NationStates Jolt Archive

You know, Israel is the start of Many problems, lets do an old fashioned number down thing! (Not meant for flaming, I have nothing against Israelis, just the whole political thing with Israel.)

1.Bobby Kennedy got shot by an Arab who was angry cause he wanted to support Israel, Bobby Kennedys runner up was Humphrey, we all know what happened next (but if you dont) Bobby Kennedy would have defeted Nixon before he could even have won his FIRST term, but he died. :(
2. Hundreds of Israelis die per year because of the country being attacked.

1. Israelis moved into Palestine (then called Philistine), killing almost everyone because a big invisible voice told them to.
2. Israel as a state was created by Great Britian in the 1940s
3. Israel refuses to admit it took the land.
4. Israel has ignored over 70 UN resolutions


Lets understand that the Israelis are not blameless here.

You know, I'm from the land of the Kennedys, and I don't think I've ever heard anyone angry with Israel over Bobby's death.

So we are purposefully attacking Israel here?

Ok, I can only attack them if I say something bad about the Palestinians too (remember both sides are not blameless)

I dont understand how israelis expect to continue to peacefully coexist with all the larger islamic fundmentalist countries around them(and all of them hate israel) and the way the American economy is going right now it wont be able to fund israel forever. And when that finally happens theres going to be a HUGE war in the middle east...

"Ok, I can only attack them if I say something bad about the Palestinians too (remember both sides are not blameless)"

Of course you can say bad things about the Palestinians, them being humans and all, but at least they are the nation who have been oppressed and colonised, and not the oppressive colonisers, like Israel.

You know what.. if you people are not gonna post anything useful, dont post anything at all.


Israel's only fault is it's existence.. The jew's needed a homeland,we gave them one. No matter where we put them, we would've displaced someone.

Why not displace someone who has tons of places to live in, has their own culture, language and religion and has a deep hatred for anything jewish as well.

The only pro thing the jew's got was the fact we got our ancestral home.

So don't go oh boo hoo those poor Palestinians... they can still get the heck out, go live somewhere else, and we'd still let them visit their "holy" sites.

I dont understand how israelis expect to continue to peacefully coexist with all the larger islamic fundmentalist countries around them(and all of them hate israel) and the way the American economy is going right now it wont be able to fund israel forever. And when that finally happens theres going to be a HUGE war in the middle east...

You forget that the main reason these middle eastern nations hate Israel is because Israel attacked all of its neighbors many times since it came about, trying to take land, or for even weirder reasons (Can we say "big nameless voice told them to"?). And on the few times Israel's neighbors actually made counter-attacks, Israel went complaining to the US.

1. Israelis moved into Palestine (then called Philistine), killing almost everyone because a big invisible voice told them to.
2. Israel as a state was created by Great Britian in the 1940s
3. Israel refuses to admit it took the land.
4. Israel has ignored over 70 UN resolutions
1. Prove that Palestine was once Philistine. Prove they killed the people there. Only one guy went there and he married a woman who he converted. He probably gained a few other converts, and eventually Judaism grew bigger.
2. Palestine was created by Britain. Britain did not even want Jews going there. Israel was founded in 1948 thanks to international pressure.
3. They take land they historically owned. Only Americans take land they don't own.
4. Prove that.

So don't go oh boo hoo those poor Palestinians... they can still get the heck out, go live somewhere else, and we'd still let them visit their "holy" sites.

Way to condone what you just blasted. You complained that the Israelis were being displaced but right there you say that the Palestinans can get out and move somewhere else.

A little naive I feel.

Oh, one more thing. Read the bible again. The Israelis did not have an ancestral land. They slaughtered Philistines to get it at the command of a big invisible voice one guy heard.

Oh, one more thing. Read the bible again. The Israelis did not have an ancestral land. They slaughtered Philistines to get it at the command of a big invisible voice one guy heard.

Your point being? :confused: That was several THOUSAND years ago at a time when everyone was killing their neighbor because of what some "big invisible voice one guy heard"

Way to condone what you just blasted. You complained that the Israelis were being displaced but right there you say that the Palestinans can get out and move somewhere else.

Oh so your saying that the Jew's can have their land somewhere else? Your saying they have a million other places to create a country? Or assimilate into an existing one? Stop being stupid already...

Oh, one more thing. Read the bible again. The Israelis did not have an ancestral land. They slaughtered Philistines to get it at the command of a big invisible voice one guy heard.

G-d promised all of Israel.. something along the line's from the Nile to Euphrates.

And just because your an Atheist that can't believe in something as simple as Omnipotent being, doesnt mean the rest of us have to.

You forget that the main reason these middle eastern nations hate Israel is because Israel attacked all of its neighbors many times since it came about, trying to take land, or for even weirder reasons (Can we say "big nameless voice told them to"?). And on the few times Israel's neighbors actually made counter-attacks, Israel went complaining to the US

Israel did not start any wars. Arab nations continually attacked them over and over. why would Jews starta war during the High Holiday Yom Kippur?

Hmm powerful voice eh? The same type of voice that provoked Christians to go on several crusades, at least four.

Jews and Muslims are brothers. Christians are their step-brother. When they realize that, the world will become so much more peaceful.

"And on the few times Israel's neighbors actually made counter-attacks, Israel went complaining to the US."

1.You have it backwards and then some. Israel was almost always attacked (maybe even always).
e.g.- War of Independence: Surrounding countries declare war and try to obliterate Israel right after it became a country.
Six Day War - Surrounding countries amass troops all along Israel's weakest borders. Arab media calls for war again against Israel
and others.
2. I'm sure the Soviet Union never helped the surrounding Arab countries and the Palestinians </sarcasm>

We are all from the same bloodline...

we only technically started one war, and that was the 6 day war. But Egypt was building its army too near our land, so we attacked before they did, so the pre-emptive strike was justified.

1. Prove that Palestine was once Philistine. Prove they killed the people there. Only one guy went there and he married a woman who he converted. He probably gained a few other converts, and eventually Judaism grew bigger.
Go read the bible if you're a Christian its right there. Unfortuantly, its also the only account.

2. Palestine was created by Britain. Britain did not even want Jews going there. Israel was founded in 1948 thanks to international pressure.
Can't seem to find my AP Euro notebook but its there. Go back into English history and look for the Blue or Black papers. Around 1948

3. They take land they historically owned. Only Americans take land they don't own.
With the Americans, true. For the rest, see part one.

4. Prove that.
Too busy with school work right now, look it up yourself.

Israel did not start any wars. Arab nations continually attacked them over and over. why would Jews starta war during the High Holiday Yom Kippur?

Hmm powerful voice eh? The same type of voice that provoked Christians to go on several crusades, at least four.

Jews and Muslims are brothers. Christians are their step-brother. When they realize that, the world will become so much more peaceful.


And just when will the Israeli state stop slaughtering ismalmic Palestinians?
Lest not lose focus, whilst i have nothing against Jews as a religion, the Israeli nation or to be mreo correct government, is a pack of Imperialistic swine colonising another nation, who internationaly is given the right to exist.
Whilst i only believe in secular states, I truly believe that right now the problem is not that Israel is Jewish, but that it feels it has the right to colonise Palestine simply because it knows it has the economic and military force to do so.

Just ignore Blarg.. he's an idiot that knows nothing about Israel and it's history.

And he keeps picking on this "invisible being that says kill"... i'm sorry but not everyone hears psychotic voices in their head like u do.

Oh so your saying that the Jew's can have their land somewhere else? Your saying they have a million other places to create a country? Or assimilate into an existing one? Stop being stupid already...
I dunno, just about every other mass exodus of people has been able to do that. Why do the Jews need to be special in your opinion? Why couldn't they assimilate into a nation. They did it well in the U.S. I don't see a state that has a sign saying "Jews only". They did it just fine in Europe before WWII, they did it just fine afterwards.



G-d promised all of Israel.. something along the line's from the Nile to Euphrates.

And just because your an Atheist that can't believe in something as simple as Omnipotent being, doesnt mean the rest of us have to.
A yes, the big invisible voice. Just because you believe in an omnipotent being doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

Just ignore Blarg.. he's an idiot that knows nothing about Israel and it's history.

And he keeps picking on this "invisible being that says kill"... i'm sorry but not everyone hears psychotic voices in their head like u do.

Oh really. Have you yet managed to refute anything I've said or are you just going to insist on claiming that god promised everything? If you think I'm that stupid, start disproving my points. Then call me stupid.

Do you read the old testament. the big voice that says kill happens a lot. And no, I don't hear voices.

And just when will the Israeli state stop slaughtering ismalmic Palestinians?
Lest not lose focus, whilst i have nothing against Jews as a religion, the Israeli nation or to be mreo correct government, is a pack of Imperialistic swine colonising another nation, who internationaly is given the right to exist.
Whilst i only believe in secular states, I truly believe that right now the problem is not that Israel is Jewish, but that it feels it has the right to colonise Palestine simply because it knows it has the economic and military force to do so.
While you do have to admit that the Palestinians aren't helping maters by having suicide bomers blow up civilians. Personaly I think that both sides are equaly to blame in the whole mess and that nothing is going to happpen to solve the mess ontil both sides are willing to stop killing each other.

Hey, don't go blaming the Big Invisible Voice. It's not His fault. He kicked the Jooos out of Palestine, 1st century AD. It's called the Diaspora, and when it's over, He'll let us know. By sending the Messiah. In the meantime, they have no right to that land. So nyah! :p

Go read the bible if you're a Christian its right there. Unfortuantly, its also the only account.
I only know the OT, the NT is full of crap.

Can't seem to find my AP Euro notebook but its there. Go back into English history and look for the Blue or Black papers. Around 1948
I can give you plenty of records of Brits supporting Palestine and banning Jews. Take the Exodus story for instance when British soldiers boarded a ship to prevent Jews from docking in Palestine.

Apparently, you can't give any proof at all. Go do your homework, pal.


And just when will the Israeli state stop slaughtering ismalmic Palestinians?
When they stop blowing Israelis up.

Lest not lose focus, whilst i have nothing against Jews as a religion, the Israeli nation or to be mreo correct government, is a pack of Imperialistic swine colonising another nation, who internationaly is given the right to exist.
Whilst i only believe in secular states, I truly believe that right now the problem is not that Israel is Jewish, but that it feels it has the right to colonise Palestine simply because it knows it has the economic and military force to do so.
Saladin, a Muslim general during the crusades, allowed anyone into Jerusalem after the crusade was over. The Muslims would own it, but anyone could freely come in to Jerusalem. The Palestinians were given several chances to share the land. They have even allowed them to have Gaza and the West Bank. But no, the Palestinians want it all.

They can either get the hell out of Israel, peacefully co-exist with an Israeli state, or take what they have been offered several times(West Bank and Gaza). If they do not pick one, they have no reason to be on this planet anymore.

Do you read the old testament. the big voice that says kill happens a lot. And no, I don't hear voices.
Really why do you keep going on about things that happened well over two millenia ago? I'm mean seriously you act like the fact that their killing people in the name of god was an unussual act at the time.

You know what.. if you people are not gonna post anything useful, dont post anything at all.


Israel's only fault is it's existence.. The jew's needed a homeland,we gave them one. No matter where we put them, we would've displaced someone.

Why not displace someone who has tons of places to live in, has their own culture, language and religion and has a deep hatred for anything jewish as well.

The only pro thing the jew's got was the fact we got our ancestral home.

So don't go oh boo hoo those poor Palestinians... they can still get the heck out, go live somewhere else, and we'd still let them visit their "holy" sites.
Plus, I read from an unbiased source that (I'm pretty sure) Israel actually brought the land from the Palestinians at a rather fair price.

Can anybody confirm this?


Ok, I admit I have been critical of Sharon in the past, and he's not my cup of tea as a leader (but then again some of the neighboring Arab countries are TONS worse) - but hey, it appears that there is some progress being made under him, so might as well take what ya have.

I only know the OT, the NT is full of crap.
It is the Old Testament. After the exodus from Egypt, the wandering in the desert and the discovery of the Promised land.

I can give you plenty of records of Brits supporting Palestine and banning Jews. Take the Exodus story for instance when British soldiers boarded a ship to prevent Jews from docking in Palestine.

After WWII, the zionist movement in GB began to grow momentum. The Jews saw an oppertunity to take back what they thought was theirs. The first set of papers issued by the British government (White Papers I belive) allowed the Zionists to move back to the newly established state of Israel. After a few years though, the zionists got a little zealous and began to flood into the area, pushing out Palestinians and creating regional tension. In response, the British government issued a new set of papers (Blue or Black, I can't remeber) which limited the zionist movement into Israel. The Zionists ignored the orders and tried to smuggle themselves in. The British attempted to intervene but to little affect, they eventually gave up.

EDIT: Note - I did not say the Palestinans were blameless, I think that suicide bombings are horrednous and sick. But, Israel is not the saint many people make it out to be.

Instead of trying to put the blame on eachother, I think both Jews and Palestines should come to their senses and start working together towards finding solutions. Untill then in my opinion they're all equally to blame and a bunch of [insert all swearwords in your vocabulary here]. :headbang:

'nuff said.

Instead of trying to put the blame on eachother, I think both Jews and Palestines should come to their senses and start working together towards finding solutions. Untill then in my opinion they're all equally to blame and a bunch of [insert all swearwords in your vocabulary here]. :headbang:

'nuff said.
amen

Hummm...newbie here but this is just so fascinating I had to throw in a few bits

I dunno, just about every other mass exodus of people has been able to do that. Why do the Jews need to be special in your opinion? Why couldn't they assimilate into a nation..

Oh? Really? Where did the Palestiens go then to assimulate into another nation then?...Could it be because the surrounding Arab Nations find it politically expedient to have the Palestinians be a source of contention and unrest for the whole Arab world. Using them to distract from the Political and economic chaos in thier own countries? After all, its not like the surrounding countries couldnt absorb the influx of Palestiniens easily into their own populations. Also the Israilis ARE assimulated in many countries, only a portion of the worlds Jewish population has moved to Israel. Most are scattered through out the world....and oh yes.... Oddly enough more than a million Palesteinians LIVE and Vote in Isreal.....do any Jews have a vote in Arab countries?...oh right...they are not alowed to live there are they...tell me...if Jews are found in say Saudi or Iran are they exported or jailed or killed?.....just a matter of curiosity


They did it well in the U.S. I don't see a state that has a sign saying "Jews only". .

Not in the US certainly, but I believe all states have at least a small Jewish population and I believe that New York State contains more Jews than Israel....but I could be mistaken....
and oh yeah,,,,you are totally right....Not even Israel has forced out all non Jewish populations...Can the same be said for Syria?, Saudi Arabia? Iran? ...can you name a middle east Arab ruled state that Jews are welcomed?

They did it just fine in Europe before WWII, they did it just fine afterwards. .

Did just fine Before WWII, but they didnt fare very well During WWII did they...wonder if that had any impact on their desire to have a place of their own to protect themselves....or any impact on the world governments in pressuring the British Government into handing over that land they owned from the end of WW1 which oddly enough corresponded with the Old Testiment description of the Jewish homeland from around 4000 years ago....

So the Arab lands being held by the British, amounted to around 1% of the total land area in the region and was given to the Jewish people...and within what? 2 years? the Arab countries declared war on Israel....which they lost...and a few years later did it again...and they lost again....and the 6 day war, which to my recollection was a pre-emptive strike by Israel, destroyed the majority of the Egyptian, Syrian, Lebonon armies.....Odd Israel didnt follow up on their stratigic and tactical advantage to inflict further damage...and after that the terror tactics begain under Arafat ( who won a Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 and called for the Intafada uprising in 2000 )...which continues to this day. Killing civilians indiscrimanitly and glorifies the use of suicide bombers as a method of killing innocents.


A yes, the big invisible voice. Just because you believe in an omnipotent being doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

Odd....you keep mentioning this as a source of fact but the same book your referencing states quite clearly that the Jews owned Jeruselum for hundereds of years after capturing it and the surrounding ....so is the reference book a valid source of information or a fiction? Either way your argument takes a hit on its credibility....

Respectfully

Ron

3. They take land they historically owned. Only Americans take land they don't own.

*coughs*
Germany-Austria-Russia dividing Poland up in the 1790's
*coughs again*
The Ottoman Empire
*coughs again*
The PRC taking over Tibet
*coughs again*
Roman Empire
*coughs again*
British Empire
*coughs again*
Moors in Spain
*coughs again*
Nazi Germany
*coughs again*
Mongol Empire
*coughs again*
Hunnic Empire
*coughs again*
Aztec Empire taking over their neighbors
*coughs again*
Fascist Italy taking over Ethiopia

I think the point of what I'm saying is that to say the US is the only country that has taken over other people's land is extremely unfair and biased. At least recognize this small portion of the imperialists list before you say "only American's take over other people's land." No one is clean on this count.

^ You've been coughing a lot. Are you feeling okay?

^ You've been coughing a lot. Are you feeling okay?
No, living in this petri dish of a dorm has given me a nasty cold. Dayquil only helps so much.

And here I thought this was a thread criticizing Israel?
Of course, as may have been stated, not all Jews are Israelies.

And a few quick responses..

can you name a middle east Arab ruled state that Jews are welcomed?
Last time I checked, according to both an Israelie guy and a Jordanian girl I know, Jordan, who neighbors Israel, welecomes Jews. That doesn't mean everyone in Jordan welecomes them, but since the new King took power, the state welecomes them.


Did just fine Before WWII, but they didnt fare very well During WWII did they...wonder if that had any impact on their desire to have a place of their own to protect themselves....or any impact on the world governments in pressuring the British Government into handing over that land they owned from the end of WW1 which oddly enough corresponded with the Old Testiment description of the Jewish homeland from around 4000 years ago....
Again, last time I checked it was 3000 years ago. Not to mention that Britian owned the land because the Ottoman Empire colapsed. And further down It's mentioned how the Israelies were not the origonators of said land, and thus can not technicly call it their homeland.

Odd Israel didnt follow up on their stratigic and tactical advantage to inflict further damage.
I'll let you in on a "secret". The reason Israel didn't do that isn't because they were being nice or fair, it's because the US told them not to. If they had the USSR was going to get involved on the side of the Arab nations involved, and that could have, and probably would have, escalated into nuclear war.

Odd....you keep mentioning this as a source of fact but the same book your referencing states quite clearly that the Jews owned Jeruselum for hundereds of years after capturing it and the surrounding ....so is the reference book a valid source of information or a fiction? Either way your argument takes a hit on its credibility....
You use this word "capture", which implies that they didn't own it before hand? So, if they didn't own it before, then what says they have any right to it after it was captured from them by someone else?

And again, this is a criticize Israel thread, you want to hear me start criticizing the Palistinians, or anyone else, open up a thread about that, I have plenty to say.

Anyone else find it unnerving that Israel is a world Nuclear power?

Anyone else find it unnerving that Israel is a world Nuclear power?
*nods*

The only ones who should be allowed nukes are big-a$$ supah-powahs, to keep each other in check. Right now, that would be the US and China. Anyone else... no. Don't trust 'em.

Oh? Really? Where did the Palestiens go then to assimulate into another nation then?...Could it be because the surrounding Arab Nations find it politically expedient to have the Palestinians be a source of contention and unrest for the whole Arab world. Using them to distract from the Political and economic chaos in thier own countries? After all, its not like the surrounding countries couldnt absorb the influx of Palestiniens easily into their own populations. Also the Israilis ARE assimulated in many countries, only a portion of the worlds Jewish population has moved to Israel. Most are scattered through out the world....and oh yes.... Oddly enough more than a million Palesteinians LIVE and Vote in Isreal.....do any Jews have a vote in Arab countries?...oh right...they are not alowed to live there are they...tell me...if Jews are found in say Saudi or Iran are they exported or jailed or killed?.....just a matter of curiosity
First off, props for a really good first post. Jews can live and vote in Jordan, also in Egypt but that nation isn't really safe for anyone. The countries you mentioned are the hard-liner states which no one really likes. And yes, I'm sure that it is politically expediant to have a never ending Arab/Israeli crises for the Arab nations, and yes, I'm sure they take advantage of that fact. No one absorbs the Palestinans because no one else really likes them that much.




Not in the US certainly, but I believe all states have at least a small Jewish population and I believe that New York State contains more Jews than Israel....but I could be mistaken....
and oh yeah,,,,you are totally right....Not even Israel has forced out all non Jewish populations...Can the same be said for Syria?, Saudi Arabia? Iran? ...can you name a middle east Arab ruled state that Jews are welcomed?
Well, my first point was Israel is not blameless here but anyway. The Muslims have a problem with the Jews and the Jews have a problem with Muslims. I'm not sure why but thats the way it is. Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran are all fundamentalist states. If there was a parallel, it would be the deep south of the U.S. What we like to call the bible belt. Home to Jerry Falwell and company. They don't tolerate anyone different from themselves. As a whole state, there is no other comaprison though. But, India and Pakistan come close.



Did just fine Before WWII, but they didnt fare very well During WWII did they...wonder if that had any impact on their desire to have a place of their own to protect themselves....or any impact on the world governments in pressuring the British Government into handing over that land they owned from the end of WW1 which oddly enough corresponded with the Old Testiment description of the Jewish homeland from around 4000 years ago.... The Zionists picked the land. But yes, that is what happened. It was in my little history lesson.

So the Arab lands being held by the British, amounted to around 1% of the total land area in the region and was given to the Jewish people...and within what? 2 years? the Arab countries declared war on Israel....which they lost...and a few years later did it again...and they lost again....and the 6 day war, which to my recollection was a pre-emptive strike by Israel, destroyed the majority of the Egyptian, Syrian, Lebonon armies.....Odd Israel didnt follow up on their stratigic and tactical advantage to inflict further damage...and after that the terror tactics begain under Arafat ( who won a Nobel Peace Prize in 1994 and called for the Intafada uprising in 2000 )...which continues to this day. Killing civilians indiscrimanitly and glorifies the use of suicide bombers as a method of killing innocents. First off, suicide bombers targeting civilians is sick. Let me make that clear for anyone who doesn't understand. I do not condone what Palestine is doing militarily. And yes, the Arabs got their asses kicked three times. This is due mostly because of two things. Israel has a huge amount of U.S. support and the Arabs don't have very good militaries.




Odd....you keep mentioning this as a source of fact but the same book your referencing states quite clearly that the Jews owned Jeruselum for hundereds of years after capturing it and the surrounding ....so is the reference book a valid source of information or a fiction? Either way your argument takes a hit on its credibility....

I take the bible as a collection of stories. Christians treat it as absolute truth. Jews treat the Torah as absolute truth. I came from the point of view of a Christian when I used it as a source. For me personally, I don't seem to have any record of Israelis owning Israel before the British gave it to them.

Respectfully

Ron

Back at you.
~Blarg

I only know the OT, the NT is full of crap.


I can give you plenty of records of Brits supporting Palestine and banning Jews. Take the Exodus story for instance when British soldiers boarded a ship to prevent Jews from docking in Palestine.

Apparently, you can't give any proof at all. Go do your homework, pal.



When they stop blowing Israelis up.


Saladin, a Muslim general during the crusades, allowed anyone into Jerusalem after the crusade was over. The Muslims would own it, but anyone could freely come in to Jerusalem. The Palestinians were given several chances to share the land. They have even allowed them to have Gaza and the West Bank. But no, the Palestinians want it all.

They can either get the hell out of Israel, peacefully co-exist with an Israeli state, or take what they have been offered several times(West Bank and Gaza). If they do not pick one, they have no reason to be on this planet anymore.

OK firstly they were not promised all of Gaza and the West Bank, yes most of it by a large count, but not ALL.
Your history lesson on Saladin was very interesting...oh wait no-boring. It's fantastic that you can name drop but why don't you wait until it is relevant before you do so?
Let's put it like this, within 50 years, there will be more Palestinians living in Israel than Israeli's, simply because of the birthrate. That is what Israel will get for being Imperialistic, and destroying the morality of the Jewish cause. So i hope you are around then, when the new majority Palestinians in Israel tell the Imperialists to get the hell out of THEIR country.
Don't you just love that kind of irony?

1. Prove that Palestine was once Philistine. Prove they killed the people there. Only one guy went there and he married a woman who he converted. He probably gained a few other converts, and eventually Judaism grew bigger.
2. Palestine was created by Britain. Britain did not even want Jews going there. Israel was founded in 1948 thanks to international pressure.
3. They take land they historically owned. Only Americans take land they don't own.
4. Prove that.


Religion does not confer ownership of land.

I dont care what your religion is, jewish fundementalists belong in the same mass grave as muslim and christian fundementalists.

Oh and just so i clear this up, i do not condone the Palestinian terroist organisations who blow up innocent men, women, and children. But i do believe that if it is too stop it is up to Israel to do it, not the Palestinians as Israel holds the power, and thusly only they can fully solve the problem.

"Ok, I can only attack them if I say something bad about the Palestinians too (remember both sides are not blameless)"

Of course you can say bad things about the Palestinians, them being humans and all, but at least they are the nation who have been oppressed and colonised, and not the oppressive colonisers, like Israel.
Ending with either Israel winning, a WMD stalemate, or complete annihilation that has the US and Russians moving in to control what's left of the oil.

Have read this thread and am quite bemused. I see lots of references to the selective sections of the bible and people touting this as a legal binding to ownership of the land. Whilst it might be a historical reference, I would suggest that using it to argue a case in point in modern law would be fruitless to say the least.

But I digress from my original thought. I understand that there have been many artificial borders drawn in the world and one of those originally was Palestine. It was a country where Jews and Arabs lived. I now see a map that shows Israel where Jews and Arabs live but only Jews have rights and from first hand recollections from ex Israeli army members, Arabs are generally treated with contempt and are persecuted.

I find it hard to comprehend that a Religious group such as Jews can chase down support for themselves for the persecution they received in WWII and in turn they persecute the Arabs that lived in Palestine.

My question is simple, why is it so hard for the Israeli's to coexist? Please don't give me the rhetoric of terrorism, invasion etc.... because Palestinians can claim exactly the same in return. Please give a real answer.

My question is simple, why is it so hard for the Israeli's to coexist? Please don't give me the rhetoric of terrorism, invasion etc.... because Palestinians can claim exactly the same in return. Please give a real answer.

Hey check out todays haaretz, an end to the slaughter may be near. There has been some very intriguing news from Egypt. Here are some exerpts from a verrry intersting article.


"...But if, after years of glacial diplomacy, the mere appearance of movement can be construed as event, a late Tuesday report by Egypt's official Middle East News Agency stood out as a landmark, even in a week of shocking reversals.

According to MENA, "High-level sources confirmed an important understanding -- reaching the point of an agreement in principle -- has been completed between Egypt, Israel, the Palestinians and several active international parties, America and Europe, regarding a comprehensive settlement to the Israeli-Palestinian struggle."

The report highlighted contacts toward a bilateral cease-fire, stirring immediate buzz among surprised Israelis and Palestinians...."


"...A Peace Index poll released on Tuesday found that following the death of Arafat, some 70% of Israelis public is more optimistic about the chances of reaching a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

There has also been an increase in the number of Israelis who
Support talks toward such an accord, from two-thirds to three-fourths.

Perhaps most significantly, among Likud voters the parallel rise in support for peace talks has been even more striking, from 60 percent to a current 75 percent.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=511377&displayTypeCd=1&sideCd=1&contrassID=2

Have read this thread and am quite bemused. I see lots of references to the selective sections of the bible and people touting this as a legal binding to ownership of the land. Whilst it might be a historical reference, I would suggest that using it to argue a case in point in modern law would be fruitless to say the least.

But I digress from my original thought. I understand that there have been many artificial borders drawn in the world and one of those originally was Palestine. It was a country where Jews and Arabs lived. I now see a map that shows Israel where Jews and Arabs live but only Jews have rights and from first hand recollections from ex Israeli army members, Arabs are generally treated with contempt and are persecuted.
I don't know where you got your information from, but Israel is, for the most part, a secular state. Arab citizens have just as many rights as Jewish ones. Why are they treated with contempt? For the same reason that Arabs are treated with contempt in Iran. Or Japanese are treated with contempt in China. Or (for a long time) the English are treated with contempt in France. The Israelis have experienced a tremendous amount of hatred and aggression from the Arab world. Thus, they feel justified in treating the Arabs living in Israel poorly. It isn't right, but it's hard to change things like this (for an example, we're still trying to get equality right in the United States).

I find it hard to comprehend that a Religious group such as Jews can chase down support for themselves for the persecution they received in WWII and in turn they persecute the Arabs that lived in Palestine.

My question is simple, why is it so hard for the Israeli's to coexist? Please don't give me the rhetoric of terrorism, invasion etc.... because Palestinians can claim exactly the same in return. Please give a real answer.
It's just as hard for the Israelis to coexist as it is for the Palestinians. That is to say, if they actually put forth an effort to coexist, they would find that it would be really easy. Both sides have, for the most part, brought this upon themselves. The Israelis with their ridiculous "settlements" and that fence of their's (though I can understand the rationale behind the fence), and the Palestinians with their unwillingness to bargain. I still don't understand why the Israeli government supports the settlements. If someone could explain that to me I would be quite greatful. As for the Palestinians, they have had multiple opportunities to accept a peace. They repeatedly chose to continue fighting, instead of accepting 99% of their demands (the 1% being that Israel ceases to exist, which will never happen as long as they have US support). So putting the blame on Israel, as your question clearly implies, and assuming they could stop the circle of violence whenever they wanted to, is the wrong way to think about the problem.

To make a long story short, there's a lot of blame to be thrown around in this mess. It just pisses me off to no end when someone claims that "Israel is evil" or "Palestine is evil". Neither of them are evil. They're both just very very wrong.

(I guess I should also add that one should be upset at the governments, the PLO and Ariel Sharon, and not at the people themselves. Joe Israeli and Joe Palestinian probably abhor the violence as much as anyone.)

EDIT: To comment on the person what was posted above me, Yasser Arafat was a huge impedement to the peace process. Hopefully things can move along more smoothly now that he has passed on. And having Egypt and Europe involved in the peace process can only be a good thing.

The Confederacy opens fire on Fort Sumpter(?). The Union gets dragged into the Civil War and kicks Confederate ass.

German U-Boats sink the Lusitania with Americans on board. America gets involved in World War 1 and kicks German ass.

The Japanese Navy attacks Pearl Harbor. America gets involved in World War 2 and kicks Japanese (and again, German) ass severely.

The Israelis open fire on the USS Liberty- killing 34 onboard- and plots to use a jet painted in Egyptian military scheme to try and involve America in the Mid-East conflict.

America continues to give billions in aid to Israel annually and does nothing to actively help resolve the Palestinian conflict, or correct Israel's flagrant UN violations.

:rolleyes:

Quite simply, the situation between Israel and its Arab neighbours can realistically only have one type of settlement - and that is a political settlement with compromise by both sides. Warfare (by whichever means) and confrontation is a no-win situation for both.

Unfortunately, neither side appears to be seeking such a solution.

And the seemingly unconditional support Israel receives from the US does not seem to be constructive.

You know what.. if you people are not gonna post anything useful, dont post anything at all.


Israel's only fault is it's existence.. The jew's needed a homeland,we gave them one. No matter where we put them, we would've displaced someone.

Why not displace someone who has tons of places to live in, has their own culture, language and religion and has a deep hatred for anything jewish as well.

The only pro thing the jew's got was the fact we got our ancestral home.

So don't go oh boo hoo those poor Palestinians... they can still get the heck out, go live somewhere else, and we'd still let them visit their "holy" sites.
You know, I love this board. Everyone here posts with such a wonderful sense of irony.

There is, of course, the obvious solution to the whole mess.

There is, of course, the obvious solution to the whole mess.
Nukes?

Perhaps we could engineer a virus that will only kill Arabs.

Nukes?

Perhaps we could engineer a virus that will only kill Arabs.

No, silly. Everyone should become buddhists. Then the conflict would disappear.

No, silly. Everyone should become buddhists. Then the conflict would disappear.
Aw, hell, let's just all give up our material possessions and go live in Tibet.

Aw, hell, let's just all give up our material possessions and go live in Tibet.


Only if I get one of those big yellow hats.

Only if I get one of those big yellow hats.
Oh, okay, then. But I want the bald head/pony tail combination.

I think that peace in IsPal is coming nearer with the day, the only reason for that is that Arafat is dead. He blocked most peace-talks and with him out of the way there's much more room.

If the Palestinians don't want to live in Israel, then they should move to Syria or Lebanon, Jordan or Egypt. The Israeli's build up Israel from a third-world nation mainly based on agriculture to a modern powerfull nation. That only happened through hard work, the "Palestinians" (which only began to identify themselves like that in the 70's, because they came from the surrounding muslim nation.) had nothing to do with that. Israel managed to defend itself in various wars and even managed to grab more land, that that land was inhabited by muslims is too bad, but the Israeli's build up the land, they builded infrastructure and schools.

What did the PLO do? They were corrupt as hell, build Villa's for the leaders and got very big SUVs. Guess how they got that money? It was money from the AMERICANS, EUROPEANS and ISRAELI's (or actually the taxpayers money from those nations,) stop saying that Palestina didn't recieve money, they recieved a lot of it, only the leaders misused it.

^ Pretty good post. The Palestinians can't go back to countries like Jordan, Egypt, and Syria (which is ironic, because before they called themselves Palestinians in the sixties, most of them were Jordanians, Egyptians, and Syrians) won't let them back in. Arafat was corrupt and stole billions in aid money from other nations. America and Europe pay for most of the Palestinian aid (a lot more than surrounding Arab nations). People always complain that America helped Israel in some wars, yet they fail to mention that the Soviet Union helped the Arabs. Israel also actually positively contributes to society. Israel gives America and the world valuable technology. I think the most notable thing is that 80% of the world's biotechnology comes from Israel, which greatly helps to fight against diseases such as cancer. I also recently read that Israelis at Intel in Israel invented the most technologically advanced comupter chip to date, that will makes computers run much faster by far when they become available within a few years. Israel contributes to the world, but the world shows their gratitude very poorly.

Palestine was never a nation. It was a part of Trans Jordan. Israel was given to the Jews as a homeland. Remember nobody wanted the Jewish refugees from Europe during the rise of Nazi power. The palestinians could have lived in peace among the jews, but when the other arab nations decided to attack and push Israel into the sea they asked the palestinians to leave to avoid accidentally killing fellow arabs. Rather than stay and help protect their homes, the palestinians ran away hoping to claim the spoils after the jews were exterminated. The jews won. Boo fucking Hoo.

^ It should also be noted that the Palestinians who stayed in Israel became Israelis.

^ It should also be noted that the Palestinians who stayed in Israel became Israelis.
Aren't there even Muslims in the Knesset? (sp?) How many Jews hold high government positions in Arab countries?

The Israelis open fire on the USS Liberty- killing 34 onboard- and plots to use a jet painted in Egyptian military scheme to try and involve America in the Mid-East conflict.
Right, I have told this story twice, in other threads, but it hsan't sunk in yet, so here it is, for a third time. This from a friend who was in the navy at the time.
The USS Liberty was a USA spy ship, sent to spy on Israel and Egypt. Israel have always claimed that the Liberty was inside its territorial waters, America that it wasn't, either way, lets accept that they were VERY close to Israeli waters, at a time when tensions were high between Israel and Egypt. Israel requested that the unknown ship on the edge of their waters identify itself, but the AMericans, because it was a spy ship, declined. Israel declared a 24 hour ultimatum to the ship to get out of their waters. Again, the Liberty declined, and 24 hours later, Israeli planes and boats moved in, sinking the ship. What IS interesting, is that the Americans sent out planes from ships in the Med 3 times to help the Liberty, yet twice the Secretary of Defence, and then the President, ordered them to return.

There it is, the truth.

^ I believe there are! Then why is Israel considered a Jewish theocracy by some people, that's racist against all other cultures? I guess it's just ignorance and stupidity.

Israel does a lot of good for the world. Just a few things:
-80% of the World's Biotechnology is produced in Israel
-The technology for instant message was developed in Israel
-The fastest computer chip was produced in Intel Israel and will be out in a few years.
-A camera that can be swallowed in a pill and used to view the inside of the circulatory system was developed in Israel
-A device that eliminates the need for needles in cases such as vaccination, medication, anesthetic, etc., was developed in Israel.
-Israelis found out how to stop (not just relieve for a little bit) food allergies.
-Israelis were able to make a natural heart pacemaker out of stem cells
-Israelis are developing a flying car that could be used in medical emergencies
-Israel developed Windows NT

http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=HomePage

A good site for things in Israel outside of the conflict.

There is a big difference between the Isralie attacks and the Palistian attacks. Palistianian suicide bombers intend to kill civilians, Isralie forces dont. They intend to kill millitants.

There is a big difference between the Isralie attacks and the Palistian attacks. Palistianian suicide bombers intend to kill civilians, Isralie forces dont. They intend to kill millitants.
But the big bad Israelis use rockets fired from helicopters. Where are the palestinian helicopters? It's not fair!
Just thought I'd save some of the Anti-Israel people the trouble of posting :)

Nukes?

Perhaps we could engineer a virus that will only kill Arabs.
Of course nukes. Remove everyone from the area, use the newest cleanest H-bombs we have, and turn that area into a fine glass sheet.

-Israel developed Windows NT

The fact that they developed anything winblows is troubling, but at least they produced the most useful of the DOS based versions.

Of course nukes. Remove everyone from the area, use the newest cleanest H-bombs we have, and turn that area into a fine glass sheet.

you could get a lot of car windows out of that area.

You forget that the main reason these middle eastern nations hate Israel is because Israel attacked all of its neighbors many times since it came about, trying to take land, or for even weirder reasons (Can we say "big nameless voice told them to"?). And on the few times Israel's neighbors actually made counter-attacks, Israel went complaining to the US.

Yeah, lets re-hash 2,000 years-old wars to justify the terrorizing of the Israelis by the "Palestinians". "Palestinians" are Jordanians or Arab mutts whom NO ONE in the Middle East will give refuge. The MULTITUDE of Arab countries in the region could give a small portion of land to the Palestinians if they genuinely gave a damn about peace. They want to, in the words of the (finally) late Yasser Arafat, "...push the Jews into the sea." The Arabs in the region will NEVER be satisfied that the Jews have a homeland, especially one that was theirs to begin with, that happnes to be in their backyard.

www.faithfreedom.org

Yeah, lets re-hash 2,000 years-old wars to justify the terrorizing of the Israelis by the "Palestinians". "Palestinians" are Jordanians or Arab mutts whom NO ONE in the Middle East will give refuge. The MULTITUDE of Arab countries in the region could give a small portion of land to the Palestinians if they genuinely gave a damn about peace. They want to, in the words of the (finally) late Yasser Arafat, "...push the Jews into the sea." The Arabs in the region will NEVER be satisfied that the Jews have a homeland, especially one that was theirs to begin with, that happnes to be in their backyard.

www.faithfreedom.org


Lol, you attack me for that, yet you prove my point. Which is that is why said people hate eachother.
And if the Arabcountries could give land, Israel can give land too, espically some f the land they moved in on.
Or..
We could just nuke the whole area, that would solve the problem of the Arabs, Palestinians, Israelies, Europeans, Americans, and whoever is trying to get their hands on land there.
Technicly, the problem there is the people, and I'm not denying that, I'm just going with the topic of the thread, which is Israel.

First off, props for a really good first post. Jews can live and vote in Jordan, also in Egypt but that nation isn't really safe for anyone. The countries you mentioned are the hard-liner states which no one really likes. And yes, I'm sure that it is politically expediant to have a never ending Arab/Israeli crises for the Arab nations, and yes, I'm sure they take advantage of that fact. No one absorbs the Palestinans because no one else really likes them that much. ~Blarg

Thanks BLARGistania

I did know about Jordan but wasnt aware that they could vote in Egypt, might be because as you say its not really a safe place for them to live and I *cough* assumed ( yeah I know what assuming makes me ) that they were not allowed to... Just wish those neighboring states would provide a place for the Palestienians to go to. Isreal isnt blameless in all of this, but if you were a country 15 miles wide at one point with a history of being attacked by your neighbors and having random explosions in your cities, you might be just a little Paranoid too



Well, my first point was Israel is not blameless here but anyway. The Muslims have a problem with the Jews and the Jews have a problem with Muslims. I'm not sure why but thats the way it is. ~Blarg

I believe it started with Mohamad, He approached the Jews trying to come to a peaceful and mutually respectful acknowledgement of each others veiw of their religions. He was rejected. (BONEHEADED MOVE BY THE Isreali's )

Until that time he had prayed torward Jeruselum, afterwards he prayed toward Mecca. While I do not recall Mohamad saying anything derogratory about either Jews or Christians ( Whom he refered to as the Children of the Book along with Musilums ) his successors were a bit more militant...and no I am not a Musilum scholar anyone who has a better understanding of the situation please enlighten me...( I am going off what I recall of a David Attenbourgh BBC program )

The Zionists picked the land. But yes, that is what happened. It was in my little history lesson.~Blarg

Well as far as land grabs go I dont think you can find very many people living on thier original lands..Eskimos and Austrailian Bushmen being exceptions..there have been too many wars and too much migration to sort out the who owned what when. After all..when the climate shifted and the Sahara started drying out the people living in the area migrated East to where the water was...the Nile River and eventually formed the civilization known as Egypt.....was there anyone there they had to displace?..We dont know...and truthfully its useless to badger the point....land is land, ownership changes constantly. Before the Isrealis had it it was owned by the British as a spoils of war from WW1 taken from the Ottoman Empire, before that I want to say it was owned by the Mamluk, before that the Crusaders, before that the Byzantine Empire, before that the Romans...and before that the Greeks....who oddly enough were thrown out of the area by the Jews about 333 BC....if you choose to accept the Old Testament the Jewish ownership of the land dates back to Joshua and his conquest of the the area around 1250 BC....I think its safe to say that there has been a Jewish prescence there for at least 3200 years...

First off, suicide bombers targeting civilians is sick. Let me make that clear for anyone who doesn't understand. I do not condone what Palestine is doing militarily. And yes, the Arabs got their asses kicked three times. This is due mostly because of two things. Israel has a huge amount of U.S. support and the Arabs don't have very good militaries. ~Blarg

^5 BLARGistania, yeah the tactics used as of late could only be called attrocities....what a horrible waste of life on both sides....particularly when a child is used to deliver the bombs.... And yes, the Isreali's have been heavily supported by the US...then again so have the Egyptians and Jordanians and Saudi's...its just the Isreali's seem to pour that assistance in to their defensive forces.....wonder why....


I take the bible as a collection of stories. Christians treat it as absolute truth. Jews treat the Torah as absolute truth. I came from the point of view of a Christian when I used it as a source. For me personally, I don't seem to have any record of Israelis owning Israel before the British gave it to them. ~Blarg

Exodus and the books immediately following that.....while it might not be a totally accurate account it is a written account from the times and in several instances the written account has been verified by other written accounts such as Roman and Byzintine


Back at you.
~Blarg

Thanks for the information and interesting discussion BLARG

"Ok, I can only attack them if I say something bad about the Palestinians too (remember both sides are not blameless)"

Of course you can say bad things about the Palestinians, them being humans and all, but at least they are the nation who have been oppressed and colonised, and not the oppressive colonisers, like Israel.
You missed that whole six-day war thing. Maybe you'd pay closer attention if the war went slower and cost more lives.

You forget that the main reason these middle eastern nations hate Israel is because Israel attacked all of its neighbors many times since it came about, trying to take land, or for even weirder reasons (Can we say "big nameless voice told them to"?). And on the few times Israel's neighbors actually made counter-attacks, Israel went complaining to the US.
What planet are you from? That never happened on this one, not even close.

If you consider the six-day war an offensive strike then you must have missed the part about the huge massing of Arab troops on Israels borders, the Arab diplomats using 'bring it on' rehtoric and the UN peacekeepers abandoning the area...

You know, Israel is the start of Many problems, lets do an old fashioned number down thing! (Not meant for flaming, I have nothing against Israelis, just the whole political thing with Israel.)

1a.Bobby Kennedy got shot by an Arab who was angry cause he wanted to support Israel, Bobby Kennedys runner up was Humphrey, we all know what happened next (but if you dont) Bobby Kennedy would have defeted Nixon before he could even have won his FIRST term, but he died.
2a. Hundreds of Israelis die per year because of the country being attacked.

1b. Israelis moved into Palestine (then called Philistine), killing almost everyone because a big invisible voice told them to.
2b. Israel as a state was created by Great Britian in the 1940s
3b. Israel refuses to admit it took the land.
4. Israel has ignored over 70 UN resolutions


Lets understand that the Israelis are not blameless here.



Going down the list:
1a. That is more evidence of bad arabs than Jews...
2a. And hundreds of Americas die per year because of the wars America is involved in. So what was your point? Isreal has a right to defend itself.
1b. You mean in the bible? The voice was not invisible many prophets had seen parts of God, but usually not the whole thing like a hand, a foot, etc.
2b. Arabs told Palestinians to leave for "a little while". Pales ran so they lost rights to property. GB had the right then.
3b. Isreal did not take it...it developed there. GB took it and gave it to Isreal as you said.
4b. America has ignored many more so eh.

You know what.. if you people are not gonna post anything useful, dont post anything at all.


Israel's only fault is it's existence.. The jew's needed a homeland,we gave them one. No matter where we put them, we would've displaced someone.

Why not displace someone who has tons of places to live in, has their own culture, language and religion and has a deep hatred for anything jewish as well.

The only pro thing the jew's got was the fact we got our ancestral home.

So don't go oh boo hoo those poor Palestinians... they can still get the heck out, go live somewhere else, and we'd still let them visit their "holy" sites.

Pales don't want to live in a state. Its all or nothing so they got greedy.

If you consider the six-day war an offensive strike then you must have missed the part about the huge massing of Arab troops on Israels borders, the Arab diplomats using 'bring it on' rehtoric and the UN peacekeepers abandoning the area...

I used to think that there is possible dispute on whether the Arabs and Israelis started the war. However, after reading part of a book on American involvement in the conflict since 1967, there is no doubt in my mind that the Soviets sparked the conflicts that led to the six day war and the Arabs incited the war from there. Here's a summary from what I have just read (there's probably some holes in it, but this is only from the first 30 pages of a 600 page book I have to read for a project, so I cannot afford to do a close-reading).

The Soviets were the first to incite conflict by falsely reporting that the Israelis were amassing troops on the Israeli-Syrian border. This prompted Nasser (I believe the prime minister of Egypt) to send his troops to the Egyptian-Israeli border, since he thought that Israeli troops were already preoccupied and could seize opportunity to attack Israel (even after finding that the reports were false, he left the troops there because of his previous excuse). He then close off a canal, which really pissed Israel off. Later on, he closed off another large strait that was internationally used and very important to Israel. He closed it off to Israel, making the Israelis more upset. The Americans under the Johnson Administration realized that the Arabs were beginning to incite and prepare for war. However, the Americans and the British wanted them and the Israelis to discuss every possible thing that they could do to avoid war. Israel had a "red light" from America in which if Israel went to war, they would get no help and be looked down upon. To paraphrase Johnson, if Israel decides alone, then they will go it alone. Many strategies were thought of, including an Israeli blockade on Egypt (which America decided was illegal), American ships being brought in to Egyptian ports to attack (which the Americans decided would accomplish nothing), and a multinational effort to send ships in (they didn't have enough nations). While this was taking place, under pressure from Nasser, King Hussein of Jordan sent troops to the Israeli-Jordanian border. Nasser kicked out the UN emergency peace keepers also. It was now clear to Johnson that the Arabs were preparing for war and war was inevitable. He gave Israel the "yellow light" and tried to dissuade Israel from attacking, but realized they had little choice and resigned to the fact that they had to defend themselves, though he would give them very little American aid. War broke out a few days later.

which book?

It's at school now, but the title I think is "Peace Process: A guide to the Arab-Israeli conflict since 1967"