NationStates Jolt Archive

For those of you who do not know what this is, basically it entails becoming friends with someone (usually while they are dating someone else) in the hopes that they will get to know you and all your good qualities. Then one day, so the theory goes, they will realize that you are the right person for them and fall in love with you &ct.

Or, if they are dating when you begin said maneuver, when they break up with their current squeeze, they will turn to you for comfort and at that moment realize that you were the right one all along and fall in love with you then &ct.

Whatever the setup actually is, the whole idea is to become really good friends, and this will end up in people riding off into the sunset together, or something.

Now, I’ve seen people attempt this, but it invariably ends in some kind of angst ridden disaster. At best, the two in question end up maintaining a somewhat uncomfortable friendship that eventually goes no-where.

I realize however my sample size is limited and I may be wrong in my universal condemnation of this method, so in the interest of science I am putting up a poll to see how effective this whole thing is.

A whole thread for this.

Well, I can't recall ever making friends with a girl I wouldn't have/ didn't want to have sex with.

A whole thread for this.

Well, I can't recall ever making friends with a girl I wouldn't have/ didn't want to have sex with.

I'm curious. I want to know if anyone has ever managed to convert a long term friendship into a something else. I've never heard of such a thing really happening outside of TV.

It failed twice for me. I turned into an angst ridden disaster. Then I moved on.

Well, I'm trying it. And these responses are not encouraging :( .

Well, I'm trying it. And these responses are not encouraging :( .

How did you vote?

The friend trick- only works if you aim to really be a friend.
My first relationship- I propositioned my best friend, not knowing or caring if they were in a relationship or no. I didn't really expect a relationship, but there was one.
Did it last? No. Ended a little rough because it was my first relationship & I was learning. But guess what? We're still great friends. The relationship we had is great memories.
So, it depends on your motivation. If you go into it with ulterior motives, it will kick you in the ass.
I will never enter into a relationship without first establishing a friendship. I've had great relationships, even if they did end- I have no regrets and lots of great memories.

It worked for me. Sort of. It was not intended to work that way. We were already freinds when she became interested in serious dating, but she did not like me, and was head over heals for her. I maintaned the freindship in large part because i liked her. To make a long story short, eventually, our freindship grew into more, and resulted in us eventually getting together, after she had some problems with the other guy. This whole situatation, of course went down in a flaming wreak and they ended up back together, and i lost a close freind because i let it grow into more for a time. Only recently have things been mended over. What ever you do be careful, and remember (that at least in my opionion) freindship is more important than a relationship, and is the most important part of a relationship. Just make sure you are really freinds and not freinds because of (or in attempt to gain) a relationship. THis is all said from experiance, my own, mostly, and some of close freinds.

In a short answer to the question at hand though, yes it can work.

In eratta to the short answer, but be careful.

P.S. to the eratta, be careful with any relationship.

How did you vote?
I voted "I don't know", though I was mainly referring to the posts. The main problem is that may school is pretty small, and an "angst ridden disaster" won't do too well in that environment... Though everyone who posted I've already heard at least a little from, so perhaps I'll take heart in that.

Anywho, does anyone have any theories as to why this strategy would or would not work?

The friend trick- only works if you aim to really be a friend.
My first relationship- I propositioned my best friend, not knowing or caring if they were in a relationship or no. I didn't really expect a relationship, but there was one.
Did it last? No. Ended a little rough because it was my first relationship & I was learning. But guess what? We're still great friends. The relationship we had is great memories.
So, it depends on your motivation. If you go into it with ulterior motives, it will kick you in the ass.
I will never enter into a relationship without first establishing a friendship. I've had great relationships, even if they did end- I have no regrets and lots of great memories.

Hmm good point, but I don't really count that, because as you said it was unexpected.

I'm talking about people who try and establish a long term friendship with the intention of "converting" it later.

I am already aware of the danger of drinking heavily with old friends (which can be uncomfortable the next day).

my current girlfriend (of 4 1/2 yrs) and i started out as friends, then progressed to really good friends, then on to best friends, and here we are. our realtionship is almost completely unconventional, and doesn't really fit into any of societies little pigeonholes when it comes to categorising a relationship. oh, and by the way, “friend maneuvers" do not work. if you try to become friends with someone with the goal of hooking up, it ain't gonna work. love is something almost completely random and psychotic, i would know. it can happen, but only as long as it wasn't planned that way.

It worked for me. Sort of. It was not intended to work that way. We were already freinds when she became interested in serious dating, but she did not like me, and was head over heals for her. I maintaned the freindship in large part because i liked her. To make a long story short, eventually, our freindship grew into more, and resulted in us eventually getting together, after she had some problems with the other guy. This whole situatation, of course went down in a flaming wreak and they ended up back together, and i lost a close freind because i let it grow into more for a time. Only recently have things been mended over. What ever you do be careful, and remember (that at least in my opionion) freindship is more important than a relationship, and is the most important part of a relationship. Just make sure you are really freinds and not freinds because of (or in attempt to gain) a relationship. THis is all said from experiance, my own, mostly, and some of close freinds.

In a short answer to the question at hand though, yes it can work.

In eratta to the short answer, but be careful.

P.S. to the eratta, be careful with any relationship.


Ah but did you try and become her friend with a view to dating her, or were you just friends already. If it was the later I don't count it as trying the maneuver, just happenstance.

I'm curious. I want to know if anyone has ever managed to convert a long term friendship into a something else. I've never heard of such a thing really happening outside of TV.

I've had two long term relationships.

First: Knew her for 2 years prior, we went out for 1.5 years.
Second: Knew her for 4 months prior, went out for almost 3 years.

Girl I'm seeing now...I've known for about a year, but not extremely well.

Several other instances of drunk "hook-ups" with long-term friends. Sometimes it's needed to break the tension.

It worked for me. Sort of. It was not intended to work that way. We were already freinds when she became interested in serious dating, but she did not like me, and was head over heals for her. I maintaned the freindship in large part because i liked her. To make a long story short, eventually, our freindship grew into more, and resulted in us eventually getting together, after she had some problems with the other guy. This whole situatation, of course went down in a flaming wreak and they ended up back together, and i lost a close freind because i let it grow into more for a time. Only recently have things been mended over.
In one of my situations, the same thing happened. She broke up with this guy, grew interested in me because I was there to talk to, we hit it off for a while, she got back with him, and then she stopped talking to me.

real relationsips do not work with maneuvers. that's the whole point. if good relationships were this easy no one would ever be single.

Ah but did you try and become her friend with a view to dating her, or were you just friends already. If it was the later I don't count it as trying the maneuver, just happenstance.

That's the trick. Being friends without the obvious intent of trying to date her.

I've had two long term relationships.

First: Knew her for 2 years prior, we went out for 1.5 years.
Second: Knew her for 4 months prior, went out for almost 3 years.

Girl I'm seeing now...I've known for about a year, but not extremely well.

Several other instances of drunk "hook-ups" with long-term friends. Sometimes it's needed to break the tension.

But were you close friends first?

Also did you go into the friendships with the hope of something more?

It works. Thats how i've gotten all of my Girlfriends so far. Sure it hasn't been to many, but they were all pretty long term.

But were you close friends first?

Also did you go into the friendships with the hope of something more?

Yeah, with the first two, pretty close. Well, I don't know if I was looking for a relationship or something else.

Like I said, I've never made friends with a girl from whom I wasn't after something.

Including the word "maneuver" means you really wouldn't be a "friend."

Including the word "maneuver" means you really wouldn't be a "friend."
He put quotes around it:)

He put quotes around it:)
And that somehow makes it better? Hmmm.

And that somehow makes it better? Hmmm.
No, but it considers the fact that it is not a true friendship.

And that somehow makes it better? Hmmm.

Well, as far as I can see, if you become "friends" with someone with the sole intention of seducing them it is a "skosh" dishonest in the first place.

I wouldn't approach getting a date this way. But that's just me.

Well, DDave....how many female friends have you had that you wouldn't sleep with?

I really can't think of any myself.

Well, as far as I can see, if you become "friends" with someone with the sole intention of seducing them it is a "skosh" dishonest in the first place.

I wouldn't approach getting a date this way. But that's just me.
No, it's not "just" you, thank God! :)

Well, as far as I can see, if you become "friends" with someone with the sole intention of seducing them it is a "skosh" dishonest in the first place.
Does that count if you want to be friends with someone, but also be interested in eventually forming a "romantic" (for lack of a better word) relationship?

Well, DDave....how many female friends have you had that you wouldn't sleep with?

I really can't think of any myself.

I have many female friends I wouldn't sleep with.

Does that count if you want to be friends with someone, but also be interested in eventually forming a "romantic" (for lack of a better word) relationship?
No. IMHO, the very best and most lasting relationships begin by becoming good friends. Like I said elsewhere ... this all presumes a relatively mature woman ( mentally and emotionally, not necessarily age ).

Does that count if you want to be friends with someone, but also be interested in eventually forming a "romantic" (for lack of a better word) relationship?

How can you seperate the two?

My problem with the whole deal it that: On the one hand you want to be a confidant and someone that they will most probably turn to for advice or to talk to about relationships &tc.; on the other, you have an agenda of making the relationship something more, so there will always be a conflict of interest when they seek your counsel.

There is also the whole aspect that the other party is probably aware of how you feel anyway.

I don't have a problem with the idea of knowing someone casually and after a while that may turn into a romantic relationship, for whatever reason.

I just don't see setting out to become a really close friend with someone with the intention of eventually converting it into something more as a method that can be that sucessful. (Or honest for that matter).

But other people here seem to have worked out how to do it, so probably you want to go to them for tips.

No. IMHO, the very best and most lasting relationships begin by becoming good friends. Like I said elsewhere ... this all presumes a relatively mature woman ( mentally and emotionally, not necessarily age ).

But you are saying that you become friends and find the romance later.

You don't become their friend with the intention of dating them. Is that right?

But you are saying that you become friends and find the romance later.

You don't become their friend with the intention of dating them. Is that right?
It depends upon your true motivation. If you truly want to be a friend, as well as a lover, then the answer is yes. But if your true motivation is just to get them in bed, that will always eventually come out and ruin both the relationship and the romance.

If you know how to do the friend thing correctly, you can have the best of both worlds. First a friend, then someone you have sex with, then a friend again.

It depends upon your true motivation. If you truly want to be a friend, as well as a lover, then the answer is yes. But if your true motivation is just to get them in bed, that will always eventually come out and ruin both the relationship and the romance.
Well that makes me feel better. I was worried for a while that my motivations might be corrupt, and not only be morally wrong but end poorly. But going out with someone surely does not require sex? Although I wouldn't be against it, copulation is not my goal, but a serious and close relationship between us.

If you know how to do the friend thing correctly, you can have the best of both worlds. First a friend, then someone you have sex with, then a friend again.
Yes, except that neither aspect is an "on again, off again" situation. For many years, my very best friend was my wife and we had a great relationship in and out of bed. We didn't separate the sex from the friendship, we were both ... always. :)

Well that makes me feel better. I was worried for a while that my motivations might be corrupt, and not only be morally wrong but end poorly. But going out with someone surely does not require sex? Although I wouldn't be against it, copulation is not my goal, but a serious and close relationship between us.
Sex is far more than "copulation" where humans are concerned. No, you do not have to have sex, but for any relationship between a man and a woman to become truly transcendent, sex is the ultimate "bonding" experience. One good rule of thumb on this is that "pleasure delayed is pleasure enhanced." The suspense becomes almost unbearable at times! :D

Sex is far more than "copulation" where humans are concerned. No, you do not have to have sex, but for any relationship between a man and a woman to become truly transcendent, sex is the ultimate "bonding" experience. One good rule of thumb on this is that "pleasure delayed is pleasure enhanced." The suspense becomes almost unbearable at times! :D
...in high school?

...in high school?
Self-control on the man's part, at the very least, is mandatory for great sex. When you're very young ( as you apparently are ), this can be difficult in the extreme. Some sort of temporary relief may be in order at first. How well I remember! LOL!

It depends upon your true motivation. If you truly want to be a friend, as well as a lover, then the answer is yes. But if your true motivation is just to get them in bed, that will always eventually come out and ruin both the relationship and the romance.

I have to agree. My current relationship started with us just being friends. Romance developed later. Even now getting laid matters far far less to me than just spending time with her. My personal opinion is that any relationship that is based around sex won't last very long and will probably end with someone getting hurt. The best relationships are based on the same things that friendships are based on, trust, some mutal interests, personality etc.

As for the friend maneuver, it could theoretically work, but you need to be a genuine friend not someone who is just interested in scooping up bereaved maiden when she and current boyfriend have broken up. In general, I suggest not trying it since there is definitely a higher than normal chance of people's feelings getting hurt.

I still felt guilty even though I went into the friendship wanting both. It was probably a good thing the relationship died before it became to serious. That way I was able to clear my conscious.

I have to agree. My current relationship started with us just being friends. Romance developed later. Even now getting laid matters far far less to me than just spending time with her. My personal opinion is that any relationship that is based around sex won't last very long and will probably end with someone getting hurt. The best relationships are based on the same things that friendships are based on, trust, some mutal interests, personality etc.
You're very wise to be so young! Sounds to me as if you have the makings of a truly great relationship. Talk lots, spend time together no matter how busy you both are, and explore mutual interests and passions. Good luck! :)

EDIT: and always make an effort to support each other's goals. Very important! :)

I still felt guilty even though I went into the friendship wanting both. It was probably a good thing the relationship died before it became too serious. That way I was able to clear my conscious.
Any idea why you felt guilty?

All these ideas sound like too much work.

I advise everyone to move to NYC, where everyone is shallow enough to not have to bother with all this. It's great.

All these ideas sound like too much work.

I advise everyone to move to NYC, where everyone is shallow enough to not have to bother with all this. It's great.
LOL! Somehow, I don't remember most New Yorkers as being "shallow." Frenetic, yes, but not shallow. :)

LOL! Somehow, I don't remember most New Yorkers as being "shallow." Frenetic, yes, but not shallow. :)

No, it's pretty shallow here. At least in respect of dating.

No, it's pretty shallow here. At least in respect of dating.
Change the crowd you hang with. I bet you can find lots of New Yorkers who aren't "shallow" at anything! :)

All these ideas sound like too much work.

I advise everyone to move to NYC, where everyone is shallow enough to not have to bother with all this. It's great.

Any real relationship, even simple friendship, requires work. But then in my (limited) experience so does anything else worth having in this world.

As for the "move to NYC" idea, some people can do the whole shallow relationship thing and others can't. Personally I couldn't, but for those who can, the more power to you.

Change the crowd you hang with. I bet you can find lots of New Yorkers who aren't "shallow" at anything! :)


That is my crowd. And I am sticking with it.

I didn't say I didn't like it.

1) Trying a maneuver is -ass-. Don't do it.

2) Be a -real- friend. If you're going to 'make friends', be a good friend, no matter what. Getting in a relationship with someone you couldn't be just friends with for the rest of your life is more ass.

3) Be direct. If you're attracted to someone, and you want to get close, TELL them so. Say something like, "Hey... I've been noticing you and I'd like for us to be friends... maybe see if it goes anywhere, but, first and foremost, I'd like to hang out with you sometime." And mean it. If you don't honestly want to be their friend, again, you are ass.

4) Anacarthia is correct. Sex is secondary, if not tertiary. The friendship is what's truly important. Friends may become friends with benefits or become a relationship or, of course, a relationship with benefits (Dating doesn't always mean sex, after all).

5) It works. My ex-girlfriend and were friends for years, we met in person (Internet romances, whee), did a little lovin' in either sense of the word, and broke up awhile after she left for home. We're still great friends (with the occassional suggestion of latent feelings), who can be absolutely open to each other (always amusing when someone you've slept with starts talking about what they do when the boyfriend is away or being a twit... ahem). Another friend of mine, while we have no romantic inclination, I'm technically engaged with, because the friendship is just that deep (of course, the date isn't until 15 years from now...). My current female companion I have another pleasant relationship with: We make out and date a bit, but its a nice free relationship. She knows if she wants to make it deeper, she can, but that she won't get tossed from my life if her heart leads her elsewhere. Being a true, good friend is a powerful thing. That people like to get naked with good true friends is just a side benefit to be enjoyed, but not to be considered a goal.

1) Trying a maneuver is -ass-. Don't do it.

2) Be a -real- friend. If you're going to 'make friends', be a good friend, no matter what. Getting in a relationship with someone you couldn't be just friends with for the rest of your life is more ass.

3) Be direct. If you're attracted to someone, and you want to get close, TELL them so. Say something like, "Hey... I've been noticing you and I'd like for us to be friends... maybe see if it goes anywhere, but, first and foremost, I'd like to hang out with you sometime." And mean it. If you don't honestly want to be their friend, again, you are ass.

4) Anacarthia is correct. Sex is secondary, if not tertiary. The friendship is what's truly important. Friends may become friends with benefits or become a relationship or, of course, a relationship with benefits (Dating doesn't always mean sex, after all).

5) It works. My ex-girlfriend and were friends for years, we met in person (Internet romances, whee), did a little lovin' in either sense of the word, and broke up awhile after she left for home. We're still great friends (with the occassional suggestion of latent feelings), who can be absolutely open to each other (always amusing when someone you've slept with starts talking about what they do when the boyfriend is away or being a twit... ahem). Another friend of mine, while we have no romantic inclination, I'm technically engaged with, because the friendship is just that deep (of course, the date isn't until 15 years from now...). My current female companion I have another pleasant relationship with: We make out and date a bit, but its a nice free relationship. She knows if she wants to make it deeper, she can, but that she won't get tossed from my life if her heart leads her elsewhere. Being a true, good friend is a powerful thing. That people like to get naked with good true friends is just a side benefit to be enjoyed, but not to be considered a goal.
Very wise of you, and very lucid. However, and this is just a side note, sex is intimately tied to emotions in many people. Others have problems telling the difference between sex and love. Just a cautionary note. :)

That is my crowd. And I am sticking with it.

I didn't say I didn't like it.
Neither did I. I was just pointing out that there are options. :)

Well, technicly it worked for me to get my fiance.
Unfortunatly, it wasn't planned, or a manuver.
We were great freinds for a while, and then we started dating, and now we're where we are today.
Of course as I said, it was not the origonal intention of the freindship. In several instances I commented negativly on her looks.. and yet, months later, I'm with her.Yes, you read that right.

The 'Best friend' approach will never work, cause women and men are fundamentally different in this approach.
Women want to have a close male friend that will take them for a coffee, etc but won't sleep with them. Men on the other hand mostly want to have a close female friend they can sleep with. And women don't seem to understand this.

It'd be the same as going to a job interview and being told:
You're perfect for the job but we're not going to hire you. You have all the necessary experience and qualifications and would be perfect for this position, but we're going to hire someone else who's totally unsuitable. He probably has some major personality and/or character flaw(s), but we'll ignore that for the first few months. And we'll get pretty shitty at you if you make mention about his flaws.
So while we don't need you, we would still like you to come down to the office and hang around and help out sometimes (make the coffee, that sort of thing) while the employee we've chosen totally fucks everything up. In about 6 months, we'll finally wise up and fire him. We'll phone you up to complain bitterly (at length) about the ex-employee and tell you how much better you would have been.
We'll then need to readvertise for the same position and you're certainly welcome to reapply, but once again we'll overlook you for someone less suitable. To be honest we'll never choose you, but we appreciate keeping you around so we can compare the string of appalling employees we'll go through to your high standard. It makes us feel better.

It'd be the same as going to a job interview and being told:
You're perfect for the job but we're not going to hire you. You have all the necessary experience and qualifications and would be perfect for this position, but we're going to hire someone else who's totally unsuitable. He probably has some major personality and/or character flaw(s), but we'll ignore that for the first few months. And we'll get pretty shitty at you if you make mention about his flaws.
So while we don't need you, we would still like you to come down to the office and hang around and help out sometimes (make the coffee, that sort of thing) while the employee we've chosen totally fucks everything up. In about 6 months, we'll finally wise up and fire him. We'll phone you up to complain bitterly (at length) about the ex-employee and tell you how much better you would have been.
We'll then need to readvertise for the same position and you're certainly welcome to reapply, but once again we'll overlook you for someone less suitable. To be honest we'll never choose you, but we appreciate keeping you around so we can compare the string of appalling employees we'll go through to your high standard. It makes us feel better.

Superb work sir. I salute you.

The 'Best friend' approach will never work, cause women and men are fundamentally different in this approach.
Women want to have a close male friend that will take them for a coffee, etc but won't sleep with them. Men on the other hand mostly want to have a close female friend they can sleep with. And women don't seem to understand this.

It'd be the same as going to a job interview and being told:
You're perfect for the job but we're not going to hire you. You have all the necessary experience and qualifications and would be perfect for this position, but we're going to hire someone else who's totally unsuitable. He probably has some major personality and/or character flaw(s), but we'll ignore that for the first few months. And we'll get pretty shitty at you if you make mention about his flaws.
So while we don't need you, we would still like you to come down to the office and hang around and help out sometimes (make the coffee, that sort of thing) while the employee we've chosen totally fucks everything up. In about 6 months, we'll finally wise up and fire him. We'll phone you up to complain bitterly (at length) about the ex-employee and tell you how much better you would have been.
We'll then need to readvertise for the same position and you're certainly welcome to reapply, but once again we'll overlook you for someone less suitable. To be honest we'll never choose you, but we appreciate keeping you around so we can compare the string of appalling employees we'll go through to your high standard. It makes us feel better.

Now that is a genius example :D

EDIT: I totally agree with this too. I have tried to be friends and then move on so many times i should have learned...but all my gf's i have met on an off chance (like a friends birthday party or at a club one night). i am still good friends with all of them too, so i guess i am lucky. i have a few friends who although are very very nice, i wouldn't dare try to sleep with them, as they are too precious to lose if things got messed up so... in other words, IMHO becoming friends to try and get some is ALMOST never going to work!

The 'Best friend' approach will never work, cause women and men are fundamentally different in this approach.
Women want to have a close male friend that will take them for a coffee, etc but won't sleep with them. Men on the other hand mostly want to have a close female friend they can sleep with. And women don't seem to understand this.

It'd be the same as going to a job interview and being told:
You're perfect for the job but we're not going to hire you. You have all the necessary experience and qualifications and would be perfect for this position, but we're going to hire someone else who's totally unsuitable. He probably has some major personality and/or character flaw(s), but we'll ignore that for the first few months. And we'll get pretty shitty at you if you make mention about his flaws.
So while we don't need you, we would still like you to come down to the office and hang around and help out sometimes (make the coffee, that sort of thing) while the employee we've chosen totally fucks everything up. In about 6 months, we'll finally wise up and fire him. We'll phone you up to complain bitterly (at length) about the ex-employee and tell you how much better you would have been.
We'll then need to readvertise for the same position and you're certainly welcome to reapply, but once again we'll overlook you for someone less suitable. To be honest we'll never choose you, but we appreciate keeping you around so we can compare the string of appalling employees we'll go through to your high standard. It makes us feel better.

A) Yes, it works, although not as often as a lot of people would like, and it takes a long, long time. It's not the best method to try if you don't geniunely like the person for who they are.

B) Hamster, that is one of the best and funniest analogies I've read in a long, long time - And yet so true.

The 'Best friend' approach will never work, cause women and men are fundamentally different in this approach.
Women want to have a close male friend that will take them for a coffee, etc but won't sleep with them. Men on the other hand mostly want to have a close female friend they can sleep with. And women don't seem to understand this.

It'd be the same as going to a job interview and being told:
You're perfect for the job but we're not going to hire you. You have all the necessary experience and qualifications and would be perfect for this position, but we're going to hire someone else who's totally unsuitable. He probably has some major personality and/or character flaw(s), but we'll ignore that for the first few months. And we'll get pretty shitty at you if you make mention about his flaws.
So while we don't need you, we would still like you to come down to the office and hang around and help out sometimes (make the coffee, that sort of thing) while the employee we've chosen totally fucks everything up. In about 6 months, we'll finally wise up and fire him. We'll phone you up to complain bitterly (at length) about the ex-employee and tell you how much better you would have been.
We'll then need to readvertise for the same position and you're certainly welcome to reapply, but once again we'll overlook you for someone less suitable. To be honest we'll never choose you, but we appreciate keeping you around so we can compare the string of appalling employees we'll go through to your high standard. It makes us feel better.
One thing is certain ... I would never reapply! :)

A) Yes, it works, although not as often as a lot of people would like, and it takes a long, long time. It's not the best method to try if you don't geniunely like the person for who they are.

Now I could be wrong here and if I am please tell me. If you don't genuinely like the person for who they are, no relationship will come of any method. At that point you're pretty much interested in the person for sex or so I'd assume, and there's a term for that. It's called randomly hooking up and in general it's only for one night.

Very wise of you, and very lucid. However, and this is just a side note, sex is intimately tied to emotions in many people. Others have problems telling the difference between sex and love. Just a cautionary note. :)

Which makes it very useful that my interest in sex is merely as a pleasant benefit to certain relationship forms.

My ex never said she loved me until after she couldn't get any sex from me, my friend/fiance has never expressed any interest in me sexually, and the girl I'm currently with is still trying to decide if she hates me or loves me for refusing to have sex with her for the first year of our relationship (I usually hear both in the same night).

There's a hundred reasons why being unswayed by one's loins no matter the stimulus is an extremely useful ability. It's what helped me turn attempts at flings in to attempts at real, meaningful relationships with a promise of friendship if it fails.

Of course, it -is- important to do some naughty things with someone, even if you're not having sex, to make sure they know you do in fact find them desirable. It also teaches you useful tricks. When you can get a girl spasming without taking her clothes off, getting under her clothes, or going below the belt... they'll spend time wondering what you could do to them without those restrictions. And every woman deserves a little excitement and mystery like that in their lives.

However, I recognize I'm pretty much a mutant here, so I don't expect it to be taken as advice for others. But for those with serious will, its a rather amusing way of doing things.

Now I could be wrong here and if I am please tell me. If you don't genuinely like the person for who they are, no relationship will come of any method. At that point you're pretty much interested in the person for sex or so I'd assume, and there's a term for that. It's called randomly hooking up and in general it's only for one night.
Um ... if you don't like the person, have no intention of building any sort of relationship with them, and are only interested in them for one night, what motivates you to even bother ... desperation???

Which makes it very useful that my interest in sex is merely as a pleasant benefit to certain relationship forms.

My ex never said she loved me until after she couldn't get any sex from me, my friend/fiance has never expressed any interest in me sexually, and the girl I'm currently with is still trying to decide if she hates me or loves me for refusing to have sex with her for the first year of our relationship (I usually hear both in the same night).

There's a hundred reasons why being unswayed by one's loins no matter the stimulus is an extremely useful ability. It's what helped me turn attempts at flings in to attempts at real, meaningful relationships with a promise of friendship if it fails.

Of course, it -is- important to do some naughty things with someone, even if you're not having sex, to make sure they know you do in fact find them desirable. It also teaches you useful tricks. When you can get a girl spasming without taking her clothes off, getting under her clothes, or going below the belt... they'll spend time wondering what you could do to them without those restrictions. And every woman deserves a little excitement and mystery like that in their lives.

However, I recognize I'm pretty much a mutant here, so I don't expect it to be taken as advice for others. But for those with serious will, its a rather amusing way of doing things.
Sounds rather manipulative to me. Sorry. :(

However, I recognize I'm pretty much a mutant here, so I don't expect it to be taken as advice for others. But for those with serious will, its a rather amusing way of doing things.

Incenjucarania, I guess this means there are two mutants on this thread since that is pretty much the way I work things. But I agree with you, this approach is rather unique and amusing. And it does drive a girl nuts. :D

I should clarify that I don't do things this way to be manipulative. I do it because I value other things over sex and I want to wait until a relationship has matured a little before taking things that far.

Well, it worked on me.

Sounds rather manipulative to me. Sorry. :(

There is such a thing as benevolent manipulation. Foreplay is manipulation.

I manipulate women in to knowing they're appreciated without having to grab a condom to prove it, while making sure they get plenty of endorphine rushes in the mean time. It would be more direct if saying, "I think you're sexy as hell and I fully intend to ravage you when the time comes." actually worked, but it doesn't. You have to -do- something so they know you want to ravage them eventually. I make a point of being honest about my manipulations. The lass I'm with now has been told, bluntly, that my doing fun, non-sex things with her is to prove I admire her bod and not JUST her mind.

I manipulate people in to being happy all the time, too. It's just that most people are much more selfish with their unearned charisma than I am.

*salutes Anacarthia*

Always good to know someone's fighting the good fight and respecting people's truth rather than their convulsive ability.

Incenjucarania, I guess this means there are two mutants on this thread since that is pretty much the way I work things. But I agree with you, this approach is rather unique and amusing. And it does drive a girl nuts. :D

I should clarify that I don't do things this way to be manipulative. I do it because I value other things over sex and I want to wait until a relationship has matured a little before taking things that far.
The two of you have admirable self-control. But with this comes the responsibility to not abuse it. You are 100% correct in saying that this approach can drive women to complete distraction, but also gives you a considerable degree of control over most women. The orgasm is the most powerful reward ever. Witholding it can induce a woman to do many things she might not otherwise do. It's a very similar technique to that used by "Doms" to increase the level of submission by "subs."

If these techniques are used to enhance pleasure for both parties, all well and good, but when used as a means of control they are psychological, emotional and sexual dynamite.

The two of you have admirable self-control. But with this comes the responsibility to not abuse it. You are 100% correct in saying that this approach can drive women to complete distraction, but also gives you a considerable degree of control over most women. The orgasm is the most powerful reward ever. Witholding it can induce a woman to do many things she might not otherwise do. It's a very similar technique to that used by "Doms" to increase the level of submission by "subs."

If these techniques are used to enhance pleasure for both parties, all well and good, but when used as a means of control they are psychological, emotional and sexual dynamite.

You know, I only started this thread because I was curious if anyone had pulled off the "friend" trick. (As I said, all the people I know in RL have experienced nothing but grief as described so well by the job analogy.)

It seems to have turned into a discussion of mind powers or something.

Well, it worked on me.

Having said that, I am now fucked in the head.

Having said that, I am now fucked in the head.

Unless there's someone you know on this thread and they realize it's you, I somehow fail to see how. Either that or I'm misinterpreting what you said.

The two of you have admirable self-control. But with this comes the responsibility to not abuse it. You are 100% correct in saying that this approach can drive women to complete distraction, but also gives you a considerable degree of control over most women. The orgasm is the most powerful reward ever. Witholding it can induce a woman to do many things she might not otherwise do. It's a very similar technique to that used by "Doms" to increase the level of submission by "subs."

If these techniques are used to enhance pleasure for both parties, all well and good, but when used as a means of control they are psychological, emotional and sexual dynamite.

Very true. Indeed, I've had my share of association with doms and subs both (there was a sub I knew online, for instance, who, for a time, I ... er.. helped relax.. which slowed her real life habits down a bit, and helped her get a little perspective on things. She told me I was a very good dom. Which creeped me out for like a week.). Oddly enough, I'm generally considered a 'sub' due to a variety of personality traits. I just know when to switch in to a more dominant role when needed or useful.

It's sadly true that this ability can be used to cause great harm. If it was in my nature, I could seriously screw up a decent number of young women. Thankfully, I choose not to (Indeed, the whole B/D thing makes me uneasy), so I am able to focus on "using my powers for good."

Alas, I can't pass on many details of what I've learned, because there's so few who can be trusted with it. Imagine if someone physically attractive (I've got a pot belly, for crying out loud) and evil got ahold of these skills... *shudders*

Like all power, its not to be abused. But when used properly, whoo baby. :fluffle:

You know, I only started this thread because I was curious if anyone had pulled off the "friend" trick. (As I said, all the people I know in RL have experienced nothing but grief as described so well by the job analogy.)

It seems to have turned into a discussion of mind powers or something.

Not mind powers, just a mixture of manipulative skill, empathy, will power, and patience that can lead to women pleading to you to do things to them.

And Torching Witches, I suggest porn or the like. Seriously. Decentralize the hormones. Overdose on something fully controlable, and the uncontrollable thing won't interest you.

Alas, I can't pass on many details of what I've learned, because there's so few who can be trusted with it. Imagine if someone physically attractive (I've got a pot belly, for crying out loud) and evil got ahold of these skills... *shudders*
Don't worry about it. Those techniques are already fairly common knowledge. The key to not being manipulative with this sort of thing is to make explicit to your partner exactly what will most likely happen when the two of you indulge in this sort of play, and give her "permission" to not "submit" to the techniques anytime she so desires. Technically, she always has this option, but as I indicated above, some personality types are highly susceptible to this sort of control.

In all fairness, I should point out that it's not just women who can be controlled in this manner. I speak primarily of women in these posts because I'm strictly heterosexual so my familiarity with how men react to these techniques is admittedly very limited.

Having said that, I am now fucked in the head.
Your partner must not have told you the effects of what the two of you were doing. :(

The key definitely is making sure that you don't manipulate someone. Personally, I wouldn't like someone if they didn't have their own will. Dating or marriage is a partnership, and conforming with that view I think that one's significant other should be an equal who you specifically don't try to control. In fact as I see things, the more you love someone the more you should encourage them to be be independent.

Don't worry about it. Those techniques are already fairly common knowledge. The key to not being manipulative with this sort of thing is to make explicit to your partner exactly what will most likely happen when the two of you indulge in this sort of play, and give her "permission" to not "submit" to the techniques anytime she so desires. Technically, she always has this option, but as I indicated above, some personality types are highly susceptible to this sort of control.

In all fairness, I should point out that it's not just women who can be controlled in this manner. I speak primarily of women in these posts because I'm strictly heterosexual so my familiarity with how men react to these techniques is admittedly very limited.

Some of them are, some of them aren't. It's like a lot of things, there's the obvious, and then there's the 'power techniques'. Much of the danger really comes, I feel, when people don't realize that they THEMSELVES are doing this. Being an accidental tease leads to nasty situations.

And true, men are, I wager, as easy to manipulate, but I try to avoid having men begging me to do them, personally, being quite straight. Besides, it tends to get uglier if you manipulate a guy More likely to react in an abusive manner, besides. Frustrated women can usually just get laid, frustrated men tend to break things. Besides, women make such interesting noises...

Some of them are, some of them aren't. It's like a lot of things, there's the obvious, and then there's the 'power techniques'. Much of the danger really comes, I feel, when people don't realize that they THEMSELVES are doing this. Being an accidental tease leads to nasty situations.
You mean "power techniques" like this progression?

1. Teach a woman to have multiple orgasms ( if she doesn't already know how)

2. Teach her how to have "spontaneous" orgasms ( again, if she doesn't already know how )

3. Teach her how to have an orgasm everytime you tell her to through operant conditioning ( link a special touch or phrase to orgasm by repetition )

4. Teach her to hold back her orgasm until you tell her to have one, with longer and longer waits each time, until she becomes ( or thinks she becomes ) unable to have one unless you tell her to

5. Refuse to "allow" her to have an orgasm until she does your bidding.

Somethng like that?

Hey, the friends thing is working for me right now ;)

Hey, the friends thing is working for me right now ;)
Great! Just make certain of your own motivation or it will most likely backfire on you! :)

You mean "power techniques" like this progression?

[Lots of naughty things]

Somethng like that?

No, that's a BDSM thing. I don't get involved in that BS unless my partner -seriously- wants it, and I'm certain I can avoid harming them in it. The sub gal I mentioned -had- to be told before she was capable of orgasm, and I considered that to be a serious pity. I could, easily, do something like this, but I'm an advocate of freedom, not control. The very idea that a person loses the ability to pleasure themselves without someone else's say so makes me ill. Increasing the range of ways a woman can orgasm is one thing, decreasing them is disgusting.

Making a woman orgasm at a word: Good. Making that the only way she can: Horribly bad.

I try to avoid any situation where my having a sore throat can ruin someone's ability to get off.

No, that's a BDSM thing. I don't get involved in that BS unless my partner -seriously- wants it, and I'm certain I can avoid harming them in it. The sub gal I mentioned -had- to be told before she was capable of orgasm, and I considered that to be a serious pity. I could, easily, do something like this, but I'm an advocate of freedom, not control. The very idea that a person loses the ability to pleasure themselves without someone else's say so makes me ill. Increasing the range of ways a woman can orgasm is one thing, decreasing them is disgusting.

Making a woman orgasm at a word: Good. Making that the only way she can: Horribly bad.

I try to avoid any situation where my having a sore throat can ruin someone's ability to get off.
Commendable. But I would still love to hear just what you consider to be those "power techniques." Care to enlighten me? :)

Commendable. But I would still love to hear just what you consider to be those "power techniques." Care to enlighten me? :)

While you seem to be benevolent, I really don't know you well enough to inform you. I mostly only explain that sort of thing to people whom I'm -doing- it to, besides, so they know what I'm doing. I've already explained to my lady friend, for instance, how I know about so many of her sensetive spots when I've only been with one other woman, and for such a short amount of time, without so much as a hint of research. (I'm actually fairly new to in-person manipulations of this sort. I'm somewhat afraid to consider what I'll be able to do once I have some practice, since I already have the present reactions...)

As I'm prone to say when in a teasing mood, you're not nearly naked enough for me to tell you. :D

While you seem to be benevolent, I really don't know you well enough to inform you. I mostly only explain that sort of thing to people whom I'm -doing- it to, besides, so they know what I'm doing. I've already explained to my lady friend, for instance, how I know about so many of her sensetive spots when I've only been with one other woman, and for such a short amount of time, without so much as a hint of research. (I'm actually fairly new to in-person manipulations of this sort. I'm somewhat afraid to consider what I'll be able to do once I have some practice, since I already have the present reactions...)

As I'm prone to say when in a teasing mood, you're not nearly naked enough for me to tell you. :D
ROFLMAO!!! Fair enough.

Sensing nerve ganglia requires a very deft touch and an accute ( primarily subconscious ) awareness of subtle cues. Some few people have this ability seemingly naturally, most must be taught.

ROFLMAO!!! Fair enough.

Sensing nerve ganglia requires a very deft touch and an accute ( primarily subconscious ) awareness of subtle cues. Some few people have this ability seemingly naturally, most must be taught.

Oh, its easier than that.

Blood is the answer. And that's all I'll say about it.

Your partner must not have told you the effects of what the two of you were doing. :(
Oh, it gets way more complicated than that. And the effects for her are far worse.

For those of you who do not know what this is, basically it entails becoming friends with someone (usually while they are dating someone else) in the hopes that they will get to know you and all your good qualities. Then one day, so the theory goes, they will realize that you are the right person for them and fall in love with you &ct.

Or, if they are dating when you begin said maneuver, when they break up with their current squeeze, they will turn to you for comfort and at that moment realize that you were the right one all along and fall in love with you then &ct.

Whatever the setup actually is, the whole idea is to become really good friends, and this will end up in people riding off into the sunset together, or something.

Now, I’ve seen people attempt this, but it invariably ends in some kind of angst ridden disaster. At best, the two in question end up maintaining a somewhat uncomfortable friendship that eventually goes no-where.

I realize however my sample size is limited and I may be wrong in my universal condemnation of this method, so in the interest of science I am putting up a poll to see how effective this whole thing is.


I think this comic sums it up nicely....

http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp02142004.gif

I'm curious. I want to know if anyone has ever managed to convert a long term friendship into a something else. I've never heard of such a thing really happening outside of TV.

not me personally but my cousin turned a long term friend into a husband

Oh, it gets way more complicated than that. And the effects for her are far worse.
I'm truly very sorry. Send me a telegram if you think I can help in any way. I'm a life coach and mediator/arbitrator in "real life."

I'm curious. I want to know if anyone has ever managed to convert a long term friendship into a something else. I've never heard of such a thing really happening outside of TV.


eh, story too detailed for a thread, but yeah -
first were really good friends, then it kinda developed from that, then went back to being friends. He'd still be the one i lean on if i need help or advice (and that part works both ways). the strange thing is that its not awkward, not even for a minute...

I think this comic sums it up nicely....

http://www.somethingpositive.net/arch/sp02142004.gif

Yeah, that's where the 'ass' theory goes in.

If you're friends with a gal SOLELY to get her to date you, you deserve a swift kick between the knees.

Oh, its easier than that.

Blood is the answer. And that's all I'll say about it.
Ok. I suspect I understand, but it's not necessary for you to elaborate further either way. Thank you! :)

Yeah, that's where the 'ass' theory goes in.

If you're friends with a gal SOLELY to get her to date you, you deserve a swift kick between the knees.
who said anything about date?
I though we were talking about casual sex?

I voted "I don't know", though I was mainly referring to the posts. The main problem is that may school is pretty small, and an "angst ridden disaster" won't do too well in that environment... Though everyone who posted I've already heard at least a little from, so perhaps I'll take heart in that.

Anywho, does anyone have any theories as to why this strategy would or would not work?

Well, if you *become* friends with the sole intention of going out with them eventually, and they find that out (either directly, or just by suspecting it for a while), the usual reaction is "ewwww, creepy".

Not a good basis for any relationship.

Yeah, that's where the 'ass' theory goes in.

If you're friends with a gal SOLELY to get her to date you, you deserve a swift kick between the knees.

*agrees emphatically*

who said anything about date?
I though we were talking about casual sex?
Yeah, I think the original post was a bit vague on that front. If you want to date them, you must like them, so why is wanting to be friends with them a bad thing. If you just want casual sex, however, then you don't really like them, and you're just a penis.

who said anything about date?
I though we were talking about casual sex?
Oh GROAN! ( Buries head in hands, quietly sobbing )

BTW: Where's the option on the poll "Yes I have seen it and no it fails miserably in the end most of the time"?

BTW: Where's the option on the poll "Yes I have seen it and no it fails miserably in the end most of the time"?
Not an option, apparently.

BTW: Where's the option on the poll "Yes I have seen it and no it fails miserably in the end most of the time"?
That woulda won hands down and spoilt all the devious guys dreams.

That woulda won hands down and spoilt all the devious guys dreams.
Hey! That doesn't sound very "demented" to ME! LOL!

Hey! That doesn't sound very "demented" to ME! LOL!
I'm demented part-time only. Otherwise I get lonely :D

I leave to do some work, and this happens. :mad:

Oh, its easier than that.

Blood is the answer. And that's all I'll say about it.


All I can say is though, that whatever yoda powers you may have, everyone I know is far to shallow and has a far too short attention span for them to work. :)

I'm demented part-time only. Otherwise I get lonely :D
:D

BTW: Where's the option on the poll "Yes I have seen it and no it fails miserably in the end most of the time"?

I think that fits very well in the first choice.

Women and men both generally know whether they want something sexual out of someone within the first 5 minutes of conversation with someone, sometimes within the first 5 seconds.

So, no, I don't feel the "friend" maneuver would cause results unless there was something hindering the development of something sexual that would go away with time (marriage (god forbid),boyfriend/girlfriend, parent).

Women and men both generally know whether they want something sexual out of someone within the first 5 minutes of conversation with someone, sometimes within the first 5 seconds.

Heh! Very true. Lots of men in particular can get one glimpse of a woman and know instantly that they would take her to bed in an instant, given the opportunity. :)

I leave to do some work, and this happens. :mad:




All I can say is though, that whatever yoda powers you may have, everyone I know is far to shallow and has a far too short attention span for them to work. :)

Heh. That's what the girl I'm with now thought, too.

She thought she'd drop me within a week of not getting any.

It's been a month, and just keeps getting better.

Heh. That's what the girl I'm with now thought, too.

She thought she'd drop me within a week of not getting any.

It's been a month, and just keeps getting better.
It must be nice to be so favorably impressed with your own skills. :D

It must be nice to be so favorably impressed with your own skills. :D

:D

Heh! Very true. Lots of men in particular can get one glimpse of a woman and know instantly that they would take her to bed in an instant, given the opportunity.

I'm pretty sure it goes both ways with the first glance thing, but women in general are more difficult to win over.

However, in my college town, a great deal of the girls here work harder than the guys.

Tried it once, ended VERY badly. Like attempted sucide badly for her.

I do not claim to be an expert at this kind of thing, but I have made some observations:

Friendship true and proper can develope into love and if it fails can return to friendship again.

A sexual relationship with someone has a much higher chance when ending of you both drifting apart.

If you become friends with a girl (I mean she considers you a true friend) just because you want to have sex with her and you do manage it; then be warned she probabily will want to remain friends after. If you just run off this will really upset her. I did this and I feel as guilty as hell about it.

Yeah, that's where the 'ass' theory goes in.

If you're friends with a gal SOLELY to get her to date you, you deserve a swift kick between the knees.

Well, YEAH. I mean, sure, it's working between my "friend ;)" and I, but I'd be happy even if we just stayed as friends. That alone is enough for me.

Feh, I have no idea if it works . . . all I know is that there are very few girls at my school who I would even consider using the "friend" method on.

Feh, I have no idea if it works . . . all I know is that there are very few girls at my school who I would even consider using the "friend" method on.
That alone should tell you something! :)

I can't recall ever making friends with a girl I wouldn't have/didn't want to have sex with.

I see no point in making friends with a girl unless you want sex with her. Unless you're a girl, in which case vice versa.

I see no point in making friends with a girl unless you want sex with her. Unless you're a girl, in which case vice versa.This is insanity!
I think this calls for a new poll: do you only make friends with people you want to sleep with?
I know I don't...and I seriously doubt most others do. Still, knowing if many other people (specifically boys) do, could be useful.

Well, as all my friends are male...

Re - Post 1: It works, and I have the marriage certificate and bouncing baby girl to prove it.