NationStates Jolt Archive

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.

Hear, Hear, Maynard.

Everyone has their own meaning of holiday spirit.

While I agree with you on the whole concept, I do beg to differ in one respect - the presents one. While the whole retail industry goes over board, I do like the idea of giving and receiving. It's about as much fun to give a present as it is to receive. It doesn't matter whether you bought it or not... It's the time and thought that went into picking or deciding what to give.

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.

Amen! It's sad but true...

No way, it saved it.

Who would look forward to Christmas if there were no presents, turkey, eggnog, and/or football?

While I agree with you on the whole concept, I do beg to differ in one respect - the presents one. While the whole retail industry goes over board, I do like the idea of giving and receiving. It's about as much fun to give a present as it is to receive. It doesn't matter whether you bought it or not... It's the time and thought that went into picking or deciding what to give.

I agree with you, I may have misstated my opinion in this matter. Giving to others is an important part of Christmas, I just think that we as a society should give more to charity others as well as giving to their family members.

No way, it saved it.

Who would look forward to Christmas if there were no presents, turkey, eggnog, and/or football?

Christians.

Super-Christians.

If you want to be nice, you can buy goats for people in poor countries. Everybody benefits!

Ah, ya beat me.

Christmas sucked before it was turned into the compulsary-consumerist sham it is now.

"Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world."
"

and what better way to help staving people than to booste econ growth and help the econ thus produce jobs thuse wealth thus less staving people .

U know how many more people would be starving if we didnt buy the useless stuff at Xmas . imgean how many would lose jobs in the US . imagen how many more would strarve in china and other places that relay heavly on are econ . and i can tell u this i will enjoy my gifts and wealth guilt free this winter like every other =-)

Well, all the eggnog, football, and novelty items are for Consumerites, not Christians.

Christmas sucked before it was turned into the compulsary-consumerist sham it is now.

no one is forced to buy they all do it by free will =-)

and what better way to help staving people than to booste econ growth and help the econ thus produce jobs thuse wealth thus less staving people .

U know how many more people would be starving if we didnt buy the useless stuff at Xmas . imgean how many would lose jobs in the US . imagen how many more would strarve in china and other places that relay heavly on are econ . and i can tell u this i will enjoy my gifts and wealth guilt free this winter like every other =-)

So a child that made those gifts for 25 cents a day will benefit? I think not, the true winner in a Capitalist Christmas are the business owners and corporations.

Christians.


So, it would be celebrated...but seriously looked forward to? It would be like, well, Pearl Harbor day. Sure, you might honor it and such, but you don't look forward to it.

So a child that made those gifts for 25 cents a day will benefit? I think not, the true winner in a Capitalist Christmas are the business owners and corporations.

As opposed to chasing cows around for nothing?

So, it would be celebrated...but seriously looked forward to? It would be like, well, Pearl Harbor day. Sure, you might honor it and such, but you don't look forward to it.

That'd depend on the fervency of the individual adherent, yes? In Consumerite terms, perhaps you're right. For those who really are Christian, instead of using Christ as a jumping-off point for spewing hateful vitriol and venom, you'd be dead wrong.

I hardly bothered last year, I'm not going to bother this year.

If a group of friends wants to go to a restaurant or a movie, sure, I'll do the social thing. But the "Christmas Spirit" BS, hell no. I've had enough, it is so cheap and tacky, I see it as an excuse to take a few days off from revision and waste it doing f--- all rather than a celebration of anything.

The New Year, I like more. Nice, arbitrary, safe ground.

It is precisely the pursuit of goods that makes Christmas so glorious. What could be more glorious than a celebration of man's productive capacity?

I think one's view on this depends a lot on whether or not you are a Christian. If you are, then the day still holds meaning other than Santa and presents - if not, then that's what you look forward to.

I actually got into a very big argument with one of my friends last weekend at a holiday kickoff festival here. He flat out told me that Christmas is not a religious holiday, and that the concept of baking a cake that says "Happy Birthday Jesus" is stupid, seeing as how he wasn't really born on Decmeber 25th. That's what pisses me off about people - just because they aren't of a particular religion that celebrates something, they have to degrade everyone that is (don't they realize that I think they look just as stupid spending tons of money in celebration of a day that they don't even believe in?).

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Why does what others do have any effect on whether or not you put up lights this year? If you're the real fundamentalist type and have a problem with putting reindeer and Santa on your lawn I can sympathize. But it's not like some capitalist went into your garage and took your lights.

Every year at Christmas the country goes round and round about the "dilemma" of keeping Christ in Christmas. Christ is a personal choice, and I don't see how someone else buying a bunch of gifts or watching a football game instead of going to church affects your personal faith. They have a right to do whatever they feel is right as much as you do.

It's OK to have some fun and not take everything so seriously.

The New Year, I like more. Nice, arbitrary, safe ground.

Yes. A holiday for getting drunk...I can't argue with that.

It is precisely the pursuit of goods that makes Christmas so glorious. What could be more glorious than a celebration of man's productive capacity?

How about celebrating the birthday-boy? We're more than aware of our glorious ability to produce useless crap by the tonneload. We celebrate that every time we take the garbage out to the curb.

What's the use in celebrating the birthday of a lunatic who thought he was the son of some non-existent deity and so founded the largest socialist religion on the planet?

Glory is found in man's productive capability and in his pursuit of his self-interest, not in some irrational, evil supernatural entity that doesn't exist.

What's the use in celebrating the birthday of a lunatic who thought he was the son of some non-existent deity and so founded the largest socialist religion on the planet?

Even if you aren't religous, you should still respect Jesus Christ and his teachings from a holistic viewpoint. Perhaps a Ghandi figure of sorts...

I don't care if you don't worship God, just don't get onto others that do.

Why does what others do have any effect on whether or not you put up lights this year? If you're the real fundamentalist type and have a problem with putting reindeer and Santa on your lawn I can sympathize. But it's not like some capitalist went into your garage and took your lights.

Every year at Christmas the country goes round and round about the "dilemma" of keeping Christ in Christmas. Christ is a personal choice, and I don't see how someone else buying a bunch of gifts or watching a football game instead of going to church affects your personal faith. They have a right to do whatever they feel is right as much as you do.

It's OK to have some fun and not take everything so seriously.

I agree and If you celebrate in your own way maybe someone will notice and next year follow your example. Otherwise you have surrendered.

What's the use in celebrating the birthday of a lunatic who thought he was the son of some non-existent deity and so founded the largest socialist religion on the planet?

Glory is found in man's productive capability and in his pursuit of his self-interest, not in some irrational, evil supernatural entity that doesn't exist.

Don't get me started on the whole 'self-interest' boondoggle.

[QUOTE=Liberta Islands]Christmas sucked before it was turned into the compulsary-consumerist sham it is now.

no one is forced to buy they all do it by free will =-)


Got that right

/hate on

The answer you're looking for is saturnalia and yuletide. One was created by the romans and the other by the british. Jesus wasn't even born in December and the Christian religion hijacked saturnalia after the romans were removed from their place of power.

The british took this and added caroling, yuletide, happines, holly, wreaths, trees and all that jazz.

Go celebrate easter.

Screw you guys, I'm celebrating saturnalia.

/hate off

Oh, trust me, I wouldn't let Saturnalia pass without my fair share of feasting, drinking, and rolls in the hay. Some psychotropic substances would go nicely with that. But as an event, Christmas - even though it's the wrong time of year, even though it supplanted the traditional Pagan holidays - is nonetheless a special time of year for Christians. And so it should be, just as surely as Romans paid frequent visits to the vomitorium.

It's just unfair to Jesus, who was - really, who was - a great man, eons before his time, to turn the day set aside in his name into yet another opportunity to shed reams of money for worthless plastic crap that nobody needs.

Oh, trust me, I wouldn't let Saturnalia pass without my fair share of feasting, drinking, and rolls in the hay. Some psychotropic substances would go nicely with that. But as an event, Christmas - even though it's the wrong time of year, even though it supplanted the traditional Pagan holidays - is nonetheless a special time of year for Christians. And so it should be, just as surely as Romans paid frequent visits to the vomitorium.

It's just unfair to Jesus, who was - really, who was - a great man, eons before his time, to turn the day set aside in his name into yet another opportunity to shed reams of money for worthless plastic crap that nobody needs.

Yeah I know, I'm just sick about it. So far everyone's been like:

OMG CAPITALISM DESECRATES JESUS!!!111oneone

Yeah I know, I'm just sick about it. So far everyone's been like:

OMG CAPITALISM DESECRATES JESUS!!!111oneone

Well, it does...

...actually.

But Capitalism doesn't have much to do with Saturnalia, either, though it doesn't obviously 'desecrate' it.

Okay, go not celebrate a pagan holiday. I'll get drunk and have lots of fun.

I don't care if you don't worship God, just don't get onto others that do.

Then perhaps you shouldn't get onto those who don't worship God, or who aren't Christians, and allow them to do as they please, even if that means buying gifts for others.

How did capitalism ruin christmas?

Capitalism IS christmas.

Bucko, you're thinking of Jesus' birthday. That's nowhere near christmas.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm a bit late into this one, maybe someone already tackled the subject, but you're talking about what "The Holy Church" decided is christmas.

Some of us celebrate the solstice, in ways that predate the "whitewashed" holy message your faith presents.

That said, I agree almost fully. It is not capitalism directly, but consumerism. All those weak-minded people that believe in fairy tales let commercials tell them what they have to do, have to buy, have to eat, and so on. The "true meaning" of the holiday wasn't lost, it was intentionally subverted.. first by one faith, and then by the consumer industries.

It is rather sad.

I hardly bothered last year, I'm not going to bother this year.

If a group of friends wants to go to a restaurant or a movie, sure, I'll do the social thing. But the "Christmas Spirit" BS, hell no. I've had enough, it is so cheap and tacky, I see it as an excuse to take a few days off from revision and waste it doing f--- all rather than a celebration of anything.

The New Year, I like more. Nice, arbitrary, safe ground.

I'm with TG.

I'd much rather do the Soviet thing and celebrate the New Year.

ooh rah

I agree with you, I may have misstated my opinion in this matter. Giving to others is an important part of Christmas, I just think that we as a society should give more to charity others as well as giving to their family members.

What makes you think that people don't donate to charity? In the past month I have given money to the Salvation Army, to the Deborah Foundation, donated cans to a food drive, purchased a toy for a kid I'll never meet, donated clothes to a clothing drive....

Honestly, if you don't care to give material items for Christmas, that's well and good -- I prefer to make gifts when possible -- but to make it sound like everyone who puts up a light set and puts something under a tree for a family member is a selfish leech is quite unfair.

The answer you're looking for is saturnalia and yuletide. One was created by the romans and the other by the british. Jesus wasn't even born in December and the Christian religion hijacked saturnalia after the romans were removed from their place of power.

I know this, in fact many scholars believe that Jesus was born in August because of documents concerning Roman tax collection and census.

However, Christmas is still a celebration of Jesus Christ, even if it turned out not to be His true birthday.

Even if you aren't religous, you should still respect Jesus Christ and his teachings from a holistic viewpoint. Perhaps a Ghandi figure of sorts...

I don't care if you don't worship God, just don't get onto others that do.

;) Considering that you tarred anyone who gives presents with the "not really Christian" brush, I find this post very ironic.

Wait, why do poor kids not get as good of toys from Santa? Is Santa that much of an upper-class snob? :)

Christmas is a day celebrated by narrow minded lemmens, who do not even know the true birthday of there "Savior." He in fact was a real person, but he was born on March 3, The same day he died. Christmas or December 25, is celebrating the Fear of Mars the War God. A pagan holiday. The Catholic Church in order to control simpletons, like most of the posters on this thread, by combining there pagan ways with the new Christian teachings.

So I hate you all.

So a child that made those gifts for 25 cents a day will benefit? I think not, the true winner in a Capitalist Christmas are the business owners and corporations.

soooooooooooooo we all dont buy anything or have any fun ? and jsut wait and see what happens to the Global econ . business owners and corporations o and the millions that work for them . sure its not a perfect system but its still the best on earth . =-)

i cant tell are u a Right wing Relgus nut that thinks that Jebus would want us all to Suffer at Christmas . Or r u a left wing nut that hates captilism ? i cant tell . please tell me ?

ahhh this year i will burn natlral gas in my fireplace eat shirp and enjoy gifts and sevices from around the globe =-)

"Wait, why do poor kids not get as good of toys from Santa? Is Santa that much of an upper-class snob"


hmmm your right casue not all are equal we should all be Poor and misrable eqauly on Xmas lol

I donated cans and bought a sweet panda bear for a poor kid I'd never meet.

But, theres going to be kids that dont get presents, so lets just get rid of Christmas. If we wreck everyones holiday, no one will get jealous? Right?

Christmas is a day celebrated by narrow minded lemmens, who do not even know the true birthday of there "Savior." He in fact was a real person, but he was born on March 3, The same day he died. Christmas or December 25, is celebrating the Fear of Mars the War God. A pagan holiday. The Catholic Church in order to control simpletons, like most of the posters on this thread, by combining there pagan ways with the new Christian teachings.

So I hate you all.

That's ok, hon, we still love you.

i think alot of lift winger hat Xmas casue capltlist use santa as ther sybol and well him and carl marx look alot alike .

I donated cans and bought a sweet panda bear for a poor kid I'd never meet.

But, theres going to be kids that dont get presents, so lets just get rid of Christmas. If we wreck everyones holiday, no one will get jealous? Right?

You remind me of that line from The Incredibles: "When everyone's special... NO ONE IS." ;)

The whole gift buying and Christmas lights are there so those who are not involved in the religion can celebrate as well. All of the traditions were put in the holiday to make it so pagans could still keep some customs. Today it is there so those who are not Chrisitian, or not strong Christians, can participate as well. Christians strong in their faith will probably celebrate the holiday without the gifts and lights. Just because they buy a lot of gifts does not mean they are less of a Christian though.

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.

Back up just a bit. There.

Summary: Capitalism has secularized and commercialized chrismas.

Woah. Are you seriously complaining about this? I think it is a drastic improvement. This "God of Money" is a pretty pleasant god, generally less wrathful than the ones of Faith or Mandate. Also, it should be noted that charity and donation efforts are currently at some of their own heights as people donate old toys, books, clothes and similar nonperishables in the mobilization.

Actually St Nick only gave presents to good kids.

If we followed "The spirit of christmas" than only good kids would get presents.
Newsflash, not all poor kids are good, so some of them wouldn't be getting presents either.

I'll have to agree with that. Christmas is ruined. It's not the fmaily event it used to be...makes me happy to celebrate only Hanukkah :D

I'm not a Christian, wasn't even Christened, so I stopped 'celebrating' Christmas the moment it stopped being profitable.
I think the way that capitalists have latched onto holidays such as Christmas and Easter is remarkably ingenious, just like the great thing they have going with popular culture. They've made it so that people react in the way that you experienced; you're expected by society to spend heaps of money on decorations and presents and suchlike. If you don't, you get shunned. Exactly what they've done with popular culture; you don't have the right shoes or the right music, you get shunned. And of course, because they essentially control the market, they can start to dictate, through good advertising and even movies, just how much you're expected to buy, what you should be buying, etc.
I think it's remarkably clever, and I say good luck to them. I think they should push Easter a little harder, in fact; they're not really getting as much out of that as they could.

Anyone see the new Virgin Mobile commercial?

This advertisement featured Christians, Jews, Africa Traditionalists, Agnostics, and Atheists, all of whome enjoyed Christmas by buying Virgin Mobile phones.

This is despicable if you ask me, Capitalism is not only trying to take the Christ out of Christmas, but it's trying to put money into Hannaka and Kwanza.

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.

Yeah, because it is impossible to do both, you know you could put up lights and still celebrate the birth of Jesus, I don't know how it is where you live but in my part of South Dakota a lot of Christmas decoration involve the Nativity scene in one form or another, Christmas at the Cathedral is pretty popular around here also. Perhaps it is different where you live but, in my neighborhood at least, we have not forgotten that Christmas celebrates the birth of Jesus first, and gifts second.

I'm not a Christian, wasn't even Christened, so I stopped 'celebrating' Christmas the moment it stopped being profitable.
I think the way that capitalists have latched onto holidays such as Christmas and Easter is remarkably ingenious, just like the great thing they have going with popular culture. They've made it so that people react in the way that you experienced; you're expected by society to spend heaps of money on decorations and presents and suchlike. If you don't, you get shunned. Exactly what they've done with popular culture; you don't have the right shoes or the right music, you get shunned. And of course, because they essentially control the market, they can start to dictate, through good advertising and even movies, just how much you're expected to buy, what you should be buying, etc.
I think it's remarkably clever, and I say good luck to them. I think they should push Easter a little harder, in fact; they're not really getting as much out of that as they could.

We don't put up any decorations and we haven't been shunned. The US economy gets a boost every holiday, we should have more. :D

i think alot of lift winger hat Xmas casue capltlist use santa as ther sybol and well him and carl marx look alot alike .
Seriously, mate, just run it through spell check. Bad spelling is one thing but this is damn near incomprehensible.

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.


The purpose of Capitalism to to turn a profit. If they want to advertise a holiday, they are allowed to

It is up to the individual to maintain their religious motives, like I do.

Capitalism did not ruin Christmas. The laxity of faith in nearly every person has.

Seriously, mate, just run it through spell check. Bad spelling is one thing but this is damn near incomprehensible.

I bet that is more than you could type in his native language.

It was never that great of a holiday to begin with.

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.

And that very buying of unneccessary gifts helped to lift starving children around the world out of poverty. Today, it does that more than ever.

Quite the contrary I would say.

If the religious aspects of christmas are being drained, so be it, it is better that way.

A holiday where you gather with loved ones and exchange gifts is better, in my opinion, without the taint of religion upon it.

Be festive for the sake of festivity, not out of religious piety or any such rubbish.

Anyone see the new Virgin Mobile commercial?

This advertisement featured Christians, Jews, Africa Traditionalists, Agnostics, and Atheists, all of whome enjoyed Christmas by buying Virgin Mobile phones.

This is despicable if you ask me, Capitalism is not only trying to take the Christ out of Christmas, but it's trying to put money into Hannaka and Kwanza.

The whole buy-our-phone-now propaganda nonwithstanding, I thought the commercial was pretty funny... and it's an interesting way to equalize and promote various holidays. And though I consider myself Christian, my Christmas isn't about Christ. I find it tedious and annoying to try to incorporate Jesus's birthday into my celebrations, particularly when I know Jesus probably wasn't born December 25 and the holiday as I know it was conceived as a fusion of pagan, Christian, and certain other cultural influences. Besides, Jesus and chocolate already share my Easter, which I find perfectly fair. :)

i think alot of lift winger hat Xmas casue capltlist use santa as ther sybol and well him and carl marx look alot alike .

That's kinda abstruse... I will attempt a word-by-word translation: 'I think a lot of left-wingers hate Christmas because capitalists use Santa as their symbol, and well, he and Karl Marx look a lot alike.'

I'm still not sure how to interpret that, but it appears to make more sense.

*Katganistan plans to: spend Christmas Eve with family, go to midnight services and sing to celebrate Christ's birth, spend Christmas with family, spend New Years' with family.

Capitalism did not ruin Christmas. The laxity of faith in nearly every person has.

True, but Capitalism promotes materialism which not only takes away from God, but its also Anti-Christian.

Kind of like the golden bull that the Isrealites worshipped when Moses went to the mountain top, only this time it is Americans worshipping money itself.

True, but Capitalism promotes materialism which not only takes away from God, but its also Anti-Christian.

Kind of like the golden bull that the Isrealites worshipped when Moses went to the mountain top, only this time it is Americans worshipping money itself.

So sorry, but maybe capitalism takes away from God because capitalism had only profit, not religion in mind. I don't think Jesus was out to make a profit.

And money makes the world go 'round. Yes its a hard rock of a truth and we all hate it, but its the truth.

Even if you aren't religous, you should still respect Jesus Christ and his teachings from a holistic viewpoint. Perhaps a Ghandi figure of sorts...

Why? The teachings of Jesus of Nazareth were absolutely despicable, totally evil, and completely morally bankrupt.

So a child that made those gifts for 25 cents a day will benefit?

Are you saying that someone does not benefit by being made better off?

That's just stupid.

Also, let's not forget that 25 cents (or its equivalent in the local currency) has varying purchasing power in various locales. 25 cents in the Dominican Republic will get you a hell of a lot more than it will in the US.

I plan to spend christmas with my family, day after christmas with my family, 27th fly to london with my friend, 10th jan come back.

Because there exists capitalism, and it pervades economically significant events and times, it's RUINED Christmas? You may as well say, America ruined Christmas, or Sun Going Down At Night ruined Christmas. Or that its not ruined at all.

I wish people would stop blaming Capitalism for their disillusionment, disappointment, dismay and dissatisfactions. I keep expecting threads like, "I'm pregnant and Capitalism drinks and punches me in the abdomen!" or "Capitalism destroyed my innocence!"

No way, it saved it.

Who would look forward to Christmas if there were no presents, turkey, eggnog, and/or football?
mmm... eggnog. i got some today. :)

also: i love christmas lights. they have a magical feeling. when you walk down the street and all the houses are light up. it's especially nice when the snow falls.

i think when i get my own house i'll have pretty white lights along my gutters all year long. :)

well. at least all winter long, to compensate for the lack of sunshine.

Are you saying that someone does not benefit by being made better off?

That's just stupid.

Also, let's not forget that 25 cents (or its equivalent in the local currency) has varying purchasing power in various locales. 25 cents in the Dominican Republic will get you a hell of a lot more than it will in the US.

Before Imperialism and Colonialism came these people were much better off.

And no, that 25 cents a day won't go very far no matter what country you live in. That is why so many young girls (and boys) around the world have resorted to prostitution in order to feed themselves.

815 million starving people around the world, Merry Christmas! (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/12/08/world.hunger.ap/index.html)

For my family, Christmas is just a fiesta were we give and recieive presents. Except my father, who is very Catholic and always go to the church.

Before Imperialism and Colonialism came these people were much better off.

And no, that 25 cents a day won't go very far no matter what country you live in. That is why so many young girls (and boys) around the world have resorted to prostitution in order to feed themselves.

815 million starving people around the world, Merry Christmas! (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/12/08/world.hunger.ap/index.html)
in some countries people don't earn up to 25 cents... in a day/week. thats why they resort to prostitution. in some places a dollar is alll u need to buy a bottle of coke... but that same dollar is hard to come buy. think about it

I think that Chrsitmas has been ruined. It's al abot expenditure and about fancy lights and spending a lot of money on posh presents that in reality no-one is going to use anyway. the presents nowdays are judged on how much was spent and not the thought behind it. You can hardly remeber the real reason for it all anymore with all the paraphenalia of lights, decorations, santas, food that no one eats up, festvities and more. Even the christmas dinner is ruined for me. Thee are 50 varieties of turkey, bacon and so much food your eating cold turkey sandwhichs ill the new year. You go out into the high street and all you see are bright lights and shops withs sales and offers, late nights and deals. Your bombarded with consumerist opionons and foced to spend money on gifts and festive things...Chrsitmas has been ruined...

I wish people would stop blaming Capitalism for their disillusionment, disappointment, dismay and dissatisfactions. I keep expecting threads like, "I'm pregnant and Capitalism drinks and punches me in the abdomen!" or "Capitalism destroyed my innocence!"

Capitalism stole my virginity.

Capitalism stole my virginity.
Capitalism wet my bed.
Capitalism ate my homework.

As for me, Christmas is a wonderful time of the year. For me, however, every day is a beautiful day. "This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

Some people are not Christians. Therefore, this time of year may not be as enjoyable.

As for capitalism and giving gifts, I like both ideas. First, in capitalism, a person earns money by providing goods or services, and the person uses that money in exchange for goods and services. As for giving gifts, this is part of charity. Give gifts. The gifts you give are your choice.

People who become all freaked out about spending money on lights or gifts, simply do not want to use their money for that. It is no big deal. Even when I lived in a one-room apartment, where I had to share a bathroom with at least 15 other poverty-stricken men, I still bought a small string of lights for my one window.

If I was so poor that I lived in a cardboard box in an alleyway, I would celebrate Christmas with prayer. I would have no outlets to plug into. I would try to find some person to give a gift to, and do that, nontheless, as part of a ceremonial practice to reflect God giving humans his Son, Jesus.

As for me, Christmas is a wonderful time of the year. For me, however, every day is a beautiful day. "This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Psalm 118:24

Some people are not Christians. Therefore, this time of year may not be as enjoyable.

As for capitalism and giving gifts, I like both ideas. First, in capitalism, a person earns money by providing goods or services, and the person uses that money in exchange for goods and services. As for giving gifts, this is part of charity. Give gifts. The gifts you give are your choice.

People who become all freaked out about spending money on lights or gifts, simply do not want to use their money for that. It is no big deal. Even when I lived in a one-room apartment, where I had to share a bathroom with at least 15 other poverty-stricken men, I still bought a small string of lights for my one window.

If I was so poor that I lived in a cardboard box in an alleyway, I would celebrate Christmas with prayer. I would have no outlets to plug into. I would try to find some person to give a gift to, and do that, nontheless, as part of a ceremonial practice to reflect God giving humans his Son, Jesus.
No, it's just tacky.

There won't be any Christmas lights or Santa Clauses outside my house this Holiday season. Because of this many people have accused my family of not being in the holiday spirit, and this has fueled my following post.

Capitalism ruined Christmas. The meaning of Christmas should be to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, but instead it now is a celebration of money. Saint Nicholos was notorious for giving toys to poor children while we celebrated Jesus Christ and His teachings, but now St. Nick only visits kids whose parents have money. I'm sure that Jesus Christ would look down on those who spend their money on usually unneccesary gifts in a mall while millions of children starve around the world.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.

Hear, Hear!

Capitalism runs parralel to the worst instincts in human nature. Greed being the most obvious. One day Capitalism will fall and we will cheer.

Hear, Hear!

Capitalism runs parralel to the worst instincts in human nature. Greed being the most obvious. One day Capitalism will fall and we will cheer.

Actually, when capitalism falls you'll be poor and miserable. But at least you'll have Christ, eh?

Actually, when capitalism falls you'll be poor and miserable. But at least you'll have Christ, eh?

That is unture, when Capitalism falls (which is inevetiable with the world's growing population and limited resources) only Paris Hilton and George W. Bush (or the like) will be miserable while the rest of the world celebrates.

But Jesus got gifts on Christmas too. Hell, he got gold for Christmas, although he was the future savior of the world, so he earned it. Christmas has become very materialistic but we never spend much on gifts, infact, we usually go on vacation and seeing family.

Hear, Hear!

Capitalism runs parralel to the worst instincts in human nature. Greed being the most obvious. One day Capitalism will fall and we will cheer.

False, capitalism brings out the best in human nature--productive ability, greed and self-interest, reason, and pride.

Wrong both of you. It brings out the most natural of human instincts.

That is unture, when Capitalism falls (which is inevetiable with the world's growing population and limited resources) only Paris Hilton and George W. Bush (or the like) will be miserable while the rest of the world celebrates.
And the majority of people over the poverty line. I really doubt that many people would celebrate socialism. Why? Because it would not work. Someone, like always, would exploit it.

I think one's view on this depends a lot on whether or not you are a Christian. If you are, then the day still holds meaning other than Santa and presents - if not, then that's what you look forward to.

I actually got into a very big argument with one of my friends last weekend at a holiday kickoff festival here. He flat out told me that Christmas is not a religious holiday, and that the concept of baking a cake that says "Happy Birthday Jesus" is stupid, seeing as how he wasn't really born on Decmeber 25th. That's what pisses me off about people - just because they aren't of a particular religion that celebrates something, they have to degrade everyone that is (don't they realize that I think they look just as stupid spending tons of money in celebration of a day that they don't even believe in?).

I agree, although I do think the consumer aspect of christmas is beneficial to our economy I think that the core of the holiday is to celebrate Jesus' birth, even if he wasnt born in December (it was prbly Spring). Your friend wouldn't even have anything to celebrate if it wasnt for Jesus.

If you don't belive in Chrsit then why celebrate his birth?? Is it just to spite all those people who belive in christ but cannot clebrate because they have no money?? Do you really need everything involved in christmas?? Should you thinking of the though of Christ and the the thought behind presents giving instead of the actual prresents?? Yes, you should but it doesn't mean it's going to happen. Consuerism ruined the spirit of Christmas not capitalism. You see before people clebrrated with family, a very cloe gathering of people around chritmas. Go to church, share your gifts with everyone, give money to the neddy, go home eat christmas dinner, watch the christams special soap or whatevrr and go to bed contendted. Now, it's all forget christ, forget church, let's get down to presents. Forget the poor we'll keep alll our money and presents. before even a small present was great because it was the though, people didn't have to spend 1,00's of pounds like they do now. Before people made homemade cards or presents, now the presents are all bought from shops, with big ribbons and gift wrap. Now, instaead of a small tree with home made decorations and a angel you get a huge tree the size of your living room and have thousands of baubles, glitter, tinsel and lights.You drink too much wine, champgane, now that's fine in small amounts but a lot of people treat Chrsitamas as a party, a wine bar. An excuse to get drunk. Many families pay for christmas but yet can't afford it. People get in debt through chrsitmas. Consumerism puts too much pressure on people to but fancy gifts and presents provide big meals with 3 courses, have lots of decorations, lights etc It means many people are worried abouts costs, worried about the consequnces if they don't buy the newest phone or the newest thing out. This makes Chrsitmas a worrying, and bleak time not a happy, festive time..people forget the whole point of Christamas, the message of hope, of light of helping..Of Chrsit's birth..

What's the use in celebrating the birthday of a lunatic who thought he was the son of some non-existent deity and so founded the largest socialist religion on the planet?

Glory is found in man's productive capability and in his pursuit of his self-interest, not in some irrational, evil supernatural entity that doesn't exist.

Whether or not you believe Jesus is the son of God you cannot deny he was a great man who taught his people great morals. He stood up against the corrupt clerics when no one else would and stood by his beliefs to his last painful breath. It is also ridiculous to call him socialist. He encouraged ppl to be caring and charitable. Under a socialist society, however, ppl are FORCED to be that way.

That is unture, when Capitalism falls (which is inevetiable with the world's growing population and limited resources) only Paris Hilton and George W. Bush (or the like) will be miserable while the rest of the world celebrates.

How many cars does your family have? You have a computer, right? A TV? A nice house? Not without capitalism you don't. People complain about capitalism so much, but it's the most effective system around -- it built everything that you take for granted now. How many industrial tycoons do you think there would have been if the Western world had started out as communists? None. We'd still be living in mud huts and I'd bet that a lot of the people who visit this very forum would be dead by now if it weren't for capitalism, or at least the ideals of capitalism.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.

Fuck Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church moved Christmas to December 25 in order to stamp out European pagans' Winter Solstice festivals -- like the Roman Saturnalia. To an extent, the Church was successful for a while. To hell with Christ, where he belongs, and a merry Solstice to you.

Although trying not to bring up the capitalism/communism argument, capitalism is still better than communism in my opinion.

Why?

I'll put it this way. In Capitalism the rich make most of the wealth, however the large amount being created benefits everyone to a certain extent.

Communism should work better - until you put humans into it. Everyone earns equal pay, right? So let's say you have a lazy, fairly stupid person and a very intelligent person who strives and does well. Well, after a while he'll see the lazy person and think "Why bother - I'd still get the same amount of pay."

[wait a sec...I'm getting to the point]

Where this ties in with the topic is in this - the fault with communism is because it relies too heavily on humans keeping their morals (i.e - striving when you're no worse off not trying). In the same way, in modern society the real meaning of Christmas would not work as it would involve thinking about God and Jesus for most of the day and being nice and generous to everyone - some good morals, but many people, including many Christians, wouldn't do that and that alone, because you cannot count on anyone to keep morals. Who here can truly say they are strongly moralistic and live their whole life keeping every single moral. Is it no surprise that no-one's said yes?

Don't blame everything on capitalism nowadays, at least it produces the wealth. Although some people can go over-the-top with consumerism, Christmas is a lot better with capitalism than it would be with communism and more left-wing ideas.

And also, as Ghargonia has hinted at, capitalism is good for the economy, and WAY WAY WAY better for the economy than communism because no-one would be striving, see my above example. Ad you know it, would you enjoy Christmas more in a country with a good economy where Christmas is mainly about giving and receiving and having a good time, or in a poor country sitting around reading the Bible, thinking of God and being helpful? You don't even need to answer that - greed may be a bad instinct, but it is a natural one and doesn't need capitalism to bring it out - you all know your answer to the former, however much you deny it to yourselves, and it's just proven to you that greed runs anyway. Loads of people would really miss a capitalist Christmas if we were suddenly laden with that of the poor country sitting around reading the Bible, thinking of God and being helpful, and you know it. So stop blabbing about how capitalism ate your homework. ;) :rolleyes:

Fuck Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church moved Christmas to December 25 in order to stamp out European pagans' Winter Solstice festivals -- like the Roman Saturnalia. To an extent, the Church was successful for a while. To hell with Christ, where he belongs, and a merry Solstice to you.
Yeah, the Catholic Church should have incorporated some of the pagan traditions at least. That way it could ease the transition and make everyone happy.
[/not sarcasm]

Fuck Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic Church moved Christmas to December 25 in order to stamp out European pagans' Winter Solstice festivals -- like the Roman Saturnalia. To an extent, the Church was successful for a while. To hell with Christ, where he belongs, and a merry Solstice to you.

Precisely. ;)

How many cars does your family have? You have a computer, right? A TV? A nice house? Not without capitalism you don't. People complain about capitalism so much, but it's the most effective system around -- it built everything that you take for granted now. How many industrial tycoons do you think there would have been if the Western world had started out as communists? None. We'd still be living in mud huts and I'd bet that a lot of the people who visit this very forum would be dead by now if it weren't for capitalism, or at least the ideals of capitalism.

Once again, precisely. One of the few communist nations nowadays is Cuba. They're still living in 1960.

Whether or not you believe Jesus is the son of God you cannot deny he was a great man who taught his people great morals. He stood up against the corrupt clerics when no one else would and stood by his beliefs to his last painful breath. It is also ridiculous to call him socialist. He encouraged ppl to be caring and charitable. Under a socialist society, however, ppl are FORCED to be that way.

1) Yes I can. Jesus was a douche. There, see how easy that was?

2) "hellfire" is a pretty good argument winner, so yeah, I'd say their forced in both aspects.

That said, I feel that both Jesus Christ and Saint Nicholos are shaking their heads in Heaven while Capitalists use Christmas as a holiday to worship their new God of Money.
You'd like my 2 year old daughter. I explained all about Father Christmas and how if she'd been good he'd bring her nice things on Chirstmas Eve. Then I asked her what she thought she might like.

"I'd like an ice lolly, a lolly and some warm milk".

Then a little later, she added "If I'm really good can I have a balloon and a cuddle?"

My 7 year old's not quite as good, but better than many. However, things are going to be a little tricky this year as he claims to have already written to Father Christmas. I asked him what he'd asked for - and said it's between him and the bearded bloke and none of my business.

I asked him what he'd asked for - and said it's between him and the bearded bloke and none of my business.

Kids have a way with words :D

Whether or not you believe Jesus is the son of God you cannot deny he was a great man who taught his people great morals.
He taught altruism, selflessness, and collectivism--which are not only sickening, but they are objectively WRONG morals.
It is also ridiculous to call him socialist. He encouraged ppl to be caring and charitable. Under a socialist society, however, ppl are FORCED to be that way.
Not at all. Just like socialists, his ideology rested on the notion that the individual is not an end in himself, but rather a means to some other end--also a despicably evil and objectively incorrect idea.

1) Yes I can. Jesus was a douche. There, see how easy that was?

2) "hellfire" is a pretty good argument winner, so yeah, I'd say their forced in both aspects.


Wow, I thought ppl on the forum would be a lot more mature than this.

He taught altruism, selflessness, and collectivism--which are not only sickening, but they are objectively WRONG morals.

Not at all. Just like socialists, his ideology rested on the notion that the individual is not an end in himself, but rather a means to some other end--also a despicably evil and objectively incorrect idea.

and I guess you would say selfishness and arrogance are virtues? Great morals buddy. Its ppl like you who make the real supporters of capitalism look bad.

and I guess you would say selfishness and arrogance are virtues?
Selfishness, yes, because it is. Arrogance, I did not mention, but when justified it most certainly is as well.
Great morals buddy.
Not only are they great and pro-human, but they are also objectively correct morals.

and I guess you would say selfishness and arrogance are virtues? Great morals buddy. Its ppl like you who make the real supporters of capitalism look bad.

I AM a real supporter of capitalism, even more so than you.

I AM a real supporter of capitalism, even more so than you.

You believe in taking advantage of a capitalist system for your gains and other's loses. I dont believe the capitalist system is perfect partly because of ppl like you but I believe in it because it is the best damn system there is. There is nothing wrong with compassion for others.

You believe in taking advantage of a capitalist system for your gains and other's loses. I dont believe the capitalist system is perfect partly because of ppl like you but I believe in it because it is the best damn system there is. There is nothing wrong with compassion for others.

Nope. The logical conclusion of your core beliefs (such as altruism and that the individual exists not for his own sake but for the sake of others) is not capitalism but very much socialism. Thus, you are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

Capitalism is a system in which each individual is left free to do as he pleases so long as he does not initiate physical force or fraud against the person or property of another individual without his consent. Such is the logical conclusion of the objectively correct virtues of selfishness, individualism, and greed.

oh, and i hope u never have kids. they wont survive for very long if they have to depend on you for their needs.

Please don't be so shallow.

For one thing, assuming I value the company of my children, see if you can guess what the self-interested thing to do is.

For another, remember that though I did not decide whether the stranger down the road came into existence, I DID choose to bring my own children in existence--thus, I have accepted responsibility for providing for my children until they are able to provide for themselves.

Start thinking, please. It's a useful skill. And I also suggest you try actually ANSWERING points, rather than going off on tangents like you just did.

Nope. The logical conclusion of your core beliefs (such as altruism and that the individual exists not for his own sake but for the sake of others) is not capitalism but very much socialism. Thus, you are either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

Capitalism is a system in which each individual is left free to do as he pleases so long as he does not initiate physical force or fraud against the person or property of another individual without his consent. Such is the logical conclusion of the objectively correct virtues of selfishness, individualism, and greed.

You are distorting what I say. The reason I don't believe in socialism/communism is because it is wrong for the government to force ppl to live a certain way. If you want to keep everything for yourself that is your choice, I'm not gonna infringe on that. But you also shouldn't call my willingness to give to others when I have more than enough IMMORAL. Why do u think so many Christians aren't socialists? Think about it!

And I wasnt intending to be shallow, I was simply illustrating a point.

Who's the one being shallow? You called me ignorant simply because I like to give to others.

You are being shallow because you are refusing to think through to the logical conclusion of the ideas I have put forth and instead creating strawmen based on your (incomplete) prima facie assessment of them.

And you are simply making my point for me--just because you do not realize (or refuse to acknowedge) that socialism is the logical conclusion of your fundamental premises does not make it any less so. If your opposition to socialism stems from a failure to realize that it is the logical conclusion of your first premises, then you are being ignorant. If you are aware that it is the logical conclusion of your first premises but you oppose it anyway, then you are being intellectually dishonest.

Let me ask you this: Was Andrew Carnegie a socialist because he willingly gave his money to society for the construction of a library?

so·cial·ism :
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

2.The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

from dictionary.com


Hmmm, doesn't include individuals who willingly give to others; interesting.

Please. Start. Thinking.

Look, just because your outward actions are not that of a logically consistent socialist (by logically consistent I mean internal consistence, not consistence with objective reality--which socialism most certainly lacks) has nothing to do with it. The logical conclusion of your fundamental premises is socialism. That you do not outwardly act as a socialist might simply means that you are either ignorant of that fact, or are aware of it but dishonestly ignoring it.

Let me ask you this: Was Andrew Carnegie a socialist because he willingly gave his money to society for the construction of a library?

He was not a socialist if:
(a) his motive was ultimately selfish; and
(b) he recognized that selfishness was fundamentally good and virtuous.

If either of those conditions is false, then yes, he was a socialist.

I guess then along with me, all of my of my libertarian friends, and dictionary.com are ignorant.

First I had to deal with self-loathing socialists and now I'm dealing with a self-loving capitalist. I made my case, I stand by it more than ever, and now I'm through.

so·cial·ism :
1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

You know, if you try to use that then the USSR wasn't Socialists or Communists because they sure as hell could not control the economy.

I guess then along with me, all of my of my libertarian friends, and dictionary.com are ignorant.

Are you implying that I'm NOT a libertarian?

But yes, you must be ignorant. Have a nice day.

I made my case,
Actually, you have utterly failed to make your case, which is why I'm still arguing with you. To make your case you have to show (a) that your conclusion logically follows from your premises and (b) that your premises are correct. You have done neither. If you had made your case then, as an honest individual, I would have had to concede to you and adopt your ideas. I have not done so, because you most definitely have NOT made your case. You have merely stated your case, which is nothing more than the first step towards MAKING your case.

You know, if you try to use that then the USSR wasn't Socialists or Communists because they sure as hell could not control the economy.

They certainly attempted to control the economy but of course they could not. The USSR is a great example of how socialism/communism doesnt work.

Why does what others do have any effect on whether or not you put up lights this year? If you're the real fundamentalist type and have a problem with putting reindeer and Santa on your lawn I can sympathize. But it's not like some capitalist went into your garage and took your lights.

Every year at Christmas the country goes round and round about the "dilemma" of keeping Christ in Christmas. Christ is a personal choice, and I don't see how someone else buying a bunch of gifts or watching a football game instead of going to church affects your personal faith. They have a right to do whatever they feel is right as much as you do.

It's OK to have some fun and not take everything so seriously.
Hey, just because the fucking Vatican hijacked Saturnalia to make the Pagans convert does not make it a valid holiday. They did the same damned thing with Easter as well.

Christmas sucked before it was turned into the compulsary-consumerist sham it is now.

no one is forced to buy they all do it by free will =-)


Few people have free will, responding rather than thinking, habitualising their lives to the most cofortable position possible.
People will follow the path of "the most comfortable" and do what it takes to maintain it. Soon the demand of maintaining this lifestyle takes control, and free will is subdued.

Modern Christmas - a mixture of pagan rituals infused with Christian dogma - has little to do with what it tries to sell.

Let me ask you this: Was Andrew Carnegie a socialist because he willingly gave his money to society for the construction of a library?
No, the more intelligent people there are the farther society advances. A library is naught but a source of information. You must actively choose to utilize it to gain any value from it.

Few people have free will, responding rather than thinking, habitualising their lives to the most cofortable position possible.
People will follow the path of "the most comfortable" and do what it takes to maintain it. Soon the demand of maintaining this lifestyle takes control, and free will is subdued.

I call bullshit.

Sorry, but that's all it is--utter bullshit. If there were more to it than that then I'd give more in response, but there's not.