NationStates Jolt Archive

people who eat meat sit there and try to explain how there is no protein in a vegetarian diet/you need supplements/you need to eat meat.

i mean, i havent' been eating meat for 5 and a half years. no supplements (except a while back when i couldn't get to the grocery store for a while so was eating absolute shit and bought some multivitamins) and frankly, i think i've done a little more research on not eating meat than someone who insists that 2-3 servings of meat isn't enough (btw, it's more than enough).

i also love it when people who haven't taken highschool physics try to tell me i'm wrong in my description of the big bang. (i'm third year physics. considering going into astro)

So give us your big bang

No I don't love it

So give us your big bang

That sounds hot.

Out of curiousity, Dakini, why don't you eat meat?

That sounds hot.


But then you're a dirty old man

(BTW It takes one to know)

B6 is for protien absorbtion isnt it? Vitamin B6 is in bananas, chicken, milk, fish, whole grains, and fortified cold breakfast cereals are also a good source of both folate and vitamin B6.

Out of curiousity, Dakini, why don't you eat meat?
i don't really think it's my place to kill other animals for sustenance (i know someone else is doing the actual killing, but i'd be contributing) i figure if i can live without killing other animals, then i might as well.

plus there are a number of health and environmental benefits (though the environmental ones kick in more if more people abstain or cut down meat consumption... one person doesn't do a lot for it)


also to add another thing: i also love it when 12 year olds tell me that smoking pot once causes irrevocable brain damage and that i'm officially mentally retarded because their guidance councellor told them so.

i don't really think it's my place to kill other animals for sustenance (i know someone else is doing the actual killing, but i'd be contributing) i figure if i can live without killing other animals, then i might as well.

plus there are a number of health and environmental benefits (though the environmental ones kick in more if more people abstain or cut down meat consumption... one person doesn't do a lot for it)


also to add another thing: i also love it when 12 year olds tell me that smoking pot once causes irrevocable brain damage and that i'm officially mentally retarded because their guidance councellor told them so.

I have a girl friend who insists that I'm a heartless bastard for eating meat, and that she would never harm another living creature, yet she wears an authentic leather jacket. Go figure.

Also to add another thing: I'm smoking pot right now.:)

It doesn't bother me that other people eat meat. I haven't eaten meat since I was 7 though so....

My favourite thing people say is "How do you live?", they always say this wide eyed, and they sound sooooo surprised! It makes me laugh :)


Yay! My 200th post!

I have a girl friend who insists that I'm a heartless bastard for eating meat, and that she would never harm another living creature, yet she wears an authentic leather jacket. Go figure.

i personally don't care what other people do. i know when i get married, if my hypothetical husband wants meat though, he has to cook it himself...
but other than that, if no one goes on about how i should be eating meat, i don't point out how eating meat is bad.

i think i own some leather shoes though... leftovers from before i stopped eating meat though. doesn't mean i shouldn't get rid of perfectly good shoes.

Also to add another thing: I'm smoking pot right now.:)
lucky bastard.

i don't really think it's my place to kill other animals for sustenance (i know someone else is doing the actual killing, but i'd be contributing) i figure if i can live without killing other animals, then i might as well.
Well, animals are killed in the production of wheat, fruit, and vegetables as well. Field mice and the like: plus fields need to be cleared out, which means some animals lose their natural habitat... then there's the insecticides to consider.
In fact, I located a stat somewhere (damned if I can find it again, so take this with a grain of salt) that stated that more animals would be killed in producing a vegetarian diet, but even if your diet kills less than that of someone who eats meat, you still aren't doing all in your power to limit the death and suffering of animals... I mean, you could go the extra mile and grow your own food, but that would take far too much effort, wouldn't it.

Oh, and certainly you would not suggest that it's wrong to kill a cow, but permissable to kill a field-mouse. I mean, one's larger than the other, but that's a fairly arbitrary distinction, isn't it?

i personally don't care what other people do. i know when i get married, if my hypothetical husband wants meat though, he has to cook it himself...
but other than that, if no one goes on about how i should be eating meat, i don't point out how eating meat is bad.

i think i own some leather shoes though... leftovers from before i stopped eating meat though. doesn't mean i shouldn't get rid of perfectly good shoes.

Yeah, but you're not the kind that's preachy about the evils of eating meat. She is, which makes her hypocrisy all the more intolerable. And she bought the jacket after she stopped eating meat.

lucky bastard.

That thread about marijuana inspired me.:D

I think meat eaters should just shove it.

I think meat eaters should just shove it.

Where would you like me to shove it? And what am I shoving?

does intent mean nothing to you?

does intent mean nothing to you?

Are you talking to me?

Well, animals are killed in the production of wheat, fruit, and vegetables as well. Field mice and the like: plus fields need to be cleared out, which means some animals lose their natural habitat... then there's the insecticides to consider.
In fact, I located a stat somewhere (damned if I can find it again, so take this with a grain of salt) that stated that more animals would be killed in producing a vegetarian diet, but even if your diet kills less than that of someone who eats meat, you still aren't doing all in your power to limit the death and suffering of animals... I mean, you could go the extra mile and grow your own food, but that would take far too much effort, wouldn't it.

Oh, and certainly you would not suggest that it's wrong to kill a cow, but permissable to kill a field-mouse. I mean, one's larger than the other, but that's a fairly arbitrary distinction, isn't it?

oh, and also: i find it odd that more field mice would be killed for a vegetarian diet, when you consider that most of the crops raised in north america go to feed cattle and the like.... thus the omnivores are killing field mice in two ways: the meat they eat and the veggies as well (afterall, you can't eat just meat)

Are you talking to me?
no, marxlan...

this is why i usually quote things. but i got lazy.

no, marxlan...

this is why i usually quote things. but i got lazy.

Ah.... I just thought in my current state of mind I might have missed something.

does intent mean nothing to you?
Sure it does (I assume this is to me)! You KNOW that animals are killed in producing your diet, but you go ahead and eat anyway, don't you? That's intentional. There is no way to avoid death in producing food, and you seem to have accepted that if you continue to eat. You intend to continue eating, I take it, and therefore you intend to continue to indirectly cause the deaths of innocent animals. You are not ignorant of these deaths, but do you feel any guilt about them?

If you were ignorant, then there would be no intent, but you aren't so there is. Simple. Sure, no-one is conciously deciding to go out and kill those field mice and the like, but they intentionally do something that they know will cause deaths. Intent is still there.

Sure it does (I assume this is to me)! You KNOW that animals are killed in producing your diet, but you go ahead and eat anyway, don't you? That's intentional. There is no way to avoid death in producing food, and you seem to have accepted that if you continue to eat. You intend to continue eating, I take it, and therefore you intend to continue to indirectly cause the deaths of innocent animals. You are not ignorant of these deaths, but do you feel any guilt about them?

If you were ignorant, then there would be no intent, but you aren't so there is. Simple. Sure, no-one is conciously deciding to go out and kill those field mice and the like, but they intentionally do something that they know will cause deaths. Intent is still there.
read my second post in response to your initial post on teh subject.

i'm still limiting death.

I think eating meat is just as natural as eating plants. You know, food chain, and all that...

oh, and also: i find it odd that more field mice would be killed for a vegetarian diet, when you consider that most of the crops raised in north america go to feed cattle and the like.... thus the omnivores are killing field mice in two ways: the meat they eat and the veggies as well (afterall, you can't eat just meat)
It does seem odd. I could try to track down that stat, but I don't think I want to do all that just so I can prove a point.
Anyway, I don't see any real moral superiority to a vegetarian diet, because even assuming it does cause fewer deaths it means very little to me. Is Pol Pot, for example, morally superior to Mao because he killed fewer? I don't think so. It is, as you suggested, about intent.

i never suggested i was morally superior.

i do what i do and you do what you do. don't tell me to stop doing what i'm doing and i'll give you the same courtesy.

though if you wanted to limit your intake of meat, your colon and the envirnoment will be better off for it.

It does seem odd. I could try to track down that stat, but I don't think I want to do all that just so I can prove a point.
Anyway, I don't see any real moral superiority to a vegetarian diet, because even assuming it does cause fewer deaths it means very little to me. Is Pol Pot, for example, morally superior to Mao because he killed fewer? I don't think so. It is, as you suggested, about intent.

She's not being morally superior. She made her own choice not to eat meat because she didn't want animals to die simply to feed her. Whether or not her diet actually accomplishes that goal is beside the point. It's her choice and she has every right to it. If she were lording her vegetarianism over everyone else, then one could call her a hypocrite or whatever else (like my stupid friend Becky), but she doesn't.

i never suggested i was morally superior.

i do what i do and you do what you do. don't tell me to stop doing what i'm doing and i'll give you the same courtesy.

though if you wanted to limit your intake of meat, your colon and the envirnoment will be better off for it.
Hey, I'm not telling you to stop. I'm just saying that your rationale may be a bit off, and you did indeed make a judgement when you made the comment that you believe it is immoral to kill animals for sustenance. Okay, here's a pertinent article... not the same thing I'd found before, but still relevant.
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

i mean, i havent' been eating meat for 5 and a half years.
Plant Hater! What did the plants do to you! Now you're whole diet consists of innocent defenseless organisms like you and ,to a certain extent, me!? How could you?

Sorry, I had to do it. I don't have the willpower to be a vegitarian. Kudos to you.

Hey, I'm not telling you to stop. I'm just saying that your rationale may be a bit off, and you did indeed make a judgement when you made the comment that you believe it is immoral to kill animals for sustenance. Okay, here's a pertinent article... not the same thing I'd found before, but still relevant.
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
i never said that i believed it immoral to kill animals for sustenance. i said it wasn't my place to make other animals die for my sustenance.

furthermore, i kinda have to ask why scientists are looking at the morality of not eating meat. since when is that something scientists do? (look for answers about morality?)

and again, when you consider that more crops are produced for consumption by non-human animals than for humans... something that is not taken into account in the article.

i never suggested i was morally superior.

i do what i do and you do what you do. don't tell me to stop doing what i'm doing and i'll give you the same courtesy.

though if you wanted to limit your intake of meat, your colon and the envirnoment will be better off for it.


So you won't tell anyone what to do...you'll just suggest? Doesn't that still intimate that your position is the "right" one?

I'd have to say that I think you're crazy for denying yourself the tastiness of meat. It's so damn tasty...

Dakini, I recently heard a rumor going through the scientific community that there were two big bangs. The first created the "empty" space, and the second created the matter(e.g. hydrogens). You think this is possible?

Edit: and meat's tasty

So you won't tell anyone what to do...you'll just suggest? Doesn't that still intimate that your position is the "right" one?
well, i'm saying that doctors suggest this too. large amounts of meat consumption have been linked to colon cancer (among other cancers) kidney failure and a host of other problems.

and we would be able to feed more people on less land if less meat was eaten.

thus, it is better for your colon and the environment if you limit your intake of meat.

Dakini, I recently heard a rumor going through the scientific community that there were two big bangs. The first created the "empty" space, and the second created the matter(e.g. hydrogens). You think this is possible?
i haven't heard that... it woudl be rather interesting though. i think that's something i have to look into when exams are over.

I'd have to say that I think you're crazy for denying yourself the tastiness of meat. It's so damn tasty...
*shrugs* so are veggies. and i eat a greater variety of those now that i don't eat meat.

well, i'm saying that doctors suggest this too. large amounts of meat consumption have been linked to colon cancer (among other cancers) kidney failure and a host of other problems.


Then people should eat meat in moderation. Just like everything else in the world.

well, i'm saying that doctors suggest this too. large amounts of meat consumption have been linked to colon cancer (among other cancers) kidney failure and a host of other problems.

and we would be able to feed more people on less land if less meat was eaten.

thus, it is better for your colon and the environment if you limit your intake of meat.

Well, of course large amounts of meat is bad. Large amounts of anything could be linked to anything. It's a question of moderation, which I employ in my diet (which includes meat...yummy).

If less meat was eaten, more non-meat products would be consumed...seems to me it would virtually balance out.

*shrugs* so are veggies. and i eat a greater variety of those now that i don't eat meat.
I can eat a great variety of veggies AND eat meat, it's not mutually exclusive. But I love green beans (I'm from Ohio, it's practically a law) and therefore those are my number one.

You know the old saying...If God hadn't meant us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat.....sorry, needlessly inflammatory.
I admire my vegetarian friends for their principles, but I think that good health for humans means a variety of different types of food including meats. What we should be railing about is the modern way that "meat" is raised, butchered, marketed, etc. Take for example chicken that you by in your local supermarket. It's confined in tiny pens, fed parts of other chickens, stuffed with hormones, and butched in unsanitary conditions. If that was my only choice I'd be vegetarian too.
Sorry to go on but just smoked a big J of BC Hydro.....hungry.

Well, of course large amounts of meat is bad. Large amounts of anything could be linked to anything. It's a question of moderation, which I employ in my diet (which includes meat...yummy).

If less meat was eaten, more non-meat products would be consumed...seems to me it would virtually balance out.
well, by large amounts i mean 3-4 servings a day or more.

you need like 1 serving of meat a day.

and yes, if less meat was consumed, more non-meat products would be consumed... by humans. there would still be less land needed for raising crops to feed livestock as well as less land requied for raising the livestock itself. as i said, more crops go to feeding livestock than to feeding people.

I think meat eaters should just shove it.

*sigh* why i even bothered responding I'll never know. probably sheer boredom.

Whether you eat meat or not, I don't really care. any particular reason you need to force yourself and your ideas on everyone else?
"I'm a vegetarian! Accept me! You are wrong! Shove it!"
Sometimes I wonder what people like you want.
"Ok, you're right, i'm wrong, i'll never look at a luscious juicy steak again?"

Why can't we all just get along? :headbang:

As we argue over vegetarianism in our little internet chatroom, half a world away U.S. soldiers are dying in Iraq.

As we debate over whether or not to eat meat, in Africa hundreds of thousands of people are going hungry.

next time, find something more important to complain about.

excuse me while i go scoff in disgust at humanity.

You know the old saying...If God hadn't meant us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat.....sorry, needlessly inflammatory.
I admire my vegetarian friends for their principles, but I think that good health for humans means a variety of different types of food including meats. What we should be railing about is the modern way that "meat" is raised, butchered, marketed, etc. Take for example chicken that you by in your local supermarket. It's confined in tiny pens, fed parts of other chickens, stuffed with hormones, and butched in unsanitary conditions. If that was my only choice I'd be vegetarian too.
Sorry to go on but just smoked a big J of BC Hydro.....hungry.
and how cows are slaughtered?

it would be one thing if these places actually followed the regulations, but there have been inspections where they've found cows still alive and conscious bleeding to death on hooks.

not to mention the hormone injections. not to mention how the cow is freaked out for the last bit of its life so all the hormones for fear and anger are circulating through the flesh you end up consuming. it would be much better if they were killed humanely.

and again, when you consider that more crops are produced for consumption by non-human animals than for humans... something that is not taken into account in the article.
The crops fed to these animals are not fit for human consumption, but your point is taken. However, the article DOES deal with that point, you just overlooked it. He suggests using a ruminant-pasture model... this means the animals are not grain fed, and he factors that into his calculations. Give 'er another read.

well, by large amounts i mean 3-4 servings a day or more.

you need like 1 serving of meat a day.

and yes, if less meat was consumed, more non-meat products would be consumed... by humans. there would still be less land needed for raising crops to feed livestock as well as less land requied for raising the livestock itself. as i said, more crops go to feeding livestock than to feeding people.

We're probably better off agreeing to disagree. There are so many points and counterpoints that we could go at this for days. You don't like meat. I like meat. It will likely stay that way.

I'm off. There's a juicy steak on the table with my name on it. (no joke...the irony is delicious).

Toodles!

But yeah, as humans we need to recognize we are omnivores, or eaters by opportunity. We are designed with both carnivore and herbivore features. Canine teeth and molars are evidence of this.

We are supposed to eat foods from all areas of the spectrum. And have exercise.

and how cows are slaughtered?

it would be one thing if these places actually followed the regulations, but there have been inspections where they've found cows still alive and conscious bleeding to death on hooks.

not to mention the hormone injections. not to mention how the cow is freaked out for the last bit of its life so all the hormones for fear and anger are circulating through the flesh you end up consuming. it would be much better if they were killed humanely.

You're quite right, it's probably worse with Cows. I buy organic beef that is fed properly, dispatched in a humane way and butchered in a clean, safe environment.

Well, since no one else has done it, and this thread simply screams for it:

http://maddox.xmission.com/sponsor.html

Heh... But seriously, I'm an omnivore... I actually prefer meat to veggies... In fact, I have stated on numerous occasions that if it were physically possible for a human to survive (in relatively decent health) on an all meat diet, I would be the first in line...

However, I don't really care what other people do or don't do with their bodies... It's not up to me to dictate what others eat... I don't understand it in the least, but I can't claim that it is "wrong" for them to take that course...

It isn't exactly natural (humans are biologically designed to be onmivorous, as a few have pointed out), but it's not causing any harm...

So I say, who cares? More meat for the rest of us!

i personally don't care what other people do. i know when i get married, if my hypothetical husband wants meat though, he has to cook it himself...
but other than that, if no one goes on about how i should be eating meat, i don't point out how eating meat is bad.

I think I love you...

Well I read through the last four pages of posts, but I still don't see anything about your take on the Big Bang. You should write it up, there's nothing I love more than reading astrophysics, even though I'm just an interested layman. And that's not to imply that I fancy myself an amateur physicist, I don't always advance a lot of crackpot nonsense - I just like to try to keep abreast of what's known.

Besides, it's fun to do when I'm smoking weed. Whaddaya say Dakini?

You know the old saying...If God hadn't meant us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat.....sorry, needlessly inflammatory.
I admire my vegetarian friends for their principles, but I think that good health for humans means a variety of different types of food including meats. What we should be railing about is the modern way that "meat" is raised, butchered, marketed, etc. Take for example chicken that you by in your local supermarket. It's confined in tiny pens, fed parts of other chickens, stuffed with hormones, and butched in unsanitary conditions. If that was my only choice I'd be vegetarian too.
Sorry to go on but just smoked a big J of BC Hydro.....hungry.


My family use to raise chickens along with a few geese and turkeys; though it was nothing near mass production. We just feed them gains and let them wonder around. Collecting eggs were a bitch but other then that our chickens didn't have much to complain about, even the males that were butcher, but it is horrendous how they treat some animals. That treatment should stop and maybe yeah we'd have to eat a little less meat but you're not going to get the majority of people to stop eating meat. I get steak at least one night a week and I eat some form of meat almost everyday and while I love fruit and some weeks it's all I eat with my junk food I wouldn't cut meat out all together.

If you're doing it because of the treatment of the animals a good alternative is deer, fish (gross), and foul that can be hunted rather then grown or find a local farm to visit. It's obviously harder to find animals that aren't mistreated but it's not impossible if you still enjoy the taste but not the process.

Either way it’s really a personal decision and not up to others to decide for us. It is natural to eat both meat and veggies and as long as you at least eat one responsibly you’ll have what you need to survive.

I'd have to say that I think you're crazy for denying yourself the tastiness of meat. It's so damn tasty...

Actually if you're veggie for years meat often ceases to be appealing. I was happily veggie for about 12 years. I started off not eating much red meat, then found that I was starting to find white meat unappealing, and I never liked fish. It all became unpleasant smelly stuff I could only eat if the taste was masked in a load of spice, going veggie wasn't ever really a conscious choice.
Now, after an illness I'm eating a lot of raw fish and can happily eat chicken and pork and enjoy them, but a lot of the things I used to eat either taste horribly bitter or make me feel awful. Weird thing, the human body.

Well I read through the last four pages of posts, but I still don't see anything about your take on the Big Bang. You should write it up, there's nothing I love more than reading astrophysics, even though I'm just an interested layman. And that's not to imply that I fancy myself an amateur physicist, I don't always advance a lot of crackpot nonsense - I just like to try to keep abreast of what's known.

Besides, it's fun to do when I'm smoking weed. Whaddaya say Dakini?
oh, well apparantly the general misconception is that the big bang is an explosion that has a central point (i've even heard some people say it should have a spherical shell appearance) whereas in reality the big bang happened everywhere...

some people like to ignore my balloon analogy for expansion too.

and again, when you consider that more crops are produced for consumption by non-human animals than for humans... something that is not taken into account in the article. Davis proposes a ruminant-pasture model of food production, which would replace all poultry, pig and lamb production with beef and dairy products. According to his calculations, such a model would result in the deaths of 300 million fewer animals annually (counting both field animals and cattle) than would a total vegan model. This difference, according to Davis, is mainly the result of fewer field animals killed in pasture and forage production than in the growing and harvest of grain, beans, and corn.That seems to cover it...

furthermore, i kinda have to ask why scientists are looking at the morality of not eating meat. since when is that something scientists do? (look for answers about morality?)Through the OSU Agriculture Experiment Station and a regional project on animal bioethics, Davis is part of a team of biological and social scientists from throughout the West who are working to integrate ethics and moral reasoning into the work and study of agriculture. It's a comparative study about how many animals are killed in agriculture. As an aspiring scientist, shouldn't you be applauding this study that explores the reality of a situation instead of accepting the (mis)information that "everybody knows"?

well, i'm saying that doctors suggest this too. large amounts of meat consumption have been linked to colon cancer (among other cancers) kidney failure and a host of other problems. Everything has been linked to cancers. The sun is linked to skin cancer. Stress is linked to cancer. If you go around looking for causes of cancer and fretting about them constantly, you are probably more likely to contract it. My 13 year old niece is dying of cancer right now and noone has been able to come up with a reason for it. Doctors suggest moderation in your diet not necessarily veganism.

What we should be railing about is the modern way that "meat" is raised, butchered, marketed, etc. Take for example chicken that you by in your local supermarket. It's confined in tiny pens, fed parts of other chickens, stuffed with hormones, and butched in unsanitary conditions. I agree with you there. I believe that if you want to eat meat, then you should be willing to kill and butcher it at least once to get a real grasp of the process. These anonymous little packages in the supermarket allow people to feel that there is no harm done, no real animal involved. My sister is a classic example of this - she wants the marketing name of lamb changed so she doesn't have to think about the little baby sheep that are no longer running around thanks to her.:rolleyes:

I think meat eaters should just shove it.Childish, childish, childish. And typical, unfortunately. How many people did you win over with that post? Good argument there. :rolleyes:


you need like 1 serving of meat a day.Are you now arguing that you should eat meat? I'm confused.... :confused:

What bothers me is people who claim to be vegetarian and then go on to tell me that they eat chicken and fish. Not that I'm saying this applies to anyone in this thread, it's just a pet peeve of mine. Meat is meat. If it comes from any animal then it is meat and you are not a vegetarian...

And in closing, I would like to quote the inestimable Mr Spock: We all feed on death - even vegetarians. :D