NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1102207849935_9/?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Despite what has happened in the fallout of the last such scandal, there is still abuse going on. Do these guys ever learn?
Actually, this begs another question to my mind: does our military attract only the bottom percentile of each graduating class? My biggest fear about them is that they do.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1102207849935_9/?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Despite what has happened in the fallout of the last such scandal, there is still abuse going on. Do these guys ever learn?
Actually, this begs another question to my mind: does our military attract only the bottom percentile of each graduating class? My biggest fear about them is that they do.

Learn what? The Shrub thinks he is mandated by God and the 58 Million that voted for him to do whatever he wants.

As to the military comment? Nah. The SEALS are rather picky about whom they take(refering to the article).

There are many who think the method of war has changed. The traditional rules no longer apply.

As one person commented. Geneva is for armies and people that can be reasoned with. You can't reason with a terrorist.

"We are going to spread Democracy to the world and win this War on Terror, and if that means abandoning all the principles that make us what we are and fighting on their terms, well so be it."

He didn't say it, but he may as well have.

FYI, these photos were taken before Abu Gharib took place.

Well guys, I don't blame this on the adminisitration. Stuff like this would happen regardless of who's president. I blame it on the soldiers that did it, and whoever on the chain of command endorsed it. It'd be unreasonable to assume that someone higher on the chain of command would want this, if only to avoid a PR scandal. But I guess we'll see. In the meantime, it's a little too early for any of us to judge this, including me.

FYI, these photos were taken before Abu Gharib took place.
Oh, okay. I sorta got the impression that they were new. However, I hope that these things aren't happening again.

These photos were taken in May of 2003. As they were Navy Seals, it would seem plausible that this was a sanctioned activity to obtain info from suspected enemy. We'll probably never know for sure on that one. As most of our troops are in the reserve, it is safe to assume they joined to help finance their education and are mostly college students or professionals. They are primarily just good decent people (most of them parents) in a hellish situation. To judge a force of 138,000 based on the actions of fewer than 50 is ridiculous. If you want to wring your hands over war atrocites, why don't you take a look at the reports of what has been found in Fallujah?

http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=2303921
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/eveningnews/main657134.shtml

Or how about the slaughter of Margaret Hassan and the body of a blond woman that had been dismembered, disemboweled, and the face mutilated found in the streets of Fallujah?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6503251/

Not to mention the schools and mosques loaded with explosives and ammunition. If they blow up a school with kids in it and blame it on a US air attack then the world has more "evidence" of the inhumanity of Americans.

Look at both sides and keep things in perspective.

These photos were taken in May of 2003. As they were Navy Seals, it would seem plausible that this was a sanctioned activity to obtain info from suspected enemy. We'll probably never know for sure on that one. As most of our troops are in the reserve, it is safe to assume they joined to help finance their education and are mostly college students or professionals. They are primarily just good decent people (most of them parents) in a hellish situation. To judge a force of 138,000 based on the actions of fewer than 50 is ridiculous. If you want to wring your hands over war atrocites, why don't you take a look at the reports of what has been found in Fallujah?

http://www.thestar.co.za/index.php?fArticleId=2303921
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/eveningnews/main657134.shtml

Or how about the slaughter of Margaret Hassan and the body of a blond woman that had been dismembered, disemboweled, and the face mutilated found in the streets of Fallujah?

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6503251/

Not to mention the schools and mosques loaded with explosives and ammunition. If they blow up a school with kids in it and blame it on a US air attack then the world has more "evidence" of the inhumanity of Americans.

Look at both sides and keep things in perspective.

Hey, it's not like I'm trying to bash the US effort or anything. I want us to win, and think that the insurgency is made up of those unworthy to live. I'm just saying that I want our troops to uphold a standard of decency.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1102207849935_9/?hub=CTVNewsAt11
Despite what has happened in the fallout of the last such scandal, there is still abuse going on. Do these guys ever learn?
Actually, this begs another question to my mind: does our military attract only the bottom percentile of each graduating class? My biggest fear about them is that they do.

answer:
Army:yes
Marines:yes
Navy:sometimes
Aif Force: hardly ever
Coast Gaurd: who cares

Is anyone realy suprised by this?
No, of course not.

answer:
Army:yes
Marines:yes
Navy:sometimes
Aif Force: hardly ever
Coast Gaurd: who cares
I did know that the Navy and Air Force get the more intelligent soldiers. The Army will have to, as they have less of a role as a mere fighting force, and more of one as an occupation/administration force. As for the Marines, they can probably get away with it. They're the nation's premier fighting force, and their main purpose is to be the world's best killing machine. However, they have historically been great in counterinsurgency efforts, and this one is no exception. They were especially outstanding in the Philipines.

Hey, it's not like I'm trying to bash the US effort or anything. I want us to win, and think that the insurgency is made up of those unworthy to live. I'm just saying that I want our troops to uphold a standard of decency.
Actually there isn't any real "torture". If this "In the photos, SEALs are shown sitting on hooded and handcuffed prisoners. One prisoner has an automatic weapon pointed at his head and a thumb on his throat." is the worst of it you're grasping at straws.

I did know that the Navy and Air Force get the more intelligent soldiers. The Army will have to, as they have less of a role as a mere fighting force, and more of one as an occupation/administration force. As for the Marines, they can probably get away with it. They're the nation's premier fighting force, and their main purpose is to be the world's best killing machine. However, they have historically been great in counterinsurgency efforts, and this one is no exception. They were especially outstanding in the Philipines.

you need krazy people in the marines.
The AF is mostly of a technical nature
(although they have some badass special forces, that only makes up like 2% of the total AF)

Hey, it's not like I'm trying to bash the US effort or anything. I want us to win, and think that the insurgency is made up of those unworthy to live. I'm just saying that I want our troops to uphold a standard of decency.

It's a fact of life that when you have X number of people a certain percentage of them will behave in an unacceptable manner. I would imagine that the stress of a war situation would cause some people who would normally maintain, to "go over the edge" and do things they would never consider doing. Also, imagine how you would react when faced with barbarism of a magnitude rarely seen. I could never bring myself to spank my kids when they were growing up, but I know that some of the video I've seen from over there has made me want to inflict extreme pain and death on those animals. I can't imagine the mentality that would take pictures of suspected terrorists with their drawers off, though. Might be why they had no-brainer jobs as guards.

In addition, the fight for Fallujah, launched on November 8, has claimed the lives of more than 1 200 rebels, 39 US troops and five Iraqi soldiersAmazing, isn't it, that according to this article only insurgents and soldiers have been killed. No innocent Iraqis. Amazing accuracy, that.. :rolleyes:

"The face of Satan was here in Fallujah, and I'm absolutely convinced that that was true," said Lt. Col. Gareth Brandl, with the U.S. Marines. No, just humans... :( Why is it that so many people have such a problem accepting that humans are the cause and reason for this sort of thing? Blaming it on any supernatural agency only lessens the magnitude of the acts committed.

I know that some of the video I've seen from over there has made me want to inflict extreme pain and death on those animals.Well congratulations, you're reacting exactly as planned...

About the mentality of the soldiers and guards involved, I saw a news piece where GWB or one of his minions was basically trying to exonerate the troops involved at Abu Ghabi (sp?) by saying that they were uneducated po' white trash for the most part who had never been taught better and so should be given a break - wtf??? What sort of excuse is that? And talk about insulting your own people.

Actually there isn't any real "torture". If this "In the photos, SEALs are shown sitting on hooded and handcuffed prisoners. One prisoner has an automatic weapon pointed at his head and a thumb on his throat." is the worst of it you're grasping at straws. Torture is more than thumbscrews and the rack you know. In fact, the most effective torture is one that is more mental than physical. For example, these prisoners may have been threatened with being covered in pigs blood and buried under a sty for all we know. (Not saying they were but that it is one possibility) This would be an extreme form of psychological torture, particularly for a muslim, as it would (as far as I know) prevent their ascent to paradise.

Here is a dictionary.com definition of torture:

tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.

1. a Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2 Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3 Something causing severe pain or anguish.

tr.v. tor·tured, tor·tur·ing, tor·tures
1 To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
2 To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
3 To twist or turn abnormally; distort: torture a rule to make it fit a case

torture

\Tor"ture\, n. [F.,fr.L. tortura, fr. torquere, tortum, to twist, rack, torture; probably akin to Gr. tre`pein to turn, G. drechsein to turn on a lathe, and perhaps to E. queer. Cf. Contort, Distort, Extort, Retort, Tart, n., Torch, Torment, Tortion, Tort, Trope.] 1. Extreme pain; anguish of body or mind; pang; agony; torment; as, torture of mind. --Shak.

Ghastly spasm or racking torture. --Milton.

2. Especially, severe pain inflicted judicially, either as punishment for a crime, or for the purpose of extorting a confession from an accused person, as by water or fire, by the boot or thumbkin, or by the rack or wheel.

3. The act or process of torturing.

Torture, whitch had always been deciared illegal, and which had recently been declared illegal even by the servile judges of that age, was inflicted for the last time in England in the month of May, 1640. --Macaulay.

torture

n 1: extreme mental distress [syn: anguish, torment] 2: unbearable physical pain [syn: torment] 3: intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain; "an agony of doubt"; "the torments of the damned" [syn: agony, torment] 4: the act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean [syn: distortion, overrefinement, straining, twisting] 5: the act of torturing someone; "it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession" [syn: torturing] v 1: torment emotionally or mentally [syn: torment, excruciate, rack] 2: subject to torture; "The sinners will be tormented in Hell, according to the Bible" [syn: excruciate, torment]



http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=torture

So, as you see, torture is entirely possible in the photos you saw...

Amazing, isn't it, that according to this article only insurgents and soldiers have been killed. No innocent Iraqis. Amazing accuracy, that.. :rolleyes:

No, just humans... :( Why is it that so many people have such a problem accepting that humans are the cause and reason for this sort of thing? Blaming it on any supernatural agency only lessens the magnitude of the acts committed.

Well congratulations, you're reacting exactly as planned...

About the mentality of the soldiers and guards involved, I saw a news piece where GWB or one of his minions was basically trying to exonerate the troops involved at Abu Ghabi (sp?) by saying that they were uneducated po' white trash for the most part who had never been taught better and so should be given a break - wtf??? What sort of excuse is that? And talk about insulting your own people.

Torture is more than thumbscrews and the rack you know. In fact, the most effective torture is one that is more mental than physical. For example, these prisoners may have been threatened with being covered in pigs blood and buried under a sty for all we know. (Not saying they were but that it is one possibility) This would be an extreme form of psychological torture, particularly for a muslim, as it would (as far as I know) prevent their ascent to paradise.

Here is a dictionary.com definition of torture:

tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.

1. a Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2 Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3 Something causing severe pain or anguish.

tr.v. tor·tured, tor·tur·ing, tor·tures
1 To subject (a person or an animal) to torture.
2 To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another). See Synonyms at afflict.
3 To twist or turn abnormally; distort: torture a rule to make it fit a case

torture

\Tor"ture\, n. [F.,fr.L. tortura, fr. torquere, tortum, to twist, rack, torture; probably akin to Gr. tre`pein to turn, G. drechsein to turn on a lathe, and perhaps to E. queer. Cf. Contort, Distort, Extort, Retort, Tart, n., Torch, Torment, Tortion, Tort, Trope.] 1. Extreme pain; anguish of body or mind; pang; agony; torment; as, torture of mind. --Shak.

Ghastly spasm or racking torture. --Milton.

2. Especially, severe pain inflicted judicially, either as punishment for a crime, or for the purpose of extorting a confession from an accused person, as by water or fire, by the boot or thumbkin, or by the rack or wheel.

3. The act or process of torturing.

Torture, whitch had always been deciared illegal, and which had recently been declared illegal even by the servile judges of that age, was inflicted for the last time in England in the month of May, 1640. --Macaulay.

torture

n 1: extreme mental distress [syn: anguish, torment] 2: unbearable physical pain [syn: torment] 3: intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain; "an agony of doubt"; "the torments of the damned" [syn: agony, torment] 4: the act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean [syn: distortion, overrefinement, straining, twisting] 5: the act of torturing someone; "it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession" [syn: torturing] v 1: torment emotionally or mentally [syn: torment, excruciate, rack] 2: subject to torture; "The sinners will be tormented in Hell, according to the Bible" [syn: excruciate, torment]



http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=torture

So, as you see, torture is entirely possible in the photos you saw...

I think we're all perfectly capables humans (or related lifeforms) and can use an online dictionary.

Bush's new attorney general scares me more than anything else at the moment.

Enter Alberto Gonzales: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=241596&page=2

What part relates to what we're talking about.. oh oh, call on me...

I hate to say this but in the photos I've seen there really wasn't much wrong

some sailors possing with some POWs and one of them had a gun pointed at his head

but maybe I just havn't seen all the pictures

You don't see anything wrong with "holiday snaps" (so to speak) with guns pointed at prisoners' heads... :confused:

Under the Geneva Conventions - the US, UK and Iraq are state signatories - captured soldiers must be given food and clothing, and protected from violence, intimidation and "public curiosity".

It would seem that these troops are violating the Geneva convention...

And before you say it - even if the Iraqis do the same or worse, there is no excuse for this, especially if you are attempting to hold the moral high ground.