NationStates Jolt Archive

Return of the Blacklist
Providence Journal

Molly Little is a "Female Special."

She didn't know. She didn't seek the title. She found out about it at the airport in Portland, Maine.

Little is from South Kingstown, R.I., a freshman at Colby College, and she doesn't like a lot of things her government is doing. So she demonstrates and asks questions and is drawn to people who share her outrage. Last year, she did an internship with the American Friends Service Committee, the organization founded by those peace-loving Quakers.

She made news with some friends last April when she took part in a symbolic washing of the United States flag at the Rhode Island State House.

"We're saying we're the future and we want to cleanse the United States of what it represents right now," she said at the time.

But she has found that speaking out and being very public in her opposition to government policies, while allegedly every citizen's right, can make her stand out in a crowd.

On Nov. 18, she was headed to Fort Benning, Ga., to take part in the annual nonviolent demonstration against The School of the Americas, that shadowy operation that is a training school for so many Latin American soldiers eager to learn the American way of keeping insurgencies in check. The school has been renamed the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, but that euphemistic turn has not stopped thousands of people from showing up every year to say the school is a very bad and un-American idea.

At the Portland airport, Little found that maybe, just maybe, a person can no longer speak out without getting his or her name on a list.

She was running a little late when she got to the airport due to a speeding ticket. At the Delta ticket counter, the attendant asked if she was in the military because she was on a list for an extra security check. The attendant spent some time on the phone but could not tell her why she was on the list.

It was when she got to the checkpoint on the way to the boarding gate that she found she was a "female special." That's what yet another attendant yelled out after Little presented her boarding pass and driver's license.

"I didn't know whether to burst out laughing or slap her or run away," Little says. "But before I could make a choice, I was whisked out of the line of harmless citizens and into an area enclosed by shoulder-height walls."

She says she was patted down and scanned with a metal detector. Her carry-on bag was emptied out, and her textbooks and journal were flipped through by a security person. Again, she could get no satisfactory answer as to why she was being singled out.

She made it to Fort Benning, and it was worth the hassle. She was among a large group of people who shared her deep concerns about where the country is going.

At the airport in Atlanta for the flight home, she was once again directed to a separate room and patted down. The people who did it were very nice, she says.

But still, she is angry about her treatment. She was never told why she made the list. "The idea that I could be dangerous, that I could hurt other human beings, is preposterous," Little says.

But, she concedes, what she went through was merely an aggravation. Many others are being detained for weeks and months and harassed on a daily basis, she says.

And she admits that in times like these, the best place to be is among those who question and challenge and get pulled out of line at airports because they refuse to join the frightened and the silent.

"There is a growing community of people who are outraged at what is going on," Little says.

We can only hope.

Her experience brings back memories of that heated and angry time more than 30 years ago when outspoken critics of President Nixon and the Vietnam War had their names put on an enemies list. There were reporters, priests, entertainers _ people who insisted that the Constitution still protected the right to speak out.

Then, too, a place on the list was considered by many a rock-solid credential of true citizenship. In a mad, paranoid time, it was considered best to stand with those who insisted on speaking out and risking the often harsh consequences.

Now, it seems, there is another list. It might never be officially confirmed, but when an 18-year-old from Rhode Island with a mind of her own can be detained at an airport without explanation it's difficult to escape the feeling that somebody's out there taking names.

It's frightening. But it's also encouraging to know that Molly Little moves on, talking up the need to get angry and get moving and perhaps get on the list.

A Female Special indeed.

MKULTRA! You're back! Shouldn't this be in your concentration thread?

The thing is it seems like the story is trying to make connections that might or might not exist. And we don't know the total of what she's been associated with through unintentional situations. Hell, I was a member of a club at my high school, and the club held a booze party, and even though I wasn't there and I didn't know of the party, I was interrogated by the administration.

short answer, no. it was people in the wrong place at the wrong time in foreign countries and legal immigrants who happened to look like they were from the mideast.

we started smashing up ins buildings over it, what, like 2 years ago already.

http://sf.indymedia.org/uploads/ins_smash1.jpg

Yea! He's back.

Hey you didn't say if the camps are near anywhere interesting!

Still looking for a holiday!

If she's going to a concentration camp, you're in BIG trouble, MKULTRA.

Thanks, MK.

Ooh! I just thought up a good joke.

Two people arrive in the afterlife. MKULTRA's nightmare America has arisen in the world. The concentration camps are open and the two people talk, the first guy says, "yeah, I died in a concentration camp, how did you die?" The second guy responds, "Wow, what are the odds of that, I did too! I fell out of a guard tower!"

Nice story MK, but all too common these days.

I've already chosen where I'd rather stand if it comes down to deciding which side of the fence you have to be on. You better lock me up too because I won't stand by and say nothing as others are.

Put my name on the list.

MKULTRA! You're back! Shouldn't this be in your concentration thread?

The thing is it seems like the story is trying to make connections that might or might not exist. And we don't know the total of what she's been associated with through unintentional situations. Hell, I was a member of a club at my high school, and the club held a booze party, and even though I wasn't there and I didn't know of the party, I was interrogated by the administration.
No--I was able to escape from that thread ;)

Yea! He's back.

Hey you didn't say if the camps are near anywhere interesting!

Still looking for a holiday!
theyre S&M camps :mad: :(

If she's going to a concentration camp, you're in BIG trouble, MKULTRA.
:eek:

Thanks, MK.
Yous welcome

Ooh! I just thought up a good joke.

Two people arrive in the afterlife. MKULTRA's nightmare America has arisen in the world. The concentration camps are open and the two people talk, the first guy says, "yeah, I died in a concentration camp, how did you die?" The second guy responds, "Wow, what are the odds of that, I did too! I fell out of a guard tower!"
he was prly PUSHED off the guard tower for saying somehting critical of Herr Bush

Nice story MK, but all too common these days.

I've already chosen where I'd rather stand if it comes down to deciding which side of the fence you have to be on. You better lock me up too because I won't stand by and say nothing as others are.

Put my name on the list.
the people need to stand together to fight the power. if they separate us with fear they win

the people need to stand together to fight the power. if they separate us with fear they win

I take it you're not going to slink on up here to Canada then? Good on you.

OH MY GOSH! Searching someone going into an airport! Oh my! Clearly the first step to concentration camps.

Pathetic attempt to connect the ideas.

Now think about this logically, who is more likely to carry out illegal activity against the country? The person who agrees with government policy or the person who doesn't?

It makes SENSE.

Now I'm not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with government policy should be searched etc. however think about it, if a man (or woman) who was known to hate... say.... England, would you not find it justified if English authorities took a few extra precautions with that person? Somehow I don't see how this leads to concentration camps.

Now think about this logically, who is more likely to carry out illegal activity against the country? The person who agrees with government policy or the person who doesn't?


The person who claims to agree is more likely to pose the greater threat. A dissenter knows they run the risk of being monitored. A true threat knows how to play along.

An intelligent one anyways.

You'll note that most people who hate the States are fairly verbal about it though.

I'm not saying no one who agrees is pretending, but there's a POSSIBILITY someone who agrees (and a small one at that) may dislike the government enough to try something, whereas someone who is known to disagree is far more likely (certain exceptions) to try something...

Lordaeron, she doesn't hate America, she hates the current administration, and current policies. ALso, if you read carefully, you'll notice that she joined the quakers, a peaceful organization. She doesn't have a history of violence, so she isn't a threat, merely speaking her mind doesn't constitue a security risk.

I take it you're not going to slink on up here to Canada then? Good on you.
first off Canadas too bloody cold--secondly nope. Im not surrendering my country to Red State Terrorists

newsflash: apart from Israel , America is not well liked in the world. have you ever stopped to wonder why?

i hate America, quick send over a NSA agent to monitor my every move in case i "dissent". I still can't believe Cat Stevens (or Yusuf Islam or whatever he calls himself these days) wasnt let into the country because he donated to a Palestinian charity (and we all know, any group trying to help people who are shot at in refugee camps by Israeli troops absolutely must be terrorists).

first off Canadas too bloody cold--secondly nope. Im not surrendering my country to Red State Terrorists

Ahh, would that it always remain so, too. Cold is our national calling-card.

OH MY GOSH! Searching someone going into an airport! Oh my! Clearly the first step to concentration camps.

Pathetic attempt to connect the ideas.

Now think about this logically, who is more likely to carry out illegal activity against the country? The person who agrees with government policy or the person who doesn't?

It makes SENSE.

Now I'm not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with government policy should be searched etc. however think about it, if a man (or woman) who was known to hate... say.... England, would you not find it justified if English authorities took a few extra precautions with that person? Somehow I don't see how this leads to concentration camps.

Oh my gods someone being singled out for special treatment by a government agency only because she was active politically against the current administration! Oh my! Clearly the non-regulated identification and hassling dissenting voices in America could in no way be misused in any way shape or form.

A pathetic attempt to miss the point.

Now think about this logically, who is more likely to be thrown in prison without just cause, those who live in a nation that does not carry out monitoring of any and every dissenting voice within its borders? Or those who live in nations that do not single out dissenters for obsevation, identification, and put them on lists and hand those lists out throughout the nation?

It makes SENSE...that people who are marked and identified by a government, then singled out for "special treatment" because they speak out should fear reprisal and intimidation because of their activities. How many would chose to speak out if they know they will be hassled and singled out for protesting ANYTHING their government does?

Now you're not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with government policy should be searched, etc. However that IS what just happened. Someone who joined a peaceful movement, who has never commited a crime, nor joined a criminal orginazation has been singled out and searched by government agencies as part of POLICY. (Lets rewind for a sec here; they did this because they were instructed to. It was POLICY. This wasn't an overzealous employee, nor a manager with a bad idea. Someone in the Government said that people who join the QUAKERS should be watched. Got it? THE QUAKERS!)

However you think about it, if a man or a woman who is known to hate...say...illegal torture and killings (which is what they accused the school of teaching remember), would you not find it even a little suspect that a government which has recently challenged legal doctrine on just that very subject would go about creating lists on those who spoke against it?

Not even a little? Concentration camps are indeed the extreme part of this notion. But that's MKULTRA's style and this IS a disturbing report. There is NO oversight on the national agencies that carry out security in the US. No oversight means nothing is looked after, and when nothing is looked after, nothing works well (I call the the opaque system of government, you remember the USSR? Yeah, they tried that system already).

MKULTRA is bringing to light a serious case of governmental governance gone horribly wrong. As a US citizen, I feel compelled to ask my government to correct this. However, if I do speak out...how likely is it that I will be hussled off to a room and searched if I want to pick up a friend from the airport? Or, god forbid, travel? Am I a potential enemy of the state because I LIKE my nation? Think about that long and hard before you dismiss MKULTRA's reactionary phrasing. Underneath all of that, there are some very good points.

I hate to bring this up because I believe that our government is doing some horrible things. However, it is a fact that most violent protesters started out as peaceful protesters. Then, they got more desperate (or less sympathetic). As a matter of national security, it is beneficial for the government to keep its eyes on peaceful protesters. Also, there's no telling whether she joined the Quakers with true intentions of following their ways or just for cover.

All government keep lists of citizens to be watched. The scary thing here is that the current US administration obviously doesn't feel the need to pretend it doesn't. That right there is the most dangerous aspect of this story as it suggests that they feel strong enough to openly "inconvenience" ordinary citizens who protest against them and feel that enough people will say, well it must be for a good reason or they are looking after security. ot good.

I hate to bring this up because I believe that our government is doing some horrible things. However, it is a fact that most violent protesters started out as peaceful protesters. Then, they got more desperate (or less sympathetic). As a matter of national security, it is beneficial for the government to keep its eyes on peaceful protesters. Also, there's no telling whether she joined the Quakers with true intentions of following their ways or just for cover.

So in the name of national security we should just overturn one of the basic tenents of American belief and start working from a guilty until proven innocent paradigm? How far should this go? Maybe we should start suspecting everyone who isn't waving flags and actively praising our government - afterall, those silent ones are much more likely to commit acts of terrorism than the flag wavers. Unless of course the flag wavers are just doing it to cover their true intentions.... maybe we should signal all of them out for special treatment too.

All government keep lists of citizens to be watched. The scary thing here is that the current US administration obviously doesn't feel the need to pretend it doesn't. That right there is the most dangerous aspect of this story as it suggests that they feel strong enough to openly "inconvenience" ordinary citizens who protest against them and feel that enough people will say, well it must be for a good reason or they are looking after security. ot good.

Precisely. Most of the sheep - uhm, citizens, want to trust the government. So most will rationalize that the special checks of peaceful dissenters are good for public safety. Once this gets normalized, then what? Perhaps the known peace protesters will have to start wearing special symbols, just so the public can be warned that a potential terrorist is in their midsts, and so the local police can know to keep a special watch on them. Or maybe we can start jailing people who are known dissenters - afterall, they were such a threat that special checks were needed at the airports. Right now that sounds drastic and hysterical, but that is how attrocities such as concentration camps start, the process of normalization. Train the people to think of the groups that the government does not like as a threat, then no one is going to blink when the government decides to openly declare those groups a threat and starts to take actions against them.

Now I'm not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with government policy should be searched etc. however think about it, if a man (or woman) who was known to hate... say.... England, would you not find it justified if English authorities took a few extra precautions with that person? Somehow I don't see how this leads to concentration camps.

Well, no. We haven't pissed people off quite as much as America has so we don't feel the need to monitor everyone who dissents. If you have to monitor your peaceful demonstrators, you are violating the right to free speech, a vital part of any democracy.

Quite frankly, the only reason why the American administration has to take these precautions (or doesn't need to, it depends on your point of view) is because of it's ridiculous foreign policy.

Is it not about time to consult the Founding Fathers? :eek:

Is it not about time to consult the Founding Fathers? :eek:
They're probably under house arrest for being dangerous revolutionaries.

Open up Manzanar again. Round up all the trouble makers and undesireables and stick them behind concertina wire under under the watchful eyes of young men with machine guns. It's the American way.

Open up Manzanar again. Round up all the trouble makers and undesireables and stick them behind concertina wire under under the watchful eyes of young men with machine guns. It's the American way.
Or not...

Or not...
True as we British actually invented the internment camp in the Boer War. Not one of our more illustrious imperial episodes...

Or not...

Sarcasm. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

No, Muslims will be there first. Of course, they might be gone by the time the others get there...

Nice story MK, but all too common these days.

I've already chosen where I'd rather stand if it comes down to deciding which side of the fence you have to be on. You better lock me up too because I won't stand by and say nothing as others are.

Put my name on the list.
Years ago, the left use to accuse the far right of being so paranoid about communism that they would "find a commie under their beds." Now it's the left who is so paranoid that they "find a security agent under their bed." Sounds to me as if this lil tart just likes the publicity of being on somebody's "list."

Sounds like shes a profesional protestor, always walking around presuming to speak for the people of the nation.Newsflash noone cares your protesting!Doen't do anything other than get you tear gased and beaton with batons.Look on the bright side, those conservatives that protestors hate, love to take money out of social assitance and put it into military and police, and what better reasion to get more police than for proveding secureity to meet protestors.Protestors cost citizens millions in tax dollars a year.Everytime you protest, a family doesn't eat.HA!

No, Muslims will be there first. Of course, they might be gone by the time the others get there...


Typically you lock up the dissenters and political criminals before you start religious persecution.

That's the preferred method.

This is all BS though.

we missed you MK.

I knew a couple of "Female Specials." Back in college. Good times.

Um... She didn't "join the Quakers". She was an intern at an organization funded by the Quakers.

I'd like to know what a "female special" is, myself... If she was detained just for exercising her right to freedom of speech (however often she exercises it...) then that's wrong. But one anecdote like this is not enough evidence to go worrying about internment camps. I mean, she could have gotten on the list because of a typo, or because she has the same name as somebody else.

Um... She didn't "join the Quakers". She was an intern at an organization funded by the Quakers.

I'd like to know what a "female special" is, myself... If she was detained just for exercising her right to freedom of speech (however often she exercises it...) then that's wrong. But one anecdote like this is not enough evidence to go worrying about internment camps. I mean, she could have gotten on the list because of a typo, or because she has the same name as somebody else.

I was entered into the databanks of INS in 1981 or 1982, while on my way to NYC for the world's largest antinuclear rally and march. I was 11 years old, accompanied by my father. I am officially deemed a 'political dissident' according to INS. I can still remember the look on the face of the man who input me onto their brand-new computerized system - he exclaimed that he "couldn't believe he was processing an 11-year old".

How do I know this this? In 1988 I was yanked off a bus crossing the border into the US at Niagara Falls and taken to a small cubicle where I was detained for several hours, questioned about my recent involvement in 'Communist' groups (I'd helped my local NDP candidate, and taken out a party membership that year as a matter of course), asked about my involvement in federating the local Toronto Unitarian youth groups (LRY), told flat out that I was lying about my involvement in both organizations, and asked how I was doing with ridding the world of nukes. My bags were searched, my person was searched, my clothes were asked to be removed in a second cubicle, although I was mercifully not asked to submit to any cavity probing. They found nothing in any event - there was nothing TO find. They let me through in the end, seemingly grudgingly.

I think they wanted me to be scared, and I think they wanted to flex their muscle quite a bit. Why? beats me, maybe because they thought they could kill some time. Maybe they thought they were going to save the continental US from lil' ol' me. Whatever the reason, it was interesting that they seemed to know rather a lot about my legitimate affairs, including my political and religious activities. The bit about ridding the world of nukes was easy enough, but where did the rest of the info come from, anyway? I would say most likely CSIS.

Some peopple I've told this to have said, oh come on - you're full of it. The info from INS would clearly indicate that I was labelled a 'dissident' at a ludicrously young age, and so this info should be somewhat discounted, given I'm well over twenty years older. I might have thought that too, prior to my encounter in the cubicle at Niagara Falls. Unfortunately, I think this model - "Well, as this person was a dissident at age 11, there's no telling WHAT they've grown up to become - red alert!!"

The experience cooled me to further journeys south. I made two or three trips to Ohio and western New York in spring and summer of 2001, but since then, I haven't bothered. For me the States is now just an abstraction. I refuse to travel anywhere that requires me to be fingerscanned, iris-scanned, or subject to facial recognition software. Why, because I have something to fear?

Yes, I do have something to fear. I've already been affected by it once. Do I want to play a game of roulette with my freedom where the US is concerned? Fuck, no. I'm not freakin' Nelson Mandela of the north, here. I wouldn't want to be dumped in a Cuban dog-kennel because I've attended one too many demos for the liking of some bureaucratic border bonehead with a paranoid, racist axe to grind for things he personally doesn't consider right.

*rrr-r-r-r-a-a-A-A-W-W-R*

Oops, all those memories have come flooding back and now I'm angry again. So anyway, I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, SURE it could've been a typo...SURE it could've been a mistake. I just wouldn't COUNT on either of those possibilities as anything other than very, very long shots, indeed.

Seems it always comes down to freedom or security. I personally wouldn't want to give up any personal freedoms for some extra so-called "security." I'm more nervous of the actions of my own government then I am of terrorists. I certainly aren't afraid of any protesters going nuts. Government watches to much TV or reads too many Tom Clancy novels.

however think about it, if a man (or woman) who was known to hate... say.... England, would you not find it justified if English authorities took a few extra precautions with that person?
Are you trying to say that Molly Little hates America? Obviously she is patriotic and trying to cleanse her country of corruption and evil.

I agree however that it's extreme hyperbole to connect this with concentration camps. But it's a MKULTRA thread - what do you expect?

Years ago, the left use to accuse the far right of being so paranoid about communism that they would "find a commie under their beds." Now it's the left who is so paranoid that they "find a security agent under their bed." Sounds to me as if this lil tart just likes the publicity of being on somebody's "list."

there is a distinct and systemic pattern to the detentions and searches and time-wasting tactics. this isn't the first of such incidents - all sorts of peace activists (and i'm talking like catholic nuns and such here) and green party members, as well as a number of left wing democrats have made their way onto the no fly lists. however, this is still minor league stuff compared to what they do to us anarchists, or the immigrants who have gotten the worst end of it.

in terms of anarchists, we've had a number of people kidnapped off the street and held for a week or so, just to make sure we don't go to some protest or other. as well as mass arrests of people sitting in parks or at permitted marches. because these arrests are all highly illegal, and the system isn't totally overrun by the fascists quite yet, we usually get the judges to throw most of the cases out if they ever get to trial, and a couple years later we win our lawsuits. but the precedent has already been formed that it is ok to round people up and hold them for no reason. the fbi has also admitted to keeping tabs on a number of us and infiltrating a few of our prisoner support groups and such. for those that don't remember, the fbi has nearly constantly been involved in illegal activities against dissident groups - nearly everybody from the weather underground got off free because of the shit the fbi pulled, and these were people that bombed the capitol building.

many legal immigrants haven't been so lucky. again, rounding them up for no reason at all has already become acceptable, but here they aren't necessarily let go when the government realizes it has nothing on them. those that aren't just shoved into cells without communication for months or years are sometimes deported back to countries they were fleeing from (and in at least one case, had never been to), where they are imprisoned and sometimes tortured for no reason at all.

it ain't paranoia when shit is actually going down.

Well, for an anarchist, you seem remarkably alive and able to post.

If things were really as bad as you say, the first thing to go would be your right to post your swill, and the next thing to go would be the chair under your feet when the secret police teach you to dance in the air.

Well, for an anarchist, you seem remarkably alive and able to post.

If things were really as bad as you say, the first thing to go would be your right to post your swill, and the next thing to go would be the chair under your feet when the secret police teach you to dance in the air.

oh? how bad did i say things have gotten? did you even read my post?

Were you deported to a country where you faced imprisonment and torture? Were you held without trial for an indefinite period of time on no charges?BTW, they can do this in most European countries far easier than in the US.

Have you been shot by the secret courts/tribunals? Spent time in a cage at Guantanamo?

No, I bet you're hanging out on a college campus eating Twinkies and posting on the Internet with a poster of Bakunin on the wall and a blow-up doll of Noam Chomsky on your bed.

Were you deported to a country where you faced imprisonment and torture? Were you held without trial for an indefinite period of time on no charges?BTW, they can do this in most European countries far easier than in the US.
Er... well whether or not that is true they haven't so that doesn't really make the point.

Well, for an anarchist, you seem remarkably alive and able to post.

If things were really as bad as you say, the first thing to go would be your right to post your swill, and the next thing to go would be the chair under your feet when the secret police teach you to dance in the air.
Do not flamebait.

Tactical Grace
Game Moderator

Were you deported to a country where you faced imprisonment and torture? Were you held without trial for an indefinite period of time on no charges?BTW, they can do this in most European countries far easier than in the US.

The Hell you say.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Tell it to Maher Arar.

You got something to support your claim about 'most European countries', or are you just blowing smoke out your ass?

So in the name of national security we should just overturn one of the basic tenents of American belief and start working from a guilty until proven innocent paradigm? How far should this go? Maybe we should start suspecting everyone who isn't waving flags and actively praising our government - afterall, those silent ones are much more likely to commit acts of terrorism than the flag wavers. Unless of course the flag wavers are just doing it to cover their true intentions.... maybe we should signal all of them out for special treatment too.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but the government does have the right to watch you while you're in public, and they do have the right to search, given probable cause. Perhaps you would prefer that they didn't search anybody at airports.

Probable cause shouldn't extend to someone such as the focus of the OP.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but the government does have the right to watch you while you're in public, and they do have the right to search, given probable cause. Perhaps you would prefer that they didn't search anybody at airports.
But should they have the right to compile lists of people excercising their democratic right to disagree and who break no laws?

The Hell you say.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Tell it to Maher Arar.

You got something to support your claim about 'most European countries', or are you just blowing smoke out your ass?
One case doth not a pattern make, nor one suspect an indictment of the system.

But should they have the right to compile lists of people excercising their democratic right to disagree and who break no laws?
Of course! Why would they not?

Were you deported to a country where you faced imprisonment and torture? Were you held without trial for an indefinite period of time on no charges?BTW, they can do this in most European countries far easier than in the US.

Have you been shot by the secret courts/tribunals? Spent time in a cage at Guantanamo?

no. did i claim that i should have been?

btw, i graduated from college a couple years ago. not all of us are between 16 and 20, you know.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but the government does have the right to watch you while you're in public, and they do have the right to search, given probable cause. Perhaps you would prefer that they didn't search anybody at airports.

I know I would.

It didn't take 9/11 for me to understand that there are risks we take even getting out of bed in the morning, let alone setting foot outside our front doors. I always just accepted the risks, and tried to remain on top of things like my personal safety.

Once the job of coccooning North America is complete, it's really only a matter of time before the biggest grubs get down to the business of devouring the smaller ones trapped inside with them.

Are you a big grub? Are you sure the other grubs see you that way? That's important inside the coccoon.

Well, for starters, in Britain we have part 4 of the Anti-terrorism Crime and Security Act 2001. We don't have anything like that in the US.

And chief constables (with the home secretary's approval) designate whole cities and counties for stop and search without even suspicion (if "expedient to preventing terrorism"). The entire Metropolitan police area appears to have been so designated on a rolling basis since February of 2001. These designations are made in secret (with no judicial or even parliamentary warrant) and the powers used to harass peace protesters.

Can't do that in the US, either. Blunkett is well on the way to having a Britain with civil rights similar to that of the former East Germany.

You don't have free speech in France or Germany. I dare you to get up on a street corner in either country (doesn't matter which) and spout off about whether or not the Holocaust was real. You don't have to fully deny it - just raise the doubt.

While the Holocaust WAS real, here in America we let the idiots have their say as well. We don't throw them into jail for saying the wrong thing.

I know I would.

It didn't take 9/11 for me to understand that there are risks we take even getting out of bed in the morning, let alone setting foot outside our front doors. I always just accepted the risks, and tried to remain on top of things like my personal safety.

Agreed, but I had a feeling that wasn't the viewpoint of the person that I was quoting.

For the rest of you, if you'll go find my response two pages back, you'll see that I point out that most violent protesters begin as peaceful protesters. Do you believe that the government is responsible for crime reaction or crime prevention?

sorry, mkultra, but its WAY too late for these to be the first people put into bush's concentration camp

we already have a bunch at guantanamo bay

there was an article in the paper yesterday about the report given to the president by the international committee of the red cross.

"but the red cross, which is the only independent monitor allowed to visit the facility, refused to confirm or deny a NYT account the the ICRC report described the psychological and physical coercion used at guantanamo as 'tantamount to torture'

a prominent new york attorney working closely with defense department lawyers who have seen the report, however, confirmed the characterization and said it raised new concerns about doctors violating medical ethics in pointing out prisoners' weaknesses to interrogators"

(obviously i just typed that by hand from the article in the albuquerque journal)

these people have been in prison for 3 years pretty much, they know NOTHING useful now. its time to prosecute or let them GO.

it is starting to remind me of the treatment of US pows in vietnam, tortured (for real, not just sort of) for years after they could ever have any useful information. we need to be better than this.

You are right about the stop and search rules and I didn't catch that you meant that as well. As for the detention of foreign nationals suspected of terrorism that is being challenged in the courts and so far the government is losing the case. However those people can choose to leave for their native country (perhaps not that much of a choice) whereas the Guantanamo Bay detainees do not and were imprisoned in contravention of the Geneva Convention.
In most of Europe (including France) it is not illegal to deny the Holocaust but it is illegal to incite racial hatred so that whilst you can say this you may not say it for example outside a synagogue or in a city with a Jewish population. If someone were to state that on national television then the way they said it would be very important. If they said it in an infalmmatory way then they break the law. If they can manage to say it in such a way that it is a point of view or an historical interpretation they can. Possibly very difficult to do but it helps minorities feel included and protected giving us greater social cohesion and stability.

One case doth not a pattern make, nor one suspect an indictment of the system.

One man's unjustified torture and imprisonment in a foreign country IS an indictment of the system. That he was racially profiled in the first place DOES establish a pattern, Eutrusca.

Tu reves en couleurs encore un fois, monsieur.

Xenasia, I just wanted to get the point across that there are other police states or "nearly" police states or "well on the way to" police states *other* than the US.

The irony I remember in Germany was the fact that the US Army bookstores sold (as a matter of historical reference) copies of Mein Kampf.

It was illegal to possess it in Germany. Governments are more afraid, in general, of ideas than they are of people.

Xenasia, I just wanted to get the point across that there are other police states or "nearly" police states or "well on the way to" police states *other* than the US.

The irony I remember in Germany was the fact that the US Army bookstores sold (as a matter of historical reference) copies of Mein Kampf.

It was illegal to possess it in Germany. Governments are more afraid, in general, of ideas than they are of people.
I do see your point. Fortunately I think we are a long way off, and I include the US in that statement, from living in police states but I do think it is important to question what governments do when they collect information on us as the danger is always there that that could develop. I think it is important that ideas are not illegal but the use of ideas is important to any state which is why I would never ban any book but I would support the monitoring of any extremist party. I fully understand why political activities of citizens might be of interest to a state and were I in their shoes I would want to do the same. However there does need to be a control on the state as well so that it does not go too far. Even small transgressions deserve close attention for this reason.

I think we are a long way off, and I include the US in that statement, from living in police states ..

Long may you (and all of us) enjoy the freedom to express such a sentiment, Xenasia. I am not so certain of this.

Perhaps my own encounter with border thugs has coloured my perceptions.

Long may you (and all of us) enjoy the freedom to express such a sentiment, Xenasia. I am not so certain of this.

Perhaps my own encounter with border thugs has coloured my perceptions.

Encounter with the border police? Ooh! Describe! Can it beat my being searched by dudes with machine guns?

Considering that I was once a dude with a machinegun, I find you amusing.

Considering that I was once a dude with a machinegun, I find you amusing.
wait for the punchline after he responds...it's good, I swear

Encounter with the border police? Ooh! Describe! Can it beat my being searched by dudes with machine guns?

See post # 58 on the previous page. No, it doesn't beat being searched by dudes armed with machine-guns. But it was shocking, considering it happened nearly sixteen years ago - when there was no threat from without to justify the treatment I received.

Sorry, no punchline. Just memories.

See post # 58 on the previous page. No, it doesn't beat being searched by dudes armed with machine-guns. But it was shocking, considering it happened nearly sixteen years ago - when there was no threat from without to justify the treatment I received.

Sorry, no punchline. Just memories.
Which post number again?

The searchers were french. When I came back into the US the guards didn't have visible machine guns and nothing got searched!

Having searched more than my fair share of people (in the late 1980s), and dealt with more protesters than I wanted to (well, the German Polizei did the dealing - after all, it is completely legal for them to beat people senseless after three warnings, and it wasn't legal for me to do anything except stand there), I find complaints about the unfairness of things just this side of funny - sometimes.

I distinctly remember protesters hanging on to truck axles to prevent hem from being moved through the third warning. And then the polizei beating the living tar out of them. And then the complaints.

I would see protesting as a right. Blocking trucks, no. Standing there with signs and yelling, yes. Beating protesters, no.

There seem to be too many people, however, who think that somehow the world should be just and fair, and it just ain't fair.

Reminds me of that BBC cameraman who was shot by Israeli soldiers at night in the West Bank. In a remarkable act of Darwinism, he approached the Israeli soldiers in the dark, waving a flashlight at night vision equipped troops (good way to blind them and make them nervous). Due to the flashlight, they couldn't tell he was wearing a vest marked "TV", so they shot him.

The complaint by his companion sounded so unrealistic and naive to me. Of course he got shot - it's a war zone. People get killed in wars. Journalists don't have an easy out.

And in the conflicts of the future, people are going to have their rights violated, and it's not going to be just or fair.

Sorry, d-uh...post number 41. Where'd that other number come from? Why'd I type the wrong one...

My bad.

I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but the government does have the right to watch you while you're in public, and they do have the right to search, given probable cause. Perhaps you would prefer that they didn't search anybody at airports.

Disagreeing with the government and participating or even organizing lawful, peaceful protests (exercising a constitutionally granted right) is not probable cause!

Interesting, this thread continued with not so much as an aknowledgement of my previous post. Was it poorly written or did it miss the point somehow?

I'm curious, because many of the people who defended the government actions continued to phrase their argruments with points I thought I had addressed. Was my post ignored because it wasn't effective or shut out because you had no proper answer for my concerns?

I mean, it was way back on page 2 or something...Was I just ignored? That hurts my feelings ;). Seriously folks, what happened?

Wow MKULTRA, why aren't you in one of Bush's concentration camps yet?

And your thread title is flaming enough

Interesting, this thread continued with not so much as an aknowledgement of my previous post. Was it poorly written or did it miss the point somehow?

I'm curious, because many of the people who defended the government actions continued to phrase their argruments with points I thought I had addressed. Was my post ignored because it wasn't effective or shut out because you had no proper answer for my concerns?

I mean, it was way back on page 2 or something...Was I just ignored? That hurts my feelings ;). Seriously folks, what happened?

I don't think they get the "non-regulated" part. They assume that it is regulated by laws while overlooking the fact that it is the executive branch which is supposed to enforce the laws - something that the current executive branch is not only abysmally failing to do but actively working against in the promotion of its agenda.

But one anecdote like this is not enough evidence to go worrying about internment camps. I mean, she could have gotten on the list because of a typo, or because she has the same name as somebody else.

You clearly don't live in the same world MKULTRA does. In his world, any minor incident is a harbinger of concentration camps and totalitarian dicatatorship.

(To avoid any confusion, the rest of this post is directed to MKULTRA.)

Heck, I had to stand at the O'Hare check-in counter for nearly thirty minutes the day before Thanksgiving while they ran a background check on me. Why? Who knows? There were at least two other people flying United with the same name as me that day, I was traveling alone with two carry-ons and no checked luggage... the point is, I'm not going to get all worked up over it. Molly Little (hardly a rarer or more distinctive name than mine) wants to complain because she was subjected to the same kind of security checks that are a matter of routine in many other countries? Please.

MK, ask yourself this: If dissenters were deliberately targeted just because they're dissenters, wouldn't we see a lot more of these cases? Imagine a Venn diagram in which one circle represents vocal dissenters in America, the other circle represents the group of people subjected to random additional security checks, and Molly Little is the intersection of the two groups. Isn't this at least as valid as the idea that Molly Little and people like her are going to be put in concentration camps? And even if she had to go through an extra check because of her protest activities, it's not a problem unique to the Bush administration. It's been happening for years.

Please, salvage what little credibility you have left and stop using such loaded language when you don't have the facts to back it up.

Sounds like shes a profesional protestor, always walking around presuming to speak for the people of the nation.Newsflash noone cares your protesting!Doen't do anything other than get you tear gased and beaton with batons.Look on the bright side, those conservatives that protestors hate, love to take money out of social assitance and put it into military and police, and what better reasion to get more police than for proveding secureity to meet protestors.Protestors cost citizens millions in tax dollars a year.Everytime you protest, a family doesn't eat.HA!
meanwhile--protesting is one of the single most patriotic thing anyone can do...

we missed you MK.
I missed you more

Return of the Blacklist
Providence Journal

Molly Little is a "Female Special."

She didn't know. She didn't seek the title. She found out about it at the airport in Portland, Maine.

Little is from South Kingstown, R.I., a freshman at Colby College, and she doesn't like a lot of things her government is doing. So she demonstrates and asks questions and is drawn to people who share her outrage. Last year, she did an internship with the American Friends Service Committee, the organization founded by those peace-loving Quakers.

She made news with some friends last April when she took part in a symbolic washing of the United States flag at the Rhode Island State House.

"We're saying we're the future and we want to cleanse the United States of what it represents right now," she said at the time.

But she has found that speaking out and being very public in her opposition to government policies, while allegedly every citizen's right, can make her stand out in a crowd.

On Nov. 18, she was headed to Fort Benning, Ga., to take part in the annual nonviolent demonstration against The School of the Americas, that shadowy operation that is a training school for so many Latin American soldiers eager to learn the American way of keeping insurgencies in check. The school has been renamed the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, but that euphemistic turn has not stopped thousands of people from showing up every year to say the school is a very bad and un-American idea.

At the Portland airport, Little found that maybe, just maybe, a person can no longer speak out without getting his or her name on a list.

She was running a little late when she got to the airport due to a speeding ticket. At the Delta ticket counter, the attendant asked if she was in the military because she was on a list for an extra security check. The attendant spent some time on the phone but could not tell her why she was on the list.

It was when she got to the checkpoint on the way to the boarding gate that she found she was a "female special." That's what yet another attendant yelled out after Little presented her boarding pass and driver's license.

"I didn't know whether to burst out laughing or slap her or run away," Little says. "But before I could make a choice, I was whisked out of the line of harmless citizens and into an area enclosed by shoulder-height walls."

She says she was patted down and scanned with a metal detector. Her carry-on bag was emptied out, and her textbooks and journal were flipped through by a security person. Again, she could get no satisfactory answer as to why she was being singled out.

She made it to Fort Benning, and it was worth the hassle. She was among a large group of people who shared her deep concerns about where the country is going.

At the airport in Atlanta for the flight home, she was once again directed to a separate room and patted down. The people who did it were very nice, she says.

But still, she is angry about her treatment. She was never told why she made the list. "The idea that I could be dangerous, that I could hurt other human beings, is preposterous," Little says.

But, she concedes, what she went through was merely an aggravation. Many others are being detained for weeks and months and harassed on a daily basis, she says.

And she admits that in times like these, the best place to be is among those who question and challenge and get pulled out of line at airports because they refuse to join the frightened and the silent.

"There is a growing community of people who are outraged at what is going on," Little says.

We can only hope.

Her experience brings back memories of that heated and angry time more than 30 years ago when outspoken critics of President Nixon and the Vietnam War had their names put on an enemies list. There were reporters, priests, entertainers _ people who insisted that the Constitution still protected the right to speak out.

Then, too, a place on the list was considered by many a rock-solid credential of true citizenship. In a mad, paranoid time, it was considered best to stand with those who insisted on speaking out and risking the often harsh consequences.

Now, it seems, there is another list. It might never be officially confirmed, but when an 18-year-old from Rhode Island with a mind of her own can be detained at an airport without explanation it's difficult to escape the feeling that somebody's out there taking names.

It's frightening. But it's also encouraging to know that Molly Little moves on, talking up the need to get angry and get moving and perhaps get on the list.

A Female Special indeed.


Is she the same woman that complained about "abuse" when she admitted to resisting arrest at the same Demonstration at Ft. Benning Last year. I Believe you made a thread about that one as well.

:confused: I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but the government does have the right to watch you while you're in public, and they do have the right to search, given probable cause. Perhaps you would prefer that they didn't search anybody at airports.
its not a matter of not being searched its a matter of people being singled out for special searches just because they went to a protest--thats harassment

meanwhile--protesting is one of the single most patriotic thing anyone can do...

Explain that one to me Mkultra. Tell me how protesting against your nation could possibly be one of the single most displays of love for your nation?

Regardless, Miss Molly or whoever, was probably singled out because of a random check. I had my bags opened and was given the patdown at airports twice already. It's a security measure. It makes you safer. Get over it.

Also, when you finally get a respectable source, perhaps you'll gain more respect.

:confused:
its not a matter of not being searched its a matter of people being singled out for special searches just because they went to a protest--thats harassment

...and of course you have proof that the government gives a shit about one confused little girl? Why aren't they hunting down michael moore? Why aren't they hunting down you? Why? Because they don't care. They have better things to do.

Agreed, but I had a feeling that wasn't the viewpoint of the person that I was quoting.

For the rest of you, if you'll go find my response two pages back, you'll see that I point out that most violent protesters begin as peaceful protesters. Do you believe that the government is responsible for crime reaction or crime prevention?
98% of protest violence is started by the cops themselfs

98% of protest violence is started by the cops themselfs


Hah!

Where do you base that statistic

Do you know anything about Riot Control? anything at all

I've been trained for Riot Control, and the last thing we want to do is antagonize the crowd. Granted we try to look as intimidating as possible usually but we really do use minimal force.

Sorry a Riot Baton is a bit less deadly then an M-16 or a Shotgun

sorry, mkultra, but its WAY too late for these to be the first people put into bush's concentration camp

we already have a bunch at guantanamo bay

there was an article in the paper yesterday about the report given to the president by the international committee of the red cross.

"but the red cross, which is the only independent monitor allowed to visit the facility, refused to confirm or deny a NYT account the the ICRC report described the psychological and physical coercion used at guantanamo as 'tantamount to torture'

a prominent new york attorney working closely with defense department lawyers who have seen the report, however, confirmed the characterization and said it raised new concerns about doctors violating medical ethics in pointing out prisoners' weaknesses to interrogators"

(obviously i just typed that by hand from the article in the albuquerque journal)

these people have been in prison for 3 years pretty much, they know NOTHING useful now. its time to prosecute or let them GO.

it is starting to remind me of the treatment of US pows in vietnam, tortured (for real, not just sort of) for years after they could ever have any useful information. we need to be better than this.I heard a story that the doctors at Guantanamo lerned that one guy was scared of rats so the way they tortured him was they put a cage filled with rats around his head

I heard a story that the doctors at Guantanamo lerned that one guy was scared of rats so the way they tortured him was they put a cage filled with rats around his head


Links?

Sources?

Inuendo?

Is she the same woman that complained about "abuse" when she admitted to resisting arrest at the same Demonstration at Ft. Benning Last year. I Believe you made a thread about that one as well.
oh yeah I remember that--the woman who was touched becuase she was at a protest

oh yeah I remember that--the woman who was touched becuase she was at a protest


Oh and she thought they'd be polite when she trespasses on a Military Base?

Riiiiiiiiiight

Explain that one to me Mkultra. Tell me how protesting against your nation could possibly be one of the single most displays of love for your nation?

Regardless, Miss Molly or whoever, was probably singled out because of a random check. I had my bags opened and was given the patdown at airports twice already. It's a security measure. It makes you safer. Get over it.

Also, when you finally get a respectable source, perhaps you'll gain more respect.
protest is the blood in the veins of all democracys--also I got it from a respectable source called Propaganda Matrix

protest is the blood in the veins of all democracys--also I got it from a respectable source called Propaganda Matrix

You must be kidding...and not about the protest thing. Propaganda Matrix? Oh yes. Very respectable.

*rolls eyes*

protest is the blood in the veins of all democracys--also I got it from a respectable source called Propaganda Matrix
Propaganda Matrix, eh? Never heard of it. And if I've never heard of something, it's clearly way out there.

And the name tends to give me quirks too, I'd be willing to bet they're fairly biased.

Hah!

Where do you base that statistic

Do you know anything about Riot Control? anything at all

I've been trained for Riot Control, and the last thing we want to do is antagonize the crowd. Granted we try to look as intimidating as possible usually but we really do use minimal force.

Sorry a Riot Baton is a bit less deadly then an M-16 or a Shotgun
during the Battle of Seattle rioting cops beat an 88 year old woman knitting an American flag right in the street

protest is the blood in the veins of all democracys--also I got it from a respectable source called Propaganda Matrix



I hope your joking about Calling Something Known as "Propaganda Matrix" a reliable source.

Basically it sounds like liberal whining, and to think I used to be Liberal. The army has a way of changing that I guess.

during the Battle of Seattle rioting cops beat an 88 year old woman knitting an American flag right in the street


Link?

Story?


I guess umm she was blocking traffic and refused to be moved. And I like to see your definition of "Beating"

Links?

Sources?

Inuendo?
all the right people are saying it on Air America and in NY political circles

all the right people are saying it on Air America
Air America is a low caliber radio station that is failing to attract an audience outside of devout followers. It isn't funny, it isn't quirky, it's just dumb. And the facts presented there are about as true as what Rush Limbaugh says.

It's clearly failed to make it to Ohio political circles...even at my University I haven't heard any anarchists babble about it.

Hey, better get all your protesting in soon MKULTRA, after Bush deploys his War Droids of d00m!!! (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=378688) our freedoms are going to disappear faster then a puddle of water on a hot day. :rolleyes:

Oh and she thought they'd be polite when she trespasses on a Military Base?

Riiiiiiiiiight
her taxes pay for that base

all the right people are saying it on Air America and in NY political circles


"All the right people"

NY Political Circles.


ummmmmmm wow.

You should really look at the stuff your spouting, its Propaganda, period. I've never heard of Air America, well I did see the Movie (good movie btw, one of Mel's better)

Propaganda Matrix, eh? Never heard of it. And if I've never heard of something, it's clearly way out there.

And the name tends to give me quirks too, I'd be willing to bet they're fairly biased.
no theyre VERY objective-theyre not owned by evil corporations

her taxes pay for that base


And our blood lets her pay those taxes.

And if you look at her percentage of the taxes used to keep that base open, well i guess she's entitled to a dandilion off of that base.


Do you even understand what the Military is for?

Do you understand why some stuff needs to be Secret

Were you born without Mental Retardation?

her taxes pay for that base

Right, so anyone should just be able to walk into a base? And when one of those people just happen to blow themselves up because they hate the American government/people/way of life/policy/ect., you'll be here saying how stupid the US military is :rolleyes:

no theyre VERY objective-theyre not owned by evil corporations
No, they're owned by a bunch of kooks, who formed together to make a radio station that will make money. Hence a corporation.

Air America is a low caliber radio station that is failing to attract an audience outside of devout followers. It isn't funny, it isn't quirky, it's just dumb. And the facts presented there are about as true as what Rush Limbaugh says.

It's clearly failed to make it to Ohio political circles...even at my University I haven't heard any anarchists babble about it.
Air America is the voice of the educated blue states. The Red States are kept ignorant thru their hate radio

Air America is the voice of the educated blue states. The Red States are kept ignorant thru their hate radio
I happen to live in a red state and I don't listen to this "hate radio." Unless by hate radio you mean NPR on WOSU, or the local rock station that is.

Right, so anyone should just be able to walk into a base? And when one of those people just happen to blow themselves up because they hate the American government/people/way of life/policy/ect., you'll be here saying how stupid the US military is :rolleyes:
maybe she wanted to inspect HER base

Air America is the voice of the educated blue states. The Red States are kept ignorant thru their hate radio

ohhhhhhh so your dividing us into color coated states.


Ever thought it wasn't that simple

I'm from Ohio, Kerry did very well here, didn't win, but did very well.

Are we a Red State or a Blue State?

No, they're owned by a bunch of kooks, who formed together to make a radio station that will make money. Hence a corporation.
its a people owned corporation and they dont spout propaganda that only serves the interests of the parasite class. They speak truth to power

I happen to live in a red state and I don't listen to this "hate radio." Unless by hate radio you mean NPR on WOSU, or the local rock station that is.
no those are good

maybe she wanted to inspect HER base



Ok, is she alone paying the Salaries of the Tens of Thousands of Military Personell living, working or training on that Base?

Is she wealthy enough to pay for the Training of Every Infantry, Airborne and Ranger Soldier in the United States Army, as well as a good many of the Snipers?

Does she finance personally every foot of perimeter fence, every inch of Constintina Wire?

Do all Soldiers on that base swear Personally loyalty to her


How is it HER base?

its a people owned corporation and they dont spout propaganda that only serves the interests of the parasite class. They speak truth to power
People like you, mind you, I have nothing to do with Air America. And they speak YOUR perceived truth.

ohhhhhhh so your dividing us into color coated states.


Ever thought it wasn't that simple

I'm from Ohio, Kerry did very well here, didn't win, but did very well.

Are we a Red State or a Blue State?
Ohio is purple

Ok, is she alone paying the Salaries of the Tens of Thousands of Military Personell living, working or training on that Base?

Is she wealthy enough to pay for the Training of Every Infantry, Airborne and Ranger Soldier in the United States Army, as well as a good many of the Snipers?

Does she finance personally every foot of perimeter fence, every inch of Constintina Wire?

Do all Soldiers on that base swear Personally loyalty to her


How is it HER base?because shes OF THE PEOPLE. In a democracy the people are supposed to be serviced on or off military bases

People like you, mind you, I have nothing to do with Air America. And they speak YOUR perceived truth.
does your job at homeland security give you a good retirement plan?

because shes OF THE PEOPLE. In a democracy the people are supposed to be serviced on or off military bases
First of all, Welcome to a Republic.

Second. Military bases carry national defense secrets. The rights and freedoms of the people are protected by these secrets. And if these secrets were to get out, the rights and freedoms could be lost.

does your job at homeland security give you a good retirement plan?
WTF? Ok, my future plans may include a job at the HSA, but I'm not currently employed there. I'm a bloody college student. I work at the desk of the University medical center and answer phones!

because shes OF THE PEOPLE. In a democracy the people are supposed to be serviced on or off military bases


Serviced?

Get Head?

I don't get it.

First of all, Welcome to a Republic.

Second. Military bases carry national defense secrets. The rights and freedoms of the people are protected by these secrets. And if these secrets were to get out, the rights and freedoms could be lost.
thats the mantra of every police state

WTF? Ok, my future plans may include a job at the HSA, but I'm not currently employed there. I'm a bloody college student. I work at the desk of the University medical center and answer phones!
for the CIA...

thats the mantra of every police state
that's the mantra of every state.

for the CIA...
for a doctors office.

for a doctors office.
at camp X ray

at camp X ray

HSA, CIA and US Army, where else do I work?

Seriously, guys, stop comparing Bush to Hitler. Like most Jews, I'm a Democrat. It's ok to oppose Bush, but Hitler is in a small class with people like Mao Tse-Tung, Stalin, and other TRUE dictators. Bush may be pretty far right, but he's nowhere near fascism.

Seriously, guys, stop comparing Bush to Hitler. Like most Jews, I'm a Democrat. It's ok to oppose Bush, but Hitler is in a small class with people like Mao Tse-Tung, Stalin, and other TRUE dictators. Bush may be pretty far right, but he's nowhere near fascism.
I might advise the use of the word "guy." Only MKULTRA is on the Bush=Hitler wagon.

HSA, CIA and US Army, where else do I work?
your qualified to work in all of these places with your degree from the school of assassins

Seriously, guys, stop comparing Bush to Hitler. Like most Jews, I'm a Democrat. It's ok to oppose Bush, but Hitler is in a small class with people like Mao Tse-Tung, Stalin, and other TRUE dictators. Bush may be pretty far right, but he's nowhere near fascism.
you havent seen him in his second term yet with a neocon nazi majority in congress. The fun is just about to hit the fan

Hey man, I'm technically part of the DoD

Does that Make Me Evil?

Someday I'll be part of the HSA

your qualified to work in all of these places with your degree from the school of assassins


Nah, only Infantry go to that school.

Hey man, I'm technically part of the DoD

Does that Make Me Evil?

Someday I'll be part of the HSA
I dont know--are you spying on us?

Nah, only Infantry go to that school.
where does the cavalry go?

I dont know--are you spying on us?


Military Police typically don't enforce law on Civilians


Oh and I was trained at Ft. Leonard Wood, Not Ft. Benning So I haven't been to the "school of Assassins"

where does the cavalry go?


Not Benning, other than that I'm not Sure, probably somewhere in a Desert or Ft. Knox

Military Police typically don't enforce law on Civilians


Oh and I was trained at Ft. Leonard Wood, Not Ft. Benning So I haven't been to the "school of Assassins"
You should arrest Donald Rumsfeld for authorizing soldiers to torture detainees

your qualified to work in all of these places with your degree from the school of assassins
Degree? I have a degree? That rocks! I don't have to put up with Ohio State for 3 2/3 more years!

Not Benning, other than that I'm not Sure, probably somewhere in a Desert or Ft. Knox
not Ft Knox--thats where they keep all the Gold

You should arrest Donald Rumsfeld for authorizing soldiers to torture detainees


He's a Civilian

I'm a PFC anyway, I need an officer with me to Apprehend another Officer, and You know what. Like him or not he's my boss. I Follow orders unless they are illegal.

not Ft Knox--thats where they keep all the Gold

And thats where Tank Soldiers go for Basic and AIT.


Home of 19K's

Benning is the home of
11B's and 11C's


Leonard Wood is the home of
31B's and 31E's

http://www.knox.army.mil

He's a Civilian

I'm a PFC anyway, I need an officer with me to Apprehend another Officer, and You know what. Like him or not he's my boss. I Follow orders unless they are illegal.
He gives illegal orders too. The Bush administrations forces the military to lie to the media in what they call psy-ops

He gives illegal orders too. The Bush administrations forces the military to lie to the media in what they call psy-ops


Hell I'll never talk to the media unless ordered too.

I HATE THE MEDIA

Benning is the home of
11B's and 11C's
and murderers

and murderers


no, you mean Rangers, not murders.


Umm we train soldiers not murderers.

Hell I'll never talk to the media unless ordered too.

I HATE THE MEDIA
me2--the media lies for the Beast

me2--the media lies for the Beast

And you just spout off things you hear without thinking, your no better.

no, you mean Rangers, not murders.


Umm we train soldiers not murderers.
unless theyre being trained to rape nuns in latin america

And you just spout off things you hear without thinking, your no better.
but at least what I say is ratical

God, where's Che Guevera when you need him?

but at least what I say is ratical


Ratical

you mean Radical

RADICAL IS NOT GOOD BTW.


RADICALISM ALIENATES MORE THAN IT ENVELOPES.

and by your posts i'll say your about 15ish

God, where's Che Guevera when you need him?
the CIA killed him

God, where's Che Guevera when you need him?


on T-Shirts

God, where's Che Guevera when you need him?
on Maddox's logo...and he's got an eyepatch there.

Return of the Blacklist
Providence Journal

Molly Little is a "Female Special."

She didn't know. She didn't seek the title. She found out about it at the airport in Portland, Maine.

Little is from South Kingstown, R.I., a freshman at Colby College, and she doesn't like a lot of things her government is doing. So she demonstrates and asks questions and is drawn to people who share her outrage. Last year, she did an internship with the American Friends Service Committee, the organization founded by those peace-loving Quakers.

She made news with some friends last April when she took part in a symbolic washing of the United States flag at the Rhode Island State House.

"We're saying we're the future and we want to cleanse the United States of what it represents right now," she said at the time.

But she has found that speaking out and being very public in her opposition to government policies, while allegedly every citizen's right, can make her stand out in a crowd.

On Nov. 18, she was headed to Fort Benning, Ga., to take part in the annual nonviolent demonstration against The School of the Americas, that shadowy operation that is a training school for so many Latin American soldiers eager to learn the American way of keeping insurgencies in check. The school has been renamed the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, but that euphemistic turn has not stopped thousands of people from showing up every year to say the school is a very bad and un-American idea.

At the Portland airport, Little found that maybe, just maybe, a person can no longer speak out without getting his or her name on a list.

She was running a little late when she got to the airport due to a speeding ticket. At the Delta ticket counter, the attendant asked if she was in the military because she was on a list for an extra security check. The attendant spent some time on the phone but could not tell her why she was on the list.

It was when she got to the checkpoint on the way to the boarding gate that she found she was a "female special." That's what yet another attendant yelled out after Little presented her boarding pass and driver's license.

"I didn't know whether to burst out laughing or slap her or run away," Little says. "But before I could make a choice, I was whisked out of the line of harmless citizens and into an area enclosed by shoulder-height walls."

She says she was patted down and scanned with a metal detector. Her carry-on bag was emptied out, and her textbooks and journal were flipped through by a security person. Again, she could get no satisfactory answer as to why she was being singled out.

She made it to Fort Benning, and it was worth the hassle. She was among a large group of people who shared her deep concerns about where the country is going.

At the airport in Atlanta for the flight home, she was once again directed to a separate room and patted down. The people who did it were very nice, she says.

But still, she is angry about her treatment. She was never told why she made the list. "The idea that I could be dangerous, that I could hurt other human beings, is preposterous," Little says.

But, she concedes, what she went through was merely an aggravation. Many others are being detained for weeks and months and harassed on a daily basis, she says.

And she admits that in times like these, the best place to be is among those who question and challenge and get pulled out of line at airports because they refuse to join the frightened and the silent.

"There is a growing community of people who are outraged at what is going on," Little says.

We can only hope.

Her experience brings back memories of that heated and angry time more than 30 years ago when outspoken critics of President Nixon and the Vietnam War had their names put on an enemies list. There were reporters, priests, entertainers _ people who insisted that the Constitution still protected the right to speak out.

Then, too, a place on the list was considered by many a rock-solid credential of true citizenship. In a mad, paranoid time, it was considered best to stand with those who insisted on speaking out and risking the often harsh consequences.

Now, it seems, there is another list. It might never be officially confirmed, but when an 18-year-old from Rhode Island with a mind of her own can be detained at an airport without explanation it's difficult to escape the feeling that somebody's out there taking names.

It's frightening. But it's also encouraging to know that Molly Little moves on, talking up the need to get angry and get moving and perhaps get on the list.

A Female Special indeed.

Long (boring) story. We all know why he/she was on the list. And you are on the same list, for our protection. This is one (of a very few) good uses for my tax payments.

The actions of "my" government never cease to disgust me.
NEVER.
It's not good when this doesn't surprise me.

Long (boring) story. We all know why he/she was on the list. And you are on the same list, for our protection. This is one (of a very few) good uses for my tax payments.
So you believe in profiling against people who are advocating AGAINST violence?
I'd be detaining those crazy guys from Montana with like 20 guns each, if it was me deciding.

You don't even need to speak out - you just have to look like you might be Arab, therefore you might be a terrorist, because as we ALL know, ALL Muslims and, therefore Arabs, are terrorists out to destroy western values and freedoms.... [/sarcasm]

In fact, you could have been my cousin. She's as white as they come. She's a mix of Welsh, Irish, Scottish and I think English. Anyway, she was travelling through the New York City airport (I forget which one), when she was suddenly pulled out of line by a security guard. Because she was 18+ at the time, my aunr couldn't go with her.

Luckily they didn't detain her for long, but they did take her in for questioning and did a thorough search of her stuff.

What had she done? Nothing. She had been on a visit to New York City with her family.

They pulled her out of line because she looked like she COULD have been Arab - yeah, dark brown hair with VERY pale skin... I never knew Arabs looked like the pasty-face Englishmen!

So, you don't have to speak out. You just have to exist some times...

My friend was saying that the same thing has happened to his sister 4 times now. She's Jewish, pale white, and doesn't participate in politics.

So you believe in profiling against people who are advocating AGAINST violence?
I'd be detaining those crazy guys from Montana with like 20 guns each, if it was me deciding.

Please sit down, first graders. When you "profile", use factual, historical data. Very often (way above average) "non-violent" agitators cause violence.

98% of protest violence is started by the cops themselfs

Heh. I remember this statistic. You tried it a few months ago. I called you on it, and you couldn't give me a source. I doubt you can now either.

Heh. I remember this statistic. You tried it a few months ago. I called you on it, and you couldn't give me a source. I doubt you can now either.
Don't bother. We know he won't cought up teh link.

Don't bother. We know he won't cought up teh link.

Of course he won't. Nevertheless, he made the assertion, and I'm going to keep pushing it until he gives me a link, admits he made it up, or gets so tangled up in these ridiculous accusations he's making that he chokes to death.

Explain that one to me Mkultra. Tell me how protesting against your nation could possibly be one of the single most displays of love for your nation?



Read what the founders of this nation had to say! Telling people who protest that they are unpatriotic is a mark of a totalitarian idealogy.

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism."
- President Thomas Jefferson

"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from the government.
- Thomas Paine

But they don't want to protect the country from the government, they just want their own guys running it. At least that's what I gather from the stuff that's continually said by barking moonbats.

But they don't want to protect the country from the government, they just want their own guys running it. At least that's what I gather from the stuff that's continually said by barking moonbats.
we want it all

sorry, mkultra, but its WAY too late for these to be the first people put into bush's concentration camp

we already have a bunch at guantanamo bay

there was an article in the paper yesterday about the report given to the president by the international committee of the red cross.

"but the red cross, which is the only independent monitor allowed to visit the facility, refused to confirm or deny a NYT account the the ICRC report described the psychological and physical coercion used at guantanamo as 'tantamount to torture'

a prominent new york attorney working closely with defense department lawyers who have seen the report, however, confirmed the characterization and said it raised new concerns about doctors violating medical ethics in pointing out prisoners' weaknesses to interrogators"

(obviously i just typed that by hand from the article in the albuquerque journal)

these people have been in prison for 3 years pretty much, they know NOTHING useful now. its time to prosecute or let them GO.

it is starting to remind me of the treatment of US pows in vietnam, tortured (for real, not just sort of) for years after they could ever have any useful information. we need to be better than this.
Oh no, anything but bad rap music andf teen pop idols blasted loudly for hours on end. The Horror, the Horror.

You don't even need to speak out - you just have to look like you might be Arab, therefore you might be a terrorist, because as we ALL know, ALL Muslims and, therefore Arabs, are terrorists out to destroy western values and freedoms.... [/sarcasm]

In fact, you could have been my cousin. She's as white as they come. She's a mix of Welsh, Irish, Scottish and I think English. Anyway, she was travelling through the New York City airport (I forget which one), when she was suddenly pulled out of line by a security guard. Because she was 18+ at the time, my aunr couldn't go with her.

Luckily they didn't detain her for long, but they did take her in for questioning and did a thorough search of her stuff.

What had she done? Nothing. She had been on a visit to New York City with her family.

They pulled her out of line because she looked like she COULD have been Arab - yeah, dark brown hair with VERY pale skin... I never knew Arabs looked like the pasty-face Englishmen!

So, you don't have to speak out. You just have to exist some times...



or.............it could be that I don't know, She was randomly chosen? You know they are supposed to search random people.

Heh. I remember this statistic. You tried it a few months ago. I called you on it, and you couldn't give me a source. I doubt you can now either.

i wouldn't go so far as to assign a number to it, but in the experience of pretty much everybody - myself included - what violence there is at protests has typically been started by police. after all there is not other way to clear a street full of people who don't particularly feel like moving besides shoving them and hitting them and shooting at them (or threatening to do so).

of course, people ignore this because, as agents of the state, the police use of violence is automatically presumed to be justified, and any resistance to their violence is automatically presumed to be unjustified. so when dicussing violence, people tend overlook the fact of police use of violence, because it is expected and generally accepted as ok, and focus entirely on the relatively minor use of violence (nearly non-existent in the u.s. global justice and anti-war movements) and non-violent behavior (that falls outside the norms of mainstream permitted protests) of the protestors.

Oh no, anything but bad rap music andf teen pop idols blasted loudly for hours on end. The Horror, the Horror.

Well, being kept incommunicado in a wire-mesh dog kennel in the open air with time-outs for gruelling interrogations must be your idea of a perfect holiday then, I suppose.

Pass the sunblock.

i wouldn't go so far as to assign a number to it, but in the experience of pretty much everybody - myself included - what violence there is at protests has typically been started by police. after all there is not other way to clear a street full of people who don't particularly feel like moving besides shoving them and hitting them and shooting at them (or threatening to do so).

of course, people ignore this because, as agents of the state, the police use of violence is automatically presumed to be justified, and any resistance to their violence is automatically presumed to be unjustified. so when dicussing violence, people tend overlook the fact of police use of violence, because it is expected and generally accepted as ok, and focus entirely on the relatively minor use of violence (nearly non-existent in the u.s. global justice and anti-war movements) and non-violent behavior (that falls outside the norms of mainstream permitted protests) of the protestors.
I love the fact that the police are being made to be the bad guys here. Have you ever talked to one of them? Probably not. In fact, have you ever talked to a riot cop? Once again, probably not. Do you realize that they are as afraid of a riot as you are of them?

They aren't impervious in those "armored" uniforms. Did you know that what they wear at riot situations is little more than a baseball catchers protective equipment? Yeah, being pegged by a bottle, or brick harms them too.

They don't want to beat you down. But, they issue a dispersal order, and a dispersal order is designed to MINIMIZE violence. If the dispersal order is disobeyed, then the group is breaking the law. And the police action is a reaction, not a pre-emptive thing.

And anyways, the police don't issue dispersal orders unless one of two things is occuring. The first is the protest is non-registered. The second is if the protest has already gotten out of hand, and they have only one last choice.

So, go ahead villifying the men and women out there to protect you and me, but when an angry mob comes knocking about a sporting event or something, you beware.

I love the fact that the police are being made to be the bad guys here. Have you ever talked to one of them? Probably not. In fact, have you ever talked to a riot cop? Once again, probably not. Do you realize that they are as afraid of a riot as you are of them?

sure i have. my neighbor is a cop. my brother is in copping school as we speak. and you often get to talking with them when they are forming a barrier around you. they seem to like the overtime hours that all the protest paranoia gets them. some of them are sadistic pricks though.

They don't want to beat you down. But, they issue a dispersal order, and a dispersal order is designed to MINIMIZE violence. If the dispersal order is disobeyed, then the group is breaking the law. And the police action is a reaction, not a pre-emptive thing.

doesn't matter. standing - even if it is deemed criminal - can never be violence in and of itself. swinging a stick at somebody's head is almost always violence, whether it is justified or not. cops are allowed, as enforcers of the state, to respond to non-violent actions with violent ones. therefore, nearly all violence that occurs at protests is started by and committed by the police.

we could compare notes on protest injuries, if you like.

And anyways, the police don't issue dispersal orders unless one of two things is occuring. The first is the protest is non-registered. The second is if the protest has already gotten out of hand, and they have only one last choice.

you haven't been to a protest recently. dispersal orders are arbitrary and are most often used against people sitting in a park or at a rally point at the end of a permitted march. and in many cases the dispersal order is imaginary and retroactively claimed as justification for later police actions, or is impossible as the cops surrounding those ordered to disperse have been ordered to not let anyone leave - see the 2002 dc 'people's strike', the 2001 wef protest in ny, the 2000 republican and democratic national convention protests, april 7 2003 at the oakland docks, etc.

the cops in charge lay down a good line of bullshit about their actions, and the media swallows it whole each time (though they do tend to get critical of it in the aftermath, give it a few months and they'll swallow anything all over again). but the facts just don't support the rosy picture they try to paint.

cops are to blame for riots cause theyre the ones in charge and theyre the ones that start them everytime--the fact is the cops are usually rightwing assholes who disagree with the protesters anyway and theyre just looken for any excuse to crack a few skulls

or.............it could be that I don't know, She was randomly chosen? You know they are supposed to search random people.
Yep, my grandma has managed to be searched every time she goes back to maryland through O'hare. Apparently she looks threatening.

Well, being kept incommunicado in a wire-mesh dog kennel in the open air with time-outs for gruelling interrogations must be your idea of a perfect holiday then, I suppose.

Pass the sunblock.
The area ain't exactly sweltering or freezing. And last time I checked we we trying to get info from them. Oh no, don't question them too harshly, you might hurt their delicate sensibilities.

i wouldn't go so far as to assign a number to it, but in the experience of pretty much everybody - myself included - what violence there is at protests has typically been started by police. after all there is not other way to clear a street full of people who don't particularly feel like moving besides shoving them and hitting them and shooting at them (or threatening to do so).

of course, people ignore this because, as agents of the state, the police use of violence is automatically presumed to be justified, and any resistance to their violence is automatically presumed to be unjustified. so when dicussing violence, people tend overlook the fact of police use of violence, because it is expected and generally accepted as ok, and focus entirely on the relatively minor use of violence (nearly non-existent in the u.s. global justice and anti-war movements) and non-violent behavior (that falls outside the norms of mainstream permitted protests) of the protestors.

And I'm sure a police officer would say that violence at protests is typically started by protestors. I certainly don't doubt that police violence occurs. The degree and frequency of the violence, however, is impossible to determine because each side has their own story.

And MK, I'm still waiting for you to cite a source.

How about me? Am I a right-asshole and a cop? Hm?

http://img51.exs.cx/img51/263/m2fmeinswat.png

Appearances can be deceiving.

doesn't matter. standing - even if it is deemed criminal - can never be violence in and of itself. swinging a stick at somebody's head is almost always violence, whether it is justified or not. cops are allowed, as enforcers of the state, to respond to non-violent actions with violent ones. therefore, nearly all violence that occurs at protests is started by and committed by the police.

we could compare notes on protest injuries, if you like.



hmmmmmm Well I was Taught that the body is divided into 3 colorcoded zones

Red Zones (meaning we are not to hit them, accidents happen, but its not intentional)
They include
Face, Neck, Head, Chest and Armpits(you can kill someone with a hit there)

Yellow Zones (allowed to use them but with caution)
Midsection, ribs, Groin and Back.

Green Zones:
Pretty much everything else.

now, when your wielding a 3 foot stick from behind the shield wall you may already swing at something and the crowd moves or something throws off your swing which cause you to either miss or hit something red.



My favorite way is a Jab to stomach or groin and then just start working the Knees and Shins

cops are to blame for riots cause theyre the ones in charge and theyre the ones that start them everytime--the fact is the cops are usually rightwing assholes who disagree with the protesters anyway and theyre just looken for any excuse to crack a few skulls
Wow another gut busting joke from
MKULTRA

Not saying every cop is good but wow what broad brushstrokes you paint with