling is knowing what a parody is, when someones yanking your chain to get a reaction and what's for real.

Don't look to me for any clues there buddy boy, you're too much fun when you're hooked and thrashing on the line.


And another pointless lecture. Well done.

And another pointless lecture. Well done.Thank You.



You should recieve my bill by the end of the week.

You're abit closed minded here... You need to step into his perspective as an evangelist... A christians primary duty is "preaching and teaching" not general social welfare. Within the realm of Christian thought sin is the reason for all the problems in the world; political, social or economic; and therefore, within their own theological construct they head into the source of the problem, rather than addressing secondary issues.... which from their perspective, all those other "social" issues are. For someone who claims to be liberal, you are frankly extremely rightist and bigoted in your perspectives of peoples personal views.

Funny, since the majority of Jesus' preaching and teaching seemed to be focused on charity, kindness, and forgiveness. The only times he talked about were to say we all have done it, move on. He had a lot to say about being good to one another though.

Funny, since the majority of Jesus' preaching and teaching seemed to be focused on charity, kindness, and forgiveness. The only times he talked about were to say we all have done it, move on. He had a lot to say about being good to one another though.

Jesus' teachings are aimed mroe towards how to be a human then how to get into heaven.

Thank you, Paul. :rolleyes:

Bigoted, the original poster cretainly is. Rightist, this person is in no way shape or form. Leftists are ALWAYS bigoted, yes, ALWAYS. Leftist "ideals" are not popular with 80% of the people in the United States (ie, getting rid of religion, being OK with abortion, income-redistribution) and they can't get their agenda thru on the merits of the agenda because it is BAD! Therefore, they use personal attacks on people; calling them racist and "closed-minded" or heartless, "homophobic" even.
Religious people have as much a right to be religious as you people do to be...whatever on Earth it is that you are. The pope has a new word for people like the original poster: "Christianophobe".

P.S. The poster quoted is correct in his/her analysis of Mr. Graham's perspective: Witout sin, there would be no poverty or crime or "social injustice". - We all sin, however, but that's why Jesus came, so that we can be forgiven and not be interned in hell forever.

P.P.S. George Bush is NOT, and "big corporations" are NOT, responsible for poverty or "social injustice".
Wow, you're really blind to reality aren't you?

1. Bigotry is neither left-wing or right-wing in particular. There are bigots on both wings. There are plenty of non-bigots on both left and right.

2. Where do you get 80% from?

3. Getting rid of religion is not on the left wing agenda.

4. The problem is not individuals being religious. The problem is those people forcing us all to be religious. Maybe some of us don't want to be Christians?

5. Yes, cutting wages, exterminating unions and stopping social welfare obviously have nothing to do with poverty or social injustice. :rolleyes:

You're abit closed minded here... You need to step into his perspective as an evangelist... A christians primary duty is "preaching and teaching" not general social welfare. Within the realm of Christian thought sin is the reason for all the problems in the world; political, social or economic; and therefore, within their own theological construct they head into the source of the problem, rather than addressing secondary issues.... which from their perspective, all those other "social" issues are. For someone who claims to be liberal, you are frankly extremely rightist and bigoted in your perspectives of peoples personal views. Yeah, but the Neocontelevangeistreligious"Christian"right (what a good word!..) JUST focus on homosexuality and abortion, because they are easy to preach on. Jesus specifically said that people should care for sinners - but they condemn them. This is the WHOLE religious right. The big issue is not just sin - but even by "sin" they don't mean all sin. For example, they don't mean helping the poor in the country.

Does anyone else think the Religious Right will be utterly powerless 50 years from now?

They're driven by aging 70s televangelists, and have negligible support from anyone younger than 40.


Im afraid its going to get worse. I know lots of fruity religious christians. They worship, do missionary work and are a general pain in the ASS. So before you say "well thats not so bad"

Worshiping = pentacostal worship. These people are nuts. Image a large room with 200 people running around slapping each other up side the head so the "holy spirt" can invade you and fill you with it's love. <<<fucking wacko

Missionary work = Going to areas like catholic Mexico and telling people outside catholic churches that the pope is " a minor demon"

General pain in the ass = Roomate who suddenly "found Jesus" and invites all his clone christain friends over to read the bible + play gituar and GET ON MY FUCKING NERVES.

What we need are some MONGOLS to come and kill a whole bunch of christains!!!

Funny, since the majority of Jesus' preaching and teaching seemed to be focused on charity, kindness, and forgiveness. The only times he talked about were to say we all have done it, move on. He had a lot to say about being good to one another though.

Thats the catholic "old school" version of Jesus 's teachings not the new school christian fruit view...

Its nice to know there are so many people that don't attempt to understand Christianity and hate it anyway.
Thanks guys. You really helped to boost my confidence in the human race.

I was reading last weeks Time magazine and came across a '10 Question' interview with Billy Graham. Mostly the same drival but question #8 got my attention.

When asked about social issues he'd like to see Christians embrace such as poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis he was dismissive of all of them and said "The big issue is sin."

WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Whatever happened to Christian charity? Helping the unfortunate? Sin?!?

Billy, I hope Hell has a special place set aside just for you.

Sin has been and always will be until Jesus comes back, be the biggest "issue".

Obviously, Christians already are helping fight the AIDS crisis with the missionaries sent around the world, who also help against famine, and the overwhelming number of Christian charities.

Its nice to know there are so many people that don't attempt to understand Christianity and hate it anyway.
Thanks guys. You really helped to boost my confidence in the human race.

The intense hatred of Christianity from the extremist left will never cease to amaze me.

The intense hatred of Christianity from the extremist left will never cease to amaze me.

Kinda like the intense hatred for anything NON Christian from the extremist right, eh? ;)

Its nice to know there are so many people that don't attempt to understand Christianity and hate it anyway.
Thanks guys. You really helped to boost my confidence in the human race.
I fully understand Christianity. I was raised Roman Catholic, went to church weekly, and even went to a Catholic school from 6th to 8th grade. I was baptized and recieved communion. I read from the Bible and did good in Religion class.

I lost my faith a few years ago. I hate Christianity with a passion. To be fair, I have an overwhelming dislike of all organized religion, and probably dislike what passes for mainstream Islam even more, but Christianity is the one that I constantly find myself opposing in America, on abortion, gay marriage, etc.

I think Christianity is a destructive force in America. And I fully understand the religion as well. It's probably because I was brainwashed for so long that I hate it with such a passion.

Don't assume opposition to Christianity comes from people who "don't understand it".

The intense hatred of Christianity from the extremist left will never cease to amaze me.
I don't particularly identify with the extremist Left. I'm a fan of regulated capitalism and small government. I think we have too much gun control. If the Republican Party ditched the Jerry Falwell crowd and actually worked to reduce government interference in our private lives, I might be tempted to vote for them.

I was reading last weeks Time magazine and came across a '10 Question' interview with Billy Graham. Mostly the same drival but question #8 got my attention.

When asked about social issues he'd like to see Christians embrace such as poverty, famine or the AIDS crisis he was dismissive of all of them and said "The big issue is sin."

WTF!! Sin?!? That's the big social issue that Christians should embrace?
Jesus Christ on a pogo stick! Whatever happened to Christian charity? Helping the unfortunate? Sin?!?

Billy, I hope Hell has a special place set aside just for you.

You clearly have a lack of understanding of what SIN is

Thats the catholic "old school" version of Jesus 's teachings not the new school christian fruit view...

That's a reading of the Bible, not just throwing out what is easiest to follow.

Obviously, Christians already are helping fight the AIDS crisis with the missionaries sent around the world

you mean like the missionaries in Africa who tell people condoms cause AIDS, and tell married men who are HIV positive that they shouldn't use condoms to protect their wives from getting the disease? you mean like the missionaries who tell Africans that world health organizations, which are trying to spread accurate knowledge of contraception and AIDS prevention, are liars sent by Satan? according to the World AIDS Project, the biggest impediment to AIDS prevention in southern Africa is Christian missionaries...so exactly what help are they bringing?


The intense hatred of Christianity from the extremist left will never cease to amaze me.
how about intense hatred from someone who isn't left wing? i'm not left-wing by any stretch of the imagination, but i view Christianity in much the same way that i view heroine addiction...i believe it is distructive, dangerous, and an unworthy path for any human with intelligence and self-respect. i don't hate those who choose that path, any more than i hate drug addicts, but i do hate the organization that promotes it and the people who peddle such unhealthy behavior to vulnerable minds.

You clearly have a lack of understanding of what SIN is
:rolleyes: Yeah I must have missed that all those years in Catecism and during my confirmation in the Catholic Church.

You sir, like Billy, clearly have no understanding of what a social issue is. You confuse them with moral agendas and ignore the real teachings of Christ. Do you really think the man who preached love, acceptance and understanding, washed the feet of beggars, and dined with lepers and prostitutes would consider "Original Sin" a bigger issue than Poverty, Famine and AIDS?

:rolleyes: Yeah I must have missed that all those years in Catecism and during my confirmation in the Catholic Church.

You sir, like Billy, clearly have no understanding of what a social issue is. You confuse them with moral agendas and ignore the real teachings of Christ. Do you really think the man who preached love, acceptance and understanding, washed the feet of beggars, and dined with lepers and prostitutes would consider "Original Sin" a bigger issue than Poverty, Famine and AIDS?

You've never actually caught a fish, have you?

:rolleyes: Yeah I must have missed that all those years in Catecism and during my confirmation in the Catholic Church.

You sir, like Billy, clearly have no understanding of what a social issue is. You confuse them with moral agendas and ignore the real teachings of Christ. Do you really think the man who preached love, acceptance and understanding, washed the feet of beggars, and dined with lepers and prostitutes would consider "Original Sin" a bigger issue than Poverty, Famine and AIDS?

Considering that "poverty", "famine", "AIDS" (really all sorts of disease), etc. is the RESULT of sin.......

Look, all of you are over analizing this... Billy Graham is a preacher, and probably one of the few LEGITIMATE preachers left with a national following. And I know as much as all of you were probably rooting for somone of his standing to name your pet social issue as "the problem"... he is a preacher, and sin is THE PROBLEM, within his frame, because IT is the CAUSE of everything else. Christ himself addressed sin, FREQUENTLY... His primary duty was to save sinners, the rest of his work was secondary.... Billy Graham frequently demonstrates the same aspect of work... His primary duty is to preach and teach, and to present the Gospel to sinners... all else is secondary to that goal (but much of it is also in fulfillment). Mind you the QUESTION he was asked... He was responding, within his own frame, to the question of what was the biggest problem..... Not merely the ONLY problem...

Him responding that "sin" is the problem, is not of the same caliber as that nutjob Falwell standing up and vocally advocating violence and death against homosexuals or liberals.... It's rank idiocy to try to group the two together... which is what quite a few of you are trying to do..... I mean, look at yourselves, a man who has never been violent or meanspirited to anyone, saying "Well, I think sin is the real problem"..... and then you spinning it into him being a violence spitting rank homophobic, asshole like Falwell.... Do you really think you're justified in such assessments? You're basically standing there and interpreting his words into what you WANT him to have said, as opposed to what he ACTUALLY said, and with no actual bearing into the his character and history as a preacher...

Let's take a look at some of the things Dr. Graham has said in the past...

BILLY GRAHAM: "Yes, well I think that the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin, but the Bible also teaches that pride is a sin, jealously is a sin, and hate is a sin, evil thoughts are a sin, and so I don't think that homosexuality should be chosen as the overwhelming sin that we are doing today."

BILLY GRAHAM: "God stands in judgment of all sins, but AIDS is a disease that affects people and is not part of that judgment. To say that God has judged people with AIDS would be very wrong and cruel." (This one he said in retraction of a previous statement on AIDS being a judgement; since people were running with it as if everyone with AIDS was under God's judgement).

Mind you, he has been publically condemned by many Falwellian types out there for this stuff.... Condemned because he would rather be a preacher, witnessing to people; than a hate-mongerer passing judgment and public condemnation of "sinners".

So, just maybe, y'all should do some thinking over this issue...

Actually no Evangelical priest is legitimate, the roman catholic church wont acknowledge them and they acknowledge protestants [ well after 500 years ]
now anyways...wow...ok the point is that since america is an evangelical nation, thats the main faith...they listen to people like Graham for guidance. He says sin people think things like well sin..which is a pretty long list of big nothings for the very most part. And yeah i have heard right wingers call health care slavery and left wingers say churches must hold gay weddings, both views are wrong but thats beside the point. Point is someone who basically swung an election bush's way should be telling people to do good things like donate to medicines, help people out and help fight poverty...instead he says sin.

This means, generally your gonna have alot of people out there chasing down prostitutes and drug users, while ignoring the problems that cause them to be on the streets. And also wasting time trying to shut down porn and strip joints, bars anything that they percieve as sin. Thats the real problem, not his bigoted anti homosexual behaviour..cause read it as it is, he means ALL of the things that i just mentioned plus many more you can read about in the bible..jeez left wingers think the only thing the bible says is the gays are bad, right wingers think the bible is the true history of the world..lol i say phooey to em both lol.

Actually no Evangelical priest is legitimate, the roman catholic church wont acknowledge them and they acknowledge protestants [ well after 500 years ]
now anyways...wow...ok the point is that since america is an evangelical nation, thats the main faith...they listen to people like Graham for guidance. He says sin people think things like well sin..which is a pretty long list of big nothings for the very most part. And yeah i have heard right wingers call health care slavery and left wingers say churches must hold gay weddings, both views are wrong but thats beside the point. Point is someone who basically swung an election bush's way should be telling people to do good things like donate to medicines, help people out and help fight poverty...instead he says sin.

This means, generally your gonna have alot of people out there chasing down prostitutes and drug users, while ignoring the problems that cause them to be on the streets. And also wasting time trying to shut down porn and strip joints, bars anything that they percieve as sin. Thats the real problem, not his bigoted anti homosexual behaviour..cause read it as it is, he means ALL of the things that i just mentioned plus many more you can read about in the bible..jeez left wingers think the only thing the bible says is the gays are bad, right wingers think the bible is the true history of the world..lol i say phooey to em both lol.

Well, he was asked an honest question, and he gave an honest answer.

He works extensively in cooperation with the Salvation Army (which does directly handle most of those secondary issues, and has even been awarded by them)

And, as for trying to give legitimacy to all the Falwellian crap, there are several description they have of him, to name a few Graham has been called, by the Christian Coalition, and other suchgroups, "The False Prophet", "The Great Deciever", "The Modern Balaam", "The Betrayer", and "Antichrist". It's hard to believe you can have some idea that these people do what they do, because of what HE says... Most of them would as soon stone him, than actually give him any creedence... There are far more televangelists, and such that are for more deserving of taking stances against.

Well I guess I can say something most of the other posters on this thread can't.

I actually read the article Trolling Motors mentions.

All the long sermons on Sin being the source of the social ills mentioned are pointless and way off topic. Billy Graham was talking about "Original Sin", ya'know that fairy tale about the garden of eden and the inherited sins of mankind. How the hell does that correspond to a social issue?

Well I guess I can say something most of the other posters on this thread can't.

I actually read the article Trolling Motors mentions.

All the long sermons on Sin being the source of the social ills mentioned are pointless and way off topic. Billy Graham was talking about "Original Sin", ya'know that fairy tale about the garden of eden and the inherited sins of mankind. How the hell does that correspond to a social issue?Because, if you read that "Fairy Tale" it was that Sin that separated man from God. Before the "Original Sin," man and God were close... After the Original Sin, you had the first shedding of blood. the taking of life to hide from God's sight. The attempt to make Man, God's equal, if not superior. Everything else sprang from that one Sin.

Because, if you read that "Fairy Tale" it was that Sin that separated man from God. Before the "Original Sin," man and God were close... After the Original Sin, you had the first shedding of blood. the taking of life to hide from God's sight. The attempt to make Man, God's equal, if not superior. Everything else sprang from that one Sin.Yeah, I know the story. Eve's seduction of Adam into sampling the forbidden fruit (prompted by the 'serpent'), they get cast out of Eden, yada yada yada.

It's all bullshit. The old Testament is about equal to Grimms fairy tales.

Sure there's some valid moral lesson's in there, but there's also a lot of shit that will fuck up your mind if you take it too serious or literal. It is, after all, fiction.

Just for shitsngiggles howzabout you tell me how pondering man's supposed fall from grace with god equates to a social issue on par with Poverty, Famine or AIDS? It's been a slow night and I could use a laugh.

Does anyone else think the Religious Right will be utterly powerless 50 years from now?

They're driven by aging 70s televangelists, and have negligible support from anyone younger than 40.
I wish that were so