NationStates Jolt Archive

Americans, unite

Re Debbie Erickson's letter "A life changed forever,' Nov. 18:

Erickson speaks as if political agendas and bumper stickers were the most important thing about Christianity. Yet, when it comes to politics, God favors neither the liberals nor the conservatives.

Just because someone voted for Bush does not mean they have moral values. In fact, the media reports I read indicated there was a tendency of people with moral values to vote for Bush. The media never stated that everyone with moral values voted for Bush. There are a great many good Christians with moral values who voted for Kerry.

Erickson just needs to have more faith. Seems to me that she means well and has good values. Can she be sure that Iraq was not ordained by God? Social Security and health care for the poor are noble goals, but the things of this world are finite.

Social Security will end in the future. Even the soul is mortal and can be destroyed. The only thing that is without end is God. Everything in creation has a beginning and an end.

If Erickson is truly concerned about those issues, maybe she ought to work with the people in her church to start a private organization to help poor people afford health insurance.

The landslide Bush victory was God's answer to the cries of the American people for revival.

Since the late '80s common Americans, great and small, young and old, have been on their knees begging God to revive their nation. God did not answer their prayers at first. But now, in the 21st Century, God has answered their prayers. It was not that God wasn't listening to them in the '90s, it was that the time was not yet come for God to pour out his spirit on the nation itself.

Until now, God has worked with small groups of people and individual churches. But now the time arrived that God could fulfill his will for the nation at large. To restore morality to the nation. Nevertheless, God is not the God of division.

It is written that those who use politics to divide the body of Christ and cause the weakest of our brothers and sisters to leave the body will be accursed.

The election is over. Some of us got what we wanted, some of us did not. In the past it was the reverse and sometime in the future it will be again. Groups rise to power and fall from power. Ideologies come and go. But there is one thing that will always be. God is the one running the show and he knows what he is doing.

It appears you have a strong faith in God.

Tell me, where do you stand on the whole "omnisience [of God] and free will [of humans]" debate?

Americans, unite

Re Debbie Erickson's letter "A life changed forever,' Nov. 18:

Erickson speaks as if political agendas and bumper stickers were the most important thing about Christianity. Yet, when it comes to politics, God favors neither the liberals nor the conservatives.

Just because someone voted for Bush does not mean they have moral values. In fact, the media reports I read indicated there was a tendency of people with moral values to vote for Bush. The media never stated that everyone with moral values voted for Bush. There are a great many good Christians with moral values who voted for Kerry.

Erickson just needs to have more faith. Seems to me that she means well and has good values. Can she be sure that Iraq was not ordained by God? Social Security and health care for the poor are noble goals, but the things of this world are finite.

Social Security will end in the future. Even the soul is mortal and can be destroyed. The only thing that is without end is God. Everything in creation has a beginning and an end.

If Erickson is truly concerned about those issues, maybe she ought to work with the people in her church to start a private organization to help poor people afford health insurance.

The landslide Bush victory was God's answer to the cries of the American people for revival.

Since the late '80s common Americans, great and small, young and old, have been on their knees begging God to revive their nation. God did not answer their prayers at first. But now, in the 21st Century, God has answered their prayers. It was not that God wasn't listening to them in the '90s, it was that the time was not yet come for God to pour out his spirit on the nation itself.

Until now, God has worked with small groups of people and individual churches. But now the time arrived that God could fulfill his will for the nation at large. To restore morality to the nation. Nevertheless, God is not the God of division.

It is written that those who use politics to divide the body of Christ and cause the weakest of our brothers and sisters to leave the body will be accursed.

The election is over. Some of us got what we wanted, some of us did not. In the past it was the reverse and sometime in the future it will be again. Groups rise to power and fall from power. Ideologies come and go. But there is one thing that will always be. God is the one running the show and he knows what he is doing.

Time you wake up and do some reading about "God" this is 2004 ... God? If he is real...he's far too much a killer for me to befriend...Even the Greek gods were better and more real!!!

Christianity is a flawed religion, based on the weak of minded. You see, how am I supposed to believe in your religion, when noone believes in it accordding to its principles. Many of your christian people say they are christian and do not act it away from church. Hypocrisy making up your religion...may I say that its not a good thing?
Another flaw in your religion is as you say, "god knows everything...predestination stuff". Well if god knows whether we're goin to hell or heaven then why put us here. To laugh at us? If god knows then why not just set us where we're supposed to be? And furthermore why would god allow the systematic destruction of his people? Could he not see Hitler with his amazing vision? Could he not see the cold showers? What I have to say in summary is that god is not there. He is made up to keep people in line.

It appears you have a strong faith in God.

Tell me, where do you stand on the whole "omnisience [of God] and free will [of humans]" debate?
God is omnisient. He knows everything. But that does not mean that humans don't have free will. If there were no free will for humans, then the cross was in vain and all who believe in Christ believe in vain. They would be believing in something that was nothing more than just another worthless world religion. Christ had to die precisely because God gave humans free will. God knew that if you give some one freedom of choice, there will be quite a few times in which they will make bad choices.
If you had a son or a daughter, and you knew that if you gave them freedom of choice, would you take away their freedom? Most of us would say yes.
When they did make the bad choice, would you be willing to pay the consequences for them, or let them suffer it themselves cause they brought it on themselves? Again most of us would let them suffer cause its not our fault they did what they did.
But not God. God said "Even though I know you are going to make the wrong choices, I am still going to give you freedom of choice. Because I am your creator and I love you. And even though you have made a bad decision and now you have to die, don't worry, I am going to do that for you. Again, cause I am your creator and I want you to be with me in my kingdom with your brothers and sisters."
The basic tenet of christianity is based on God giving mankind freedom of choice even though he knew some of us would committ evil acts.
It is a stark truth, that when you love someone, you have to give them freedom to make their own choices.
Even bible prophecy can be changed. Look at the Book Jonah. God told him to go and tell the people that God was going pour out his wrath on them cause of them being such evil sinners. But then the people of Ninevah repented and changed their ways when they heard the prophecy. Consequently, God chose not to pour out his wrath and instead forgave the people. If you read the story, you know that Jonah was very pissed off cause of this and cursed God for it. This shows that even though God knows what you will do, your destiny is still in your own hands. Even when it comes to omnisient God.
For a more logical reasoning on the subject think of it in terms of quantum mechanics. We are just starting to understand the subject but God has already mastered it. Also chaos theory. You could go good at the same time you could go evil. Kind of like the cat in the box that exists and doesn't exist at the same time. Though I am not sure if the physics analogy helps your understanding or just confuses you.

Time you wake up and do some reading about "God" this is 2004 ... God? If he is real...he's far too much a killer for me to befriend...Even the Greek gods were better and more real!!!
So if your son committed a murder, I could justifiably hold you accountable for his crime?

Christianity is a flawed religion, based on the weak of minded. You see, how am I supposed to believe in your religion, when noone believes in it accordding to its principles. Many of your christian people say they are christian and do not act it away from church. Hypocrisy making up your religion...may I say that its not a good thing?
Another flaw in your religion is as you say, "god knows everything...predestination stuff". Well if god knows whether we're goin to hell or heaven then why put us here. To laugh at us? If god knows then why not just set us where we're supposed to be? And furthermore why would god allow the systematic destruction of his people? Could he not see Hitler with his amazing vision? Could he not see the cold showers? What I have to say in summary is that god is not there. He is made up to keep people in line.
Maybe Christianity is a flawed religion because it was never meant to be a religion but a way of life. It was meant to be a culture. That is why there are so many hypocrites. Where you have any religion you have hypocrisy. In fact, Jesus had a policy toward hypocrites. IE: Do not pray in the manner of the hypocrites for they do so only to get praise from other people. Do not attend church in the manner of the hypocrites for they do so only to increase their status in the community. Beware that you follow not the way of the Pharisees for outside they righteous and pure but inside they are vicious vipers.
Behold you are the light of the world. If you do that which is not what I have taught you, the world will not see your light. Therefore let your light shine that all men may glorify the father.
Also Jesus said, "Those who profess belief in me will not be saved nor are they my followers. But rather my followers are those who do what I have taught them. Those who both believe and do all that I have taught them will be saved. Yeah you are right to believe but know you not that even Satan believes yet he is going down to eternal damnation. Belief is not enough."
Neither church attendance or involvement. If people were true christians they would act like it out of church as well as in church.

There is no predistination in christianity. Anyone who says others is teaching false doctrine.

The Jews are not God's people. The whole human race is God's people. If the Jew's were the only one's to be God's people, then Jesus the Christ would not have died for the sins of Gentiles as well as Jews. But as we all know, Jesus death covers the price of sin for both Jews and nonJews. All men are equal in his sight. He has no favorites among men.

Faith is a wonderful tool. It's when people get together and share it that all hell breaks loose.

Large groups of like-minded humans beings are the single greatest threat to the human race. *nod*

So if your son committed a murder, I could justifiably hold you accountable for his crime?
if the father/mother were all-powerful, yes.

im assuming you didnt write that original post since it references a letter we have NO knowlege of that the author assumes we would

so what in that post do you agree with? what is YOUR understanding of how god is rigging the US elections?

i have no desire to debate whoever wrote something arguing with a letter ive never read. how bout YOU give it a go?

Bush? Moral revival? Mein Gott, that is hypocrisy. He's an excessive capitalist, and not Christian in most of his policies. Have I completely misunderstood?

Most Christians realise that God is in control - but does not exert his control fully, as free will shows. However, some events are predefined (Apocalypse, Second Coming… etc.).

Christianity is a flawed religion, based on the weak of minded. You see, how am I supposed to believe in your religion, when noone believes in it accordding to its principles. Many of your christian people say they are christian and do not act it away from church. Hypocrisy making up your religion...may I say that its not a good thing?
Another flaw in your religion is as you say, "god knows everything...predestination stuff". Well if god knows whether we're goin to hell or heaven then why put us here. To laugh at us? If god knows then why not just set us where we're supposed to be? And furthermore why would god allow the systematic destruction of his people? Could he not see Hitler with his amazing vision? Could he not see the cold showers? What I have to say in summary is that god is not there. He is made up to keep people in line.

right, this may be a long winded explanation but stay with me. Christiantity is Hypocritical but so is everything. Life, the big bang theory, science. Everything in life can be seen in two diffrent lights, two diffrent ways. When you look at religion you can say it causes greif and wars but you can also say that is causes comfort, love and commitment. We are on the earth because we were created on earth. Now, this may sound starnge but heaven was invented by God because he loves us, he loves us like a father loves a son, a maker loves a creation. When you make a clay pot and you look at it and you think it's perfect you are proud of your work and you love it. That is what God is like. We his creations started out life perfect. But like a clay pot, heat and water can erode it and change it. temptation turned us from perfect to not so perfect. That is why hell was made. hell started off a trash can for the broken pieces of pot. But after God's anger died down he realised he loved us too much to send us all down to Hell. So he kept the best poeple, the perfect pots and flooded the rest. Thus creating a new perfect society once again. The reason we sin is because we have intelligant though just like God has, these thoughts can make us do what we were not designed to do. Animals cannot do evil because they can't think for themselves. They act ina way in which they were designed. When we were made we were made to look after the earth and it's animals. But out own thought's turned us arrogant, ignorant and self centerd. Now, back to the story. The new earth was perfect but once again it started to turn evil. So God sent prophets like Moses and Abraham to set out laws and messages to the people. Telling them what to do and what not to do in hope that we would stop sinning. It didn't work. So around 2,000 years when the world was in turmiol God sent his own son to us in hope that we would listen to him. He didn't want to put all his eggs in one basket and he wanted some pots to survive so he sent jesus to show us how we should live our lives. Hyprocrisy? Now. The constant evil that we do makes it seem a lie but how can it be?? jesus was tortured on a cross and died to show God's love for us. God gives us the choice. We can either love him and live our lives as we were made to or be thrown upon the bonfire as pots that didn't work out. Hypocriscy?/ Again, no. No-bodies perfect but we can but try. People try to live the life of God and fail. That's not hyprocricy it's just a fault, A fault given to us through out sin in the garden of eden. Forgiveness is what makes Chrsitains, christians. Like any maker, God will forgive his own. Like every father God will protect his own. Like every owner of an animal what ever goes wrong God will still love us..That is not hypocricy but hope for life after death...

Faith is a wonderful tool. It's when people get together and share it that all hell breaks loose.

Large groups of like-minded humans beings are the single greatest threat to the human race. *nod*
Indeed group think has never been good.

im assuming you didnt write that original post since it references a letter we have NO knowlege of that the author assumes we would

so what in that post do you agree with? what is YOUR understanding of how god is rigging the US elections?

i have no desire to debate whoever wrote something arguing with a letter ive never read. how bout YOU give it a go?
actually I did.

Judging by the way things are going in the world at the moment, i would say God Isn't in control.

im assuming you didnt write that original post since it references a letter we have NO knowlege of that the author assumes we would

so what in that post do you agree with? what is YOUR understanding of how god is rigging the US elections?

i have no desire to debate whoever wrote something arguing with a letter ive never read. how bout YOU give it a go?
On your second question:
God causes nations to rise and fall. People rise to power and fall from power. Alliances come and go. Ideologies and political parties and even religions come and go. People are born and people die. Men and women get together then break up. For everything under the sun there is both a beginning and an end.
Nothing on earth lasts forever. But there is one thing we know to be true: God is the same God as he was yesterday, and he will be the same God tomorrow. He will never change. And he is running the show. Trust that he knows what he is doing.
And Jesus did point to one thing that would never change in our world. He said that the rich and famous and powerful would come and go. But that the poor will always be with us. There will always be poverty no matter what we do.

Christianity is a flawed religion,All religions are flawed. Not one of 'em has any basis other than wishful thinking by some and a desire to be in control by others.

It appears you have a strong faith in God.

Tell me, where do you stand on the whole "omnisience [of God] and free will [of humans]" debate?

God gives us free will. You can choose your job, your spouse, where you live, etc. but you cannot choose your purpose, which is defined by God.

I still am of the opinion that the idea of god makes everything seem worthless. No thanks.

actually I did.
well thats very confusing
who is this debbie erickson and what letter did she write and why didnt you include it so we could see just what the F you were responding to?

amd what do you MEAN by "The landslide Bush victory was God's answer to the cries of the American people for revival."?

that there was no "landslide" aside (look at regans reelection in '84, THAT was a landslide) are you suggesting that god "rigged" the election? just HOW is god running the show? you say it but i dont understand exactly what mechanism you are suggesting.

nations do come and go, i dont see why you think god is running the show as if we were just marionettes in some sick god puppetshow put on for his own amusement.

I still am of the opinion that the idea of god makes everything seem worthless. No thanks.

How wrong you are, my friend. Read the book of Ecclestiastes by Solomon, and you'll find how God makes everything seem worth it.

Judging by the way things are going in the world at the moment, i would say God Isn't in control.

God never said the world would be perfect. Its not his job to make it so.

I still am of the opinion that the idea of god makes everything seem worthless. No thanks.
why is that?

well thats very confusing
who is this debbie erickson and what letter did she write and why didnt you include it so we could see just what the F you were responding to?

amd what do you MEAN by "The landslide Bush victory was God's answer to the cries of the American people for revival."?

that there was no "landslide" aside (look at regans reelection in '84, THAT was a landslide) are you suggesting that god "rigged" the election? just HOW is god running the show? you say it but i dont understand exactly what mechanism you are suggesting.

nations do come and go, i dont see why you think god is running the show as if we were just marionettes in some sick god puppetshow put on for his own amusement.

hmmm... why do you feel that way?

How wrong you are, my friend. Read the book of Ecclestiastes by Solomon, and you'll find how God makes everything seem worth it.

I've read the Bible. Hell, I was an altar boy for five or six years. The people I've met at church are (for the most part) decent folk. If Jesus came to my door, I'd probably invite him in for some waffles. But god doesn't feel good inside me. I don't need to be told that I'm "wrong", thank you. I might be. But hey, we agnostics live life on the edge, right?

hmmm... why do you feel that way?
i feel confused because you have posted what seems to be a letter to the editor of something in response to another letter to the editor that we havent read and we are expected to understand what you are talking about when we havent read this other letter you refer to.

and you have not clarified anything i asked you to clarify

Indeed group think has never been good.
it gives out Bushes and kerrys whle ignoring naders and bardnariks

To worship anyone is to be a slave.

You have freewill, but if you don't do as God says, you go to hell. That is not freewill.

It's about the same as saying the slaves in the 1800 were free all along. If they wanted to, they could just get up and walk away. And physically, they could do this. But if they did, they would be severly punished.

I have no idea if there is a god or not. I don't figure I'll ever know while being alive, nor do I figure I'm supposed to know. I do however know that if there is a god, and he is what christians and other religions say he is, then I have no desire to worship, follow or spend time or whatever with him. Thats not how you treat someone you supposedly love.

But I figure everything has to come from somewhere, so decent chance there is somekind of god or something bigger. I just don't believe for 1 second the things people say about him. And if I should ever meet him, I'll be sure to thank him.

whle ignoring bardnariks
Don't ignore me!

If God is in control then it is time he was fired for incompetence.

They would be believing in something that was nothing more than just another worthless world religion.

that's quite a high horse

Well, ignoring what everybody else has said (I skimmed through it...it seemed like everyone yelling "Bullcrap!" "No, YOU'RE full of it!"), here's what I believe:

God is the Greatest Being Conceivable. Simple. What does that mean? An absolute being, a being perfect in every conceivable way. The closest I can come to describing God scientifically is: imagine a being who is able to use 100% of its brain's capability. Science cannot describe God any more than that, because we have absolutely no clue what would happen if any person was able to use 100% of his/her brain. More than likely, that person would be God. Does God exist? Well, by saying "Greatest Being Conceivable", it means that God MUST exist, because a God that does not exist is NOT the Greatest Being Conceivable. A real God is greater than an fictitious one, correct? Want a scientific reason? Well, I don't have a very strong one, but my personal reason is that SOMETHING had to cause the Big Bang. The Universe needed a first cause. You cannot go infinitely backwards as well as forwards...that makes no sense. Everything has a beginning, but for the Universe to exist it needed something to CAUSE it to exist. That thing, I believe, is God.

Now, on the matter of the religions. In short, religions are humanity's attempts to understand God and the world around them. The problem is that people take the concept WAY TOO FAR. Killing over religion? Is there ANYTHING DUMBER than that? Who CARES who's "right"? Every major religion advocates PEACE, LOVE, and HARMONY. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam even go so far as to BELIEVE IN THE SAME CONCEPT OF GOD. Jews, Christians, and Muslims fighting over their beliefs is like Kansas and Ohio fighting eachother, both in the name of Florida. IT IS STUPID.

If people would stop shooting at eachother for ten minutes and actually LOOK at what their religions are telling them, listen to what Jesus, Mohammed, Buddah, and the other prophets were really saying, there would be A LOT LESS violence in the world.

If God is in control then it is time he was fired for incompetence.
yes i find the contention that god is controlling this mess to be singularily uncomforting

he really should at least get a better scriptwriter

Whether or not there IS a God is actually patently irrelevant, as is shown by Pascal's Wager (look it up if you don't know what it is). The point is the way God is portrayed by those who believe in him, particularly those who are most vocal in his support, and the way those people act turns many people off to religion (me included). I suppose that if I was asked the question "Who is God?" I would answer that God is all of us. We make the world act how it acts, and if God is acting through us, then yes, we are part of God, and are God on this world.

Martin Luther was absolutely right when he said that everyone should worship God how they see fit, and that simply reading the Bible underneath a tree is as good for worshipping as is attending Mass.

If we didn't have the massive church organizations trying to herd everyone into a single mold of people, then I very much doubt that Atheism would be so prominent because more people would have the incentive to explore themselves more spritually, and actually figure out who they are, with what connection to a higher being, without being criticized for being "wrong" by everyone else.

To those saying America wanted a revival: instituting a theocratic democracy (or even a theocracy) is not going to help, because that, again, tries to force people into the mold for an "ideal citizen". So I'll ask sincerely that you please back off on trying to force people into that mold, and perhaps religion will achieve a sublime level when everyone begins to understand who they are, and what their connection to this world, and their purpose in this world is.

To worship anyone is to be a slave.

You have freewill, but if you don't do as God says, you go to hell. That is not freewill.

It's about the same as saying the slaves in the 1800 were free all along. If they wanted to, they could just get up and walk away. And physically, they could do this. But if they did, they would be severly punished.

I have no idea if there is a god or not. I don't figure I'll ever know while being alive, nor do I figure I'm supposed to know. I do however know that if there is a god, and he is what christians and other religions say he is, then I have no desire to worship, follow or spend time or whatever with him. Thats not how you treat someone you supposedly love.

But I figure everything has to come from somewhere, so decent chance there is somekind of god or something bigger. I just don't believe for 1 second the things people say about him. And if I should ever meet him, I'll be sure to thank him.
Can't compare it to slavery cause it don't fit.
Its more like someone breaking the law and hurting a lot of other people in the process. Would you send them to prison or would you let them go and give them a million dollar cash prize? They had free will. Under your logic regarding free will, they should get the million dollars even though they broke the rules and they hurt other people.

Well, ignoring what everybody else has said (I skimmed through it...it seemed like everyone yelling "Bullcrap!" "No, YOU'RE full of it!"), here's what I believe:

God is the Greatest Being Conceivable. Simple. What does that mean? An absolute being, a being perfect in every conceivable way. The closest I can come to describing God scientifically is: imagine a being who is able to use 100% of its brain's capability. Science cannot describe God any more than that, because we have absolutely no clue what would happen if any person was able to use 100% of his/her brain. More than likely, that person would be God. Does God exist? Well, by saying "Greatest Being Conceivable", it means that God MUST exist, because a God that does not exist is NOT the Greatest Being Conceivable. A real God is greater than an fictitious one, correct? Want a scientific reason? Well, I don't have a very strong one, but my personal reason is that SOMETHING had to cause the Big Bang. The Universe needed a first cause. You cannot go infinitely backwards as well as forwards...that makes no sense. Everything has a beginning, but for the Universe to exist it needed something to CAUSE it to exist. That thing, I believe, is God.

Now, on the matter of the religions. In short, religions are humanity's attempts to understand God and the world around them. The problem is that people take the concept WAY TOO FAR. Killing over religion? Is there ANYTHING DUMBER than that? Who CARES who's "right"? Every major religion advocates PEACE, LOVE, and HARMONY. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam even go so far as to BELIEVE IN THE SAME CONCEPT OF GOD. Jews, Christians, and Muslims fighting over their beliefs is like Kansas and Ohio fighting eachother, both in the name of Florida. IT IS STUPID.

If people would stop shooting at eachother for ten minutes and actually LOOK at what their religions are telling them, listen to what Jesus, Mohammed, Buddah, and the other prophets were really saying, there would be A LOT LESS violence in the world.

Did you know that the muslims were the very first people to wage war in the name of religion? And that christians copied the concept of holy war from them. And the christians and muslims both passed the concept onto the hindus in India?

God is omnisient. He knows everything. But that does not mean that humans don't have free will. If there were no free will for humans, then the cross was in vain and all who believe in Christ believe in vain. They would be believing in something that was nothing more than just another worthless world religion.

Ah, what are these "worthless world religions"? Anything except for Christianity right? I mean....because Christianity is the ONLY religion....

Heh...

Whether or not there IS a God is actually patently irrelevant, as is shown by Pascal's Wager (look it up if you don't know what it is). The point is the way God is portrayed by those who believe in him, particularly those who are most vocal in his support, and the way those people act turns many people off to religion (me included). I suppose that if I was asked the question "Who is God?" I would answer that God is all of us. We make the world act how it acts, and if God is acting through us, then yes, we are part of God, and are God on this world.

Martin Luther was absolutely right when he said that everyone should worship God how they see fit, and that simply reading the Bible underneath a tree is as good for worshipping as is attending Mass.

If we didn't have the massive church organizations trying to herd everyone into a single mold of people, then I very much doubt that Atheism would be so prominent because more people would have the incentive to explore themselves more spritually, and actually figure out who they are, with what connection to a higher being, without being criticized for being "wrong" by everyone else.

To those saying America wanted a revival: instituting a theocratic democracy (or even a theocracy) is not going to help, because that, again, tries to force people into the mold for an "ideal citizen". So I'll ask sincerely that you please back off on trying to force people into that mold, and perhaps religion will achieve a sublime level when everyone begins to understand who they are, and what their connection to this world, and their purpose in this world is.

You do know that only 10 to 15% of Americans are athiest versus about 75% of Europeans?

Ah, what are these "worthless world religions"? Anything except for Christianity right?
Christianity as a religion is also a worthless world religion. It applies to all manmade religions, christianity included.

Christianity as a religion is also a worthless world religion. It applies to all manmade religions, christianity included.

Oh believe me, I agree with you. I was just curious as to what other religions he/she was talking about.

You do know that only 10 to 15% of Americans are athiest versus about 75% of Europeans?

That still proves my point. I.e. there's a lot of athiests out there. Have you ever wondered why it is that there are a lot of athiests out there?

1) Pascal was an idiot. His wager ignores countless possibilities. What if the Biblical deity as a notion is what people who deserve heaven are supposed to REJECT? Consider how many wars the Bible has been used to excuse. Wouldn't a deity giving out free will want you to prove worthy of that will by rejecting evil no matter the threat of hell that may be involved? Also, if Bob the Great Goat is the true deity, and the Biblical one is false, then Bob the Great Goat may send you to hell for worshipping the Biblical deity, but may forgive non-theists.

a) Try "Incenjucar's Wager": Be a good person, and, if by some deranged twist of reality, some deity gets angry and sends you to hell, then you, at least, were better than an almighty entity, so :upyours: them! Better eternal torment than being a slave to evil.

b) If you worship out of selfishness (that is, out of a desire to go to heaven), you're going hell anyways, unless the deity ONLY cares about gettings its rump kissed, so its outright assenine to waste your life with it.

2) It's not slavery, per say. Its more of "See this whip? If you don't kiss my foot and call me daddy, of your own free will, I'm going to beat you with it over and over and over." The choices are the leash or the whip. It's free will solely so you can suppress it.

3) There has never been evidence for perfect or impossible things. Ever. Assuming they exist is irrational.

4) There's that many atheists because evolution, even on a social scale, is hard to keep down.

Pascal was an idiot.

that's just not true. pascal was a genious, and just because you can poke holes holes in the wager doesn't mean it's not valid overall. there are few representations that cannot have holes poked in them.

that's just not true. pascal was a genious, and just because you can poke holes holes in the wager doesn't mean it's not valid overall. there are few representations that cannot have holes poked in them.

I don't care if he invented science, philosophy, and the internet on the same day. Anyone who can't see through such an obviously bad 'logical' argument is an idiot, just like ol' Albert would be an idiot if he managed to smack himself in the face with a rake, Three Stooges style, every day of his life. He may have been a very very very smart idiot, but he still made a seriously bad argument that a reasonably intelligent child could see through.

He'd have to have stated a number of premises which there's no reason to assume are true for that 'wager' to even be valid, but the premises themselves are illogical.

It's along the lines of:

"Apple, or orange?"
"Grape?"
"Shutup, there's no such thing as grape, you don't know what grape is, I've never heard of grape, grape isn't possible!"
"Dude, I can draw you a picture of grapes..."
"Silence!"
"But... I had grapes for lunch..."
"Nooo! My ears! They BURN!"
"And there's some grape juice in the fridge..."
"I will kill you!"
"Alright, alright! Geeze!"
"Hrmph. Right. Apple, or orange?"
"Hey... how about.. puppy?"
"Raaargh!"
"Eep!"

I'm sorry, but it takes an idiot to forget Puppy.

Does God exist? Well, by saying "Greatest Being Conceivable", it means that God MUST exist, because a God that does not exist is NOT the Greatest Being Conceivable. A real God is greater than an fictitious one, correct?

Says who? I can't think of any compelling reason for existence to be any more perfect than non-existence. Non-existence is flawless and infinite. Power isn't a quality of perfection or greatness.

Want a scientific reason? Well, I don't have a very strong one, but my personal reason is that SOMETHING had to cause the Big Bang. The Universe needed a first cause. You cannot go infinitely backwards as well as forwards...that makes no sense. Everything has a beginning, but for the Universe to exist it needed something to CAUSE it to exist. That thing, I believe, is God.

That's a circular argument which regresses infinitely unless you rely on a crazy concept with no backing that directly contradicts the idea. It's called Anselm's ontological argument, and people have come up with plenty of reasons why it isn't sound. Speaking of which:

Can't compare it to slavery cause it don't fit.
Its more like someone breaking the law and hurting a lot of other people in the process. Would you send them to prison or would you let them go and give them a million dollar cash prize? They had free will. Under your logic regarding free will, they should get the million dollars even though they broke the rules and they hurt other people.

So gay people are hurting you and getting a million dollars for it? God will punish you for doing things he doesn't like, whether or not you and the people around you think it is the right thing to do. Your morality isn't automatically God's morality. People shouldn't live their lives expecting a reward for their goodness. What is the point of punishing someone if they aren't supposed to learn something from it? The whole thing is dumb.

A good Christian having good morals is a contradiction.

If God was in control the nation would be in a hole in the ground, people would be regularily killed for muttering anything about science or any other religion and everyone would be miserable so that they would flock to the Church and beg for deliverance.