NationStates Jolt Archive

I have never understood this part of Christianity. There's the Father(God), Christ(Apparently also god), and then some ghost. This sounds to me like something made up in the middle ages to confuse peasants. I thought Christianity was a monotheistic belief? Someone please explain. I are confuzzed.

Multiple facets of God. (?) Not sure, even though I'm a Catholic. Er… ask a priest, why do';t you?

Because I'm afraid of being forcefully baptized.

I just don't like talking to religious leaders. Don't ask me why, it's some irrational phobia I have. Seriously, though, I'm surprised noone has posted yet spouting the benefits of being a Christian.

I can if you want. I do it everywhere else ;) . You won't be converted (unless you want to, that is…). I would give you my priest's email, but his computer has broken.

If you have a phobia of priests, you probably need exorcism. I will begin the rites:

"I abjure and command thee, return to the foul pit from whence thou came'st…"

Sorry. I am digressing. Just ask a priest! He won't bite!

The Spirit of Forgiveness & Love & Stuff.... I think

The thing you are referring to, is called the Myster of the Divine Trinity (I hope Im translating it right.) What the msytery says, basically, is that God is those three people, and those three people are God. They are the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. As for how it is possible, it is not known (hence the mystery part). Accepting it by faith is what the christians teach. With the mormons, its the fact that Joseph Smith managed to translate ancient texts, when he was illiterate. Its all a matter of faith.

By the way, Im only repeating what I have been taught. I studied all my 12 years from k-12 in Catholic schools, and was raised Catholic. I, however, am an atheist by choice.

The spiritual embodiment of God. A metaphor for belief in God.

The Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) is the third aspect (or facet) of God. Here is a brief review.

God- The Heavenly father, creator of the universe and Lord of all creation.

Jesus- Son of God, completely God but, completely man (I know, a bit confusing but some things have to be taken on faith) sent to die for the sins of the world to save us all from eternal damnation.

Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit) - Divine counselor-the still small voice other wise known as conscience. Sent to be with mankind until the return of Christ.

So yes, one God (monotheistic) but, 3 forms or aspects or facets. That’s the best I've have ever herd it explained. If I was unclear or you have any other questions, just ask :)

The symbolism of three or a trinity as devine is leftover from pagan times. The symbolisim of the holy trinity was adopted by the Roman Church (as was yuletide/christmas, Beltaine/Easter, All Saints/Sam Hain) to make pagans more ready converts.

Pagans had often identified the earth goddess as the triple goddess ( embodying fertility, growth and destruction, or spring summer and winter.). There are dozens of other example of pre-christian triple gods and goddesses.

In the Roman Church the tripartite symbol used today to refer to the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, was lifted directly from the altar's of the Earth goddess Danu in Celtic mythology. With no reference to the Holy Spirit in the Bible or the Pentateuch , it is surmised that the third aspect was added as a way to help 'legitimize' the Christian dogma in pagan eyes, as were the powers ascribed to Christian Saints, nearly half of all Roman Catholic Saints are simply renamed pagan gods.

After all , what self respecting pagan could believe that a single god could be responsible for ALL of the universe's functions and miracles? The Roman Church's answer - he wasn't! He had all sorts of help from saints and angels and of course his incorporeal friend the Holy Spirit.

That is the story , I'm not sure what the dogma is behind it.

It's a v. good question coz I find that even a lot of Christians disagree about what the Holy Spirit is.
But yeh according to the Bible there is one God, but manifested in three different ways - creator (father), Jesus (son) and Holy Spirit, which is what Jesus said was gonna be sent after he was killed - in the bible in John chapters 14 and 15 he calls it the 'Counsellor'.
Christians (like me) reckon that the Holy Spirit is the manifestation of God that is working in the world today.
As I guess you may have noticed(!!), christians want others to become christians because we believe it's true, and reckon it's the holy spirit which often prompts people to think about their lives and consider whether God is real.

The Holy Spirit is all good around us

Hey gang,

I'm a Protestant believer, and here is best way I can explain the Holy Spirit:

Jesus Christ spoke before his death that, after he died, he would send a "Comforter" to the believers to help guide them. This was fulfilled on the day of "Pentecost" (a Jewish holiday, also where the Pentecostal denomination got their name) when, as many Jews were celebrating Pentecostin Jerusalem, tongues of flame appeared over the heads of the Christian believers that were there. This is when the "Comforter" first came to permanently reside on Earth.
As to what the Holy Spirit is, the Bible never refers to the Holy Spirit as an "it." When Jesus promises the Holy Spirit will come, he uses the word "he." This definitely indicates and actual "person," not an unfeeling force or entity. The best way I have thought of to describe the nature of God is when thinking about your own father. While to you, he is your father, but he is also somebody's son, as well as possibly somebody's husband, brother, etc. Christians believe that God is One, that he is whole and united. However, their are many relationships we have with him.
The Father is that relationship we have with the Creator of heaven and Earth, and the Almighty who has power and authority over our lives. The Son is a reference to how God came down, became a human through divine conception, and sacrificed himself for our sins as a part of humanity. The Holy Spirit is he who we have living inside of us, communicating to us, in Jesus Christ's physical absence, the will of the Father and His will for our lives.

Does that help? Or just more confusing?

With no reference to the Holy Spirit in the Bible or the Pentateuch...
I don't mind you believing something different than me, but if you're going to speak with authority, please try to be correct.
Biblical references to the Holy Spirit:
Old Testament:
Psalms 51:11 "Take not thy Holy Spirit from me"
Isaiah 63:11 "Where is He who put in the midst of them His Holy Spirit"
New Testament:
Matthew 1:20
Lke 2:25
John 20:22 (spoken by Jesus Christ)
Acts 1:5 (spoken by Jesus Christ)

It's one thing to not believe what someone else believes. It's another entirely to try and refute is based on groundless accusations.

With our instincts you can sense by sight/touch/sound (yes with our very own eyes/ears/body) God in this form. It is truly the most amazing thing 'I' think anyone can ever experience. The understanding (knowledge) you gain through God is awesome. On a side note, you do not have to find God through the bible, you can find God by being a good person, by being yourself. God states "no formalities" and "no labels" because they are all barriers to finding God ( God is within everyone of us now waiting to be understood).

We know that the formalities and labels we use within our society only suck the life out of life. That is why God states to "stay away from politics" becuase politics makes us vindictive selfish greedy little people. There is no real peace through politics only leverage and bias. I personally think the reason jesus said the poor will always be present in all of our lives is because he wants to find the people that will help those that are in need the most. The good people that truly have a heart. Life is a test, there is no doubt in my mind. I usually suck at tests!

God wants us all to mesh together as common people not be divided by our labels by saying my religion is better than yours. God is not about forcing conformity. God is all understanding,accepting and loving. God is life & so much more.

God - Mr Big. The grand-pooh-bah. Creater of the Univverse.

Jesus - God decided to come here in person to see what it is like being human.

Holy Ghost - After the ascention of Jesus the Holy Ghost came to live in the heart of Christians. Think like Christmas Spirit, only way more. Along the lines of God living within you.

AKA Big Daddy, Junior and Spook.

Thanks for all the posts, this kind of explains things for me, while at the same time presenting more Christian dogma. At least now it's not just some vague terminology anymore.

I don't mind you believing something different than me, but if you're going to speak with authority, please try to be correct.
Biblical references to the Holy Spirit:
Old Testament:
Psalms 51:11 "Take not thy Holy Spirit from me"
Isaiah 63:11 "Where is He who put in the midst of them His Holy Spirit"
New Testament:
Matthew 1:20
Lke 2:25
John 20:22 (spoken by Jesus Christ)
Acts 1:5 (spoken by Jesus Christ)

It's one thing to not believe what someone else believes. It's another entirely to try and refute is based on groundless accusations.


That all depends, those verses translated (incorrectly) in the King Jame's version of the bible, the standard that everyone uses. Translated correctly from Hebrew what is 'Holy Spirit' that is 'Ruach HaKodesh' means literally 'Holy Spirits' or 'Gods' (note the plural, in early Judaism there were several gods of which Yahweh i.e. Jehovah was the main one, but I digress) . In the Pentateuch 'Ruach HaKodesh' is used to refer to 'beings' made of the same thing as Heaven itself, that is fire and air, and are seem as messengers or voices of god.Though the nature of the Holy Spirit is really nowhere described, the name indicates that it was conceived as a kind of wind that became manifest through noise and light

In the New Testament , Jesus is most certainly referring to God himself although 'Ruach HaKodesh' is not a correct way of doing so in Hebrew , why would the son of God use incorrect terminology when referring to God? Who knows? Not that this matters, there is simply no place in the Bible or the Pentateuch does it tells us what the nature of the 'Holy Spirit' is, and more importantly there is no indication as to why it should considered part of the 'Holy Trinity' .

As for the 'Groundless accusations' that I apparently made, I reread my entire statement can find nothing that indicates I'm accusing anyone of anything? Except that maybe I accuse Christians of making the Church more palatable to Pagans?

Last post on thie topic...

The "groundless accusations" I was reffering to was your assertion that the Holy Spirit was not mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and I still hold to my points to the contrary. And regardless of your personal opinions to the contrary, I doubt anyone, especially any practicing Jew, would support your claim that Judaism at any point was anything but monotheistic, at least not after the calling of Abram.

Although I have no problem understanding that the celebrations of most every "Christian" holiday are mearly pagan knock-offs, or that much of the Roman Catholic church's imagery are simply morphs to make it more palatable to potential pagan converts, I will hold fast to the fact that the Bible gives humanity all that it needs to understand and have a relationship with God, and that all other similairties are simply counterfeits of the Truth.

1 Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

2 Matthew 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

3 Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

4 Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

5 Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

6 Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

7 Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

8 Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

9 Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

10 Mark 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

11 Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

12 Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

13 Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

14 Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

15 Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

16 Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

17 Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

18 Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

19 Luke 4:1 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

20 Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

21 Luke 12:12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.

22 John 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

23 John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

24 John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

25 John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:




More records available in these don't answer your questions

As up pops another topic that's been dead for a few weeks...

Because I'm afraid of being forcefully baptized.

I just don't like talking to religious leaders. Don't ask me why, it's some irrational phobia I have. Seriously, though, I'm surprised noone has posted yet spouting the benefits of being a Christian.

Fear not, unless you find yourself being stared at by Ned Flanders on a Simpson's episode. :D

At sunday school, they used to compare the holy trinity to a cup of tea. A wonderfully british way of looking at things if you ask me. Anyway, the idea is that there's three different parts to a cup of tea.

1) Tea (surprisingly enough)
2) Boiling water
3) Milk

When combined, they don't cease to exist as individual things, instead they comprise a new thirst-quenching entity.

And don't say you take sugar!

Sorry. I am digressing. Just ask a priest! He won't bite!

Bite, no. Fondle, maybe.

Here is an explanation form the Baha'i viewpoint that I think people may find useful. It helped me a great deal when I converted from Catholic, really agnostic at the time, to Baha'i.

The Divine Reality, which is purified and sanctified from the understanding of human beings and which can never be imagined by the people of wisdom and of intelligence, is exempt from all conception. That Lordly Reality admits of no division; for division and multiplicity are properties of creatures which are contingent existences, and not accidents which happen to the self-existent.

The Divine Reality is sanctified from singleness, then how much more from plurality. The descent of that Lordly Reality into conditions and degrees would be equivalent to imperfection and contrary to perfection, and is, therefore, absolutely impossible. It perpetually has been, and is, in the exaltation of holiness and sanctity. All that is mentioned of the Manifestations and Dawning-places of God signifies the divine reflection, and not a descent into the conditions of existence.[1]
[1 Cf. "Pantheism," p. 290.]

God is pure perfection, and creatures are but imperfections. For God to descend into the conditions of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; on the contrary, His manifestation, His appearance, His rising are like the reflection of the sun in a clear, pure, polished mirror. All the creatures are evident signs of God, like the earthly beings upon all of which the rays of the sun shine. But upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits, only a portion of the light shines, through which they become visible, and are reared, and attain to the object of their existence, while the Perfect Man [1] is in the condition of a clear mirror in which the Sun of Reality becomes visible and manifest with all its qualities and perfections. So the Reality of Christ was a clear and polished mirror of the greatest purity and fineness. The Sun of Reality, the Essence of Divinity, reflected itself in this mirror and manifested its light and heat in it; but from the exaltation of its holiness, and the heaven of its sanctity, the Sun did not descend to dwell and abide in the mirror. No, it continues to subsist in its exaltation and sublimity, while appearing and becoming manifest in the mirror in beauty and perfection.
[1 The Divine Manifestation.]

Now if we say that we have seen the Sun in two mirrors -- one the Christ and one the Holy Spirit -- that is to say, that we have seen three Suns, one in heaven and the two others on the earth, we speak truly. And if we say that there is one Sun, and it is pure singleness, and has no partner and equal, we again speak truly.

The epitome of the discourse is that the Reality of Christ was a clear mirror, and the Sun of Reality -- that is to say, the Essence of Oneness, with its infinite perfections and attributes -- became visible in the mirror. The meaning is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, became divided and multiplied -- for the Sun is one -- but it appeared in the mirror. This is why Christ said, "The Father is in the Son," meaning that the Sun is visible and manifest in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. *

This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.

It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. *

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 112)

Just something of incredible interest to me that I'd like to illuminate, regarding the verses mentioned in John 14 and 16.

(All verses New Living Translation)

----
John 14:16-17
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, who will never leave you. He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth.

John 14:26
But when the Father sends the Counselor as my representative--and by the Counselor I mean the Holy Spirit--he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I myself have told you.

John 14:29
I have told you these things before they happen, so that you will believe when they do happen.

John 16:13-14
When the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not be presenting his own ideas; he will be telling you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future. He will bring me glory by revealing to you whatever he receives from me.
----

Christians aside, many Muslims (who, by the way, do regard both the Torah and the Gospel as books of God) believe the 'Counselor' mentioned refers to the prophet Muhammed.
Points of note: the original greek word translated as 'Counselor' was Paraclete, more accurately translated as 'Advocate', or 'Solicitor'.

Some also believe Paraclete to be an error in early transliteration--confused with the word 'Periclyte', or 'The Praised One'. There isn't sufficient evidence for this, though.

As well, the Paraclete is referred to as 'The Spirit of Truth; the initial Greek phrasing being 'pneuma tees aleetheais'. Now, in New Testament Greek, 'pneuma' has more the connotations of "posessor of a spiritual communication," or an 'inspired person' than it does of an actual "spirit". Thus, pneuma tees aleetheais would be more accurately phrased, 'The inspired truthful one.' Supposition is that another early editor did not fully understand the implications of the "spirit of truth" and confused it to be one and the same as the "Holy Spirit".

Even if you don't buy any of the above, there is still one more note to ponder: In these verses, Jesus makes it quite clear that this Counselor hasn't yet arrived-- that he is unkown and will appear at a future point in time. Therefore, the 'spirit' in question cannot be that of the Holy Spirit, as the presence of such an entity has already been acknowledged multiple times (such as when David asked God, "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me." -Psalms 51:11) (n.b. Matthew 3:16-17; 12:27-33, etc.).
Why would Jesus fortell the coming of what had already come? *shrug*

----
No, I'm not trying to preach or to admonish Christianity or promote Islam. I am, though it may be hard to comprehend, a follower of both of these faiths--having been raised a Pentecostal Christian, and a student of Islam for the past years.

The Spirit of Forgiveness & Love & Stuff.... I think
*Builds an Idol to the Spirit of Forgiveness & Love & Stuff*

I can if you want. I do it everywhere else ;) . You won't be converted (unless you want to, that is…). I would give you my priest's email, but his computer has broken.

If you have a phobia of priests, you probably need exorcism. I will begin the rites:

"I abjure and command thee, return to the foul pit from whence thou came'st…"

Sorry. I am digressing. Just ask a priest! He won't bite!
He might if you are young and boy enough :D well more nibble