NationStates Jolt Archive

A small but still equally rights-invested group is being left out of these goofy sexuality debates.

Male and female aren't the only human 'genders' out there.

A little research and some common knowledge remind us that not everyone is born and raised as a perfectly formed member of one gender or the other. Most people are quite aware of hermaphrodites, for instance, but they're just the tip of the ice burg (try google, and you'll find websites such as http://homepages.utoledo.edu/mcaruso/columns/gender.html ).

An example I read about a few years ago was when a genetic male, with XY chromosomes, has a defective gene, and ends up unable to proccess testosterone properly. The result is basically a female supermodel with a non-functioning, but superficially female set of genitalia. They're tall, slender, firm-breasted, sleek, acne-free, and barely have any body hair.

Now, to all those folks out there who're obssessed with this Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve business... who the hell do the OTHER genders get to marry in your perfect world?

A small but still equally rights-invested group is being left out of these goofy sexuality debates.

Male and female aren't the only human 'genders' out there.

A little research and some common knowledge remind us that not everyone is born and raised as a perfectly formed member of one gender or the other. Most people are quite aware of hermaphrodites, for instance, but they're just the tip of the ice burg (try google, and you'll find websites such as http://homepages.utoledo.edu/mcaruso/columns/gender.html ).

An example I read about a few years ago was when a genetic male, with XY chromosomes, has a defective gene, and ends up unable to proccess testosterone properly. The result is basically a female supermodel with a non-functioning, but superficially female set of genitalia. They're tall, slender, firm-breasted, sleek, acne-free, and barely have any body hair.

Now, to all those folks out there who're obssessed with this Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve business... who the hell do the OTHER genders get to marry in your perfect world?

Who the hell do we get to marry? Why, anyone we want to, sweetie. Let people obsess all they want, I'm not marrying them.

*flashes smile*

Wow, wish I culd be acne-free and supermodelish. I feel cheated, now. Oh well.

A small but still equally rights-invested group is being left out of these goofy sexuality debates.

Male and female aren't the only human 'genders' out there.

A little research and some common knowledge remind us that not everyone is born and raised as a perfectly formed member of one gender or the other. Most people are quite aware of hermaphrodites, for instance, but they're just the tip of the ice burg (try google, and you'll find websites such as http://homepages.utoledo.edu/mcaruso/columns/gender.html ).

An example I read about a few years ago was when a genetic male, with XY chromosomes, has a defective gene, and ends up unable to proccess testosterone properly. The result is basically a female supermodel with a non-functioning, but superficially female set of genitalia. They're tall, slender, firm-breasted, sleek, acne-free, and barely have any body hair.

Now, to all those folks out there who're obssessed with this Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve business... who the hell do the OTHER genders get to marry in your perfect world?
Hmmm if I remember my terms correctly that particular situation is an example of ambiguous genitalia … though I think they are piggy backing their hopes onto the gay scene hoping they clear the way for some more open thinking

:D

My question was more towards the folks trying to restrict marriage to a "Man and a Woman", which sorta screws over people for whom those terms don't apply readily.

I, personally, am all for marrying whoever the heck you want so long as they're consenting and compotent adults. I don't care if its a bloody sentient alien squid, if it hits those criteria.


And nah, the syndrome basically makes the interior shallow, rather than the full set. Alas, the book I own with details on that (A feminist layman's biology book, oddly enough), is at home, otherwise I'd hunt down a link for it. I just find it so bloody amusing that supermodels technically look like men with hormone problems, and that the average man drools over them....

:D

My question was more towards the folks trying to restrict marriage to a "Man and a Woman", which sorta screws over people for whom those terms don't apply readily.

I, personally, am all for marrying whoever the heck you want so long as they're consenting and compotent adults. I don't care if its a bloody sentient alien squid, if it hits those criteria.


And nah, the syndrome basically makes the interior shallow, rather than the full set. Alas, the book I own with details on that (A feminist layman's biology book, oddly enough), is at home, otherwise I'd hunt down a link for it. I just find it so bloody amusing that supermodels technically look like men with hormone problems, and that the average man drools over them....
Then you get into what is “adult” for an alien adult squid :-P u may have to wait hundreds of years to marry lol

well, if marriage is redefined to be between two people, then it won't matter which gender they are. male, female or other.

:D

I just find it so bloody amusing that supermodels technically look like men with hormone problems, and that the average man drools over them....


Perhaps I am not average. but I don't find supermodels in the least bit attractive!

well, if marriage is redefined to be between two people, then it won't matter which gender they are. male, female or other.
Yup like I said they are waiting for the gay crowd (a much larger and more vocal group) to push different marriage laws through …

Exactly what they should be doing :)

Male and female aren't the only human 'genders' out there.
You're right, but since you're using the term colloquially (gender is a grammatical property), I'm sure you mean sex. And you're wrong, a person's sex is decided by their chromosomes. Although there are a few XXY and X0 people out there, but they're not common. Although I guess a neutered person could be considered sexless by the loosest definitions. Utlimately, although you may have society recognise you differently, a human is male or female depending on their chromosomal make-up, or their reproductive capacities. Until we start getting gynandromorphs, which are what happened to a species of mosquito exposed to a certain amount of DDT over a few generations. Then you can say your hermaphroditic.

You're right, but since you're using the term colloquially (gender is a grammatical property), I'm sure you mean sex. And you're wrong, a person's sex is decided by their chromosomes. Although there are a few XXY and X0 people out there, but they're not common. Although I guess a neutered person could be considered sexless by the loosest definitions. Utlimately, although you may have society recognise you differently, a human is male or female depending on their chromosomal make-up, or their reproductive capacities. Until we start getting gynandromorphs, which are what happened to a species of mosquito exposed to a certain amount of DDT over a few generations. Then you can say your hermaphroditic.

The term "man" isn't the same as "male", nor is it functional.

The point is, who do people with abnormal sexual characertisitics get to marry in a "Man and Woman" system? Just because they're rare doesn't mean they can be ignored.

The term "man" isn't the same as "male", nor is it functional.

The point is, who do people with abnormal sexual characertisitics get to marry in a "Man and Woman" system? Just because they're rare doesn't mean they can be ignored.

Thats right!

In one of my law school classes, we were assigned to do research for a fictional case:

Harper, retired Minnesota widower worth $5M, falls in love with Laura (decades younger than him) and decides to marry her. Harper's son Roger congratulates him... until Harper tells him Laura was born Larry. Harper reluctantly gives his blessing to the marriage and serves as best man and legal witness. Then when Harper dies without a will, Roger sues to have Laura denied a share of the estate on the grounds that a man's marriage to a male-to-female transsexual is invalid and "she" was never his wife.

I concluded, based on real laws and cases, that the marriage will be found invalid and that Roger won't be automatically silenced for chutzpah, but that Laura might be able to get a widow's share for being a "putative spouse" who had a "good-faith belief" that the marriage was valid.

So far there's basically no law covering transsexuals' marriages directly; they're just not part of the worldview of the people arguing about the definition of marriage. The closest thing I see is that most court cases trying to define gender say that it can't be changed.

Someone forwarded me a message about "alienation of affection" lawsuits. For those people worried that the meaning of marriage is getting watered down, why not focus on enforcing marriage as a legal contract? If someone cheats on their spouse, punish them as a contract-breaker! Let people who love each other form marriage contracts, and "protect" marriage by making it a real legal bond.

Except with them alien squid. Them things are the Devil's work.

Sex refers to the biological condition. Gender is how society defines you, almost always based on your sex. The term 'tomboy' would demonstrate this concept: a biological female acting in such a way that better matches the male gender in society.

The concept is that there are many people struggling with this cultural assumption; just because people are born male/female should not dictate how they should live their lives. (e.g. men as soldiers/bosses/workers and women in the kitchen/etc)

This of course also complicates the issue about homosexuality and marriage rights. Can we get heterosexual but homogender marriages? Are homosexual relationships mostly heterogender?

You're right, but since you're using the term colloquially (gender is a grammatical property), I'm sure you mean sex. And you're wrong, a person's sex is decided by their chromosomes. Although there are a few XXY and X0 people out there, but they're not common. Although I guess a neutered person could be considered sexless by the loosest definitions. Utlimately, although you may have society recognise you differently, a human is male or female depending on their chromosomal make-up, or their reproductive capacities. Until we start getting gynandromorphs, which are what happened to a species of mosquito exposed to a certain amount of DDT over a few generations. Then you can say your hermaphroditic.
what about chimeric people who are the rpoduct of two embroys of different sexes?

there have been cases where they are born with both sets of sex organs... functional sex organs, might i add. they are born both male and female, chromosomally as well as physically.

not to mention that there are a number of cases where a person with male chromosomes will not develop properly, thus ending up with female exteror parts, usually raised as a girl. if they are raised as a girl and consider themselves female, yet you sit around and force them to mark themselves as male simply because of what their chromosomes say they are, that's silly. gender isn't just about an xx or xy pair.

The worst part of it is that, in some cases, people don't actually find out about their own physical composition.

Do you realize how horrid it would be if, at age 50, after 30 years of marriage, you finally go to a decent doctor, and you find out that your marriage was illegal?

And can we get any responses from the folks who want to make gay marriage illegal? It's an issue that people dodge too readily as is.

...Wow.. no marriage for man and woman persons have an opinion on this...? I find that hard to believe.

A small but still equally rights-invested group is being left out of these goofy sexuality debates.

Male and female aren't the only human 'genders' out there.

A little research and some common knowledge remind us that not everyone is born and raised as a perfectly formed member of one gender or the other. Most people are quite aware of hermaphrodites, for instance, but they're just the tip of the ice burg (try google, and you'll find websites such as http://homepages.utoledo.edu/mcaruso/columns/gender.html ).

An example I read about a few years ago was when a genetic male, with XY chromosomes, has a defective gene, and ends up unable to proccess testosterone properly. The result is basically a female supermodel with a non-functioning, but superficially female set of genitalia. They're tall, slender, firm-breasted, sleek, acne-free, and barely have any body hair.

Now, to all those folks out there who're obssessed with this Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve business... who the hell do the OTHER genders get to marry in your perfect world?

Themselves. They can not reproduce, fortunately. Marriage laws were enacted to support reproduction within families, not weird "fun" that spreads weird diseases.

I beg your pardon. Weird diseases? Weird "fun"?

Genetically, I'm female. But my character and my body have plenty of masculine traits which occasionally lead to me being mistaken for a male. And regarding gender, I am androgynous. And aye, I lack preferences to gender and sex. Nor can I confess to being anything like chaste in body.

Do you assume I'm incapable of using sound judgment in choosing partners? I've never had so much as an itch. Yes, sex is fun for me. I fail to see how it's weird. Humans aren't the only creatures recognized for developing homosexuality. For god's sake, there are animals which can change sex halfway through their lives.

I loathe hearing that human variants are weird. It's locked into our genes and our environment. And it offers stunning discoveries, not only in wisdom, but of how life functions.

As for marriage itself, it's true that it is important to our reproductive behavior. That does not mean it's bad for couples who are incapable of reproduction to be mated for life. What would you tell a barren woman? That her chosen partnership cannot be acknowledged by the law? If she is a spectacular example of virtues, she can't adopt? Most states require that a person desiring to adopt be legally married prior to application, since reviewers feel it is a sign that one is more able to support a child. I'm of the opinion that a child is better off with a person of great heart who is of so called alternative gender/sex or sexuality than they would be with a wretch who is of standard sexual expectations. Better that the child be cherished than grow up to be average.

A female hermaphrodite is born with the apparent vagina but the clitoris is enlarged. A male hermaphrodite is born with a extremely small penis with testicles... much like the Japanese.

A female hermaphrodite is born with the apparent vagina but the clitoris is enlarged. A male hermaphrodite is born with a extremely small penis with testicles... much like the Japanese.
Not necessarily … if I remember my biology there are roughly three “hermaphroditic” afflictions

True hermaphroditic condition – where they truly have a fully functional set of both sex organs

Ambiguous genitalia - where it is hard to tell at birth which it will be (the situation quoted can be one of these) where the organs are non functional or non fully developed or sometimes in the rare case not present (vagina has not opened up to the surface but has ovaries)


Off had I cant remember the third … I will take a look for it …
I seemed to remember it being something like biased hermaphroditic syndrome where they have both but one is VERY prominent over the other so they have a full working male set but happen to have ovaries tucked in there (not necessarily vaginal opening) that sort of thing

Themselves. They can not reproduce, fortunately. Marriage laws were enacted to support reproduction within families, not weird "fun" that spreads weird diseases.

So you argue that they should be allowed to marry each other? If that's so, why not homosexual persons? Also, why should it be limited to that? What if a straight person falls in love with one of those XY Supermodels?

If reproduction is the point, do you argue that the infertile shouldn't be allowed to marry? People who use birth control?

Define weird "fun". If its what I think it is, aside from being nuns, what else -can- they do?

And what weird diseases are you talking about? I've never heard a disease that can only be passed on by people with abnormal sexual characteristics. There's nothing in the species I've ever even heard postulated that effects straight, normally-sexually persons any more or less than the rest of humanity.

If XX is a girl and XY is a guy, what would YY look like?

If XX is a girl and XY is a guy, what would YY look like?
impossible :-P not unless it were two girls dna joining

There is no place to get the second y from

impossible :-P not unless it were two girls dna joining

There is no place to get the second y from
we could make a test tube baby. i'm pertty sure were advanced enough to do such a thing. only thing left to worry about would be if it is Legal or not, and of course the morale objections.

impossible :-P not unless it were two girls dna joining

There is no place to get the second y from

Actually...I've heard of YYs before - from a retired MD. They can exist, they are exceptionally rare - but they usually don't live very long. In case you're wondering, they apparently look female, but are infertile, and usually deformed to boot. Most of them spontaneously abort well before coming to term.

impossible :-P not unless it were two girls dna joining

There is no place to get the second y from

Two boys, you mean.

X is the primary form of humanity. I'm not sure if its physically possible for a human to come out of even a forced YY bond.

There are, however, people with three chromosomes...

Themselves. They can not reproduce, fortunately. Marriage laws were enacted to support reproduction within families, not weird "fun" that spreads weird diseases.

It isn't the weird fun that spreads weird diseases, it's the weird, willfull ignorance and climate of nondisclosure that spreads weird diseases. Weird fun is...FUN!

Two boys, you mean.

X is the primary form of humanity. I'm not sure if its physically possible for a human to come out of even a forced YY bond.

There are, however, people with three chromosomes...
Thank you my mind glitched … said female when meant male

Thank you

According to Alien3 YY people are possible, and apparently somewhat violent. The prison planet is a "double-Y chromosome" facility. :)

BTW, according to that same retired MD, the number of children born with extra digits is waaay higher than is generally reported - from his personal experience delivering babies in Canada and Europe, and in comparing notes with his peers, he pegged the numbers at around one out of five births.

He and his fellow doctors were long in the practice of doing a quick count of all digits before handng off the newborn, and if need be, removing them surrepticiously. In most cases, there was no bone attaching the extra digit, just a free-floating bone (or no bone at all) inside an extra extrusion of flesh.

As the baby is covered in blood at birth anyway, most of these deformed newborns are 'righted' without the need to inform the anxious parents.

SHOOT THE FREAKS!!!! (just joking, just joking...)

BTW, according to that same retired MD, the number of children born with extra digits is waaay higher than is generally reported - from his personal experience delivering babies in Canada and Europe, and in comparing notes with his peers, he pegged the numbers at around one out of five births.

He and his fellow doctors were long in the practice of doing a quick count of all digits before handng off the newborn, and if need be, removing them surrepticiously. In most cases, there was no bone attaching the extra digit, just a free-floating bone (or no bone at all) inside an extra extrusion of flesh.

As the baby is covered in blood at birth anyway, most of these deformed newborns are 'righted' without the need to inform the anxious parents.

Yep. People would be amazed if they realized how common dramatic mutations are.

My buddy Dexter confessed to me his encounter with a wonderful girl he had known for some years. He was always quite fond of her, but she kept him "at arms length" whenever things got a little warm. He said that changed one night when they were both swimming in the dark, and she let his hands roam. He found something real familiar there. He handled it pretty well I guess, says they actually started dating for a year or so. One of those things she later had a doctor "fix" when she had the money.

Me? I dunno. I don't think I'd have the guts to ever admit something like that to most of my friends, but Dex was always pretty cool about stuff. Personally, if he's not yanking my chain, I commend him for being open minded. And her doctors, for not mutilating her at birth.

Yup like I said they are waiting for the gay crowd (a much larger and more vocal group) to push different marriage laws through …

Exactly what they should be doing :)

Actually, I think that they should be more vocal themselves. Most of the type of people that oppose equal protection in marriage licenses don't even know that people of ambiguous gender actually exist and it is a good point that *some* of them will listen to - and it is definitely a good point for judicial precendence.

Themselves. They can not reproduce, fortunately. Marriage laws were enacted to support reproduction within families, not weird "fun" that spreads weird diseases.

Says a person that has never actually researched marriage laws.

*Very* few of the *hundreds* of protections afforded by marraige have *anything* to do with children. I am afraid you are horirbly wrong here.

we could make a test tube baby. i'm pertty sure were advanced enough to do such a thing. only thing left to worry about would be if it is Legal or not, and of course the morale objections.

They have tried, it has not worked.

(with other mammalian sperm, not with human yet as far as I know)

Mnkay, dude, this Dexter guy rocks. Proud to be in the same species as him. Anyone who's that much of an adult about a situation is to be respected.

And yeah, marriage has so little to do with children its silly to use it as a defense.

Otherwise they'd have pro-harem marriages, since harems are good set-ups for raising children, "I have ten mommies!"

OTHER genders?

Wow, this is getting ridiculous - the government just shouldn't stick it's pompous head into the issue of marriage.

Hows bouts we get a list of other gender's going for people who really dont know much on this subject.

Social gender:

Female, but masculine. Male, but feminine.


Hermaphroditic:

Dozens of variations. Gender and sex can be decided by the person or by their parents, who raise the child as such.


Other:

One sex, dual gender. Tend to be highly androgynous. Could never tell by looking at them whether they're biologically male or female. Then three and/or inconstant chromosomes.


And possible many we haven't discovered.

i want an xxy person. Being a gay guy with a boob fettish, if they developed with a dick and tits, id be in heaven. And as for marrage, what ever happened to denmarks idea, make "marrage in the name of the law" illegal, used only as a religious title, all other couples are civil unions, and that means ALL MARRAGES, not just gay, lesbian or trans-gender

OTHER genders?

Wow, this is getting ridiculous - the government just shouldn't stick it's pompous head into the issue of marriage.

Exactly my point in this thread.

Sure, its fine and dandy for straight men and women, and for those non-straight men and women, at worst, they can marry straight best friends, and spend their nights with the ones they love, but what the heck do the rest of the humans do?

It's like having healthcare for people no matter how much pigment they have in their skin.. but if they have NONE (Albinos), they're screwed.

"I'm sorry sir, we conviently forgot you existed, because you aren't mentioned in the bible, you can go die now."

Themselves. They can not reproduce, fortunately. Marriage laws were enacted to support reproduction within families, not weird "fun" that spreads weird diseases. So in that case do you believe that men and women with normal chromosomes and genitalia who are infertile should be banned from getting married? Furthermore, some people with hermaphroditic conditions can reproduce. I've read that it's theoretically possible for people with the condition mentioned in the first post to father a child, as they have testes inside their bodies in place of ovaries. Does that mean that you'd support one of these people, many of whom live their lives as 'regular' women, marrying another woman with two X chromosomes?

If XX is a girl and XY is a guy, what would YY look like?

http://www.1manband.it/images/funny/michael_jackson.jpg

Actually, I think that they should be more vocal themselves. Most of the type of people that oppose equal protection in marriage licenses don't even know that people of ambiguous gender actually exist and it is a good point that *some* of them will listen to - and it is definitely a good point for judicial precendence.
Agreed ... just meaning right now gay marrige is being pushed very hard by both the press ... money ... organizations and so on so forth really ambigious gender people cant hope to keep up that sort of ferver.
If homosexuals get it changed to *concenting adult* rather then man and woman hopefully that will make things a LOT easier for them

Unfortunately, like many things in our "Free" country, much of this is kept down by fear.

While transvesdites are popular enough, people who are naturally born with abnormal sexual characteristics are, by and large, not interesting in alerting people to their existance, especially employers, family, and sometimes even friends and lovers.

Sadly, by and large, a huge part of this country, even people who may be otherwise fairly tolerant, would have a hard time accepting the -existance- of these people, much less treating them as equals and not a lower form of life (Zealots at least try to convert homosexual persons to being hetero, but what can they even try to do with someone who's SEX is in question instead of their sexuality?)

I've also yet to hear any real arguments (aside from those agreeing with my own stance) aside from someone not knowing the way the law works.

A small but still equally rights-invested group is being left out of these goofy sexuality debates.

Male and female aren't the only human 'genders' out there.

A little research and some common knowledge remind us that not everyone is born and raised as a perfectly formed member of one gender or the other. Most people are quite aware of hermaphrodites, for instance, but they're just the tip of the ice burg (try google, and you'll find websites such as http://homepages.utoledo.edu/mcaruso/columns/gender.html ).

An example I read about a few years ago was when a genetic male, with XY chromosomes, has a defective gene, and ends up unable to proccess testosterone properly. The result is basically a female supermodel with a non-functioning, but superficially female set of genitalia. They're tall, slender, firm-breasted, sleek, acne-free, and barely have any body hair.

Now, to all those folks out there who're obssessed with this Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve business... who the hell do the OTHER genders get to marry in your perfect world?

geez, can't you understand? REAL marriage is about breeding! people who are inter-gender should be celebate for life (because sex outside of marriage is wrong), since they are almost always infertile and therefore are useless. a real, honorable, good marriage is about the sex the couple has, not about love, commitment, honor, partnership, or a lifetime bond! if we allow marriage to be about those things, rather than about a particular configuration of genital interaction, then marriage will be debased!

Um… if you really want efficient breeding, create an atrophied queen breeder woman, who lays newborns every ten seconds and is attached to a ten metre long ovipositor (sorry, I was reading about termites a couple of nights ago and I obsess with the Alien series!). I do not look for child bearing ability in a wife.

Actually, that breeder thing is a good idea.

My opposition to gay marriages is because I am a religious fanatical zealot (I think). I am not sure about hermaphrodites.