NationStates Jolt Archive

First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...

"6 million" is often used just as a nice round number. It has never been categorized as the exact amount.

Oh ... and nobody blames solely the Germans ... we blame the Nazis. Naziism is a political party that knows no national boundaries.

I dont think Nazism was the cause. In reality National Socialism is a form of government that encourages love of its nation and preaches the equality of all the economical classes in the nation hence the term "National Socialism" I think Hitlerism is more accurate to put the blame on....

Mmkay ... loving your nation is one thing ... but loving only the blue eyed white people of your nation is something else all together.

Has there ever been an instance of National Socialism not leading to ethnic cleansing problems?

First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...

True. I am however more annoyed that only the Jews are remembered for being exterminated by the Third Reich. What about all the homosexuals, gypsies, Slavs, Russians, social destitutes and the mentally or physically disadvantaged? Do these not merit a mention?

Lol. He's got you there. But on the other hand, maybe the serbs got into their bad habits during WW2.

True. I am however more annoyed that only the Jews are remembered for being exterminated by the Third Reich. What about all the homosexuals, gypsies, Slavs, Russians, social destitutes and the mentally or physically disadvantaged? Do these not merit a mention?

They are. THe Holocaust museum in New York has a whole section devoted to that. And what makes the Holocaust especially tragic is that more than 2/3 the current population of the Jews were killed.

They are. THe Holocaust museum in New York has a whole section devoted to that. And what makes the Holocaust especially tragic is that more than 2/3 the current population of the Jews were killed.

True, historians and museums do mention it. I mean more to do with the international psyche. Why do people act as if only the Jews were killed? This is important with regards to the policies of Israel.

the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews

I was wondering if you could share with us where it is exactly you got this ludicrous bullshit from?

True. I am however more annoyed that only the Jews are remembered for being exterminated by the Third Reich. What about all the homosexuals, gypsies, Slavs, Russians, social destitutes and the mentally or physically disadvantaged? Do these not merit a mention?

And members of the German opposition parties - the ones who didn´t bow to Nazi rule or didn´t make it out/ into a safe hiding palce in time.

One should also note, that a hughe number of the Jews exterminated have been GERMAN jews. Germany used to have a rather hughe jewish subculture.

One should also note, that anti-semitism was a rather "popular" thing at those times - everywhere where Jews lived. "Steamboat Willy" and other several works done by Disney have been labeled as anti-semitic, just to name a example.

First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...
ya but i think the question is, "how many of those countries exterminated their jewish population BEFORE they were invaded by germany?"

that the nazis could find collaborators who were willing to participate in the nazi program of extermination isnt all that surprising. the germans werent KIND to their occupied countries, it was go along or die. so some people who didnt have any love for their jewish neighbors participated and some looked the other way (to intervene was to die)

i DO think that the hatred of jews that was common in europe at that time contributed not so much to the killing of jews but to the not STOPPING of it. as i understand it, and my understanding is sketchy, public protests stopped the killing of the retarded. the people wouldnt stand for it. perhaps if EVERYONE had protested against the extermination of their jewish neighbors (although they were for the most part taken away and killed elsewhere with the people back home told they were sent to work camps)

but back to my main point. WERE THE OTHER COUNTRIES MENTIONED KILLING JEWS BEFORE THEY WERE OCCUPIED BY GERMANY?

I dont think Nazism was the cause. In reality National Socialism is a form of government that encourages love of its nation and preaches the equality of all the economical classes in the nation hence the term "National Socialism" I think Hitlerism is more accurate to put the blame on....
Well, Hitler was the inventor of National Socialism.

Well, Hitler was the inventor of National Socialism.

No he wasn't.

No he wasn't.
Yes he was.

When Hitler joined the Nazi party, it was already up and running, and had its program intact. He eventually won the leadership of the party by way of a brief power struggle with its founder. Hitler cannot take credit for either founding the party nor thinking up the ideology. You should do some reading on the subject before you chose to make such statements.

but back to my main point. WERE THE OTHER COUNTRIES MENTIONED KILLING JEWS BEFORE THEY WERE OCCUPIED BY GERMANY?

At least not state organized, but probably tolerated by local authorities. Violence against Jews has been a issue since the middle ages, especially in mostly catholic nations.

Hitler's National Socialism is neither national nor socialistic.

Most of the blame for Hitler's rise to power falls on the allied nations of World War I. Had Germany not been economically crushed, they wouldn't have turned to such a movement. People don't like to admit it, but the United States would have done the exact same thing in the exact same situation, as would any people. It's sociology. Therefore, Germany shouldn't be blamed.

Well, Hitler was the inventor of National Socialism.

oh my lord.....you need to go read a history book buddy.

Hitler's National Socialism is neither national nor socialistic.

Most of the blame for Hitler's rise to power falls on the allied nations of World War I. Had Germany not been economically crushed, they wouldn't have turned to such a movement. People don't like to admit it, but the United States would have done the exact same thing in the exact same situation, as would any people. It's sociology. Therefore, Germany shouldn't be blamed.

This is true. Hitler's policies could probably be better described as International Racialist Interventionism, or something like that.

Hitler's National Socialism is neither national nor socialistic.

Most of the blame for Hitler's rise to power falls on the allied nations of World War I. Had Germany not been economically crushed, they wouldn't have turned to such a movement. People don't like to admit it, but the United States would have done the exact same thing in the exact same situation, as would any people. It's sociology. Therefore, Germany shouldn't be blamed.


hmmm...I wonder though what a true National Socialist country would be like(maybe its a very good form of government) but people have to realize that any form of government can be racist and anti-semitic....to the masses National Socilaist means jew-hater...... :rolleyes:

hmmm...I wonder though what a true National Socialist country would be like(maybe its a very good form of government) but people have to realize that any form of government can be racist and anti-semitic....to the masses National Socilaist means jew-hater...... :rolleyes:

The masses are ignorant, and write things like "2 million Jews were killed by Poles" (view author of this thread) and "Hitler created National Socialism". Do the "masses" really count in any kind of intelligent discussion or debate?

Well, Hitler was the inventor of National Socialism.
No he wasnt.
Laughable that attribute him enough intellect to form a political ideology. He followed the minds of others, he was merely charismatic.

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...

As much as I hate to admit it, Britain should take some responsibility. If we had stood up to Hitler when he marched into the De-militarized Rhineland, the Anschluss with Austria, the Sudentenland, then the Holocaust might not have happened.

And Europeans don't hate Jews.

The people in the occupied countries killed Jews because they were under the occupation of the Nazis. If they didn't, then they would be killed, and the SS would have found someone else to do it for them...

At least not state organized, but probably tolerated by local authorities. Violence against Jews has been a issue since the middle ages, especially in mostly catholic nations.
yes there was
that being part of the problem of why more wasnt done to stop the holocaust
but its not the same as thinking it was the POLES idea to round up their jewish neighbors and kill every last one of them.

I was wondering if you could share with us where it is exactly you got this ludicrous bullshit from?

It's absolutely true, just do a little bit of research and you will find that the Polish, though certainly not all of them, exterminated several million people in the halocaust.

yes there was
that being part of the problem of why more wasnt done to stop the holocaust
but its not the same as thinking it was the POLES idea to round up their jewish neighbors and kill every last one of them.

Exactly. Anyhow, anybody who knows the subject knows full well that millions of Poles were dying in concentration camps along side their Jewish countrymen. Sorry, we were a little too busy fighting for our lives to be killing Jews. :rolleyes:
Also, if he actually took interest in the matter, he would see that Poland was a safe-haven of tolerance and stability for Jews since the 14th century. Which was most probably the reason Poland had the highest consentration of Jewish citizens of all the European countries before the war. But lets avoid facts, right? Spewing bullshit is so much more liberating. :rolleyes:

Founders of National Socialism:
General Karl Ernst Haushofer, a German geographer who exercised much influence in German foreign affairs.

The German editor and party leader Alfred Rosenberg formulated Nazi racial theories on the basis of the work of the Anglo-German writer Houston Stewart Chamberlain.(Rosenberg, isnt that a Jewish name?-no seriously)

National Socialism was similar in many respects to Italian fascism (see Fascism). The roots of National Socialism, however, were peculiarly German, grounded, for example, in the Prussian tradition of military authoritarianism and expansion; in the German romantic tradition of hostility to rationalism, liberalism, and democracy;

Source:Encarta.

It's absolutely true, just do a little bit of research and you will find that the Polish, though certainly not all of them, exterminated several million people in the halocaust.

I've done alot of research. This is the first time I've come across this idiotic piece of (German?) propaganda. How about you provide us with some proof?

Sorry, we were a little too busy fighting for our lives to be killing Jews.

Too right. The peoples of the lands held by the Nazis in WW2 did a great service in helping countries who weren't occupied (ask the old man across the road from me, he was in the tank corp in WW2 - He's Polish), and doing a lot of good for the resistance organisations in those occupied lands.

As much as I hate to admit it, Britain should take some responsibility. If we had stood up to Hitler when he marched into the De-militarized Rhineland, the Anschluss with Austria, the Sudentenland, then the Holocaust might not have happened.

And Europeans don't hate Jews.

The people in the occupied countries killed Jews because they were under the occupation of the Nazis. If they didn't, then they would be killed, and the SS would have found someone else to do it for them...

True, but they DID. Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? And there are many other countries who have been anti-semitic all throughout EUROPEAN history. Certainly, though, Europe was not the only place in which this happened, as we can see today. And by the way, thank you for pointing out that the people in the occupied countries had no choice. Far too many people do not realize that this fact, or the fact that not all Germans were anti-semitic are completely true.

First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...

Million and a half Jws?? What are you talking about? Janowska, Bergen-Belson, Aushwitz I and II, Birkenau, Warsaw, Buchenwald, Breendonck, Blechhammer, Dachau, Amersfoort, Mauthausen, Stutthof, Vught, Belzec, Chelmo, Treblinka (Treblinka was mostly for children), Majdanek, Sobibor... most concentration camps either located in Poland or Germany. But that wouldn't matter, they were all controlled by Nazi forces! 1 and a half million?? Are you angry that you just ran out of crack or something??

Hitler's National Socialism is neither national nor socialistic.

Most of the blame for Hitler's rise to power falls on the allied nations of World War I. Had Germany not been economically crushed, they wouldn't have turned to such a movement. People don't like to admit it, but the United States would have done the exact same thing in the exact same situation, as would any people. It's sociology. Therefore, Germany shouldn't be blamed.


I will admit that it was INDIRECTLY because of the League of Nations and all of the Economic strains forced on germant after WWI, and it is true that it would have happened in any country in the same position, but that does not mean that Germant should not be blamed. That is like if I got blackmailed for all my monkey and then I shot a man for bread, and I shouldn't have been blamed. Yes the League of Nations was indirectly the cause of it, but Germany, the Nazi's really, actually carried out the Genocide. And for the point of Jews were killed in Poland and Hungry e.t.c, the Genocides there were carried out by their local Nazi Party or by the ocupying SS oficers, so as everyone has said, we blame the NAzi's. Who actually carried out the actions. And do you really think that there was a huge giant American right wing conpiricy to add 300,000 deaths to the death total, please, I know that no goes around saying somthing cost $139.99, they say $140. Good reporting, you uncovered the biggest plot ever in history! :rolleyes: Go join the nutjobs that say smart bombs hit the Penagon on 9/11 and the idiots who say that JFK was assaisinated by Richard Nixon. :sniper:

get a life
:headbang:

When you get as high as 5.7 million, an extra 300,000 doesn't really mean anything. ONE innocent death is too many.

I've done alot of research. This is the first time I've come across this idiotic piece of (German?) propaganda. How about you provide us with some proof?

Read up a little ways; they had no choice! I am an American, I don't write German propaganda. The Poles didn't want to be killed, just the same as the Germans didn't want to be. There are plenty of stories where people who defied the halocaust were killed. My friend's grandmother was almost killed because she was German, and when she was six, she called Hitler stupid. One of the kids in her school overheard and told his father, who was a Nazi officer. My friend's family only escaped being made public examples because the underground smuggled them out of Germany. Such stories can be found all over the place. In conclusion, the Jews and others who were killed in the halocaust were not necessarily killed because their killers wanted to.

Lastly, (and I do apologize for already saying 'in conclusion') Poland really had a lot of Jews, so it make sense that they would have killed a high number. I suggest that you read 'Alicia: My Story' for an idea. I met the author, and she told me all about the Poles in her own country who were forced to kill their neighbors. Once again: they had no choice.

Once again: they had no choice.There were TONS of little things that people could do to save Jews. A factory worker didn't HAVE TO report Anne Frank's family to the Nazis for $1.40. Germans didn't HAVE TO actively find Jews in hiding to be killed. If they came out and publicly opposed Nazism, then yes--they would be screwed.

Lastly, (and I do apologize for already saying 'in conclusion') Poland really had a lot of Jews, so it make sense that they would have killed a high number. I suggest that you read 'Alicia: My Story' for an idea. I met the author, and she told me all about the Poles in her own country who were forced to kill their neighbors. Once again: they had no choice.

Poles did not kill Jews in Poland. Germans Nazis killed Jews in Poland. Are you aware of the fact that 4 million Poles died in Nazi concentration camps, or were simply randomly rounded up and executed in the streets? Having lost three-fourths of my own family to these events, I'm a bit of a nut for the subject. Never have I encountered any account of these "forced killings" which you speak of. But, speaking hypothetically, even if there were sporadic and isolated "forced killings", which is entirely possible, to claim that Poles killed 2 million Jews is simply ludicrous.

I will admit that it was INDIRECTLY because of the League of Nations and all of the Economic strains forced on germant after WWI, and it is true that it would have happened in any country in the same position, but that does not mean that Germant should not be blamed. That is like if I got blackmailed for all my monkey and then I shot a man for bread, and I shouldn't have been blamed. Yes the League of Nations was indirectly the cause of it, but Germany, the Nazi's really, actually carried out the Genocide. And for the point of Jews were killed in Poland and Hungry e.t.c, the Genocides there were carried out by their local Nazi Party or by the ocupying SS oficers, so as everyone has said, we blame the NAzi's. Who actually carried out the actions. And do you really think that there was a huge giant American right wing conpiricy to add 300,000 deaths to the death total, please, I know that no goes around saying somthing cost $139.99, they say $140. Good reporting, you uncovered the biggest plot ever in history! :rolleyes: Go join the nutjobs that say smart bombs hit the Penagon on 9/11 and the idiots who say that JFK was assaisinated by Richard Nixon. :sniper:

get a life
:headbang:

Germany should be blamed, to a point, but really, if you look at German history, the world should not have been surprised. Ever since the middle ages, nationalism has been bred into the Germans, or the Prussians more correctly. WWII was not the first time that the Germans united against some sort of a foe. Anti-semitism has always been strong until very recently, and naturally Hitler would have chosen the easiest target to unite Germany again. They have always chosen what was for the good of Germany/ Prussia, and anyone to blame their troubles on was considered better than no one. Still, I must state that a great deal of Germans did not stand behind Hitler, so clearly they were not all brainwashed as thoroughly as in the past.

Poles did not kill Jews in Poland. Germans Nazis killed Jews in Poland. Are you aware of the fact that 4 million Poles died in Nazi concentration camps, or were simply randomly rounded up and executed in the streets? Having lost three-fourths of my own family to these events, I'm a bit of a nut for the subject. Never have I encountered any account of these "forced killings" which you speak of. But, speaking hypothetically, even if there were sporadic and isolated "forced killings", which is entirely possible, to claim that Poles killed 2 million Jews is simply ludicrous.

Yeah, you're probably right, and I do disagree with that as well. I am not so stupid as to stubbornly stick by such statements. I think that the author of this thread used the number a bit incorrectly. The source of their information probably mentioned somewhere that that was the number killed in Poland. Also, someone else mentioned that those who killed the Jews were mostly Nazis. I have no doubt, by the way, that the Nazis in Poland might have become Nazis to save their own skins. I highly doubt that every single Nazi actually believed in the Nazi cause. If I have insulted you, I apologize, it was not my intention, I just wanted to help you to think more open mindedly. Living in California as someone who generally disagrees with all the liberals, it is something that I love to do! Please do not think that I am racist, I was simply having a bit of intellectual banter. :)

P.S. I am aware of all of the facts that you have stated. I would not have entered such a controversial thread blindly.

There were TONS of little things that people could do to save Jews. A factory worker didn't HAVE TO report Anne Frank's family to the Nazis for $1.40. Germans didn't HAVE TO actively find Jews in hiding to be killed. If they came out and publicly opposed Nazism, then yes--they would be screwed.

Oh, I totally agree with you, but honestly, we all say that we would do the right thing in such an event. I wonder if most of us have actually defied THAT kind of oppression? Fear makes people do exceedingly stupid things sometimes.

Just because they were killed in Poland, Hungary or Rumania does not mean those people are responsible. The nazis built their camps in those countries because they wanted their dirty work to be carried out off German soil. Germans still did most of the killing.
This sounds like an attempt by Germans to take responsibility off of themselves for the holocaust while not denying it happened. It is a slap in the face to the 3 million Polish Gentiles and millions of others who died in the holocaust as well as the Poles, Rumanians, Hungarians and others who rescued Jews, including the lady who hid one of my grandparents.

I will admit that it was INDIRECTLY because of the League of Nations and all of the Economic strains forced on germant after WWI, and it is true that it would have happened in any country in the same position, but that does not mean that Germant should not be blamed. That is like if I got blackmailed for all my monkey and then I shot a man for bread, and I shouldn't have been blamed. Yes the League of Nations was indirectly the cause of it, but Germany, the Nazi's really, actually carried out the Genocide.

Yes, the Nazis are to blame. Germany is not. It was merely the unfortunate circumstance that Nazism had to be born in Deutschland. By taking all of Germany's money, you forced us to shoot a man for bread, metaphorically. I sincerely think the world would be a much better place if the Central Powers won World War I. Anything seems better than where the allies let the world lead.

Everyone always remebers what the Germans did to jews, but not what the japanese did to out prisoners of war. starvation, torture, death, work..crucifixtion..Everything..The Japanese ere worse IMO than the Germans, to prisoners of war.

Everyone always remebers what the Germans did to jews, but not what the japanese did to out prisoners of war
Don't worry, I remember . . . I read a book about it and then saw a documentary about how the Japanese tested chemical weapons on the Chinese

First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...

Subtract Hitler and Nazi Germany from the equation as if they never existed.

Does the holocaust still happen?

End of debate.

Yeah, you're probably right, and I do disagree with that as well. I am not so stupid as to stubbornly stick by such statements. I think that the author of this thread used the number a bit incorrectly. The source of their information probably mentioned somewhere that that was the number killed in Poland. Also, someone else mentioned that those who killed the Jews were mostly Nazis. I have no doubt, by the way, that the Nazis in Poland might have become Nazis to save their own skins. I highly doubt that every single Nazi actually believed in the Nazi cause. If I have insulted you, I apologize, it was not my intention, I just wanted to help you to think more open mindedly. Living in California as someone who generally disagrees with all the liberals, it is something that I love to do! Please do not think that I am racist, I was simply having a bit of intellectual banter. :)

P.S. I am aware of all of the facts that you have stated. I would not have entered such a controversial thread blindly.

Ya, alright, no contest. ;)

Just because they were killed in Poland, Hungary or Rumania does not mean those people are responsible. The nazis built their camps in those countries because they wanted their dirty work to be carried out off German soil. Germans still did most of the killing.
This sounds like an attempt by Germans to take responsibility off of themselves for the holocaust while not denying it happened. It is a slap in the face to the 3 million Polish Gentiles and millions of others who died in the holocaust as well as the Poles, Rumanians, Hungarians and others who rescued Jews, including the lady who hid one of my grandparents.

Bullshit.

The Germans had a LOT of collaborateuers in the occupied nations. The French Vichy government assisted openly in the turning over of Jews to German authorities. There are alos a number of incidents of (among others) Polish citizens assisting the "Einsatzgruppen" in hunting down rebels or - in a number of cases - Jews. After the Russians freed a number of concentration camps they send the prisoners into the west, because "we don´t like Jews among us" (you might remember a similar scene in the Schindler´s List movie).


Suggesting anti-semitism is a German "virtue" alone is as absurd as your claim of "Germans trying to take responsibility off of themselves for the holocaust while not denying it happened", neither will the fact about the ethnic cleansing of German minorities in Hungary and Poland after WWII with around half a million people missing (go figure), nor the claim about the Russian Red Army mass rape, actually the largest mass rape in (modern) history. One evil does not make another evil less evil. If there is one nation which is damn open in straightforward about their past then it is the Germans. Stating that FACT that other people also killed Jews during the Holocaust or assisted in killing does not change a fact about who incited the whole thing.

The point is, the Holocaust - at the time it happened - was just the clymax of anti-semitic sentiment in the western world. To pick up your example, the Poles weren´t that happy with their Jews either, nor were the higher wealthy classes in the USA, in France or the UK. Read one of the latest reports on anti-semitism. You´ll notice were anti-semitism is quite a problem. Hint: I Eastern Europe.

Subtract Hitler and Nazi Germany from the equation as if they never existed.

Does the holocaust still happen?

End of debate.

No... although I bet someone could debate "yes," so that is very far from the end of the debate.

Hi!
everything u have listed was under Geman power / influence at the time of the Holo!! We all know figures are made to sound dramatic - but that is a hell of a lot of peoples lives still that were just taken for granted by the Nazis! Hitler was evil and deserves the blame!! thats in my opinion!!
:confused:

Lol. He's got you there. But on the other hand, maybe the serbs got into their bad habits during WW2.

You're thinking Croats, Serbs were the partisans, Croatia the collaborator state.

True, historians and museums do mention it. I mean more to do with the international psyche. Why do people act as if only the Jews were killed? This is important with regards to the policies of Israel.
Because it's an extremely sore point, especially for europe. After all, what happened to the jews in the holocaust was an event that differentiated only in magnitude from the stuff they had done to jews before.

Hitler's National Socialism is neither national nor socialistic.

Most of the blame for Hitler's rise to power falls on the allied nations of World War I. Had Germany not been economically crushed, they wouldn't have turned to such a movement. People don't like to admit it, but the United States would have done the exact same thing in the exact same situation, as would any people. It's sociology. Therefore, Germany shouldn't be blamed.
This was why the US(Woodrow Wilson) dropped most of it's reparations and urged the French and the Brits to do the same. But of course they didn't follow his advice, content instead to stay in their old continental wars rut.

1. there were more thsn 1.5 million jews inGermany in 1939. In 1945 there were less than 10,000. Either way it is genocide and i concur with the above that the nazi's and their collaberators were responsible. Without the nazis in the picture there would have been no holocaust.

1. there were more thsn 1.5 million jews inGermany in 1939. In 1945 there were less than 10,000. Either way it is genocide and i concur with the above that the nazi's and their collaberators were responsible. Without the nazis in the picture there would have been no holocaust.

Most German jews moved to Palastine way before the halocaust was in motion. The jews that suffered the most were Polish jews not German jews....

Mmkay ... loving your nation is one thing ... but loving only the blue eyed white people of your nation is something else all together.

Has there ever been an instance of National Socialism not leading to ethnic cleansing problems?

Yeah, In America...

Yeah, In America...
Dammit quit bringing up rational facts :p You're hampering their style.

all these people who say hitler didnt create national socialism are being extremely petty and are missing the point.
hitler did create national socialism as it came to be known. yes, he wasnt the person who originally had the idea, but he was attracted by it early on and took the party over, morphing it into his own creation. he was in fact the 5th member, and 6 months later the name was changed from the German Workers Party to National Socialist German Workers Party. at the same time hitler drafted the 25 point programme, the basis of NSDAP policy for years to come, and hitlers own personal opinions. then in 1921 he became leader and oversaw the bungled munich putsch. in prison hitler wrote mein kampf whilst the NSDAP dissolved. when he left prison, hitler refounded the party.
this shows that although he wasnt a 'founding father', he took what they envisaged and changed it into what it actually became.

and to the person that said 'youve got to read some history books' or whatever, yes you have, but then youve got to analyse the evidence and set it in context and come to your own opinion. there is no right or wrong, but obviously im right. tee hehe.

all these people who say hitler didnt create national socialism are being extremely petty and are missing the point.
hitler did create national socialism as it came to be known. yes, he wasnt the person who originally had the idea, but he was attracted by it early on and took the party over, morphing it into his own creation. he was in fact the 5th member, and 6 months later the name was changed from the German Workers Party to National Socialist German Workers Party. at the same time hitler drafted the 25 point programme, the basis of NSDAP policy for years to come, and hitlers own personal opinions. then in 1921 he became leader and oversaw the bungled munich putsch. in prison hitler wrote mein kampf whilst the NSDAP dissolved. when he left prison, hitler refounded the party.
this shows that although he wasnt a 'founding father', he took what they envisaged and changed it into what it actually became.

and to the person that said 'youve got to read some history books' or whatever, yes you have, but then youve got to analyse the evidence and set it in context and come to your own opinion. there is no right or wrong, but obviously im right. tee hehe.

Hitler took National Socialism and turned it into Hitlerism which is not in line with the real national socialist ideology....

When Hitler joined the Nazi party, it was already up and running, and had its program intact. He eventually won the leadership of the party by way of a brief power struggle with its founder. Hitler cannot take credit for either founding the party nor thinking up the ideology. You should do some reading on the subject before you chose to make such statements.
In 1919 he went to a gathering of the DAP, Deutsche Arbeiter Partei, who by then had some 50 members. Although officially they had over 500. Hitlers number when he joined was 555. In 1920 Hitler was dismissed from the military and now devoted all of his time to the party. Since february 1920 he helped work out the party programm and the party is renamed into NSDAP.
Do some reading before you make such statements.

First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...


I blame blind hatred and nationalism..and WWI

and I just a special on the Butcher of Leone and a couple other escaped Nazi war criminals..and those people were not being forced to do what they did they just did it because they knew they could.
This thread is ridicolous. Germans gassed Jews, not anybody else

all these people who say hitler didnt create national socialism are being extremely petty and are missing the point.
hitler did create national socialism as it came to be known. yes, he wasnt the person who originally had the idea, but he was attracted by it early on and took the party over, morphing it into his own creation. he was in fact the 5th member, and 6 months later the name was changed from the German Workers Party to National Socialist German Workers Party. at the same time hitler drafted the 25 point programme, the basis of NSDAP policy for years to come, and hitlers own personal opinions. then in 1921 he became leader and oversaw the bungled munich putsch. in prison hitler wrote mein kampf whilst the NSDAP dissolved. when he left prison, hitler refounded the party.
this shows that although he wasnt a 'founding father', he took what they envisaged and changed it into what it actually became.

and to the person that said 'youve got to read some history books' or whatever, yes you have, but then youve got to analyse the evidence and set it in context and come to your own opinion. there is no right or wrong, but obviously im right. tee hehe.

Errata: Hitler was the 55th member. The German Army (what remained of it) had sent him to evaluate it's threat. He liked the ideas, which correlated with his own, and joined.
Drexler made Hitler the head of propanganda in 1920, and drafted the twenty five points, with Drexler
Hitler succeeded Drexler in 1921.
The Munich Putsch was in 1923.
The party did not actually dissolve, though there were severe internal divisions.

Hitler took National Socialism and turned it into Hitlerism which is not in line with the real national socialist ideology....

what is 'real' national socialist ideology? because although ive been learning about weimar and nazi germany at school for five long, long years, we have never done anything about 19th century german politics. so im intriugued to learn. pure ignorance on my part.

I have heard frequent historical blunders here. When Hitler joined what became the National Socialist German Worker's Party in 1919, it was called the German Worker's Party. No Nationalism or Socialism involved. In the most technical sense Hitler did invent National Socialism, because he transformed what was a little-known fringe group into a far more radical fringe group willing to attempt a putsch in Bavaria four years later. The party that Hitler joined was not the Nazi party. Hitler did, with Mussolini, Wagner, and the Holy Roman Emperors as his philosophical mentors, invent Nazism as it existed in Germany. The entire cult of National Socialism was a careful plan by Hitler, who reasoned that the recipe of Rome accomplished through the implentation of covert barbarism would keep the masses fed and employed, his power source stable, and his goals accomplished. By 1936 less than one percent of Germany was unemployed.
Furthermore, the nations of eastern and central Europe deserve credit for their bloodwork during the Holocaust, but it would not have occurred without the help of their German overlords. Thinking it this way, if Hungary tried to murder Jews in the manner of the Holocaust, Britain and France would invade and stop it, because Hungary is a pitifully weak pygmy. But Germany was stronger than any country in Europe, even France. France and Britain knew this well, and they were still nauseous from fear of another Great War, and proceeded to avoid war with Germany at all costs, until Poland. I'd really like to know how Poland executed Jews themselves, considering nearly the entire nation was subjugated to political nothingness and a quarter of the population died.

Errata: Hitler was the 55th member. The German Army (what remained of it) had sent him to evaluate it's threat. He liked the ideas, which correlated with his own, and joined.
Drexler made Hitler the head of propanganda in 1920, and drafted the twenty five points, with Drexler
Hitler succeeded Drexler in 1921.
The Munich Putsch was in 1923.
The party did not actually dissolve, though there were severe internal divisions.

yep, i couldnt remeber exactly which member he was, i knew it had fives in it.

i would say they were very basic ideas myself. this was a very young party remember.

i was under the impression hitler drew the 25 point programme up himself.

i also think hitler took over from drexler, not suceeded.

yep, it was in 1923. sorry.

the party was on its knees, and although there must have been fragmented small groups, hitler reformed them when he got out of prison.

Additionally, the considerations of national hatred surely surpassed religious ones for Hitler. Forgot the Holocaust. 28 million Russians lay dead. The Ukraine was being crushed, and all of eastern Russia was hit with the heavy hand of Barbarossa. The casualty figure for Imperial Russia in WW1 was as staggering as had ever been had in the history of warfare, but Soviet Russia suffered more than twice as much in WW2. Why do we forget this? Well, the territorial ambitions and megalomania of Stalin as well as the atrocities perpetrated by Russian soldiers on their counteroffensive, just look at Nemmersdorf for example, was enough to quench any hope of sympathy from the other world. There is a reason that Russia has barely increased in population over the past century in comparison to the population boom in the rest of the world, and that is Germany. We really should hear about the eastern front in history class more.

yep, i couldnt remeber exactly which member he was, i knew it had fives in it.
Like I said on the previouse page. His number when he joined up was 555. The party faked a greater number of members then they realy had.

Like I said on the previouse page. His number when he joined up was 555. The party faked a greater number of members then they realy had.


agreed.

what is 'real' national socialist ideology? because although ive been learning about weimar and nazi germany at school for five long, long years, we have never done anything about 19th century german politics. so im intriugued to learn. pure ignorance on my part.

Nationalism:

loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others

Socialism:

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

combine the two...and boom your done(its got nothing to do with hating jews)

Nationalism:

loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others

Socialism:

any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

combine the two...and boom your done(its got nothing to do with hating jews)
Not in the name definition but names are not always representative of true ideologies

Not in the name definition but names are not always representative of true ideologies

just what i was about to say!

i know what nationalism and socialism are, but the nazis werent as simple as that. i know that if you join the words 'nationalism' and 'socialism' together, its not about anti semeticism. but the nazis were about hating the jews, because this was hitlers agenda, and he used the party to get his views across.

just what i was about to say!

i know what nationalism and socialism are, but the nazis werent as simple as that. i know that if you join the words 'nationalism' and 'socialism' together, its not about anti semeticism. but the nazis were about hating the jews, because this was hitlers agenda, and he used the party to get his views across.

I believe you asked me what the "true" ideology of National Socialism was...not Hitlers National Socialism

Poles did not kill Jews in Poland. Germans Nazis killed Jews in Poland. Are you aware of the fact that 4 million Poles died in Nazi concentration camps, or were simply randomly rounded up and executed in the streets? Having lost three-fourths of my own family to these events, I'm a bit of a nut for the subject. Never have I encountered any account of these "forced killings" which you speak of. But, speaking hypothetically, even if there were sporadic and isolated "forced killings", which is entirely possible, to claim that Poles killed 2 million Jews is simply ludicrous.

Indeed. I lost almost an entire half of my family as well, so I'm also kind if a "nut" on the subject.

Poles didn't kill Jews, especially by choice. It was a "kill or be killed" situation. When a Polish soldier was forced to round up his friends, neighbors, of even relatives I highly doubt he did so on his own.

I believe you asked me what the "true" ideology of National Socialism was...not Hitlers National Socialism
But even taken the name definition I am betting that just fit the largest “focus” of the original group not an all encompassing definition of motive.
Very rarely is the whole groups (even the pure one) solely defined by their name.

The name is a focus not definition of range

(Think umbrella ... the name as the tip but by no means the whole thing)

But even taken the name definition I am betting that just fit the largest “focus” of the original group not an all encompassing definition of motive.
Very rarely is the whole groups (even the pure one) solely defined by their name.

The name is a focus not definition of range

(Think umbrella ... the name as the tip but by no means the whole thing)

Well maybe the world should smarten up and start naming things what they actually are.

I believe you asked me what the "true" ideology of National Socialism was...not Hitlers National Socialism

was there any other national socialists apart from NSDAP that werent anti semetic?

Not denying the Holocaust and not saying the Germans were great people (my granddad has been in hiding cause he escaped after being made a prisoner of war) but I've read a disturbing fact and since they had listed official records I've done some digging and it seems to be true, too. According to various official records (such as Red Cross records, Chambers Encyclopaedia, World Almanac) the numbers in the following articles are right, so I'm very much in doubt now. The issue is that there were only about 6½ million Jewish people in the German occupied territories, of which about 6 million had died, leaves ½ million people... yet they have managed to get X times as many jews into Israel, not even ten years later ? How'd they do that ?

You have to be open-minded to read this, I'm not saying this is entirely true as I was not there myself and I cannot possibly get a full picture of it, but the numbers I checked are actually existing numbers on record and they make me think... and think again... :confused:

Did six million really die - Richard E. Harwood (http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd01.html)

...
Very disturbing... if this is true then it must be the worst case of history falsification ever ? :(

Not denying the Holocaust and not saying the Germans were great people (my granddad has been in hiding cause he escaped after being made a prisoner of war) but I've read a disturbing fact and since they had listed official records I've done some digging and it seems to be true, too. According to various official records (such as Red Cross records, Chambers Encyclopaedia, World Almanac) the numbers in the following articles are right, so I'm very much in doubt now. The issue is that there were only about 6½ million Jewish people in the German occupied territories, of which about 6 million had died, leaves ½ million people... yet they have managed to get X times as many jews into Israel, not even ten years later ? How'd they do that ?

You have to be open-minded to read this, I'm not saying this is entirely true as I was not there myself and I cannot possibly get a full picture of it, but the numbers I checked are actually existing numbers on record and they make me think... and think again... :confused:

Did six million really die - Richard E. Harwood (http://www.ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd01.html)

...
Very disturbing... if this is true then it must be the worst case of history falsification ever ? :(

try telling that to the zionist drones that run America right now and they will throw you in jail and labal you a "terrorist"

Well maybe the world should smarten up and start naming things what they actually are.
So very rarely can you fit a whole explanation or intent in a few words

Originally Posted by Stansburg
First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...





-WTF?
-Why would any1 stick up for the nazis?
-6 million is close enough
-other countries may have killed jews but it was under Nazi influence
-even if the nazis killed 1 1/2 million instead of 6 that is still to much life senselessly wasted
-nazis killed 6 million jews, 17 million russians, 600 thousand french (ehh nevermind who cares about the french), 400,000 americans, 366,000 brits and also people from other occupied territories like greece, denmark, etc

Bunch of russian jews, as well as the fact that the counts are almost certainly undervalued. Quite a few american jews migrated too.

Just for all those who say that Jews use guilt over the Holocaust as a way of justifying Israel, or anything connecting Hitler and Zionism- you do understand that not all of the Jews who survived the camps went to Israel, right? Another thing, most of the Jews killed were fom shetles in Poland. Besides having no effect on Germany whatsoever prior to the Holocaust, those people were so isolated, that they probably didn't give much thought to Zionism in the first place. I admit that I am Jewish, and that I give support to Israel, but only because their actions are no worse than those of most other nations, and that there is no reason to hold them to some sort of special standards. Don't ask should Israel exist- it does exist, deal with it.

Just for all those who say that Jews use guilt over the Holocaust as a way of justifying Israel, or anything connecting Hitler and Zionism- you do understand that not all of the Jews who survived the camps went to Israel, right? Another thing, most of the Jews killed were fom shetles in Poland. Besides having no effect on Germany whatsoever prior to the Holocaust, those people were so isolated, that they probably didn't give much thought to Zionism in the first place. I admit that I am Jewish, and that I give support to Israel, but only because their actions are no worse than those of most other nations, and that there is no reason to hold them to some sort of special standards. Don't ask should Israel exist- it does exist, deal with it.

Its existance shouldnt depend on my American tax dollers. If you suport America blindly suporting israel then go away and live/fight there. You and your way of thinking is what is destroying America and ultimately the American economy will go into another depression as a result of you people... America should stop supporting all foreign countries and try fixing the problems within America.

I'm sorry if I came off so strongly. First, I can't really comment on the idea that the United States should be completely isolationist- while we shouldn't have gone to Iraq, there is nothing wrong with defending other nations in general. While I am liberal, I was more addressing this to liberals who make statements like they aren't anti-semeitc, they just hate zionists- most jews give some support to Israel, for good reason, and to say that you only hate Jews who support Israel is really to hate most Jews.

Just for all those who say that Jews use guilt over the Holocaust as a way of justifying Israel, or anything connecting Hitler and Zionism- you do understand that not all of the Jews who survived the camps went to Israel, right? Another thing, most of the Jews killed were fom shetles in Poland. Besides having no effect on Germany whatsoever prior to the Holocaust, those people were so isolated, that they probably didn't give much thought to Zionism in the first place. I admit that I am Jewish, and that I give support to Israel, but only because their actions are no worse than those of most other nations, and that there is no reason to hold them to some sort of special standards. Don't ask should Israel exist- it does exist, deal with it.

- Israel exists alright, so we'll have to deal with it. I'm fine with that. Just wish both Palestinians as well asIsraelis would quit fighting and get on with it.

- As to presuming Polish Jews living in slums didn't give much thought about Zionism: I think you're wrong there. They had synagogs <sp> there, the whole nine yards.

- As to using guilt over the Holocaust, I don't know, I don't generalize, I have Jewish friends and they don't. But occasionally I hear the fuzz going on about how the Palestines kill the Israelis and then I point them to the fact that the Israelis are no saints either, that their forefathers killed off tens of thousands of Kaananites <sp> to conquer the promised land. Palestines are the direct descendants of the Kaananites. This happened thousands of years ago, isn't it bloody time to start shaking hands instead of killing eachother ? Shouldn't peace be a much better thing, then argueing about who's right or wrong ? And why can't two peoples live in one country with equal say in what's to happen ?'

Basically I don't like what's happening there and where two fight two are to blame. But instead of pointing fingers they should start coming up with solutions. If I'd have a say in it I would send a huge UN force to Israel and they wouldn't get outta there untill people would for sure quit fighting.

First of all 6 million jews didnt die, the accurate number(and even israel acknowledged this) is 5 million and seven hundred thousand(still high but with a differance of 300,000 made up deathes) Second of all the halocaust wasnt a german effort it was a EUROPEAN effort, the Hungarians killed about 900,000 jews, the polish were responsible for about 2 million jews, the romanians killed about 30,000 jews. Also Russians that were recruited into the SS killed about 500,000 jews in concentration camps in latvia and ukraine(these camps had very little german presence) also you have to consider that even though the SS is supposedly responsible for the german participation of the halocaust, in this army only 4 out of 10 soldiers were german(they had volunteers from fascist italy, vichy france, den mark,norway, the balkan muslims etc) the worst thing the germans actually completely participated in was Aushwitz and another camp whose name I currently forgot. So if you do the research the germans killed about a million and a half jews....

P.S: Europe(excluding Britain and Sweden) should take the blame for the halocaust and not only the germans.....if europeans didnt hate jews so much then the halocaust wouldnt gave been so drastic with high death rates...

Oh I'm sorry, my mistake, the numbers make such a huge difference, especially when an entire race was nearly wiped out.

I think someone's feeling guilty...

Don't worry, we won't blame you like those nasty other religions did for killing 6 million of us, when two of our guys killed one of yours two thousand years ago.

Oh I'm sorry, my mistake, the numbers make such a huge difference, especially when an entire race was nearly wiped out.

I think someone's feeling guilty...

Don't worry, we won't blame you like those nasty other religions did for killing 6 million of us, when two of our guys killed one of yours two thousand years ago.


Christ WAS the son of God you know. And to refuse him is to refuse God. And since jewish people instigated the death of Christ they have been hated by the rest of the world and as a result millions of them have been killed(and I for one dont think that this was a Coincidence) because you have to understand if you turn away from God's judgement and denounce him by instigating the murder of his own son then God will turn away from you people and never help you again regardless of whether or not millions of your people are dying.

Christ WAS the son of God you know. And to refuse him is to refuse God. And since jewish people instigated the death of Christ they have been hated by the rest of the world and as a result millions of them have been killed(and I for one dont think that this was a Coincidence) because you have to understand if you turn away from God's judgement and denounce him by instigating the murder of his own son then God will turn away from you people and never help you again regardless of whether or not millions of your people are dying.

Whether Christ was the son of god is debatable to what you believe in. However, you're claiming to be "holier than thou" but saying it's okay to murder 6 million people?

Plus, you're totally ignoring the history. The "Jews" that you refer to was the Jewish police that existed back then which consisted of a few jerks that the Romans threatened to kill if they didn't rule and rat out their people. It wasn't the Jews. Why don't you hate Italians instead?

And like it or not, Christians and Jews share the same god, they just worship Him in a different way. Also like it or not, Christianity began and basically still is a sect of Judaism. So excuse me if I'm going to hell for being Jewish, but there is no way that you can come up with an excuse for the massacre of a people.

And if you try to, I think YOU are the one going to hell.

Let me eat my latkes in peace.

Whether Christ was the son of god is debatable to what you believe in. However, you're claiming to be "holier than thou" but saying it's okay to murder 6 million people?

Plus, you're totally ignoring the history. The "Jews" that you refer to was the Jewish police that existed back then which consisted of a few jerks that the Romans threatened to kill if they didn't rule and rat out their people. It wasn't the Jews. Why don't you hate Italians instead?

And like it or not, Christians and Jews share the same god, they just worship Him in a different way. Also like it or not, Christianity began and basically still is a sect of Judaism. So excuse me if I'm going to hell for being Jewish, but there is no way that you can come up with an excuse for the massacre of a people.

And if you try to, I think YOU are the one going to hell.

Let me eat my latkes in peace.

Pagan Romans did the dirty work, the jews played a "charles manson" sort of role by extremely encouraging it. Regardless, if the jews didnt want Christ dead then the Romans wouldnt have done the killing.

Pagan Romans did the dirty work, the jews played a "charles manson" sort of role by extremely encouraging it. Regardless, if the jews didnt want Christ dead then the Romans wouldnt have done the killing.

Did you even read my post? I thought I explained to you who "the jews" were.

And anyway, crap done by a few people 2000 years ago justifies mass genocide now?

Don't try and tell me Christians have never done anything wrong. In fact, some of the ones who claim to be the holiest spend their time raping little boys. Is that okay?

Christ WAS the son of God you know. And to refuse him is to refuse God. And since jewish people instigated the death of Christ they have been hated by the rest of the world and as a result millions of them have been killed(and I for one dont think that this was a Coincidence) because you have to understand if you turn away from God's judgement and denounce him by instigating the murder of his own son then God will turn away from you people and never help you again regardless of whether or not millions of your people are dying.

One question for you then hot-shot. Why didn't Christ fulfill the Messianic prophecies if he was the Son of God and Messiah as you claim?

(Seriously doubts RWA will even know what the prophecies are, so...good luck with that)

Second note: Christ preached that God loved all, even those who cursed him. Why would he turn away from a people who solely believed in God himself, instead of God+human "God"?

Actually, the Hungarian Regent, Horthy, did everything in his power to stop the Jews from being killed. That's why Hitler tried to assassinate him twice. So don't knock the Admiral. He was probably a better man than any of you could ever hope to be.

And RWA, I could present a full argument to you, but you'd reply in a one sentence non-sequiter. So, I'll content myself with 'you are an insult to all conservatives everywhere.'

In fact, if you follow this (http://www.catholicleague.org/piusxii_and_the_holocaust/hungary.htm) link, you'll find the blame for the dead Jews in Hungary rests fairly solidly on the shoulders of the Germans.

One question for you then hot-shot. Why didn't Christ fulfill the Messianic prophecies if he was the Son of God and Messiah as you claim?

(Seriously doubts RWA will even know what the prophecies are, so...good luck with that)

Second note: Christ preached that God loved all, even those who cursed him. Why would he turn away from a people who solely believed in God himself, instead of God+human "God"?

It is because that Christ preached love for all that the jewish leadership hated him(the kingdom of israel was an ancient jewish kingdom that preached their superiority over all other races on the planet and Christ's teachings of love for all wouldnt go too well with their extreme racist policies) Christ is a reflection of God and like I said when the jewish people rejected him they rejected God. Your only way to salvation is to convert to Christianity and/or to ask nay beg the lord to forgive your people for what they did to Christ.

It is because that Christ preached love for all that the jewish leadership hated him(the kingdom of israel was an ancient jewish kingdom that preached their superiority over all other races on the planet and Christ's teachings of love for all wouldnt go too well with their extreme racist policies) Christ is a reflection of God and like I said when the jewish people rejected him they rejected God. Your only way to salvation is to convert to Christianity and/or to ask nay beg the lord to forgive your people for what they did to Christ.

Well, screw you, because God already told me that I was cooler than you.
Yeah, God and I are tight.

So nyah.

*mocking RWA, not actually serious*

It is because that Christ preached love for all that the jewish leadership hated him(the kingdom of israel was an ancient jewish kingdom that preached their superiority over all other races on the planet and Christ's teachings of love for all wouldnt go too well with their extreme racist policies) Christ is a reflection of God and like I said when the jewish people rejected him they rejected God. Your only way to salvation is to convert to Christianity and/or to ask nay beg the lord to forgive your people for what they did to Christ.
God loves all, or so I'm told, so why should I, or anyone else, have to become Christian in order for for my eternal soul to be saved from damnation?

God loves all, or so I'm told, so why should I, or anyone else, have to become Christian in order for for my eternal soul to be saved from damnation?

God did love all including the ancient jewish people....before they betrayed him.

God did love all including the ancient jewish people....before they betrayed him.

So generations afterwards still get the blame?

When did God tell you this?

God did love all including the ancient jewish people....before they betrayed him.
The only problem I have with this statement is that God did love all. As the Jewish and Christian God is one and the same, merely altering at the time of the birth of Jesus, why would he now continue to blame those who could have had no effect on the events of the past.

God loves all, or so I'm told, so why should I, or anyone else, have to become Christian in order for for my eternal soul to be saved from damnation?
God does love all people, however he cannot stand sin. So if you die without accepting God's gift of Jesus' death to cleanse you of your sins you will die with sin still on your soul. If you still have sin on you, you cannot be in God's prescence, thus no heaven for. Hell is not necesarily a bad place. There will probably not be torture or heat like people think. It is just complete and utter seperation from God. Which you (and all who do not accept God's gift) should not mind seeing as how you refused him in this life. Why would you want to spend eternity in the prescence of someone you rejected? Why would God want to spend eternity in the prescence of someone who rejected him?

God does love all people, however he cannot stand sin. So if you die without accepting God's gift of Jesus' death to cleanse you of your sins you will die with sin still on your soul. If you still have sin on you, you cannot be in God's prescence, thus no heaven for. Hell is not necesarily a bad place. There will probably not be torture or heat like people think. It is just complete and utter seperation from God. Which you (and all who do not accept God's gift) should not mind seeing as how you refused him in this life. Why would you want to spend eternity in the prescence of someone you rejected? Why would God want to spend eternity in the prescence of someone who rejected him?

Okay, guess I'm going to Hell then.

Free barbeque! Anyone wanna come with?

So generations afterwards still get the blame?

When did God tell you this?

The lord didnt have to tell me....he showed me through all the facts

Year and region where Jews
have been expelled since 250 A.D.

YEAR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . PLACE

250 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Carthage
415 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alexandria
554 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocese of Clement (France)
561 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Diocese of Uzzes (France)
612 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Spain
642 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Visigoth Empire
855 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
876 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sens
1012 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1182 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1276 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Upper Bavaria
1290 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - England
1306 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1322 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France (again)
1348 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Switzerland
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hielbronn (Germany)
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Saxony
1349 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1360 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1370 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Belgium
1380 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1388 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Germany
1394 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1420 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lyons
1421 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Fribourg
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Zurich
1424 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cologne
1432 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Savoy
1438 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1439 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Augsburg
1442 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1444 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1446 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - France
1453 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Breslau
1454 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1462 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1483 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Mainz
1484 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1485 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vincenza (Italy)
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Spain
1492 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Italy
1495 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1496 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Portugal
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nuremberg
1498 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Navarre
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenberg
1510 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prussia
1514 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Strasbourg
1515 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1519 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Regensburg
1533 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1541 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Naples
1542 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague & Bohemia
1550 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Genoa
1551 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria
1555 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pesaro
1557 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1559 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Austria
1561 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague
1567 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurzburg
1569 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Papal States
1571 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Netherlands
1582 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hungary
1593 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Brandenburg, Austria
1597 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Cremona, Pavia & Lodi
1614 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Frankfort
1615 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Worms
1619 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kiev
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Ukraine
1648 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Poland
1649 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Hamburg
1654 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1656 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lithuania
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Oran (North Africa)
1669 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1670 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Vienna
1712 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Sandomir
1727 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1738 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Wurtemburg
1740 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Little Russia (Beylorus)
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Prague, Bohemia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Slovakia
1744 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Livonia
1745 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moravia
1753 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Kovad (Lithuania)
1761 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bordeaux
1772 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Poland/Russia)
1775 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Warsaw
1789 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Alcace
1804 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages in Russia
1808 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Villages & Countrysides (Russia)
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Lubeck & Bremen
1815 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria
1820 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bremen
1843 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russian Border Austria & Prussia
1862 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Area in the U.S. under Grant's Jurisdiction
1866 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Galatz, Romania
1880s - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Russia
1891 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Moscow
1919 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bavaria (foreign born Jews)
1938-45 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Nazi Controlled Areas
1948 -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Arab Countries

go ahead and read up some of your history and you shall see that this is legitimate.

It is because that Christ preached love for all that the jewish leadership hated him(the kingdom of israel was an ancient jewish kingdom that preached their superiority over all other races on the planet and Christ's teachings of love for all wouldnt go too well with their extreme racist policies) Christ is a reflection of God and like I said when the jewish people rejected him they rejected God. Your only way to salvation is to convert to Christianity and/or to ask nay beg the lord to forgive your people for what they did to Christ.
Somehow I think it has more to do with:
A) Him ignoring the rules of the Jewish face
B) Him making massive claims (Son of God, etc) without fulfilling Jewish prophecies/conditions upon which his claim was based.
C) Potential threat to Jewish power in the region, especially as their relationship with the Romans was especially turbulent at that time.

Considering I'm Catholic, I don't think my people ever did anything to Christ thank you very much. The Jews never preached superiority, they merely claimed that it was their God given right to control the area they lived in...something Jesus also believed in. The Jews were no more racist than any other ancient people.

Jesus preached that God loved all, and salvation was his gift to all. Have you ever even read what Christ himself taught? His teachings had nothing to do with what Christianity has since become, forced conversions, forced rules upon private individuals, etc. Honestly, you need to read up a bit.

Oh, I'm not denying that Jews were kicked out mostly wherever they went.

But did you ever consider that was because people THOUGHT that God hated us so they kicked us out?

And you're not answering my original question which is that genocide now is acceptable? And that the Holocaust was right? How can you claim to be holy when you are saying that innocent people being murdered is okay?

Total fucking hypocrisy.

God does love all people, however he cannot stand sin. So if you die without accepting God's gift of Jesus' death to cleanse you of your sins you will die with sin still on your soul. If you still have sin on you, you cannot be in God's prescence, thus no heaven for. Hell is not necesarily a bad place. There will probably not be torture or heat like people think. It is just complete and utter seperation from God. Which you (and all who do not accept God's gift) should not mind seeing as how you refused him in this life. Why would you want to spend eternity in the prescence of someone you rejected? Why would God want to spend eternity in the prescence of someone who rejected him?
But I didn't kill Jesus, so how is that my sin? Surely the only sins I can be blamed for are the sins that I commit during my lifetime? Also, are those people who never hear the word of God, through the Christian teachings, also banished to hell because as they know nothing of the death of Jesus they could not accept that gift?

But I didn't kill Jesus, so how is that my sin? Surely the only sins I can be blamed for are the sins that I commit during my lifetime? Also, are those people who never hear the word of God, through the Christian teachings, also banished to hell because as they know nothing of the death of Jesus they could not accept that gift?


The lord has no obligation to be "fair" to anyone.

But I didn't kill Jesus, so how is that my sin?
That's not your sin. That's actually noone's sin besides those who killed him (the Jewish leaders, the Roman leaders, and the guys who actually hammered him to the cross). Your sins are the sins you commit in your life.

Also, are those people who never hear the word of God, through the Christian teachings, also banished to hell because as they know nothing of the death of Jesus they could not accept that gift?
Now this is a really good question and one I have wondered about myself. I've heard a couple theories about it. One is they are first judged based on how they lived their life, then depending on whether they are good or bad, they go either to Purgatory, and eventually Heaven after they are cleansed of their sins , or Hell. Another is that God reveals himself to all people through nature and it is up to the individual then whether or not they accept the fact that a god exists, if they do they go to Heaven if not they go to Hell. Personally I think this one is kind of strange. I think that the first one would be most correct, as it sounds the most fair, but honestly I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Personally I think rwa is ignorant of what his religion is fundamentally about. If I were god he would be in a world of pain

But that’s ok I have to forgive ignorance not condemn it (note agnostic now but still think that is a good philosophy)

The lord has no obligation to be "fair" to anyone.
Ohhh back to the vengeful god pov again … the one with the big ego that needs groveling in order to feel good about himself/herself

Personally I think rwa is ignorant of what his religion is fundamentally about. If I were god he would be in a world of pain

But that’s ok I have to forgive ignorance not condemn it (note agnostic now but still think that is a good philosophy)

Your judgement will come... heretic

Your judgement will come... heretic
So will yours … even if I don’t believe in him I still follow his practice of caring and tolerance …

Me thinks by the bible that is more important then following obscure rules :) (that’s even assuming an afterlife not something I am willing to assume … so kind of you threatening me with the Easter bunny but oh well)

Your judgement will come... heretic


AAAAAAHHH! THOU ART A BLASPHEMER! AAAHHHHH! BURN IN HELL YOU SINNER!

There is no way to have a decent arguement with a Christian who proselytizes on a message board and believes Jews are going to hell (though it is amusing and funny-this may be fun).

Your judgement will come... heretic

i think someone needs a nap

It is because that Christ preached love for all that the jewish leadership hated him(the kingdom of israel was an ancient jewish kingdom that preached their superiority over all other races on the planet and Christ's teachings of love for all wouldnt go too well with their extreme racist policies) Christ is a reflection of God and like I said when the jewish people rejected him they rejected God. Your only way to salvation is to convert to Christianity and/or to ask nay beg the lord to forgive your people for what they did to Christ.
you are aware that the romans cruxified christ, right?

you are aware that the romans cruxified christ, right?
Probably not

(not arguing on the truth rather I doubt he/she would look for thus forstated truth)

i think someone needs a nap

or a hug

or a hug
As long as its not from the same sex … me has this feeling that he/she wouldn’t much appreciate that

As long as its not from the same sex … me has this feeling that he/she wouldn’t much appreciate that

Yeah, homocooties are forbidden.

Yeah, homocooties are forbidden.
Lol yup
Though I shouldn’t make any assumptions maybe he/she is not anti homosexual

We don’t know

That's not your sin. That's actually noone's sin besides those who killed him (the Jewish leaders, the Roman leaders, and the guys who actually hammered him to the cross). Your sins are the sins you commit in your life.
would it really be a sin for the people who nailed him to the cross?

they're just doing their job, i doubt they enjoyed it.

if anything, the people who gave him (and others) an unfair trial should be in trouble. and the jewish leaders did not kill him. the romans did.

Another is that God reveals himself to all people through nature and it is up to the individual then whether or not they accept the fact that a god exists, if they do they go to Heaven if not they go to Hell. Personally I think this one is kind of strange. I think that the first one would be most correct, as it sounds the most fair, but honestly I don't think anyone knows for sure.
but the thing is that in christianity, it's not enough to accept that a god may exist. you have to accept a specific god and his son.

but the thing is that in christianity, it's not enough to accept that a god may exist. you have to accept a specific god and his son.
To be fair most main stream religions have this point of view (possibly - the son) unliest you are into diesm or one of the other non main streams where there is just "god" in whatever form he presents himself to you

It is because that Christ preached love for all that the jewish leadership hated him

The Jewish leadership didn't hate him. In fact, very few people know that when Jesus came before the Pharisees, they actually warned him that because he stood out as a figure that may plan a revolt against Rome and they told him that he should either flee, hide, or stand out less.

(the kingdom of israel was an ancient jewish kingdom that preached their superiority over all other races on the planet

Pure ignorance. The Jews didn't think they were superior to everyone else, as Judaism teaches that all men were created equally in God's image. They didn't preach superiority, and proselytizing goes against Judaism, but apparently you love to proselytize.

and Christ's teachings of love for all wouldnt go too well with their extreme racist policies)

Ignorance again. If you really wanted to look at racism, look at how Nero purged Christians and used them literally as torches at his parties.

Christ is a reflection of God and like I said when the jewish people rejected him they rejected God.

Jesus never specifically said that he was God. Paul did. The religion of Jesus is vastly different than the religion of Paul (or is it John, I forget). The Jewish people simply don't believe that Jesus was God, as when of the most important parts of Judaism, and something God specifically told the Jews, was that they should never worship man as a God.

Your only way to salvation is to convert to Christianity and/or to ask nay beg the lord to forgive your people for what they did to Christ.


You should probably quit proselytizing. It's really annoying.

Pagan Romans did the dirty work, the jews played a "charles manson" sort of role by extremely encouraging it. Regardless, if the jews didnt want Christ dead then the Romans wouldnt have done the killing.
have you read the bible?

especially the part where jesus causes an uproar in the temple and starts throwing shit around?

that would have been enough for the romans to arrest and execute him. they didn't need people starting shit like that.

Jesus never specifically said that he was God. Paul did. The religion of Jesus is vastly different than the religion of Paul (or is it John, I forget). The Jewish people simply don't believe that Jesus was God, as when of the most important parts of Judaism, and something God specifically told the Jews, was that they should never worship man as a God.
it's paul. john was actually supposed to have met jesus.

also, the council of nicea voted on jesus' divinity in 300 (something) CE.

have you read the bible?

especially the part where jesus causes an uproar in the temple and starts throwing shit around?

that would have been enough for the romans to arrest and execute him. they didn't need people starting shit like that.
Though by today’s standards
Public disturbance having a death penalty attached to it lol

To be fair most main stream religions have this point of view (possibly - the son) unliest you are into diesm or one of the other non main streams where there is just "god" in whatever form he presents himself to you
buddhism? hindhuism?

some rather mainstream religions where belief in specific gods is not necessary for salvation... or not a reason to be punished eternally.

Though by today’s standards
Public disturbance having a death penalty attached to it lol
they gave the death penalty for stealing...

wasn't jesus suppsoed to have been executed alongside two thieves? or at least one thief...

they gave the death penalty for stealing...

wasn't jesus suppsoed to have been executed alongside two thieves? or at least one thief...
Yup if I remember my bible right (read it so many times … and slightly drunk ) so someone look it up :) hehe

The horrible truth is that our civilized society where we don’t persecute minorities is a thin veneer covering the darker side that dominates so much of us. Political Correctness is a pretty new phenomenon and hasn’t made the rounds of this wide world of ours yet. You don’t have to go very far to find signs of racism in whatever society you live in, some more than others. What Hitler did was take the racist coffee shop talk of the grumbling xenophobes and take it to the sociopathic maximum. That’s what made Hitler so dangerous: he completely followed his beliefs without reservation, however repugnant the reasonable person would find them.

Nazi Germany was not only the architect of the Holocaust it carried it out. Yes it had eager recruits from other nations help in some of the nations it conquered, but it was mostly the political paramilitaries, the SS, and the party officials that made it all happen. Let’s face it the whole anti-Semitism thing was damn old by the time of WWII and even the Holocaust hasn’t quelled it.

A lot of people still argue about whether or not it happened or not (sort of like arguing over whether the Earth is round or not). There is some debate about the exact number that is merited and some that is not. The 6 million number is a magic bullet that was tagged on by some survivors and has taken on a life of its own. We don’t have the exact number and it could be a few million less or maybe even more. The fact that most people bringing up the numbers game are Nazi sympathizers makes it impossible for serious scholars to approach the topic without the same stigma being attached to them. It is a forbidden topic of research.

But let’s be honest, anti-Semitism was all the rage in the time of Hitler’s Germany. Hitler talked about Chamberlain being a guy he could do business with because Chamberlain was heavily anti-Semitic himself. De Gaulle may have been an opportunist French leader who liked to play fast and loose when rewriting History, but he was also very anti-Semitic. Time magazine made Hitler the man of the year, knowing what it did about this guy. The death camps were a well kept secret but everything else he did wasn’t completely unpopular. It should also be remembered that in Germany a huge amount of German soldiers and citizens were executed or jailed for failing to follow orders that they found insane (ie the Holocaust) and there was a Resistance movement even in Germany. Many were just too scared to do anything, knowing that any resistance would result in them on a meat hook (often literally). These are things that are not widely reported though because they get in the way of painting the German people as all being equally responsible.

they gave the death penalty for stealing...

wasn't jesus suppsoed to have been executed alongside two thieves? or at least one thief...
Yes, according to the Bible he was crucified next to two thieves.

Your judgement will come... heretic
Sounds like you need to calm down some. If people don't agree with you that is not the best way to handle it. Just let it go relax, come back when you have something good to say.

Time magazine made Hitler the man of the year, knowing what it did about this guy. The death camps were a well kept secret but everything else he did wasn’t completely unpopular.

Time magazine clearly stated they did not support Hitler or his policies. They chose him because Hitler undoubtly had the largest influence on the world that year. Time's Man of the Year was not intended to be an award, although society morphed it into that. It is a statement of who has had the largest impact on society.

I find it apalling that high school history courses will go into detail about the Holocaust, but ignore the Armenian genocide of 1915-17 where 1.5 million died (the Turkish government still denies it occured). and rarely mention Stalin's engineered famine that killed millions of Ukrainians. To treat the Holocaust as a singular incident does not accurately portray that massive genocides occured all over Europe in this period. Instead of focusing on the Holocaust, they should try teaching the broader history of why all these events occured instead of writing it off as Hitler being a madman who controlled his people.

This is hair-splitting.

Germans were responsible for the holocaust which claimed many millions of innocent lives, during the Second World War. I challenge you to deny the veracity of this last statement - and to substantiate your claims. History is on the side of my claim, therefore the onus is upon those who would claim otherwise to fully illustrate their argument, IMO.

It's funny no one remembers how bad jews would also rip people off in the market place....

It's where the term "jewed" comes from...

Its existance shouldnt depend on my American tax dollers. If you suport America blindly suporting israel then go away and live/fight there. You and your way of thinking is what is destroying America and ultimately the American economy will go into another depression as a result of you people... America should stop supporting all foreign countries and try fixing the problems within America.What about all the tax dollars and funding sent to other countries undeserving of it? Besides which at this point we could stop funding them and they would survive perfectly well but then we would have less control over how they reacted to the shit the palistinians pull. It would make for some interesting middle eastern times.

Though by today’s standards
Public disturbance having a death penalty attached to it lol
Not in some muslim countries, specifically Iran.

It's funny no one remembers how bad jews would also rip people off in the market place....

It's where the term "jewed" comes from...
:D Hey, I admire the wily bastards. World's longest lasting capitalist group :p

It's funny no one remembers how bad jews would also rip people off in the market place....

It's where the term "jewed" comes from...
Ahh the perfect excuse for attempted genocide

Whatever.... its no use argueing with jews and zionists because they will always see themselves as the rightous ones and the innocent victims in everything.

Whatever.... its no use argueing with jews and zionists because they will always see themselves as the rightous ones and the innocent victims in everything.

Perhaps, but that doesn't stop you from presenting informed and logical arguments.

Whatever.... its no use argueing with jews and zionists because they will always see themselves as the rightous ones and the innocent victims in everything.

Now you have condeded because you realize that logic and facts trump faith and opinion.

Now you have condeded because you realize that logic and facts trump faith and opinion.

Something your people should have realized 2000 years ago...

Originally Posted by Jewmany
Now you have condeded because you realize that logic and facts trump faith and opinion.



Something your people should have realized 2000 years ago...

Wow, what a short term memory you have.

1. Why don't you try to use facts instead of mere rhetoric to back up your arguement?
2. Are you an anti-semite?

Wow, what a short term memory you have.

1. Why don't you try to use facts instead of mere rhetoric to back up your arguement?
2. Are you an anti-semite?

There's that word again. :rolleyes:

3. Using facts and logic, rather than rhetoric, your faith, and your opinion, can you rebut may claims that I made when I took apart one of your proselytizing rants piece by piece?

3. Using facts and logic, rather than rhetoric, your faith, and your opinion, can you rebut may claims that I made when I took apart one of your proselytizing rants piece by piece?

I didn't write any "proselytizing rants". Please review the thread before accusing me of such things.

I wasn't talking about you; I was talking about Right Wing Bomber.

Whatever.... its no use argueing with jews and zionists because they will always see themselves as the rightous ones and the innocent victims in everything.
Just don't try to kill them though.

You all can't handle the truth but I'll give it to you anyway.
Who was responsible for the holocaust?

1. Germany
2. Vatican
3. Russia
4. France
5. Britain
6. Poland
7. The United States of America
8. Canada
9. China
10. Japan
11. Switzerland
12. Belguim
13. Netherlands
14. Spain
15. Portugal
16. all the nations of eastern europe
17. Denmark
18. All of Latin America
19. All capitalists
20. Every man, woman, and child in Europe and North America at the time.
21. Let's not forget Yasser Arafat who basically the equivalent of an intern to Hitler in his younger days.
22. Speaking of Arafat, it should be noted that the arabs were routing for Hitler during World War II.
23. The Jews themselves cause they could have seen it coming but did nothing til it was too late.

But I seriously doubt you can handle this.

You all can't handle the truth but I'll give it to you anyway.
Who was responsible for the holocaust?

1. Germany
2. Vatican
3. Russia
4. France
5. Britain
6. Poland
7. The United States of America
8. Canada
9. China
10. Japan
11. Switzerland
12. Belguim
13. Netherlands
14. Spain
15. Portugal
16. all the nations of eastern europe
17. Denmark
18. All of Latin America
19. All capitalists
20. Every man, woman, and child in Europe and North America at the time.

But I seriously doubt you can handle this.

Could if … um you know had some … um what are they called

Oh yeah
Sources


Or do you like making pretty, unsubstantiated clams

Could if … um you know had some … um what are they called

Oh yeah
Sources


Or do you like making pretty, unsubstantiated clams
I am sorry but these are not unsubstantiated claims. Please spell the word right, it is claims not clams. Clams are those things from the sea that you eat. Claims are things that you argue.
These claims have been vouched for the governments in question as said governments have taken responsibility for their roles in the Holocaust, except the US and middle eastern nations that is.

There's blame to go around for all of WW2 and the Holocaust. If the rest of Europe hadn't been so stupid, Hitler probably wouldn't have gotten nearly as much power as he did, and if the United States intervened with what Japan was doing, it could've helped also. Because the U.S.A. and Europe both ignored Japan's invasions, anti-Semitism, Hitler's violations of the Treaty of Versailles, etc., the minor tumor of Facism in areas throughout the world that had a chance to be stopped turned an advanced cancer that really hurt the world.

I am sorry but these are not unsubstantiated claims. Please spell the word right, it is claims not clams. Clams are those things from the sea that you eat. Claims are things that you argue.
These claims have been vouched for the governments in question as said governments have taken responsibility for their roles in the Holocaust, except the US and middle eastern nations that is.
Again sources
And I apologize word got the best of me

(and might want to look up irony)
If you want to be technical you misspelled Belgium … you spelled it Belguim
Also Europe is supposed capitalized

(I can be a spelling/grammar Nazi too)

But anyways that is a side note back to the topic … for which I hope you have sources for

Yaaa, poor, poor Jews. The whole world hates them and wants to destroy them. They are the only ones that suffered and died in concentration camps. All of world history pivots around the sick anti-semitism of all those closet nazis who refuse to acknowledge the Jews as special people with special privileges. :rolleyes:

Yaaa, poor, poor Jews. The whole world hates them and wants to destroy them. They are the only ones that suffered and died in concentration camps. All of world history pivots around the sick anti-semitism of all those closet nazis who refuse to acknowledge the Jews as special people with special privileges.

It's worthless to take apart your bitterly sarcastic remarks, though one thing that caught my eye was the fact that you think Jews think they were the only ones that suffered.

I can be sarcastic too:

So that's why in siddurim (prayer books), for mourning prayers for the Holocaust specifically, it specifically mentions Jews, gays, gypsies, etc. that need to be mourned.

So that's why in the Holocaust museum in D.C. there are large sections dedicated to people who died other than Jews, and archives of what they went through too.

So that's why people who helped the Jews and other in the Holocaust, only to be sacrificed themselves, are fondly remembered as heroes.

Something your people should have realized 2000 years ago...

Well I think you should have pulled your head out your ass 2000 years ago, but that's just me.

Can't you just accept that there are different religions and maaaayyybe, just maaayyybe we can let each other live in peace without burning each other/accusing each other of witchcraft, having our holy dudes rape little boys, and attempt to massacre each other multiple times?

It's worthless to take apart your bitterly sarcastic remarks, though one thing that caught my eye was the fact that you think Jews think they were the only ones that suffered.

I can be sarcastic too:

So that's why in siddurim (prayer books), for mourning prayers for the Holocaust specifically, it specifically mentions Jews, gays, gypsies, etc. that need to be mourned.

So that's why in the Holocaust museum in D.C. there are large sections dedicated to people who died other than Jews, and archives of what they went through too.

So that's why people who helped the Jews and other in the Holocaust, only to be sacrificed themselves, are fondly remembered as heroes.Those Goyim just don't undertand, do they?

Well I think you should have pulled your head out your ass 2000 years ago, but that's just me.

Can't you just accept that there are different religions and maaaayyybe, just maaayyybe we can let each other live in peace without burning each other/accusing each other of witchcraft, having our holy dudes rape little boys, and attempt to massacre each other multiple times?


heh....I like pissing you angry jews off. Makes my day ;)

Those Goyim just don't undertand, do they?

Did that have a positive or a negative connotation?

heh....I like pissing you angry jews off. Makes my day

Why don't you answer my questions that I posed to you earlier?

Why don't you answer my questions that I posed to you earlier?

huh what questions?

1. Why don't you try to use facts instead of mere rhetoric to back up your arguement?
2. Would you consider yourself an anti-semite?
3. Using facts and logic, rather than rhetoric, your faith, and your opinion, can you rebut my claims that I made when I took apart one of your proselytizing rants piece by piece?

As much as I hate to admit it, Britain should take some responsibility. If we had stood up to Hitler when he marched into the De-militarized Rhineland, the Anschluss with Austria, the Sudentenland, then the Holocaust might not have happened.
History is written by the victor...

Technically, the blame should lie with the European powers that split Germany apart after WWI. We like to deride Germany today for its early invasions, but ignore the fact that many of them were justifiable.

The Rhineland, for example, was German territory that they were basically forced to give up at the end of WWI. The French wanted a buffer zone, and expected the Germans to stay out of their own territory forever...something that simply wasn't going to happen. The Sudetenland was also a justifiable invasion. We look at it as an example of "German aggression" today, but ignore the fact that the area was an 11,000 square mile section of Germany, populated by Germans, which was stripped away from Germany and given to Czechs as "punishment" at the end of WWI. Even the invasion of Poland was justifiable...nearly all of what we today consider to be northern Poland was a part of Germany prior to the end of WWI.

It's easy to sit back today and say that the "appeasers" let the Germans invade all of these poor innocent countries, but the reality is that most people simply saw the Germans as re-assembling a nation that had been broken up by corrupt politicians a few decades earlier. Lost to history books today is the fact that there was a lot of sympathy for the plight of the Germans and their fragmented nation prior to the Second World War, and the fact that a LOT of people saw these invasions as a way to "right an old wrong".

Popular global opinion really didn't swing against the Nazi's until they invaded the low countries and revealed that they planned on doing far more than restoring their own borders.

Can't answer some simple questions, eh? Oh well.

Can't answer some simple questions, eh? Oh well.

oh for christ's sake.

First of all i wasnt anti-semetic in the past....until i started to talk to the jewish people that live around my area. From my personal experiance most of them are extremely rich and materialistic people who only care about themselves and of course money. I only have one "sort of" jewish friend(hes like 1/4 jewish so i dont know if you can call him a jew)

And I simply dont feel like going pages back to see what you wrote just so I can counter your views.

Why do people act as if only the Jews were killed?
Because they lost the largest group. It was a big blow to the Jewish population. Also, Jews have laways been discriminated against and killed.

Nazis were fascist Germans. German ancestors were blond-haired and blue-eyed. Aryans were actually from India.

If you want people to take you seriously, learn to spell.

First of all i wasnt anti-semetic in the past....until i started to talk to the jewish people that live around my area. From my personal experiance most of them are extremely rich and materialistic people who only care about themselves and of course money. I only have one "sort of" jewish friend(hes like 1/4 jewish so i dont know if you can call him a jew)

It’s truly unfortunate that you feel that way. Do you really think you can just an entire group of people accurately based on a few people in your community alone? I know a lot of really materialistic Christians, and I don’t judge Christians based on just a few. It is extremely irrational to be anti-Semetic because of a few Jews you don’t like.

Technically, the blame should lie with the European powers that split Germany apart after WWI. We like to deride Germany today for its early invasions, but ignore the fact that many of them were justifiable.

The Rhineland, for example, was German territory that they were basically forced to give up at the end of WWI. The French wanted a buffer zone, and expected the Germans to stay out of their own territory forever...something that simply wasn't going to happen. The Sudetenland was also a justifiable invasion. We look at it as an example of "German aggression" today, but ignore the fact that the area was an 11,000 square mile section of Germany, populated by Germans, which was stripped away from Germany and given to Czechs as "punishment" at the end of WWI. Even the invasion of Poland was justifiable...nearly all of what we today consider to be northern Poland was a part of Germany prior to the end of WWI.



This is all completely wrong. Germany was not split apart after WWI. What actually happened was Alsace-Lorraine was returned to france ( it was ceded to gemany as a consequence of the franco-prussian war.) The Rhineland was always part of germany and continued to be so after WWI but was however demilitarized as part of the Versailles Treaty. So what? Germany was bound by the treaty for good reason. It's not like they reaped no benefits from it, and hitler's "occupation" - which was in fact a thumbing of the nose a versailles - was unjustified and unneeded.

As to hitler's other pre-poland "adventures".

Austria was never historically part of germany, and nor was the sudentenland. To assert so is false. There were no historical reasons for there annexation, and nor can they be viewed as a restoration of the pre-WWI conditions.

As to your assertation about Poland. I assume you are talking about the Danzig Corridor. (Poland of course having been moved 100 miles west after WWI, so of course the new norther part is now where german territory used to be). While there might be some justification of that view, it can only be accepted insofar as people do not accept the legtimacy of the polish state. When Poland was "resurrected" after WWI, that was the sea access it gained. Big deal, hitler had complete access to it through the free city, and treaties.

Germany was the complete aggressor.

Who cares about the fine details. As fars as I, and the majority of the world are concerned, the Germans were responsible for the halocaust. It doesn't matter what we see when we look back now, but the fact remains that Germans were the primary perpertrators of the largest scale murder in history.

One should also note, that a hughe number of the Jews exterminated have been GERMAN jews. Germany used to have a rather hughe jewish subculture.


Umm not to discount this, but yea Germany had a huge Jewish subculture, but most German Jews moved out of the region before they started the mass killings because they were in the mist of it and could feel the hatred growing. Most of the Jews that were killed were in Poland.

It’s truly unfortunate that you feel that way. Do you really think you can just an entire group of people accurately based on a few people in your community alone? I know a lot of really materialistic Christians, and I don’t judge Christians based on just a few. It is extremely irrational to be anti-Semetic because of a few Jews you don’t like.
It's not irrational, rather it's a display of ignorance. Feel sorry for him.

At least not state organized, but probably tolerated by local authorities. Violence against Jews has been a issue since the middle ages, especially in mostly catholic nations.


Actually, the jews have been persecuted since the times of the roman empire. Then, when the christians began to break away from the main jewish beliefs, the Jews began to persecute them, and then causing the romans to persecute the christians. So that is where a lot of the anti-semitisim began, and it just continued to grow as the two religions continued to clash.

This is all completely wrong. Germany was not split apart after WWI. What actually happened was Alsace-Lorraine was returned to france ( it was ceded to gemany as a consequence of the franco-prussian war.) The Rhineland was always part of germany and continued to be so after WWI but was however demilitarized as part of the Versailles Treaty. So what? Germany was bound by the treaty for good reason. It's not like they reaped no benefits from it, and hitler's "occupation" - which was in fact a thumbing of the nose a versailles - was unjustified and unneeded.

As to hitler's other pre-poland "adventures".

Austria was never historically part of germany, and nor was the sudentenland. To assert so is false. There were no historical reasons for there annexation, and nor can they be viewed as a restoration of the pre-WWI conditions.

As to your assertation about Poland. I assume you are talking about the Danzig Corridor. (Poland of course having been moved 100 miles west after WWI, so of course the new norther part is now where german territory used to be). While there might be some justification of that view, it can only be accepted insofar as people do not accept the legtimacy of the polish state. When Poland was "resurrected" after WWI, that was the sea access it gained. Big deal, hitler had complete access to it through the free city, and treaties.

Germany was the complete aggressor.
It was still Britain and France's fault that it happened. Had they not acted like whiny little children and demanded extreme reparations after WW1 which was started buy a Kaiser, not a democratically elected government, the Wiemar Republic would not have collapsed enough that Hitler's rhetoric could have gained him the power that it did. If he hadn't come to power WWII would most likely have been fought against the Russians with the Germans on our side.

right wing america, why didn't you respond to my corrections to your assertions about the role of the jewish people in the crucifixion of jesus? dont' want your bubble burst?

It was still Britain and France's fault that it happened. Had they not acted like whiny little children and demanded extreme reparations after WW1 which was started buy a Kaiser, not a democratically elected government, the Wiemar Republic would not have collapsed enough that Hitler's rhetoric could have gained him the power that it did. If he hadn't come to power WWII would most likely have been fought against the Russians with the Germans on our side.


Britain forgave the bulk reparations in the 20s. France reduced her demands likewise after a brief occupation of the Rhineland. By the late twenties the only reparations left were those that went to reply the US for its usurious war loans. In the words of Calvin Coolige: "They bought the money didn't they."

If there is a bad actor from this perspective, it is the US that refused to forgive loans/made bad loans to the Weimar republic. (Indeed the US relied upon the french and british to act as a debt collector in this respect, further driving german resentment.)

After the 1929 stock collapse and the 1930 bank failures, the US refused to issue any more loans to the Wiemar and on top of the called many of the outstanding loans that it had written, thus cuasing economic chaos similar to that of the imeadiate post war period. This is what gave Hitler his opportunity to rise to power.

Of course, on of Hitlers first act was to repudiate all foreign loans, so US insistence upon repayment was phyric at best.

Additionally, the actions of the US financial community was used by Hitler as anti-jewish propaganda, essentially blaming a conspiracy of international jewish bankers for Germany's trouble. This is somewhat ironic considering the anti-semitism of many US financial institutions during the pre-war era.

In any event, the root causes of world war II are far deeper than just a financial crises or redrawing the map of Europe. You can't just point the finger to one event and say:"there, that's what started it all." The cultural aspect has a lot to do with it as well.

Certain Germans WERE solely responsible for the Holocaust. Other Germans were responsible for ALLOWING the Holocaust to happen.

Everything else is an exercise in truly, and I do mean TRULY - tasteless verbal sparring & hair-splitting that attempts to minimize the vast scope of this colossal tragedy by indulging in morbid tallies.

This is an event well-documented and still within living memory. It may seem abstract to some, and Hell, I'll admit I weary at the idea of still more documentaries on the subject - but if it weren't for the sort of dunderheaded, gruesome bean-counters that insist on constantly nitpicking the numbers as presented, perhaps there'd be less of a need to revisit that dark chapter in History. Perhaps we could MOVE ON with matters pertaining more directly with the present-day.

*rambles on to self, teeth gritted in simmering rage*

This is all completely wrong. Germany was not split apart after WWI. What actually happened was Alsace-Lorraine was returned to france ( it was ceded to gemany as a consequence of the franco-prussian war.) The Rhineland was always part of germany and continued to be so after WWI but was however demilitarized as part of the Versailles Treaty. So what? Germany was bound by the treaty for good reason. It's not like they reaped no benefits from it, and hitler's "occupation" - which was in fact a thumbing of the nose a versailles - was unjustified and unneeded.

As to hitler's other pre-poland "adventures".

Austria was never historically part of germany, and nor was the sudentenland. To assert so is false. There were no historical reasons for there annexation, and nor can they be viewed as a restoration of the pre-WWI conditions.

As to your assertation about Poland. I assume you are talking about the Danzig Corridor. (Poland of course having been moved 100 miles west after WWI, so of course the new norther part is now where german territory used to be). While there might be some justification of that view, it can only be accepted insofar as people do not accept the legtimacy of the polish state. When Poland was "resurrected" after WWI, that was the sea access it gained. Big deal, hitler had complete access to it through the free city, and treaties.

Germany was the complete aggressor.

Wrong. First, I never said a word about Alsace-Lorraine, and neither did the Germans until they began their all-out invasion of France. Historically the region isn't tied to either country, and but for a few quirks of history it might have been a seperate nation today.

Second, the Treaty of Versailles was an adolescent attempt at "revenge" that placed unreasonable restrictions on Germany (most historians today do not blame WWI on Germany, they just had the poor luck to be on the losing side). The expectation the Germans would accept a permanent loss of military control over the Rhineland was unrealistic...it would be like telling Britain that they cannot place any military in Wales. Either a nation has control of its lands or it doesn't, but the Allies attempted to create a state of limbo that was bound to fall.

Austria: The Austrians are a Germanic peoples, and prior to WWII most Austrians considered themselves to be a part of "German Europe". While we call it an "invasion", the simple fact is that 97+% of Austrians VOTED to join with Germany prior to the invasion. Even subtracting out the fraud and calculating in the people who weren't allowed to vote (Jews, Gypsies), most independent estimates today state that over 80% of the Austrian peoples wanted a unification with Germany.

Sudentenland: The Sudetenland has been Germanic since Celtic prehistory, and the slavic Czechs only began moving in during the 1200's. In 1526 the Sudetenland came under the auspices of the Bohemian Crown, and they thus became part of the "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" until 1806, and of the German Confederation from 1815 to 1866. In 1848 the Sudeten Germans were among those who elected members of the first German parliament which met in the Church of St. Paul in Frankfurt. Personally, I would say that there WAS a solid historical stance for the Germans claiming the Sudetenland as a portion of Greater Germany.

Poland: Reread what you wrote and tell me how that is fair. Poland, for all practical purposes, was the equivalent of Israel in pre-WWII Europe. It was a nation of foreign peoples built on land stolen from another people by foreign do-gooders who thought that this was a "fair" solution. By your own admission, most of Poland was German land that was appropriated and given away when Poland was "moved". It's easy for you to say "big deal" today, but to the German peoples living in those lands it was a VERY big deal when their lands and towns were taken away from their homeland and given to a nation with which they shared few historical or lingual connections. From their perspective, the German army was a force of liberation, not invasion.

Hitler was a psychopath, there is little doubt of that, but some of his early territorial acquisitions, while maligned today, do in fact have legitimate historical basis. If he hadn't been hell bent on killing off the Jews and taking over the world, Germany would be a much larger, and far more powerful, nation today.

Also Danzig is a German territory(by taking it away from the Germans the allies spilt Germany into two sections and indirectly gave the Germans a legitimate reason to invade Poland.....stupid allies :rolleyes: )

oh for christ's sake.

First of all i wasnt anti-semetic in the past....until i started to talk to the jewish people that live around my area. From my personal experiance most of them are extremely rich and materialistic people who only care about themselves and of course money. I only have one "sort of" jewish friend(hes like 1/4 jewish so i dont know if you can call him a jew)

And I simply dont feel like going pages back to see what you wrote just so I can counter your views.

"and of course, money?" WTF?

If you truly talked to all the Jews in your area, then yes, the Jews in your area are asshats. Does that still give you the right to call ALL Jews materialistic?

How old are you? 5?

I'm Jewish and I'm not rich at all, nor do I give a rat's ass about moolah. So you know what? You can take your blind, ignorant, hill billy, bible thumping, boy raping self and go to what you believe is hell.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You refuse to answer the questions I gave you earlier and yet you continue to argue with no evidence to back you up. Give up. You've already lost all your credibility by being so incredibly close minded and ignorant.

Poland: Reread what you wrote and tell me how that is fair. Poland, for all practical purposes, was the equivalent of Israel in pre-WWII Europe. It was a nation of foreign peoples built on land stolen from another people by foreign do-gooders who thought that this was a "fair" solution.
By your own admission, most of Poland was German land that was appropriated and given away when Poland was "moved". It's easy for you to say "big deal" today, but to the German peoples living in those lands it was a VERY big deal when their lands and towns were taken away from their homeland and given to a nation with which they shared few historical or lingual connections. From their perspective, the German army was a force of liberation, not invasion.

You are obviously completely ignorant of European history. Allow me to help you with this.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/eceurope/poland9801018small.gif

This is a map of Poland a thousand years ago. Notice that these lands which you claim were "stolen" from Germany were part of the original Polish homeland. Due to dynastic struggles, Poland fell apart a couple of centuries later. Eastern Pomerania was annexed by the Teutonic Order, Western Pomerania was eventually incorporated into Brandenburg. Note that Silesia became a part of Bohemia, which is the modern day Czech Republic. The Hapsburgs eventually inherited the Bohemian crown, and Silesia along with it. However, over all these centuries, the majority of Silesians were Poles, then Czechs and Moravs, and only then Germans. Poland reconstructed in the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. At the end of the 18th century (you know, when the American revolution happened) it looked like this:

http://www.euratlas.com/big/1700big.jpg

Note that throughout all this time, eastern Pomerania (including Danzig) was part of Poland. Also note that Silesia was still a part of Bohemia, not Prussia. Infact, Prussia didn't get ahold of Silesia until the 1800s In the 1790s, Prussia, Austria, and Russia invaded and conquered Poland.

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/eceurope/polpart.gif

The Poles were then forced to fight for over 100 years to regain independence. They finally did at the end of WW1. The territories they gained they had to fight for, against the Germans in the west and the Bolsheviks in the east. The country they managed to rebuild looked like this:

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/histatlas/eceurope/poland192238.gif

You claim that:

It was a nation of foreign peoples built on land stolen from another people by foreign do-gooders who thought that this was a "fair" solution.

My reply to you is that if you don't know what the hell you're talking about, then keep your mouth shut.

one thing that seems to be a major feature throughout this thread is the idea that, contrary to the opinion of the original statement, the 'germans' were responsible for the holocaust. this is extremely unfair. the culprit was fascism. the holocaust had its roots in the working classes of europe and therefore the holocaust could have happened ANYWHERE. in the UK, we had the British Union of Facists which were getting quite popular in the middle of the depression in the thirties. just ask my grandad, who watched the blackshirts march up and down in front of the city hall where i live in norwich, norfolk. just unfortunately for the germans (not to mention the jews, homosexuals et al), the economic depression was so severe and possibly because there was a stronger history of anti semiticism (during the crusades, the german contingents used the holy war against the muslims as an excuse to carry out genocide against jews in their own lands) fascism took a stronger hold. combine it with hitlers legitimate policies that provided an answer to the economic problems, and there is the answer why fascism took hold in germany. i believe the large majority of germans were not anti semetic, they were pro prosperity, and this is why they voted for hitler, unwittingly causing the second world war and holocaust.

Actually, the jews have been persecuted since the times of the roman empire. Then, when the christians began to break away from the main jewish beliefs, the Jews began to persecute them, and then causing the romans to persecute the christians. So that is where a lot of the anti-semitisim began, and it just continued to grow as the two religions continued to clash.

I'd like to see some documentation for this. I'm aware of HOSTILITIES between mainstream Judaism and the proto-Christians, but not familiar with the Jews having "caused the romans" to persecute Christians. My impression is that the Jews were never in such a position of power.

I would guess that the story of Jewish-backed Roman persecution of Christians is largely a myth, similar to the myth repeated in the NT that the Jews "forced" Pilate to execute Jesus. In reality, the Jews were in no position to tell the Romans to do ANYTHING.

"and of course, money?" WTF?

If you truly talked to all the Jews in your area, then yes, the Jews in your area are asshats. Does that still give you the right to call ALL Jews materialistic?

How old are you? 5?

I'm Jewish and I'm not rich at all, nor do I give a rat's ass about moolah. So you know what? You can take your blind, ignorant, hill billy, bible thumping, boy raping self and go to what you believe is hell.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You refuse to answer the questions I gave you earlier and yet you continue to argue with no evidence to back you up. Give up. You've already lost all your credibility by being so incredibly close minded and ignorant.

Wow and your telling me IM a five year old....

^ Still bypassing questions you can't answer....

Wow and your telling me IM a five year old....
Don't fight ... you both can be five

Wow and your telling me IM a five year old....

What five year olds do you hang out with? :eek:

rofl, my currency is the jew :p

rofl, my currency is the jew :p

Good work Naziopolis. Defy the juden!! :)

Good work Naziopolis. Defy the juden!! :)
that just means they have value

I would use Right-Wing America's for currency but they have practically no value ... would take too many to buy a Mt. Dew

that just means they have value

I would use Right-Wing America's for currency but they have practically no value ... would take too many to buy a Mt. Dew

Yeah, and that's WAY too much useless weight to carry around. ;)

Yeah, and that's WAY too much useless weight to carry around. ;)
LOL