NationStates Jolt Archive

I think we all need to just discuss what the advantages and disadvantages are to different political ideology. I see people screaming about more and less government influence, without actually knowing why the other side could be advantageous.

Here are, in my opinion, the four ideals of government:

1) Liberalism--ideal state would be communism
Socially libertarian, economically authoritarian

2) Conservatism--ideal state would be ???
Socially authoritarian, economically libertarian

3) Libertarianism--ideal state would be anarchy
Socially libertarian, economically libertarian

4) Authoritarianism--ideal state would be fascism
Socially authoritarian, economically authoritarian

Of course there are variations on these. This only includes things on two axes, and I would welcome more.

I think we all need to just discuss what the advantages and disadvantages are to different political ideology. I see people screaming about more and less government influence, without actually knowing why the other side could be advantageous.

Here are, in my opinion, the four ideals of government:

1) Liberalism--ideal state would be communism

2) Conservatism--ideal state would be ???

3) Libertarianism--ideal state would be anarchy

4) Authoritarianism--ideal state would be fascism

Of course there are variations on these. This only includes things on two axes, and I would welcome more.
liberalism would not be a commnist government ideally, since liberalism, because of its nature, has never existed in a truly extremist fashion. Probably an anarchy where the people are not controlled at all, but busineses are regulated like they would be in communism

There are so many degrees of conservatism and liberalism that you can't really define an ideal state. I guess a fiscally responsible state that adheres to tradition could be described as "conservative."

liberalism would not be a commnist government ideally, since liberalism, because of its nature, has never existed in a truly extremist fashion. Probably an anarchy where the people are not controlled at all, but busineses are regulated like they would be in communism
Well, there haven't been any liberal or libertarian states on any major scale. Modern communism, which I prefer to call pseudo-communism, is really closer to fascism than anything else.

And perhaps I should've made it clear, I really want to talk about different level of government regulation and its effect on the various parts of society. I should have formatted the initial post differently.

There are so many degrees of conservatism and liberalism that you can't really define an ideal state. I guess a fiscally responsible state that adheres to tradition could be described as "conservative."
not necesarily. Because so many conservatives are so because of religion, their ideal state could be a christian theocracy

Well, there haven't been any liberal or libertarian states on any major scale. Modern communism, which I prefer to call pseudo-communism, is really closer to fascism than anything else.

And perhaps I should've made it clear, I really want to talk about different level of government regulation and its effect on the various parts of society. I should have formatted the initial post differently.
except for liberatrianism, all extremes will eventually lead to an extremely authoritative government, ususally in both economic and social policies

not necesarily. Because so many conservatives are so because of religion, their ideal state could be a christian theocracy
Don't...don't even mention such a thing...now I'm gonna have nightmares...

Edit:
except for liberatrianism, all extremes will eventually lead to an extremely authoritative government, ususally in both economic and social policies
Well, to be fair, I am mainly trying to address governmental ideals...it is true that most governments will become more and more authoritarian, but I can still try, damnit!

The ideal Conservative state = no taxes and a small government, if any. Now the Christian side would made it a theocracy but the athiest side would just make it a very limited government. Not all Conservatives are Christians, folks.........

The ideal Conservative state would be to have no taxes and a small government, if any.
That is a good point. There really can't be an ideal conservative state, because if the government has no economic power, it will have no social power...

That is a good point. There really can't be an ideal conservative state, because if the government has no economic power, it will have no social power...




Thats my ideal state, I personally don't want a Christian Theocracy ruling and yes, I'm a Christian but I believe in the seperation between church and state yadda yadda yadda.

Thats my ideal state, I personally don't want a Christian Theocracy ruling and yes, I'm a Christian but I believe in the seperation between church and state yadda yadda yadda.
That's anarchy. Which really is everyone but fascists ideal state, as that is the eventual goal of communism--to establish a communist state then the government slowly deteriorates from the economic part and eventually dissolves altogether.

If only we could emulate ants and their collective mindset...but alas, we cannot and never will... Damnit myrmecology, give humans some aid!

i don't know that communism can rightly be called 'economically authoritarian'. after all, the owners of the means of production are allowed to do pretty much whatever they like - its just that everybody owns them equally, so they can't be used to exploit others through the wage and profit system.

in fact, it could probably be argued that capitalism is economically authoritarian as people who don't legitimately own the means of production control their use and rake in all the profits based on that illegitimate claim of ownership. property is theft, you know.

That's anarchy. Which really is everyone but fascists ideal state, as that is the eventual goal of communism--to establish a communist state then the government slowly deteriorates from the economic part and eventually dissolves altogether.

If only we could emulate ants and their collective mindset...but alas, we cannot and never will... Damnit myrmecology, give humans some aid!



Whats like anarchy?

i don't know that communism can rightly be called 'economically authoritarian'. after all, the owners of the means of production are allowed to do pretty much whatever they like - its just that everybody owns them equally, so they can't be used to exploit others through the wage and profit system.
No, communism pretty much gives goverment control of all industry.

What about the point that economic freedom is a nessecary pre-condition to a true deliberative democracy? Isn't that true liberalism?

No, communism pretty much gives goverment control of all industry.

there is no state under communism - government would be identical to the population in general. which is also identical to the set of people who own the means of production.

Thats my ideal state, I personally don't want a Christian Theocracy ruling and yes, I'm a Christian but I believe in the seperation between church and state yadda yadda yadda.
so then you want anarchy

so then you want anarchy



What I said I want as little government as possible, not as much.

I think what Gnostikos was saying is that communism as it has existed in reality... is very close to authoritarian governments. (correct me if i'm wrong) And on that point I'd agree.

The conversation in this stream seems to be very disjointed and unorganized. It is impossible to generalize any of these various government types without having huge differences of opinion. I'd be curious to hear comments on the original post by Gnostikos, regarding the benefits and burdens of various types of government... as viewed by everyone.

To start it off I'll give my 2 cents on a government type... and I'll take an easy one. The ineffective beauracracy. My example being the UN. Here the benefits appear to be based upon the member-states or regions that make up the larger group. And they also appear to be the limiting factor of it. If the UN were made up of 5 very efficient and effective governments it would be efficient and effective. If it were made up of 5 corrupt and misguided groups then it would be corrupt and misguided. Currently it is a blend of the 2, because the members span the spectrum.

Obviously this was meant partially in gest, but I figure it could at least start us off.

What about the point that economic freedom is a nessecary pre-condition to a true deliberative democracy? Isn't that true liberalism?
No. Liberalism is not related to whether the state is democratic or not.

there is no state under communism - government would be identical to the population in general. which is also identical to the set of people who own the means of production.
That is anarchy. What do liberals typically want? More government. What else? More civil rights. That means that they want the government to be more oppressive on issues like the environment and industry, but less so on civil rights. Communism is the extreme left. Therefore communism, ideally, would have all industry controlled by government, with everyone free to do pretty much anything they want that only affects themselves. If the government does not control industry, that is libertarian, which is anarchy, because the government really can't do anything if it exists at all.

That is anarchy. What do liberals typically want? More government. What else? More civil rights. That means that they want the government to be more oppressive on issues like the environment and industry, but less so on civil rights. Communism is the extreme left. Therefore communism, ideally, would have all industry controlled by government, with everyone free to do pretty much anything they want that only affects themselves. If the government does not control industry, that is libertarian, which is anarchy, because the government really can't do anything if it exists at all.

i'm just giving you the definition of communism. if you have communism, then you do not have a government that is sepreate from the people as a whole or from the owners of the means of production. that just is what communism means.

as for libertarian vs authoritarian in terms of economics, think of it like this:
why exactly would government control over industry be non-libertarian? unless we are just playing with words and defining them in a circular fashion, its because government control means some entity that is not the 'rightful owner' gets to make decisions about use that overrule those of the 'rightful owner'. but if the 'rightful owner' decided to change how the industry was run to protect the environment, that wouldn't be authoritarian. but under communism, the 'rightful owners' are the only ones making decisions about how to run an industry. which makes it libertarian.

No. Liberalism is not related to whether the state is democratic or not.


So liberalism, by your definition, does not encompass political freedom.

i'm just giving you the definition of communism. if you have communism, then you do not have a government that is sepreate from the people as a whole or from the owners of the means of production. that just is what communism means.

no it doesnt.that is a dictatorship.merely every large communism on earth is also a dictatorship.
a properly run communism everyone owns equally in all things.which only seems to work on the small scale(small towns and such)

no it doesnt.that is a dictatorship.merely every large communism on earth is also a dictatorship.
a properly run communism everyone owns equally in all things.which only seems to work on the small scale(small towns and such)

you are thinking of marxist-leninist-whateverism. even if we accept them on their own terms as being exactly what they say they are, they only claim to be socialist. communism is the end state that they claim to be aiming at, not their current status.