NationStates Jolt Archive

Is suicide bombing real martyardom?

I personally dont believe so. True martyardom in my opinon has several preqrisites to be true

1. The cause your fighting for neads to be clearly and dilibrately opressed by the government of your nation

2. Someone else need to kill you. If you do kill yourself it must be in a peaceful method, though public.

3. If you do kill yourself with a bomb, it is more true martyerdom if you target millitary tagets. Blowing up civilians is unnesscery. It is extremely doubtful that said civilians would be causing you a problem.

I just think killing yourself for martyrdom is rather like saying you are brave if you go round picking fights with people. Going around blowing yourself up and others with you is just a symptom of a cause without help. But the more interesting question is what do you think?

mar·tyr Audio pronunciation of "martyr" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (märtr)
n.

1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
3.
1. One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
2. One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.


tr.v. mar·tyred, mar·tyr·ing, mar·tyrs

1. To make a martyr of, especially to put to death for devotion to religious beliefs.
2. To inflict great pain on; torment.


[Middle English, from Old English, from Late Latin, from Late Greek martur, from Greek martus, martur-, witness.]

Mainstream muslim thinkers and leaders say that it is not matrydom as it is a political struggle and not a religious one. As it says above, martyrdom is "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles."

Mainstream muslim thinkers and leaders say that it is not matrydom as it is a political struggle and not a religious one. As it says above, martyrdom is "One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles."
Yeah, but according to "2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle," than it could be considered as martyrdom.

it all depends

What about the Palestinians?
They are treated like conquared people without any rights, not to mention the fact that 72% of the Isreali adult population have military training. Also, almost all the settlers have guns and they do regularly shot and kill palestinians.
I have a very strong stance against suicide bombings, but it is clear whats happening in the occupied territories. When you label people as "dogs", deny them basic human rights, and turn the world's sixth largest army lose on them, you can expect such things.

side note- what is the definition of anti-semitism, and why does it only apply to people of hebrew descent when arabs are also semitic people.

Yeah, but according to "2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle," than it could be considered as martyrdom.
Yes. Mainstream Islam doesn't think this is true. They say that dying violently fighting enemies does not garruntee martyrdom as the more extremist versions like to assert. They see the current "war against terrorism" and the struggle against Israel as political wars, not religious.

marytardom

martyardom

martyerdom

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Well, if you use some artificialy made explosive to blow yourself up, then now it's not.
It's only a Martyr in Gods eyes if you use all natural explosives.
Lol.

And don't forget, a Civillian is just a soldier who hasn't signed up yet.

It's all how you look at it. In fact, I don't even think of these "Scuicide Bomber's" reasons when they do it, it's tactically stupid unless you do ALOT of damage.
They can be martyrs all they like, to me they're morons.

What about the Palestinians?
They are treated like conquared people without any rights, not to mention the fact that 72% of the Isreali adult population have military training. Also, almost all the settlers have guns and they do regularly shot and kill palestinians.
I have a very strong stance against suicide bombings, but it is clear whats happening in the occupied territories. When you label people as "dogs", deny them basic human rights, and turn the world's sixth largest army lose on them, you can expect such things.

side note- what is the definition of anti-semitism, and why does it only apply to people of hebrew descent when arabs are also semitic people.

Anti-Semitisim applies to being against all peoples of the Arabian Peninsula (Spelling?). Unfortunatly, nowadays people use it solely for being against the Jews.

What about the Palestinians?
They are treated like conquared people without any rights, not to mention the fact that 72% of the Isreali adult population have military training. Also, almost all the settlers have guns and they do regularly shot and kill palestinians.
I have a very strong stance against suicide bombings, but it is clear whats happening in the occupied territories. When you label people as "dogs", deny them basic human rights, and turn the world's sixth largest army lose on them, you can expect such things.

side note- what is the definition of anti-semitism, and why does it only apply to people of hebrew descent when arabs are also semitic people.

It would be good for once to have a look at the big picture instead of just looking at the outcome.

Antagonism between the Jewish people in Israel and the Arabs that lived here when England and before them the Turks rulled here.
The Jews were killed and persecuted, much like they were in Europe.
Read about the history that happened here, and now look at the picture.

When the Jewish people fought wars and won, much to the disdain of most of the world. The Jewish people here before the declaration of Independance were always fighting to protect themselves.

We have now a situation where by war was declared, fought and won. We won. Since the Arabs states that surround us decided NOT to accept the refugees that left here, whether by force or by their own decision. Some did not leave, but yes they were on the losing side. This happens when your peoples make war!
Now, some of these same people decide not to stop fighting with us, and have done for many many years, even before the 6 day war, terror attacks. There is only so much a country and a people can take, before we have to say fxxx it and fight back. And we do. So sorry it is not to the taste of Europe! or the .... UN (the un biased .. not!)
We in Israel fight back, but if you think that if the whole army were to be "Let loose" then you do not know what the hell you are talking about. Settlers do not regularly kill palestinians, and beside the point that they are a pain in the butt for us, more than you think, they get shot at alot more than they give back. They are not "nice". They are really hardcore, and if they did have the control of this country then alot more Palestinians would be dead !

Who the hell labels them "dogs". You must be reading their newspapers and listening to thier TV, because that is what they call us !

As for the topic of the subject..... they can blow themselves up all they want, as long as it does not hurt my people, if so.. then I will put up road blocks, do night raids looking for them before they get to my people .... get the pic !!? Maybe the %80 reduction of attacks is because of the wall.... hmmmm then I am for the wall!

Martyrdom is a dastardly way for the extremest to manipulate people (I personally was at a road block when a young kid turned himself in to us) Makes me mad. His life is basically ruined because he cannot go back to his own people. Is that because of us...

ok ok, rant over.

Spelling fixed...

Is suicide bombing real martyardom?

I personally dont believe so. True martyardom in my opinon has several preqrisites to be true

1. The cause your fighting for neads to be clearly and dilibrately opressed by the government of your nation

2. Someone else need to kill you. If you do kill yourself it must be in a peaceful method, though public.

3. If you do kill yourself with a bomb, it is more true martyerdom if you target millitary tagets. Blowing up civilians is unnesscery. It is extremely doubtful that said civilians would be causing you a problem.

I just think killing yourself for martyrdom is rather like saying you are brave if you go round picking fights with people. Going around blowing yourself up and others with you is just a symptom of a cause without help. But the more interesting question is what do you think?

So... you are saying all the early Christian martyrs who were killed by people and/or governments of nations other than their own while trying to prosletyize were not martyrs?

Trying to redefine words to fit your own idealogy is silly.

It would be good for once to have a look at the big picture instead of just looking at the outcome.

Antagonism between the Jewish people in Israel and the Arabs that lived here when England and before them the Turks rulled here.
The Jews were killed and persecuted, much like they were in Europe.
Read about the history that happened here, and now look at the picture.

When the Jewish people fought wars and won, much to the disdain of most of the world. The Jewish people here before the declaration of Independance were always fighting to protect themselves.

We have now a situation where by war was declared, fought and won. We won. Since the Arabs states that surround us decided NOT to accept the refugees that left here, whether by force or by their own decision. Some did not leave, but yes they were on the losing side. This happens when your peoples make war!
Now, some of these same people decide not to stop fighting with us, and have done for many many years, even before the 6 day war, terror attacks. There is only so much a country and a people can take, before we have to say fxxx it and fight back. And we do. So sorry it is not to the taste of Europe! or the .... UN (the un biased .. not!)
We in Israel fight back, but if you think that if the whole army were to be "Let loose" then you do not know what the hell you are talking about. Settlers do not regularly kill palestinians, and beside the point that they are a pain in the butt for us, more than you think, they get shot at alot more than they give back. They are not "nice". They are really hardcore, and if they did have the control of this country then alot more Palestinians would be dead !

Who the hell labels them "dogs". You must be reading their newspapers and listening to thier TV, because that is what they call us !

As for the topic of the subject..... they can blow themselves up all they want, as long as it does not hurt my people, if so.. then I will put up road blocks, do night raids looking for them before they get to my people .... get the pic !!? Maybe the %80 reduction of attacks is because of the wall.... hmmmm then I am for the wall!

Martyrdom is a dastardly way for the extremest to manipulate people (I personally was at a road block when a young kid turned himself in to us) Makes me mad. His life is basically ruined because he cannot go back to his own people. Is that because of us...

ok ok, rant over.

There are so many sides to every issue...

I respect anyone willing to defend his/her stance, especially when it effects him/her directly.

Good job.

i dont know

can you be a martyr and a murderer at the same time? it doesnt seem right to me but i guess i could be persuaded

can you be a martyr if you are DUPED into thinking that you are dying for your religion when you are really dying for the meglomania of the head of the terrorist organization you fell in with? that seems way less likely to me. is YOUR intention more important that the reality of the situation?

i just dont know

If you look at what the Prophet once told his followers; it is not because you are not supposed to fight children and unarmed women.

The suicide bombers do just that.....

Well, whether or not it's martyrdom is probably a matter of opinion, and opinions are like... well you know what I was going to say.

I'm sure we can all agree, however, that it means that we'll be replacing the carpet after we clean up the gibs...

I dont know if anyone out there agrees with me but calling suicide bombing mayrterdom is like calling a thug brave if he picks fights with everyone and anyone. Do people see what I am getting at?

I dont know if anyone out there agrees with me but calling suicide bombing mayrterdom is like calling a thug brave if he picks fights with everyone and anyone. Do people see what I am getting at?

I see what you are getting at, but you are also seeing it from your own point of view.

But say a U.S. soldier were to somehow stumble onto a high level Al-Queda meeting and set of a grenade, in the process killing himself, Osama Bin-Laden and a bunch of other high ranking terrorists. Most people in the United States would consider that soldier a martyr, or at the very least a hero, while people sympathetic with Al-Queda's goals would think that the soldier was scum.

Not understanding or agreeing with the idealogy behind an action doesn't change the fact that the suicide bombers were martyring themselves for their own ideals - they really think the people they are attacking are "evil." Whether other people consider that person a martyr or a terrorist is largely a matter of what they think about the cause that gave rise to the action of suicide bombing.

Personally I think killing others to advance an idealogy is pathetic and stupid no matter what the reasons behind it are.

I have a contention with the title of this thread. Why did you bother phrasing it as a question? It's blatantly obvious that you've already made up your mind on the matter and you have no intentions of ever changing it, no matter what. So why bother acting like you're open to change? Just pose it as a blanket statement as you intended it and stop fucking around.

I have a contention with the title of this thread. Why did you bother phrasing it as a question? It's blatantly obvious that you've already made up your mind on the matter and you have no intentions of ever changing it, no matter what. So why bother acting like you're open to change? Just pose it as a blanket statement as you intended it and stop fucking around.

jeese, a little touchy aen't we?

besides, it is compltetly fair to pose the question in hopes of finding other view points

I see what you are getting at, but you are also seeing it from your own point of view.

But say a U.S. soldier were to somehow stumble onto a high level Al-Queda meeting and set of a grenade, in the process killing himself, Osama Bin-Laden and a bunch of other high ranking terrorists. Most people in the United States would consider that soldier a martyr, or at the very least a hero, while people sympathetic with Al-Queda's goals would think that the soldier was scum.

Not understanding or agreeing with the idealogy behind an action doesn't change the fact that the suicide bombers were martyring themselves for their own ideals - they really think the people they are attacking are "evil." Whether other people consider that person a martyr or a terrorist is largely a matter of what they think about the cause that gave rise to the action of suicide bombing.

Personally I think killing others to advance an idealogy is pathetic and stupid no matter what the reasons behind it are.

there are those who think that tim mcveigh is a martyr (executed for the oklahoma city bombing)

supposedly he did what he did in retaliation for the WACO massacre.

so if you look at THAT, thus taking out our ambivalence and lack of understanding of islamic suicide bombers.....

you still end up with a big fat NO

wrong, delusional, evil, may he rot in hell.

well that clarifies the issue for ME at least.

Is suicide bombing real martyardom?

I personally dont believe so. True martyardom in my opinon has several preqrisites to be true

1. The cause your fighting for neads to be clearly and dilibrately opressed by the government of your nation

2. Someone else need to kill you. If you do kill yourself it must be in a peaceful method, though public.

3. If you do kill yourself with a bomb, it is more true martyerdom if you target millitary tagets. Blowing up civilians is unnesscery. It is extremely doubtful that said civilians would be causing you a problem.

I just think killing yourself for martyrdom is rather like saying you are brave if you go round picking fights with people. Going around blowing yourself up and others with you is just a symptom of a cause without help. But the more interesting question is what do you think?
Say it with me...Homocide bombing. It is murder. Suicide bombing would be blowing themselves up and taking no innocents with them.

I believe that the 'true martydom' of an action is a purely religious concept and because of that completely subjective.


I believe that when palestinians or others go on a suicide mission, they are displaying great courage and faith.

Yes, suicide bomers are martyrs. Is it a good idea though? Probably not. Do the Palestinians have any better methods of struggle? Not really, the Israelis kill pacifistic protestors like Rachael Corrie, the woman who was run over by a bulldozer or Thomas Hurdall the british protestor who was shot in the head by a Israeli sniper without hestiation. When you are dealing with a uncivillized regime like the one in Israel you don't exactly have a lot of good options.

Rachael Corrie = Stupid f'n idiot.

Not really, the Israelis kill pacifistic protestors like Rachael Corrie, the woman who was run over by a bulldozer

That was accidental.

Rachael Corrie = Stupid f'n idiot.

Speaking of Rachael Corrie (a murdered american), her story applies to this thread directy, because she was a *martyr.*

That was accidental.


According to the israeli army?

According to the israeli army?

Here's how the situtation played out:

1. Rachael Corrie protests the bulldozing of a terrorist's house.
2. The guy manning the bulldozer tells her to go away. They argue and she finally seemingly gives in, so the guy turns around and drives the bulldozer again.
3. Rachael Corrie instead still stands right there, which was pretty stupid, considering that she wasn't in the line of sight of the person in the bulldozer, kind of like if you were to jump in front of a big rig truck at a red light, only a few feet away. When the light turns green, you get crushed.
4. The guy manning the bulldozer doesn't see Rachael and she gets crushed.

It's funny how the Rachael Corrie incident is exaggerated on and on, yet you hear nothing of the dozens of Americans killed purposely by Palestinian terrorists.

While it is true that a large percentage of the Israeli population has military training, this is only because military service is compulsory in that country. Are you implying that all Israeli's are military targets?

Are suicide bombers martyrs? I'm-a say no. Martyrdom, to me, implies being killed by an infidel for one's beliefs. So, for example, the insurgents who are killed fighting in Iraq may rightly be considered "martyrs" by extreme Muslamists. But suicide bombing seems cheap and cowardly. One willingly removes oneself from the fight. That's not martyrdom: that's apostasy.

While it is true that a large percentage of the Israeli population has military training, this is only because military service is compulsory in that country. Are you implying that all Israeli's are military targets?

All palestinians are targets for the israeli military, so in an extended sense, yes.

All palestinians are targets for the israeli military, so in an extended sense, yes.

LMAO

I'm thinking that in addition to wearing body armor, one might prepare for suicide bombers by wearing drip-dry clothing, and carrying a mop and a bucket.

All palestinians are targets for the israeli military, so in an extended sense, yes.
Wow!

Just, Wow.

Advocating the murder of innocent Israelis.

A New Low.

NO NO NO NO NO and No. Ppl who blow themselves up are fine(well no but what ever their in to), but to include other people is just a waste of time. Take the Palestinians (this doesn't inc all only some) by some idiotic belief that suicide bombing actually works and will one day lead to a free and independant Palestine..keep on dreaming, yes it draws attention to their cause but brands them as terrorists. I think ppl who do commit suicide bombings should be public named as scardy cats taking the easy way out cos ya that'd show em!!!!!